Love at the Margins, with Tom Crisp
Conversing with Mark Labberton
What are the implications of Jesus’s radical ethics of love and shalom? How far are Christ followers meant to go with the compassion and witness of the gospel? Philosopher Tom Crisp (Biola University) reflects on how a powerful religious experience transformed his academic career and personal faith. Once focused on metaphysics and abstract philosophy, Crisp was confronted in 2009 by the radical compassion of Jesus in the Gospels. That moment led him toward the Catholic Worker movement, the teachings of Dorothy Day, and ultimately, deep involvement in labour and immigrant justice through...
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When Willpower Isn’t Enough, with John Ortberg
Conversing with Mark Labberton
“Habit eats willpower for breakfast.” As the apostle Paul says in Romans 7, we do the evil we don’t want to do, and we don’t do the good we want to do. Pastor and author John Ortberg joins Mark Labberton on Conversing to discuss his latest book Steps: A Guide to Transforming Your Life When Willpower Isn’t Enough. Drawing on decades of pastoral ministry, the wisdom of the Twelve Steps, and the profound influence of Dallas Willard, Ortberg explores the limits of willpower, the gift of desperation, and the hope of genuine transformation. With humour, honesty, and depth, he reflects on...
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Black and Evangelical, with Vincent Bacote
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Who are the black evangelicals? How has contemporary evangelicalism reckoned with racial justice? Theologian Vincent Bacote joins Mark Labberton to discuss Black + Evangelical, a new documentary exploring the in-between experience of black Christians in white evangelical spaces. Bacote—professor of theology at Wheaton College and director of the Center for Applied Christian Ethics—shares his personal faith journey, early formation in the Navigators, growing racial consciousness, and decades-long engagement with questions of race, theology, and evangelical identity. Together, they work...
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Faithful Ecological Science, with Ben Lowe
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Conservationist and environmental advocate Ben Lowe discusses our ecological crisis, the role of Christian faith and spirituality, and how churches can respond with hope, action, and theological depth. He joins Mark Labberton for a grounded conversation on the intersection of faith, climate change, and the church’s role in ecological justice. As executive director of A Rocha USA, Lowe brings over two decades of experience in environmental biology, ethics, and faith-based conservation to explore how Christians can engage meaningfully with environmental crises. They move from scientific...
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Restoring a Credible Christian Witness, with Jemar Tisby and Nikki Toyama-Szeto
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Introducing Credible Witness, a new podcast produced by Mark Labberton and the Rethinking Church Initiative. In this episode of Conversing, Mark features the full premiere episode of Credible Witness, and is joined by host Nikki Toyama-Szeto and historian Jemar Tisby. Exploring how Christian witness to the gospel of Christ has become compromised—and what might restore its credibility. Reflecting on five years of candid, challenging conversation among diverse Christian leaders during the wake of George Floyd’s murder and rising Christian nationalism, the three discuss the soul-searching,...
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After the Fire, with Megan Katerjian, Kerwin Manning, and Mayra Macedo-Nolan
Conversing with Mark Labberton
In the aftermath of the devastating Eaton Canyon Fire in Altadena, California, three Pasadena community leaders—Mayra Macedo-Nolan, Pastor Kerwin Manning, and Megan Katerjian—join host Mark Labberton for a sobering and hopeful conversation on what it takes to rebuild homes, neighbourhoods, and lives. Together they discuss their personal losses, the long-term trauma facing their neighbours, the racial and economic disparities exposed by disaster, and how the church is rising to meet these challenges with grit, grace, and faith. Their stories illuminate how a community holds fast when the...
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The Church of the Future, with Kara Powell and Raymond Chang
Conversing with Mark Labberton
Are the best days of the church behind us? Or ahead? Kara Powell and Ray Chang join Mark Labberton to discuss Future-Focused Church: Reimagining Ministry to the Next Generation, co-authored with Jake Mulder. Drawing on extensive research, practical frameworks, and decades of leadership at Fuller Seminary and the TENx10 Collaboration, Powell and Chang map a path forward for the church—one rooted in relational discipleship, kingdom diversity, and tangible neighbour love. In a moment marked by disaffiliation, disillusionment, and institutional fragility, they offer a hopeful vision: churches...
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Gospel Music Genius, with Stephen Newby and Robert Darden
Conversing with Mark Labberton
With a B3 organ, a prophetic imagination, and a heart broken wide open by grace, gospel music legend Andraé Crouch (1942–2015) left an indelible mark on modern Christian worship music. In this episode, Stephen Newby and Robert Darden offer a sweeping yet intimate exploration of his life, spiritual vision, and genre-defining genius. Together with Mark Labberton, they discuss their new biography Soon and Very Soon: The Transformative Music and Ministry of Andraé Crouch. Through laughter, lament, and lyrical memory, Newby and Darden—both scholars at Baylor University and co-authors of the...
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Walking and Spirituality, with Cherie Harder
Conversing with Mark Labberton
During a moment of historic turbulence and Christian polarization, Trinity Forum president Cherie Harder stepped away from the political and spiritual vortex of Washington, DC, for a month-long pilgrimage on the Camino de Santiago—a.k.a. “the Camino” or “the Way.” In this episode, she reflects on the spiritual, emotional, and physical rhythms of pilgrimage as both counterpoint and counter-practice to the fracturing pressures of American civic and religious life. Together, she and Mark Labberton consider how such a posture of pilgrimage—marked by humility, presence, and...
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Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus, with Reggie Williams
Conversing with Mark Labberton
For Christians, morality is often set by our interpretation of Jesus. In this episode, Reggie Williams reflects on the moral urgency of resistance in the face of rising nationalisms and systemic racial injustice that persists. Reggie Williams is associate professor of black theology at Saint Louis University, and author of Bonhoeffer’s Black Jesus. Exploring the transformative and fraught legacy of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, he draws from Bonhoeffer’s encounter with black Christian faith in Harlem. He traces both the revolutionary promise and the colonial limits of Bonhoeffer’s...
info_outline"Listening is everything. Without listening, there’s no music, no art, no understanding—just noise.” (Charlie Peacock, from the episode)
Acclaimed musician, producer, podcaster, and author Charlie Peacock joins Mark Labberton to reflect on music, art, attention, listening, faith, and spirituality. From his groundbreaking work in pop music production (e.g., Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars), to his deep engagement with faith and mentorship, Charlie explores how attention shapes creativity, why making space for beauty is a spiritual discipline, and how a life of music can be an act of service. Through stories of artistic risk, collaboration, and calling, this conversation explores the rhythms of a flourishing life.
In this episode, they discuss:
Charlie’s new memoir, Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music
The communal nature of making and producing music
The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life
Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things
Hearing and visualizing music
The intersection of creativity, spirituality, and paying attention,
How listening transforms both art and relationships,
Life lessons from jazz, pop, and worship music production,
And the role of both sound and silence in artistic and spiritual life.
About Charlie Peacock
Charlie Peacock is a six-time Grammy Award–winning musician and producer, having produced Amy Grant, Switchfoot, the Civil Wars, and many more artists. A three-time recipient of the Gospel Music Association’s Producer of the Year Award, he’s named by Billboard’s Encyclopedia of Record Producers as one of the five hundred most important producers in popular music history. His latest book is Roots and Rhythm: A Life In Music, and you can listen to his podcast, Music & Meaning. For more information visit charliepeacock.com.
Episode Highlights
"If you’re not paying attention, you’re missing the song that’s already being sung around you."
"A mentor doesn’t hand you a map; they help you learn how to navigate."
"Faith and art are both about trust—trusting the unseen, the unfinished, and the uncertain."
"The hardest and best lesson for any artist: keep showing up and doing the work."
"Music isn’t just a product—it’s a means of connection, healing, and worship."
Show Notes
- Charlie Peacock, Roots & Rhythm
- Music and community
- The unsung music heroes from Charlie’s life
- Non-neutrality and the interdependence of all things
- Hearing and visualizing music
- Michael Polanyi tacit understandings
- Re-creation of the old into the dramatically new—e.g., Notre Dame Cathedral
- The joy of generational community
- Jazz: spirit, skill, and ability
- “That’s what I love about jazz improvisation. There was nothing and then there was something. Over and over again. … When you have those people in a room making music … it’s hard to go to sleep at night.”
- “I have been pursued by a loving Creator … God-haunted since I was a little boy.”
- “I wanted to know everything. … how, why, what, when … everything.”
- “Never once was there a moment when I was out of God’s grip.”
- Charlie Peacock’s Secret of Time: “God gives you time to be saved.”
- John Coltrane’s spiritual journey
- “250 people a night…”
- “I took the F-word out of two songs, and stopped taking 10% from the bar tab.”
- Hans Rookmaaker
- Inklings
- Time in England and the Netherlands, including time at L’Abri (run by Francis and Edith Schaeffer)
- “An artist and a follower of Jesus, and how those two could be congruent …”
- “Our death is life to life. The kingdom has already begun. We have been living it. And we will continue to live it.”
- “Playing with the entire history of music in your brain.”
- The Civil Wars: “We re-presented hyper-dynamics. … A lot of people have never heard that before. … It invites you in and lets you sit back.” (e.g., pianissimo to forte)
- Over-compressed music.
- “That lean in to the music is a part of your participation. … I’m committed to this music.”
- “I produced music in the ‘80s. I know how to ruin a record. … Big hair and big snare. … But really it had to do with technology.”
- Music in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s
- Neil Postman: “To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail.”
- “When I use this tool I have to make sure it doesn’t use me.”
- “My subtext is that this is a book about epistemology. … To say, ‘This is how I know what I know.’ It came through God, people, and place.”
- A worker-bee in the music business
- “Like a house with a party going on”
- Vocation, epistemology, and how an artists become who they are
Production Credits
Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.