VRTAC Manager Minute- Turning NRLI Research into Suggestions for Reform: A Fresh Look at the RSA-911

What if better data did not have to mean more paperwork?

In this episode of Manager Minute, Sarah Leonard from the South Carolina Commission for the Blind and Pamela Clayton-Johnson from Maryland DORS join Carol Pankow to talk about their National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute research on the RSA-911. Their project takes a hard look at the growing administrative burden of federal reporting and asks a timely question: Are we collecting the right data for the right reasons?

Sarah and Pamela discuss their recommendation to remove 71 data elements they believe exceed statutory requirements, while still maintaining accountability and protecting the integrity of VR data. The conversation also explores the importance of involving frontline staff, using data to improve services, and creating space for counselors to spend more time doing what matters most: helping individuals with disabilities achieve meaningful employment.

Tune in for a thoughtful, practical, and refreshingly candid conversation about smarter data, stronger services, and leadership that challenges the field to think differently.

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Full Transcript

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Sarah: That's kind of my whole philosophy of who I am as a person. I'm always looking for how we can do things better and questioning, like why we're doing things like, why are we reporting this? Why are we doing that? And so I think that kind of shows up in the paper.

Pamela: I think we chose to focus on streamlining the RSA nine over 11 report, because we recognize how much time and energy staff spend on administrative tasks and reporting requirements.

Sarah: Were spending all this time to report this data. It must be important. It must be being used somewhere. but, I am not seeing that for some of this.

Intro voice: Manager minute, brought to you by the Vocational Rehabilitation Technical Assistance Center. Conversations powered by VR. One manager at a time, one minute at a time. Here is your host, Carol Pankow.

Carol: Welcome to the Manager Minute. Today, we're joined by Sarah Leonard, planning and reporting director from South Carolina Commission for the Blind, and Pamela Clayton-Johnson, program manager for the Eligibility Unit at Maryland DORS. So how are you doing today, Sarah?

Sarah: Good. I'm doing great. How are you?

Carol: Awesome. And Pamela, how about you?

Pamela: I'm good. Enjoying all this rain that we had within the last week.

Carol: Oh, nice. Well, we're in a heat wave. I'm in Minnesota, and, boy, it's been smoking hot.

Sarah: It's been hot here.

Carol: So Sarah and Pamela recently published a cohort project through the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute that takes a thoughtful and timely look at the RSA 911. Their paper, Smarter Data, Better Outcomes, explores how reporting requirements have evolved over time, and the growing administrative burden on agencies, and what it would mean to streamline data collection in a way that would better support the core mission of vocational rehabilitation, which is helping individuals achieve employment and strengthening America's workforce. Their work raises important questions for the field about the balance between compliance, data, and outcomes, and offers practical ideas for rethinking how we can approach federal reporting moving forward. So let's dig in. So let's start with each of you. How did you get into vocational rehabilitation and what drew you to this work. And Pamela, I'm going to go to you first.

Pamela: Okay. My interest in vocational rehabilitation began in 1999, after one of my close friends sustained a gunshot wound and became a quadriplegic. He was no longer able to do the work he had done before, but he still had a strong desire to work and remain independent. I began to help him research for programs and resources that could support him. And during that process, I discovered the Division of Rehabilitation Services DORS. So that experience changed my life and inspired me to pursue a career helping individuals with disabilities achieve their goal and match their full potential. I later earned my graduate degree in adult Education with a minor in Rehabilitation counseling, which allowed me to combine my passion for education, advocacy and services to others.

Carol: That is an amazing story. You are the first person I've heard with like a story like that. And how is your friend doing today?

Pamela: He is doing great. He is living independently. He has services in place for him. It's been so many years and he is doing well and he's thriving. So oh.

Pamela: Yes.

Carol: He's lucky to have a friend like you. I think that's awesome.

Pamela: Yes.

Carol: Sarah, how about you?How'd you get involved in VR?

Sarah: My journey to VR is a recent one. I just started in VR in 2023, and I actually started my career as a public education teacher. And when I was looking to kind of make a career change, I was looking to kind of stay in the public service realm and ended up finding some job openings with the Commission for the blind and kind of my experience as an educator and everything. It just was kind of a natural fit. So I really enjoyed kind of the past three years now, and I'm excited for what's to come.

Carol: Very cool. I remember when you first started, I feel like it was longer ago than three years. Time passes really fast.

Sarah: It does.

Carol: You both participated in NRLI live, and I just want to know a little bit about what that experience was like. And how did it shape your thinking as an emerging leader? And Sarah, I'll ping you first on that.

Sarah: NRLI was an amazing experience and I learned so much from the staff from NRLI, but also just from connecting with so many VR professionals across the US. The way it's structured, you meet four times over the course of almost a year. And I think kind of as the year progresses, you are in different places in like kind of what you're doing at work. So when you come together each time as a group, you're kind of experiencing something different and everyone else kind of brings their own experiences and their different kind of situations currently occurring in their agencies to those conversations. So as like an emerging leader. It's just really helped me kind of see the bigger picture of VR on the national scale and how I kind of fit into that on the state level.

Carol: Yeah, I love that so much because you see people from start to end because I get to help participate, at least in one of the weeks with doing some of the training, but really seeing how kind of the light bulbs are going on for you guys with that whole bigger national picture. I think that's awesome.

Sarah: Yeah.

Pamela: Right.

Carol: How about you, Pamela?

Pamela: Well, participating in the National Rehabilitation Leadership Institute was a very rewarding and eye opening experience for me. It gave me the opportunity to connect with rehabilitation professionals across the country, and who all share the same passion for helping individuals with disabilities succeed. The experience helped shape my thinking as an emerging leader by teaching me the importance of collaboration, advocacy and being servant leadership. I learned that leadership is not just about managing people, it's about listening and supporting others, creating positive change of course, and making sure the voice of the people we serve are heard. The institute also encouraged me to think bigger about the future of vocational rehabilitation and the impact we have in helping individuals achieve independency, employment and a better quality of life. It strengthened my confidence as a leader, and it also reminded me that growth happens when you are willing to learn from others and step outside of your comfort zone, and being a part of the group really helped me step outside my comfort zone. So it was an amazing experience for me.

Carol: I love that, and I know they have that coaching component. And so you each get a like a mentor coach that is with you throughout the whole time. And that I just think adds an extra element, like a personal touch for you specifically and all of that. So it really is a great, great program. NRLI is about building leadership capacity and driving change. How did that show up in this project that you chose to take on? And I'll throw that to either of you.

Sarah: I mean, that's our whole project.

Pamela: right.

Sarah: Our whole goal was to kind of advocate for some changes in terms of reporting, specifically the 911. So I think that's kind of my whole philosophy of who I am as a person. I'm always looking for how we can do things better and questioning like why we're doing things like, why are we reporting this? Why are we doing that? And so I think that kind of shows up in the paper.

Carol: So what led you guys specifically to go after the RSA 911 for your project? I know you went through some iterations of different topics you were going to pick.

Pamela: Yes. I think we chose to focus on streamlining the RSA 911 report because we recognize how much time and energy staff spend on administrative tasks and reporting requirements. Our goal was basically to look at ways to reduce the burden, so vocational rehabilitation staff could spend more time focusing on what truly matters, which is helping individuals with disabilities prepare for, obtain and maintain employment. We wanted to help shift the focus to building America's workforce and improving outcomes for the people we serve. This project taught me that leadership is about identifying the challenges and working together to find solutions, and being willing to advocate for meaningful change that benefit both the staff and consumers. It also showed me the importance, of course, of innovation and thinking about how systems and processes can work more effectively while still meeting federal requirements. So we ponder over a lot of different topics, and this is the one that we end up with. So I'm happy with all that we did with this particular paper and all that I have learned in this process.

Carol: So Sarah, you specifically, I know have lived this burden of the RSA 911 every day. How would you describe it to other folks that may not understand? Like, what's the big deal about that?

Sarah: I think what people don't realize is how much that report really drives like agency processes, just like day to day. The data that we collect as VR agencies as a part of the intake process, the closure process, all of that that gets reported on the 911. And then for those who aren't kind of in it every day, kind of one of the biggest shocks when they start kind of looking at what is all involved, especially, I think Pamela did this. She went to her person in Maryland who oversees the 911 and asked to see kind of the whole data file that gets submitted up to RSA. And I think that's kind of what puts it into perspective. So for those that haven't seen that, there's a line for every single consumer at your agency who has an open case or was applying for services that quarter or who has closed within the past six quarters. And they stay on that report for those six quarters after they close. And for each of those participants, those individual people, there's a ton of columns of data that gets reported for each of those consumers. And those are the data elements of the 911.

And so for those that haven't seen that, I would really encourage them to just ask the person at their agency who is in charge of the 911 just to kind of it puts things in perspective. I think that all of those entries into the case management system, like all of that gets reported out in some sort of fashion on that 911. And so there's stuff that has to go on in the background too. Like our field staff, of course have to collect the data, but most agencies have a whole case management system team who kind of keeps their case management system running. And those data elements all have to be maintained with coding in the back of the system, so that it can get reported out correctly on that report. So there's field staff hours that go into this report. There's technical staff hours that go into this report. And then of course there's data collection that may be involved as well that has to go into the report. So that's a collaboration between technical and people in positions like myself, but then also the field staff to make corrections if those are needed on the 911. So.

Carol: And how many data elements are there exactly?

Sarah: Over 300. Yeah.

Pamela: Yes, it was over 300. And we understand how important that report is for the vocational rehabilitation industry. So we recognize that the counselors and employees spend a large amount of time entering and reviewing data, which can sometimes take away from the direct services to consumers. So we just wanted to explore ways to make the process more efficient.

Carol: Well, you guys make the point because you say in your paper the reporting requirements expanded beyond what's required in statute. And so why does that matter to the field right now?

Sarah: Well, it's just extra work. Like if we're going to expand the requirements beyond what is like actually legally required, there should be a reason for that. And some of these data elements that are beyond kind of legal requirements, you know, like with the rehab act and everything, some of those data elements, I don't see them being used by RSA. I don't see them being used by Congress in any way. So RSA puts out an annual report to Congress every year, and the amount of data that actually goes into that report is very small, compared to the over 300 data elements that are reported for each consumer at every VR agency in the country.

Pamela: And it just increased the workload for staffing agencies. You know, when reporting requirements continue to grow for the counselors and staff, they can spend more time focusing on paperwork instead of the data entry and working directly with the consumers and employees. You know, this can impact, of course, you know, the efficiency, staff morale and overall ability to provide timely services. So it's especially important because the VR agencies, which is us, are focused on helping build America's workforce by supporting individuals with disabilities in reaching their employment goals. So the field wants to make sure that the focus stays on serving people. That's the main goal, creating opportunities and improving employment outcomes, not becoming overwhelmed by administrative tasks, you know? So that was our main focus.

Carol: Yeah, I hear that a lot. You know, people are like, I'm just pushing paper now.

Pamela: Right?

Carol: I'm the data collector. Instead of having time to actually talk to the people. So was that like your biggest realization that all that data wasn't actually going into the reported to Congress?

Sarah: That was one of them for me. I think because I just would expect, if we're giving this data out, it would be being used in some sort of way. We're spending all this time to report this data. It must be important. It must be being used somewhere. But I'm not seeing that for some of this. When I kind of came to that realization, I was like, well, then why are we doing all this work? Why are we doing this to ourselves? Yeah, that for me, it was.

Pamela: Yeah, we still understand that equity and good data are important, but there also needs to be balanced so agencies can effectively carry out the mission and the best support the people that we serve. So that's our main focus. We want to make sure that we're providing, you know, services to consumers instead of spending a lot of time on paperwork and things that, you know, they're not even looking at or is not meaningful. So it's just like, we're just trying to focus on what matters and balance out the workload.

Carol: You did a really thorough job on being super specific on the data elements you recommended that got removed. I mean, it was like, I'm like, holy cow, because it was like you went through the whole entire directory and there were a lot, I don't even know how many, but how did you guys go about doing that to decide the elements that you were recommending to remove?

Sarah: We spent a lot of time reading the laws and the regulations. I read the Rehab Act and spent time kind of analyzing that to determine like, what is actually required by the Rehab Act for us to report on. And after doing that review, I came to the conclusion that these 71 data elements that we proposed in our paper. There's no kind of legal requirement for those to be reported in the way that they're currently asking us to report them.

Pamela: Right.

Sarah: So most of the data elements that we propose to remove are related to service provider type. And the Rehab Act stipulates that only aggregate data on the types of providers and agency uses needs to be reported in some sort of fashion, but it does not stipulate that it needs to be reported on an individual case level for each of the services every quarter, which is what we're essentially doing right now through the 911.

Pamela: And Sarah has so much experience because this is what she does every single day. So she was very, very helpful in teaching me about all the different data elements and what is used and things like that. So it was very informative. I had learned so much throughout the process when we were researching this paper and just trying to make sure that we're accurate on what we're reporting.

Carol: Yeah, I liked it because I felt like you guys were very thoughtful and you approached this in a really good way and did an extremely thorough job. I would think RSA would be super interested in what you did. Have you spoken to RSA and maybe if you did, like what was that conversation like? You're kind of calling their baby ugly, you know?

Pamela: We actually met with them. We met with Michael Quinn and he provided great insight and was very open to hearing our ideas and concerns regarding the RSA 911 report process. One of the biggest things that we learned was the importance of collaboration and having honest conversations about the challenges VR agencies face. It was encouraging also to hear that he believed our paper and research were realistic and thoughtfully developed. He also shared that his team will review our paper and take our recommendations into consideration, which showed us that there's value in bringing forth ideas that could improve processes within the vocational rehabilitation system. For me, it reinforced the idea that meaningful change starts with research, communication, and a willingness to work together to find practical solutions. Of course, that benefits both agencies and the individuals we serve. So meeting with his team was very informative and he was very realistic with the expectations and things like that. It was good.

Sarah: We actually met with him twice, so we met with him once while we were kind of developing the paper. And that's what really shaped kind of our approach to writing the paper and research that we did. He told us in a bit of a cryptic way. He told us that we needed to think inside the box first and then think outside of it. So he encouraged us to read the laws, read the regulations. So that's kind of what shaped our method to collecting all of the research and the knowledge that we needed in order to be able to propose these changes. And then just meeting with him and his team kind of after the paper was done, when we went to DC for the final session of NRLI, It was really encouraging because him and his team were really open to the recommendations that we were making. And also, they said it was like getting public comment before the public comment period. So as everyone knows, the RSA 911 is up for renewal and was recently posted for public comment through the OMB. So they, I think, genuinely are looking for feedback on their reports and things like that. And I would really encourage agencies to take advantage of the public comment period on these reports, not just on the 911, but on the RSA 17, the 15, all of those different reports that we have to do, because RSA genuinely, I think, wants our feedback and wants to know the burden that it's putting on agencies and our ideas for streamlining.

Carol: So I'm sure you're quoting this paper in the public comment, correct?

Pamela: Yes.

Sarah: Yes.

Carol: Yeah, that's great. Well, you both bring up a really good point about being able to like do the research and speak up because I have heard for years people complaining about the 911, but I have never seen anyone do the job that you two did to dig in deep, do your research, do all the homework, and I'm glad Michael steered you down that path. Like read the rehab act...

Pamela: right.

Carol: ...look at the things, what's required, and then going back and meticulously, like coming up with 71 data elements. Wasn't 78 or 69. You came up with 71. You go, these are the ones. We don't need them. And I think a lot of times in VR, we kind of complain about things, but we don't always bring it up to the source that could do something about it because they just hear us anecdotally like, oh, you know, it's too much. But what exactly and what exactly could be removed? I think you did the work. People are going to be super happy about this if you get some success with that.

Pamela: Yes.

Carol: So if your recommendations were implemented. What do you think would be the biggest shift agencies would feel in their day to day operations?

Pamela: I believe the biggest shift for VR agencies will feel is having more time and flexibility to focus on serving consumers, instead of spending so much time on administrative tasks and data entry. You know, counselors and staff will likely experience a reduction in paperwork as well and reporting burden, which could improve efficiency, reduce stress and allow more attention to be placed on counseling, job placement, employee engagement, and consumer support. I think agencies will still be able to collect important data and maintain accountability, because that's still important, but the process could become more streamlined and meaningful. The goal is not to remove the reporting, but to make sure the information being collected truly adds value and support that better outcomes. So overall, the biggest change will be shifting more time and energy back to the mission of vocational rehabilitation, which is helping individuals with disabilities prepared for, obtain and maintain meaningful employment while supporting America's workforce.

Sarah: I think as well, like we call for removing those 71 data elements, but we also call for RSA to take a genuine look at the number of burden hours through the Paperwork Reduction Act and determine a more accurate estimate of those hours. And then also, we call for them to explore some opportunities to develop some centralized federal databases and data sharing systems, so that information on other WIOA program involvement and things like post-exit wages and credential data, that data could be more easily obtained by agencies. So a lot of agencies right now, they have to kind of manage these individual agreements with these...

Carol: Right.

Pamela: Right.

Sarah: ...different entities to obtain some of this data. And so if we could in some way centralize that, so that whole process is easier. Agencies wouldn't have to kind of independently maintain these agreements with separate Agencies or organizations.

Pamela: Right.

Carol: Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting point. Thinking about that centralized data collection, I know like DDS, Pamela, you worked in that, you know,

Pamela: yes.

Carol: There is our centralized system. I used to manage DDS. And so thinking about kind of that nationwide database or whatever that you could possibly have. Now, I suppose people would say it's a little easier said than done, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. Was there any traction? Did you get to talk to Michael about that concept at all?

Sarah: We did, and his comments back were kind of similar to what you just said, that it's easier said than done. But, you know, we have things like the Swiss data right now for wages. So I think it could be done. It just wouldn't be, you know, at the snap of your fingers, it would take some time to develop those.

Carol: Well, you guys can be part of something like magnificently great. That could happen with your recommendations. I love it.

Pamela: Yes.

Carol: So stepping back as emerging leaders, what advice would you give others about like balancing compliance, data collection and achieving those real employment outcomes? What advice would you give agencies as they're facing all this?

Pamela: I would say that it's important to remember that compliance data collection and employment outcomes all matter, but the mission should always stay centered on the people we serve. Data reporting are important because they help show accountability, measure progress, and tell the story of the work being done. However, we have to be careful that the process does not become overwhelming, that it takes away from direct services and meaningful engagement with consumers. My advice would be to focus on balance, use data as a tool to improve services and outcomes, not just a task to complete. Encourage teamwork, open communication and innovation when looking at processes and systems. It is also important for leaders to listen to frontline staff because they often understand where the biggest challenges exist and most importantly, never lose sight of the ultimate goal, which is helping individuals with disabilities achieve independency, meaningful employment, and success in their lives.

Sarah: Pamela, I think you summed that up beautifully.

Pamela: Thank you.

Sarah: Yeah. I think my biggest advice to agencies is to start looking at your data and looking at your data with your front line workers who are in it every day and doing the job. They deserve to see that data and be involved in conversations surrounding that data. And it's a culture shift to kind of get your agency talking about that data, especially if you've not done it before. Some field staff, I'm sure, have never heard of the RSA 911 before in some agencies. So I think they deserve to be in those conversations and those conversations. I think it equips them to do their jobs more efficiently and effectively.

Carol: I think people get so exhausted. I feel like sometimes with the collection of the data and making sure it's accurate, and then you submit it. And then on the other end, I know when we go on and do TA and you ask people about like the data or the observations, this isn't everywhere, but I think sometimes it gets so exhausted by the process, you forget to, on the other end, actually like use it and take a look at what the data is telling you. And I love that you said, you know, to involve your frontline staff because there have been different times we have like, say we look at the data dashboards and we're doing a little training with an agency and we have the field staff in there. They've never seen any of it. They don't know where this goes. They just know they have to do this thing where they're collecting all this stuff and it goes to some mysterious place, but they have no idea what it says. And it really is the story of your agency that does get communicated to Congress. Otherwise, they don't have any way to know about the anecdotal, awesome, wonderful things that are happening and getting people into employment unless you have something you can share. So we don't want to fall down at the very last minute and go, okay, we did all the thing, but we're not letting anybody know internally about what's going on with our data and then making changes as a result of it. You know, when you see different trends or things happening, being able to go in and go like, hey, what's up? You guys and the frontline people are sometimes, well, not sometimes they are the best people to talk to. They see what's happening and it comes out in the data. And everybody's sitting in central office like, mm, what's going on in that region? Go talk to that region and find out what's happening.

Pamela: Exactly. The frontline staff, we need them. We need to get feedback from them because they are important in the decision making regarding things that, you know, the input and things like that for the different data elements. And I had a conversation with some of my staff because I work, you know, on the front line, just getting answers regarding, you know, different data entries at the time that they spend gathering information. So it was a lot of information that I learned. And just looking at the RSA 911 for the first time, it was overwhelming because I didn't even know all that information was being collected and used. So it was eye opening for me.

Carol: And bless her heart, she does it all day, every day, I know. Are you sure you're happy you left public to do this?

Sarah: And I think talking with our field staff about like the 911 data, for instance, like that, like just like NRLI, how we kind of came to this realization of how we fit into this bigger kind of national picture. I think for our staff, having conversations around our data and things like that can help them see that as well.

Carol: Yeah. That's cool. So one last thing for you all. What about a little plug for NRLI, is there any like if we have listeners out there going like, what's this thing you all participated in? Do you have any kind of little plug you want to tell them about why they should do that program?

Pamela: It was a leadership program, a leadership program where all people from all over the world, different walks in their career path participated. And I learned so much from people networking in itself. We still stay in contact, and their system sometimes may be a little different from how we do our things in Maryland. But just being around those folks that we are passionate about, the vocational rehabilitation process was just amazing and very fulfilling for me, and I think it will be an amazing experience for anyone that wants to be a part of this career path to participate. It was an awesome experience for me.

Carol: I love that.

Sarah: I really appreciated how, I guess intentional the whole entire experience like is designed like. So I think it's really intentional that it happens over the course of like basically a whole year. And then the different sessions or each week has kind of like a different almost like theme, I guess, or concept that you're learning that week. And then by the time you get to the final session in DC, it's kind of the culmination of everything that you've learned. But since time has passed and it's not just kind of like a one and  done thing, you have also kind of matured in your career. At least that's kind of how I felt as I went through it. I also started supervising two new people during that time period. So it was all very relevant and very, I guess, eye opening. But then also there's something I think, really important about it being a leadership program that's also in the lens of VR, right? Like there's tons of leadership programs out there, but they're not kind of tailored towards being a leader in VR. And so I think that's what makes NRLI so unique and different.

Pamela: Most definitely.

Carol: Yeah, I've seen over time, you know, those cohorts, you make those networks of friends, you guys have, you know, chat groups and all different things and getting together when you're at a conference or, you know, just people to call on and get ideas. If you run into trouble at your agency. You're like, oh, I'm gonna pick up the phone, I'm calling Pamela now, or I'm calling Sarah because they might have a different perspective on that. And I just love that transplanting of ideas across the country. There's such great benefit in that. I'm so glad you guys had a great experience.

Pamela: I did, it was amazing.

Carol: Thank you both today for this conversation. I'm expecting great things from your paper. I'm really hoping that it is the start of some cool changes. And thank you for joining me. Appreciate you both.

Sarah: Thank you.

Pamela: Thank you so much.

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Outro Voice: Conversations powered by VR, one manager at a time. One minute at a time. Brought to you by the VRTAC. Catch all of our podcast episodes by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening.