What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power
Everyday Conversations on Race
Release Date: 06/21/2025
What Happens When You Don’t Belong
Everyday Conversations on Race
Episode Summary , sociologist, conflict mediator, restorative justice practitioner, and author, joins Simma for a thoughtful conversation about identity, belonging, and communicating across differences. Growing up biracial (half Black, half white) as the youngest of 13 siblings, Angela learned firsthand what it means to feel like an outsider. Those experiences shaped her work in diversity, equity, inclusion, restorative justice, and creating genuine belonging. Together they discuss why belonging is the missing piece in DEI, how microaggressions can become harassment, why calling people in is...
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The 29% Problem: Steve Phillips on Race and Power
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman sits down with Steve Phillips — national political leader, three-time author, Guardian and New York Times contributor, and founder of Democracy in Color. His latest book is Are White Men Smarter Than Everybody Else? Playing Offense in the Fight for Racial Justice in America (his latest) Key concepts discussed: SWAMP — Straight White American Male Preference: a framework to reframe the equality debate and expose overrepresentation of white men (29% of the population, yet dominant in every power structure) SWAMP...
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Dion Lim: The Anti-Asian Hate Story America Forgot
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this powerful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma the Inclusionist sits down with Emmy award-winning journalist and author Dion Lim to confront a question too many are avoiding: "Why has the conversation about anti-Asian hate gone silent"? Dion takes us behind the headline-making DM that changed her career — an anonymous video of an elderly Asian man being brutally beaten in San Francisco — and reveals what it took to bring stories like his to light when her own newsroom resisted. From the murder of Vincent Chin to COVID-era scapegoating, she traces the deep...
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Frank Carbajal on Latino Leadership: From Migrant Farmworker Son to Silicon Valley Voice
Everyday Conversations on Race
Frank Carbajal grew up the son of Mexican migrant farmworkers in California's Imperial Valley, where summer temperatures hit 115 degrees and his mother worked the fields through her third trimester. Today he's the founder and president of Es Tiempo LLC, a co-author of three books on Latino leadership, founder of the Silicon Valley Latino Leadership Summit at Stanford University, and a former keynote speaker in Ken Blanchard's network. In this conversation with Simma, Frank talks about what it actually means to be Latino in America today — and why that word doesn't fit everyone who could...
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Dr. Gina Paige on African Ancestry: How DNA Reconnects Black Americans to Their African Roots
Everyday Conversations on Race
For most Black Americans, the family tree stops at a wall built by slavery. Dr. Gina Paige co-founded African Ancestry to tear down that wall. In this episode, she explains how her company uses DNA to trace Black people back to specific African countries and ethnic groups — not vague regions, not percentages, but actual present-day nations and peoples. Gina walks Simma through the science in plain language, explains why African Ancestry gets results other DNA companies can't, and talks about what happens inside people when they finally know where they come from. She also addresses the...
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From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead
Everyday Conversations on Race
Simma Lieberman and Elmer Dixon go back over 50 years — she was in the Young Patriots, he was co-founding the first Black Panther Party chapter outside California. In this conversation, they cut through the lies, revisionist history, and current attacks on DEI to talk about what the Black Panther Party actually stood for, why erasing Black history will never work, and what it takes to stay courageous when the political winds turn ugly. Elmer shares what it was like to transition from revolutionary to corporate diversity consultant, corrects the record on the myths about the Panthers, and...
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Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas
Everyday Conversations on Race
Carole Copeland Thomas has been black all her life — and she's spent decades making sure that means something in every room she walks into. Born in a Black hospital in Detroit during segregation, raised in a middle-class family where college was expected and Black excellence was the air she breathed. Carole became a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) who helps organizations turn complex challenges into real action. In this conversation, Carole and Simma go deep — on race, history, identity, the current political moment, and what all of us need to do right now. They talk about why...
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What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman’s Story?
Everyday Conversations on Race
What happens when two neighbors—one Black, one white—move beyond small talk and start sharing their real stories? In this episode, Simma talks with Sandra Eggleston and Bill Byrne, whose unlikely friendship led to the book MLK to Brother Ray: A Woman’s Adventure of Social Transformation, Political Revolution, and Personal Affirmation. Sandra spent four decades as a United Airlines flight attendant during a time when the U.S. was being reshaped by the Civil Rights Movement and the Women’s Movement. Along the way she met cultural icons, witnessed historic events, and navigated racism...
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Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of , host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of , former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America. Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today. She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of...
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Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?
Everyday Conversations on Race
From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship? In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O’Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women’s circle I’m part of that’s been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy. We talk...
info_outlineHow Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it.
They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between performative allyship and real connection, and the need for inclusive institutional change—especially when that change is under attack. Together, they break down the core themes from Susan’s book What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions.
You’ll hear stories of personal transformation, resistance against performative politics, and lessons in building multiracial and multigenerational coalitions. Whether you're an advocate, educator, or someone struggling with how to take meaningful action, this conversation is for you.
Timestamps:
1:10 – Why these conversations matter now more than ever
3:45 – Meet Professor Susan Sturm and Richard Gray
8:10 – How Susan and Richard met and started collaborating
14:30 – Real friendship across race: beyond credentials
20:10 – Susan on being a white person who “meant well” but needed to unlearn
26:45 – Richard on redefining what it means to be a lawyer for social justice
33:00 – "Hanging out while white" — how not to be awkward or performative
36:20 – What What Might Be really means, and how to act in paradox
43:00 – Institutions, white comfort, and what transformation should look like
52:00 – Micro-spaces of justice: how change happens when the law falls short
59:40 – What each of us can do now (no matter who we are)
Guest Information:
Susan Sturm is the George M. Jaffin Professor of Law & Social Responsibility at Columbia Law School and the Founding Director of the Center for Institutional and Social Change.
Her new book, What Might Be: Confronting Racism to Transform Our Institutions, explores the paradoxes built into anti-racism work and how to turn them into drivers of learning and change. It provides strategies for staying engaged in this work amidst the challenging conditions we now face.
Richard Gray serves as director of AISR’s Community Organizing & Engagement team. His work includes providing strategic support on community organizing and engagement to community and school reform organizations in cities across the country.
He also directs AISR’s Center for Education Organizing, which helps expand the power of education organizing through building strategic alliances among organizations and with strategic partners such as teachers’ unions, reform support organizations, civil rights organizations, and research and policy institutes.
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Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.
Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.
Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information
Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)
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