What Happens When You Don’t Belong
Everyday Conversations on Race
Episode Summary , sociologist, conflict mediator, restorative justice practitioner, and author, joins Simma for a thoughtful conversation about identity, belonging, and communicating across differences. Growing up biracial (half Black, half white) as the youngest of 13 siblings, Angela learned firsthand what it means to feel like an outsider. Those experiences shaped her work in diversity, equity, inclusion, restorative justice, and creating genuine belonging. Together they discuss why belonging is the missing piece in DEI, how microaggressions can become harassment, why calling people in is...
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The 29% Problem: Steve Phillips on Race and Power
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman sits down with Steve Phillips — national political leader, three-time author, Guardian and New York Times contributor, and founder of Democracy in Color. His latest book is Are White Men Smarter Than Everybody Else? Playing Offense in the Fight for Racial Justice in America (his latest) Key concepts discussed: SWAMP — Straight White American Male Preference: a framework to reframe the equality debate and expose overrepresentation of white men (29% of the population, yet dominant in every power structure) SWAMP...
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Dion Lim: The Anti-Asian Hate Story America Forgot
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this powerful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma the Inclusionist sits down with Emmy award-winning journalist and author Dion Lim to confront a question too many are avoiding: "Why has the conversation about anti-Asian hate gone silent"? Dion takes us behind the headline-making DM that changed her career — an anonymous video of an elderly Asian man being brutally beaten in San Francisco — and reveals what it took to bring stories like his to light when her own newsroom resisted. From the murder of Vincent Chin to COVID-era scapegoating, she traces the deep...
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Frank Carbajal on Latino Leadership: From Migrant Farmworker Son to Silicon Valley Voice
Everyday Conversations on Race
Frank Carbajal grew up the son of Mexican migrant farmworkers in California's Imperial Valley, where summer temperatures hit 115 degrees and his mother worked the fields through her third trimester. Today he's the founder and president of Es Tiempo LLC, a co-author of three books on Latino leadership, founder of the Silicon Valley Latino Leadership Summit at Stanford University, and a former keynote speaker in Ken Blanchard's network. In this conversation with Simma, Frank talks about what it actually means to be Latino in America today — and why that word doesn't fit everyone who could...
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Dr. Gina Paige on African Ancestry: How DNA Reconnects Black Americans to Their African Roots
Everyday Conversations on Race
For most Black Americans, the family tree stops at a wall built by slavery. Dr. Gina Paige co-founded African Ancestry to tear down that wall. In this episode, she explains how her company uses DNA to trace Black people back to specific African countries and ethnic groups — not vague regions, not percentages, but actual present-day nations and peoples. Gina walks Simma through the science in plain language, explains why African Ancestry gets results other DNA companies can't, and talks about what happens inside people when they finally know where they come from. She also addresses the...
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From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead
Everyday Conversations on Race
Simma Lieberman and Elmer Dixon go back over 50 years — she was in the Young Patriots, he was co-founding the first Black Panther Party chapter outside California. In this conversation, they cut through the lies, revisionist history, and current attacks on DEI to talk about what the Black Panther Party actually stood for, why erasing Black history will never work, and what it takes to stay courageous when the political winds turn ugly. Elmer shares what it was like to transition from revolutionary to corporate diversity consultant, corrects the record on the myths about the Panthers, and...
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Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas
Everyday Conversations on Race
Carole Copeland Thomas has been black all her life — and she's spent decades making sure that means something in every room she walks into. Born in a Black hospital in Detroit during segregation, raised in a middle-class family where college was expected and Black excellence was the air she breathed. Carole became a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) who helps organizations turn complex challenges into real action. In this conversation, Carole and Simma go deep — on race, history, identity, the current political moment, and what all of us need to do right now. They talk about why...
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What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman’s Story?
Everyday Conversations on Race
What happens when two neighbors—one Black, one white—move beyond small talk and start sharing their real stories? In this episode, Simma talks with Sandra Eggleston and Bill Byrne, whose unlikely friendship led to the book MLK to Brother Ray: A Woman’s Adventure of Social Transformation, Political Revolution, and Personal Affirmation. Sandra spent four decades as a United Airlines flight attendant during a time when the U.S. was being reshaped by the Civil Rights Movement and the Women’s Movement. Along the way she met cultural icons, witnessed historic events, and navigated racism...
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Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of , host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of , former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America. Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today. She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of...
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Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?
Everyday Conversations on Race
From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship? In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O’Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women’s circle I’m part of that’s been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy. We talk...
info_outlineIn this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of Equal Justice Works, former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America.
Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today.
She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of being “different” and highlighted how segregated many of our lives still are. Even today, she encounters moments when someone tells her she is the first Black person they’ve had a meaningful conversation with—evidence of how separation persists.
As CEO of Equal Justice Works—the nation’s largest postgraduate public-interest legal fellowship program—Verna works to address a staggering reality: 92% of low-income people’s civil legal needs go unmet. She explains how civil legal problems such as eviction, wage garnishment, loss of benefits, and family instability create economic insecurity and can even lead to involvement in the criminal legal system. Unlike criminal cases, there is no guaranteed right to counsel in high-stakes civil matters, leaving millions to navigate life-altering situations alone.
Verna describes how Equal Justice Works partners with law firms, corporations, and foundations to fund fellowships that send lawyers into underserved communities. She highlights the organization’s Disaster Resilience Program, created after Hurricane Katrina, which helps communities navigate FEMA claims, insurance issues, document replacement, and preparedness planning.
She also shares her personal journey—from broadcast journalism to law—motivated by fairness and shaped by the civil rights and women’s rights movements. Her career has included work on voting rights, women’s rights, veterans’ benefits, and debt collection reform. She also argued—and won—a 5–4 U.S. Supreme Court case establishing that schools must address known student-on-student sexual harassment under Title IX.
The conversation explores immigration representation, reports of ICE detentions at court hearings, and practical ways non-lawyers can help—through translation, court accompaniment, and local volunteer efforts. Verna encourages listeners to stay informed through reputable sources, vote, and engage locally in school boards and city councils.
She also shares personal reflections on music and film—and clarifies her role as Michelle Obama’s oral historian during the early White House years, after the two were law school classmates.
This episode connects race, law, and economic justice—and offers clear examples of how everyday engagement can strengthen democracy.
Time Stamps
00:00 Welcome to Race Convo: Why These Conversations Matter
00:58 Meet Verna Williams + The Big Question: Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
02:16 Race as a Social Hierarchy: How History Still Shapes Today
03:54 Growing Up Integrated: Verna’s Schools, Identity, and Feeling ‘Different’
05:15 Segregation in Real Life: ‘First Black Person I’ve Talked To’ + Why the Podcast Exists
08:04 What Equal Justice Works Does: Closing the Civil Legal Help Gap
09:52 Why Verna Chose Justice Work: Early Racism, Fairness, and Civil Rights Roots
12:29 Civil vs. Criminal: The Hidden Crisis of No Right to Counsel
17:50 How Equal Justice Works Operates: Fellowships, Funding, and Disaster Resilience
21:00 Verna’s Career Path + Arguing a Landmark Title IX Case at the Supreme Court
25:42 Keeping Progress Moving Forward: Training the Next Generation of Public Interest Leaders
26:30 Making Public Interest Careers Possible: Loan Forgiveness & Funding Support
27:31 Why This Work Matters: Building Leaders Through Equal Justice Works
28:46 Training for Empathy: Community-Led Lawyering & Fellow Learning Networks
30:16 Immigrant Justice on the Front Lines: Asylum, ICE at Court & Finding Hope
32:28 How Non-Lawyers Can Help: Volunteering, Translating & Getting Involved
34:11 Where to Plug In: EJW, Legal Services Corp & Other Advocacy Orgs
37:11 Staying Hopeful: History, Collective Action & Cross-Political Coalitions
43:51 Michelle Obama Connection: Serving as Her Oral Historian
45:26 Rapid-Fire Fun: Playlists, Oscar Movies & What to Watch Next
47:43 Final Call to Action: Get Informed, Vote Local & Show Up
Guest Bio
Verna L. Williams (she/her) is the CEO of Equal Justice Works. In her role as CEO, Verna has continued to advance the mission of Equal Justice Works to create opportunities for leaders to transform their passion for equal justice into a lifelong commitment to public service.
Verna brings with her an extensive background of experience teaching and practicing law, as well as researching civil and women’s rights. Verna previously served as the dean of the University of Cincinnati College of Law, where she was a professor prior to becoming dean, and taught courses on family law, gender discrimination, and constitutional law. Additionally, she founded and co-directed the Judge Nathaniel Jones Center for Race, Gender, and Social Justice at the University of Cincinnati.
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Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.
Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.
Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information
Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)
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