Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of , host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of , former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America. Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today. She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of...
info_outline
Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?
Everyday Conversations on Race
From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship? In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O’Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women’s circle I’m part of that’s been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy. We talk...
info_outline
What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track?
Everyday Conversations on Race
A Conversation with Joe Santana; a DEI original Would you agree that most conversations about DEI today sound loud, polarized, and disconnected from the work itself? In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, I talk with Joe Santana—advisor, author, and long-time DEI consultant—about where Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion actually came from and how it was originally practiced inside organizations. What really is DEI, (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion)? Joe and I have both spent decades doing this work. We’ve watched DEI evolve, get renamed, repackaged, misunderstood, and in some...
info_outline
Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham
Everyday Conversations on Race
What happens when curiosity replaces fear? In this powerful and honest conversation, Simma Lieberman and Dr. Julie Pham, author of "7 Forms of Respect: A Guide to Transforming Your Communication and Relationships at Work", explore how curiosity helps us talk about race, identity, and respect without shame or defensiveness. They remind us that inclusion begins with wonder—and that respect isn’t fixed, it’s alive. Simma and Dr. Julie Pham dive into the idea of curiosity as a practice—a mindset we can bring to every interaction. They discuss how we each hold multiple identities, why...
info_outline
Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America
Everyday Conversations on Race
Join Simma, the Inclusionist, as she hosts an illuminating conversation with Dr. Nneka and Dr. Angela, two Nigerian-born, U.S.-based doctors and authors. They discuss their empowering book, '' which chronicles challenges and triumphs faced by African women immigrants. Delve into personal anecdotes of overcoming adversity, the significance of community, cultural impact, and the importance of recognizing self-worth. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in bridging cultural divides and celebrating resilience. 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview 01:09 Meet the Guests:...
info_outline
Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra
Everyday Conversations on Race
How do we close the health gap in Black communities? In this episode, Simma Lieberman (“The Inclusionist”) talks with bEHR Health founder Kwame Terra about the urgent need for health equity, the power of community, and the real stories behind the statistics. From breaking world records to building a movement, this conversation will challenge, inspire, and empower you. Timestamps & Key Segments:00:00 – Introduction: Why Black Health Matters 02:15 – Meet Kwame Terra: From Runner to Health Equity Leader 07:30 – The Shocking Truth About Health Disparities 15:00 – bEHR Health:...
info_outline
What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power
Everyday Conversations on Race
How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it. They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between...
info_outline
Global DEI: Apartheid to Equity
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, is joined by two incredible global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion experts: Michaël Stuber, the European DEI Engineer, and Nene Molefi, founder of Mandate Molefi HR Consultants in South Africa. While the focus of this episode is on the global Diversity, Equity and Inclusion landscape, it’s also a deeply personal conversation about their journeys, the challenges they’ve faced, and how their backgrounds have shaped their approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion. As we explore how Diversity, Equity...
info_outline
Navigating Race, Mental Health and Well-being in Corporate America
Everyday Conversations on Race
How can Black professionals address the mental, physical and emotional toll of success in corporate America? Join Simma Lieberman, the Inclusionist, in this insightful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race with guests Shaniqua McClendon and Justin Grant. Shaniqua, VP of Politics at Crooked Media, and Justin, an executive at JP Morgan Chase, share their personal stories and experiences about the significance of discussing race in society and corporate environments. They also delve into the intricacies of mental, physical and emotional health, especially for Black individuals in corporate...
info_outline
How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring
Everyday Conversations on Race
Have you ever felt challenged or questioned because of your race? In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman welcomes Shari Dunn, author of Qualified: How Competency Checking and Race Collide at Work. Explore how race affects perceptions of competence and the real-world impacts of systemic racism in the workplace. You'll understand how racist competency checks can impede merit-based hiring. With personal anecdotes and historical insights, Shari Dunn sheds light on how people of color, especially Black women, face unfair scrutiny and bias in their...
info_outlineIn this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of Equal Justice Works, former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America.
Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today.
She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of being “different” and highlighted how segregated many of our lives still are. Even today, she encounters moments when someone tells her she is the first Black person they’ve had a meaningful conversation with—evidence of how separation persists.
As CEO of Equal Justice Works—the nation’s largest postgraduate public-interest legal fellowship program—Verna works to address a staggering reality: 92% of low-income people’s civil legal needs go unmet. She explains how civil legal problems such as eviction, wage garnishment, loss of benefits, and family instability create economic insecurity and can even lead to involvement in the criminal legal system. Unlike criminal cases, there is no guaranteed right to counsel in high-stakes civil matters, leaving millions to navigate life-altering situations alone.
Verna describes how Equal Justice Works partners with law firms, corporations, and foundations to fund fellowships that send lawyers into underserved communities. She highlights the organization’s Disaster Resilience Program, created after Hurricane Katrina, which helps communities navigate FEMA claims, insurance issues, document replacement, and preparedness planning.
She also shares her personal journey—from broadcast journalism to law—motivated by fairness and shaped by the civil rights and women’s rights movements. Her career has included work on voting rights, women’s rights, veterans’ benefits, and debt collection reform. She also argued—and won—a 5–4 U.S. Supreme Court case establishing that schools must address known student-on-student sexual harassment under Title IX.
The conversation explores immigration representation, reports of ICE detentions at court hearings, and practical ways non-lawyers can help—through translation, court accompaniment, and local volunteer efforts. Verna encourages listeners to stay informed through reputable sources, vote, and engage locally in school boards and city councils.
She also shares personal reflections on music and film—and clarifies her role as Michelle Obama’s oral historian during the early White House years, after the two were law school classmates.
This episode connects race, law, and economic justice—and offers clear examples of how everyday engagement can strengthen democracy.
Time Stamps
00:00 Welcome to Race Convo: Why These Conversations Matter
00:58 Meet Verna Williams + The Big Question: Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
02:16 Race as a Social Hierarchy: How History Still Shapes Today
03:54 Growing Up Integrated: Verna’s Schools, Identity, and Feeling ‘Different’
05:15 Segregation in Real Life: ‘First Black Person I’ve Talked To’ + Why the Podcast Exists
08:04 What Equal Justice Works Does: Closing the Civil Legal Help Gap
09:52 Why Verna Chose Justice Work: Early Racism, Fairness, and Civil Rights Roots
12:29 Civil vs. Criminal: The Hidden Crisis of No Right to Counsel
17:50 How Equal Justice Works Operates: Fellowships, Funding, and Disaster Resilience
21:00 Verna’s Career Path + Arguing a Landmark Title IX Case at the Supreme Court
25:42 Keeping Progress Moving Forward: Training the Next Generation of Public Interest Leaders
26:30 Making Public Interest Careers Possible: Loan Forgiveness & Funding Support
27:31 Why This Work Matters: Building Leaders Through Equal Justice Works
28:46 Training for Empathy: Community-Led Lawyering & Fellow Learning Networks
30:16 Immigrant Justice on the Front Lines: Asylum, ICE at Court & Finding Hope
32:28 How Non-Lawyers Can Help: Volunteering, Translating & Getting Involved
34:11 Where to Plug In: EJW, Legal Services Corp & Other Advocacy Orgs
37:11 Staying Hopeful: History, Collective Action & Cross-Political Coalitions
43:51 Michelle Obama Connection: Serving as Her Oral Historian
45:26 Rapid-Fire Fun: Playlists, Oscar Movies & What to Watch Next
47:43 Final Call to Action: Get Informed, Vote Local & Show Up
Guest Bio
Verna L. Williams (she/her) is the CEO of Equal Justice Works. In her role as CEO, Verna has continued to advance the mission of Equal Justice Works to create opportunities for leaders to transform their passion for equal justice into a lifelong commitment to public service.
Verna brings with her an extensive background of experience teaching and practicing law, as well as researching civil and women’s rights. Verna previously served as the dean of the University of Cincinnati College of Law, where she was a professor prior to becoming dean, and taught courses on family law, gender discrimination, and constitutional law. Additionally, she founded and co-directed the Judge Nathaniel Jones Center for Race, Gender, and Social Justice at the University of Cincinnati.
Click here to DONATE and support our podcast
All donations are tax deductible through Fractured Atlas.
Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.
Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.
Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information
Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)
Connect with me:
Instagram
Facebook
YouTube
Twitter
LinkedIn
Tiktok
Website
Previous Episodes