Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham
Everyday Conversations on Race
Release Date: 10/19/2025
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info_outlineWhat happens when curiosity replaces fear? In this powerful and honest conversation, Simma Lieberman and Dr. Julie Pham, author of " explore how curiosity helps us talk about race, identity, and respect without shame or defensiveness. They remind us that inclusion begins with wonder—and that respect isn’t fixed, it’s alive.
Simma and Dr. Julie Pham dive into the idea of curiosity as a practice—a mindset we can bring to every interaction. They discuss how we each hold multiple identities, why respect feels different to everyone, and how the “rubber band rule” teaches self-awareness and boundaries. Together, they model how curiosity—not cancellation—creates space for growth, empathy, and laughter.
Dr. Pham shares her journey from running her family’s Vietnamese newspaper in Seattle to becoming an expert on curiosity-based inclusion. Simma reflects on her experiences as a Bronx-raised Jewish woman building bridges across race and culture. Their exchange reminds listeners that real connection begins when we listen to understand, not to judge.
[00:10:00 — The Practice of Curiosity]
Julie describes curiosity as a practice, not a trait, requiring awareness and humility. They discuss how fear of being wrong blocks learning and how curiosity turns awkward moments into opportunities for respect.
[00:15:00 — Respect as Relationship, Not Rule]
They unpack how “respect” looks different across people and cultures. Julie introduces her framework from Seven Forms of Respect and shares how she helps organizations talk openly about what respect means to them.
[00:20:00 — Cultural Assumptions and Adaptation]
Simma and Julie discuss regional and cultural communication styles—New York directness vs. West Coast politeness—and how adapting behavior is a form of respect, not inauthenticity.
[00:25:00 — Curiosity vs. Cancel Culture]
Simma raises the issue of “you should know” attitudes in DEI work. Julie explains why she rejects cancel culture and instead promotes dialogue and forgiveness as pathways to inclusion.
[00:30:00 — The Rubber Band Rule]
Julie explains her Rubber Band Rule: we all stretch for others, but when we over-stretch, we snap. Respect, she says, is relative, contextual, and dynamic—it shifts with relationships, workplaces, and personal growth.
[00:35:00 — Learning from Difference]
Simma shares stories from her life and work about learning from cross-cultural friendships and experiences in holistic health. Both reflect on how curiosity helped them challenge stereotypes and assumptions.
[00:40:00 — Evolving Through Curiosity]
They discuss how curiosity helps us evolve—our identities, habits, and relationships are always changing. Julie highlights that curiosity is lifelong learning, not a one-time skill.
[00:45:00 — From Outrage to Understanding]
Julie and Simma emphasize moving beyond outrage to curiosity. They share stories about being misjudged and how asking questions transforms conflict into connection.
[00:48:00 — Closing Reflections: Self-Respect and Connection]
Julie closes with her final message: respect isn’t fixed; it changes with context. Simma thanks her for the powerful conversation, reiterates the importance of curiosity, and invites listeners to stay engaged.
Guest Bio
Dr. Julie Pham is the founder of CuriosityBased, a leadership development organization that helps people build trust and collaboration through curiosity. She is the author of Seven Forms of Respect and a TEDx speaker whose work challenges how we define and show respect in our daily lives. Find her at CuriosityBased.com or on LinkedIn (@JuliePhamPhD).
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Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.
Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.
Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information
Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)
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