What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track?
Everyday Conversations on Race
Release Date: 01/14/2026
What Happens When You Don’t Belong
Everyday Conversations on Race
Episode Summary , sociologist, conflict mediator, restorative justice practitioner, and author, joins Simma for a thoughtful conversation about identity, belonging, and communicating across differences. Growing up biracial (half Black, half white) as the youngest of 13 siblings, Angela learned firsthand what it means to feel like an outsider. Those experiences shaped her work in diversity, equity, inclusion, restorative justice, and creating genuine belonging. Together they discuss why belonging is the missing piece in DEI, how microaggressions can become harassment, why calling people in is...
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The 29% Problem: Steve Phillips on Race and Power
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman sits down with Steve Phillips — national political leader, three-time author, Guardian and New York Times contributor, and founder of Democracy in Color. His latest book is Are White Men Smarter Than Everybody Else? Playing Offense in the Fight for Racial Justice in America (his latest) Key concepts discussed: SWAMP — Straight White American Male Preference: a framework to reframe the equality debate and expose overrepresentation of white men (29% of the population, yet dominant in every power structure) SWAMP...
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Dion Lim: The Anti-Asian Hate Story America Forgot
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this powerful episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, host Simma the Inclusionist sits down with Emmy award-winning journalist and author Dion Lim to confront a question too many are avoiding: "Why has the conversation about anti-Asian hate gone silent"? Dion takes us behind the headline-making DM that changed her career — an anonymous video of an elderly Asian man being brutally beaten in San Francisco — and reveals what it took to bring stories like his to light when her own newsroom resisted. From the murder of Vincent Chin to COVID-era scapegoating, she traces the deep...
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Frank Carbajal on Latino Leadership: From Migrant Farmworker Son to Silicon Valley Voice
Everyday Conversations on Race
Frank Carbajal grew up the son of Mexican migrant farmworkers in California's Imperial Valley, where summer temperatures hit 115 degrees and his mother worked the fields through her third trimester. Today he's the founder and president of Es Tiempo LLC, a co-author of three books on Latino leadership, founder of the Silicon Valley Latino Leadership Summit at Stanford University, and a former keynote speaker in Ken Blanchard's network. In this conversation with Simma, Frank talks about what it actually means to be Latino in America today — and why that word doesn't fit everyone who could...
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Dr. Gina Paige on African Ancestry: How DNA Reconnects Black Americans to Their African Roots
Everyday Conversations on Race
For most Black Americans, the family tree stops at a wall built by slavery. Dr. Gina Paige co-founded African Ancestry to tear down that wall. In this episode, she explains how her company uses DNA to trace Black people back to specific African countries and ethnic groups — not vague regions, not percentages, but actual present-day nations and peoples. Gina walks Simma through the science in plain language, explains why African Ancestry gets results other DNA companies can't, and talks about what happens inside people when they finally know where they come from. She also addresses the...
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From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead
Everyday Conversations on Race
Simma Lieberman and Elmer Dixon go back over 50 years — she was in the Young Patriots, he was co-founding the first Black Panther Party chapter outside California. In this conversation, they cut through the lies, revisionist history, and current attacks on DEI to talk about what the Black Panther Party actually stood for, why erasing Black history will never work, and what it takes to stay courageous when the political winds turn ugly. Elmer shares what it was like to transition from revolutionary to corporate diversity consultant, corrects the record on the myths about the Panthers, and...
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Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas
Everyday Conversations on Race
Carole Copeland Thomas has been black all her life — and she's spent decades making sure that means something in every room she walks into. Born in a Black hospital in Detroit during segregation, raised in a middle-class family where college was expected and Black excellence was the air she breathed. Carole became a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) who helps organizations turn complex challenges into real action. In this conversation, Carole and Simma go deep — on race, history, identity, the current political moment, and what all of us need to do right now. They talk about why...
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What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman’s Story?
Everyday Conversations on Race
What happens when two neighbors—one Black, one white—move beyond small talk and start sharing their real stories? In this episode, Simma talks with Sandra Eggleston and Bill Byrne, whose unlikely friendship led to the book MLK to Brother Ray: A Woman’s Adventure of Social Transformation, Political Revolution, and Personal Affirmation. Sandra spent four decades as a United Airlines flight attendant during a time when the U.S. was being reshaped by the Civil Rights Movement and the Women’s Movement. Along the way she met cultural icons, witnessed historic events, and navigated racism...
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Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of , host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of , former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America. Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today. She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of...
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Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?
Everyday Conversations on Race
From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship? In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O’Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women’s circle I’m part of that’s been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy. We talk...
info_outlineA Conversation with Joe Santana; a DEI original
Would you agree that most conversations about DEI today sound loud, polarized, and disconnected from the work itself?
In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, I talk with Joe Santana—advisor, author, and long-time DEI consultant—about where Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion actually came from and how it was originally practiced inside organizations.
What really is DEI, (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion)?
Joe and I have both spent decades doing this work. We’ve watched DEI evolve, get renamed, repackaged, misunderstood, and in some cases quietly dismantled. What often gets lost is that DEI didn’t start as a political position. It started as a business conversation—about how organizations function, how people are evaluated, and how talent is either used or ignored.
What is the business case for DEI? Why are people still talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion?
The early thinking behind DEI and why it mattered to organizational performance
How good intentions gave way to vague language and inconsistent practice
What happens when leaders avoid difference instead of learning how to work with it
Why “treating everyone the same” sounds fair but rarely works
How Employee and Business Resource Groups can either matter—or miss the point entirely
This is a grounded conversation between two practitioners reflecting on what we’ve learned, what we got wrong, and what still holds value—especially for leaders trying to make sense of the current moment.
You’ll learn more about the challenges, and strategic importance of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) in organizations. From the historical context provided by pioneers like Roosevelt Thomas to practical advice on optimizing business outcomes, Joe shares a wealth of knowledge on how DEI can drive both social good and financial success in companies. The episode also covers the vital role of Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) and what organizations can do to leverage them effectively. You’ll gain valuable insights on turning DEI initiatives into strategic business tools.
If you’re looking for clarity instead of slogans, and experience instead of soundbites, you'll find it in this episode.
Guest Bio
Joseph (Joe) Santana is a business strategy coach and futurist specializing in developing CDOs, ERG/BRG leaders, and Executive Sponsors who drive measurable business impact. He is an author, keynote speaker, and member of the Forbes Business Council and the Fast Company Executive Board and a frequent contributor to articles in both organizations’ magazines. His insights and ideas have been shared globally in interviews with media outlets such as ABC, PIX, Fox, Ticker News, and The Black List, a streaming business interview show. His two most recent books, “The New DEI and ERG Frontier” and “SuperCharge Your ERGs,” are available on Amazon, offering invaluable guidance to those ready to embark on the journey toward 21st-century business-impacting success. As CEO of Joseph Santana, LLC, an Inc Verified company, he leads multiple brands focused on equipping CDOs and ERG/BRG Chairs in national and global enterprises with the skills and strategies needed to enhance organizational performance. Below is a graphic depiction of the brands owned by Joseph Santana, LLC.
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Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.
Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.
Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information
Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)
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