Bonus Re-Release: Loving, Living, and Leaving the Evangelical Church, with Sarah McCammon, part 1

Last March, we had the opportunity of interviewing NPR national correspondent Sarah McCammon discussing the strategy and implementation of rigid conservative values in her book The Exvangelicals: Loving, Living, and Leaving the White Evangelical Church. We are re-releasing both our conversations with Sarah in honor of the paperback release on February 18th.

In this episode, we discuss the relationship between Trump and Evangelicals, the rise of religious NONES, why folks stay in EMPish (Evangelical, Mormon, Pentecostal) spaces, and grief around those who leave. These topics, and this book, are more pressing than ever, in the wake of the Trump presidency. 

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In part 1 of a 2 part interview, Sarah talks with us about:

• Trump and Evangelicals (8:20): Sarah starts us off: “I think the most obvious reason is that we are seeing and have been seeing for the past several years what appears to be the apex of white evangelical power as a political project. And one of the most important things I wanted to get across in the book is that we didn't get to where we are by accident.”

• Two Target Audiences (14:00): When asked about reaching various audiences Sarah remarks, “I wrote this book really both for people like us with evangelical religious backgrounds and for people like my husband and a lot of my good friends who are aware that this evangelical world exists, certainly, but find it in a lot of ways kind of mystifying."

• Why Write the Book? (17:00): Sarah says: “Since then I've been asked so many times to explain how Trump happened, to explain white evangelical support for Trump. And I just decided to write a book to try to answer those questions. So I hope for the quote unquote, outsiders it will help to explain that on a really granular level. And for those of us insiders, I hope that they'll feel seen by what I describe.”

• Fear of Judgement (20:00): Julia discusses fear, “Leaving a religious community comes with so much loss. That person might also have the added challenge of moving into more progressive or secular spaces and having a fear of judgment about a particular background. Something that I notice is that when a couple or an individual comes to therapy, particularly sexual health therapy, they have a fear of, "What will this therapist say about me if they know that I chose not to have certain sexual experiences before I got married or whatever else they might have experienced?”

• Empathy and Honesty (21:30): Julia notes: “Something else that you do so excellently is calling out, for lack of a better way to say it, the harm from the broader institutional structures, particularly the political movement so tied with white evangelicalism, while also humanizing the people who have lived and then moved out of it. That is really difficult to be able to do both.”

• Why People Stay in EMPish Spaces (23:00): Sarah offers: “You get these sort of incredulous questions for people, like "Why would anyone be part of something like this?" When they hear about certain aspects of it. I can't underscore enough how important every human being needs community.”

• Lack of Goodbyes (24:00): Jeremiah shares, “The saying goodbye and the saying goodbye without a proper goodbye. Because most people who leave evangelical spaces don't have a proper goodbye, a mutually agreed upon "Hey, if we're in different spaces, I wish you the best for the next chapter of your life." Most people either get kicked out like I did, or the goodbye is kind of fueled by avoidance.”

• Christianity and Inclusivity (29:00): Sarah says: “I've wondered about a lot and I don't have the answer for how would Christianity be different if it had been much more inclusive over all of its history? If people of color and also women had been included in the same way that many churches have prioritized the voices of mostly white men.”

• Promises Unfulfilled (32:00): Sarah notes: “That's one of the most painful things, is that even when you follow the rules and the formula, it doesn't always work out the way you've been told it will.”

• Salem Witch Trials and Christian Textbooks (33:00): Sarah recounts her research into her former Christian textbooks and discusses the rhetoric: “But then it pivoted to this really weird place and it basically ended the section about the Salem Witch Trials by saying, "You know, all of these explanations ignore one obvious possibility, which is that these women really were demon possessed." I'm sure that I would have glossed over that. But today I look back and I go, wait a second, you were saying that women were witches and it's like all of these really subtle ideas about how the family should look, and who women are.”

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