The Conversation Art Podcast
A podcast that goes behind the scenes and between the lines of the contemporary art worlds, through conversations with artists, dealers, curators, and collectors--based in Los Angeles, but reaching nationally and internationally.
info_outline Epis.329: Ben Davis on the Ordinary World Record Egg, what to do when Apple co-opts your artwork, and where high art meets immersive art 10/01/2022
Epis.329: Ben Davis on the Ordinary World Record Egg, what to do when Apple co-opts your artwork, and where high art meets immersive art In part 2 with ArtNet News critic Ben Davis, we talk about: environmentalism and our approach to the climate, as well his emphasis on finding a good middle ground between overly dire and overly sugar-coated perspectives on the conversation; Christian Marclay’s video works “Telephone” – which Apple co-opted, making their own version when Marclay wouldn’t sell it to them – and “The Clock,” which Ben considers to be Marclay’s response to Apple and its iPhone, and images’ ‘place-lessness’ (which “The Clock” returns to us); how he frames the immersive art trend as a question of ‘what’s at stake here?,’ and how there are many trends that he feels needs to be seen from both sides; Alfredo Jaar’s immersive video in the most recent Whitney Biennial, prompted by the very short time window artists now have to gain viewers’ attention; the case of the lovably ordinary @world_record_egg, an Instagram feed that both parodied and addressed concerns about the effects of social media on our individual psyches as an artistic provocation; and Ben’s own tricky relationship with social media (IG).
info_outline Epis.328: Ben Davis, National Art Critic for Artnet News and author most recently of Art in the After-Culture 09/17/2022
Epis.328: Ben Davis, National Art Critic for Artnet News and author most recently of Art in the After-Culture , Artnet News's National Art Critic and author most recently of , talks about: Cultural Appropriation in its many forms, including in the context of Dana Schutz’s controversial “Open Casket” painting; Conspiracy Theory culture, including how videos connecting Marina Abramovic with satanic cults are far, far more viewed than videos about Marina Abramovic herself or her work; the culture that Conspiracy narratives come from, how they persist (often through individuals’ alienation), and why they become so popular; the luxury of people who get to say ‘neener-neener-neener’ in judgement of those who buy into them (the socially superior judging the inferior); Rubem Robierb’s ice sculpture at a fancy club during Miami Basel, which spelled out Greta Thunberg’s “How Dare You” addressed to politicians, and what that said/says about Art and Ecotopia, i.e. art and climate change; his experiences with the groups ‘Extinction Rebellion’ and its splinter group, ‘Extinction Resilience,” and his continuing involvement with Democratic Socialists of America (DSA), among other causes.
info_outline Epis.327: Val Zavala on the Extinction Circle, Death Cafes and the New 10 Commandments for Future Generations 09/03/2022
Epis.327: Val Zavala on the Extinction Circle, Death Cafes and the New 10 Commandments for Future Generations Val Zavala, former anchor/reporter for the long-running KCET (L.A. PBS station) series SoCal Connected and Life & Times talks about: The ‘Extinction Circle’ group that she was part of for a couple years, meeting once a month to discuss likely human extinction (before the pandemic led the group to slowly disband; meantime she continues to be an active member of her local ‘Death Café’); how approaching humanity’s future is akin to Elisabeth Kubler Ross’ five stages of grief; the oil industry’s campaign of disinformation and its effect on the climate crisis; a profoundly thoughtful Buddhist take on our (humankind’s) fate; relating extinction to former guest Fernando Dominguez Rubio’s study of the preservation of artworks in the museum, and what Val thinks of the lengths museums go to maintain artworks’ longevity; the concept of EA, or Effective Altruism, in relation to human longevity; “Seeding” the future, which is to say leaving a better foundation for future civilizations; and her “New 10 Commandments for Future Generations.”
info_outline Epis.326- NYC art appraiser David Shapiro: from valuing a work of art to shifting from his own art career 08/20/2022
Epis.326- NYC art appraiser David Shapiro: from valuing a work of art to shifting from his own art career New York-based art appraiser talks about: What he does as an appraiser, whether in-person inspections or putting together reports using photographs at the computer; his involvement with the Detroit Institute of Art’s collection appraisal, which was connected to the largest municipal bankruptcy in the history of the country; how appraisers value a work of art, from auction records to gallery sales (to the extent that can be verified) to the market as a whole, including trends; turning down offers to appraise works that have no apparent market value; his own career as an artist prior to becoming an appraiser, which included having success selling his work before he was even out of high school; how, when he returned to making art after grad school in art history he had less success, learning about “the fickleness and vicissitudes of the art world,” as he put it; and how he appraises emerging art, including within a market with a lot of movement in values, both up and down.
info_outline Immersive art installations: who visits them, why, and where they're headed...with Kate Sharkey, painter and a 'host' at ARTECHOUSE 08/06/2022
Immersive art installations: who visits them, why, and where they're headed...with Kate Sharkey, painter and a 'host' at ARTECHOUSE New Jersey-based painter and immersive art museum ‘host’ talks about: Transitioning from being a preparator (at MoMA) to getting a job as a ‘host’ at the immersive art museum ARTECHOUSE, where she also does AV/tech work w/the projectors; what her job as host entails, including interacting with and managing guests’ experiences (some who do something called ‘candyflipping')whether or not immersive art experiences are actually ‘art,’ and which immersive art shows have worked best at ARTECHOUSE, particularly a work by Julius Hosthuis; and we talk about whether immersive art exhibits qualify as ‘art’ or ‘entertainment,’ and what other forms of entertainment they’re competing with.
info_outline Epis.#324- Maria Brito, her path from emerging singer to corporate lawyer to art advisor; and how she scored a Banksy for a client 07/23/2022
Epis.#324- Maria Brito, her path from emerging singer to corporate lawyer to art advisor; and how she scored a Banksy for a client , art advisor, entrepreneur and author of talks about: Giving up on her teenage ambitions to become a singer because of the restrictive culture she grew up in; how from there she wound up being a corporate lawyer as a financially stable option that she thought made the most sense; how she made her way into the world of art advising as a disrupter, seeing that there was a clear lack of passion among many of the advisors and consultants she was encountering; the reasons behind the popularity of figurative painting (of course it has to do with collectors); getting a hold of a Banksy painting for a new client; her approach to becoming an art advisor, including her ambition to demystify the art world; the success of her business coinciding with the democratization of the market via social media (i.e. Instagram); and why she focuses so much on prices and values in describing artists in her book, partly as a way to challenge the stereotype of the ‘starving artist’ that so many non-art people hold on to.
info_outline Epis. 323, Dave Kinsey: post-graffiti, post-illustration, post-skate art, and the BLK/MRKT gallery scene in the early-to-mid-2000s 07/09/2022
Epis. 323, Dave Kinsey: post-graffiti, post-illustration, post-skate art, and the BLK/MRKT gallery scene in the early-to-mid-2000s Vista, CA-based artist talks about: The gallery , that grew out of a design studio he co-ran, and launched as a gallery early in the 2000s in Culver City; his coming from a design and skate and graffiti background, and how he and his artist cohort were all generally making post-design, post-skate kind of work, and how they transitioned from street and/or skate and/or graffiti artists to more ‘fine’ art, working across genres; his love and appreciate of KAWS’s work, an artist whom he almost worked with, were it not for a disagreement with his partner; how he bought a property in Three Rivers (near Sequoia National Park), where a pipe broke which led to flooding and the ground turning into a ‘milkshake,’ and forced him, circuitously, into figuring out how to be a full-time artist; his commercial collaborations with big brands (Nike, etc.) and growing his own work in a more personal way; how and why he left advertising and design, and developing a financially sustainable art career; and how he has collected other artist’s work to support their careers as much as his being a fan.
info_outline Episode 322- Profound effects on the art market, ‘Rich-Kid’ art, and a painting of a polar bear 06/27/2022
Episode 322- Profound effects on the art market, ‘Rich-Kid’ art, and a painting of a polar bear In this OLD NEWS-oriented episode of the show, I talk about: Immersive art exhibits, which are booming, much to my chagrin; a follow-up on the art world’s ‘ponzi-like scheme' involving a new participant, “Rich-Kid art,” effects on the art market in both the UK and the U.S. through new laws and regulations, a union formed at Pasadena’s Art Center, reconciling NFT’s with their environmental footprint (and their financial decline), and a painting of a polar bear in the Royal Academy’s Open Call.
info_outline Epis. 321: Working as an artist's assistant, learning to pay attention, and dedication to the process- James Griffith, part 2 06/11/2022
Epis. 321: Working as an artist's assistant, learning to pay attention, and dedication to the process- James Griffith, part 2 In the 2nd part of our conversation, James and I talk about: working as an assistant for various artists, including making large-scale paintings for other artists, and wanting to be credited for his work, with a title such as “lead painter,” something that officially acknowledges his contributions; and meanwhile, how important the process of the making is to his own work; the things that keep James up at night, from the climate crisis to worldwide political bifurcation…basically, “human tragedy is running deep…;” further connecting collectors to his work through his artist talk at his recent show; a story he accidentally left out from his talk, that has to do with searching for enlightenment; buying a piece of land in the canyons of Malibu, which became an education in native plants and paying attention to the landscape (his wife is now a landscape designer emphasizing native plants); and how the person he’d like to emulate is not an artist but rather a zen master or the like, someone who lives as fully as possible.
info_outline Epis. 320: James Griffith, L.A.-based painter, on painting with tar, and re-building his home, studio, and outdoor amphitheater- part 1 of 2 05/28/2022
Epis. 320: James Griffith, L.A.-based painter, on painting with tar, and re-building his home, studio, and outdoor amphitheater- part 1 of 2 Altadena (in L.A. County)-based artist talks about: Discovering the town of Altadena, where they first bought a house, and then a studio building, formerly Altadena’s fire house, back in 1999, and fixing them both up from tear-down conditions; being connected to nature while also being in the city, and not ever buying into owning a cell/mobile phone (although he does use an iPod, which he can text with); having renters in both the converted garage at their home, and in a section of their studio building, providing he and his wife with more freedom to make their art without needing ‘the monthly nut;’ working with tar as his primary medium, which he’s done for well over a decade and gotten a lot of mileage from one 5-gallon bucket of the stuff; and his and his wife’s decorative/faux finish painting business, which his wife launched in the 80s, and allowed them to buy their fixer upper house and studio building.
info_outline Epis. 319: Sarah Thibault, S.F.-based artist, on residency hopping, conversing with ghosts, and being the last artist in San Francisco (or so it seems) 05/14/2022
Epis. 319: Sarah Thibault, S.F.-based artist, on residency hopping, conversing with ghosts, and being the last artist in San Francisco (or so it seems) San Francisco-based artist talks about: How she’s the last artist in S.F., or at least so it seems; a ghost encounter she experienced in Edinburgh (Scotland), as well as her engaging in Tarot cards and other new-age spiritual pursuits, largely as a byproduct of the pandemic; her experiences going to a range of artist residencies, from remote ones with just a couple fellow residents in Portugal, to a more professionalized one at Plop in London; the Minnesota Street Project, a subsidized artist studio and gallery complex in SF where Sarah has a long-term lease at ‘below-market rate,’ and the barriers for entry there; her transition from working in executive assistant jobs to becoming a recruiter; and we talk about my concerns about Sarah’s giving me a tarot reading (and spoiler: we eventually do one in a bonus episode to come).
info_outline Epis. 318: Andrew Russeth- art writer formerly in New York, now living in Seoul, South Korea 04/30/2022
Epis. 318: Andrew Russeth- art writer formerly in New York, now living in Seoul, South Korea Freelance art writer (often for the New York Times) and past guest royalty talks about: Why he moved to Seoul, South Korea, where he’s expanded his freelance writing opportunities; a book on Chris Burden’s unrealized sculpture projects, which he wrote about for the New York Times- the book includes a one-stop pneumatic subway under the Gagosian gallery; artists using assistants, and the optics that go along with the various levels of production that certain artists employ, for us as viewers of their work; the art scene(s) and community in greater Seoul, which has a metropolitan population of 25 million, nearly half that of the whole country of South Korea; the vast artist-run gallery scene in Seoul; how some of the trends in Korean contemporary art overlap with international contemporary art, including airbrushed figuration, humor, and meme culture; and last but not least, Andrew holds forth on South Korea’s incredible food and drink culture (including Bibimbap and soju), which has been heaven for him.
info_outline Epis. 317: museums’ Invisible Labor, and how exhibition rooms are suspensions of common sense- Fernando Dominguez Rubio, part 3 04/16/2022
Epis. 317: museums’ Invisible Labor, and how exhibition rooms are suspensions of common sense- Fernando Dominguez Rubio, part 3 with , author of , he talks about: Storage- how much it takes to maintain it; how museum curators put the longevity of artworks in the context of geological time, when thinking about ‘eternity,’ and how exhibition rooms in museums are effectively ICUs for the art- conditions must be monitored and controlled carefully, because humans, just by their organic natures, are an immediate threat to artworks’ longevity; how exhibition rooms in museums are highly mediated spaces by exhibition designers to control viewers’ experiences; the complex logistics and mimeographic labor that goes into the maintenance of artworks within the museum- where and whether they get loaned, get exhibited, etc.; Fernando’s own experience of violence when he first encountered contemporary art, because, as is the case for most individuals, he didn’t have the grammar for reading the exhibition room; how his working class background, and change in classes as an adult, has informed his focus on the invisible labor at the museum, as opposed to its ‘celebrities;’ and how exhibition spaces have been “conquered for a suspension of common sense.”
info_outline Epis. 316: Why MoMA goes to great lengths to recreate what's dying or only existing in the past- Fernando Dominguez Rubio, part 2 04/02/2022
Epis. 316: Why MoMA goes to great lengths to recreate what's dying or only existing in the past- Fernando Dominguez Rubio, part 2 In part 2 with , a professor of communications at UCSD and author of , he talks about: The astonishing resources that go into some museum artworks, starting with David Lamelas’s conceptual installation “Office,” which MoMA bought and decided to reproduce, but were reproducing an installation that no longer existed, and yet they did everything they could to be true to the original piece, based only off photographs; the ‘modern aesthetic regime of art,’ and how art that once rebelled against museums and museum inclusion – was anti-institution – is now embracing as many angles of commodification as it (via the artist) can; the savvy machinations of the artist Tino Seghal; and, as part of our discussion of art words and conservation-based artist interviews, we play out a MoMA interview with the artist James Rosenquist, which raises one of Rubio’s big questions: “what is a museum-- is it not a necessary absurdity?”
info_outline Epis. 315: What goes on behind the scenes of a museum (specifically MoMA), and why it matters, with Fernando Dominguez Rubio, author of Still Life: Ecologies of the Modern Imagination at the Art Museum, part 1 03/19/2022
Epis. 315: What goes on behind the scenes of a museum (specifically MoMA), and why it matters, with Fernando Dominguez Rubio, author of Still Life: Ecologies of the Modern Imagination at the Art Museum, part 1 In the first of several parts with , a professor of communications at UCSD and author of , he talks about: How he got started with the massive eight-year project of this book, beginning with his post-doctoral thesis interviewing numerous people who work at the Museum of Modern Art; how he gained entry into the museum (hint: via the Conservation dept.); the hidden labor that’s done at the museum, as part of something he calls “mimeographic labor,” a process to make objects of ‘the same;’ how most art in the world is in storage – it isn’t seen art – which is definitively the case for museums; how much invisible labor goes into what visitors see in a museum, and to what extent that labor, spread around various parts of the museum and its numerous artworks, is sustainable.
info_outline Epis. 314: Oligarch Shortage, SuperBlue Indictment, and the Cinema of Transgression: the Guest-Less Episode courtesy OLD NEWS 03/07/2022
Epis. 314: Oligarch Shortage, SuperBlue Indictment, and the Cinema of Transgression: the Guest-Less Episode courtesy OLD NEWS In this guest-less episode, we ( that is to say 'I') talk about: a new OPEN CALL for future guests of this podcast; the opening reception and the show 'It's My House!,' a group show in Ojai that I'm in; and numerous recent excerpts from Jeff Weiss's OLD NEWS, including stories about the Sacklers' name being taken off institutions, the Waste Museum in Nigeria, the indictment of the (former) sales director for Superblue, and the recently passed auteur Nick Zedd, among other recent art news. It's all capped with a very short story about the Pearlfish, which can be seen here:
info_outline Epis.313: Sam Francis- king of desire, 02/19/2022
Epis.313: Sam Francis- king of desire, In Part 2 with writer , author of we talk about Sam Francis as he: Settles into his compound at West Channel Road in Santa Monica, and became the big-man-on-campus of the young (1960s) L.A. art scene; his relative absence as a father, his kids being left to run wild or spend time with Sam’s assistants; Sam’s self-empowered and grandiose painting process which included his mantra, “I am an Original” as he began to paint; the profound impact that his fifth (and final) wife, Margaret, had on Sam’s life, because of the way she corralled Sam off from the large and freely flowing group of friends who came in and out of the house(s), as well as how she enabled Sam’s adherence to bogus alternative medicine when he was suffering from cancer; the Dream Machines of his studios in the works, including many compounds simultaneously in development in northern California towards the end of his life; the resolution of his complicated Estate, including a contested will by his last wife; and where one might find Sam Francis paintings these days.
info_outline Epis.312: Writer Gabrielle Selz on Sam Francis, an abstract painter who broke all the rules 02/05/2022
Epis.312: Writer Gabrielle Selz on Sam Francis, an abstract painter who broke all the rules about: the important first phase of Sam’s long art career, in Paris, where he started working on a big painting from his bed in a tiny hotel room he shared with his girlfriend Muriel; how he was a shrewd businessman and cocky self-promoter, a sort of Orson Welles of the art world; how his first patron, Franz Meyer Sr., told Sam he would buy anything he made, thus freeing Sam and bolstering his confidence and security; how Sam wasn’t tied to place (he was constantly traveling and living in different countries), nor to style; and how lucrative Sam’s career was, including having bank accounts (including Swiss) all over the world, and his philosophy that money flowed through you, and that you should spend it.
info_outline Epis. 311: Sydney Croskery, part 2 of 2- 01/22/2022
Epis. 311: Sydney Croskery, part 2 of 2- In part 2 of 2 with Los Angeles-based painter , she talks about: connecting with a gallerist -- who has come to represent her – on Instagram, synchronistically; the benefits and travails of her day job as a server, which can be very intense, and could make for a whole other episode; her “Failure CV,” which accompanies the traditional CV on her website, and how in addition to being self-deprecating, has also been empowering; and as a final grab bag topic, Sydney wonders why there are a number of artists who want their work to have no meaning whatsoever (if you know of an example of such work, please reach out and let me know; Sydney didn’t want to call anyone out).
info_outline Epis.310: Sydney Croskery, Los Angeles artist 01/08/2022
Epis.310: Sydney Croskery, Los Angeles artist Los Angeles artist Sydney Croskery talks about moving from representation into abstraction, a transition she made during lockdown; her ambivalent relationship with abstract painting and being an abstract painter, and how she’s navigating that conflict; her tendency toward narration, which she uses to propel her paintings, and the way she dispenses them on social media (IG), which has been effective in building online and IRL community
info_outline Epis.308: Yoshino of Artist Decoded (the podcast), part 1 of 2 12/13/2021
Epis.308: Yoshino of Artist Decoded (the podcast), part 1 of 2 Yoshino, host of the Artist Decoded podcast, talks about: how he shortened his name to the iconic ‘Yoshino,’ thanks to an existential crisis involving leaving the commercial and fashion photo world; how as an artist he wants to be fluid, which runs counter to capitalist realities; growing up Christian, and his current spiritual place; his move to Joshua Tree, partially due to the spiritual wokeness of LA, and his desire to process information outside of the noisy machinations of Los Angeles.
info_outline Epis.307: a Spanish painter (Antonio Murado) goes to New York City- 11/26/2021
Epis.307: a Spanish painter (Antonio Murado) goes to New York City- Antonio Murado, a New York City-based painter from Spain, talks about: the commissions that he’s done- how he's gotten them and how competing for one is like an actor casting for a role; how the sales of his work rise and fall, not only by year but by month, leading to no stability; and his time in the studio (around 65-70 hours/week)- how he spends his days there, and how he takes an old-school craftsmanship approach, from sizing canvas with rabbit-skin glue to building his own stretchers.
info_outline Episode 306: Collector disconnect, enjoying without owning, and 11/13/2021
Episode 306: Collector disconnect, enjoying without owning, and In the final episode with Bound by Creativity author Hannah Wohl, we talk about: her experiences with mega-collector couple Sherry and Joel Mallin, including a purchase the Mallins made that entailed their flying from New York to London just so they could see a work in person before committing to the purchase; and in comparing contemporary art with the arts at large she describes the ‘radical uncertainty’ that goes along with it, how the artists and the art world make decisions within this uncertainty.
info_outline The challenge of describing contemporary art (even for a writer): 10/30/2021
The challenge of describing contemporary art (even for a writer): Hannah Wohl (author of Bound by Creativity) talks about: the cynicism of sociologists, particularly when theorizing about art (and in relation to the sculptor St. Clair Cemin in particular); the emergence of the artist Ginny Casey; her appreciation of Wong Ping’s show at the New Museum; the challenges of talking, and writing about art; and she begins recounting her experience ‘playing’ a gallery assistant at an art fair (as an unpaid volunteer) for the purpose of her sociological research).
info_outline Epis.304: Virtual Cafe w/special guest Rose Bricetti 10/16/2021
Epis.304: Virtual Cafe w/special guest Rose Bricetti In The Conversation’s latest Virtual Café, special guest Rose Bricetti talks about: how memes break down institutional critique; the Instagram account Jerry Gogosian, which was revealed to be run by Hilde (former guest of the podcast); how the image and meaning of Pepe the frog has changed over time, depending on how it's used and covered in the media; Rose’s art-making, which has been influenced by memes and her prior work as a museum designer; and her consumption of Tik Tok vs. Instagram.
info_outline Epis.303: Status Signals, and risking a Lower Status 10/02/2021
Epis.303: Status Signals, and risking a Lower Status Sociologist Hannah Wohl (author of Bound by Creativity) talks about: Competing claims to expertise between artists and gallerists; the fiduciary responsibilities art advisors take on, which involves a very pointed analysis of artists’ pedigrees when choosing work for their clients; and Antonio Murado, a painter who has produced highly-paid commissions for corporate banks, and in the process grappled with issues around selling out and compromising his work.
info_outline Epis 302: Hannah Wohl, part 3- 09/18/2021
Epis 302: Hannah Wohl, part 3- In digging into Hannah’s book, ‘Bound by Creativity,’ we talk about: the continued existence of the artist as bohemian (even as ‘enfant terrible’), as personified a pseudonymous artist whose gallerist and collectors affectionately boast about how crazy he is, and yet who occasionally goes to far; the collector-artist dynamic in studio visits, where a power imbalance is the norm, and collectors are often hesitant to buy work by an artist who they haven’t already invested in...and much more.
info_outline Epis. 301- Bound by Creativity, pt 2 with Hannah Wohl 09/04/2021
Epis. 301- Bound by Creativity, pt 2 with Hannah Wohl In part 2 we continue our conversation by talking about whether the terms ‘Creative Vision,’ or ‘Signature Style,’ are euphemisms for ‘brand’; the relative importance of the art world, in that it moves the conversation(s) forward, even as a collector-supported system; how cultural consumption tends to reinforce the status of the elites, rather than undercut it; and the main difference is between trust-fund baby collectors and trust-fund artists
info_outline Episode 300- Hannah Wohl on her book Bound by Creativity: part 1 08/21/2021
Episode 300- Hannah Wohl on her book Bound by Creativity: part 1 In the first part of a multi-part series, Hannah Wohl, sociologist and author of Bound by Creativity talks about: how she earned entry into some of the inner sanctums of the art world, starting with artists but then eventually through the support and generosity of one legendary gallerist; the process of artists developing a signature style for which they become known; and the challenges for artists with a recognizable ‘creative vision’ who try to transition into another style and/or medium.