Artificial, but not Intelligent: How biased data can affect AI employment models.
Release Date: 08/05/2026
Choosing “The Lesser Evil”
ellisconversations's podcast
Choosing “The Lesser Evil” In this episode, the hosts discuss how the phrase “Lesser of two Evils” has been overworked in the election context. It has been applied when one or neither of the choices meets the definition of “evil” but rather the view of the voter that both candidates are flawed in some way. The hosts submit that when faced with such a perceived dilemma, the person should use their vote to cause the least harmful outcome. Jamil Ellis and his father, retired Federal Magistrate Judge Ronald Louis Ellis, explore the difference between accepting a candidate’s flaws and...
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Jason Arday, DEI, and the New Eugenics
ellisconversations's podcast
Original Intent: How traditionally excluded people are targeted for removal when they show up in “the wrong space.” In this episode, the Hosts discuss the case of Jason Arday and why history suggests that the intense scrutiny and media coverage he faced may not be simply a concern about qualifications, or lack thereof. In March 2023, Jason Arday made history as the youngest Black person ever appointed to a professorship at the University of Cambridge. Celebrated for an extraordinary journey that took him to one of the world’s most prestigious universities, Arday became a...
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Quick Take: Taxing Diversity Out of Education
ellisconversations's podcast
The Trump administration has opened a new front in its campaign against diversity, equity, and inclusion: the federal tax code. In this mini episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Ronald Ellis respond to a proposed Treasury Department and IRS rule that could strip private schools, colleges, and universities of their tax-exempt status if they operate admissions, scholarship, financial-aid, or student-support programs that consider race. They examine whether the executive branch should have the authority to redefine which educational institutions qualify...
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Artificial, but not Intelligent: How biased data can affect AI employment models.
ellisconversations's podcast
In this episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Hon. Ronald L. Ellis continue their two-part conversation on employment discrimination, civil-rights enforcement, and the future of equal opportunity. Part One looked at the history of employment discrimination law, disparate impact, and the role of the EEOC, Justice Department, courts, and civil-rights lawyers in building protections for workers. In Part Two, the conversation turns to a newer and less visible frontier: algorithmic hiring systems. Jamil and Judge Ellis discuss what happens when software...
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In Sheep’s Clothing: When facially neutral policies and practices mask intentional discrimination
ellisconversations's podcast
In this episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Hon. Ronald L. Ellis begin a two-part conversation on employment discrimination, civil-rights enforcement, and the future of equal opportunity in America. Prompted by recent reporting on the Trump administration’s retreat from discrimination enforcement — including the Justice Department, EEOC, and other federal agencies stepping back from disparate-impact cases — Jamil asks Judge Ellis to help explain how we got the workplace protections we have today, why they matter, and what may be lost when...
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The American Dream at 250
ellisconversations's podcast
In this episode, the Hosts discuss America’s struggle to make real the promise of equality embodied in its founding documents depite periodic efforts to restrict who should be able to live that dream.
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Loving Day, The Warren Court, The rights they want to erase
ellisconversations's podcast
In this episode of Ellis Conversations, co-host Jamil Ellis sits down again with his father, retired federal magistrate Judge Ronald Ellis, to mark Loving Day — the anniversary of Loving v. Virginia, the 1967 Supreme Court case that struck down bans on interracial marriage. What starts as a reflection on Loving Day quickly becomes a powerful and wide-ranging discussion about: How distorted historical narratives fuel today’s rollback of civil rights Why anti-DEI forces rely on historical erasure The forgotten legal barriers against women The dangerous nostalgia embedded in the “Make...
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Deliberate, But No Speed: How Supreme Court rulings have allowed public schools to remain segregated seventy years after Brown v. Board.
ellisconversations's podcast
The hosts discuss how desegregation under Brown was hampered in schools by a policy of “all deliberate speed” where the speed was often zero. In contrast, and despite the fact that in large portions of the nation education is separate and unequal, the Trump administration has begun an “all speed ahead” policy of eliminating decrees which contained desegregation requirements'. In this episode of Ellis Conversations, co-host Jamil Ellis and his father, retired federal magistrate Judge Ronald Ellis, reflect on the 71st anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education—not...
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The Company Trump Keeps: From David Duke to The Proud Boys to Project 2025 – Intended Consequences
ellisconversations's podcast
In this episode, the hosts discuss Project 2025 and its potential impact in a Donald Trump administration. Heritage Foundation and Trump Biden’s Judicial Appointments Trump bankruptcies The Nation on the Heirtage Foundation Project 2025 Trump Administration people at Heritage Trump on baby Tiffany’s body. Platforms - https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2016-republican-party-platform Related episodes
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Voting is a Fundamental Right: Exercise It; You’ll Make It Stronger
ellisconversations's podcast
In this episode, the hosts begin a series of discussions on the historical significance of voting, efforts to prevent some groups from voting, and why you should exercise your right to vote even if you don’t like the choices. Do what you can, where you are, with what you have. - In American politics, the Southern strategy was a electoral strategy to increase political support among white voters in the by appealing to . Voter ID by State Student ID to Vote
info_outlineIn this episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Hon. Ronald L. Ellis continue their two-part conversation on employment discrimination, civil-rights enforcement, and the future of equal opportunity.
Part One looked at the history of employment discrimination law, disparate impact, and the role of the EEOC, Justice Department, courts, and civil-rights lawyers in building protections for workers. In Part Two, the conversation turns to a newer and less visible frontier: algorithmic hiring systems.
Jamil and Judge Ellis discuss what happens when software platforms, recruiting tools, and AI-driven screening systems sit between job applicants and employers. If these systems score, sort, rank, or filter applicants before a human being ever sees them, are they simply neutral tools — or are they powerful gatekeepers that must be accountable under civil-rights law?
The episode focuses on the legal and moral questions raised by cases like Mobley v. Workday, where plaintiffs allege that algorithmic hiring tools can reproduce bias based on race, age, and disability. Jamil and Judge Ellis explore why machine-learning systems trained on past employment patterns may risk automating old discrimination in new forms, and why transparency, data, state-level regulation, and accountability for technology middlemen may become essential civil-rights issues.
At the heart of the episode is a simple question: Civil-rights law cannot stop at the edge of the algorithm. If technology helps decide who gets opportunity, who makes sure the technology is fair?
Related Ellis Conversations Episodes
This episode builds on a longer Ellis Conversations thread about civil rights, courts, democracy, and the systems that decide who gets full access to opportunity.
Related episodes:
“In Sheep’s Clothing: When facially neutral policies and practices mask intentional discrimination”
A direct companion to this episode. We discuss employment discrimination, disparate impact, and why neutral-looking rules can still produce unequal outcomes.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-sheeps-clothing-when-facially-neutral-policies-and/id1485019282?i=1000776614155
“The American Dream at 250”
Connects the AI accountability conversation to the larger question of who gets access to the American promise.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-american-dream-at-250/id1485019282?i=1000775453951
“Loving Day, The Warren Court, The rights they want to erase”
Looks at the Warren Court’s civil-rights legacy and today’s rollback of protections — background for why new AI systems need civil-rights accountability.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/loving-day-the-warren-court-the-rights-they-want-to-erase/id1485019282?i=1000712580199
“Deliberate, But No Speed”
Explores how rights can exist on paper while enforcement is delayed, narrowed, or resisted — a key theme in thinking about algorithmic discrimination.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/deliberate-but-no-speed-how-supreme-court-rulings-have/id1485019282?i=1000710549539
“Claudine Gay: The Latest Victim in the Debate over DEI, Affirmative Action, and Meritocracy”
Connects to how claims of “merit” and “neutrality” can ignore historical exclusion — the same concern raised by AI hiring tools marketed as objective.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/claudine-gay-the-latest-victim-in-the-debate-over/id1485019282?i=1000641006303
Full Ellis Conversations archive:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ellisconversationss-podcast/id1485019282