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Choosing “The Lesser Evil”

Release Date: 10/16/2026

ellisconversations's podcast

Choosing “The Lesser Evil” In this episode, the hosts discuss how the phrase “Lesser of two Evils” has been overworked in the election context. It has been applied when one or neither of the choices meets the definition of “evil” but rather the view of the voter that both candidates are flawed in some way. The hosts submit that when faced with such a perceived dilemma, the person should use their vote to cause the least harmful outcome. Jamil Ellis and his father, retired Federal Magistrate Judge Ronald Louis Ellis, explore the difference between accepting a candidate’s flaws and...

Jason Arday, DEI, and the New Eugenics

ellisconversations's podcast

Original Intent: How traditionally excluded people are targeted for removal when they show up in “the wrong space.” In this episode, the Hosts discuss the case of Jason Arday and why history suggests that the intense scrutiny and media coverage he faced may not be simply a concern about qualifications, or lack thereof. In March 2023, Jason Arday made history as the youngest Black person ever appointed to a professorship at the University of Cambridge. Celebrated for an extraordinary journey that took him to one of the world’s most prestigious universities, Arday became a...

Quick Take: Taxing Diversity Out of Education

ellisconversations's podcast

The Trump administration has opened a new front in its campaign against diversity, equity, and inclusion: the federal tax code. In this mini episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Ronald Ellis respond to a proposed Treasury Department and IRS rule that could strip private schools, colleges, and universities of their tax-exempt status if they operate admissions, scholarship, financial-aid, or student-support programs that consider race. They examine whether the executive branch should have the authority to redefine which educational institutions qualify...

Artificial, but not Intelligent: How biased data can affect AI employment models.

ellisconversations's podcast

In this episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Hon. Ronald L. Ellis continue their two-part conversation on employment discrimination, civil-rights enforcement, and the future of equal opportunity. Part One looked at the history of employment discrimination law, disparate impact, and the role of the EEOC, Justice Department, courts, and civil-rights lawyers in building protections for workers. In Part Two, the conversation turns to a newer and less visible frontier: algorithmic hiring systems. Jamil and Judge Ellis discuss what happens when software...

In Sheep’s Clothing: When facially neutral policies and practices mask intentional discrimination

ellisconversations's podcast

In this episode of Ellis Conversations, Jamil Ellis and retired Federal Magistrate Judge Hon. Ronald L. Ellis begin a two-part conversation on employment discrimination, civil-rights enforcement, and the future of equal opportunity in America. Prompted by recent reporting on the Trump administration’s retreat from discrimination enforcement — including the Justice Department, EEOC, and other federal agencies stepping back from disparate-impact cases — Jamil asks Judge Ellis to help explain how we got the workplace protections we have today, why they matter, and what may be lost when...

The American Dream at 250

ellisconversations's podcast

In this episode, the Hosts discuss America’s struggle to make real the promise of equality embodied in its founding documents depite periodic efforts to restrict who should be able to live that dream.

Loving Day, The Warren Court, The rights they want to erase

ellisconversations's podcast

In this episode of Ellis Conversations, co-host Jamil Ellis sits down again with his father, retired federal magistrate Judge Ronald Ellis, to mark Loving Day — the anniversary of Loving v. Virginia, the 1967 Supreme Court case that struck down bans on interracial marriage. What starts as a reflection on Loving Day quickly becomes a powerful and wide-ranging discussion about: How distorted historical narratives fuel today’s rollback of civil rights Why anti-DEI forces rely on historical erasure The forgotten legal barriers against women The dangerous nostalgia embedded in the “Make...

Deliberate, But No Speed: How Supreme Court rulings have allowed public schools to remain segregated seventy years after Brown v. Board.

ellisconversations's podcast

The hosts discuss how desegregation under Brown was hampered in schools by a policy of “all deliberate speed” where the speed was often zero. In contrast, and despite the fact that in large portions of the nation education is separate and unequal, the Trump administration has begun an “all speed ahead” policy of eliminating decrees which contained desegregation requirements'. In this episode of Ellis Conversations, co-host Jamil Ellis and his father, retired federal magistrate Judge Ronald Ellis, reflect on the 71st anniversary of Brown v. Board of Education—not...

The Company Trump Keeps: From David Duke to The Proud Boys to Project 2025 – Intended Consequences

ellisconversations's podcast

In this episode, the hosts discuss Project 2025 and its potential impact in a Donald Trump administration. Heritage Foundation and Trump Biden’s Judicial Appointments Trump bankruptcies The Nation on the Heirtage Foundation Project 2025 Trump Administration people at Heritage Trump on baby Tiffany’s body. Platforms - https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2016-republican-party-platform Related episodes

Voting is a Fundamental Right: Exercise It; You’ll Make It Stronger

ellisconversations's podcast

In this episode, the hosts begin a series of discussions on the historical significance of voting, efforts to prevent some groups from voting, and why you should exercise your right to vote even if you don’t like the choices. Do what you can, where you are, with what you have. - In American politics, the Southern strategy was a electoral strategy to increase political support among white voters in the by appealing to . Voter ID by State Student ID to Vote

More Episodes

Choosing “The Lesser Evil”

In this episode, the hosts discuss how the phrase “Lesser of two Evils” has been overworked in the election context. It has been applied when one or neither of the choices meets the definition of “evil” but rather the view of the voter that both candidates are flawed in some way. The hosts submit that when faced with such a perceived dilemma, the person should use their vote to cause the least harmful outcome.

Jamil Ellis and his father, retired Federal Magistrate Judge Ronald Louis Ellis, explore the difference between accepting a candidate’s flaws and overlooking the consequences of an election. Drawing on the history of slavery, discrimination in Northern states, and the struggle for integrated schools, they consider how people have pursued greater freedom and opportunity even when the available choices were imperfect.

The conversation examines what it means to vote for an entire governing ecosystem—including judicial appointments, agency leadership, party platforms, and legislative priorities. The hosts also discuss how segregation and the suppression of history limit our understanding of one another, and why those divisions matter when evaluating political claims.

They bring the discussion back to the human consequences of policy: immigration enforcement’s impact on families, projected losses of health insurance and associated risks to life, and estimates of preventable deaths resulting from cuts to USAID. Throughout, they argue that voting and holding elected officials accountable belong together. Choosing the least harmful outcome does not end the work of demanding something better.

Resources promised in the episode

Leon F. Litwack, North of Slavery: The Negro in the Free States. The book Judge Ellis references about discrimination against free Black Americans in the North before the Civil War.
University of Chicago Press — book page press.uchicago.edu
Previous Ellis Conversations episode on Project 2025 and party platforms. The strongest match is “The Company Trump Keeps: From David Duke to The Proud Boys to Project 2025 – Intended Consequences” (July 11, 2024). Its notes include both Project 2025 material and party-platform links.
Listen on Apple Podcasts Apple Podcasts
Additional documents for listeners:
Project 2025 is a Heritage-led policy blueprint, separate from the Republican Party’s official platform. static.heritage.org
Zohran Mamdani’s video about Italian immigrants in New York. This appears to be the piece mentioned: an Italian Heritage Month video recognizing immigrants’ contributions and Vito Marcantonio’s legacy.
Watch the video on the NYC Mayor’s Facebook page facebook.com
Ford Pinto litigation and the value placed on human life. The relevant case is Grimshaw v. Ford Motor Co. (1981), addressing the Pinto’s fuel-system design, a fatal fire, and punitive damages.
Read the court opinion law.justia.com
School integration: Sheff v. O’Neill

The landmark Connecticut school-desegregation case discussed in the episode challenged racial and economic isolation in Hartford-area public schools. The 1996 decision established the state’s obligation to address segregation and unequal educational opportunity. legaldefensefund.substack.com
Voting information for the upcoming election. For NYC listeners, Election Day is Tuesday, November 3, 2026, with polls open 6 a.m.–9 p.m. Early voting runs October 24–November 1.
NYC Board of Elections — election information
Early voting information
Request an early-mail or absentee ballot vote.nyc

Sources supporting the statistics and other references

ICE street arrests and Latino communities. THE CITY’s investigation identified 430 NYC-area street arrests, more than 93% involving Latinos, through court challenges. This describes that investigation’s sample, rather than all ICE arrests.
Read the investigation The City Reporter
Deaths in immigration detention. Reuters documented 50 deaths since January 2025 as of June 2026, and found that the population-adjusted death rate had more than doubled. Label the figure with its reporting date.
Reuters — detention mortality investigation www.reuters.com
Projected increases in uninsured people. Georgetown summarizes CBO’s estimates: 5.2 million additional uninsured people in 2027 and 10 million in 2034 due to the 2025 reconciliation law.
Georgetown — CBO coverage estimates Center For Children and Families
Potential deaths associated with insurance losses. The published analysis estimated 16,642 additional annual deaths for 7.6 million additional uninsured people under an earlier proposal. Applying the same rate to 10 million produces approximately 22,000 annual deaths. The show notes should identify this as an extrapolation, not a CBO mortality estimate.
Annals of Internal Medicine study — abstract pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
USAID: estimated deaths over one year. NPR reporting carried by KPBS quotes Brooke Nichols’ estimate of more than 700,000 deaths, including more than half a million children. This is a modeled estimate, not an individually verified death count.
NPR/KPBS — reporting and individual cases KPBS Public Media
USAID: projected deaths through 2030. The Lancet study projected approximately 14 million additional deaths, including 4.5 million children under five, under sustained steep defunding. This overlaps with the one-year estimate; the figures should not be added together.
The Lancet study — abstract pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Sam Altman’s comments about accepting AI-related harms. I found reporting matching the remarks paraphrased in the episode.
The Verge — October 5, 2026 theverge.com

Voting in NYC: Make Your Plan!

You have three ways to vote: early in person, by mail, or in person on Election Day. Use the official resources below to check your registration, find your assigned polling place, and make a plan.

Check your registration

The voter-registration deadline is Saturday, October 24, 2026. Mailed registration applications must be received by that date, not simply postmarked. New York State Board of ...

1. Vote early in person: October 24–November 1

Vote at your assigned early voting location, which may differ from your Election Day location.

Date	Hours
Saturday, October 24	9 a.m.–5 p.m.
Sunday, October 25	9 a.m.–5 p.m.
Monday, October 26	9 a.m.–5 p.m.
Tuesday, October 27	10 a.m.–8 p.m.
Wednesday, October 28	10 a.m.–8 p.m.
Thursday, October 29	8 a.m.–4 p.m.
Friday, October 30	9 a.m.–5 p.m.
Saturday, October 31	9 a.m.–5 p.m.
Sunday, November 1	9 a.m.–5 p.m.

Find your assigned early voting site · Official early voting information NYC Votes

2. Vote by mail: No excuse required

Any registered voter can request an early mail ballot. Absentee ballots also remain available for voters who meet the qualifying conditions. NYC Board of Elections

October 24: Deadline for the Board of Elections to receive a ballot request online or by mail.
November 2: Last day to request a ballot in person at your county Board of Elections office.
November 3: Last day to postmark your completed ballot or deliver it in person by 9 p.m. vote.nyc

Follow the ballot instructions carefully, sign and date the security envelope, and seal both envelopes. Return postage is prepaid. You can also deliver your completed ballot to your county Board of Elections office or a polling place in your county during voting hours. Mail it early: the State Board of Elections lists November 10 as the receipt deadline for ballots postmarked by Election Day. nycvotes.org

Already requested a mail ballot but want to vote in person? You will need to use an affidavit ballot, rather than a voting machine. Ask a poll worker for assistance. nycvotes.org

3. Vote on Election Day: Tuesday, November 3

Polls are open 6 a.m.–9 p.m. Vote at your assigned Election Day polling place, and check the location before heading out. vote.nyc

Questions or assistance?

Visit the NYC Board of Elections or NYC Votes, or call 1-866-VOTE-NYC (1-866-868-3692). nycvotes.org

Dates checked October 16, 2026. Check the official sites for updates before voting.

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