How Racist Competency Checks Prevent Merit-Based Hiring
Everyday Conversations on Race
Release Date: 03/09/2025
From Black Panther to Corporate America: Elmer Dixon on Race, Revolution, and Why DEI Is Not Dead
Everyday Conversations on Race
Simma Lieberman and Elmer Dixon go back over 50 years — she was in the Young Patriots, he was co-founding the first Black Panther Party chapter outside California. In this conversation, they cut through the lies, revisionist history, and current attacks on DEI to talk about what the Black Panther Party actually stood for, why erasing Black history will never work, and what it takes to stay courageous when the political winds turn ugly. Elmer shares what it was like to transition from revolutionary to corporate diversity consultant, corrects the record on the myths about the Panthers, and...
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Why We Can't Stop Talking About Race: A Conversation with Carole Copeland Thomas
Everyday Conversations on Race
Carole Copeland Thomas has been black all her life — and she's spent decades making sure that means something in every room she walks into. Born in a Black hospital in Detroit during segregation, raised in a middle-class family where college was expected and Black excellence was the air she breathed. Carole became a Certified Speaking Professional (CSP) who helps organizations turn complex challenges into real action. In this conversation, Carole and Simma go deep — on race, history, identity, the current political moment, and what all of us need to do right now. They talk about why...
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What Happens When a White Neighbor Writes a Black Woman’s Story?
Everyday Conversations on Race
What happens when two neighbors—one Black, one white—move beyond small talk and start sharing their real stories? In this episode, Simma talks with Sandra Eggleston and Bill Byrne, whose unlikely friendship led to the book MLK to Brother Ray: A Woman’s Adventure of Social Transformation, Political Revolution, and Personal Affirmation. Sandra spent four decades as a United Airlines flight attendant during a time when the U.S. was being reshaped by the Civil Rights Movement and the Women’s Movement. Along the way she met cultural icons, witnessed historic events, and navigated racism...
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Do We Still Need to Talk About Race?
Everyday Conversations on Race
In this episode of , host Simma Lieberman welcomes Verna Williams, CEO of , former law professor, and former dean, for a powerful conversation about race, justice, and access to legal representation in America. Verna explains why race remains a necessary topic—not to assign personal blame, but to understand how systems shaped by slavery and segregation continue to influence opportunity and social hierarchy today. She reflects on growing up in the Washington, DC and Maryland area, attending both predominantly white and predominantly Black schools. Those experiences sharpened her awareness of...
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Can Women of Color and White Women Be Friends?
Everyday Conversations on Race
From Fear to Friendship: The 30-Year Journey of an Interracial Women's Circle What does it really take for women across race, identity, and experience to move from awkward conversations to real friendship? In this episode, I talk with two people I deeply respect—Julie O’Mara and Dr. Sid Reel—about a women’s circle I’m part of that’s been meeting for nearly 30 years. What started as a conference breakout session turned into something far more rare: a space where white women and women of color stayed in relationship through grief, anger, mistakes, growth, and joy. We talk...
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What Was DEI Actually Meant to Do—and Why Did It Go Off Track?
Everyday Conversations on Race
A Conversation with Joe Santana; a DEI original Would you agree that most conversations about DEI today sound loud, polarized, and disconnected from the work itself? In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, I talk with Joe Santana—advisor, author, and long-time DEI consultant—about where Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion actually came from and how it was originally practiced inside organizations. What really is DEI, (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion)? Joe and I have both spent decades doing this work. We’ve watched DEI evolve, get renamed, repackaged, misunderstood, and in some...
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Curiosity, Not Cancellation: Real Talk with Dr. Julie Pham
Everyday Conversations on Race
What happens when curiosity replaces fear? In this powerful and honest conversation, Simma Lieberman and Dr. Julie Pham, author of "7 Forms of Respect: A Guide to Transforming Your Communication and Relationships at Work", explore how curiosity helps us talk about race, identity, and respect without shame or defensiveness. They remind us that inclusion begins with wonder—and that respect isn’t fixed, it’s alive. Simma and Dr. Julie Pham dive into the idea of curiosity as a practice—a mindset we can bring to every interaction. They discuss how we each hold multiple identities, why...
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Voices of Triumph: Stories of African Women Immigrants in America
Everyday Conversations on Race
Join Simma, the Inclusionist, as she hosts an illuminating conversation with Dr. Nneka and Dr. Angela, two Nigerian-born, U.S.-based doctors and authors. They discuss their empowering book, '' which chronicles challenges and triumphs faced by African women immigrants. Delve into personal anecdotes of overcoming adversity, the significance of community, cultural impact, and the importance of recognizing self-worth. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in bridging cultural divides and celebrating resilience. 00:00 Introduction and Podcast Overview 01:09 Meet the Guests:...
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Black Health Matters: Community, Data, and the Journey to Wellness with Kwame Terra
Everyday Conversations on Race
How do we close the health gap in Black communities? In this episode, Simma Lieberman (“The Inclusionist”) talks with bEHR Health founder Kwame Terra about the urgent need for health equity, the power of community, and the real stories behind the statistics. From breaking world records to building a movement, this conversation will challenge, inspire, and empower you. Timestamps & Key Segments:00:00 – Introduction: Why Black Health Matters 02:15 – Meet Kwame Terra: From Runner to Health Equity Leader 07:30 – The Shocking Truth About Health Disparities 15:00 – bEHR Health:...
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What Might Be: Friendship, Race, and Transforming Power
Everyday Conversations on Race
How Two Legal Changemakers Are Redefining Leadership, Collaboration, and Racial Justice in a Divided World In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman is joined by Professor Susan Sturm of Columbia Law School, and community change agent Richard Gray of the Center for Collaborative Education. These longtime collaborators talk candidly about their friendship across race, the evolution of their leadership work, and how confronting racism means more than just talking about it. They explore how white people can genuinely show up in racial justice work, the difference between...
info_outlineHave you ever felt challenged or questioned because of your race? In this episode of Everyday Conversations on Race, Simma Lieberman welcomes Shari Dunn, author of Qualified: How Competency Checking and Race Collide at Work.
Explore how race affects perceptions of competence and the real-world impacts of systemic racism in the workplace. You'll understand how racist competency checks can impede merit-based hiring. With personal anecdotes and historical insights, Shari Dunn sheds light on how people of color, especially Black women, face unfair scrutiny and bias in their professional lives. Discover why it's crucial to talk about race, debunk myths of a colorblind society, and take actionable steps toward creating inclusive work cultures. Tune in for a heartfelt and informative cross-race discussion and hear what we can do to unite and bring people together across differences. Learn more about this important topic and share this episode to help grow the conversation.
00:00 Introduction to the Podcast
00:53 Meet Shari Dunn: Author of 'Qualified'
02:05 Shari Dunn's Varied Career Background
03:19 The Concept of Competency Checking
03:58 The Importance of Discussing Race
04:26 Historical Context and Colorblindness
06:51 Merit-Based Society: Fact or Fiction?
08:39 Personal Experiences and Systemic Barriers
19:40 The Toll of Racism on Health
22:20 Examples of Competency Checking
29:03 The Cost of White Supremacy
30:29 The Exercise: Labels and Leadership
32:13 The Great Man Theory of Leadership
33:56 Imposter Syndrome and Workplace Dynamics
35:13 The Danger of Misplaced Leadership
38:13 White Supremacy's Impact on White People
39:52 Stories of Competency Checking
47:31 The Concept of Whiteness and Blackness
50:51 Actions to Combat Competency Checking
54:14 Conclusion and Contact Information
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Simma Lieberman, The Inclusionist, helps leaders create inclusive cultures. She is a consultant, speaker, and facilitator. Simma is the creator and host of the podcast, Everyday Conversations on Race.
Contact Simma@SimmaLieberman.com to get more information, book her as a speaker for your next event, help you become a more inclusive leader, or facilitate dialogues across differences.
Go to www.simmalieberman.com and www.raceconvo.com for more information
Simma is a member of and inspired by the global organization IAC (Inclusion Allies Coalition)
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