Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team

Get the latest science and research for the wine industry with Sustainable Winegrowing. Vineyard Team brings you the experts on resource issues and business trends related to sustainable agriculture to help you put sustainability into practice. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

301: Turning Sustainability into Sales | Marketing Tip Monday 02/23/2026

300: From Sour Rot to Succession Planning: Craig Macmillan's Favorite Podcast Moments 02/19/2026

299: A Winery, a Festival, and a $150,000 Investment in Music Education | Sustainable Story 02/09/2026

298: How Cover Crops Shape Grapevine Root Systems 02/05/2026

297: Consumers Want Sustainable Wine—Here’s How to Be Seen | Marketing Tip Monday 01/26/2026

296: Using Lasers for Bird Pest Management 01/15/2026

295: Wine Law Essentials: Contracts, TTB, Social Media & More 01/01/2026

294: Rooted in Community: Winery Stories of Generosity | Marketing Tip Monday 12/22/2025

293: How Solar Panels Can Improve Vine Resilience and Wine Balance 12/18/2025

292: Testing Vinifera vs. Hybrids: Which Survives Climate Stress Better? 12/04/2025

290: Fighting Powdery Mildew with UVC Light 11/20/2025

291: 3 Eco Buzzwords You Didn't Know Are Sustainable | Marketing Tip Monday 11/17/2025

289: How Spotted Lanternfly Puts Grapes at Risk—and What Growers Can Do 11/06/2025

288: Why Now Is the Time to Promote Your Sustainable Certification 10/27/2025

287: Dry Farming Vineyards: Where It Works and How to Begin 10/16/2025

286: To Till or Not to Till: Impacts on Soil, Vines, and Vineyard Budgets 10/02/2025

BONUS: Regenerative Farming, Irrigation Efficiency, and Agroforestry Tips from Kevin Rost 09/25/2025

285: 4 Essential Social Media Marketing Tips to Boost Your Brand _MTM 09/22/2025

284: SGMA Demystified - Acronyms, Deadlines, and What You Need to Know 09/18/2025

283: Developing Cold-Hardy Grapes with 23andMe Technology 09/04/2025

282: 5 Smart Ways Wineries Can Use AI to Save Time and Stay Creative | Marketing Tip Monday 08/25/2025

281: How Rootstock Impacts Vine Drought Tolerance and Longevity 08/21/2025

280: How to Write a Wine Industry Press Release That Actually Gets Picked Up 08/07/2025

279: 3 Ways to Improve Your Customer Experience | Marketing Tip Monday 07/28/2025

278: Fungicide Resistance in Powdery and Downy Mildew: 10 Years of Vineyard Research 07/17/2025

277: Tainted or Toasted? Decoding Smoke Markers in Wine 07/03/2025

276: The Business Case for Employee Engagement in the Wine Industry | Marketing Tip Monday 06/23/2025

275: Pest Friends: The IPM Simulator Changing How Farmers Think 06/19/2025

274: Beyond Foxy: The Case for Hybrid Winegrapes 06/05/2025

274: Beyond Foxy: The Case for Hybrid Winegrapes Can hybrid grapes revolutionize the wine world? Adam Huss — Host of the Beyond Organic podcast and Co-owner of Centralas Cellars breaks down what a hybrid truly is, explaining how traditional breeding — and nature itself — has long crossed grape species. With over 70 grape species worldwide, today's modern hybrids are the result of generations of crossing, backcrossing, and innovation. We explore the impact of WWII on agriculture, France’s ban on hybrids in appellation wines, and why developing new hybrids is critical for disease resistance, flavor discovery, and more sustainable farming. Plus, Adam shares insights into trialing the “married vine” system — a potential game-changer for soil health, pest management, and flavor expression. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:03] Beth Vukmanic: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director [00:00:13] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever. SIP Certified Winery speaks with Adam Huss, host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and co-owner of Centralis Cellars. [00:00:32] Adam breaks down what a hybrid truly is, explaining how traditional breeding and nature itself has long crossed grape species with over 70 grape species worldwide. Today's modern hybrids are the result of generations of crossing, backcrossing, and innovation. [00:00:50] We explore the impact of World War II on agriculture, France's ban on hybrids and Appalachian wines, and why developing new hybrids is critical for disease resistance, flavor discovery, and more sustainable farming. [00:01:03] Plus, Adam shares insights into trialing the married vine system, a potential game changer for soil health, pest management, and flavor expression. [00:01:12] When Lizbeth didn't get into nursing school on her first try, she could have given up. Instead, she partnered with her mentor Alex, to make a new plan, attend classes part-time, build up her resume and get hands-on hospital work experience. Now Lizbeth has been accepted into Cuesta College's nursing program and her dream of becoming a nurse is back on track. [00:01:36] Lizbeth is a Vineyard Team, Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholar. You can help more students like her who are the children of Vineyard and winery workers reach their dreams of earning a degree by donating to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. Just go to vineyardteam.org/donate. [00:01:53] Now let's listen in. [00:01:58] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Adam Huss. He is the host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and also co-owner of Centralis Winery in Los Angeles, California. And today we're gonna talk about hybrid grape varieties. Welcome to the podcast, Adam. [00:02:11] Adam Huss: Thanks, Craig. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. [00:02:17] Craig Macmillan: So let's just start with the basics. What are hybrid grape varieties? [00:02:22] Adam Huss: I should also say I'm a fan of your podcast as well, so it's really fun to be here. [00:02:26] Craig Macmillan: Thank you. Thank you. [00:02:28] Adam Huss: Been listening for a while. So hybrids, I mean, it's really simple. It's funny, I see stuff on Instagram sometimes where people just are so misinformed and they think that, you know, hybrid means like GMO or something like that. [00:02:41] A hybrid simply is just, you take pollen from grape X, you put it on flowers from grape y, and if those two grapes are from different species, you have a hybrid. If they're from the same species, you just have a cross, and this is something that has been part of traditional breeding since forever. It's also what happens naturally in the wild. [00:03:00] Or I hate, I actually just use two words I try not to use at all, which is like natural and wild, but in forests and streams forests and backyards without human intervention, these pollen get exchanged by wind and everything else and have led to, you know, some of the more. Old popular varieties of grapes that are, considered hybrids that we know of now, like Norton and Isabella and Kaaba. [00:03:23] Nobody actually crossed them. They just happened. So yeah, that's, that's a hybrid. It's very simple. [00:03:29] Craig Macmillan: That's what they are, what aren't they and what are some of the myths surrounding them? [00:03:33] Adam Huss: yeah, great question. You can't generalize about hybrids. Generally speaking. So that's really important thing for people to wrap their heads around, which is because. You know, we'll get into this, but so much, so many hybrids are, and just hybrids in general, are wrapped up in prejudice because we live in this sort of viniferous centric wine world. [00:03:56] You know, , those of us who are in wine, but there, you just can't generalize. The qualities of hybrids are just like humans. Like it depends on what your parents are. You know, you, you get different things every time you mix 'em up and you're not like your brother or sister. If you have a sibling, you know you're gonna be different from them even though you have the same parents. [00:04:13] So that's the same thing happens with grapes. There's genetic diversity and mutation happens and. For hybrids, , the possibilities, the potentials are literally infinite. It's pretty incredible to know that possibility exists. There are over 70 species of grapes on earth besides vitus vara, and if you cross any of those two varieties, yeah, you'll get a genetic cross that's 50 50 of, of two different species. [00:04:40] But that. Within that you could do that cross again and get a different variety of grape, even with the same cross. So it's just amazing. [00:04:51] The modern hybrids that are now out there are. Often multi-species crosses and have been crossed. Generationally again and again and back crossed and recrossed. And so, you know, I was just looking at a hybrid grape that had five species of grapes in its family tree. I mean, there are family trees that would make the royals blush, honestly, in some of these hybrids. [00:05:11] So it's not, it's not something that is just, can be just said. You can say one thing about it or that. And, and the idea of hybridizing doesn't imply anything at all, really, like it is just this process that happens that we've been doing for a long time. This might be a good thing to dispel some of the prejudices. [00:05:34] You know, something like the word foxy often gets thrown around when we start talking about hybrids. I did a whole podcast about this what's really interesting, I just brought this word up to a, a young couple here in LA who are growing grapes and they, they had no idea what I was talking about. [00:05:49] So that's kind of encouraging. Like in, in the younger generations, these prejudices and some of these words that we inherited from the last century , are dying out truly. Which is great, but it still persists and you still hear it a lot and. If anybody goes online and researches some of these grapes, so much of the information available online is actually still misinformation and prejudiced because it comes from this vinifirous centric culture. [00:06:15] And so it's really important for people to understand that like foxy is not what it sounds like. It sounds like it would be this animalistic, musky, maybe scent gland tinged aroma, flavor thing, but. If you taste the grapes that are known as foxy and you go, you know, start researching this by tasting, you'll find that it's actually kind of delicious. [00:06:37] It's usually fruity and you know, candy like strawberry raspberry flavors. And for those of us in the US. It's often something we associate with Grapiness because of Welchs. And the flavors of Welchs, which come from the Concord grape, which is a Foxy grape, are these grapey flavors that we grew up with. [00:06:57] This sense of like grape candy and stuff like that. And that's a lot of times what you find in these, but again, it depends a lot on. The level of the compounds that are in that specific hybrid. Again, you can't, you can't generalize. And just like with anything, if you mix different compounds together, you'll get these nuances and you might have some of that flavor or aroma, but it'll be blended with other things. [00:07:17] And so it takes on new characteristics. So it's way more complex than just thinking like a. All grapes that are hybridized are foxy. That's absolutely not true. Or that foxy is this monolithic thing or that foxy is bad. None of those are true. And then really the other thing to realize is in. Grapes in the native North American varieties of species of grapes. [00:07:41] There's really only one that has been used traditionally in grape breeding and hybridization that has these flavors. And that's Vitus labrusca. It just happened to be used quite a bit because it's endemic to the East coast where a lot of the Europeans who started all this breeding were living and, and it was, you know, very readily apparent in the forest of the East coast. [00:07:59] So that. Got used a lot and it's also got a lot of great qualities of fungal resistance and stuff like that. Muscadine is the other grape that has it, but it's got a different genetic structure so it doesn't get crossed a lot or hybridized a lot. [00:08:11] Craig Macmillan: So like, what are the advantages of hybrids where you take vinifira and you cross it with a Native American indigenous grape? What are the benefits? [00:08:21] Adam Huss: Yeah. Another great question. Just , the historical perspective on this is really important. I think. So, you know, Europeans came here a couple hundred years ago, and eventually they brought some of their favorite plants over, one of which were their grapes. And what they noticed right away is that their grapes, I. [00:08:38] Suffered and died without exception, just across the board. Anything they brought over grape wise just kept dying, kept dying. You know, many people tried for a century at least, you know, including people like Thomas Jefferson, people with enormous amounts of resources, and they just failed. They failed to grow these grapes. [00:08:56] Meanwhile, you know, these things like. Norton, this, these hybridized grapes started developing and people noticed like, oh, this grape, it's crossing with some of , the local varieties and it's doing really well. So they began to realize, like they didn't know then that part of, one of the benefits that you get is phylloxera resistance, for example. [00:09:16] But that was a big one and came to save, you know, Europe's wine industry at the end of the 19th century. But also you have these grapes that . Evolved with the fungal pathogens of this, of these climates of North America and other places around the planet. So they've developed resistance and tolerance for all these things. [00:09:38] And so when you cross them with vinifira, you get some of the desirable characteristics that you might like from Vera, and hopefully you'll get some of that, you know, hardiness and fungal resistance and some of the other, just. General benefits of having hybridized interesting new flavors and characteristics [00:09:56] Craig Macmillan: have you seen some examples of this in your, in your travels? [00:10:01] Adam Huss: the fungal resistance and things like [00:10:03] Craig Macmillan: resistance or Pierces disease resistance or anything like that. [00:10:07] Adam Huss: Oh yeah. I mean, I. Whew, so many. I mean, the fact that people can grow grapes organically in Vermont for example, relies almost entirely on hybrids. You know, first of all, they have extremely cold winters there. They have extremely wet, hot, humid summers there. And if you try to grow vinifera there the only way to do it is with chemicals and, and a lot of heartache and, and high risk agriculture. [00:10:35] But here we have somebody like Matt Niess, who's working entirely with hybrids, with his winery, north American Press, and basically he's not using any sprays in any of his vineyards in here in California because these. These grapes have genetics that developed for resistance to the fungal pathogens of the East Coast. [00:10:55] And so you bring them to this nice dry, you know, Mediterranean climate, they're just like, they're crazy. They're like you know, they're, you can basically spray free now. I mean, some people have a problem with zero sprays because they don't want things to develop, but he has a 70-year-old baco noir vineyard, for example, that's in like a wet region in Sonoma that. [00:11:18] He has never sprayed and it's pumping out grapes and looking beautiful every year. And the really interesting thing about it's, there are some inter plantations of vinfiera in that like somebody. Planted something. Maybe it was Pinot Noir in with the Baco. It's like one every, you know, like there's only a few, a handful of these scattered throughout the acre of the Baco noir, and you can tell which ones those are every year because they're just decimated by mildew by the end of the year, whereas the Baco is just spotless and beautiful. [00:11:46] So that's a really like obvious, [00:11:49] Craig Macmillan: What are the wines like? The bako noir? I've never had a bako noir. [00:11:53] Adam Huss: Oh, his wines. Well, so Baco is nice. It's, I mean, it's higher acid. It's almost like a high acid. Gosh, I don't know what, it's hard. I, I, I hate to go down the rabbit hole of like trying to compare it to a vinifira, but it is unique. But it's a deep red almost interior, like with deep purple, higher acid flavors, but pretty balanced, really luscious. Dark fruited flavors maybe a little. Like Syrah, like meatiness, there may be a touch. You might find that it depends on the year. He's had a couple different vintages, so it's been really interesting to see. I'm, I'm kinda like loving following that year by year, seeing the vintage variation and what. [00:12:35] Different things come out because nobody's really doing this. Nobody's, nobody's experimenting with these. So we don't really know how they'll do in, in California other than what he's doing. And just a couple other growers. But he also this year introduced awba for the first time back into California. [00:12:50] The last catawba Vines were ripped out of California in like the sixties, and he, planted some and finally was able to harvest a crop this year and released what was once. California, I mean, the America's most popular wine from the Ohio River Valley is sparkling catawba, and it's like pink and just delicious, beautiful, beautiful stuff. [00:13:10] If I can step back, I think a lot of the discussion of hybrids, again, comes from this perspective of vinifira culture and how do we. Help vinifera become better. How do we use these hybrids as a tool to help, you know, this sort of vinifira centric culture? But I, I would, I'd like to reframe it. [00:13:31] I think a better way to look at this is hybridization is kind of just what we always do with agriculture. It's how you evolve and adapt your agriculture. Ecologically in the absence of modern chemistry that we have. So like before World War ii, and part of, and this is part of the history, France's history too, is like, you know, we had RA decimating their, their vineyards as well as. , we didn't just bring phylloxera back from North America, we brought BlackRock, Downey mildew, powdery mildew. So , their vines were just like dying. Like they were just dying. And so there was this urgent need and a lot of the hybridization, a lot of, some of our, you know, hybrids like Save El Blanc and things like that. [00:14:15] Came from French breeders who were just trying to save the French wine industry. Like they just wanted to have wine, let alone vinifira. You know, it was that. It was pretty bad at the end of that set, you know? And so they developed these new things and then we, you know, things like Isabella and catawba and things like that were coming over from North America, some of our hybrids that came from here, and pretty soon they had these really productive, really hardy vines with new, interesting flavors that. [00:14:41] People kinda liked 'cause they are like fruity and delicious and interesting and new and, and if you're a farmer and you have less inputs and you get a more productive, like higher yields on your vine, like, it's just kind of a no-brainer. And so people were just planting these things. They really were taking off. [00:14:59] And in 1934, the French were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like our, our, first of all, our. Ancient vinifera cultures are going to be completely diluted, but second of all, we're gonna devalue the market 'cause we're gonna have all this like, it's too abundant, you know? So they made, in 1934, they made hybrids illegal in the French Appalachians. [00:15:17] And so that legacy is something that still sticks with us. Of course then World War II happened and we. Didn't really pay much attention to wine at all 'cause we were just trying to survive. But once World War II was over and the the war machine transferred into the pesticide and industrial agricultural machine, the French realized they could keep Vera alive on root stocks of American hybrids or American native varieties by spraying them with these new novel chemistry chemicals. [00:15:49] And so then they started enforcing the ban on hybrids because they could, and they knew they could have the, this alternative. And so that's when you saw like they had their own sort of version of reefer madness where you, you saw a lot of misinformation and hyperbole and outright propaganda and lies about these, these grapes because they were trying to get them out of French vineyards. [00:16:10] It's important to realize that Ban the EU just lifted the ban on hybrids in Appalachian wine in 2021. So it's kind of not surprising that some of these prejudices and misinformation still persist today. We're not too far away from that. I. [00:16:26] Craig Macmillan: And, and why was the band lifted? Do you know? [00:16:30] Adam Huss: That's a great question. It's, it was lifted for ecological reasons because they're realizing these are really important to dealing with climate change. This is like, if you want a sustainable industry, you need to be able to adapt. When you're inside this, this world of vinifira, what I call the vinifira culture, which is, you know, very centered on Vera. [00:16:50] You don't realize how strange it is. You know, it's kind of like growing up with a, a weird family, you know? It's all you know, so you don't know how strange they are until you start seeing the rest of the world. But to think that, you know, 50 years ago we just decided that maybe like. 10 grapes were the pinnacle of viticultural achievement for all time, and we've basically invested all of our energies into, you know, propagating those around the planet and preserving them at all costs is kind of strange when you think about the whole history of agriculture. [00:17:20] And it's really only possible because of cheep fossil fuels and the novel chemistry that we. Have put into our systems. And so if you take those out, if you start thinking ecologically about how do you develop a wine system, I mean the question is like, does it make sense when farming in a world where the only constant is change and we just live in a dynamic world, does it make sense to try to do everything you can to prevent change? [00:17:45] Like is... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/36455960

273: Learn How to Talk SIP with This Simple Framework | Marketing Tip Monday 05/26/2025

273: Learn How to Talk SIP with This Simple Framework | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Training season is fast approaching. It's time to get your hospitality staff prepared to welcome a range of guests from experienced enthusiasts to first timers. [00:00:10] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday. With SIP Certified. We know that your customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you show your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Most people rarely consider the complex agricultural processes behind their favorite products. Use this opportunity to offer something truly unique insight into what makes your wine sustainable. [00:00:42] Start by covering the basics of what sustainability is while you get to know your guest. Are they familiar with agriculture? Do they know that there is a relationship between the farm and the larger ecosystem? [00:00:53] Sustainability means meeting the needs of today while ensuring that future generations successfully meet theirs. We do this by caring for the three Ps. People, planet, and prosperity [00:01:06] people includes community involvement, charitable donations, continuing education and safety programs. [00:01:12] Planet includes habitat conservation plans, integrated pest management, cover crops, and responsible irrigation [00:01:20] prosperity includes sales and marketing plans, budgets, succession plans, and inventory and production records. [00:01:27] If you're SIP certified, you could explain why your brand is a part of a third party program. Specifically, SIP certified is a certification for sustainable wine growers and winemakers. It uses independent third party auditors to verify the brand's practices and records to ensure that they're meeting strict standards. [00:01:47] Now it's time to show how sustainability is specifically meaningful to your brand. This will help your guests understand what issues are important to you and what you're doing about them. [00:01:57] Follow these three simple steps. [00:01:59] One, download the sustainable story worksheet linked in the show notes. [00:02:04] Two, talk with your vineyard manager, winemaker or general manager to get an example of each of the seven values, which include social responsibility. Water management, safe pest management, energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving. [00:02:20] For example, attracting gopher hunting barn owls with barn owl boxes in the vineyard is a great example of safe pest management. And three, pick one value to focus on each month to share a fun story with your guests [00:02:35] if you want to get inspired. We've been collecting sustainable stories from our SIP certified members for the last three years. You can find all of those linked in the show notes. [00:02:45] And if you want to go deeper than the sustainable story worksheet, we have a great free online course that will help you learn what sustainability means in the wine industry and how to tell your own unique sustainable story. [00:02:58] Until next time. This is sustainable wine growing with the Vineyard team. Resources: – get inspired Sustainable Story Worksheet Vineyard Team Programs: /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/36632450

Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team

TOPICS