Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team

Get the latest science and research for the wine industry with Sustainable Winegrowing. Vineyard Team brings you the experts on resource issues and business trends related to sustainable agriculture to help you put sustainability into practice. Learn more at www.vineyardteam.org.

276: The Business Case for Employee Engagement in the Wine Industry | Marketing Tip Monday 06/23/2025

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274: Beyond Foxy: The Case for Hybrid Winegrapes 06/05/2025

274: Beyond Foxy: The Case for Hybrid Winegrapes Can hybrid grapes revolutionize the wine world? Adam Huss — Host of the Beyond Organic podcast and Co-owner of Centralas Cellars breaks down what a hybrid truly is, explaining how traditional breeding — and nature itself — has long crossed grape species. With over 70 grape species worldwide, today's modern hybrids are the result of generations of crossing, backcrossing, and innovation. We explore the impact of WWII on agriculture, France’s ban on hybrids in appellation wines, and why developing new hybrids is critical for disease resistance, flavor discovery, and more sustainable farming. Plus, Adam shares insights into trialing the “married vine” system — a potential game-changer for soil health, pest management, and flavor expression. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:03] Beth Vukmanic: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director [00:00:13] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever. SIP Certified Winery speaks with Adam Huss, host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and co-owner of Centralis Cellars. [00:00:32] Adam breaks down what a hybrid truly is, explaining how traditional breeding and nature itself has long crossed grape species with over 70 grape species worldwide. Today's modern hybrids are the result of generations of crossing, backcrossing, and innovation. [00:00:50] We explore the impact of World War II on agriculture, France's ban on hybrids and Appalachian wines, and why developing new hybrids is critical for disease resistance, flavor discovery, and more sustainable farming. [00:01:03] Plus, Adam shares insights into trialing the married vine system, a potential game changer for soil health, pest management, and flavor expression. [00:01:12] When Lizbeth didn't get into nursing school on her first try, she could have given up. Instead, she partnered with her mentor Alex, to make a new plan, attend classes part-time, build up her resume and get hands-on hospital work experience. Now Lizbeth has been accepted into Cuesta College's nursing program and her dream of becoming a nurse is back on track. [00:01:36] Lizbeth is a Vineyard Team, Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholar. You can help more students like her who are the children of Vineyard and winery workers reach their dreams of earning a degree by donating to the Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship. Just go to vineyardteam.org/donate. [00:01:53] Now let's listen in. [00:01:58] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Adam Huss. He is the host of the Beyond Organic Podcast and also co-owner of Centralis Winery in Los Angeles, California. And today we're gonna talk about hybrid grape varieties. Welcome to the podcast, Adam. [00:02:11] Adam Huss: Thanks, Craig. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. [00:02:17] Craig Macmillan: So let's just start with the basics. What are hybrid grape varieties? [00:02:22] Adam Huss: I should also say I'm a fan of your podcast as well, so it's really fun to be here. [00:02:26] Craig Macmillan: Thank you. Thank you. [00:02:28] Adam Huss: Been listening for a while. So hybrids, I mean, it's really simple. It's funny, I see stuff on Instagram sometimes where people just are so misinformed and they think that, you know, hybrid means like GMO or something like that. [00:02:41] A hybrid simply is just, you take pollen from grape X, you put it on flowers from grape y, and if those two grapes are from different species, you have a hybrid. If they're from the same species, you just have a cross, and this is something that has been part of traditional breeding since forever. It's also what happens naturally in the wild. [00:03:00] Or I hate, I actually just use two words I try not to use at all, which is like natural and wild, but in forests and streams forests and backyards without human intervention, these pollen get exchanged by wind and everything else and have led to, you know, some of the more. Old popular varieties of grapes that are, considered hybrids that we know of now, like Norton and Isabella and Kaaba. [00:03:23] Nobody actually crossed them. They just happened. So yeah, that's, that's a hybrid. It's very simple. [00:03:29] Craig Macmillan: That's what they are, what aren't they and what are some of the myths surrounding them? [00:03:33] Adam Huss: yeah, great question. You can't generalize about hybrids. Generally speaking. So that's really important thing for people to wrap their heads around, which is because. You know, we'll get into this, but so much, so many hybrids are, and just hybrids in general, are wrapped up in prejudice because we live in this sort of viniferous centric wine world. [00:03:56] You know, , those of us who are in wine, but there, you just can't generalize. The qualities of hybrids are just like humans. Like it depends on what your parents are. You know, you, you get different things every time you mix 'em up and you're not like your brother or sister. If you have a sibling, you know you're gonna be different from them even though you have the same parents. [00:04:13] So that's the same thing happens with grapes. There's genetic diversity and mutation happens and. For hybrids, , the possibilities, the potentials are literally infinite. It's pretty incredible to know that possibility exists. There are over 70 species of grapes on earth besides vitus vara, and if you cross any of those two varieties, yeah, you'll get a genetic cross that's 50 50 of, of two different species. [00:04:40] But that. Within that you could do that cross again and get a different variety of grape, even with the same cross. So it's just amazing. [00:04:51] The modern hybrids that are now out there are. Often multi-species crosses and have been crossed. Generationally again and again and back crossed and recrossed. And so, you know, I was just looking at a hybrid grape that had five species of grapes in its family tree. I mean, there are family trees that would make the royals blush, honestly, in some of these hybrids. [00:05:11] So it's not, it's not something that is just, can be just said. You can say one thing about it or that. And, and the idea of hybridizing doesn't imply anything at all, really, like it is just this process that happens that we've been doing for a long time. This might be a good thing to dispel some of the prejudices. [00:05:34] You know, something like the word foxy often gets thrown around when we start talking about hybrids. I did a whole podcast about this what's really interesting, I just brought this word up to a, a young couple here in LA who are growing grapes and they, they had no idea what I was talking about. [00:05:49] So that's kind of encouraging. Like in, in the younger generations, these prejudices and some of these words that we inherited from the last century , are dying out truly. Which is great, but it still persists and you still hear it a lot and. If anybody goes online and researches some of these grapes, so much of the information available online is actually still misinformation and prejudiced because it comes from this vinifirous centric culture. [00:06:15] And so it's really important for people to understand that like foxy is not what it sounds like. It sounds like it would be this animalistic, musky, maybe scent gland tinged aroma, flavor thing, but. If you taste the grapes that are known as foxy and you go, you know, start researching this by tasting, you'll find that it's actually kind of delicious. [00:06:37] It's usually fruity and you know, candy like strawberry raspberry flavors. And for those of us in the US. It's often something we associate with Grapiness because of Welchs. And the flavors of Welchs, which come from the Concord grape, which is a Foxy grape, are these grapey flavors that we grew up with. [00:06:57] This sense of like grape candy and stuff like that. And that's a lot of times what you find in these, but again, it depends a lot on. The level of the compounds that are in that specific hybrid. Again, you can't, you can't generalize. And just like with anything, if you mix different compounds together, you'll get these nuances and you might have some of that flavor or aroma, but it'll be blended with other things. [00:07:17] And so it takes on new characteristics. So it's way more complex than just thinking like a. All grapes that are hybridized are foxy. That's absolutely not true. Or that foxy is this monolithic thing or that foxy is bad. None of those are true. And then really the other thing to realize is in. Grapes in the native North American varieties of species of grapes. [00:07:41] There's really only one that has been used traditionally in grape breeding and hybridization that has these flavors. And that's Vitus labrusca. It just happened to be used quite a bit because it's endemic to the East coast where a lot of the Europeans who started all this breeding were living and, and it was, you know, very readily apparent in the forest of the East coast. [00:07:59] So that. Got used a lot and it's also got a lot of great qualities of fungal resistance and stuff like that. Muscadine is the other grape that has it, but it's got a different genetic structure so it doesn't get crossed a lot or hybridized a lot. [00:08:11] Craig Macmillan: So like, what are the advantages of hybrids where you take vinifira and you cross it with a Native American indigenous grape? What are the benefits? [00:08:21] Adam Huss: Yeah. Another great question. Just , the historical perspective on this is really important. I think. So, you know, Europeans came here a couple hundred years ago, and eventually they brought some of their favorite plants over, one of which were their grapes. And what they noticed right away is that their grapes, I. [00:08:38] Suffered and died without exception, just across the board. Anything they brought over grape wise just kept dying, kept dying. You know, many people tried for a century at least, you know, including people like Thomas Jefferson, people with enormous amounts of resources, and they just failed. They failed to grow these grapes. [00:08:56] Meanwhile, you know, these things like. Norton, this, these hybridized grapes started developing and people noticed like, oh, this grape, it's crossing with some of , the local varieties and it's doing really well. So they began to realize, like they didn't know then that part of, one of the benefits that you get is phylloxera resistance, for example. [00:09:16] But that was a big one and came to save, you know, Europe's wine industry at the end of the 19th century. But also you have these grapes that . Evolved with the fungal pathogens of this, of these climates of North America and other places around the planet. So they've developed resistance and tolerance for all these things. [00:09:38] And so when you cross them with vinifira, you get some of the desirable characteristics that you might like from Vera, and hopefully you'll get some of that, you know, hardiness and fungal resistance and some of the other, just. General benefits of having hybridized interesting new flavors and characteristics [00:09:56] Craig Macmillan: have you seen some examples of this in your, in your travels? [00:10:01] Adam Huss: the fungal resistance and things like [00:10:03] Craig Macmillan: resistance or Pierces disease resistance or anything like that. [00:10:07] Adam Huss: Oh yeah. I mean, I. Whew, so many. I mean, the fact that people can grow grapes organically in Vermont for example, relies almost entirely on hybrids. You know, first of all, they have extremely cold winters there. They have extremely wet, hot, humid summers there. And if you try to grow vinifera there the only way to do it is with chemicals and, and a lot of heartache and, and high risk agriculture. [00:10:35] But here we have somebody like Matt Niess, who's working entirely with hybrids, with his winery, north American Press, and basically he's not using any sprays in any of his vineyards in here in California because these. These grapes have genetics that developed for resistance to the fungal pathogens of the East Coast. [00:10:55] And so you bring them to this nice dry, you know, Mediterranean climate, they're just like, they're crazy. They're like you know, they're, you can basically spray free now. I mean, some people have a problem with zero sprays because they don't want things to develop, but he has a 70-year-old baco noir vineyard, for example, that's in like a wet region in Sonoma that. [00:11:18] He has never sprayed and it's pumping out grapes and looking beautiful every year. And the really interesting thing about it's, there are some inter plantations of vinfiera in that like somebody. Planted something. Maybe it was Pinot Noir in with the Baco. It's like one every, you know, like there's only a few, a handful of these scattered throughout the acre of the Baco noir, and you can tell which ones those are every year because they're just decimated by mildew by the end of the year, whereas the Baco is just spotless and beautiful. [00:11:46] So that's a really like obvious, [00:11:49] Craig Macmillan: What are the wines like? The bako noir? I've never had a bako noir. [00:11:53] Adam Huss: Oh, his wines. Well, so Baco is nice. It's, I mean, it's higher acid. It's almost like a high acid. Gosh, I don't know what, it's hard. I, I, I hate to go down the rabbit hole of like trying to compare it to a vinifira, but it is unique. But it's a deep red almost interior, like with deep purple, higher acid flavors, but pretty balanced, really luscious. Dark fruited flavors maybe a little. Like Syrah, like meatiness, there may be a touch. You might find that it depends on the year. He's had a couple different vintages, so it's been really interesting to see. I'm, I'm kinda like loving following that year by year, seeing the vintage variation and what. [00:12:35] Different things come out because nobody's really doing this. Nobody's, nobody's experimenting with these. So we don't really know how they'll do in, in California other than what he's doing. And just a couple other growers. But he also this year introduced awba for the first time back into California. [00:12:50] The last catawba Vines were ripped out of California in like the sixties, and he, planted some and finally was able to harvest a crop this year and released what was once. California, I mean, the America's most popular wine from the Ohio River Valley is sparkling catawba, and it's like pink and just delicious, beautiful, beautiful stuff. [00:13:10] If I can step back, I think a lot of the discussion of hybrids, again, comes from this perspective of vinifira culture and how do we. Help vinifera become better. How do we use these hybrids as a tool to help, you know, this sort of vinifira centric culture? But I, I would, I'd like to reframe it. [00:13:31] I think a better way to look at this is hybridization is kind of just what we always do with agriculture. It's how you evolve and adapt your agriculture. Ecologically in the absence of modern chemistry that we have. So like before World War ii, and part of, and this is part of the history, France's history too, is like, you know, we had RA decimating their, their vineyards as well as. , we didn't just bring phylloxera back from North America, we brought BlackRock, Downey mildew, powdery mildew. So , their vines were just like dying. Like they were just dying. And so there was this urgent need and a lot of the hybridization, a lot of, some of our, you know, hybrids like Save El Blanc and things like that. [00:14:15] Came from French breeders who were just trying to save the French wine industry. Like they just wanted to have wine, let alone vinifira. You know, it was that. It was pretty bad at the end of that set, you know? And so they developed these new things and then we, you know, things like Isabella and catawba and things like that were coming over from North America, some of our hybrids that came from here, and pretty soon they had these really productive, really hardy vines with new, interesting flavors that. [00:14:41] People kinda liked 'cause they are like fruity and delicious and interesting and new and, and if you're a farmer and you have less inputs and you get a more productive, like higher yields on your vine, like, it's just kind of a no-brainer. And so people were just planting these things. They really were taking off. [00:14:59] And in 1934, the French were like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like our, our, first of all, our. Ancient vinifera cultures are going to be completely diluted, but second of all, we're gonna devalue the market 'cause we're gonna have all this like, it's too abundant, you know? So they made, in 1934, they made hybrids illegal in the French Appalachians. [00:15:17] And so that legacy is something that still sticks with us. Of course then World War II happened and we. Didn't really pay much attention to wine at all 'cause we were just trying to survive. But once World War II was over and the the war machine transferred into the pesticide and industrial agricultural machine, the French realized they could keep Vera alive on root stocks of American hybrids or American native varieties by spraying them with these new novel chemistry chemicals. [00:15:49] And so then they started enforcing the ban on hybrids because they could, and they knew they could have the, this alternative. And so that's when you saw like they had their own sort of version of reefer madness where you, you saw a lot of misinformation and hyperbole and outright propaganda and lies about these, these grapes because they were trying to get them out of French vineyards. [00:16:10] It's important to realize that Ban the EU just lifted the ban on hybrids in Appalachian wine in 2021. So it's kind of not surprising that some of these prejudices and misinformation still persist today. We're not too far away from that. I. [00:16:26] Craig Macmillan: And, and why was the band lifted? Do you know? [00:16:30] Adam Huss: That's a great question. It's, it was lifted for ecological reasons because they're realizing these are really important to dealing with climate change. This is like, if you want a sustainable industry, you need to be able to adapt. When you're inside this, this world of vinifira, what I call the vinifira culture, which is, you know, very centered on Vera. [00:16:50] You don't realize how strange it is. You know, it's kind of like growing up with a, a weird family, you know? It's all you know, so you don't know how strange they are until you start seeing the rest of the world. But to think that, you know, 50 years ago we just decided that maybe like. 10 grapes were the pinnacle of viticultural achievement for all time, and we've basically invested all of our energies into, you know, propagating those around the planet and preserving them at all costs is kind of strange when you think about the whole history of agriculture. [00:17:20] And it's really only possible because of cheep fossil fuels and the novel chemistry that we. Have put into our systems. And so if you take those out, if you start thinking ecologically about how do you develop a wine system, I mean the question is like, does it make sense when farming in a world where the only constant is change and we just live in a dynamic world, does it make sense to try to do everything you can to prevent change? [00:17:45] Like is... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/36455960

273: Learn How to Talk SIP with This Simple Framework | Marketing Tip Monday 05/26/2025

273: Learn How to Talk SIP with This Simple Framework | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Training season is fast approaching. It's time to get your hospitality staff prepared to welcome a range of guests from experienced enthusiasts to first timers. [00:00:10] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday. With SIP Certified. We know that your customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you show your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Most people rarely consider the complex agricultural processes behind their favorite products. Use this opportunity to offer something truly unique insight into what makes your wine sustainable. [00:00:42] Start by covering the basics of what sustainability is while you get to know your guest. Are they familiar with agriculture? Do they know that there is a relationship between the farm and the larger ecosystem? [00:00:53] Sustainability means meeting the needs of today while ensuring that future generations successfully meet theirs. We do this by caring for the three Ps. People, planet, and prosperity [00:01:06] people includes community involvement, charitable donations, continuing education and safety programs. [00:01:12] Planet includes habitat conservation plans, integrated pest management, cover crops, and responsible irrigation [00:01:20] prosperity includes sales and marketing plans, budgets, succession plans, and inventory and production records. [00:01:27] If you're SIP certified, you could explain why your brand is a part of a third party program. Specifically, SIP certified is a certification for sustainable wine growers and winemakers. It uses independent third party auditors to verify the brand's practices and records to ensure that they're meeting strict standards. [00:01:47] Now it's time to show how sustainability is specifically meaningful to your brand. This will help your guests understand what issues are important to you and what you're doing about them. [00:01:57] Follow these three simple steps. [00:01:59] One, download the sustainable story worksheet linked in the show notes. [00:02:04] Two, talk with your vineyard manager, winemaker or general manager to get an example of each of the seven values, which include social responsibility. Water management, safe pest management, energy efficiency, habitat business, and always evolving. [00:02:20] For example, attracting gopher hunting barn owls with barn owl boxes in the vineyard is a great example of safe pest management. And three, pick one value to focus on each month to share a fun story with your guests [00:02:35] if you want to get inspired. We've been collecting sustainable stories from our SIP certified members for the last three years. You can find all of those linked in the show notes. [00:02:45] And if you want to go deeper than the sustainable story worksheet, we have a great free online course that will help you learn what sustainability means in the wine industry and how to tell your own unique sustainable story. [00:02:58] Until next time. This is sustainable wine growing with the Vineyard team. Resources: – get inspired Sustainable Story Worksheet Vineyard Team Programs: /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/36632450

272: 30 Gophers a Night: Why Barn Owls Belong in Your Vineyard 05/15/2025

272: 30 Gophers a Night: Why Barn Owls Belong in Your Vineyard Meet your vineyard night-shift rodent patrol —barn owls. Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care, shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle, nesting habits, and how to properly install nest boxes (hint: ventilation and road direction matter!). Discover how you can encourage barn owls to thrive on your land—plus, hear how these owls even foster orphaned chicks. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: Meet your vineyard, night shift Rodent patrol - barn owls. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director [00:00:18] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with longtime SIP Certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP Certified winery. Speaks with Bob Peak, a dedicated volunteer at Pacific Wildlife Care. [00:00:34] Bob shares how these incredible predators consume up to 30 gophers or voles a night. Learn fun facts about their short lifecycle nesting habitats, and how to properly install nest boxes, hint, ventilation, and road direction matter. [00:00:50] Discover how you could encourage barn owls to thrive on your land plus. Here how these owls even foster orphaned chicks. [00:00:58] If you love this topic and want to learn even more about barn owls, you won't want to miss the June 6th, 2025 tailgate on bird abatement and managing wildlife in the vineyard. [00:01:09] Hosted at Jackson Family Wines Bar M Vineyard in Los Alamos, California. We'll see a live falconry demonstration and learn the latest barn owl research from California Polytechnic State University, including how changes in vineyard habitat affect foraging behavior. To register, just go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes. [00:01:33] Now, let's listen in. [00:01:38] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Bob Peak. He is a volunteer with Pacific Wildlife care in SLO County, California. And today we're gonna talk about barn owls. Thanks for being on the podcast, Bob. [00:01:48] Bob Peak: Thank you very much Craig, and I want to thank you and the Niner Wine Estates for this invitation. I think that this going to be very informative and quite fascinating actually. [00:02:00] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, so I'll give you a little bit of background on that. I met Bob, when he came out to Niner Wine estates, looking for clutches, looking for looking for outlets, and we learned all kinds of fascinating things. And I was like, I have got to talk to this guy on the podcast 'cause there's so much information and interesting things about barn owls that I didn't know, until a couple months ago. [00:02:23] But why don't we start with you telling us a little bit about, pacific wildlife Care. [00:02:28] Bob Peak: Yes. Pacific Wildlife Care was started 41 years ago here in the county by home rehabbers. There was no facility. People did their work in their specialty right out of their home, whether it was raccoons or opossums. We people tended to have a different skill that they were good at, and it started with very humble beginnings. [00:02:51] We finally reached a point where we could afford a facility and we went and occupied part of the PG&E power plant there in Morrow Bay. We are right next door to the Marine Mammal Center, if anyone knows where that is, and we are right now in the process of having to move as they are, also as there are plans coming up for the property. [00:03:17] We currently have had some donors step up and provide us with not only the 10 acres of land on Buckley Road in San Luis Obispo, but we are also very quickly in the process of building a brand new facility out there. [00:03:35] Craig Macmillan: That is really great. There's definitely a need for this. How did you personally become involved in wildlife rehabilitation? [00:03:43] Bob Peak: I needed something to do after I retired and I literally, I saw an ad in the Tribune, a local paper that said that they were looking for volunteers and I had had some experience with the birds of prey as a a child. I have a Native American background and they're a very important part of our culture. [00:04:04] we, we learned about them early on and the opportunity to work around people that were like-minded as far as with the animals in San Luis Bipo County was rather exciting. [00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: And so let's move on. Talk about barn owls specifically. Why is it important to encourage and protect barn owls? [00:04:24] Bob Peak: Ooh, that's a good question. barn owls are a species that really keep things in check. They're the balance to something that could get outta control very quickly. and I think we all see that, whether it's at our houses or at the wineries. And that's these, the rodents and other pests. That not only are harmful to us but they're harmful to our crops and even potential danger to us as well. [00:04:56] They are voracious eaters. They consume anywhere between six to eight voles or gophers a night. And that's each when a parent is feeding the young. That number can go up by times four. You could see that you might be 30 vols taken a night. So they do a tremendous job for the environment. And again, they, they're more of a checks and balances. [00:05:29] I think too that the more barn owls that you have in an area it means that you're basically protected. It's one of those things too where people also think the same way with the, the skunks or opossums and raccoons. They can be nuisances at times, but they serve a very good purpose in eliminating all kinds of pests, insects, and things that you don't want. [00:05:56] Craig Macmillan: What is the lifecycle of a barn owl? [00:06:00] Bob Peak: . I wrote a couple of notes down on this. The lifecycle is rather short for barn owl. The, they're cavity nesters, what happens is the, the barn owl parents make for life, they're monogamous. So they'll stick around they'll find a cavity barn or something that a box where they'll head in and lay anywhere between one and eight eggs. The incubation period is rather quick. [00:06:38] The breeding season is basically between late January and February for about six to eight weeks. , about a week and a half before the female laser eggs, she's nest bound. She's too heavy to fly. She can't even get out of the box. [00:06:53] Another thing that she does at that same time is she picks a little brood patch. On her belly to where she can remove those feathers. And once the young born, 'cause they have no feathers, she will put them right next to that skin of hers for the warmth that they're gonna need. [00:07:15] Incubation is 29 to about 34 days. Again, they could lay between one and eight eggs. And they can do that three times a year. They might just have one clutch of eight. They could have two or maybe even three if the conditions are right. [00:07:33] She'll turn these eggs every so many minutes and then it takes, oh, I would say, you know, like 29 to 34 days, [00:07:44] and then the chick to get out from the shell. The have this little hook on the end of their bill. It's an egg tooth that's on the end of their, bill. And then that will actually break the egg open and it does take a while for, it takes 12 to 36 hours for 'em to get out of that eggshell. Four to seven. [00:08:08] It'll be about four months before they'll see another. But brood, because once they leave, then they'll lay more eggs. [00:08:17] The four months will pass from the egg being laid to the young, gaining independence. That's it. And they pretty much don't receive much training from their parents. It's, they get out of the box and then they're on their own. Where a great horned owl will spend up to a year or more, even longer with their parents. [00:08:37] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:08:39] Bob Peak: A freshly hatched barnells Pink mentioned that know they hatch in sequence of the way that they were laid. [00:08:46] Craig Macmillan: Oh. [00:08:46] Bob Peak: The oldest could be three weeks old when the youngest hatches. So there is a. A challenge for food with that young one because that big one's gonna be going after it. So that's right off the bat. You know, you got some you know, some things working against you. [00:09:03] The downey Plumage starts to show up about three weeks later. They tend to clutch together and for that warmth till then. And then the female again, is taking the food brought by the male. The male is doing all the hunting. And the male will bring it in. The female will grab that food and rip it apart and feed it individually to each of the babies. Very small pieces [00:09:31] about the time they're two weeks old, they can stand on their own and they can actually eat whole prey. And now that's something to see on itself, to watch these little critters take a vole or a small mouse and swallow that you think they're gonna choke. It's quite. For a parent, you know, you're worried, you know [00:09:53] once the, the youngest chick can feed itself, then mom will leave the nest for hunting too. No longer needed to rip food. And then it takes both parents to feed those animals. And because each of the young ones are gonna need three or more mice themselves. On top of mom and dad eating each needing 8, 6, 7, or eight themselves. [00:10:23] Average time to fledge is about nine weeks. Fledgling means they basically are fully feathered and ready to take off to see the world. They can test their wings sometimes, but to do so a lot of times there's no perch. There's just basically the entry and exit hole. That's why we find 'em so many times on the ground. They're curious. They get close to that or sometimes they can get pushed out again. Most of the time when we receive them, it's because they've fallen out of a nest. [00:10:58] , if they are on the ground, they're pretty much doomed because. There's raccoons in your area, Craig. You've got Bobcat, you've got mountain lions, coyotes. We're trying to get them back into that box as soon as we can. [00:11:13] Fledglings will continue to be fed by the parents for about three months, maybe even a little longer. By. Oh, I would say November. The fledglings will have dispersed if they were laid in the summer and they found a territory settled into a new Nest site. But life is hard for the new ones. It's true of owls and it's true of the raptors, hawks, eagles and things. The survival rate is low. The survival rates can average 37 to 65%. [00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:11:54] Bob Peak: But the odds improve greatly. If they make it past their first year, they gotta get the skills down. Many young barnells starve to death. Typically, they'll live only another three or four, three years through typical lifespan. [00:12:09] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. [00:12:10] Bob Peak: The barn owls do not typically hunt close to their nest box. They like to leave, they like to go to open fields where they can fly low. Listening for rodents. A lot of times, again, we think of them as using their sight, but they have incredible hearing as well. Just look at those ears on a great horn owl. [00:12:31] The one of the reasons why they get into trouble as well, when they're going close to the ground or just flying after something, they're looking down and they're not looking ahead. That's why they could easily run into the side of a truck. On a side, you know, a highway and you see them very frequently on the side of the road. 'cause that's just what they did. They ran right into the side of it. They can run into power poles, they run into anything that's there in front of them they can run into. So it's, it can be dangerous. About 80% of fatalities are from traffic casualties, 80%. It is really important to keep your nest boxes away from the road and the highway and the entrance hole. Of course, we talked about this, Craig is always facing east and never facing a busy road. [00:13:27] Would you like me to talk about the nest box that we have come to? [00:13:32] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. First of all though, i, you know, you mentioned, mice and voles most of vineyards are interested in gophers. How important are gophers to their diet? [00:13:43] Bob Peak: Oh, extremely. They're, they're just like a vole. Very similar. They're like the, the same thing. They love gophers. I think that you'll find it in in vineyards like yours where you take a more natural approach to things. You're letting much Mother Nature do this work. And the gophers are very delicious for these barn owls they're meaty usually. The mice can be a little smaller, it's very good. That's why they prefer a gopher or a vol. [00:14:18] I know that some of the vineyards around also will spray and we talked about this you know, using no, , insecticides and things like that where yours is a, you know, a kind of a, a free zone and when you're spraying on the ground and things chemicals. Those are picked up by the rodents and things of that nature and transferred to the barn owl. So, another reason to take your approach to vineyard management. Very important step. It's, it keeps everything safe. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: Let's talk about barn owl nesting boxes now. You mentioned, you mentioned a couple of things. You said nightmare road. The opening facing east is preferable. Will they not nest if the opening is facing north or west or south? [00:15:08] Bob Peak: They will, but you're gonna expose them to wind and air and possibly rain that will you know, get in there. That's typical. Most of our, our, our weather fronts are coming from west to east, so it gives them a little added protection [00:15:26] also to that sun coming up in the morning. It gives some warmth into the box. Yeah, but those are, those are the, the real key points. [00:15:35] Another one too, craig, is to make sure that the box is well ventilated. It has to have ventilation holes throughout the box. It's best to have 'em on the floor so any liquid that does get in there can go through as well as on the side, so you can get a breeze through there. [00:15:55] Size also is very important. If you can think about having eight of those little barn outlets with two parents in there, you need a big box and for them to really thrive. [00:16:10] The larger the box, the better. The I've seen some boxes that are so small that it just, it gives the owl outlets less of a chance because they feel that they have to fight to survive a little more when there's not enough space. And I've heard of other owletes pushing other owletes out of the box just to increase their chances of survival. You know, it's kind of one of those survival of the fittest things. So the more room they have, the better it is for everyone. [00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How big is appropriate? [00:16:49] Bob Peak: I would say probably three feet by two feet, to three feet, and probably two to three feet tall. [00:16:58] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. That's a lot bigger than most of the boxes. I see. Yeah. [00:17:01] Bob Peak: They are, they're much bigger. We've looked at a lot of other facilities that rescue barn owls. [00:17:08] We've even gone over to England. They have a a, a program with their owls as well. They had one of the more interesting boxes. it had on the outside a platform. Purchase basically. So these young ones can get out there and see the world, test their wings and then get right back inside if they need to. [00:17:29] Much bigger boxes, much heavier to work with. Again, that was the thing that we found. We, it was just a heavy box, but it was exceptional. But it was big. And they need to be cleaned. So any box that's built needs to have an access port to where you can get into it every couple years and clean out the droppings which need to be done very carefully, because again, as you know, some animal droppings can cause us harm. So you wanna make sure you wear a mask. [00:18:01] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:18:02] Bob Peak: Again there's all kinds of issues and that, or, discussions about having a perch on the outside or ledge on the outside of that box. [00:18:12] It's nice because they can get out there, have a chance of getting out and getting right back in and not falling to the ground. That perch also is a chance for a great horned owl to come over and get itself on there as well, or on any of the little. Ledges that you built. [00:18:32] The key to all of this is the size of that entry hole. That entry hole cannot be bigger than about five and a half inches, really, five to five and a half inches any bigger than that. You're gonna a, a great horned l be able to get in and then, and it's just, it's not good. [00:18:50] Craig Macmillan: Right. So the, horned owl is a predator [00:18:53] my. It is, you wouldn't think, you know, owl to owl stuff like that. But yeah, it is. They are probably one of the more other than traffic fatalities, it's the, great horned owl [00:19:06] They are very aggressive. They know where these things live. They're very smart. The great horned owl, and again. If you get a young one out on a perch and it's there, it's, it could be could be done. [00:19:20] I have seen, 'cause I've been to a lot of vineyards in the area and I've seen a lot of large holes in these boxes and I actually went into one and it, it was occupied by great horned owl. it laid eggs in the box. [00:19:38] Oh wow. [00:19:39] Bob Peak: So. Well that is something too about owls. Is they don't make nests. [00:19:45] , the great horned owl will and barn owl will find a cavity. The great horn owl's, not a cavity nester, but they'll take an old hawks nest or eagle nest or something and make it their own. And then they tend to get into trouble because they're usually using a nest that isn't in that good of a shape. [00:20:04] Craig Macmillan: Hmm. What are some other things about sighting of boxes? We, we know not close to a road. We know the direction of the, the, of the opening. What are some things that will encourage the bar nows to nest there based on their other behavior? [00:20:19] Bob Peak: I, I think that you just have, to know, about approximately how many acres you have and you want to place a box about every five acres. You can actually have more boxes depending on how much food you have for them, but anywhere between five to 10 acres per box. Again, with the parameters of facing these, being the correct size and everything. So if you have a 50 acre property, you're looking at anywhere between oh five to 10 boxes on that property. [00:20:54] Craig Macmillan: And something that. I had heard was that it's good to have them near a tree. So that they have someplace that they can land right away when they come out of the box. Is that true? [00:21:05] Bob Peak: Yeah. I, we, we've experimented with that Absolutely. Again that's a more natural setting for them where they would be in the the hollow of a tree and come out and possibly be on a branch. Absolutely. I like that. I like that better than being on a pole. [00:21:24] As long as you still have access to the clean out and, and isn't too, you know, dangerous for someone to get up there. Yeah. I like that better than being on a pole without a [00:21:34] Craig Macmillan: Well actually having it in a tree. [00:21:37] Bob Peak: yes, [00:21:37] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Because what I had been told was that you'd want to have one because of the horn dial. You have one on a pole, but have it close to a tree where they can just shoot out and land on a... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/36361780

271: Integrating Biological Solutions 05/01/2025

271: Integrating Biological Solutions As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how best to integrate them into their farming operations. Nevada Smith, Head of Marketing North America, and Robert Blundell, Research Plant Pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group, highlight the role of biological pesticides and biofertilizers in sustainable winegrowing. Biological pesticides, derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes, play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality. Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness. Biofertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses, are another key tool for sustainable viticulture. Nevada and Robert discuss the growing importance of these technologies in improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: As biological technologies continue to advance, many growers are exploring how to best integrate them into their farming operations. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, executive director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP certified Vineyard in the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Nevada Smith Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Together, they highlight the role of biological pesticides and bio fertilizers in sustainable wine. Growing [00:00:49] biological pesticides are derived from microbial sources or natural products such as plants, fungi, bacteria, or nematodes. They play a crucial role in pest management by inhibiting or delaying growth or directly causing pest mortality [00:01:04] Understanding which biological products to use and when to apply them within an integrated pest management system is essential for maximizing their effectiveness. [00:01:13] Bio fertilizers, which enhance plant health and resilience to abiotic stresses are another key tool for sustainable viticulture, Nevada and Robert discussed the growing importance of these technologies and improving soil health and supporting long-term agricultural productivity. [00:01:30] If you're gonna be in Paso Robles, California on May 9th, 2025. Join us at Niner Wine Estates for a Biochar Field day. This interactive morning features live demonstrations and expert discussions on the benefits of biochar for soil health and sustainable farming. Learn how to integrate biochar into your farming operations through practical insights and hands-on experiences. Go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes to get registered. [00:02:00] Now let's listen in. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: My guest today are Nevada Smith. He is Head of Marketing North America and Robert Blundell, who's a research plant pathologist, both with Pro Farm Group. Thank you for being on the podcast [00:02:15] Rob Blundell: Thank you, Craig. [00:02:16] Nevada Smith: Thank you. [00:02:18] Craig Macmillan: Today we're gonna be talking about bio pesticides and we might as well start with the the basics. What is a biological pesticide? Robert, why don't you start? [00:02:26] Rob Blundell: Yeah, that's a good question, Craig. And and you know, honestly, it's. So when I first was kind of thinking about this, it's not as simple explanation as you might think. It's a constantly kind of evolving term and depending on who you are asking, you can get a, a very different answer. And it's, it's really kind of this large umbrella term. [00:02:42] . It's kind of a microbially based product or natural product typically derived from a plant, fungi, bacteria, nematode, you know. That pretty much has the ability to inhibit or delay the growth or, you know, cause the death of a pest. [00:02:56] And you know, with the term biological pesticide, pesticide being extremely broad whether it's, you know, insect, fungi, even rodent, you know, rodent sides, things like that. So yeah, again, it's a very broad term and different, different grooves, different commodities are gonna kind of have their own explanation. [00:03:09] Even the EU has a different, I think definition versus the EPA as well. So it's an evolving, evolving term. [00:03:15] Craig Macmillan: What about you, Nevada? Do you have anything to add to that? [00:03:17] Nevada Smith: I'm kind of with Robert, it's almost like sustainability. What does that mean? It means to me, I get to keep farming every year. But I think for everyone else it might have different definitions. And I think basically the, the premise is, is it's biologically based. It's based on a living organism, something that we can repeat, regrow, and, you know, the societal part of it, bio pesticide, it means it's acting or killing or helping mitigate pest. For proform have a biologically based strategy. And so we, that's what we deliver is those type of tools. [00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: One of the major pets on grapes is powdery mildew. Around the globe. Probably the major pest overall, I would say fungal disease. I have been seeing a lot of increase in the use of bio pesticides specifically for powdery mildew, some in organic systems, some in more traditional sustainability oriented systems. [00:04:09] What kind of mechanisms are there out there in the biological world for managing powdery mildew and how does that, how do they work? Nevada, do you wanna start? [00:04:18] Nevada Smith: Yeah, so for biological pesticides, there's sort of different categories and I'll even. Even throwing some sort of organic pesticides as well into this whole mix. I think as a grower or a wine processor, you have a choice and it's like, either I'm going conventional, I'm looking to maximize my value proposition on my vineyard or my process my wines. And so one of the ways we really think about this is how do you integrate bio pesticides into the overall spray for bio mildew, like our winemaker at our place they always say, Hey, if it's more than 3% power mildew it's a no go. It's a bad day for us. And so for us to take the risk on our farm. For a biologicial pesticide, we had to have some data to really get us excited about it. [00:05:02] Overall, we wanna see performance. We need to see at least seven to 10 days. And I think that's maybe the biggest challenge a powerdy mildew issue is depending on what sort of climate and what variety of grapes you're growing is how long does it take me to get across the vineyard? [00:05:17] It's really what it comes down to. [00:05:18] And you know, maybe from a pathology point of view, Robert has some perspective. [00:05:24] Rob Blundell: The way we want to kind of think about powdery mildew is it's, you know, it's, it's always gonna be there. It's gonna be present. And biologicals, when used in the right way, can be a fantastic you know, tool in the arsenal. For, for growers or farmers against a deadly pathogen like this. [00:05:38] Growers really need to kind of consider the goal of using a biological, because there's so many different mechanisms of action of a biological, I mean, it can be live, it can be live, it can be the, you know, the spent fermentation product of a biological, which is gonna work very differently versus an actual liable organism you're gonna put in your field. [00:05:53] So kind of having a clear mindset from the, from the start is gonna be crucial to knowing. What kind of biological do you use? And also importantly, kind of when to use it as well. Because you can have drastically different outcomes based on like the time of your, you know, the time of venue production and then, and then the time of the season as well. [00:06:09] But yes yeah, ultimately there's broad, broad mechanism of actions. So if we're putting something on there live you know, you know, with something like powder mildew, this, pathogen functions because it attaches onto leaves. So we have these overwintering structures called cassia. [00:06:24] So these are basically the dormant structures that are gonna help powerdy mildew, survive. That's why it's been around for so long. That's why it's, it comes back every year. So it basically shuts down, it's fungal mycelium into these dormant hard structures. And then every year it basically reawakens around spring when we get the rainfall. [00:06:39] So we're gonna get ASCO spores. These are specialized spore structures within that kind of dormant structure. They get released out. So, you know, with the, with the weather coming in this week, that's gonna be, huge out there right now. So we're gonna get the release of those spores. [00:06:51] They're gonna land on that leaf. So really that's kind of our prime target of having protection is when they're gonna be landing and then adhesing to that leaf. So with something like a biological, if we can get that onto that leaf and then, you know, that's kind of our line of defense really. We want to be setting like a line of defense early in the season. [00:07:08] Know we have a product regalia. So that gets on there. It has these antimicrobial compounds, which the first point of contact is gonna. Prevent you know, it's gonna help mitigate that interaction between the leaf and the pathogen acts as kind of that medium layer. And then it's also gonna boost the plant's natural defense. [00:07:24] So how powdery mildew you kind of functions it. Once it gets on that leaf, it has a very specialized structure. Call it, they would call it a whole story or an appium, depending on where you are in the world and specialized structure that will kind of get through that cell wall, under that cell membrane and then sucks out the nutrients from the leaf so we can get a biological on the early to boost that plant defense, boost those, you know, defense fight hormone pathways. [00:07:46] We're gonna kind of mitigate that as a an initial point of contact. And then hopefully that's gonna set us off for a you know, a good season after that. But the time, yeah, the timing is definitely crucial. [00:07:55] Nevada Smith: I think to add to Robert's point is really to start your season off right and clean. So that's why as growers or as winemakers, you choose to use some sulfur to kind of mitigate, which is not necessarily a bio pesticide, but it could be organic, you know, depending on what your source of there. But those tools to me, are foundational for getting a clean start if you start bad, and it's gonna be a hell of a year all year long. [00:08:20] And I think that's the biggest challenge of bio pesticide uses overall is. Where do they fit, what growers they fit in? And it's not a solution for all, for sure. I mean, if you're growing Chardonnay or Pinot Noir on the Sonoma Coast in a foggy bank off of Bodega Bay, tough times, you know? But if you're in Pastor Robles, maybe in the Napa Valley in the valley where it's a little bit drier, you go in cab. Issue. You probably can integrate a nice bio pesticide program into it, and I think that's the secret. [00:08:58] Craig Macmillan: You mentioned regalia. What is the actual ingredient in regalia? What does it come from? [00:09:03] Rob Blundell: Yeah, so for Regalia the active ingredient comes from giant knotweed, so Ray Nectria. So that's a giant knotweed extract essentially that's been procured and then optimized in r and d and then applied typically as a folia spray for, for grape vines. [00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: And then the plant reacts to that, and that's what increases the plant defense mechanism. [00:09:22] Rob Blundell: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. There's kind of a few, few tiers of how, you know, Regilia kind of functions. So yeah, so we do that kind of initial application pretty much as soon as you, you have any green tissue, you know, really that's a great time to kind of get that on there. And then so the plant is gonna respond to that so typically a plant, defence pathway. [00:09:39] We have salicylic acid, so that is a key phyto hormones. So phyto hormones are kind of the driving force behind the plant defense. And this is very, you know, this is typical for all kind of pathogens, all kind of crops really. So you're gonna have a pathogen interact and we'll have its initial interaction with a plant. [00:09:55] And then you're gonna get this initial, like, response straight away from a plan. It's gonna be, Hey, I, my defenses are up. I, I sense this as a foreign agent. Basically I need to, you know, protect myself. So you get this upregulation of fighter hormones. They're very regulated. Pathways that then have these cascading effects to ultimately kind of therefore have longer term defense. [00:10:14] So you have an upregulation of fighter hormones. This is gonna signal to the plant that, Hey, I need to strengthen my cell walls, for example. So I'm gonna send more liening cell lignin being a crucial component a cell. wall . That's something we see upregulated as a result of regalia. So we get that increase in phyto hormones, we'll get lignin sent to the cell wall. [00:10:32] We get an increase in antioxidants as well to kinda help break down the pathogen as well. Limiteds effects we get polyphenols various other kind of antimicrobials as a result. So we have kind of direct effects, but then crucially with regalia, so we're gonna have the plant initially respond to its application, and then when the pathogen does. [00:10:50] Come around for a, an attack. That plan already kind of is, is heightened its responses, it's ready for it, so it's gonna be a faster kind of response time and therefore what we kind of consider more of a, a longer term defense response. [00:11:02] Craig Macmillan: Are there other modes of action, perhaps ones that are live? [00:11:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah. And that, I think that's a great point. Is there, you know, the, the bacillus category has been a big category the last dozen years or so. And this could be anything waiting from a bacillus subtles to bacillus Emli. There's other bacilli out there too. And I think they're more of an integrated approach. [00:11:22] So I conventional our farm vineyards. We're gonna just rotate it in there. So just like if you're straight organic or you're straight bio pesticide, it'd be a regalia, as an example, rotated with a bacillus product. We happen to have one as well, a very nice one called Sargus. But there's other great solutions out there in the marketplace today. There's other living organisms as well. There's some products in the Streptomyces categories as well. They're used in grow rotation, but I think to me as a grower and as a winemaker myself. I'm just looking for integration, IPM strategy all the way along. And depend on how, what your guard rails are for farming that would dictate what your options are overall. [00:12:07] Craig Macmillan: So, , to you, Robert, , how do these actually work? Like bacillus subtilis and things? [00:12:11] How do they actually either prevent or treat powdery mildew in grape. [00:12:15] Rob Blundell: Yeah, good question. So for Bacillus with Star in particular so we're actually not looking to treat powdery mildew kind of outright with this product itself. That's more where regalia is gonna come as a benefit. So actually Bacillus is great for something like botrytis in grapes. So, and this is really, really where we can kind of combine regalia and stargus together for a very effective program. [00:12:34] Kind of a one-two punch. So we, you have a live bacillus product. So we have spores that are gonna colonize a surface. So whether that's being the soil, you know, microbia the leaves or the berries, and with botrytis infecting berries causing damage, necrotic lesions in those berries, that's where something like stargus , a bacillus product can be applied to those berries to effectively colonize it. [00:12:55] And again, kind of creating like a nice. Kind of shield essentially from pretty much all fungal pathogens work the same. They have to attach, then they have to penetrate to essentially, hold on. So if we can kind of form a physical, kind of physical barrier, that's gonna be great. So for a lot of the Bacillus products they produce a suite of antimicrobials. [00:13:13] So star for our company we have a suite of antimicrobials that produces, so we have things like Itur, Phin, these are all really good antimicrobials. They're gonna have a direct effect on it. So those spores will be able to, you know, colonize the berry, for example, and then help Yeah. Prevent prevent powerdy mildew So you have this live culture essentially that's on the grapes and it's producing compounds, and that's where the, the antimicrobial comes in or the antifungal comes in. [00:13:40] Nevada Smith: Yes. And. [00:13:47] So there's two registrations from an EPA standpoint. There's the live bacteria count, which people are familiar with from back in the day when there was bts, right cells ths for worm protection. And so we measure the CFUs, which is a colony forming unit. So the bacteria, and there's a minimum threshold that we have for our product as well as anybody else that registers their bacteria. Just sort of a quality control thing for the grower to know this is the level we produce. What we. Seeing the production for our solution is really around the chemical compounds being created in the fermentation process, this lipopeptides cycle. And so that's what's important to know that there's some differentiation. [00:14:25] And I always use the example, I'm a huge basketball fan and you know, there's a difference between Michael Jordan and myself. I'm not at his level. And so not all bacilli are created equal, but they all do have some performance values for them. And obviously, you know, the more you can look into science and whether it be uc, extension and the Gubler Eskalen models and local trial researchers will give you the value proposition each of these products brings to you. [00:14:50] Craig Macmillan: Now, this is something that I, I don't think I've heard before and I wanna make sure that I heard it correctly. So, some of the protection is actually coming from things that are being produced during the fermentation production of the bacteria themselves. And so these are side things. And then that makes it into the final product. [00:15:05] Nevada Smith: Yeah, that's actually the most important thing on foliar. So holistically for bacillus, and this is a very broad brush here unless you're in a tropical environment like bananas in. Columbia or Costa Rica, you're not growing more spores on the leaf surface. You might have that happen a little bit depending on sort of your micro environments. What you really want is coverage and then that eradicates. [00:15:29] The way that the the bacillus really works, it really pokes holes into the cell wall of power mildew. So that's, and it just kinda leaks out and dies. And so it's botrytis , and or powder mildew. That's the major effects that it has on these pest diseases. [00:15:43] But in those rare examples, I'll tell you, we've seen some results of our products being used in crops and tropical environments. If it can grow, it's creating more value. Now let's talk about something different. You put bacillus. Sargus into the ground in a soil treatment. It... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35968375

270: Regenerative Farming Practices: Water, Soil, and Habitat | Marketing Tip Monday 04/28/2025

270: Regenerative Farming Practices: Water, Soil, and Habitat | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Sustainable farming practices are essential to protect the environment, improve a long-term agricultural productivity and support healthy communities. [00:00:08] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:27] And this week's marketing tip, we're going to take a close look at three areas where regenerative farming practices make a big impact, including water management, soil health, and habitat preservation, [00:00:39] let's kick it off with water management. Water is one of agriculture's most critical resources. Sustainable farmers work carefully to both use water efficiently and protect quality. Anyone who has struggled to keep a plant alive knows that plants don't like too little or too much water and wine. Grapes are no different. [00:00:57] Regenerative farming practices incorporate moisture sensing technologies to help farmers determine irrigation needs when placed in the soil. These devices estimate how much water is available to the plant, and farmers can use this information to avoid both over and under watering their crops. [00:01:13] When it comes to rain, there's a greater impact than just irrigating the grapevines. Heavy rains can pull sediment, nutrients, and other farm inputs into neighboring water bodies. This causes imbalances in the water body ecosystem and could threaten the life within it. [00:01:28] Plant matter can remedy these issues. Roots of living plants spread underground act as a filter that holds sediment in place. Preventing it from exiting the property. Vegetation above ground slows water down as it travels and eases the impact of rain as it hits the ground. Furthering the anti erosion benefits. [00:01:46] The next time you drive past a vineyard, take a look at the plants growing in between the vine rows. Those cover crops are help protecting waterways. [00:01:55] Now let's talk about soil health. Healthy soil is the foundation for a thriving farm and a resilient ecosystem. Sustainable practices aim to keep soils rich in nutrients full of life and resistant to erosion for years to come, [00:02:08] rather than relying on guesswork. Farmers committed to sustainability conduct regular soil tests. This helps them make nutrient management plans that supply the plants with the food that they need without over applying fertilizer [00:02:22] and back to those cover crops. Healthy soils have a lot of life in them. Microbes, fungi and bacteria are key players in decomposition, helping to convert and transport nutrients that are vital to a healthy plant. [00:02:35] While cover crops are a fantastic way to enhance soil biodiversity, their benefits extend even further. They can provide refuge for beneficial insects, prevent erosion and improve water infiltration. [00:02:48] Let's talk about habitat preservation. The influence of farming extends beyond the fence line. Regenerative farmers recognize that their land is part of a larger ecosystem. Protecting natural habitats and promoting biodiversity are key components of responsible land management. Many farmers set aside areas of their property to remain wild or minimally disturbed. [00:03:09] These spaces serve as important refuges for wildlife and help preserve native plant and animal species beyond simply leaving areas undeveloped. Sustainable farmers often actively work to create and maintain habitats that encourage a diversity of species, including pollinators and beneficial insects. [00:03:28] They may also take special measures. To protect endangered species where applicable. [00:03:33] All of these regenerative practices are incorporated into the SIP Certified program. If you want to learn more about being a sustainable wine grower. [00:03:40] Check out SIP certified.org and sign up to complete the program as a self-assessment for free. Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard team. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/36198480

269: From Surplus to Strategy: Managing the Grape Market’s Challenges 04/17/2025

269: From Surplus to Strategy: Managing the Grape Market’s Challenges Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage, discuss key grape and wine industry trends, from oversupply and vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts, and future trends, emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Amid news of oversupply and decreased demand, the wine industry has an opportunity to adapt to the changing market. [00:00:11] Welcome to Sustainable Wine, growing with the Vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard, and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Audra Cooper, director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, central Coast Grape Broker At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:41] they discuss key grape and wine industry trends from oversupply to vineyard removals to the growing necessity of sustainable certification. They explore regional dynamics, bulk wine market shifts and future trends. Emphasizing innovation, industry collaboration, and better marketing to stay competitive. [00:01:01] If you love infield education and are on California Central Coast on April 25th, 2025, please join us at the fungicide spring tailgate hosted at Cal Poly. In San Luis Obispo, California, Dr. Shunping Ding will share updated results from a 2024 study on fungicide programs using bio fungicides and their impact on grape yield and berry chemistry. Then we'll visit the Cal Poly Vineyard to explore new powdered mildew management technologies and discuss fungicide spraying programs. With farmers from throughout the central coast to register, go to vineyard team.org/events or look for the link in the show notes. [00:01:44] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper. She's Director of Grape Brokerage with Turrentine Brokerage. And also, Eddie Urman, who's Central Coast Grape Broker with Turrentine Brokerage as well. And thanks for coming back. This is part two of a, of a, of an episode here. So, I really appreciate you folks making time to come back. [00:02:00] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us back. We're excited to join you once again. [00:02:04] Eddie Urman: Yeah, thanks for having us. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So Audra, let's start with you. In our last conversation . [00:02:17] And that was kind of where we left it that then started a conversation amongst the three of us afterward. We were like, okay, there's a lot more to talk about here. So let's do it. [00:02:24] Can you give some examples of what you mean by getting ahead of changes? [00:02:30] Audra Cooper: I think it's a sound business strategy to always try and stay ahead of the curve regardless of what component of business or what industry you're in, right? It's just a, a good strategy to have and a good philosophy to have. It's really important in this industry to continue to stay relevant and in order to stay relevant, you have to stay within the trend or ahead of the trend. [00:02:51] Being behind the eight ball is, never a good thing . You need to be ahead of the curve. A good example of that is sustainable certification. And we still have these discussions on the daily and Eddie, you can talk to this too about how often we have to talk about if you're not sustainably certified, you are cutting your buyer pool, probably roughly in half, as I mentioned in the previous podcast, and you're limiting yourself. [00:03:18] And the majority of the practices, most growers are probably already doing, and they're just not going through the certification process and getting that done. And if you look back a little over a decade ago, it was something that wineries were paying, you know, 25, 50 per ton more for, they were paying a premium. [00:03:36] And then it became more of a, this is really nice to have. And so more and more growers We're doing it as a point of differentiation in their marketing. And now today it's almost a necessity. It's no longer something that's necessarily going to get you a premium price for your grapes. It's also not necessarily a point of differentiation any longer. [00:03:55] It's a need to have. [00:03:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Eddie, do you have anything to add to that? [00:03:59] Eddie Urman: No, I think that's a great example. , Audra offered up. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: So there's, trends around that, and there's a lot of certifications now, and I agree, I think a lot of folks don't need to be afraid of whatever the certification is, because you're probably doing a lot of those things already, a lot of common practices. [00:04:13] I think that's an interesting insight that now it's kind of becoming expected or certainly a requirement for a lot of wineries. [00:04:19] Let's talk about changes in acreage. That's where we left off last time when we were talking about the difference between vineyard removals, which have been suggested, recommended, et cetera, by a number of folks in the industry as we just are in oversupply period I've heard estimates that we may have 30 to 35, 000 acres of grapes, more than we need based on current demand. [00:04:40] how accurate do you think that is? , how bad is it on the supply side? [00:04:45] Audra Cooper: Well, I think you have a couple parts to that question, right? Let's dissect that a little bit and start with, we just got back from the Unified Wine Grape Symposium in Sacramento, and of course, during the State of the Industry, Jeff Bitter gave his annual synopsis of the nursery survey that they do annually on how many vines were sold, and they do a, A lot of data work in regards to what were removals and his number that he reported over the last two years was 37, 500 acres have been removed from the state of California. [00:05:15] He believes based on their research that another 50, 000 acres need to be removed to reach the point of balance, assuming that consumption stays at its current rate or drops just a tiny bit. [00:05:29] And when we look at our information internally, now we don't do a survey like Allied does, but we're tracking a lot of information, both with our winery partners as well as our grower partners in regards to who's doing what, and our number's a little bit higher, but we also go back four years technically going back to 2022, our number for the state of California is closer to about 50, 000 acres that have been removed, and, you know, I would argue that If consumption stays flat, certainly there will need more removals, but I don't know about 50, 000 acres more. [00:06:04] That seems like an awful lot of acres that need to be removed. If his numbers are right, that would put us back to Basically global recession numbers, which would be around 500, 000 acres bearing. [00:06:16] Craig Macmillan: right. in the Grape Crush Report, which is an annual report that's put out by, uh, California Department Of Food and Agriculture and the National Agricultural Statistics Service, there is a non bearing acres section in there, which I always find very interesting. Are we able to glean anything from that data in terms of what's been sold, what we think's gonna go back in, et cetera? [00:06:39] I want to put a timestamp on this. So this is being recorded first week of February, 2025. So the unified was in 2025. The report that's coming out is going to be for the 2024 year. [00:06:48] What can we learn from that non bearing acreage report? [00:06:51] Audra Cooper: So there's two different reports. the acreage report will be coming out a little bit later in the year. We're going to have our crush report come out on February 10. I think you can glean two pieces of information, but both are very similar. And that is how much acreage has actually been removed and how light the crop truly was, particularly in the coastal regions for 2024. [00:07:10] And so when we look at, for example, a 23 bearing and non bearing acreage information from the state of California they're reporting 446, 000 acres of bearing wine grapes. And if you take that at, say, 7 tons an acre, that's 3. 12 million tons. And we know with certainty at 7 tons an acre, That acreage seems pretty low. [00:07:35] It doesn't seem realistic. So unfortunately, because it's a voluntary report when it comes to bearing versus non bearing acres, I do think that the state's probably about two years behind on real data trends. And so unfortunately right now, if you were to use that report as, you know, an analysis of the industry, you'd probably be a bit off. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: got it, got it. Are there trends in what varieties are coming out and what varieties are going back in? Because that's often been the driving force for removals and replants, is chasing the marketplace. Are we seeing that kind of thing in California? [00:08:11] Audra Cooper: Yeah, you know, I'll I'll touch on this a little bit and then turn it over to Eddie. It's, it's really difficult to predict in our industry how and what and when to plant, right? Because you are following a trend and a trend that you're going to be lagging behind in trying to meet because of the amount of time it takes to get a crop and a crop that is productive. [00:08:31] And so oftentimes we're abridged, Yeah. Yeah. too far behind in regards to consumer trends. When we look at the central coast as a whole, there's certainly some segmented dynamics on what's being removed versus planted. And, you know, a good place to start, of course, is Paso. Eddie, do you want to talk a little bit more about that? [00:08:51] Eddie Urman: Yeah we do see some trends of, varieties, being pushed out more frequently than others. You know, for the Central Coast, a couple that come to mind are, Zin, Pinot Noir Merlot is one that historically came out. If it's still there, still going out, and then more specifically, old vines is probably the more specific categories. You are seeing a lot of Cab being pushed, that are old vines, but likely to go back into Cab if it gets replanted. [00:09:17] Audra Cooper: that's an interesting trend, because when we're looking at what was purchased based on the survey numbers that Jeff Bitter reported, he was talking about 12, 000 acres being planted based on their survey in 2024, and an overwhelming percentage was still red varietals, which really bucks the trend on what we're seeing observing boots on the ground. [00:09:41] What we've mainly been seeing planted are more alternative whites and niche whites like Grenache Blanc, Pinot Grigio Astrotico, you know, very specific alternative whites in which they're trending with DTC and kind of smaller producers. Certainly we still see some redevelopment of Cabernet as well as Pinot Noir and Chardonnay, not so much on the red blender side or Merlot. [00:10:06] Those seem to be being pulled out and not redeveloped. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: Are we seeing any changes or trends around Okay, I'm pushing out Cabernet. I'm going to replant Cabernet. , am I going to replant the same amount of Cabernet? Am I using this as an opportunity to plant new ground? Do we have any information about that kind of thing? [00:10:24] Audra Cooper: Yeah, I mean, to give you hard data would be challenging. I don't know that anyone really has, a hard, fast calculation of what they do and don't do in regards to, the varietal makeup of a redevelopment. And I do want to clarify, I think there's a common misconception, particularly in the coastal regions that This is new net acreage. [00:10:43] It's not new net acreage. A lot of this is redeveloped acreage, but it will be higher in productivity based on, you know, better vines, healthier vines, better spacing, new farming technology, and so forth. And so we'll have new net supply based off that acreage. In full production. When you look at the new developments, though, and it was save paso cab, for example, it's really difficult to say, Oh, well, let's do 50 percent cab and 50 percent red blenders. [00:11:14] I mean, that's a tough decision to make. And you're really making a a pretty risky bet. I think for most people, they're going to plant to the site and also to the trend in the market. And so oftentimes, for example, again, Paso Cab, you're still going to have Cabernet largely go back in on those redevelopments. [00:11:31] When you look at Santa Barbara County, I think they're diversifying a little bit more than they had been in the past. You're not largely just Chardonnay Pinot Cab. You're also seeing alternative reds and whites being planted in that area. Monterey County, when you look at that region, it tends to be a little bit more mixed bag, but still largely chardonnay then in the southern Monterey County area, cabernet and red blenders. [00:11:54] Craig Macmillan: Do you have anything to add to that, Eddie? [00:11:56] Eddie Urman: As far as the rate of what's going back in the ground, you know, in acres. I think as far as East Paso goes Monterey County, Santa Barbara County, we're seeing contraction as far as more acres coming out that are going back. The only area we do see more plantings that are new, it is in the West side of Paso. And it's substantial. I think there's a good amount of acres that have gone in the West side. [00:12:17] Being from the growing side, I think we always wanted to diversify away from Cabernet and Paso Robles specifically, but the reality is the majority of people still want to buy Cabernet. So if anything, I'm worried that growers expect other varieties to try to diversify their portfolio that might not match the demand. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. And speaking of demand. , we're talking about land and grapes, what's the current state of the, the bulk wine market where you'd expect a lot of the sovers to go where are we kind of at and what do you think are going to be the impacts on the bulk wine market with the replanting? [00:12:53] Audra Cooper: currently right now, listed available with us is about 28 million gallons. We anticipate that it will climb to probably 30, maybe past 30 million gallons at the peak of listing this year, which is typically early summer. In large part, that's still 2023 vintage. However, we do still have some 21, 22, and of course now new 24 is being listed. [00:13:18] The rate of listing is not being eclipsed by the rate of, you know, attrition decline in regards to bulk wine being removed from the market, whether that's through sales or higher and better use internally for those who are listing it. So we still have an off kilter balance there and certainly dramatically an oversupply and that dynamics likely to continue for the next couple of years until we see consumption increase and, and therefore increasing demand for new products. [00:13:45] Typically when we've seen these large increases in availability, what's gotten us out of it is the negotiants who are developing new brands, particularly when we look back to the premiumization sector. We saw a lot of middle tiers, you know, the likes of Duckhorn and Joel Gott and several others who were growing programs that they may have had for a couple of years, but they were very small and they've broadened those to other Appalachians or California and went to the bulk market first to kind of grow those programs before they started grape contracting. [00:14:16] So we're going to need to start seeing that trend in order to clean that market up. [00:14:19] Craig Macmillan: And so that's, that's basically good news, you think, for the bulk wine supply going down the road. [00:14:23] Audra Cooper: I think. In the future, it is in the short term. It's rather painful to have that amount of availability, right? We've been tracking this for the better part of three decades, and there's never been a single calendar year in which we've carried this amount of inventory, particularly going into last harvest, it was the highest inventory we'd ever seen in our tracking. [00:14:44] Keep in mind that this is what's listed available for us. This is not going out and taking inventory of what everyone has in tank that they're not necessarily going to bottle or they don't have a program for. So you can easily maybe double that number and that's what the likely availability is. [00:15:03] Craig Macmillan: Eddie what do you think is going to happen with pricing on on bulk wine? Yeah, I know that you're a specialized in grapes. But obviously those growers are concerned about what's going to happen to those grapes. From the grower side, how attractive is it right now to turn product into bulk wine, do you think? [00:15:21] Eddie Urman: I would say it's very, very, very much not attractive. Uh, we would. Not advocate for that in most scenarios for growers at this time regarding bulk pricing, you know, bulk wine, obviously we have bulk people who have better insight than Audrey, but in general, it's not going to be good. We don't, we don't foresee an increase in price as. we're obviously seeing an increase in supply of bulk wine, that typically is going to still have more downward pressure on price. And as far as growers bulking wine, it's, I think, a very risky game right now. You know, bulk wine does have a life expectancy, to Audra's point earlier. And, know, if you bulk it now, you have to sell it eventually to make your money back. [00:16:02] And then on top of that, you have to carry those costs with today's interest rates. [00:16:06] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. So, prices for bulk wine right now, I'm guessing have been on the decline for probably a couple of years. Is that accurate? [00:16:13] Audra Cooper: Yeah, that's an accurate statement. If I were to really think about how long they've been on the decline, I would say probably mid, mid calendar year 2023 is when we start to see the downturn of the market be very, you know, impactful on pricing and overall demand. And of course, increasing inventory is really when that trend started. [00:16:34] I want to kind of go back to what Eddie was talking about regarding you know growers making bulk wine and and how risky that is, you know, we have a saying internally and it's so Elementary, but it's so applicable to these times. Your first loss is typically your best loss or your least loss and so it's really important when you're looking at alternative to market Whether or not you're actually going to be able to optimize how much investment you have in that product, and more often than not, when you're making grapes into bulk wine as a grower, you're not going to have the wherewithal to compete with a competitive set, other wineries, or large growers whose business models incorporate making bulk wine as a producer. [00:17:15] So you really end up being on the losing end of that game. [00:17:19] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you see price pressure on growers? Are prices being negotiated down or contracts being changed or not renewed? And if so, does that vary by region, do you think? I know you specialize in the Central Coast, but just from what you know. [00:17:34] Eddie Urman: I think for the Central Coast, it's easy to say that there's still unfortunately more cancellations or evergreens being called and their... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35862330

267: Your Green Wine Glossary | Marketing Tip Monday 03/24/2025

267: Your Green Wine Glossary | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: A label can provide a lot of information about a wine. The next time you walk down the wine aisle, look for common terms and symbols like vintage, place of origin, percent alcohol, and even the SIP certified logo. [00:00:12] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:29] Many labeling requirements in the United States are defined by the Code of Federal Regulations. In this week's marketing tip, we are giving you a green wine glossary. Five common wine designations, defined, so you'll wonder no longer. [00:00:45] Number one is vegan. Not every wine fits the vegan lifestyle. During the winemaking process, small particles can cause haziness or unwanted flavor properties. Winemakers can add a fining agent that will bind to these tiny particles and make them large enough to be filtered out. Many fining agents are animal based. Egg whites, casein, and gelatin. Wine that was fined with any of these materials cannot be considered vegan. Vegan wines include those that were either fined with a non animal based agent. Like bentonite clay, or not find at all. [00:01:19] Number two is natural. There is no official or regulated definition of natural wine. That being said, most understand it as a wine that was made through a minimal intervention, no additive approach. Natural wines are fermented with native yeasts versus adding yeast. They cannot be filtered or fined, nor can winemaking additives be used, except for a small amount of sulfur pre bottling. If you are told that the wine you're drinking is natural, remember to ask what it means. [00:01:48] Number three is organic. Wine must meet several requirements in order to be labeled as an organic wine. The vineyard must be certified organic, the winemaking process must be certified organic, and the final product must contain at least 95 percent organic ingredients, no additives, and no preservatives. Please note that wine made with organic grapes are not the same as organic wines. While this definition means that a hundred percent of the grapes used were certified organic, Other ingredients in the wine do not have to be organic, but do note that they cannot be genetically engineered. Another thing to keep in mind is that organic designation varies between countries. [00:02:25] Number four is biodynamic. The biodynamic farming principle is guided by nature's rhythms and the understanding that the vineyard is a self contained ecosystem where all elements live and work together. Like organic, synthetic inputs are prohibited in biodynamic farming. But unlike any other program, the timing of biodynamic practices aligns with the lunar and celestial cycles. This is because of the belief that moon phases in planetary positions affect the flow of sap and energy in the vines, and that there is value in keeping practices in sync with these forces. Demeter International is the most recognized certification body for biodynamic wines. For a wine to bear the seal, the grapes must be grown in adherence to the biodynamic principles, and the wine must be made through certified biodynamic processes. [00:03:12] And number five is sustainable in agriculture. Sustainability means adhering to practices that protect social and environmental health while enhancing economic vitality. sustainably grown grapes are farmed similarly to organic and biodynamic grapes. All programs seek to protect human and environmental health through reducing inputs and conserving. And regenerating natural resources where sustainability differs is that it looks beyond the farm and into the business itself, including worker safety, community relationships, continuing education and accounting and budgeting, just to name a few of the areas that certification bodies like SIP certified address in the standards. Certification also extends from the vineyard and into the winery. [00:03:55] Did you know that your wine can include the SIP certified seal on the label if it's made with 85 percent SIP certified fruit, whether it is estate or purchased? Simply go to SIP certified. org to apply today. So your customers will know that your wine was made through practices that protect the people and the planet. [00:04:13] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35641720

266: Soft Pesticide Trial: Powdery Mildew, Downy Mildew, Botrytis, and Sour Rot 03/20/2025

266: Soft Pesticide Trial: Powdery Mildew, Downy Mildew, Botrytis, and Sour Rot Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis, and sour rot can be a complex challenge. Andy Fles, Vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan, shares insights from his USDA Sustainable Ag Research Education producer grant project. The project compares two pest management approaches: a ‘soft’ pesticide program and a conventional one. Andy conducted the experiment using his on farm sprayer, providing real-world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Managing pests like powdery mildew, downy mildew, botrytis and sour rot can be a complex challenge. [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. [00:00:21] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates. With Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery speaks with Andy Fles, vineyard Manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. Andy shares insights from his USDA Sstainable Ag Research Education Producer grant project. The project compares to pest management approaches, a soft pesticide program and a conventional one. [00:00:50] Andy conducted the experiment using his on farms sprayer, providing real world results. Despite climate variability and fluctuating pest pressures, the soft pesticide program proved effective. The project underscores the potential of using softer chemistries to manage disease while maintaining fruit quality. [00:01:10] If you'd like to learn more about this topic, then we hope you can join us on April 25th, 2025 for the fungicide spraying evolving strategies in Grower Insights tailgate taking place in San Luis Obispo, California. Dr. Shunping Ding of Cal Poly will share updated results from a study on the efficacy of different fungicide programs containing bio fungicides. [00:01:34] Then we will head out into the vineyard to learn about new technologies for integrated pest management and talk with farmers from different growing regions about their program. Now let's listen in. [00:01:49] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Andy Fles. He is the vineyard manager at Shady Lane Cellars in Michigan. And today we're going to talk about a pretty cool little project. He's got going looking into two different pesticide programs. Thanks for being on the podcast, Andy. [00:02:03] Andrew Fles: Yeah, my pleasure, Craig. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: So you have a grant from the USDA sustainable agriculture research and education program. To look at what you call a soft pesticide program for your vineyard in Michigan and comparing it to what we would call a sustainable or sustainable conventional program. What do you define as a soft pesticide program? [00:02:25] Andrew Fles: Well, that's kinda just a, a term that we applied to identify it. I didn't want to use organic because I thought that there would be a good chance we would utilize things that are considered by the industry to be very soft in terms of you know, they're not a harsh chemical or a carcinogenic, a known carcinogenic compound. [00:02:49] But something, for example, like. Like horticultural grade peroxide, which goes by several different trade names. So that's just, it's hydrogen peroxide and it is a disinfectant that turns into water and oxygen. So it's pretty Soft in terms of what it does to beneficials and, and plants and, and such. [00:03:11] We utilize some of those products already in our spray program. But combined also with, we're probably 50 percent organic in terms of what we spray out. for fungicides, pesticides, insecticides. And so we're still altering in some synthetic compounds. [00:03:28] And we wanted to compare that, what we currently do, to something that was much softer, like only soft compounds. Something that could be considered a OMRI certified organic program, or, or almost, right? Like maybe there's just one or two things that are very soft, but not technically OMRI certified. [00:03:49] Craig Macmillan: Right, and I do want to , get into the weeds on that a little bit later. Cause it's a, it's an interesting, Set a program that you've got going and I have lots of questions about them. What inspired this project? [00:04:01] Andrew Fles: I think just that continued movement towards investigating what works here in the east. You know, we, of course, get more wetting events and, and wetting periods that cause more fungal issues here compared to the west coast. And so we really, you know, we have to have an eye on sustainability. Certainly at Shady Lane, we really push for that. [00:04:25] But we also need to make sure that we have a marketable crop. We need to make sure the wine quality is, is high and acceptable for our standards. And so you know, if we're talking about, you know, every year is quite different here. We can get a, like, for example, in 2024, very wet in the first half of the year, very, very dry in the second half. [00:04:51] And, and then, which was quite different from 23 and quite different from 22 and so on and so forth. so, so some years we need to kind of step in and use a synthetic product here at this key time or, you know we need to protect our, our, our wine grape quality. [00:05:07] Craig Macmillan: What are the primary pests and diseases in your area? [00:05:11] Andrew Fles: So we have issues with the usual suspects that powdery mildew, of course. That's, that's fairly, I think if you're on top of your game, that's, it's pretty controllable. Even with soft products here it's just a spray frequency and coverage issue. [00:05:27] Downy mildew is something that can be quite challenging in certain years. [00:05:31] And there's, and there's less tools in the toolbox to use for that as well. And so you gotta, you gotta be on top of that with scouting preventative, like canopy, you know, canopy management practices that deter too dense of a canopy or, or clusters that are. hidden behind several layers of leaf. [00:05:53] Those are going to cause problems for you no matter what you're spraying, synthetic or organic, right? So, so we try and utilize all those things and and then we, we can also have issues in some years with botrytis and even sour rot and tight clustered varieties. So, so we were looking at sour rot and botrytis in the, in the cluster analysis of this portion of the , project. [00:06:18] Yeah, we have some locations can struggle with grape erinium mite. That's becoming more and more prevalent here. Wasn't an issue four years ago. Not, not really up in, up in northern Michigan anyway. So that's becoming more and more of an issue. And then we always struggle with rose chafers. It's a, it's a grub that, you know, comes out for six weeks and really terrorizes the vines. [00:06:49] And for that, for that pest, we really walk the line of the economic damage threshold, right? So, so a little, you know, we're going to see rose chafers every year. Some years are better than others. And what is our acceptable damage, you know? And so, once we see the rose chafers really getting dense in number, and also, you know, munching on a few leaves is one thing, munching on the clusters and the shoot tips is another thing. [00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, I'm unfamiliar with this this pest. It, skeletonizes leaves, but it also will attack flower clusters and, and grape clusters in the early stages of development. Is that right? [00:07:34] Andrew Fles: Pretty much all green tissue. Yeah, a bunch of shoot, shoot tips leaves are probably, you know, their preferred source, I think, but anything tender. And so if, if the timing is just right where the, the inflorescences are, are you know, just coming out when the, when the beetles hatch, then they can really go for those cluster tips and, and shoot tips. [00:07:59] While we're scouting for this pest, we not only do the, you know, the density numbers and annotate that, but we look at, you know, how many are actually eating leaves versus shoot tips and clusters. [00:08:13] Craig Macmillan: Interesting, interesting. What is the design of your project and what varieties are we talking about? And what kind of variables are you measuring and how are you measuring them? [00:08:25] Andrew Fles: this is a farmer grant as opposed to a research grant. , it's tailored to folks that want to do on, on farm trials. And we want to do. Something in a significant enough volume, you know, that, that some that it would apply, it would be more applicable in the real world. [00:08:45] So for example you know, at a university they might do this randomized plots, you know, and they're using a backpack sprayer because they're, they're applying you know, three vines here, three vines there, scattered all throughout the block. And we wanted to use the sprayer that we actually use. [00:09:04] Um, and we wanted to do a bigger sections. And so what we did was we broke it up into two acre sections and we did two acres of both the traditional, the conventional program that we normally would do here and the soft treatment. So we did two acres of each in pinot noir, two acres of each in a, in a French American hybrid called ol, and then two acres of Riesling. [00:09:33] And we wanted to look at powdery, downy, botrytis, and sour rot. [00:09:38] In certain years, we can have quite a lot of botrytis and sour rot pressure in those three varieties. Because Pinot Noir of course is tight clustered. Vignole is even tighter clustered despite having that French American disease resistance package. It, it doesn't possess that for Botrytis or Sour Rot. [00:09:58] and then of course Riesling is a, is a very, it's probably the number one variety in Michigan. And as we all know, it's susceptible to Botrytis. [00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Big time. [00:10:10] Nice design. Great varieties to choose. I think that was really, really smart. How are you going to quantify these different variables? How are you going to measure the damage? [00:10:18] Andrew Fles: So for Powdery and Downey we just kind of did a scouting assessment. You know, how, prevalent is the infection based on how many leaves per, per per scouting event? I think off the top of my head, it was like 25 leaves. Per block that's more, I guess, anecdotal which we, and we did see that in the Pinot Noir, it was pretty clear cut that we struggled to control Downy in the soft treatment more so than in the conventional treatment. [00:10:50] It was, it was pretty clear there. And then as far as the Botrytis and Sour Rot, so that's really where the MSU team came in with the, the Rufus Isaacs lab and Dr. Rufus Isaacs and his master's PhD candidate. They did a lot of work there and, and then also the Tim Miles lab , so basically what they did is they took 25 clusters of each treatment and they did an assessment , for of course, how many berries were infected by, by botrytis and sour rot. [00:11:25] And then they also took those clusters and they hatched them out to see how many Drosophila species were there. [00:11:33] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Yeah, good. That's interesting. [00:11:36] Andrew Fles: Wing drosophila here in Michigan and so really it was just the two species of traditional vinegar fly, drosophila, and then spotted wing. They did, you know, the, the statistics on that. [00:11:50] Craig Macmillan: interesting. And this is, this is a multi year project, right? [00:11:54] Andrew Fles: This was just one year. [00:11:56] Craig Macmillan: Just one year, okay. [00:11:58] And when will you have final results? [00:12:01] Andrew Fles: I have some of those already. We're going to do like a more formal presentation at a spring meeting here, a grower meeting, that's kind of co sponsored between MSU Extension and a local non profit that promotes grape and wine production in the area. So yeah, we're going to make a presentation in April on on the results and, and kind of, we're just continuing to, coalesce and, you know, tie my spray program with wedding events and then the results that they got as well. [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: What other kinds of outreach are you doing? You're doing the meeting and you're doing other things? [00:12:41] Andrew Fles: I haven't discussed this with with Rika Bhandari as the PhD student. I suspect that she would use this in some of her publishing, you know, whether it gets published, I don't know, it's part of her Her main focus is sour rot, so this will be included in some of her presentations. [00:13:03] But I don't know that for a fact. [00:13:06] Craig Macmillan: That's exciting to get some information that's local. It's locally based and get it out to the local community as well as the broader community. I think that's really important if you don't mind I would like to get into some of the nuts and bolts of these two programs because I found that to be very interesting And then as we go talk about How that panned out for the different pests and diseases that you saw in these trials Let's talk about the soft program first You've got a dormant oil app in May and I assume you mean that there would be like JMS stylet oil or something like that [00:13:41] Andrew Fles: I think it was called bio cover. [00:13:43] Craig Macmillan: Bio cover and that's a pretty standard practice in your area I would guess [00:13:48] Andrew Fles: It is, yeah. [00:13:49] Craig Macmillan: and then the following month in June You, uh, have copper in the mix. In both the traditional and in the soft chemistry. I'm guessing that's also a common practice in your area. Probably for downy and for powdery. [00:14:06] Andrew Fles: Yeah, the copper is is something that we've been leaning towards and getting away from some of the synthetics. Which stick better to plant surfaces, we've been migrating that way anyway, these last numerous years now and so, yeah, , there are some similarities between the two programs at times it's really those key times of pre bloom and post bloom and variation that that we've traditionally. [00:14:34] Really locked in on some of the synthetic chemistries here [00:14:37] Craig Macmillan: And then also in June you have a Serenade Opti, which would be a Subtilis based material. And I believe that's also in your conventional in July. That's pretty standard practice, and that's an OMRI certified product, I believe. [00:14:52] Andrew Fles: Yes, yeah. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: There's some overlap there. It looks like the Rose Chaffer comes out around this time. [00:14:59] Andrew Fles: Yeah, probably it's not in front of me, but probably mid june [00:15:04] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's what you have here. In the traditional you've got a, a neonic, a sale. And then in the program, there's kind of a question mark here. What did you end up using in the, in the soft program for a roast chaffer? [00:15:19] Andrew Fles: Let me find it here [00:15:21] So we used neemix 4. 5 [00:15:26] Craig Macmillan: Nemix. I'm not familiar with that. Is that a Nemo based product? [00:15:28] Andrew Fles: Yeah, it's a neem oil [00:15:30] Craig Macmillan: And then in the traditional you have a neonic, a sail. Did you see a difference in Rose Chapter damage between the two? Because this is a pretty big difference here. [00:15:39] Andrew Fles: a pretty big difference in terms of [00:15:42] Craig Macmillan: Well, the modes of action obviously are very different. [00:15:45] Andrew Fles: Oh, sure, sure. Yeah, we had a little higher a little higher prevalence of rose chafers in mostly in the Pinot Noir treatments. Not so much in the Riesling, and I think that's largely because of black location. Traditionally the Pinot Noir block is our worst, one of our worst blocks in terms of rose chaffer rose chaffers are these beetles. [00:16:09] Of course, they're very similar to Japanese beetles for those listeners that, that may know that, but they really thrive in sandy soil, which is what we specialize here in northern Michigan, sandy based soil, right? [00:16:22] , and especially in un mowed fields. Right? We've really been trying to manage , our headland spaces like a prairie even more so upon joining SIP and, and learning more about making a comprehensive farm plan of, Of all of the land, right? And so we've really managed our, headlands and open fields like prairies which means minimal mowing, [00:16:47] like once a year is what we, we just mow to keep the autumn olive out. And and so we're trying to promote, you know, bird life and, and. All forms of life in these fields, which includes and sometimes an increase in rose chafers. [00:17:03] However, this 2024 was, was a. Fairly low pressure year. [00:17:09] And so I was very comfortable with, with sticking with this the soft insecticide. And we didn't feel like, you know, even though we saw this, this increase in pressure in the soft treatment, it wasn't surpassing the economic damage threshold that we are really keen. [00:17:27] And right. IPM [00:17:29] Craig Macmillan: So, true IPM. [00:17:31] Andrew Fles: IPM is very important, here, you know, where we have all these insects and it rains a lot and, you know, you got to really. Be ready to to, to scout and then react. [00:17:41] Craig Macmillan: Exactly. Yeah. And knowing what your economic injury limit is, I think it's huge. And your action threshold based on that. Tell me a little bit about the Spinosad based products. You have a couple in the soft that I assume are meant to be insecticides. [00:17:55] Andrew Fles: Yeah. The delegate. Yup. [00:17:56] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, Delegator and Trust. [00:17:59] Andrew Fles: I'll talk a little bit about intrepid as well. That's probably a foreign thing for any, any West coast listener, but that's intrepid is a it's a molting regulator and it's essentially for, in this case, for grapes, it's for grape berry moth. And this is an insect that is very difficult to do IPM on because there's a, there's kind of a morph that lives in northern Michigan that doesn't Go for the traps and so you can put traps out and it you just have no idea what's going on Because they just don't really care for the pheromones so they're really almost impossible to trap and I've talked numerous time with dr Rufus Isaacs about this and how do we you know get a handle on populations and you know They just can't get their traps to work up here. [00:18:50] We target with the intrepid, it's a, again, it's a molting regulator, so it just prevents them from developing, and it's very specific it's not a broad spectrum, so that goes on as a preventative where we have blocks near the woods, [00:19:05] because we see great berry moth coming in from wild, wild vines [00:19:10] that may or may not be in the woods, but we Where we see larva hatching is, is just kind of a perimeter. [00:19:16] So what we'll actually do is a perimeter spray. We don't even spray the whole block. We'll spray the outside row or two or three of each end. And then we just kind of blast it in. Along the, the other, you know, along the posts, the end posts. And that seems to work fairly well. [00:19:34] Craig Macmillan: Huh. [00:19:35] Andrew Fles: And then, as far as Delegate goes and Entrust those are Spinoza based products like you mentioned. [00:19:42] Those are primarily, you'll see that we put them on, well, I don't know... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35552250

268: How to Tackle Leadership Transitions Successfully 03/20/2025

268: How to Tackle Leadership Transitions Successfully Succession planning is essential for businesses navigating leadership changes due to retirement, promotions, or new opportunities. Erin Hoffman, Partner and Senior Consultant at Collaboration Business Consulting shares key strategies for success. Long-term exit strategies (3, 5, and 10 years) help ensure a seamless transition. Key considerations include: How will the company evolve? Will the current management team remain? Who needs leadership development? Aligning stakeholders—whether family or business partners—is crucial. Addressing emotions like frustration or uncertainty and acknowledging these feelings can ease transitions. A solid game plan should outline financial considerations, role transitions, and leadership development. Regular management meetings and third-party reviews help maintain accountability. Ongoing leadership development and multiple succession pathways provide flexibility. Transparency in succession planning builds confidence and stability, ensuring business continuity through leadership changes. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Succession planning is essential for businesses navigating leadership changes due to retirement, promotions, or new opportunities. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:22] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Erin Hoffman, Partner and Senior Consultant at Collaboration Business Consulting. [00:00:37] She explains that long term exit strategies from three, five, even 10 years helps ensure a seamless transition. [00:00:44] Key considerations include how will the company evolve? Will the current management team remain in place? And who needs leadership development? [00:00:53] Aligning stakeholders, whether it's family or business partners is crucial. Addressing emotions like frustration or uncertainty. And acknowledging these feelings can ease transitions. [00:01:03] A solid game plan should outline financial considerations, role transitions, and leadership development. Regular management meetings and third party reviews will help maintain accountability. Ongoing leadership development and multiple succession pathways provide flexibility. Because things are likely to change, transparency in succession planning builds confidence and stability ensuring that the business continues successfully throughout the leadership change. [00:01:29] If you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start, become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit us at vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community. [00:01:48] Now let's listen in. [00:01:53] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Erin Hoffman. She's a senior business consultant and partner at Collaboration Business Consulting. [00:01:59] And today we're going to talk about succession planning. Thanks for being on the podcast, Erin. [00:02:03] Erin Hoffman: Yes. Thank you. [00:02:05] Craig Macmillan: This is part of the SIP certified certification and one that I think is often overlooked and a lot of people don't really understand, but I think it's important no matter who you are. To take this into account. [00:02:15] So let's just start from the very basics. what is succession planning in business? [00:02:19] Erin Hoffman: Great question. Succession planning is really making sure that somebody besides you is available and ready to take on the reins or responsibilities when you leave or when you get promoted. And I think one of the things that people often overlook is they want to take on more responsibilities, but they're not thinking about, okay, if I'm doing that, who am I shifting some of those responsibilities down to? [00:02:42] Craig Macmillan: I noticed you mentioned in terms of also promotion. So there may be actually be some internal things within departments even that this could be important for. [00:02:49] Erin Hoffman: Absolutely. So often we think about succession planning of taking over the business or taking over the reins of the business or managers or leaders departure that can also mean, you know, I think managers, it's important to be thinking about their own promotion or taking on responsibilities as the business grows. [00:03:05] Craig Macmillan: And so why is this an important topic for people? [00:03:08] Erin Hoffman: This is probably the single most challenging issue for managers and leaders of businesses. Something that they often come to us and say, I wish I was more prepared or I wish I would have. Been doing this a few years ago. And it, it can really be a challenge for a business because there's a lot of institutional knowledge that is held within those managers and leaders. [00:03:26] And if they were to leave the business or when they want to retire, where does that transition go? It could take years to really get somebody up and ready. So that's why it's so important to think about. [00:03:36] Craig Macmillan: I'm guessing that this looks different for different types of businesses, different sizes of businesses. How would things be different for a small, let's say, family owned, family run business, as opposed to something that's maybe a little bit larger maybe it's a corporation, still perhaps owned by the family, but maybe a little bit different structure. [00:03:53] Erin Hoffman: Great question. All businesses, it starts with having a long term plan, but let's start with those smaller family businesses. It really starts with taking a look at what is that long term plan when we work with clients, we always look three, five years, and then maybe 10 or beyond what's that eventual retirement or exit plan and starting to align those actions with that. [00:04:13] So I'll give an example of a vineyard that maybe the owner is thinking about retiring in 10 years. They should be starting to think, what does that look like? Do I want it to remain a family business? Do I want management to remain in the business? If so, do I have those people in in place? So starting to think first, what is that long term goal? [00:04:33] And then we can start to work backwards into who needs to be developed or where there might be gaps. [00:04:39] Craig Macmillan: So what does this process actually look like? Like, when a client comes to you how does this actually play out? [00:04:44] Erin Hoffman: Great question. When we work with a client on this we start exactly there, what I, where I mentioned at the long term plan. So asking the leader or business owners, , what is that goal? What is that Long term strategy, not only for yourself and your retirement, but also for the business and what you want that legacy of the business to be and getting really clear on that. [00:05:05] Often there's especially family businesses, but also non family businesses. There's partners. So getting alignment between those partners on what that long term goal is. And from there, then we would make sure that we bring in, it. Potential successors. Often these are family members, sons or daughters bringing them into that process. [00:05:24] Once the owner is clear of what their goals are, , we want to bring in that the successor to start talking about what that looks like and make sure they're also aligned with the goal. [00:05:33] So that's our first step. The couple of things that we run into when going through that process is. Uncertainty of what that looks like for the person that's departing and really working through getting that clarity. [00:05:47] The other thing that we run into quite frequently is the emotions that are tied up in these types of changes. And we work with that throughout the whole process. So when we start, we let. Folks know that they're going to go through some stages similar to the stages of grief when they go through a succession planning process and as they go through that process because they will start to feel frustration or anger or, you know, frustration that the person that they're handing it off to isn't doing it the way they want it or not stepping up. [00:06:16] So there's a lot of different planning, but also emotion that comes into it. [00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: I can imagine this must be a very scary process for a lot of folks, because you're kind of looking at what, oh, wait a minute, like what's going to happen and what's possible to happen. And then there's the question of what's the best outcome. And that's where you're talking about getting the partners and the family involved. [00:06:37] So they're all sharing that same, that same vision. How do you facilitate that step? How do you get the players to kind of come together? [00:06:46] Erin Hoffman: You know, the 1st, as I mentioned, we start with if we're working with a business owner, we start with them because it really is about their desired outcomes and timeline. But we start with individual interviews and talk with each of the key. Individuals, partners key personnel in the business and also potential successors to really understand the motivations and desires, but also the other factors that might be impacting the business, the roles, the talent, et cetera. [00:07:15] So from there, once we have a good understanding and had a chance to hear everybody one on one, we bring everybody together in the decision making team. So this would be like your owners or partners or family and discuss, Hey, here's our findings. Here's where there's commonalities. [00:07:28] Here's where there's some, there may be differences. The first step is getting everybody on the same page with what, we're trying to achieve. [00:07:35] Craig Macmillan: Are these processes normally put into place or started by the leader, the, the owner, the CEO, whatever type of business it's structured as or is there some pressure from folks that see that there's going to be an exit at some point and they're like, Hey I'd like some stability here. I don't want to wake up one day and find out that my entire world has just came crashing down which is, which has happened to me [00:07:59] Erin Hoffman: Surprise. Yeah. Yeah, that's a, great question. And the answer is both. We've had both the , owner proactively come in and say, this is something they've been thinking about. And the successor the most common thing we hear from both parties is, Hey, we've been talking about this for a while and we haven't been able to make any headway. [00:08:18] It's not so much that it's not discussed or , they don't know. It's just. It's been this vague, long term kind of nebulous goal that there's always work to be done, it's always busy, and it doesn't get picked up. So when we talk to folks, either the successor or the leader is saying, Hey, we've been trying to do this and we just haven't seemed to figure it out. [00:08:39] Can you help us? And that's where we come in and we really have a structure to be able to start to Put all the pieces in place. We find that once people have a game plan, they're really good at carrying out the plan. usually business owners only go through this once in their lifetime. So it's really, there's not a blueprint. [00:08:54] Craig Macmillan: And this plan, I'm guessing, takes the form of a written living document [00:09:01] Erin Hoffman: We have a couple documents that we come away with. So the first one is going to be a partnership agreement. So typically. If the plan is to bring somebody into ownership, there's a period of time where and this is again, this is more for ownership. It might not be in for management teams, but if if there is a period of time where there's going to be some co ownership, we want to get everybody very clear on what is the decision making. [00:09:28] What is that going to look like as partners? What's the expectation for that retiring partner? And that the process of how that looks, this is where some of the things can go south or. Okay. Get ugly for families or businesses because nobody wants to talk about the money components of it. But then if there's misunderstandings, they could go south really quickly. [00:09:47] So we get clarity on that. That's 1 document. The other document is we create a milestone document, which is a year over year, or sometimes quarter over quarter plan of these are the shifts that are going to happen in the roles. Here's who's going to take on those responsibilities, maybe even days of the week. [00:10:04] How many days a week is that person going to be working? Maybe they're starting to step back all of that. [00:10:08] Craig Macmillan: So there may be some very specific things in terms of like job description, tasks assigned. Like you said, time allotted. How do you keep track of that moving forward? Because you're going to revisit this year to year. I imagine that these benchmarks need to be hit in order to keep things on track. [00:10:26] How does that process work? You put it on the calendar. Okay, next year on March 1st, we're going to meet and we're going to go over this again. [00:10:32] Erin Hoffman: We definitely want to build in that accountability to the plan because it's really easy to fall back into the habits of just doing it the way you've always done it. We recommend at the very least. That the the leaders are having a monthly management meeting, and this is getting talked about on a monthly basis. [00:10:49] We don't wanna put it in a drawer for a year and then pick it back up. And there should be some some openness to be able to hold each other accountable of, Hey, we're behind track on this, or we need to move forward on this. Uh, So that's, that's one of the things that we recommend. [00:11:02] The other piece. Our team can come in and help or getting somebody that's maybe that third party that , you're setting a meeting with maybe monthly or quarterly, or even semi annually, just to check in of where you're at. Increase that extra accountability of yes, we're sticking to the plan. It's like seeing your personal trainer and having to say you didn't do any of your push ups. [00:11:23] Craig Macmillan: Right, right, right, right. I like that analogy. That's a good one. That's a really, really good one. Accountability makes a big difference. [00:11:30] Erin Hoffman: for sure. [00:11:31] Craig Macmillan: yeah, I've worked on projects around that before. It's fascinating. Just simply saying, I am going to do this to another person goes a long way towards getting that thing done because you, you know, you made a promise. [00:11:42] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, I get a lot of that from our clients of, Oh, Erin, we knew we were going to meet with you next month. So we, we had to sit down and like, you know, knock it out. So it's like just that accountability of. [00:11:52] Craig Macmillan: What are some of the most common mistakes businesses make around succession planning? [00:11:58] Erin Hoffman: It's another great question. , there's a few. I think that one of the biggest ones that comes to mind, especially when it's a family business or an employee to an employer where that is stepping into the leadership. Often discount that person who's stepping into the role, how much they respect the person that's already in that role. [00:12:17] Let's say they're the, you know, the owner in this example. So they, one of the mistakes is that the owner is like, Oh, I'm just waiting for this person to step up. And in the meantime, I'm just going to keep doing the role. Like I've always done. They don't realize that that person under them respects them too much to say. Move out of the way. Let me, you know, I need to do this now. [00:12:37] So they there's a natural kind of deferment and it's even if that person is your parent and it's gonna even, you know, increase that. So really understanding that that's a natural dynamic that's going to happen and that . It's we're having that plan and being able to speak to the plan on a regular basis really comes into play. [00:12:55] So that's probably 1 of , the, the mistakes as I mentioned, talking about it, but not really moving anything forward is 1. [00:13:01] I think the other piece goes back. Into the, that the stages of grief or the emotion that comes in you know, I think it can be really difficult when suddenly feeling like, okay, what is my role in the business? [00:13:15] I hear that a lot from folks that are, even though their goal, they, they have a retirement in sight and that's their goal. There's a definite frustration or confusion of, okay, what now? What's next? And so there's. Tends to be you know, they go through bargaining. We had one client that was I think they were a week away from signing off a hundred percent of ownership to his son and came in and goes, know, I think we could extend this another three or four years, you know, just like, it was like they were working the plan and, [00:13:42] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:13:43] Erin Hoffman: But it really comes from a place of just that uncertainty and change that people run into. [00:13:48] So I think that's the other problem is when faced with that change in those emotions, sometimes they. Blame the process or the person and not that just recognizing that those are natural emotions. [00:13:58] Craig Macmillan: This is a little bit of a side, but how, how do you advise people around these emotional issues? Because you're moving from being a business consultant into being a therapist at this point. [00:14:07] Erin Hoffman: Yeah, a little bit. [00:14:09] Craig Macmillan: A little bit. A little bit. [00:14:10] Erin Hoffman: I think anybody that's in business and that, you know, deals with people realizes that that's, you know, that's the big component of it is you know, the working with people and , through all the challenges of emotions and things that happen. But One of the best things is knowing, normalizing it, letting people know this is normal and this is going to happen. [00:14:30] It really helps when somebody is going through that, those feelings to just know that they're normal and it's okay. And that they can feel it. It really is a relief for a lot of business owners, especially when they're having a consultant that's gone through it. to say, expect this to happen. It's completely normal. [00:14:49] It really can help just settle everything down. [00:14:52] Craig Macmillan: Without naming names, can you give us an example of a transition? And ownership or management that could have gone better. There's some thought had been put into secession planning earlier. Or at all. I would imagine some folks are coming to you kind of behind the curve on this, from what you're telling me. [00:15:10] Erin Hoffman: Sure. Absolutely. I think of one winery owner that came to us and he said, you know, I, I wanted to retire five years ago at this point he was in his seventies and so that that's always hard because the, the people on his team weren't. You know, I hadn't really started to develop yet. [00:15:29] So , that can be frustrating. And I think that it can be a real detriment to the business if that person just says, you know what, I'm done, you guys have it, you know, like, or I'm going to just sell it. It might not be the outcome that everybody would have... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35641275

265: How to Stand Out on Social Media in 2025 03/06/2025

265: How to Stand Out on Social Media in 2025 Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle. Emma Tessler, Founder & CEO of Ninety Five Media, has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect. Instead of trying to be everywhere, Emma suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms. To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video, and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use platform's data to see what people enjoy the most. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Social media like Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and LinkedIn can feel like a lot to handle. Welcome to Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Bets Vukmanic executive director. In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, critical resource manager at Niner Wine Estates with Longtime SIP Certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Emma Tessler, founder and CEO of 95 Media. Emma has some great advice to help you stand out online. She says it's important to have a clear brand message so your customers always know what to expect instead of trying to be everywhere. She suggests being consistent on just one or two platforms. To streamline your work, you can take one big piece of content, like a long video and turn it into different things like short videos, blog posts, and podcasts. Then use the platform's data to see what people enjoy the most. We know your customers are looking for sustainable wines. In a recent review of 30 studies, customers reported a higher preference for eco and social responsibility labels compared to nutrition labels. Achieving SIP certified gives you third party verification that your vineyard, winery, or wine has adopted and implemented stringent sustainable Standards apply for certification today by going to SIP certified.org and click on Get certified Now. Let's listen in. [00:01:39] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Emma Tesler. She is the founder of 95 media. And today we're going to talk about social media. Not surprisingly welcome to the podcast, Emma. [00:01:48] Emma Tesser: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here today. [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: First of all, let's talk a little bit, get some kind of grounding. How would you describe your company? 95 media? [00:01:55] Emma Tesser: We're a digital marketing agency and we really specialize in creating high converting content. We work with a lot of brands who are posting all the time and just simply not seeing results from that content. So that is usually where we come in and we build out customized strategy. High converting content, build that connection with their community and ultimately finally have their marketing convert into sales for them. At a high level, 95 media is a marketing agency specializing in social media, email and podcast production. [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: I'm kind of a dinosaur. So what exactly comes under the umbrella of social media? Because that seems to be a pretty big area. [00:02:37] Emma Tesser: It is, it definitely is a big umbrella. So when we talk about social media marketing, we're referring to any marketing content. Content that is marketing a brand on any of the social platforms we manage, profiles for brands on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Pinterest, TikTok a few other more specific ones to different industries. And really social media marketing encompasses your content, your engagement with your audience, the data that comes in from the content. There are a lot of different. avenues when it comes to your marketing and social media in general, but it is broad. And I think that sometimes that's the overwhelming part about it for some individuals and founders, people who are looking to market a brand, but it really doesn't have to be that complicated. You can really. own one platform really well and see better results by doing that than doing five not so well. [00:03:31] Craig Macmillan: Excellent. And different platforms with these companies, websites, et cetera, that you just discussed. And then content. I wanted to have you kind of elaborate on that a little bit because some things are videos, some things are just audio, some things are just text , what is content and what do we put in content? [00:03:53] Emma Tesser: Well, content looks different as you said, , between different platforms. So there's always opportunity to repurpose content, but oftentimes that looks like reformatting content as well. I'm a really big believer in. Having consistent brand messaging across all of your content, all of your platforms. And sometimes that looks like having the same messaging because when we have consistent messaging across every piece of content, it creates a consistent brand experience for our audience to know who we are and ultimately be able to identify our content without like our brand name on it, which is a whole other level of success. When we look at the individual platforms, You know, Tik Tok is a video only platform. And over on LinkedIn, some people don't think that that's really a video platform, but in fact it is. And LinkedIn is really favoring video content to the point where they actually have a video only feed on the app. Now that looks very similar to Tik Tok because they see the success that's happening over there, like every other platform. So what I would just encourage, if you're looking at content and you're thinking, Well, how do I do this on all the platforms and do it well? And it not be my entire life. I would look at creating one piece of content and then splitting it up into different formats. For example, you could take one 30 second video on a topic of something that, you know, really well, and you could. Reformat that video to be long form. It could be short form. You can write a blog post about it. You can make it a carousel for Instagram. You can pick one photo and transcribe that video into your caption. You can make it into your Instagram stories. You LinkedIn article on it. There's so many ways to go about really looking at how can you repurpose your content and have so many different formats of just one idea. [00:05:42] Craig Macmillan: Why is this important for business? Why can't I just go along like I've always gone along? Maybe I've got a website, put some stuff on there, print advertising, et cetera. Why is social media so important? [00:05:57] Emma Tesser: Well, the reason it's so important is because the way that consumers are finding and discovering brands has shifted. Prior to, you know, call it five years really has been the biggest shift that we've seen on social, but really just this shift towards social media marketing, which has been in the works since about 2015 or so. We used to discover brands through going to Google or through word of mouth. You know, we work with a lot of brands who come, we were like, We used to be just referral. Like we used to get all our business through referral, you know, local, this local, that, and it's just dried up and it's not working the same way it used to. And that is because we're moving towards this culture of social search. There's data that shows that in the last 90 days, 91 percent of consumers used social media and only 84 percent of people went to a search engine like Google. So what. We used to discover on Google, there's actually more people discovering brands on Instagram , than they are in Google today. So in order to stay competitive, in order to be found and to be showing up in the searches that people are typing in and using keywords that maybe you were once showing up on, on Google, you now need to have your content be showing up on Instagram, on Tik TOK, on LinkedIn. So in order to continue growing, it's really a non negotiable going into 2025 to have a social media presence and to have it. optimize to meet your consumer where they're at. [00:07:21] Craig Macmillan: You may have actually kind of already touched on this or answered this. I was thinking that, you know, if you just have an Instagram account, does that count as a social media presence? Do I need to be on all these different platforms? And it sounds like what you're saying is it's better to kind of focus on one or two or three and do those really, really well, rather than try to be everywhere all the time for everybody. [00:07:41] Emma Tesser: Yeah. And I say that because consistency is everything. So if you have the bandwidth for three separate posts per week, it is so much better to have those three pieces of content live on Instagram, then spread it out. So you have one on Instagram, one on LinkedIn, one on Tik TOK, because one post a week is not going to do. Literally anything for you. You need to have consistent quantity of content going out there. So I would really look at one platform and optimize. And strategically approach that platform so that you're finally getting results there before you add on additional ones. Because you'll be able to take the data from that successful content to know what your audience is looking for and begin to just redo that type of content in different ways for another platform down the road. [00:08:30] Craig Macmillan: A friend of mine does a lot of Instagram and she says I've got to have at least one thing per week, one thing per week. Is that a good time frame? Do I need to be posting more often, more frequently, shorter bits? What's the, what's the best strategy? [00:08:43] Emma Tesser: So I don't recommend less than three posts to your feed every week. Less than three posts per week. Again, that's to your feed. That doesn't count like Instagram stories outside of that. But when we look at your feed, the reason why you want to have more content than once per week is because what happens when you post is that the algorithm puts your content out there and it's like, dangling it in front of your audience. It's waiting for people to bite and engage with that piece of content. If they do, then that piece of content starts being shown to more people. If they don't, it then gets suppressed and the algorithm says, Oh, well, people aren't really liking this. We're not going to show it. But when you post more, you have more opportunities for people to bite and to get more people seeing your content. AKA brand awareness. Really, every piece of content you're looking to increase your brand awareness because that's your top of funnel. You have to get more reach. You have to get more impressions in order to bring people down the sales funnel to the ultimate conversion point. So more content ultimately just results in more brand awareness, more engagement with your content, more eyes on your brand, which is truly the goal in order to get more people to buy as a secondary result of that piece of content. [00:09:57] Craig Macmillan: this sounds like getting to folks who are outside just your followers. And, and trying to find new folks to come into your herd, into your house. [00:10:09] Emma Tesser: How do we do that? Is that the question? [00:10:11] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, I was just trying to clarify. So what it sounds like, cause like, I've always been like, Oh, how many followers do they have? And then I'm like, well, how do you get new followers? It sounds to me like maybe it's not just about followers. It's about just exposure in general. [00:10:22] Emma Tesser: It's definitely not about followers. To be honest, that's the metric that I care the least about. We don't work with brands who just want to grow their followers because it's, it truly does not have an impact on your bottom line. What has an impact on your bottom line are the conversations that you're having, the engagement with your content, you know, engagement also looks like your DMS too. Like if you're not looking at your DMS as an opportunity to sell, you're missing a huge opportunity. Your content can only do so much for you. A couple of years ago, your content could do the heavy lifting, but now a huge part of marketing your brand is really your community engagement. And that's the missing piece for a lot of businesses that like, we kind of come in and we change the game for them because A lot of what we do is actually getting into the account us as humans, getting into the account nurturing the people who already know about them to bring them closer to the sale. But really a huge part of our work is outbound engagement and bringing in new eyes to the business. And we do that through starting new conversations, leaving comments on people's content, getting in the groups that your ideal client is in and engaging with that content so that they see that comment. And then go back to your profile. So there's a lot of different angles you can take, but at the end of the day you're trying to increase awareness of your brand, which oftentimes look like your, your reach of your content and your profile. Because ultimately that number has to be bigger for the amount of people who go to your profile to increase and then follow you and then engage with your content and ultimately buy from you. So we're looking at like this funnel down where you have to start with a big pool of people because. We know that only a very small percentage of those people are ultimately going to buy. And that's okay, but we're only going to make as much of that percentage as we increase the, the top line the top line number. [00:12:08] Craig Macmillan: In terms of attracting folks there's a concept that you've mentioned in your on your website and your podcast and your blog, which I think is really interesting, and that's the idea of authority and how important it is to be viewed as an authority in the digital space. How do you define that? Like, what does authority look like? What does it do for you and how do I build it? [00:12:29] Emma Tesser: Authority really means that you're standing out in your industry. . There's not very many original ideas anymore. There's not very many original things that we can all be doing. , if you look at 95 Media, for example, there's a million and one people in social media marketing these days. But what makes us different is the way that we approach our content, the way that we approach our clients businesses, the way that we execute our work, and ultimately what that results in is building authority. Building authority can happen in so many different ways, a great way of looking at it is just leaning into the, how you do things and what makes that different. There's a lot of noise on social and it's easy to feel like You're in a space that's too saturated and it's not worth creating the content because you're just going to get lost in the noise. The thing is, if you have authority and if you have that unique factor to who you are and who your brand is, you do stand out. And that is ultimately going to be the reason why someone chooses to buy from you rather than the person down the street who does the exact same thing. So rather than hide and Hush down the things that set you apart. I would really lean into them because that is really what's going to A make you stand out, B, give you authority and C it drive more sales for you. [00:13:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I identify the things that are going to make me stand out? when talking about like the wine business, or the vineyard side, everybody makes wine. Everybody farms. What's the process that I can go through? Like with one of your clients, how do you help them identify what makes them stand out or what makes them interesting? [00:14:04] Emma Tesser: . So we actually work with a client in the wine space right now. She is a female founder in California where there's not a lot of female winemakers. It's a really unique space and that's a huge part of their mission as well. . Obviously, if you're a mission driven brand leaning hard into that, because the people who care about that mission are going to be your target demographic for buying your product. And that's a really big part of her marketing is, , we're here for female founders. We're here for being inclusive. We're here for, you know, really raising awareness around an audience that. isn't always spoken to on social in that space. If you aren't a mission driven brand, nothing wrong with it, but I would look at your company, your team. If you have like a tasting room associated with your, company, or if you do anything different or slightly unique in any part of your process, sometimes we get caught up. In the details as founders, as business owners, and we start to think that like everything we do is really boring, you know, like, nothing about my day is unique, nothing about the way that we do things is unique, but truly take that step back, maybe ask your team or ask like a really loyal And buyer for you. Ask someone in your life or like a business coach or someone like, what do you think makes us stand out? What do you think makes us different? Because I would bet to say that someone else is going to be able to easily identify those things for you. Given 10 minutes, because they're on the outside looking in, it's really hard to see it when you're in it, but that is also one of the great benefits of Working with an outside marketing team because that's their job. You know, we come in and we identify those factors for our clients in that exact way because it's easy to see it on the outside. And also knowing what matters to your target demographic can help you get closer to that understanding too. [00:15:49] Craig Macmillan: How do I know who my target demographic is? Hahahahaha [00:15:57] Emma Tesser: job. Like that's, that's the whole business, right? I mean, it's, it's easy to say like, well, you know, most people drink wine, but I have limited knowledge of the wine industry and I don't know that the majority of wine drinkers are women, right? So even if you just started there. Now you're focusing on 50 percent of the population rather than 100%. And then could you get a little bit more detailed? Could you look at a more specific age range? Could your branding tell you something about the age range that you're targeting? And then you really just kind of go from there. Not to mention, if you have an existing social media presence, you can go into your analytics and it will tell you who's following you. [00:16:29] Craig Macmillan: And you can use that data to further inform your ideal client avatar. How do I identify what platforms are gonna be best for me? There's, we've talked about this a little bit, but how do I know whether I should focus on video or podcast or blog posts primarily? How how can I decide whether it should be photo? [00:16:47] Craig Macmillan: How do I kind of guess at like which type of content, not content itself, but what form it's in, is probably gonna be most effective for me. [00:16:56] Emma Tesser: the truth is that video is necessary. And that's not the answer anyone wants to hear, but it's not really an option going into 2025, unfortunately, if you want to look at it like that. The thing about video and why I say that is because every platform is favoring video content. So if you back up, like, could you get away with not doing video content? Sure. But will you be competitive against everyone else in your space? No, you won't. Your content is going to get lost because the video content that your competitors are... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35461935

264: (Rebroadcast) How to Talk SIP with 6 Wine Consumer Segments | Marketing Tip Monday 02/24/2025

264: (Rebroadcast) How to Talk SIP with 6 Wine Consumer Segments | Marketing Tip Monday Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. A few years ago, identified six distinct consumer segments in the US market and we wondered “how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences?” Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with . We know customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing so you can show your customers that you share their values. In this Throwback Thursday Marketing Tip, we’re revisiting the six wine consumer segments and giving you tips on how to most effectively share your sustainable story with each one. 1. Engaged Explorers Who are they: Young, adventurist, frequent wine drinkers who love to try wines from different regions and producers. Talk SIP: Tell them how you improve your soil quality and how the health of your land influences the characteristics of your wine. They’ll love learning how nature impacts a high-quality wine. 2. Premium Brand Suburban Who are they: Mid- to older-aged enthusiasts who know a lot about wine. They may not be big spenders, but they can be die-hard loyalists. Talk SIP: Get technical! Talk about how fruit quality is measured (Brix, pH, and TA). They’ll love the insight and attention to detail. 3. Contended Treaters Who are they: Mid- to older-aged drinkers who don’t drink often, but when they do, they are willing to spend more. They are knowledgeable and involved, and look for an engaging story to relay to their social circles. Talk SIP: Give them fun sustainable tidbits to share with their friends, like a specific from your sustainable story worksheet. | 4. Social Newbies Who are they: Young, new to wine, and rely heavily upon recommendations and valued information. Talk SIP: Stick to the 3 P’s of sustainability: People, Planet, Prosperity. They’ll love this 360° approach and be able to pass it along with confidence. 5. Senior Bargain Hunters Who are they: The largest segment of wine drinkers in USA. They have strong wine knowledge and tend to select from a narrow range of styles and brands to meet their expectations on value. Talk SIP: Talk value-driven sustainable initiatives like monitoring utility usage and recycling programs. 6. Kitchen Casuals Who are they: Very infrequent wine drinkers who stay close to what they know. Talk SIP: Stick to the basics of what sustainability is and how drinking sustainable wine is a win for the people and the planet. We are here to help you tell your customers how your brand protects natural and human resources with the Sustainable Story program. This simple yet powerful free tool helps you tell your own personal sustainable message. And it just got better with a new online course. Go to the show notes, click the link titled Tell Your Sustainable Story to sign up, and start writing your Sustainable Story today! Until next time, this is with the Vineyard Team. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35378980

263: Make Better Wines with Bioinformatics 02/20/2025

263: Make Better Wines with Bioinformatics Tiny microbes have a big impact on wine quality. Aria Hahn, CEO and co-founder of Koonkie, Inc., discusses the exciting work her bioinformatics organization is doing in the field of metagenomics. Hahn explains the differences between genetics, genomics, and metagenomics. She shares insights from a project studying yeast populations in British Columbia's Okanagan region, revealing the diversity and distinct clades found on wine grapes. The conversation also covers the broader applications of bioinformatics in agriculture, including regenerative farming, soil health, and potential bioprotectants against wine spoilage. Hahn underscores the impact of microbiome management on wine terroir and the potential of bioinformatics in understanding and improving winemaking processes. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Tiny microbes have a big impact on wine quality. [00:00:09] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I am Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:19] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Aria Hahn, CEO and co founder of Koonkie Inc. [00:00:35] She discusses the exciting work her bioinformatics organization is doing in the field of metagenomics. Hahn explains the differences between genetics, genomics, and metagenomics. [00:00:47] She shares insights from a project studying yeast populations in one of British Columbia's wine growing regions, revealing the diversity and distinct clades found on wine grapes. [00:00:58] The conversation also covers the broader applications. bioinformatics in agriculture, including regenerative farming, soil health, and potential bioprotectants against wine spoilage. [00:01:09] Hahn underscores the impact of microbiome management on wine terroir and the potential for bioinformatics in understanding and improving the winemaking process. [00:01:19] We know your customers are looking for sustainable wines. In a recent review of 30 studies, Customers reported a higher preference for eco label and social responsibility labels compared with nutrition labels. Achieving SIP certified gives you third party verification that your vineyard winery or wine has adopted and implemented stringent sustainable standards. Apply today at SIP certified. org. [00:01:46] Now let's listen [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Aria Hahn. She is the CEO and co founder of Koonkie, Inc., a bioinformatics organization, business, doing all kinds of exciting stuff. Thanks for being on the podcast, Aria. [00:02:02] Aria Hahn: Yeah, so excited to be here. Thanks for [00:02:04] Craig Macmillan: We're going to get into the thick of it But we were attracted to some work that you folks and your colleagues have done with bioinformatics and yeast, wild yeast. But I wanted to drop back. A little bit first to kind of give some context. All of this kind of comes under the umbrella of metagenomics, correct? [00:02:21] Aria Hahn: Yeah, absolutely. [00:02:22] Craig Macmillan: and what is metagenomics? [00:02:24] Aria Hahn: I'm going to take further step back and talk about genomics um, maybe the distinction between genomics and genetics. [00:02:32] So genetics is something I think most people kind of understand. They have this intuitive sense of it. um, that make up ourselves and all living creatures. But it actually turns out that in most organisms, and not bacteria, and we'll get there in a Most of your DNA is not in genes. It's in between genes. And so genomics is the study of genes and all of the things that are in between genes. So that's kind of the distinction between genetics and genomics. And then metagenomics is when we do that at the community level. [00:03:02] so you could do metagenomics of humans, but metagenomics refers to populations of bacteria, uh, microbes, archaea, viruses, things that you cannot see and I'll say interact with directly. [00:03:17] Craig Macmillan: And then bioinformatics is a subset or is a technique, is that correct? [00:03:23] Aria Hahn: Yeah, it's a technique, you know, it used to be even 10, 15 years ago that everyone kind of did their own bioinformatics. And so really what that means is when we sequence DNA or read that DNA, so it's only four letters, ATCs and Gs, we extract the DNA the sample is, could be the surface of grapes, uh, a human, anything. [00:03:42] Um, Then we put it on a sequencer. There's a bunch of different sequencing technologies right now. Um, But you end up with these like very gross files that aren't openable on regular computers and they're literally just ATCs and Gs. And so bioinformatics is the cross section of high performance computing and biology. And so we develop algorithms and processes and pipelines to really take those gross huge files of ATCs and Gs and make them human readable. make them interesting, figure out, you know, what are the genes that are there? Who is there? What are they doing? And who's doing what? [00:04:19] Craig Macmillan: Okay, and I think that's the important part here is you would take a sample from the environment. We'll talk about this one more in a second, but there are particular sequences that may be associated with a certain type of microbe or even a particular genus or particular species of microbe that can be detected. [00:04:39] Aria Hahn: Yes, absolutely. [00:04:40] So a genome is all of the DNA that makes up that organism. So you and I have distinct genomes, but of course, our genomes are going to be pretty similar to each other compared to a human genome, to a fish, to a plant, to a [00:04:55] Craig Macmillan: why the focus on microbes? [00:04:57] Aria Hahn: Yeah, that's a great question. It depends how philosophical You want to get You know, people are generally [00:05:02] familiar with the concept of like the Higgs boson particle. It's like the God particle that makes up everything and that's great and the physicists are gonna come for me. But when we think about our planet Earth, I always say like If there is a god particle on this planet that is alive and that we interact with, like, it's a microbe. [00:05:21] This is their planet. They were here long before us and they will surely be here long after us. So we think about microbes in terms of they are the destroyers of higher level populations. They keep us healthy. They make us I'm going to say it's a great example, but it wasn't a great thing. [00:05:40] So caveat that. But COVID was a great example about how this is not our planet where we had an of a virus in one location in a very particular place in the world. And all of a sudden it was across the planet. We are vectors for them. [00:05:58] You know, looking at those maps and showing the spread and how quickly it happened, I like to use that often in visual presentations to say, if you don't believe me, like, look at this. It's spread through us. [00:06:10] Craig Macmillan: Right. And I think also this gets to some other things we might talk about later on, but there are communities of microbes that are associated with certain macroorganisms. [00:06:23] Aria Hahn: uh, so are, they're everywhere, they're on your um, there's lots of research in the cosmetic industry that's looking at that. There was this crazy CEO years ago where he was I'm gonna slather this microbial laden cream on my skin and then I'm never gonna shower again and I'm not gonna smell. Not necessarily like my cup of tea, I love a good hot shower. But, you know, it can be there. The soil is the microbial diverse environment on the planet. , But your gut, like you, you as a human being, can't actually digest your food without those microbes. You can't get those vitamins and nutrients that you need without that community in your stomach. [00:07:03] Plants work the same We say charismatic macrofauna, eagles, whales, things that are very Um, They, they don't to, you the seaweed and the weeds and the grass and kind of everything in between. it's All supported by the microbiome, by these microbial communities. [00:07:20] Craig Macmillan: so let's talk about one microbiome in particular, and that would be populations of yeast that we find on wine grapes. [00:07:29] Aria Hahn: Yeah, yeah. So we've looked at yeast and bacteria and they're both cool. [00:07:34] Craig Macmillan: That is super cool. And so this one particular project where you looked at yeast on wine grapes in British Columbia Tell us a little bit about that project [00:07:41] Aria Hahn: there's, So I live in I'm, I'm right in the thick of, you know, BC wine country, which is a fantastic place to live, we were fortunate enough to work with the Wine Research Institute out of the University of British Columbia, Vivian Mease Day's group. them and They do very, very cool work, but they were trying to look at the yeast populations in wineries across the Okanagan region. [00:08:02] We know that the history of lots of commercial. Yeasts are actually from oak trees in Europe. So that's very cool. And what we wanted to see is how are the yeasts that are being used to produce wine in the Okanagan region distinct and similar to commercial yeasts and yeasts that have been characterized from across and so We did just that and we were actually able to sequence a whole bunch of yeast. And so, again, that's like reading the genome effectively there. so we found four distinct clades, um, in the Okanagan region. And a clade is they're related groups, and so it's not like you and you're a twin where you might have an identical, uh, genome to a twin. [00:08:50] It's more like you and your cousins and second cousins and second cousins twice removed and, you're, you're kind of vaguely related to each other. You kind of cluster over here, but you're not necessarily super We've kind of found four clades that the 75 yeast strains that we studied in that particular piece of work Really related to, then we looked at like what is different in their genomes. [00:09:12] So they're all the same species. That's the first thing to, to think about here. So just like you and I are the same species, they're all the same species, but just like you and I, we have different areas of, of specialties. Some people podcasters. Some people are, artists and scientists and, um, kind of everything in between. [00:09:33] And we need everybody. So, we're all the same species, but we have different specialties. And the yeasts work very similarly to that. [00:09:40] Craig Macmillan: all right, so this is interesting to me so You go out and you you said when you looked at 75 species of yeast or different types of yeast Those are ones that you, you found. It wasn't like you went in and said, I want to test for each of these 75. You got information, you got data in and said, Oh, look, here's 75 different types of [00:10:01] organism. Yes, that's a, that's a great Um, so, we And we uh, the ferment or the, the yeast skins and we extract the DNA and then we get rid of the great DNA, which could probably also be really cool, but we didn't look at it in this case. And kind of threw that into the and then said, okay, we're just going to focus on the Saccharomyces cerevisiae Latin term for a very common yeast strain, um, used in wine. And we said, we're going to look for it. [00:10:30] Aria Hahn: Then we found actually hundreds and . And then, um, and I didn't do this work, I don't do a lot of lab work myself, so, uh, this part is kind of the edge of my knowledge. But there is some ways to kind of do microsatellite clustering. And so you look, and you look for tiny differences in the genome, and you say, okay, maybe we found 500, but we actually want to look at ones that are distinct from one another. So we don't want to randomly pick 75, we want to pick 75. strains of this yeast that are different from one another. [00:11:01] And so you could use some lab techniques to make that happen. And then you take those hundreds and we say, these are the 75 that we know are different. We're going to dive deep into those 75 so that we can kind of get this breadth of genetic diversity from the region. [00:11:18] Craig Macmillan: And that was something I was thinking about. You mentioned you took samples from either fermenting wine or recently fermented wine or from skin material. How exactly is this collected so that you know that you're getting just [00:11:30] what you want? [00:11:31] Aria Hahn: Yeah. Painfully is the answer. So like when you do soil sampling, it's actually really And we tell people all the time sampling for yeast or microbes is not that complicated. I say every single time we talk to a client, I'm like, look, wash your hands with ethanol, you know, hand sanitizer, essentially between rinse your tools. And mainly you can't mess this up as long as you don't spit in the bag or bleed in the And I say this every time, and I will say one out of every few hundred samples is full of blood. Hands down like you always think we always the that and then hands down. We're like, this is full of And I think it's just like a matter of working in the field like people nick themselves They don't really realize that but really that kind of thing is really easy [00:12:15] When it comes to sampling a ferment that can also be fairly easy. [00:12:19] You have a lot of it You can kind and put it in a jar, but I will Um, Jay Marknack, who's done a lot of this work and developed a lot of these methods, he actually developed this method that is painstaking. Um, But you have like, he's got this method where he takes the grapes really carefully without touching them off of the and then washes just like very carefully with these like rinse solutions to really just get the microbes and yeast that are on that surface without touching it, without touching other surfaces. It's really just what was there in the field. And rinse all of that off. And you can imagine that's not that fun of a Um, And, and, and so, and it wasn't like he did it on his first try either. So he's now developed that we're copying and using, thank goodness. Uh, But it can be like that kind of painful where it's like washing individual grapes, collecting that rinse water, and then filtering that rinse water, like onto a physical filter, then extracting the DNA from that filter. [00:13:18] It's not fast. [00:13:19] Craig Macmillan: Nope, that's what I wanted to know. I've collected a lot of soil samples in my life for looking at soil microbiome. And you know, technique is everything. You know, contamination will mess you up pretty badly. [00:13:29] Aria Hahn: We had this one study I felt so bad, but they had collected these samples. They sent us the samples and we get the data back and it's, they're soil, they should be teeming with life, right? [00:13:38] And there's like one species basically in this thing, like there's a handful, but like one is dominating. So we go to them and we're like, what is going on here? And they're like, well, I don't see how that could have happened. , we've been storing these in a dark closet for a year. And we're like, that's why. You are studying bottle effects right here. And they're like, oh, we thought it'd be fine because it was dark and cool. And we're like, yeah, but it's not open to the air, and it doesn't have the plants and animals and bugs. You grew one guy. [00:14:07] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. We've been talking about bacteria, or the yeast. Are there other types of organisms, microorganisms, that you can use this technique with? [00:14:14] Aria Hahn: Totally. So you can use this technique on basically anything that's alive. So you could target viruses, uh, not something we've done on wineries, but could absolutely do it. You can target, , archaea, which are very similar to bacteria in that there are a single cell. But they are similar to eukaryotes. [00:14:32] So things that are bigger, um, like us, like mammals, like fish, Uh, but they are kind of small and invisible, , to the naked eye like bacteria. So those, we can, we can do that all the way up to, any animal that we can see, feel, touch, , and kind of anything in between. So it's a really powerful technique. As long as it has DNA, we can make this work. [00:14:53] Craig Macmillan: So you found these 75 types? of yeast organisms, but they fell into groups, they fell into clades. And I thought that was one of the most interesting things about this. Can you tell us a little bit about the natural history of behind these clades and kind of what that means? [00:15:09] Aria Hahn: We found these 75 different strains and they did group into four clades. So four kind of groups of more or less related organisms. So you can think of them as like clustering based on similarity. [00:15:22] The first one was one that is well known and well studied. So that's wine and European. And so those strains are more similar to these that we see in wines out of Europe and commercial strains. [00:15:35] And then the second clade we saw was the trans pacific oak. So a lot of wine yeast are very closely related to yeast that are found on oak trees. And so actually think that, , the original, , European wine yeast strains from, you know, the 1800s are from Mediterranean oak trees. And so it's not uncommon that we see these strains related to oak. [00:15:59] So that was the trans pacific oak. Then we see another group or clade that we called beer one mixed origin. And so we saw similarities to known previously studied yeast strains that are related to beer, sake, so other kind of fermented drinks. also kind of expected. [00:16:18] And then what was really exciting is that we found a new clade that we've designated the Pacific West Coast wine clade. it's always neat when you get to discover something new, of course. And so it has high nucleotide diversity. And so what that means is that even within this clade we do see a lot of genetic diversity kind of in there. [00:16:38] And what we do know is that that whole clade shares a lot of characteristics with wild North American oak strains, but, and this is kind of where like it all kind of comes full circle, but we also see that it has gene flow from the wine European and Ecuadorian clades. It can mean a couple of things. So it could mean that There is just so much selective pressure when you're, when you're trying to make good wine that these genes that are found in European wine strains, commercial wine strains, they're present in Saccharomyces cerevisiae in general, but then when we try to make good wine, we select for strains that have these, genes, , that we know produce good wine, because they produce good wine everywhere. [00:17:27] And so it could just be this process of natural selection. It also could be that most wineries , are not purists. It's not that. never in their history have other wine strains visited their their vineyards. They might have tried a commercial strain. They have wine from others, you know, people track things in, animals track things in. And so it could just be that there is this gene flow, quite literally from, from Europe, from these wine strains that just kind of comes into our population here in the Pacific West Coast. [00:18:00] And so there's kind of these, these two ways that we could have got these things, We do have some evidence to suggest that they were actually transferred in. [00:18:07] So it's called horizontal gene transfer. And my go to example on how horizontal gene transfer works... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/35248095

262: A Vineyard Research Site to Study Soil Health 02/06/2025

262: A Vineyard Research Site to Study Soil Health Winegrowing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils, to low organic matter, to nematodes. Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA-ARS and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. They are testing a variety of management strategies including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt build-up, mowing for weed management, compost applications and synthetic fertilizers, and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling, Devin explains X-ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure and organic matter from soil columns and aggregates. X-ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Wine growing regions in Washington State have many unique challenges from salty soils to low organic matter to nematodes. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Devin Rippner, Research Viticulture Soil Scientist with USDA ARS. [00:00:41] Devin and his colleagues at Washington State University are developing a research vineyard to study soil health building practices. [00:00:49] They are testing a variety of management strategies, including adjusting irrigation volume to correct for salt buildup, mowing for weed management, Compost applications and synthetic fertilizers and different cover crops. The team is tracking the cost of each practice and will ultimately evaluate wine quality in the coming years. [00:01:08] Taking a deeper dive into the future of soil sampling. Devin explains X ray CT imagery. He has used this technology to evaluate the structure in organic matter from soil columns and soil aggregates. X ray CT imagery has also been used to evaluate the impact that grape seeds have on tannin flavor profiles. [00:01:28] Now let's listen in. [00:01:29] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Devin Rippner. He is a research soil scientist with the USDA agricultural research service. He's based out of Prosser, Washington, and he's also an adjunct in the department of crop and soil sciences with Washington state university. [00:01:46] Devin, thanks for being here. [00:01:48] Devin Rippner: Absolutely. Pleasure to be here, Craig. [00:01:50] Craig Macmillan: You are on the leadership team of the Washington State Soil Health Initiative. I think it's a pretty cool little program. Tell us what it is and what it's all about. [00:01:59] Devin Rippner: Yeah, absolutely. So the Washington State Legislature allocated funding to study soil health and soil health building practices in a variety of agricultural systems and so to access that money a number of groups put in competitive proposals at the Prosser Irrigated Agriculture Research and Extension Center, we put in a proposal to study soil health in wine grape systems. [00:02:24] Originally, we actually had it in juice grapes as well, but we were not able to get enough funding for both. Juice grapes are actually a big product out of Washington. [00:02:32] Craig Macmillan: I did not know that. That's interesting. What varieties? [00:02:34] Devin Rippner: Mostly Concord? [00:02:36] I'm less familiar with it. It's something I would, I would like to work in cause they have different constraints than wine grapes. [00:02:41] Ours is focused on wine grapes, but there are systems looking at tree fruit, at potatoes, at small crane cropping systems. There are a variety of systems that are being evaluated. [00:02:54] Craig Macmillan: I looked at a flyer that kind of outlined some of the ideas and issues around , the Wine Grape part. Can you tell us a little bit about that? [00:03:01] Devin Rippner: we have fairly unique soils. We have pretty alkaline soils here in Washington. We're on the arid side of the Cascades. So think Reno rather than like Seattle. we tend to accumulate salts. We also have very coarse textured soils. So a lot of sands to sandy loams or loamy sands. Very little clay. [00:03:23] We have typically under 10 percent clay in a lot of the grape growing regions of washington. we also have low organic matter, because it doesn't rain much here. There has never been a chance for a lot of plants to grow. And so we just have never really built up organic matter. So we typically have about, let's say, maybe 1 percent to 2 percent organic matter in our soils. [00:03:44] That's about half a percent carbon to 1 percent carbon, which is typically it's pretty low for a lot of soils. [00:03:50] Craig Macmillan: It is. [00:03:51] Devin Rippner: those are some of, some of the like unique challenges around soil health. There's also problems with pests. Haven't had too much of an issue with Phylloxera. That's changing. [00:04:01] There are a variety of nematode pests that cause problems in grapes here. When you plant a vineyard into an old vineyard, you're basically putting baby vines into a place that might have a bunch of pests that aren't a big deal for really mature vines. [00:04:14] But as soon as you put a baby in that environment, it does not thrive. [00:04:18] Finding ways to deal with nematode pests, things like that over time , is really important. So those are kind of the things that we are, we are looking at, at our site. [00:04:27] Craig Macmillan: What kind of practices are you investigating to address these things? I hadn't really thought of that about it till now, but nematode is a good one. that's a tough pest. [00:04:37] Devin Rippner: funny thing is this is a long term site, right? So, so our practices for those will really come later. I had a nematologist that worked for me. And she evaluated our soils for for the pathogenic nematodes for wine grapes, and we don't really have them but the thing is they build over time, right? [00:04:52] Just because there might be a few in that soil But when they start colonizing the grape roots over time, they can become problematic We functionally have a rootstock trial at the end of all of our experimental rows and, and rootstocks have been found to be very effective at preventing nematode problems or decreasing the severity of nematode problems. [00:05:13] We will be able to kind of look at that with our rootstock trial. [00:05:17] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any of the GRN stocks in that? [00:05:19] Devin Rippner: We don't, so we have own rooted vines and then we have Telekey 5c 1103p 110r. Let's see then I think St. George [00:05:30] I'm trying to remember what, what the last one is. It's escaping me right now. I apologize. [00:05:34] Craig Macmillan: Well, no, it's all right. Some of the more common root stocks, basically the ones that are very popular. [00:05:39] Devin Rippner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [00:05:41] The reality is that a lot of the like vitis rupestris, vitis riparia, , they are less prone to nematode parasitism. Than Vinifera. , that's the reality of it. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Less susceptible. I think it's probably the best way to put it. Nothing's bulletproof when it comes to this, this problem. [00:05:57] Devin Rippner: And Michelle Moyer in Washington has been doing a lot of work with this, with Inga Zasada, who's a USDA scientist. And their, their results are really cool. They're finding that when you try to fumigate, it helps for a little while, but the rebound is bad, and it's just easier to just use rootstocks. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah. Talk to me a little bit more about, you said salinity can be an issue [00:06:19] Devin Rippner: Yeah, [00:06:20] Craig Macmillan: So here's the, the back and forth on that. You would think that a, a coser, your textured soil salinity would be less of an issue, but you don't get the rain to take advantage of that. Is that , the issue here? [00:06:30] Devin Rippner: 100%. That's exactly it. We build up layers called caliche layers, which are evidence of a lack of water moving downward. [00:06:38] So it's, it's really evidence of water moving down and then back up due to evaporation. We get big buildups of carbonates in our soils and carbonates are a type of salt. [00:06:48] So as you apply other chemicals, Salts, a salty irrigation water , we tend to build up salts in our soils. A lot of our irrigation water comes from the Yakima River or other rivers in the area, columbia River. But there are places where people are on deeper wells and they are seeing salt accumulation in their vineyards. [00:07:06] And it's, it's really challenging to deal with. [00:07:09] Craig Macmillan: Do you have any strategies that you're looking at? Anything you're trying out? [00:07:13] Devin Rippner: at our site over time, we're going to look at higher irrigation volumes versus lower irrigation volumes and seeing if that will change the accumulation of salt at our site. , that's kind of the main experiment around that with our soil health vineyard. [00:07:27] Craig Macmillan: Obviously you're doing this with some pretty salty irrigation water and you're comparing that to less salty water. At one site, you're only gonna have one type of water, right? [00:07:36] Devin Rippner: Right. That's not something that we'll be able to do, but one of the interesting things is we are applying compost and. Our compost can be pretty salty. [00:07:45] So we'll, we'll be getting compost. That'll be kind of four decisiemen per meter. I I'm sorry to use those units and so that, so that is salty. [00:07:54] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, it's salty. [00:07:55] Devin Rippner: Young grapevines, if they grew only in that, they would really struggle. It's over the, the two deciSiemen per meter kind of threshold for grapevines. That's something where we're, you know, we are using clean irrigation water, but some of our amendments coming in can be saltier. [00:08:10] When we have kind of a, a low and high irrigation treatment, we can evaluate the salt accumulation in the root zone. From that particular amendment, right? [00:08:19] Craig Macmillan: What about other types of fertilizer? Are there organic fertilizers or something like that that might be less of a salt contributor than let's say a traditional nitrate based fertilizer? [00:08:28] Devin Rippner: As it turns out, at least for us, we don't apply. a massive amount of nitrogen to our grapevines, so we're often applying between 20 and say 60 pounds of N per year which is not a lot compared to say corn or, tree fruit or, or hops or things like that. [00:08:45] And so we, we don't, Exactly. Expect to see a buildup of, of those salts over time. Honestly, some of the organic amendments end up being saltier than our fertilizer. [00:08:55] That's something when we do a high and low for irrigation, we will be able to look at the accumulation of, of nitrates and things like that. [00:09:02] Cause in our arid environment, you do get accumulations of nitrate, which is kind of funny. [00:09:06] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's interesting. You also mentioned the soil pH, alkalinity. What, what's going on there? How bad is it in different spots? What can you do about it? I, I'm fascinated by this because like when you look at viticulture, you have like a lot of knobs on the mixing board, right? You got a lot of sliders and, Soil , you can't slide it very well. It's like very hard to make changes to soil over time. [00:09:33] Devin Rippner: it is. [00:09:33] Craig Macmillan: very slow and very difficult. So I'm very interested in , this issue here. [00:09:39] Devin Rippner: It's funny at our site, the soil pH isn't too bad. It's about 8. Across the board, from the, from the top that so, so we've been measuring from the top of the soil down to about 90 centimeters. About three feet. We do see a pH tick up in our sub soil, but still it's, it's around the eights. [00:09:56] We actually have a lot of carbonates in our soil. There's only more organic carbon in the top six inches of our soil. And from that point on, most of our carbon is in the form of carbonates. [00:10:06] Which is kind of unique. And so once you get down to like 60 to 90 centimeters, so two to three feet in the soil, functionally, 90 percent of the soil carbon is carbon from carbonate. [00:10:16] So dealing with that in the region there's wide variation, so people that are planting into old wheat ground where they've used a lot of ammonium based fertilizers or urea, the pH can be in the fives. And then I, I mean, I've measured soil pH is up to about 9. 8 around here. So, so quite high. [00:10:35] Those soils are hard to deal with. So these are carbonate buffered systems. So to try to lower the pH, you basically have to get rid of all the carbonates. And that is not really feasible. We do see in some of the vineyards that we work in. And again, a lot of this data is preliminary. [00:10:51] I'm trying to get stuff out right now. Getting the vineyard set up has been a massive undertaking. And I've been lucky to work with a great team to, to get it done, but it has taken a lot of my time. [00:11:01] Um, but we, we do see seasonal fluctuations with irrigation. So soils might start off with a pH around eight drop over the course of the growing season into the sixes and then as they dry down for winter time. So we cut irrigation. The pH will start to rise back up as the carbonates move from the subsoil to the surface. [00:11:21] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. Interesting. Let's talk about your vineyard. If I understand correctly, you have a research vineyard there in Prosser that you are building from scratch or have built from scratch. Is that true? [00:11:30] Devin Rippner: Yes. . It is a new vineyard to study soil health building practices. We just finished our second season. And we were very lucky. Vina Matos which is a company out of Portugal. They mechanically planted it for us. [00:11:45] Scientist, so it's, it was, yeah, it was a bit of an undertaking. Even now I've gotten a lot better on a tractor than I was. And, you know, I like to run, like, I'd like to do x ray stuff. And then I'm out there on a tractor, like, yeah, doing stuff. It's a unique challenge. [00:11:59] So we do have a vineyard manager Dr. Liz Gillespie is the vineyard manager. , she honestly does most of the tracker work. I only sub in when she's down with an illness or something like that. [00:12:09] It's been a team effort for the last couple of years. [00:12:12] Craig Macmillan: What are you doing in there? You've talked about a couple of topics, but, and how big is this, this vineyard? [00:12:17] Devin Rippner: It's not that big. It's about 4. 1 acres. , [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: that's, you know, for research, that's good. [00:12:22] Devin Rippner: yeah, yeah, it is good. We functionally have a business as usual. So we call it our Washington 2021 standard. So it's kind of what growers just do. So that's spraying undervined for weed control and then just let resident vegetation pop up where it may and mow it down. [00:12:39] Most people don't spray or till , their tractor rows. They just. Kind of let it go. We don't get that much rain. You end up selecting for annual grasses it's actually a pretty good weed composition for a tractor row. So then we start building from there. [00:12:52] One of our treatments is what if you just mowed everywhere, right? The goal is to select for annual grasses everywhere over time. [00:12:59] And then we have another treatment where we're mowing everywhere. But we're applying compost for fertilization. Our other treatments get synthetic fertilizers for fertilization, and then we have our compost treatment where we're mowing. [00:13:12] Then we have an undervined cover crop, so that's like our cover crop treatment. [00:13:16] We're curious about undervine legume cover crops. So we have a short subterranean clover that , we've seated in to hopefully eventually start adding nitrogen to the system and, and hopefully we'll be able to back off on more of the synthetic fertilizers over time in that system, but we'll let the vines guide us, right? [00:13:35] Craig Macmillan: What species of clover is that? [00:13:37] Devin Rippner: I'm not sure the exact, so it would be like Dalkey. [00:13:39] it's a clover that basically has low flowers and shoots seed downward. And so , that allows it to replant itself really effectively. [00:13:47] The flowers tend to be below the foliage. So we won't have to worry about mowing them down too badly. , they stay low. And so that's why we selected that. just to try to keep the flowers low and keep foliage away from our vines. [00:14:01] Craig Macmillan: Anything else? [00:14:03] Devin Rippner: Yeah, so then we have our aspirational treatment, which is kind of a mix of the subterranean clover cover crop. And then we have compost fertilization and then kind of breaking the full factorial. We're actually changing what's in , , the tractor row. We're planting an intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:20] We started with crusted wheatgrass. It's so funny with these experiments. , we seeded in crusted wheatgrass a couple of times and just did not take it's not very effective for competing against other weeds, and it's not very good with traffic. And so now , we're seeding in intermediate wheatgrass. [00:14:35] , it is more traffic tolerant and is more weed tolerant. So we're hoping that we'll be able to outcompete all the other annual grasses and just have kind of a perennial grass cover crop. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: Is it on these courses? So is this camp is compaction less of a problem? I would think. [00:14:53] Devin Rippner: We do have some compaction. That we've seen out there. Certainly mechanical planting can cause some extra compaction. It, it takes a lot of force to, you know, rip a giant hole in the ground to drop the vines into. And so we do see some compaction from that. [00:15:06] We have taken bulk density cores from all over the vineyard. And we're hoping to see changes over time in that compaction. So we've done bulk density course from under vine and then in the tractor row. And so we're hoping that over time, these various practices will alter the bulk density, hopefully lower the bulk density in the tractor row. [00:15:27] Craig Macmillan: And then I'm assuming that you're also keeping track of costs for these things. [00:15:32] Devin Rippner: yes, we have been keeping track of costs. We are keeping track of the hourly labor , for mowing. Honestly, we've, we've purchased some undervine mowers and , we have really struggled to find a good solution for our young vines. [00:15:45] We're going to, Purchase another one soon. The biggest thing is that if you have a swing arm on it, it's got to be gentle enough that it, it'll push out of the way , with a bamboo stake in the ground. [00:15:55] And a lot of the existing swing arm mowers for orchards and vineyards it takes a lot of force to move that swing arm. [00:16:03] It's been a real challenge for us. So, so we ended up having people go out with weed eaters, which is super expensive and is actually something that some vineyards do either biodynamic vineyards in the area that they'll send people out... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34949570

261: Top 5 Marketing Tips of 2024 | Marketing Tip Monday 01/27/2025

261: Top 5 Marketing Tips of 2024 | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: If one of your resolutions is to ramp up your sustainability messaging, let the SIP Certified Marketing Tips inspire you. [00:00:07] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, these monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:26] All year long, we'll be sharing actionable tips, relevant statistics, and inspiring stories from other sustainable wine brands so that you can become fluent in sustainability and learn how to share your message. [00:00:38] There are two ways to get the marketing tips. Number one is to keep listening here to the Sustainable Wine Growing Podcast. The second is to get our monthly newsletter. Simply go to sipcertified. org and click stay up to date in the upper right hand corner. [00:00:54] Each article comes with links and visuals so that you can really embrace the marketing tip. [00:00:58] Now, if you're wondering what the hottest tips of 2024 were, we combined stats from our podcast downloads and webpage visits to bring you this list of the top five. [00:01:09] number five is episode 230, sustainable and organic. What is the difference? If you've ever asked this same question, this article will show that there's a lot of overlap between the two programs. The beauty of sustainability is that it addresses all aspects of. The wine growing business from soil health to social equity. [00:01:29] Number four is episode 228, Viticulture with a Vision, Oso Libre's Dedication to Social Responsibility. Oso Libre's founders, Chris and Linda Behr, started their Pour Vita Foundation in 2011 support causes that are near and dear to their hearts. By using funding streams for multiple winery activities, Oso Libre and their guests give back to these deserving causes too. [00:01:52] In fact, last year they supported our Juan Navarez Memorial Scholarship, a program that helps children of vineyard and winery workers pay for higher education through one of their Angus events. You can read their short story on our website and also look for the 2025 issue of Grape and Wine magazine. titled Blending Wine and Philanthropy at Oso Libre, The Social Impact of Sustainable Wine. And here's another plug for checking out these articles on our website, sipcertified. org, so that you can link back to each of those stories. Number three is episode 236, Safely Keeping Birds at Bay, Presqu'ile Vineyard's Sustainable Story. [00:02:31] Birds like finches and starlings are common vineyard pests. They damage fruit canopies and will even create nests in the vines. To protect their crop, vineyards typically use bird netting. While effective, netting comes with unsustainable downsides. They break down in the sun, installation and removal, requires a lot of labor, and they create waste over time, as nets must be replaced every few years. [00:02:55] Presqu'ile knew there was a more sustainable way to handle their unwelcomed feathered visitors. So they're utilizing a new technology, a laser. [00:03:03] Listen into this episode, or go to the show notes to find a link to read the article. [00:03:07] Number two is episode 220, how to Talk Sip With Six Wine Consumer Segments. Every wine enthusiast has different preferences, behaviors, and levels of investment in their pursuit of great wine. [00:03:20] Wine Intelligence identified six distinct consumer segments in the U. S. market. We saw this article and wondered, how can we tailor a message of sustainability to align with these differences? [00:03:30] Learn how to tailor your own message when you read or listen in to this short episode. [00:03:35] And the number one. Most popular marketing tip of 2024 was episode 240, stacking energy savings at Niner Wine Estates. Electricity use in the winery accounts for a large proportion of the end product's energy demand from keeping buildings and tanks at a proper temperature to powering equipment and lighting. Energy use in the winery adds up quickly. [00:03:58] Niner Wine Estates anticipated and adapted to increased demand and cost. Their efforts have even earned the business two symbols of sustainability achievement, SIP certified and LEED certified silver level. want to know how they did it, out the show notes to read their sustainable story or look for episode [00:04:17] If you are a listener on California's Central Coast, you do not want to miss Reciprocal February 2025. This month long event connects wine enthusiasts like you with sustainably minded brands through reciprocal club tastings all month long. [00:04:33] If you are a member of a participating tasting room, you will receive two complimentary tastings at any other participating location. This is a great opportunity. to try new wines and learn how they practice sustainability. You can find a full list at sipcertified. org forward slash reciprocal 2025. [00:04:54] Until next time, this is Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34942510

260: AI Finds New Grape Growing Regions as Climate Changes 01/16/2025

260: AI Finds New Grape Growing Regions as Climate Changes In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any will grow there at all. Joel Harms, Ph.D. student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow pinot noire in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. The project mapped 1,300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a crucial role in identifying the winegrowing regions of tomorrow. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the face of climate uncertainty, growers wonder which grape varieties will flourish in their regions in the future, or if any, will grow there at all. [00:00:13] Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director. [00:00:23] In today's podcast, Craig McMillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery. Speaks with Joel Harms, PhD student in the Department of Bioresource Engineering at McGill University in Australia. [00:00:42] Joel is using artificial intelligence to simulate the potential to grow Pinot Noir in different regions of the world that are currently considered too cool. [00:00:52] The project mapped 1, 300 varieties to 16 different points of climate data. including temperature, precipitation, and growing degree days. The findings could play a critical role in identifying the wine growing regions of tomorrow. [00:01:07] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry but don't know where to start? Become a member of the Vineyard Team. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community today. Now let's listen in. [00:01:34] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Joel Harms. He's a PhD student in the Department of Bioresources Engineering at McGill University. And today we're going to talk about mapping global future potential for Pinot Noir cultivation under climate uncertainty using generative AI. [00:01:51] Bye. Bye. This is a really interesting topic. I came across an abstract from a recent ASEV meeting and I was like, I just have to know more about this. This just sounds too interesting. But welcome to the podcast, Joel. [00:02:04] Joel Harms: Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me. [00:02:06] Craig Macmillan: What got you interested in this topic in terms of this wine grape region? Stuff. [00:02:12] Joel Harms: I think it was more about I wanted to build models that are useful, I guess, broadly useful in vineyard management and like establishing new vineyards and like kind of covering some of the base problems. Initially, my thought was, how can we. see which grape varieties are alike. [00:02:32] How can we like make a representation of them in like a latent space. But then I found out , if I do that, that's, you know, somewhat useful, but if I take that just a step further, I could just connect it with climate data already. And then we would have a model that could, be used for prediction and it would be so I guess. How do I say like broad or general enough so that you could apply it in any environment. So like any climate can be used to predict any grape suitability matrix, which is quite nice. And so then I thought, no, let's do it. Let's try that. [00:03:11] Craig Macmillan: So your colleagues and yourself did some simulations, as we just mentioned specifically around Pinot Noir and the potential to grow it in different parts of the world that currently are considered too cool. Tell us exactly how you went about this. [00:03:25] Joel Harms: The abstract is kind of a case study on one application of, These models that we built. So we built very general grape variety recommender systems based on climate. And so we wanted to show a cool application globally. This can be applied to find regions that will be too hot in the future. [00:03:43] So we built the AI models first starting from looking at where grapes are grown and tying that together with what climate is there regionally. Unfortunately, you know, we can't use like very precise climate data because we don't have the exact location of each grape variety in each region. [00:04:02] Craig Macmillan: hmm. Yep. [00:04:03] Joel Harms: Yeah. So therefore, we use larger climate data. So like at 50 kilometer resolution, which is still helpful to, I think, gather overall trends, not so much, you know, to plan an individual vineyard probably, but just to see like in which areas maybe there would be. in the future interesting vineyard sites. [00:04:23] Just like kind of as like a pre guidance sort of model. And then we, tested it. We tried to validate this model and then we presented a first case study with Pinot Noir because we were presenting in Oregon at the ASEV conference. So I figured, you know, might as well do Pinot Noir if we're already in Oregon. [00:04:43] Craig Macmillan: Can you explain to me the artificial intelligence piece of this? I mean, you hear about it and you know, kind of what different types of AI do. I don't think a lot of people realize that, you know, that's a very general concept and people have designed particular tools for particular reasons. [00:05:01] So, in this case, what exactly was the AI component? What's inside the box, basically? How does it work? [00:05:07] Joel Harms: First off, I guess to explain for listeners , cause AI does get thrown around a lot and it's hard to know what that actually means. So when we're talking about AI, it's usually we're tying some sort of input data to some sort of output data. And we're teaching a very complicated mathematical function to map one to the other. [00:05:25] So like kind of a correlation. But it's not a simple correlation. That's why we need these models and that's why they're pretty fancy. [00:05:31] So in our case, we're using an AI that was inspired from the community of medical science, where similar models were used to connect, for example, the ECG measurements of a heart with like scans of the heart. [00:05:50] And then Trying to tie both of those datas together and to reconstruct them again to see if, like, you could find correlations between those and maybe if one of them is missing, you could, , predict what it would look like. And so, since this is a very similar problem, , and we have similar input data in the sense of, we have grapes, which grapes are grown where, and we have what is the climate there, roughly. [00:06:13] So we can tie that together and try to connect both of those types of data and then get an output of both of those types of data so that we can go from grapes to climate and climate to grapes in the same model. So we have these , you could say like four models. that are tied together at the center. So input grapes, input climate, then in the center where they get tied together and then output grapes, output climate. And so we train it to, reconstruct it from this combined space where we like, Scrunch it down, which is what the autoencoder does. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: So if, if I understand correctly, what we're talking about is , we know that we have the data and we know where wine grapes are grown, different types for different climates. Then we have the climate data in terms of how things may change over time. And then we're creating a prediction of. How those climates change, and then translate that into what we already know about wine grapes. [00:07:09] Joel Harms: Sort of. Yeah. But in our model for training, we just use the existing ones. So historical climate data and historical grape variety data. Once we have that model trained, we just apply it for new climates that come from like other climate models. So we don't do the climate modeling ourselves, but we extract that information and feed that into it and get the grape varieties output. [00:07:31] Craig Macmillan: So you look specifically, at least reported on areas that currently are considered too cold for growing a high quality pinot noir or growing wine grapes in general. What did you find out? What Parts of the world might be the new leading Pinot Noir regions. [00:07:46] Joel Harms: . So that depends a little bit on the exact scenario and how much the climate is supposed to warm. We have like two scenarios is what we looked at. We looked at a 8. 5 scenario and a 2. 6 scenario and going by the 8. 5 scenario, some of the regions that are improving are for example, Western China. And also Southern California, actually, and Quebec, , like Southern California is in Santa Barbara. I guess that's technically Central Coast, [00:08:17] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, well, that's interesting There's a lot of Pinot Noir in Santa Barbara County in the in the coastal zones Any other regions that popped up? [00:08:26] Joel Harms: Yeah, a lot of Australia seems to be doing better and like Northern France, [00:08:31] Craig Macmillan: Yeah pushing it to the north. Did England pop up? [00:08:35] Joel Harms: England, yes, but England seems to like stay the same in compared to historical. So not like as if it's improving, at least like from this, like rough map that we made. What we want to do is do it a bit more finely. The, this prediction, because we currently just used regions where wine is already grown, but then try to like interpolate just for calculation efficiency. Outward. So like our maps are created not only by the model itself, because that would be too calculation intensive. So for the, for the sake of simplicity, we did it like this, but we're still writing the final paper. So, you know, don't invest just yet, wait a little bit and then, [00:09:17] Craig Macmillan: I was gonna bring that up. Where should I put my money? [00:09:19] Joel Harms: Exactly. So don't do that yet. Wait for the final paper and then we will double check everything over. Oh yeah. Arkansas was one that was improving too. Very interestingly. Yeah. [00:09:28] Craig Macmillan: I was kind of surprised because having talked to guests, many guests from, you know, New York, from Texas, from people who consult in the Southwest Northern California, which can get quite warm. What we've talked about is the question of it getting too hot to grow quality wine grapes. [00:09:49] You know, wine grapes will grow to tolerate quite high temperatures. So, for instance, the San Joaquin Valley in California, produces a lot of wine grapes. They're not considered to be very high quality compared to coastal zones. So the vines do great and produce good crops and all of that. So there's concern that areas that have been kind of in the sweet spot, kind of in the, we call it the Goldilocks phenomenon where climate, soil, time, everything just all kind of fits together. [00:10:12] It sounds like this idea would be applicable to predicting what areas might become too warm for high quality wine [00:10:19] Joel Harms: Yes. Yes. It's definitely the case. Yes. And in our maps. You can see both at the same time because it sees like relative change, positive, relative change to, to negative. Some areas that look like they're not going to do so well in the future or less good in the future, even though they're like really good right now is like Oregon, unfortunately. [00:10:39] And the Azores or Northern Spain, even in Eastern Europe, a lot of areas. Seem to be warming up like in Romania at the coast. Not necessarily just the warming up part, but also because we consider 16 different climate variables, it could be the warming up part, but it could also be, you know, like the precipitation changing things like that, you know. [00:10:59] Craig Macmillan: You said 16 variables, we talked, you got temperature, you got precipitation, what, what are some of the others? [00:11:04] Joel Harms: Yeah, we got the growing degree days, the winter index, we got the Huggins index, we have radiation. Diurnal temperature range, the annual average temperature, for the precipitation, we have it like a three different scales, in the harvest month over the growing season and also throughout the whole year same for the temperature. And then we have the, growing indexes [00:11:26] Craig Macmillan: do you have plans to do this kind of thing again? Or publish additional papers from the work you've already done, because I think, it sounds like you've got a lot of interesting findings, [00:11:35] Joel Harms: Oh yeah. Yeah. The results only came in like right before the conference. We're still analyzing everything, writing everything. So the first thing that's coming up is a paper just on , how did we build the model and like all the validations and does it make sense with like expert classifications of how experts classify suitability for grapevines and things like that in the past to see if. That lines up as it should yeah, and then after that we'll publish some of these predictions and what we can learn from these and more detailed than how we did it right now where, most of it's like interpolated because we couldn't predict for every location, so like we predicted for some locations and interpolated. Just for computational efficiency, I guess, but you know, we're, we're getting there. Unfortunately, academia is quite you know, a slow profession. takes a lot of time. [00:12:24] Craig Macmillan: Yes, yes it does. And then getting it published takes a lot of time with reviews and whatnot. And so I just want to put a time stamp on this. This is being recorded in October of 2024. So, Give it some months, at least several, several, several, several. But it's exciting. This stuff's coming out. It'll be in, be in the literature. That's really, really great. [00:12:43] Joel Harms: And soon what we're trying to do is also release like a tool or something that, you know, where people can input their location and we can, our climate data, like call out the climate data and see what, what some of the predictions would be. Yeah. [00:12:57] Craig Macmillan: Oh, that's neat. [00:12:59] Joel Harms: I might've done that for Niner Vineyards just now to see, to see what, what's a suitable there, but only the current ones. [00:13:08] So I mean, it's kind of is exactly what you're growing. [00:13:10] Craig Macmillan: Funny. You should mention that. There is a a website called CalAdapt that allows you to put in some ranges and some variables specific to your location, you put your location in, and then there's a number of different models that you can run. Some are very conservative, some are not in terms of what the predictions are for climate change globally. [00:13:31] And then gives you a nice report on what the average temperature change might be in degrees Fahrenheit or Celsius also takes a stab at precipitation, although I talked to somebody who was connected to that and they said the precipitation is always kind of questionable. And also looks at things like heat waves, how many heat waves days over 100 or days over 95, you might expect because those can be quite fluctuating. [00:13:55] damaging. Even, even though vines can tolerate heat, if they're not acclimated, getting these big stretches of over a hundred, for instance, can be kind of stressful. I did that and kind of looked at it myself and thought, huh, I wonder if we had better, more, um, detailed information, what that might look like. [00:14:12] Another tool that was mentioned that you used was a deep coupled auto incoder networks. What are those? [00:14:18] Joel Harms: So that was what I described earlier, like these component models , where we have a. The encoder and decoder part, the input part is the , encoder and the output part is the decoder. And in the middle of these we have a latent space and then the coupled part means that we're having multiple of these that share their latent space. [00:14:38] So that's , where we're tying them together so that we can input either climate or grapes and get as outputs either climates or grapes. So it's like very, very flexible in that way and so I quite like that. And it turns out it does better than even some more traditional approaches where you just feed in climate and get out grapes like from a neural network or something like that. [00:14:59] Just like a neural network, because we have technically like four neural networks and all of them have three layers. So that's three layers or more. And so that's what makes them deep. [00:15:08] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:15:09] Is this your primary work as a PhD student? [00:15:13] Joel Harms: Well, as a PhD student, I'm still working on modeling. But not so much with grapevines, unfortunately. I'm looking at still climate models. How can we adapt for example, now we're looking more at the Caribbean. There's flooding issues. Particularly in Guyana. And so we're trying to, you know, help maybe the government to plan land use better in order to avoid, you know, critical areas being flooded, agricultural land being flooded and these type of things. [00:15:41] So it's more looking at flooding modeling, there's definitely some overlap in that sort of work, it's definitely still like in the area of using data science to help decision making which is the overall theme of this work. [00:15:55] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, and that was something that also came up in my little mini project was the potential for massive storms and also the potential for drought. Which, wasn't part of your work at this stage. Is that something that you would be able to find a way of including in your modeling that might give you some idea of how things might change? [00:16:15] And it's specifically what I'm thinking of is Cyclone Gabriel, I believe it was called, Gabriella just devastated parts of New Zealand. And raised a lot of concern about how, you know, when we were in these coastal zones, we go, Oh, yes, it's mild. It's great. But we're right near the ocean. [00:16:33] Right. And in October between 24, we've seen a very active hurricane season in the Caribbean and on the East coast and the Gulf. Do you think there's potential for this kind of thing to give us more of a heads up about what might be coming our way in terms of massive storm events? Cause that might affect how and what I do. [00:16:52] Joel Harms: I guess this wouldn't depend really on the grape variety itself. That would be more like a citing issue, right? Like where do you plant? [00:16:58] That's what we're looking at now with the like flooding mapping if there is a storm, where does the water collect? Which roads are cut off? Or, I mean, I guess in the case of vineyards, you could look at like, what would be the likely damage would there be now saltwater maybe even if you're depending on where you are. That's definitely something to look at. [00:17:17] All you need is sufficient, like past data points. So you can calibrate your models and then. You know, look at different future scenarios and what will be important to for the future is to look at what's kind of the certainty of these predictions, right? Like, what are your error margins? What's your confidence interval? [00:17:33] Because that might drastically alter your decisions. If it says, oh, it's probably not going to be too bad,... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34808585

259: Winegrape Market Trends of 2024 01/02/2025

259: Winegrape Market Trends of 2024 In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to demand. At the time of this recording in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Audra Cooper Director of Grape Brokerage and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker at Turrentine Brokerage discuss the challenges ag faces from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions to inflation. To remain viable, they stress the importance of farming a quality product that can be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: In the wine industry, it is difficult to plant to consumer demand. At the time of this recording, in December 2024, the industry finds itself in a state of oversupply. Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. [00:00:23] I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director at Vineyard Team. And in today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with longtime SIP certified Vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Audra Cooper, Director of Grape Brokerage, and Eddie Urman, Central Coast Grape Broker. At Turrentine Brokerage, [00:00:45] They discuss the challenges ag faced in 2024 from a lighter crop to regulatory restrictions, to inflation, to remain viable. They stress the importance of farming a quality product that could be made into good wine and sold profitably to continue to support all aspects of the industry. [00:01:04] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start? Become a Vineyard Team member. Get access to the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyardteam.org To become a member today. [00:01:25] Now let's listen in. [00:01:31] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Audra Cooper and Eddie Urman. Audra is director of grape brokerage with Turrentine brokerage. And Eddie is a grape broker for the central coast, also with Turrentine. Thanks for being on the podcast. [00:01:42] Audra Cooper: Thank you for having us. We're excited. [00:01:44] Eddie Urman: yeah, thanks for having us, Craig. [00:01:46] Craig Macmillan: What exactly is a wine and grape brokerage? [00:01:49] Audra Cooper: It's a really fancy term for matchmaking and finding homes for supply. Whether that's through growers having fruit available and needing to sell in a specific year or finding multi year contracts, or that's bulk wine that has been made in excess or maybe a call for a winery needing to find a way of A pressure release valve. [00:02:11] Craig Macmillan: And so you match buyers with sellers, basically. [00:02:13] Audra Cooper: Exactly. [00:02:14] Craig Macmillan: On both sides of the fence. Both the wine and the grape side. Do you have specialists for the grape side? Specialists for the wine side? [00:02:21] Audra Cooper: We do. , you're talking to our newest hire on the grape side, Eddie, who's going to be focused on the Central Coast. We also have Mike Needham in the Central Valley on grapes. Christian Clare in the North Coast specializing in Napa, Sonoma, Lake, and Mendocino on grapes. And then we have three bulk wine brokers, Mark Cuneo, William Goebel, and Steve Robertson. [00:02:40] Craig Macmillan: Your world is very dependent on the marketplace. Obviously, that's what you do. You're brokers. The simple model of quote unquote the market. I think for most people is that you have a consumer who buys wine, wineries make wine, and they sell it to those people who buy it. Vineyards grow grapes up to wineries. [00:02:57] So if there's more demand from consumers, that means there's , more grapes in demand, there's more wine in demand, and there should be higher prices. Or the opposite. That's probably really oversimplified given the unique nature of the wine industry, because , it's not a widget, you know, I don't make a widget, sell it, then go, Ooh, I can make more widgets. [00:03:16] So because of the nature of the business things are on much larger timeframes, right? Audra, [00:03:23] Audra Cooper: They are. I mean, agriculture by nature is, a little bit more of a, what we call an on ramp and off ramp. There's kind of that distance from the time that something is needed versus the time it can be produced. And in the wine industry, it's really difficult to plant to demand. And oftentimes we miss the boat regards to meeting demand with our current supply needs. [00:03:44] So it's really difficult to not only predict, but figure out where consumption is going. And you talked about kind of the simplicity of it and it is true. You can kind of look at the macro market in a very simplistic way, but the reality is in particularly with California, it's very segmented. From value tier up to premium to ultra premium to luxury, and all of those different tiers have different timelines, and some of them converge at moments, depending upon whether there were oversupplied or undersupplied, . So yeah, it can get really complicated and very, very multifaceted. [00:04:18] Craig Macmillan: What's your comment on that, Eddie? [00:04:21] Eddie Urman: Well, I think Audra summed it up pretty well, but yeah, it's a very complex integration of all these things, and planting grapes oftentimes, like Audra said, we tend to overdo it. And we then tend to overdo pushing them out. And it's just kind of a cyclical thing through history where we go from undersupply to oversupply. And right now we're obviously in a pretty large state of oversupply. [00:04:44] Craig Macmillan: Over supply in terms of grapes? [00:04:46] Eddie Urman: Correct [00:04:47] Audra Cooper: and bulk wine. [00:04:48] Craig Macmillan: And bulk wine [00:04:49] what are the kinds of things that are going to lead to a market correction there? Are people going to have to pull out vines? Are they going to have to say, Well, I was planning to sell this wine for 20 bucks a gallon, now I'm going to sell it for 10. [00:05:00] What are some of the dynamics that are going to happen during this time? [00:05:04] Eddie Urman: Well, I think the third rung is consumption, right? Unfortunately the trend over the last two years is consumption is going down in general. And we don't see any signs of it at this time. That's showing it's necessarily going up. We're optimistic and hopeful that it will. And we look forward to seeing the data after the holiday season, but that rung is going to be really important. [00:05:25] The other part is still supply. So pushing vineyards. And we are seeing a lot of people push vineyards. There's no clear number yet of what's been pushed or what will be pushed, but it does seem like there's a lot of parties that will be either ceasing to farm or will be removing vineyards. [00:05:41] Craig Macmillan: This is for either of you to pick up. Are there particular segments where we're seeing this more than in others? Premium versus luxury example. [00:05:48] Audra Cooper: The removal seemed to be really heavily weighted towards the Valley specifically, more of the value tier, because that's our largest volume by far. So we see a lot of removals, particularly in the South Valley that really started to occur even before we felt really oversupplied, and then it started to move north from there, pushed into the Central Coast and even to some degree the North Coast as well. [00:06:10] So you're seeing removals throughout the state of California, and you could even argue that you've seen removals in the Pacific Northwest as well, there's been an oversupply position there, particularly in Washington, and the only two areas that we don't see that dynamic is perhaps Texas to a degree, as well as Oregon. [00:06:27] But there again, they're starting to feel oversupplied as well. They're kind of on the back end of this [00:06:31] the Central Valley is the furthest ahead. And so we may actually see a little bit of a slowdown in removals. They're coming up after the 26th vintage. However, it remains to be seen. I mean, water , constrictions and regulations are going to play a huge factor in that as well, as it will be in the central coast in the near future. [00:06:48] Craig Macmillan: Are there alternate or other crops that may go in, into place instead of grapes? [00:06:53] Audra Cooper: Unfortunately, right now, there's not a good answer for that. In the past, you'd say yes. And there were several alternative crops, particularly in the valley and the central coast, especially when you think of Santa Barbara and Monterey County. Paso Robles is in a little bit of a different position without, you know, a true crop to turn over to. But all of agriculture in California is struggling and has been really affected in the last 24 months, [00:07:16] Craig Macmillan: why the last 24 months, do you think? [00:07:18] Audra Cooper: you know, that's a good question. Part of it is kind of weather patterns in regards to some larger crops and oversupply consumers have certainly had some. Tighter budgets in a lot of respects to the economy. Inflation has played a huge role in that. When we talk about the wine industry, the wine industry is not a necessity as far as the goods. There is certainly a movement towards, you know, what they call no amount of alcohol is healthy for any individual of drinking age. So that certainly has affected our industry, but it's also affected other crops as well and other, other beverages, specifically alcohol. [00:07:53] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, in the Central Coast, what, what have you been seeing? [00:07:56] Eddie Urman: As far as vendor removals or as [00:07:57] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, as far as vineyard removals, things like that. [00:08:01] Eddie Urman: I mean, there are a large number of vineyards that are being pushed out. It's substantial both in Monterey County in Paso Robles, there's parties we're talking to that are also talking about pushing. This upcoming year and not replanting for a year or two. Some are potentially considering alternate other options where they can. But to segue on that, unfortunately it is exceedingly difficult right now to go to any other crop. Cause none of them are necessarily performing super well. [00:08:28] Craig Macmillan: Right. One thing that I'm kind of surprised by based on what you said, Audra, was that we're having the most removal in that value segment where we have the most supply. It would seem to me that if demand out there in the marketplace and folks don't have a lot of money, it seems like there'd be more demand for those value products. [00:08:48] Like, I would think that the contraction would be at the higher level, the expensive level, as opposed to the lower price level. Is there a mechanism there that I'm missing? [00:08:56] Audra Cooper: I think there's not necessarily a mechanism per se. I think there's a layer of complication there that doesn't make it a simple apples to apples position in regards to where consumers are spending their money. A lot of consumers who are brought by, you know, ultra premium to luxury, they may have not been as affected in a relative sense by the economy and inflation is someone who is perhaps playing in more of that value tier. [00:09:21] Okay. Whether it was bag in a box, larger liter, whatever it may have been, you know, that tier that's 12.99 and below had already started to see some impacts during pre immunization. And that was from 2012 until about 2020. And then it's just been really wonky since 2020 in our industry and really difficult to read the tea leaves and as far as where things were going. And I think a lot of the new plantings that we did, In 2011 through 2016 really came online in the central valley as well. So it just, it was almost a perfect storm, unfortunately, for the value tier. But that's not to say that these other tiers haven't been impacted as well, just to a lesser degree. [00:10:01] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly. Is this also true on the bulk wine side, Audra? [00:10:04] Audra Cooper: Oh, certainly. I think anytime that you look at our industry, the bulk wine market actually leads the trend in regards to the direction we're going. So anytime we start to see multiple vintages, Or one vintage really start to increase in volume and availability in all likelihood. We're about 12 months, maybe eight behind the market with grapes. [00:10:25] So bulk will start to kind of slow down, stack up on inventory. Prices will start to drop. We'll still be doing just fine on grapes. We'll get multi year contracts. Prices are at least sustainable, if not profitable. And then suddenly we'll start to see the same trend on grapes. [00:10:39] Craig Macmillan: How many, or, and Eddie might be able to answer this for the Central Coast. How many folks on the grape side are having wines made from their grapes? Like under contract strictly for bulk. I've got a hundred tons of Sauvignon Blanc unsold. That's a lot, but unsold. I'm going to go ahead and take my chances on the bulk market. [00:11:00] Eddie Urman: you're saying Specking it. [00:11:01] So yeah, crushing it and specking it on the bulk market. Surely there are parties that did that, but I would say there is definitely a lot less parties that did that this year. In 2024 specifically. multiple reasons. One, specifically in Paso Robles, the crop was quite light which increased some late demand for some Cabernet specifically. [00:11:22] Sauvignon Blanc was one of the other varieties that was , in demand because of how light it was. Monterey in Santa Barbara County, it seems like there were parties that decided to just leave grapes on the vine. even in internal vineyards for companies that produce their own wine rather than turn it into bulk. And Audra, please add anything if you feel. [00:11:43] Audra Cooper: I think from a specific standpoint, you know, that was a great way of answering that. I think one of the things to keep in mind is I, I know that we should definitely be mindful of educating and being informative in a general sense, right? The rule of thumb when you're a grape grower and you're trying to sell fruit is if it is difficult to sell as grapes, It will typically be exponentially more difficult to sell as bulk wine. [00:12:07] And so taking that position as a way of bringing profit back , to your vineyard, nine times out of 10 is not going to work out. And that one time is technically a lightning strike and it's extraordinarily difficult to predict that [00:12:20] Craig Macmillan: So not a lot of folks wouldn't be wise to do that for a lot of folks. [00:12:23] Audra Cooper: generally. No, I mean, I think most growers, particularly independent growers do not have the wherewithal or the risk adversity to be able to play the bulk market in any significant way. Okay. Mm [00:12:37] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's talk about wineries playing the bulk market. I've got extra stuff. Now, if it's all internal, if I'm growing my own grapes and turning them into my products, it sounds like I would want to maybe leave things on the vine, or just simply not put my investment into producing those wines. Where do bulk wines come from if they're not coming from spec grower spec operations, if they're coming from wineries in particular? [00:13:01] Things that are cut out for quality, things that are cut out for volume [00:13:04] Audra Cooper: Yeah, a multitude of reasons. I mean, the wineries typically use the bulk wine market as what I had alluded to earlier, which is a pressure release valve, right? When they are short or they are long, they're looking to the bulk market, whether that's to buy or sell. Now, that's certainly not every single winery that does that. Particularly some boutique operations, or even a lot of the DTCs would prefer not to play on the bulk wine market, but at times dabble in it. [00:13:27] Another reason to go to the bulk wine market as a buyer is to start a program. If you've gotten, you know, interest from a retailer, for example, for, you know, a control label that's an easy way to research whether or not it is an economic profitable project for your winery, as well as whether or not you can actually find the varietal. And the volume needed for that project. [00:13:49] So there is a multitude of reasons for the bulk wine market to essentially exist and be utilized. But the traditional model is to sell excess on the bulk wine market to someone else who actually needs it. The challenge right now is, we hit about 29 million gallons of actively listed bulk wine for California back in April or June, and that number really didn't decrease until recently. It's the highest inventory that we'd ever seen going into harvest, and when we have those dynamics, that bulk wine market's utilization becomes a little bit, shall I say, sludgy, in the sense of, Most everyone's trying to sell they're not trying to buy. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: Eddie, do you have anything to add? [00:14:30] Eddie Urman: no, I think Audra summed it up pretty good. I mean, you asked, how does it end up on the bulk market? I don't think at this point, there's a ton of players that are planning to put it on the bulk market per Audra's point, but wineries are in their best faith trying to secure the amount of fruit they need to then make wine. That they have a home for IE sale, you know, some sort of sales, but as we've seen contraction in sales, unfortunately for some parties, they're forced to make decisions to put it on the bulk market. That'd be correct. Audra. [00:14:59] Audra Cooper: be a correct way of saying it. And also to have to remember, we're essentially making wine for the future when we're harvesting fruit, right and putting it in tank. And so it's really difficult to predict exactly how much 2024 someone's actually going to be able to put out on the shelf and ship. So I think that's the other element to is, by their model , what they purchased and what they received now, of course, 24 is going to be a poor example of that with how light the crop was, but in general, they're buying for what they predict to be their demand and needs [00:15:30] and in all reality, when it's bottled. Packaged and shipped out, those numbers may look dramatically different. Hence the reason why it's going to end up on the bulk market. If it in fact is already in excess. There are some negotiants that may actually in some years where they think the market's pretty good and they can be profitable, we'll go out and spec, but that kind of business model is few and far between compared to say 15 years ago, [00:15:54] Craig Macmillan: Interesting and that kind of leads us to where we are now. You've already touched on it a little bit. We just finished, this is November of 2024, we're just wrapping up the harvest in California. Obviously it's a crystal ball thing, but basically, at the moment, how are we looking? It sounds like we had a light harvest. I'm going to ask you about that. A light harvest. And it sounds like that was pretty much true throughout the coast of California. Is that right? [00:16:20] Audra Cooper: generally, yes, there were regions and AVAs that did better than others. For example, parts of the North Coast with the exception of Sonoma and Napa, so Mendocino Lake and Sassoon, they were not as light as, say, Paso Robles on Paso Robles Cabernet or Sauvignon Blanc, but they were still below expectations in most cases. There's just certain areas that were... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34486915

257: 5 Ways Certification Makes Brands the SIP | Marketing Tip Monday 12/23/2024

257: 5 Ways Certification Makes Brands the SIP | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] As 2024 comes to a close, we want to recognize five ways certification made our brands the SIP this year. And even if you aren't SIP certified, there's lots of great ideas in this marketing tip that can help you promote your brand. [00:00:17] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:36] Now let's get into the five ways. [00:00:38] Number one was providing regulatory relief for 161 vineyards. 2024 was the first year that growers on California's central coast had to submit total nitrogen applied reports to their regional water board. These growers must report how much water, compost, and fertilizer was applied to their crop, as well as the nitrogen content from each of these sources. Because SIP certified vineyards are already submitting this data to the program, we partnered with Preservation Inc. to complete and submit these reports on their behalf, saving them countless hours of administrative work. And Central Coast growers can participate again in 2025. [00:01:18] Number two, six stories were released in Grape and Wine magazine. Each one of this year's issues told a unique story about how a SIP certified member practices sustainability. Their stories help spread awareness of what it takes to make sustainable wine. [00:01:33] Number three is reciprocal club tastings for nearly 30 brands. In February, nearly 30 brands across four California counties And Michigan State enjoyed Reciprocal Club tastings during Reciprocal February 2024. This month long event helps connect tasting rooms with other like minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. It's a great way to boost tasting room traffic during a historically slow month. And there are even more participants already signed up for Reciprocal February 2025. [00:02:07] Number four is visibility on over 2. 7 million bottles. 20 wine brands help increase awareness of SIP Certified by putting the logo on their bottle. Having information about sustainability on your packaging shows customers that the wine was made with care for the people and the planet. That's it. Did you know that any wine made with at least 85 percent SIP certified fruit, whether estate or purchased, can apply to put the logo on their bottle? Make sure you check out our show notes to learn more. [00:02:35] And number five, we completed nine in person sustainability trainings. We talked with hospitality teams about sustainability in the wine industry, And identified ways that they uniquely practice sustainability at their own operation so that they can feel more confident talking about their certification with customers. [00:02:53] Now, if you want to learn more about any of these five highlights from 2024, make sure you check out the show notes. There's tons of links and contacts to help you get started telling your own sustainable story. Until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Resources: 5 Ways Certification Makes Brands the SIP Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34349935

257: Understanding Winery Visitors – Increase Sales with your Messaging 12/19/2024

257: Understanding Winery Visitors – Increase Sales with your Messaging Since the year 2000, wineries in the United States have grown from 2,000 to nearly 12,000. How can a brand stand out in the market? Dan McCole, Associate Professor in the Department of Community Sustainability at Michigan State University researches the impact of tourism on communities. He studied what makes brands that make the majority of their sales in the tasting room successful in new wine regions including Texas, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Dan shares tips on how to sell new hybrid varieties, what messaging has the biggest impact on sales, and what customers are really coming to the tasting room for (it's not wine!). Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Since the year 2000, wineries in the United States have grown from 2000 to nearly 12, 000. How can a brand stand out in the market? Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with the Vineyard Team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic, Executive Director, Since 1994, Vineyard Team has brought you the latest science based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both infield and online education so that you can grow your business. [00:00:37] Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:41] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, Critical Resource Manager at Niner Wine Estates, with a longtime SIP certified vineyard and the first ever SIP certified winery, speaks with Dan McCole, Associate Professor in the Department of Community Sustainability at Michigan State University. [00:01:00] Dan researches the impact of tourism on communities. He studied what makes brands that make the majority of their sales in the tasting room successful in new wine regions, including Texas, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. [00:01:15] Dan shares tips on how to sell new hybrid varieties. What messaging has the biggest impact on sales and what customers are really coming to the tasting room for hint It's not wine [00:01:28] want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start become a vineyard team member Get access to the latest science based practices experts growers and wine industry tools through both infield and online Education so that you can grow your business Visit vineyardteam. org and choose grower or business to join the community today. Now let's listen in. [00:01:52] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Dan McCole. He is an associate professor in the department of community sustainability at Michigan state university. And today we're going to talk about some lesser known smaller wine regions and the challenges of marketing hybrid wine grape varieties to customers and some successes. [00:02:08] So thanks for being on the podcast, Dan. [00:02:10] Dan McCole: I'm happy to be here, Craig. [00:02:12] Craig Macmillan: Before we, we get talking about wine in particular I'd like to kind of get oriented in your larger focus. You've done a lot of work in the world of natural resources and ag based tourism contributing to community sustainability. And I think that that's a really interesting topic just in general. [00:02:28] Can you tell me a little bit about your work just in the broad scheme and kind of what kinds of things you're interested in [00:02:33] Dan McCole: Yeah, sure. It's funny, I actually got into wine. I'm really a tourism scholar. And shortly after I arrived at Michigan State University, I was pulled into a project, that was looking at specifically at tourism. It was part of a larger project that looked at cold hardy wine varieties. So cold hardy hybrids. [00:02:55] And there was a team of viticulturalists and enologists and economists. And I was sort of brought in there, for the business portion of the team specifically looking at tourism, but that also some consumer behavior questions that we had on that as part of that project. My focus within tourism is the impact of tourism on communities specifically. [00:03:15] I'm not a hospitality guy. I look at the impact of tourism on communities. And so, you know, especially in areas like where I live in Michigan the industrial Midwest where, you know, the economy is shifting a bit. You have these places that sort of former manufacturing areas, former extraction areas for like lumber and coal and things like that. [00:03:36] They're looking to new industries and tourism is a big part of it. And so we look at all the impacts on those communities, both positive and negative. We look at economic impacts, sociocultural impacts and environmental impacts. [00:03:47] Craig Macmillan: it's exciting to see the growth in wine industries throughout the United States. I think that it's fascinating and it's only going to continue. In my opinion, I think we're going to see more of this, but again, then you're selling wines that are not commonly known. You're using the Frontenac one example. Marquette in particular was a variety that you had done some special work on. Tell me a little bit about what you did around that. [00:04:12] Dan McCole: Just to echo what you're saying. First of all, about the growth in, in the number of wineries is crazy. In the year 2000, I think the U S had 2000 wineries. Now we're up to almost 12,000. That's just crazy growth. So it's not only interesting, it's just fascinating. And. A lot of that growth has happened outside of the traditional wine areas in the West Coast. [00:04:30] It's happened, you know, in places like where I live in Michigan, but Pennsylvania, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, Texas, you know, Virginia, everywhere. And that to me is quite interesting because a lot of these wineries are, they're pretty small. And they sell a lot of their wine out of the tasting room which makes it a tourism product really, because they have to drive visitors to their tasting room. [00:04:52] So that's, that's what got my interest. But in a lot of these areas, you can't necessarily grow the traditional wines that you can out in California, for instance, in the central valley or, you know, Napa, Sonoma. Here in Michigan, we do have some areas where you can go vernifera and mostly, you know, like German varietal, the Riesling is, is quite good here, you know, cool, cool temps, but they're really in small microclimates, but a lot of the areas I tend to work in, they rely on, you know, hybrid grapes, wine grapes. [00:05:22] And, you know, these have just developed over the last 20 years, a lot of them or, you know, some of them are a little bit older but some of them are quite new, including Marquette, which is probably, You know, 15, 16, 17 years old since it was developed at University of Minnesota. And that wine in particular is quite interesting because when you're talking about, especially up here in the North where I work and with a lot of the wineries I'm at, they can do okay with white wines, but red wine has always been a bit of a challenge. [00:05:48] And so Marquette comes along and it's pretty promising wine for making, you know, red wine. So everybody was pretty excited about it. We wanted to know a little bit more about what you tell consumers that will impact their interest in a wine. In academia, we talk about this concept called willingness to pay or valuation. [00:06:09] Essentially what we're talking about is, how much does a product mean to somebody? And that they're willing to buy and how much are they willing to buy it for? So we did these interesting studies with Marquette looking at what can you tell somebody about this grape? That will increase their valuation of it because when we were talking to wineries, you know We'd ask them like what do you tell them about Marquette? And they said, well, you know, we tell them this and that. And as we had these conversations with a number of wineries, we could pretty much break down what they told about this grape into three categories. [00:06:42] One was sort of these sensory descriptions, medium bodied wine, grandson of Pinot Noir and, with hints of, and flavors of such and such [00:06:54] another category of information that they were talking about was, the local message, you know, everybody's into locally produced, locally you know, grown local, local, local. They talked about how the Marquette grape was developed sort of locally specifically for these environments. It doesn't require as many agricultural inputs you know, to be able to grow here. It, Helps local wineries to produce these kind of wines, et cetera, very local, local, local message. [00:07:23] And then the third thing was they talked about how wines made with Marquette grapes had won competitions at international wine competitions. And so, you know, that was one of the things they told about them. And so we wanted to know, like of those messages, does anyone have. A little bit more bang [00:07:38] Craig Macmillan: Right, right. [00:07:39] Dan McCole: you know, that you have, and, and, you know, that could be communicated on the label or in the tasting room or in tasting notes or whatever. [00:07:46] So, you know, essentially we did this complicated experiment and which is, you know, a whole other story on its own, but but it was kind of interesting, but essentially what we found was that one of those three messages didn't really impact people's willingness to pay. One of them did a little bit. And one of them did quite a bit. [00:08:05] Craig Macmillan: I'm on the edge of my seat. [00:08:06] Dan McCole: You're on the edge of your seat. Okay. I was wondering if you wanted to have a quiz. They didn't want to pay less, but they didn't necessarily want to pay more. [00:08:13] The local message, people were willing to pay more for that, but not a lot. [00:08:17] It was the awards, and it was interesting because we had people sample four different Marquette wines, and we didn't ask them about the specific wines, we just asked questions about Marquette wines. Here are four Marquette wines, you know, so you get a sense of this grape and the wines made from it. [00:08:33] And we didn't say that these wines had won awards just that wines made with Marquette had won awards. But that made people pay a willingness to pay a lot more. [00:08:41] Craig Macmillan: Interesting. [00:08:43] Dan McCole: And, and I think that has something to do with wine itself as a product. Part of our other research shows that, you know, The people who tend to go to tasting rooms in these emerging areas don't necessarily have the same level of wine knowledge or wine experience or wine purchase behavior. [00:08:58] And so they might be looking a little bit more toward people who are experts in this to tip them as to if they should like this or not. I mean, we're all kind of like that with, with wine, the points and things like that, you know, let's see what a, an expert tells us. And we're influenced by that. [00:09:15] Craig Macmillan: That is interesting. It just made me think of diffusion of innovation, you know, where you have some folks that would be like, Oh, Marquette's delicious, fantastic, I want it. And then there's another population that's like, Well, let's, is it? If other people are indicating that it's good and that they like it, which is communicated through points in this case, then that opens the door. [00:09:35] And then maybe you get some more momentum after that, some more momentum after that, momentum after that, you know, and wine regions have kind of developed along that same. Principle, the sense of place piece is also kind of interesting because a lot of wineries, I think are really focused on conveying these wines are a sense of place. [00:09:52] And I was expecting that to be a real motivator because these are special places with special wines. But not necessarily. [00:10:02] Dan McCole: Well, yeah, you know, wine more than probably any other product at least beverage is, so tied to the terroir, right? If you're thinking about a wine in Michigan or Iowa or, Missouri and you know, a little bit something about wine, you'd say, Oh, those aren't really wine areas. Are they? [00:10:22] And you might be a little skeptical. Whereas, you know, if you're talking about, Oh, this wine is made in Italy or France or Chile or, California or, Australia, wherever people say, Oh, yeah, they make good wines there. Right? This tie to the terroir in the area is true. But think about like, yeah. craft beers. People don't really give it the same level of scrutiny where it's made from. If you go to you know, a place, I mean, we just don't have the connection, you know, Germany or Czech or, you know, places are known for certain kinds of beer, but you're not necessarily skeptical about a beer made in Iowa or Missouri or Michigan or, wherever. [00:10:58] Same thing with spirits. We've seen a lot of craft distilleries coming around , and people think that's cool, . But wine, they're still a little suspicious of really. Could we really have a good wine made in this location or that location? So that sense of place is interesting. So I think with the, experiments we did, it was really that the reason there was a little bit of an increase, I think, is just people for. Mostly environmental reasons but you know, some other reasons to support local business you know, latched on to that local message. And we're willing to pay a little bit more for that, but not a lot more. [00:11:30] Craig Macmillan: Right. And if I remember correctly the environmental aspects of this did play at least a little bit of a role [00:11:37] Dan McCole: that that's exactly right. That is something that wineries do communicate about the wines especially made with hybrid wine grapes. I mean, first of all, the, the term hybrid grape is something that the industry uses and people like you and I might use but the average consumer doesn't know what that means. [00:11:53] The average consumer doesn't know what Vitis vinifera is. They've maybe heard of grapes, but, you know, if you ask them if they've heard of Cabernet Sauvignon or Marquette, they might say, Oh, I've heard of Cabernet Sauvignon, and if they're from certain areas where Marquette is grown, they might say, Oh, yeah, I've heard of that too, to a lesser extent, but they're not gonna know that one's a hybrid grape and one's not. [00:12:13] And even if you were told, they wouldn't know what that means. Cabernet Sauvignon sounds like a hybrid. Between Cabernet and Sauvignon, right? So, like, they don't really make that distinction as much as the industry does. [00:12:25] Craig Macmillan: Are there other varieties in the upper Midwest that have the same kind of potential, do you think? [00:12:31] Dan McCole: There are several that people are interested. You mentioned Frontenac before. Frontenac's been around for a while and it's another one that makes a red wine. Petite Pearl is sort of another one that's a little newer than Marquette, which has some promise. [00:12:45] On the white you have which has also been around for a little bit and you know, Brianna and La Crescent and, and some of those essentially what they do is allow for this growth that we've seen in areas where it was previously not feasible to, produce wine. [00:13:02] People are ever going to get to the point where they prefer a Marquette over a Cabernet Sauvignon, I mean, some people do but in large numbers that could be a while. And it may never happen. To me, a lot of these wineries and these areas. They're, they're smaller wineries that sell most of what they produce out of their tasting room. [00:13:24] And that's a pretty good model for them because when you're producing such a small amount of wine, the production cost per bottle is pretty high, so just to break even you might need to, you know, sell it at 15, 16, 17 dollars a bottle. If you want a little bit of a margin, you're going for 25 dollars. [00:13:44] Now if you're in a wine shop And you have the choice between, a $25 bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon or, go with something else like a you know, a Pinot Noir or something, and a $25 bottle of Marquette. It's gonna be hard for that Marquette to compete. [00:14:03] Plus the winery's gonna have to pay the, middleman, the distributor and the retailer. They're cut too. Selling it out of the tasting room makes a lot of sense when it's that high. You don't have the competition, you don't have to give other people their cut. , [00:14:16] what we've found in these areas is that people aren't going to the wineries for wine. [00:14:23] Our research clearly shows this. They're going for a wine based experience or wine themed experience, when we ask people why they came to the winery, the reasons given were, for a relaxing day out to socialize with somebody else to bond with friends or loved one or you know, a group of women who are getting ready and part of a bachelorette party or something. [00:14:44] And, lower down the list is to learn more about wine and lower down is to acquire wine or build my cellar or things like that. They're not going there for that purpose. They're going for an experience. [00:14:54] Now, if the experience is good and the wine is good enough, they'll buy some of that wine, again, because the context of a purchase. Makes all the difference in the world. For years, we've known this about consumer behavior, that the situation in which somebody buys something makes all the difference in their behavior, whether they're going to buy it. And we know this in the wine industry, right? Think about how much you're willing to pay for a bottle of wine at a restaurant versus at a store. [00:15:24] Because the situation is different. And our right. Our willingness to pay goes up. Our willingness to buy one product over another changes. And by like the situation I'm talking the physical surroundings make a difference. The social surroundings, who you're with you know, at the time, the temporal perspective, meaning the urgency associated with it whether you have plenty of time to shop, whether you're in a hurry, What they call the task, which is like the reason for the purchase. [00:15:49] So are you buying it for a gift? Are you bringing it to somebody's house? Are you getting it as a souvenir? And then, and this is, I think most important is something called the antecedent States. And this is like the consumers. Mood at the, at the moment of purchase, it's emotional state. And this has changed by, you know, what has happened immediately before the purchase. [00:16:11] So if you're at a winery and you know, Iowa, Missouri, Michigan, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and. You're having a great time and you and I are there together. We're getting along real well, getting to know each other. We're having a wine. The wine's, you know, fine. It's pretty good. We talked to some other people. It's just been a great day out. The weather's been beautiful. There are beautiful views and we walked through the vineyard. We're in a good mood, and that's gonna change our purchase situation. All of those factors change the purchase situation. In some cases, the wine just has to be good enough. [00:16:44] Now, if the wine is terrible and it's really a burden to drink, we're probably not gonna buy that wine. [00:16:50] Craig Macmillan: A burden to drink. I love that. I've never heard that before. I'm going to use that in my real life. [00:16:56] Dan McCole: Have you, have you had many wines that have been a burden [00:16:59] Craig Macmillan: I I'm a judge for a home winemaking competition. So yes, many wines are a burden to drink. [00:17:05] Dan McCole: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I've had a few, but generally... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34275290

256: How These Brands Grow Grapes Sustainably | Marketing Tip Monday 12/09/2024

256: How These Brands Grow Grapes Sustainably | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: It's one thing to be able to say that your grapes are grown sustainably, but to be able to explain to someone what that really means is a different story. [00:00:09] Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday with Sip Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry, These twice monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:30] When it comes to telling your sustainable story, there's an easy framework that can help you. The seven values of SIP certified, which include social responsibility, water management, safe pest management, energy efficiency, habitat, business, and always evolving. [00:00:47] You can use these seven values to talk about the real ways your brand practices sustainability at every level of your business. [00:00:55] Dozens of SIP certified brands have already used this framework. In this week's marketing tip, we share the 2024 sustainable stories and invite you to be featured next year. [00:01:06] Our first value is social responsibility. Oso Libre's Por Vida Foundation supports four causes that are near and dear to the owner's hearts. Veteran services, women's cancer research, animal support groups, and children and family support groups. In fact, this year, they donated funding raised from their July Angus event to the Vineyard Team's Juan Nevarez Memorial Scholarship, helps children of vineyard and wine industry workers pay for a higher education. By supporting Oso Libre, guests and customers give back, too. [00:01:39] The second value is water management. At the heart of Bien Nacido Vineyard's sustainable farming ethos lies a diligent approach to water management. Their team of experienced irrigators tailor their irrigation practices to fit the land's needs by using weather data and plant and soil moisture data. [00:01:57] Our third value is safe pest management. Presqu'ile Vineyard knew they could protect their vines from birds in a way that was more sustainable than non biodegradable labor intensive bird netting. [00:02:08] Installing programmable bird lasers has protected their vineyards from feathered pests on top of having several other sustainable benefits. [00:02:17] The fourth value is energy efficiency. From a hillside nestled production facility that utilizes gravity flow to solar panels that provide the majority of the energy needs for their building and EV charging stations for customers, Niner Wine Estates reaches a high bar for energy efficiency. [00:02:36] The fifth value is habitat. The team at Ancient Peaks Winery and Margarita Adventures is dedicated to protecting the habitats of the various species of wildlife that inhabit the land and water on their property. If you want to learn more about the native life at the ranch, you can take one of several tours with naturalist Jacqueline, including nature photography, foraging, and my favorite, ziplining. [00:03:00] The sixth value is business. As a business rooted in female leadership, Cambria Estate Winery shows their dedication to uplifting and empowering women in an incredibly impactful way. Every March for Women's History Month, Cambria selects an organization that aligns with their pillars of climate action and women's leadership and pledges $25,000 to support their efforts. [00:03:26] And the seventh value is always evolving. Tolosa's Three P's Groups welcomes everyone on their team to participate in the business's value of always evolving. Employees get involved in a group, either people, planet, or prosperity, and work together to find ways to analyze and improve the business's sustainable practices. [00:03:46] If you want to read any of these incredible stories in more detail, make sure that you go to the show notes and click on the link, how these brands grow grapes sustainably. [00:03:57] If you're a SIP certified brand and want to share your sustainable story, let us know. Simply email Whitney at vineyard team. org with the value you want to share and how you fulfill that value. She will help you write your story. And we'll share it in a future marketing tips newsletter and podcast. [00:04:14] Until next time, this is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/34265130

255: Red Wine Headache? Quercetin May be the Cause 12/05/2024

255: Red Wine Headache? Quercetin May be the Cause What causes the “red wine headache”? Is it sulfites? A histamine reaction? Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus of Enology in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis and Apramita Devi, Postdoctoral Scholar in the Department of Viticulture and Enology at UC Davis have identified a flavanol that can interfere with the metabolism of alcohol. That flavanol is quercetin, a natural product made in grape skins in response to sunlight. It is a natural sunscreen produced to protect the fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines, how skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels, and why sulfites may play a role in “red wine headache”. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: What causes. The red wine headache? Is it sulfites or a histamine reaction? [00:00:10] Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. I've been your team. Since 1994, we've brought you the latest science-based practices, experts growers and wine industry tools through both infield and online education. So that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass. With us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:37] In today's podcast, Craig Macmillan, critical resource. Manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified. Vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with two university of California Davis researchers. Andrew Waterhouse. Professor emeritus of enology and the department. of, viticulture and enology. And. Oprah meta Debbie. Post-doctoral scholar and the department of viticulture and enology. [00:01:04] They have identified a flavonol that can interfere. With the metabolism of alcohol. And that flavonol is called quercetin. A natural product made in the grape skins in response. To sunlight. It's a natural sunscreen produced to protect. The fruit from ultraviolet light. This conversation covers. Why quercetin may be more prevalent in high end wines. How. Skin contact during wine production impacts quercetin levels. And why sulfites may still play a role in that red wine headache. [00:01:36] Want to be more connected with the viticulture industry. But don't know where to start become a vineyard team member. Get access. to the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry. The tools. Through both infield and online education so that you. You can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business to join the community today. [00:01:57] Now let's listen. in. [00:02:01] Craig Macmillan: Our guests today are Andrew Waterhouse, Professor Emeritus in Enology in the Department of Viticulture Davis, and also Aparmita Devi. She is a postdoctoral scholar, also in the Department of Viticulture & Enology Davis. Thank you both for being here. [00:02:17] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, we're glad to be here. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Today we're going to talk about a really interesting topic. It's the role of quercetin , in wine headaches. The two of you recently co authored a paper on this one particular mechanism that might cause some people to get a headache after drinking even a small amount of red wine. But before we get into that, I want to ask you, how did you get interested in this topic? [00:02:37] Andrew Waterhouse: Well I've been talking to Steve Mathiasson. He's a Napa winemaker for actually quite a while, some years back. He suffers from headaches when he drinks certain wines. And we were chatting about possible mechanisms, and we even did a study many years ago with another postdoc in my lab to investigate a question we had or a theory we had, and that didn't pan out. But more recently we were chatting again, and I got interested in the topic again, and that's what got me interested, you know, just somebody knowledgeable who was suffering from headaches and. for listening. It was, it makes it more real and it's like, well, maybe we can figure something out. So that's what got us started. [00:03:17] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , how same for you. [00:03:19] Apramita Devi: Yeah. Same. Like I've been in touch with Andy and we have been talking about this project many years. So I was always interested because I come from biological science and metabolism and stuff I got interested after talking to Andy. [00:03:33] Craig Macmillan: Well, let's start with some basics. What is quercetin? [00:03:38] Andrew Waterhouse: Well, basically, it's a natural product made by grapes, but it's a very specific one. It's in the class of polyphenolic compounds, and it's in the class of flavonoids called flavonols. And what makes it interesting, I think, is that it is made By grapes, in the skin of the grape, and only in the skin of the grape, in response to sunlight. It's sometimes referred to as sunscreen for grapes. And it specifically absorbs UV light that would cause damage to, say, DNA and other macromolecules. So it's very clear that the grapes are producing this in order to protect themselves from ultraviolet light. [00:04:22] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:04:22] Andrew Waterhouse: So the amount that's present in wine is highly dependent on the amount of sunlight the grapes experience. Not the vine, but the grapes themselves, And a friend of mine, Steve Price, was the first to note this. In a study way back in the 90s on Pinot Noir, he noted that there was more quercetin in sun exposed Pinot Noir grapes. And that observation has been confirmed many times now in different studies. where sun exposure is correlated with quercetin levels. [00:04:58] Craig Macmillan: and this is true just for red grapes as opposed to white grapes. [00:05:02] Andrew Waterhouse: Oh, no, no, there's more in white grapes. But when you make white wine, you throw away the skins. So there's no opportunity to get those materials into the wine. Now, an exception might be orange wine. But I don't know of any data on orange wine. [00:05:21] Craig Macmillan: Apramita , maybe you can talk about the metabolism part, the biology part. So when people consume alcohol, it's metabolized down certain pathways. Quercetin is also metabolized by the body into other forms? [00:05:33] Apramita Devi: Yeah, so the pathway for alcohol and quercetin are a bit different, but the location is liver, where it goes. So when people consume alcohol, it goes to the liver and then there are two enzymes which work on the alcohol. So the first enzyme is alcohol dehydrogenase, which convert it into alcohol into acetaldehyde. The acetaldehyde is the like the toxic metabolite in the body and it can have many side effects. That's why body has to get rid of it out of the liver system. So it has a second enzyme which is called the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase. So that convert acetaldehyde dehydrogenase into a non toxic component, which is acetate or acetic system. [00:06:24] So it comes out of the body. What happens when you consume quercetin along in the body, the quercetin also goes to the liver. Because quercetin adds too much quercetin as such is not good for the body and it has low bioavailability. So liver tag it in the form of quercetin glucuronide and then the body knows that it has to be flushed out of the system. So the interesting part is that when you consume alcohol and quercetin together, You are taking the both the metabolite acetaldehyde and quercetin gluconide in the same location inside the liver. And it gives the quercetin gluconide to interact with the acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme. And that acetaldehyde dehydrogenase enzyme now cannot work efficiently. to convert the acetaldehyde into the acetate. So basically you are building up acetaldehyde in the body and it's not coming out of the system and you are seeing all those negative effects of the acetaldehyde in the form of flushing or headache or not. The other systems like what's like sweating. so we think that there is a correlation between these two pathways, which might be associated in red wine system. [00:07:47] Craig Macmillan: And how did you design your study? [00:07:51] Apramita Devi: The first when I talked to Andy, like he told me that he thinks that this system is because of inflammatory pathways and inflammation system. So he was kind of like, there is something in red wine, which is Triggering this kind of pathways or there is some system so, but we were not sure what exactly are those inflammatory system. [00:08:16] So we went back and saw some literature and we kind of find that there are some studies which told that quercitans inhibit the dehydrogenase enzymes and that what triggered us that okay alcohol is metabolized by these dehydrogenase enzymes. And wine also has these phenolics. So what kind of phenolics, other kinds of phenolics, or what types of phenolics can do this inhibition? [00:08:45] The method was basically in, was based on having different phenolics, which are present in red wines more compared to white wines, select them. And then just, we find this enzyme kits in the market to do this dehydrogenase. Inhibition tests like you put the test compound and it tells whether the enzyme is the inhibited or not. [00:09:09] So we just did that in a test tube system, like we added our phenolics with the enzyme, and we saw that which kind of phenolics are inhibiting this enzyme and screening them out. out of all. So while doing that, we screened different types of quercetin, like quercetin glucoside, quercetin galactosides, and other forms. [00:09:32] Then we also tested other phenolics. I can for all my rest in and other stuff. And we also choose quercetin gluconide because that is the metabolite which is circulating in the body. And then we kind of screen them based on the in the enzyme system and we see how much inhibition is happening there. [00:09:54] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. So what we did was a very basic test to experiment. We didn't test anything on people. [00:10:01] We basically tested to see which of these compounds could inhibit that enzyme because we knew that if that an enzyme could be inhibited the acetaldehyde would accumulate and you'd end up with people in that condition would end up with Flushing, headaches, as Aparmita said, all kinds of other symptoms. [00:10:20] Craig Macmillan: And this would vary by person. Different people may have a proclivity to produce more of certain enzymes than others. Is that true? [00:10:29] Andrew Waterhouse: We don't really have any information about that. That's going to take a lot of more work to test you know, the, the details here. For instance. Some people get red wine headaches and some don't, but we don't know whether, for instance, perhaps their enzymes are more inhibited by quercetin glucuronide, or maybe they're just more sensitive to acetaldehyde. [00:10:52] So that's going to take, you know, human studies where we measure a bunch of things. And try to figure out, try to sort through the, the details of how this impacts people individually. [00:11:04] Craig Macmillan: What would a study , with people, investigating this, what would the design be like? How would somebody go about doing that? [00:11:12] Andrew Waterhouse: Okay. So a human study. Could have a couple different possible designs. The one we'll probably use is we'll simply find two wines, two red wines, one that's low in quercetin and one that's high. And then those will be administered to people who get red wine headaches. We'll give it to them blind, they'll have to agree of course to participate in the study. [00:11:37] And then we'll see if their experience of headaches is related to the quantity of quercetin. Now, there's some other designs we could imagine using, which might be a little more straightforward, but we're not sure how relevant they would be or whether we could get approval to do this. So, for instance, one approach would be to find a red wine that's low in quercetin and then simply add it. [00:12:00] Now adding it is tricky for a number of technical reasons. Quercetin itself is very insoluble, so we would have to add what's called a glycoside of quercetin. So we'd have to get our hands on something that would dissolve, et cetera, et cetera. We're not sure we could get approval for that because we're adding a chemical to wine. [00:12:21] Now, the chemical would probably be classified as a supplement, and so it might be approvable, as it were. And then another very simple experiment, which we thought about a while ago, you can buy quercetin as a supplement in the market. It's readily available. [00:12:38] So, one possibility is to simply give our subjects a glass of vodka and give them pills that either contain quercetin or a placebo and see if there's a relationship between administration of quercetin and headaches. [00:12:54] Now the, the quercetin itself, as I mentioned, is very insoluble. So we may have to get these more bioavailable forms of quercetin for that experiment. [00:13:04] Craig Macmillan: That leads to a wine making question. So, if it's relatively insoluble is quercetin extracted from skins more in the alcohol phase at the end of fermentation? [00:13:11] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah. It's, it's, it's extracted fairly quickly because it's in the skin, in the grapes, it's in the form of what are called glycosides. So these, Has the quercetin molecule with the sugar attached. That makes all those forms very soluble. [00:13:27] Craig Macmillan: Oh, okay. Okay. [00:13:29] Andrew Waterhouse: There's actually an occasional problem with certain red wines, most commonly Sangiovese, where after bottling the wine has had a large quantity of quercetin glucosides. And after bottling, they break down, the glycosides break down, releasing just a simple a glycone, quercetin, and you get this disgusting looking gooey brown precipitate in the bottle. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: ha [00:13:57] Andrew Waterhouse: Every few years I know the folks at ETS in Napa get somebody showing up with a bottle of Sangiovese that's got this. Disgusting sludge in it, and they can tell them without analyzing that. Yes, another case, of course, it's in precipitate in the bottom. [00:14:15] Craig Macmillan: Huh, that's interesting. I believe it was mentioned in the paper that , obviously different growing conditions are going to lead to different levels of quercetin and grapes based on how much sun exposure they have, etc. And that also different winemaking techniques would have an impact. [00:14:29] If consumers are looking for products if they know they have a headache issue Is it possible they could experiment with different product types? Products that were made with different production methods if they can find that out that might Impact their sensitivity or might impact how often it happens [00:14:46] Andrew Waterhouse: Yeah, it's a pity that. Consumers wouldn't have information on the level of quercetin. We would very much like to do a study along those lines, but we haven't been able to find any funding for that, just in case somebody wants to support that kind of work, we're happy to work with them. but anyway you know, it hasn't really been an issue for winemakers, so there isn't a lot of data out there. [00:15:08] There are a few studies that published amounts of quercetin, you know, in wines from different places, but the data is very, very limited and not really useful in providing consumers guidance. The one thing we can say is because, as I mentioned earlier, sun exposure is very important, in general if you look at a particular type of wine, a varietal, say Cabernet or Pinot Noir, that the grapes that are grown on very large vines, will have less sun exposure. [00:15:39] Essentially if you have a very highly productive vineyard making targeting an inexpensive line, you probably have much more shading of the fruit as a consequence of lower quercetin levels. Compared to a very high end vineyard, usually, the amount of sunlight is very tightly controlled, and one of the reasons for that is that there's very good data showing that wines that are high in quercetin have a better mouthfeel, better texture in the mouth. And it's not clear whether quercetin is directly responsible or whether it's a marker for something else that's produced under those conditions that leads to that. many years ago, we did a study looking at phenolics in Cabernet, and we observed that the very high end Cabernets that we tested were much higher in quercetin than the sort of average price type product. [00:16:35] And I think that that was true then. It's probably true now that, you know, a very good cabernet is, is made with very tight control of sun exposure. And there is a fair amount, of course, it can't be a complete sun exposure, or they probably get raisins by the end of the harvest, by the time you get to harvest, but there's a very deliberate management of sun exposure in high end wines. And it's for a reason to, get to higher quality product. [00:17:04] Craig Macmillan: Right, exactly! And, We know that the managed sun exposure, quercetin is a part of it but also it's connected to just total phenolics in general. Lots and lots of different compounds that are, you know, semi related. And I actually wanted to go back Aprametia you identified the quercetin glucuronide as being The highest in the ones that you tested, were there other things in that test and that assay that all were also stood out, maybe not as high as that, but really kind of stuck out as being different than the rest. [00:17:39] Apramita Devi: Actually, the quercetin gluconide was a standalone as a very high, like it's like 78%. The other things were around in that 30 percent range, so I'm not sure how significant was the impact of that, but there were quercetin glycosides forms, which were like around 30 percent inhibition of the enzyme, but [00:18:03] all others were very low. [00:18:04] Craig Macmillan: yeah, so it really stood out basically as it was head and shoulders above it. I would like to put this work into context a little bit. I, I work with the public quite a bit as part of my job and I have for years. And this topic comes up. All the time. This information definitely helps me my goal, when I talk to a consumer that has an issue with, wine headache or whatever it's not that I'm trying to sell them a product as much as it is. [00:18:29] They want to enjoy wine. They tell me this, they say, Oh, I love to have it. I just can't. Da da da. And then they'll say, it's like sulfites. And then I'll kind of explore that with them a little bit. Like, so can you eat dried fruit? Do you eat canned fruit? Do you have reactions to this or to that? Are you asthmatic? [00:18:48] Kind of sort that out and go, okay, I don't think maybe that's it. Maybe it's not. The other ones that I just learned about about 10 years ago was a biogenic amines, which made a lot of sense to me in terms of things like histamine reactions. What is your feeling about sulfites is contributing biogenic amines. [00:19:04] Maybe there's other things we haven't hit on, on this topic. What are your feelings about the, kind of the big picture of what potential for a diagnosing assist? [00:19:15] Andrew Waterhouse: Why don't you talk about amines [00:19:16] Craig Macmillan: Yes, please, [00:19:18] Apramita Devi: Biogenic amines like mostly the histamine and tyramine are the main ones people talk about whenever they come with this headache stuff. So I think because it's formed in the... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33808062

254: Tips for Greener Holiday Gatherings | Marketing Tip Monday 11/25/2024

254: Tips for Greener Holiday Gatherings | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] While, the year is nearing its end. There's still a lot of actibity and work ahead with the holidays. This marketing tip. We'll give you ideas for a greener holiday season. Use them in the tasting. Room. And at home. Welcome to Marketing Tip Monday. With sip certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustained. Sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest. Latest science and research for the wine industry. These monthly. Monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing. [00:00:33] Now let's get into some. Some tips for greener gatherings. [00:00:37] Consider getting a. A living tree rather than a cut or artificial tree. With the right tree and. The proper care it can survive the holiday season and then be planted on your property. [00:00:47] Use led lights for decorating your space. They use up to 90%, less energy than traditional incandescent. Bulbs. And can last up to 25 times longer. At an. Average of 30 cents a kilowatt powering 500 incandescent. C9 bulbs, eight hours a day for 30 days. It would cost $294. While the same five. 500 led bulbs would only cost $37.80. That's also sustainable savings for your pocket book. Plus many led lights have features like dimming. Color adjusting and motion detection. So you can customize your look and. Use them for other occasions. [00:01:27] Do you have holiday events on your calendar?. There are many options for biodegradable plates. Bowls and cutlery. Add them to your compost heap or. Send them to an industrial composting facility. Just be sure not to recycle. Recycle them organic materials can damage recycling equipment. And don't put them in the trash organic waste and landfills could produce methane gas. [00:01:49] And who. Who doesn't love local goods. Invite local vendors into your retail space. Base. To give your guests some locally sourced gift options bonus. Points. If they use natural or recycled materials. Alternative. you could opt for the gift of a local experience like dinner for two a spa day or certificate to a local shop. [00:02:08] Oh, the ribbons and bows, but where do they go? [00:02:11] When it comes to sustainability over the holidays. Days we need to address packaging. [00:02:15] For those of us who aren't the paper and ribbon collector. At the gift exchange, use. Just wrapping materials can be recycled. Plus some can even. And be composted. [00:02:24] Make sure. You check out. At the show notes to link to this article called holiday marketing. Marketing tips. To review an awesome chart. To help you gift. Wrap the Greenway. It covers what kinds of wrapping paper? Tissue paper, gift bags, boxes, ribbons, and bows can. Can be recycled. Composted. Plus some creative alternatives like wrapping. Packaging in a tea towel. And making your own paper bows. [00:02:50] Here's a bonus tip. Check out. Tip number two. In the five sustainable tasting room habits, marketing tip. To learn a few more responsible recycling practices. [00:03:00] This February. We'll continue the celebrate. Celebration of sustainable wine and we'd love for you to come celebrate with us at reciprocal, February over 30 sip certified brands have. I already joined. [00:03:12] And you can join to. Share. ReSIProcal club tastings with participating brands to increase your traffic and. Connect with like-minded brands and wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. [00:03:21] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcript by Descript. Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/pecan-pie/happy-holiday-swing License code: QEFYRHVU5DRTFHPW Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33810647

253: Regenerative Agriculture: The Path the Climate Change Resilience? 11/21/2024

253: Regenerative Agriculture: The Path the Climate Change Resilience? Want to practice regenerative agriculture? Daniel Rath, Agricultural Soil Carbon Scientist at Natural Resources Defense Council recommends that you start by asking what you want to regenerate. Beneficial practices including integrating livestock, crop rotations, cover cropping, minimizing tillage, increasing diversity, improving soil health, adding organic matter, and reducing external inputs will vary site to site. A long-term study found that these practices improved above and below ground biodiversity, increased water storage and infiltration, bolstered resilience to climate change, increased carbon and organic matter storage, and, impressively improved human health. Listen to the end to learn how soil metagenomics has the potential to not only tell us what is living in the soil but how the organisms interact. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Our guest today is Daniel Rath. He is a soil scientist with the Natural Resources Defense Council. And today we're going to be talking about regenerative agriculture. Thanks for being on the podcast, Daniel. [00:00:10] Daniel Rath: Thanks a lot, Craig. I'm excited to be here. [00:00:13] Craig Macmillan: We've been trying to find folks to talk about regenerative agriculture because it's a real buzzword right now. [00:00:18] And it's a buzzword in the vineyard industry, but it's not vineyard specific. This is applying to all sectors of agriculture and globally. This is a big concept now. So that's inspiring and drawing a lot of people, uh, in different directions. But I get different definitions of it. What regenerative agriculture? [00:00:37] Daniel Rath: Well, first of all, I'll say it's not really surprising that you get a different definition depending on who you talk to because, you know, regenerative agriculture really hasn't been like very specifically defined yet the way I think about it. Part of the reason it's so hard to define is that it's really more of a philosophy and an approach to land management. [00:00:59] And so, you know, it's taking into acknowledgement the fact that agricultural systems have this complexity. And instead of trying to reduce that complexity, we lean into it. We see what advantages we can get from it. It's a holistic approach. You know, it doesn't just necessarily focus on the environmental impacts, but what are the social impacts? [00:01:18] What are the economic impacts of agricultural systems? Looking at things like local food systems and connecting farmers to consumers, but also how do we increase soil health? How do we reduce pests and diseases? It's funny. You should bring it up now. The state of California. Just finished a process in of defining regenerative agriculture for their legislative effort. [00:01:40] Craig Macmillan: Oh [00:01:41] Daniel Rath: Yeah, there's a draft definition out there have been numerous listening sessions The next one is on august 22nd, but I was part of that committee that tried to like Capture this sort of like ephemeral philosophy and like nail it down without hopefully killing it. [00:01:57] Craig Macmillan: Uh, and to put a timestamp, the date of this interview is August of 2024. [00:02:03] So this is new to that point. We'll see how that develops from here. Which is pretty cool, but no, I was not aware of that. That's pretty, pretty interesting. What are some of the specific practices somebody might use? So, philosophically, I'm in alignment. I want to build and protect my soil. I want to protect my community. [00:02:20] I want to have healthier plants. What are some of the techniques that folks are using around the world to do this? [00:02:26] Daniel Rath: Well, I will answer your question with a saying that my PhD advisor used to tell me every time I walked into her office, which was that, you know, what is your goal? What is the question that you're trying to ask, right? [00:02:37] Part of the reason that regenerative agriculture does not have one set definition is that it's going to look very different. different depending on where you are. A regenerative agricultural system in a place that is facing a lot of restrictions on water, low soil organic matter, the practices you use there are going to look very different than say if you have regenerative agriculture in a place that has regular rainfall, has a lot of soil organic matter, very active soils. [00:03:02] I would say that some of the most commonly mentioned practices are things like integrating livestock into perennial systems, cover crops, crop rotation, increasing the diversity on farm systems, reducing tillage, basically all of these practices that increase soil health, because really increasing soil health is at the the core of what it means to sort of regenerate a plot of land. [00:03:29] But if you're talking about specific practices, you kind of have to think like, well, what am I trying to regenerate? What are the goals that I want to get out of it? One other interesting topic is the idea of reducing external inputs, not eliminating them entirely, but reducing dependence on things like fertilizers and pesticides, seeing how a that can result in cost savings for farmers, but also Relying on the natural complexity of the system to provide those benefits. [00:03:58] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, that's always been one of the tenants of sustainable farming is to reduce the number of off farm inputs and reduce the number of farm outputs other than the crop, and that includes things like pollution, erosion, whatever, um, and try to develop a system that's stable in and of itself. Um, and it sounds like there's some things that can contribute to that. [00:04:18] Um, what about composting? That's another popular topic. [00:04:21] Daniel Rath: Composting, I forgot to mention that composting really adding organic matter to the soil. A lot of the systems that we've developed over the last few decades are very focused on adding nitrogen, which is important. Nitrogen is a really big limiting nutrient, but we've learned that adding nitrogen on its own is not enough. [00:04:38] You have to add carbon in there. You have to add other micronutrients that might not be contained in your typical fertilizer mixture. And so yeah, adding compost is a really great way adding organic matter residue crop. [00:04:53] Craig Macmillan: Again, the inclusion of animals seems to be, um, pretty consistent across different definitions, including mobile cropping systems. [00:05:00] In permanent crops that can be a little tricky. So like in vineyards, I have heard of folks that were grazing goats and sheep in season for the most part. Folks will plant a cover crop in the winter and then maybe they'll come through with some sheep or some goats in the springtime. I guess my question is, when I read other things and they talk about having animals as part of the system, I see like herds of cattle, which are generating a lot of manure. [00:05:25] And I can go, yeah, I, I bet that's doing a lot, but your smaller ruminants, in your opinion, I mean, can they contribute enough in a, in a, a seasonal, uh, past to, to make a difference? [00:05:39] Daniel Rath: Yeah, this, that's a really good point. I think the short answer is, yeah, I think they do. And so the example you gave is, I think the one I would have used, right, is that planting cover crops in between these sort of like, vines that are there for a long time, and then using ruminants to terminate those cover crops and to convert it into manure and urine, which was a great source of nitrogen. [00:06:00] When I was at UC Davis doing my PhD, we had a couple experiments on sheep terminating cover crops and goats terminating cover crops. And you could see the benefits in the soil, as long as you had those like livestock ruminants being on the plot. [00:06:15] Craig Macmillan: That leads to another question. You know, I've got the philosophy now. [00:06:19] I believe in the philosophy. I believe that I can actually improve the soils. One of the things I've always been a little suspicious of with regenerative agriculture is the idea of regeneration. I have a hard time kind of making sense of that in my mind in agricultural systems because things are leaving. [00:06:36] And certain crops are not big miners. Wine grapes are kind of famous for not really mining the soil that much and they can grow in very poor soils Doesn't mean you don't want to build those soils, but if I'm looking to detect what we would call regeneration, what kinds of Variables might I be looking at and what are the kinds of things that I might actually be able to get some metrics on? [00:07:00] Where I can say yes, this program seems to be working This is making a difference or I'm not seeing the results that I would like Maybe I should make a shift and try something different [00:07:09] Daniel Rath: Yeah, that's also a really good question. So I think there are actually two really interesting questions in what you just said. [00:07:15] The first one is, what do you measure? And again, it depends on your question, but very often the things that we will measure will be things like soil organic matter, right? We will be looking at measurements such as nutrient balance. So how much nitrogen is soil's organic matter, what are the nitrate and phosphorus levels in the soil for wine grapes? [00:07:36] I know you don't want it to be like too fertile because it is good to stress those grapes out a little bit to get a high quality product. You look at things like drainage and water storage. If you see better infiltration on plots, if you don't see water ponding quite as much. One thing that is becoming more common is tracking microbial indicators, right? [00:07:56] And so part of the reason that we do that is that microbes are like early indicators. They will change faster than the soil organic matter content. And so they can give you an idea of where you're headed and whether or not it's a direction you want to be heading in. I can, you know, apply to stuff like pest and disease too. [00:08:15] Craig Macmillan: This is a great one because I've been working on this for the last couple of years. What am I looking for? I, uh, there's a bunch of different tests that you can do. There's a bunch of different things you can look at. If I'm trying to get a sense of what's happening with the cell microbiome, what kind of testing might I be interested in doing? [00:08:30] What kinds of things might I specifically be looking for? [00:08:34] Daniel Rath: There have been a lot of advances in the last, you know, decade or so looking at this. One of the biggest areas that there have been advancements is tracking the incidence of pests and diseases, right? And so, you know, that is a really good one. If you're worried or, you know, concerned about a specific pest, there are often really good methods to test for that. [00:08:52] You can also be looking at biological tests that look at functions of interest. So say your goal is to reduce nitrogen application on your plot. There are measurements that you can make of nitrogen release from organic matter by microbes and that will give you a really good idea or, you know, a fairly good idea of maybe how much nitrogen this soil is already supplying. [00:09:17] California is also really interested in this. So another thing, there's a soil biodiversity report that came out about a year ago in which the CDFA asked us this very question. They were like, if we were going to measure soil biology across California for a number of different purposes, what would we do? [00:09:32] We had 15 scientists that have really been working on this for a long time. We all sat down and like, how do we capture the thought process and thinking that goes into this? into selecting the right microbial indicator because there are a lot of them and they're not all easy to interpret. [00:09:47] Craig Macmillan: Are those recommendations out there now? [00:09:49] Daniel Rath: I would say the, the report is out and in the report we, you, we have a couple examples. We're really hoping that the California Department of Food and Ag will sort of expand on those recommendations for more like, sort of like a targeted approach. Really what we did is we used that nitrogen example as an example. [00:10:10] It's like this is how you would do it, but really the devil is in the details. What is the specific area you're looking at? What is like the question you're looking to answer? The biodiverse report has at least like the thought process, what are the things you should be looking for? [00:10:25] Craig Macmillan: So we've been talking about kind of like more short term. [00:10:27] What about long term? You have some experience, I believe, in long term agricultural research. Like, I think you did a study that was like a 25 year retrospective, if you will, of the health of a particular farm. In the long term, in the longer range, What kinds of benefits should we expect? We've talked about pest and disease resistance, maybe water status. [00:10:51] What kinds of slow changes might we be looking for that we might see that would give us some confidence that this is working? [00:10:58] Daniel Rath: Sure. I mean, this is an example of why long term experiments are so great because. They're the only really way for us to get at this question. But you can expect things like improved biodiversity on, um, especially above ground biodiversity, below ground biodiversity. [00:11:15] That is a process that takes a long time. You can see things like improved water storage, improved water infiltration. You can see You know, if you're talking about the ultimate long term metric resilience, right, how do our agricultural systems respond to the climate changes that are already occurring and, you know, building that resilience means relying on this like complex biological network that really sustains our plants right now. [00:11:46] Increased carbon and organic matter storage is another really good one. And so, you know, over time you see all of these environmental benefits and along with that comes social benefits. We see improved human health. We see improved connectivity between farms and the communities nearby. Improved sort of farm worker health and safety. [00:12:07] All of these things are a little bit longer term, but they are all one of some of the goals and some of the benefits we see from regenerative systems. [00:12:16] Craig Macmillan: I want to drop back to one of the practices because I've talked about this quite a bit with folks. I want to get your take on it. No till or minimal till. [00:12:24] Or, uh, I talked to one person that said, uh, avoid excessive tillage. And the question that came back was, what the heck is that? What's excessive? You know, what, if I drag the disc through here one time, is that excessive? And this may apply to other crops that you've worked with. What role does tillage have in this process, in these systems? [00:12:45] Because one school of thought that I'm familiar with is, okay, we grow these cover crops, we terminate them with sheep, it's great, but we may still want to incorporate that material into the soil. So that it breaks down and gets in there. Then there's another school of thought that says, No, don't do that. [00:13:03] Don't touch it. Leave it alone. Let the system do what it normally does. And then there's a third school of thought that's like, well, I can't do that forever. Floors get too bumpy. Um, things need to be reset. Or I need to plant cover crops. So I need to set a seed bed. And again, you can draw from other cropping systems on this. [00:13:21] What is your feelings about the effect of tillage on the soil microbiome and soil health discrimination? [00:13:26] Daniel Rath: No, no till has been a really hot topic for quite a while. It came about when the NRCS was first started looking to reduce the impacts of a dust bowl and realizing that tillage was over tillage was a major cause of that. [00:13:41] And so when you are looking at no tillage, there are very clear benefits. There's increased plant root presence, decreased erosion, better soil structure formation, a potential for better infiltration. But you have to wear that against the. benefits of tillage. I mean, it has very clear benefits too. It helps to keep weed and pest populations under control. [00:14:03] It makes it a little bit easier, especially in annual cropping systems for roots to establish. Like you said precisely, it's a better way for incorporating organic matter into the soil. My point of view is that I think tillage is a valuable tool in the farmer's toolbox, right? And that what is over tillage is going to really depend on where you are. [00:14:24] If you're on a slope, probably less tillage is better because again, you don't want that top soil to be washed off. If you're on sort of like a flat plain and you know, you know, you're tilling to establish a crop, then it's probably not a big deal to have one or two tillage passes, at least from the erosion standpoint. [00:14:41] What we do know is that no till has also been recommended as a way to increase soil carbon. There's still, I think, a little bit of back and forth on that. At least we have seen is that no till increases soil carbon at the top. Part of the soil really doesn't increase at the bottom. So it's more of a redistribution of carbon again There are really clear benefits to tillage and you know There's a reason that people have been doing it for a long time [00:15:07] Craig Macmillan: kind of what I'm hearing I think this is a really great message is it's another tool. [00:15:11] It's a tool that we don't have to throw away But it is one that we should think about how we use it. I've, I've actually started to think about tillage the same way I think about, uh, pesticides and fertilizers. Where it's, it's a question of what benefit am I going to get from this? Do I need to do it? [00:15:28] Are there other things that I could do? And then you put that all into your calculator in your brain and, and try to sort it out. And I've had some very interesting conversations as how different people kind of sorted those things out. So I think that's a great point. That leads me to another question that I just thought of. [00:15:42] And so the role of synthetic fertilizers, for instance. The synthetic fertilizers have been pointed to, and I think accurately so, as driving land degradation in many cases, especially the overuse of nitrate based fertilizers. You also have environmental impacts in terms of pollution, potentially. Is there a role for conventional fertilizers in regenerative agriculture? [00:16:05] Daniel Rath: Yeah, well, that's a real hot button topic there. Yeah. [00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: Hey, we go, we go for deep water on the show. Inquiring minds want to know. Hey, [00:16:16] Daniel Rath: that's, that's a real good question. Honestly, that's a question that I has been taking up a lot of my professional time recently. Like you said, it's not a secret. We are seeing a lot of negative environmental impacts from Over application of fertilizers that includes nitrate pollution in groundwater that applies to pesticides as well. [00:16:36] You know neonic pesticides have had major problems with insect populations. I think that exactly What you said you need to sort of weigh the costs and benefits Of these like particular practices and you know In my work in my phd talking to farmers the sort of farmer calculus that occurs in like You know, in the minds of the folks... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33675487

252: Third-Party Certification – Who Gives a SIP | Marketing Tip Monday 11/11/2024

252: Third-Party Certification – Who Gives a SIP | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Have you ever. Wondered do third-party certifications matter to consumers? [00:00:05] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that consumers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer form episodes help you learn about the latest science. And research for the wine industry, these twice monthly micro podcasts. will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing. [00:00:24] If you've wondered about third-party. Certifications. You're not alone. This question has. I also crossed the university of Portland's Sam Holloway's mind. In this week's marketing tip learn about Holloway's qualitative. Research findings. And what they mean for your sustainable wine brand. [00:00:40] Holloway was interested in learning. How supply chain certifications are perceived by consumers. Impact purchasing decisions. And impact brand loyalty. In interviews and focus group discussions, his participants revealed that they were more likely to trust products bearing. Recognized certifications. [00:01:00] They viewed certified products as offering a higher value. And they were more willing to pay a premium for certified products. After coding and analyzing participant transcripts Holloway notes, that certifications quote. Enhanced brand loyalty by aligning with consumers ethical values. And beliefs. End quote. [00:01:20] While, certified products were associated with increased. Brand loyalty. Holloway's participants noted that lack of transparency could lead to skepticism. And diminished trust in brands with. Certifications. But there's an easy solution. transparency and clear communication remedy these issues before they arise. [00:01:39] Holloway's participants also emphasized stringent standards and third party verification as important factors. That enhanced their trust. [00:01:48] By sharing your story, you can connect with your guests over shared values. And spread awareness of sustainable wine operations like yours, that work. To protect the people and the planet. [00:01:58] And if your SIP Certified. You can add the SIP Certified logo to your wine labels for any wine made with at least 85% SIP. Certified fruit, whether that's estate or purchased. Check out the links in the show notes. To get your wine certified today. [00:02:13] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcript by Descript. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33584897

251: Vine SAP Analysis to Optimize Nutrition 11/07/2024

251: Vine SAP Analysis to Optimize Nutrition Monitoring vine nutrition is critical for pest and water stress resilience and the efficient production of quality grapes. Jenny Garley, Chief Science Officer at NEWAGE Laboratories discusses the differences between SAP analysis and tissue tests. SAP measures real time nutrient availability in vascular tissue. While tissue tests look at the nutrients stored in the leaf; some maybe available but most are not. Learn how SAP analysis can improve your nutrient management program, from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant nutrition. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: Monitoring grape vine nutrition is critical for pest and water, stress resilliance and the efficient production of quality grapes. Welcome to sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Where we bring. You the latest in science of research for the wine industry. [00:00:19] I'm Beth Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices. Experts growers and wine industry tools. Through both. In-field. And online education so that you can grow your business. Please. Raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:38] In today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with a long time. Sip certified vineyard and the first ever set certified winery speaks. Speaks with Jenny Garley chief science officer at new age. Laboratories. She discusses the differences between SAP analysis. Alesis and tissue testing. SAP measures real. Time, nutrient availability in the vascular tissue. While. Tissue tests. Look at nutrients stored in the leaf. Some may be available, but most are not. Learn how SAP. Analysis can improve your nutrient management program from reducing nitrogen inputs to managing trace elements for optimal plant. Nutrition. [00:01:21] Do you want to be more connected with the viticulture industry, but don't know where to start. Become. I'm a member of the vineyard team. Get access to the latest science-based. Practices experts, growers and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education so that you can grow your business. Visit vineyard team.org. And choose grower or business. Business. [00:01:43] To join the. Community of sustainable wine growers today now let's listen in [00:01:47] Craig Macmillan: our guest today is Jenny Garley. She is chief science officer at New Age Laboratories. And today we're going to talk about plant sap analysis and the idea of nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage. Welcome to the podcast, Jenny. [00:02:09] Jenny Garley: Thank you. Actually, thank you for having me back in your team. It's always lovely to speak with you guys and be a part of this. [00:02:19] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, we're glad you could come back. This is really great. I've heard about sap analysis in the past, a long time ago, and didn't really know anything about it because I was a dinosaur and when I was farming, I just did what I'd always done, what people told me to do, basically. That is, monitoring the nutritional status of vines is critical, obviously, for making fertilizer decisions, but also for making sure that they're happy and healthy. [00:02:39] You know, a vine that's in good balance is going to be resilient, going to tolerate different kinds of stresses, as well as basically be efficient. You know, it's going to produce a crop successfully. And with sustainability in mind in particular, our fertilizer decisions need to be directed. Now, traditionally, um, growers have used leaf tissue analysis of leaves and petioles, usually in the spring or at brazen. [00:03:03] Leaf sap analysis is another way of monitoring plant nutritional status. It's a very, very different way of going about it. What is the difference between the two methods? [00:03:10] Jenny Garley: I'm really glad you asked, because everybody asks this question, and it's very, very important, actually. Even though people use SAP and tissue sampling interchangeably, they are actually quite different from one another. So SAP measures the nutrient availability of the nutrients flowing in the vascular tissue, which is It's basically the xylem and phloem. [00:03:34] It provides a real time analysis of the nutrients that are available in the plant. And that is really one of the most important takeaways between sap and tissue, because tissue looks at the nutrients that are in the brick and mortar of the leaf that have gone into the leaf. Formation and development, the total nutrients, both available but mostly unavailable. [00:04:04] So those are huge differences there. Other differences is that tissue is taken from a singular aged leaf, just one. And then it's placed in a paper bag because that sample needs to be dehydrated. And then it needs to be ground, and then it needs to be ashed, and then it uses strong acid to form that analysis. [00:04:31] For SAP analysis, they only use linear pressure. No heat, no acid, no dehydration. Sap analysis, you need to sample a new yet fully developed leaf and an older yet functional leaf. And that is two points. And when you measure two points on a vine, that can give you mobility. And that is the second, uh, large difference between sap and tissue, is that one, sap gives you mobility. [00:05:04] And that it gives you available nutrients. Tissue gives you total nutrients from a singular age leaf. The way the analysis is done, there's heat, there's grinding, there's ash, and there's acid. What you lose in that is you lose, amongst many things, is sugar. No mobility. [00:05:27] Craig Macmillan: And when you're talking about BRICs, you're talking about carbohydrates that are in the SAP. So there's things that you can learn using SAP analysis that you wouldn't be able to learn using traditional, um, tissue analysis. [00:05:36] Jenny Garley: We're talking about leaf bricks, which is carbohydrates and soluble nutrients. When we're talking about bricks of the berry, of the grape, that's almost all sugar and quite different than a leaf brick. Thanks for bringing that up. [00:05:50] Craig Macmillan: So there's advantages then, because of the information that you get. What are the differences in terms of how you might interpret results from one to the other? Where, what I'm getting at is, let's say I've been doing traditional tissue analysis for, you know, ever. And then I go, yeah, the SAP analysis thing sounds pretty cool. [00:06:08] Am I just starting over? Is there any way I can connect the dots between the past and the present and make predictions about the future? [00:06:16] Jenny Garley: That's a good question. And we have people trying to do that all the time. Again, tissue is total nutrient analysis available and unavailable. SAP is what is available right now. So. Taking both tests, a lot of people do that, being able to equate them, that is different, they both give you different answers. [00:06:41] I wouldn't say starting over, I would just say giving more information, giving you another layer, a deeper understanding. Is how I would, I would put that I would just say you can only go so far with tissue and would you like to have a deeper understanding? Would you like to try to cut back on nitrogen? [00:07:03] Are you thinking that there could potentially be? An excess of nitrogen somewhere in your fertilizer program. SAP analysis can help you with that just as much as it can help you look at hidden hungers and or deficiencies. So if you want to talk about interpretation of SAP, we'll keep with the example of nitrogen since that's, um, the topic a lot. [00:07:28] Of today, nitrogen is highly flow mobile, and so when you see a physical deficiency on the vine, that means there's in nitrogen, that means there's been a prolonged nitrogen deficiency, and you see that yellowing in the older leaves, which is due to decreased chlorophyll synthesis. SOP analysis, taken early, can help you see those deficiencies in the report long before a physical symptom occurs. [00:08:01] Gives you time. SOP analysis gives you time. Some time, so the reason why SAP analysis can show you that is because again, we take a new yet fully functional leaf and an old yet viable leaf. So on a SAP report, when there is higher amounts of nitrogen in the new leaf as compared to the older leaf. That means those vines are trying to meet the greater demand in the new leaf. [00:08:30] They're not being given enough nitrogen, or they're not being able to take it up. So they're having to strip it out of the older leaves to meet that demand. And when that nitrogen moves out of the old leaf to the new leaf, that triggers a deficiency. That you can see on a report many times before that older leaves turn yellow. [00:08:53] Craig Macmillan: Which reminds me of something is the, what is the best timing to take samples for SAP analysis? [00:08:59] Jenny Garley: Again, great question. A lot of people like to think of sap, again, like tissue. And so they want to take just one or two samples. But sap is movement. It's flowing. It's nutrient uptake. Therefore, sap analysis is really made To be taken throughout the season and if you want a minimum amount if you're going to graph the nutrients over a season and really trying to Say cut back on nitrogen or say potassium. [00:09:33] You're going to need to have to graph that three points is the minimal amount of Data that you need to create a graph. So the minimum would be three I really like to say five. You can always cut back When the starting point usually for somebody that has never been involved in self analysis before would be a new leaf only. [00:09:59] And the reason I say that, you won't be able to see mobility, you will be able to see. cation and anion imbalances. And if you have a field with historical differences, um, than, than your other, than your other vineyards or problem areas, I highly recommend taking that about fifth leaf down on a brand new, in, in the springtime. [00:10:24] Because if you have a problem that you're trying to look at, Fighting it early is really the only thing that you can do. Waiting all the way until flower many times is, is too late to try to fight a deficiency and especially a toxicity. Really difficult to take the nutrients out of the plant. [00:10:46] Craig Macmillan: On the other end of the, uh, shoot, shall we say. The last fully functioning leaf, without like a Li Cor device or something like that, how can I pick which one of these older leaves is still really a functional leaf? And by that, do you mean in its full photosynthetic capacity? Because you've got what, it's about what, 40 days? [00:11:09] Um, is where the peak is? Something like that? Is it, are there visual signs? Is there something textural about it? Is there color about it that I can go, oh, I need to go five leaves up, or? Four leaves up, or whatever. [00:11:21] Jenny Garley: We provide pictures and protocols for taking a sap analysis, especially for vines. We have a beautiful picture of a vineyard, a vine, and where to take your new and your old leaf. Many times those older leaves are thicker. They're definitely darker in color than the new leaf, but we don't want to have a lot of crunchy edges. [00:11:45] And the reason I say that is because sap analysis, again, is a liquid, and if you send in leaves or somebody sends in leaves that looks like they've been raked up off the ground, that's essentially going to be a tissue test, not a sap analysis. That would be considered dead weight. We need about 90 to 100 grams per sample. [00:12:11] And if you. sent in a sample with a whole bunch of yellowing, crunchy leaves. That weight doesn't matter because we won't be able to extract any volume from it. So you'll need to go one to two up. That's why we say oldest yet viable leaf. We like to have some moisture in there. We need to be able to extract, um, a volume of sap from the vascular bundles. [00:12:40] So in a vineyard on a. Absolutely brand new, very healthy vineyard that the old yet viable leaf could be the oldest leaf, but on an older vineyard, maybe diseased, fighting something, having trouble taking up nutrients, maybe have some root issues, that oldest viable leaf might be the third up from the oldest leaf. [00:13:07] Because we do need a viable green leaf with moisture in it. [00:13:15] Craig Macmillan: Yeah, I'm kind of thinking about, um, the directions are good, and you have, uh, some resources to help. I'm also now thinking about, like, just touching, squeezing, breaking some of those older leaves. You can pop them off real easy. There's already an incision started, and you squeeze it, and there's nothing there. [00:13:29] And then other ones you can take, and they're nice and green, and you can rub them in your hands, and your hands turn green. You know, and you go, okay, that's probably the one that's gonna work. It's easy enough to do. So we're talking about nitrogen, but also you mentioned something else that made me think of something, and that is, what about other nutrients, including like, micronutrients? [00:13:44] Do those show up in SAP analysis, or is this just for nitrogen? [00:13:48] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. We have a whole trace element. area on a report. It goes in alphabetical order from aluminum, which is actually toxic. It's a heavy metal. We do provide that analysis for you going all the way down to zinc. The majority of trace elements are semi mobile to non mobile except molybdenum and nickel. [00:14:15] Those are mobile, but they're in very, very, very, very small quantities. So reading those on a SAP analysis is reading the parts per million. And not necessarily comparing the new to the old. [00:14:29] Craig Macmillan: So I can use this to make micronutrient decisions. You know, traditionally we take, um, Petio samples around Bloom set and then make decisions for applying some micros a month or so later, which has always been interesting to me because they need the micros earlier than that, but that's always been the way that was like, you just can't, well, okay, let's put it on there and hope for, hope for some, something next year, but that's the way we've always done it, it seems like we're kind of hoping that there'll be something there next year. [00:14:53] Now, SAP analysis, you had mentioned you can do quite early. So might I be able to do SAP analysis well before Bloom? Like you mentioned, like maybe once I have four leaves and I'm still in the elongation stage, the cluster, and get my readings and be able to make my micro decisions a little earlier. [00:15:10] Jenny Garley: Absolutely. Absolutely. And what you brought up is taking a traditional tissue test later after flower or even the veraison. You're right. You've missed the whole entire window of applying trace elements. Because trace elements, are so needed for photosynthesis and the plant really, really needs to photosynthesize, especially very early on to create energy for the vine, especially when they're trying to actually create leaves on that vine. [00:15:41] Trace elements are needed. Trace elements needed for enzymatic Actions and functions in the plant. And they're also basically there to help the macronutrients work better. All of those things need to happen very early on in the, in the plant. So yes, using SAP analysis to see how and if micronutrients are being taken up into the plant early on is vital in my opinion, [00:16:10] Craig Macmillan: That makes sense. Your lab has an interesting way of reporting Nitrogen because it takes different forms and you will see that in Tissue reports, but you have a whole different way of kind of expressing and interpreting them That's the nitrogen conversion efficiency percentage the nice percentage. I believe that's what you call it Tell us more about that. [00:16:32] I think I think it's an interesting concept [00:16:34] Jenny Garley: I have been talking about this for years and was doing the math for individual clients and companies. And I thought, you know, we should just put this on our report. Most people start on their SAP analysis path with nitrogen. There's a lot of interest in that. On a SAP analysis report, the lower the measurable N in nitrate and N in ammonium. [00:17:04] means that the plant taking up and converting the majority of nitrate and ammonium into amino acids and proteins. If there is high measurable nitrate or ammonium, the plant is having a conversion problem. And when the plant has a conversion problem, Before a grower goes and tries to add more nitrogen, they may want to figure out why their plants are unable to convert the nitrogen that the plants were already being given. [00:17:37] It's very, very important when sap analysis samples are taken that they are put in a cooler because in tissue, there's heat and grinding, which makes ammonium and nitrate volatilize. Which is why sap samples need to be kept cool in order for our NICE number to be the best it can be, to give the very best data. [00:18:06] When leaves get warm, you can no longer measure. Nitrate and ammonium. So, keeping those leaves cool and following those protocols, and I know I bring this up during nitrogen conversion, but you really do need to have cool leaves in order to have very, very good nitrate and ammonium numbers so that we can compare it to total N and give good, informative, nice percents. [00:18:32] Craig Macmillan: If I'm seeing and if I'm understanding this correctly if I have high Ammonium high nitrate that means we were not converting nitrogen into the forms that the plant needs, in terms of proteins, amino acids, things like that. Are there recommendations or practices or things that I might think about doing to influence that? [00:18:54] Jenny Garley: The first one, if the NICE number, the Nitrogen Conversion Efficiency percent, is low. So, low for grapes would be under 90. Grapes are actually fairly good at converting. If you were to look at corn or another crop, corn is actually very inefficient at converting. So, when we're talking about grapes, The nitrogen conversion efficiency percent really should be around 90 or above. [00:19:20] If it's not, and you're falling into the 80s, even getting into the 70s, the first thing I would look at is your total N, and is it excessive? If it's excessive, stop right there. Stop sign. Because the plants can only convert so much nitrogen in a 24 hour period, and if the plants are being overfed, that is number one on the list to Stop doing that practice because it's, it's creating poor conversion. [00:19:49] So that right there costs no more money for fertilizer. Just actually stop putting on nitrogen. And I would take another stop sample, get your report and see if. The new and the old leaves are actually, uh, very close together, very balanced. Because if you have a lot more nitrogen in that older leaf, that could be the problem for your nitrogen conversion right there. [00:20:14] Step two would be looking at your macronutrients that are involved. That would be sulfur, that would be magnesium. One people forget a lot is phosphorus. Phosphorus creates ATP. If you're putting a lot of nitrate in, your plants actually need more energy to convert nitrate into amino acids and proteins. [00:20:36] So that's another one to look at. The nitrogen conversion efficiency process actually means water. So looking at your water levels and are the vines getting enough water actually comes into play. One nutrient that people don't talk about a lot is calcium. Calcium is actually the master... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33475002

250: 4 Tips for a More Sustainable Winery | Marketing Tip Monday 10/28/2024

250: 4 Tips for a More Sustainable Winery | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] Beth Vukmanic: We. Often talk about sustainability in the vineyard, but that doesn't account for the whole picture. An important theme of sustainable wine production is the ability. To elevate the practices as a whole, from block to bottle. [00:00:12] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with sip certified. We know. That customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer. , form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice monthly micro podcasts. We'll help you share your dedication. to sustainable wine growing. [00:00:30] After months of careful cultivation in the vineyard. The grapes still have a lengthy journey ahead. It's no secret that the. The journey takes place in the winery, but what exactly does it take for [00:00:40] in this week's marketing tip. She shares four ways. Ways. That you. Can approve the sustainability at your winery. [00:00:47] Number one is to sanitize smarter. Safe cleaning and sanitation practices are essential in wine-making, . But the financial. And environmental impact of sanitation products can add up and lead. A sustainably minded business to look for better solutions. [00:01:03] Cambria periodically runs trials and explores. Floors alternative products to see if they can sanitize in a more eco. Eco-friendly way. [00:01:10] When testing paracidic. , acid. Abbreviated PAA an organic. Peroxide based sanitation, liquid, commonly used in food and beverage industries and health care facilities. Cambria's, his team had two questions. One, could they lower their solutions, concentration and maintain effectiveness. And two could they reuse a batch of the PAA solution more than once. [00:01:34] To answer the first question, they mixed up a range. Of PAA concentrations and got to sanitizing. When. They used ATP swabs to test the bacteria and yeast on. They're sanitized areas. They found that they could use less of the product. Product to get the same results. [00:01:50] The answer to their second question was also a yes, they found. And that they could use. Certain PAA concentrations up to three. Times with a hundred percent effectiveness. Samantha says. Says, researching and trying different products can lead to a cost. Cost benefit and possible switch to a more effective, less impactful. Product. [00:02:10] G Help them reduce. Both product and water while still maintaining a safe sanitation. Practice. [00:02:17] Tip number two is to recycle your lab. Plus. Plastics plastic is one of the hardest materials to dispose of. In an environmentally responsible way. Wineries know this well, because. Because commonly used lab plastics, can't be recycled in the normal stream. [00:02:32] Cambria works with Polycarbin, a platform. For recycling and . remanufacturing lab plastics Polycarbin takes used. Scientific plastics and re manufacturers them into more tubes. Pipette boxes and pipette tips. Their system creates. A closed loop, supply chain. That ensures that Cambria's has plastics don't end up in the landfill. [00:02:56] To make the deal even sweeter, Polycarbin tracking software. sends Cambria, a monthly report on the impact of the recycling practices. [00:03:05] In March of 2024. They recycled 24 kilograms of plastic reduced 144 kilograms of CO2 emissions and preserved 220 cubic meters of water. And that's only for one month. [00:03:18] But Cambria doesn't stop at recycling. Their lab supplies. They also work with TerraCycle, a recycling company that collects. And recycles materials that are not generally accepted in the traditional recycle. Recycling system. [00:03:32] For example. Example TerraCycle sends Cambria boxes for disposable coveralls. safety glasses and ear protection so that they can be sorted. Cleaned and sent it to third party partners to be produced into. Into usable forms. [00:03:46] Tip. Number three conduct, yearly audits. [00:03:50] While, responsible waste management is the goal. For any sustainably minded business, Samantha notes, you don't know how to improve if you don't know where you're starting from. Annual waste. Audits help. Cambria . Analyze their waste. And how it's being disposed. Samantha tells us they collect. They're trash and recycling separated out and see if things are being disposed. Of correctly and assess if staff training is needed. Keeping stock. Of the type and quantity of waste and where it's going is key to. Making decisions that have less impact on the environment. In fact. This is exactly how they transitioned to recycling their lab plastics. [00:04:27] Samantha tells us . While they're lightweight. There's a lot of it. We looked into how we could improve this and ended up finding. The plastics, recycling options. [00:04:37] And tip number four is to get involved. Jackson family wines. Cambria's has parent company take sustainability. To the next level with their program rooted for good a roadmap. Map to 2030. It's a 10-year sustainability and climate. Action plan that outlines the goals and initiatives designed to. Lead climate solutions. Create a positive social impact. And support the Jackson family's long-term vision for a sustainable. , future. [00:05:03] Part of. Their plan centers around social responsibility and their employees. Play a significant role through volunteerism. Every employee gets. To paid. Facility. Volunteer days per year. To head out and do good as a group. Plus one to two paid personal. , volunteer days to find other opportunities that align with their values. [00:05:24] They help their communities by volunteering for local events. Cleaning up trash at beaches and historical sites and much more. [00:05:31] Their staff have volunteered over 6,000. hours. That's the equivalent of one person working nearly three. Years of 40 hour work weeks. [00:05:40] With the business behind the team and supporting their. Community. It's no surprise that everyone really enjoys. . Community service days. [00:05:46] Let us know how you have made your winery more sustainable. [00:05:50] Listen up sip certified members offer your club members. . The chance to experience yours and other SIP certified brands in February. 2025. ReSIProcal February is an annual month. , long event that offers tasting rooms, the opportunity to increase their traffic. And connect with like-minded wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. . We're enrolling participants now just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip-2025 to. Get signed up. You can also find that link in the show notes. [00:06:23] Until next time. Time. This is sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcript by Descript. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33395282

249: Making it Easier to Use Satellite Data in Agriculture 10/17/2024

249: Making it Easier to Use Satellite Data in Agriculture NASA has connected data about the Earth’s surface since 1972. One of the first applications was for agriculture. Alyssa Whitcraft, Executive Director of NASA Acres grew up in the wine industry at her family’s property, Whitcraft Winery, located in Santa Barbara California. Her goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data to improve agriculture. Alyssa explains how different types of satellites including polar-orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop-specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can use these models to identify viral, fungal, bacterial, water, and nutrient stressors and forecast harvest. While this technology is being used in commodity crops today, there is a huge opportunity for specialty crops. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] [00:00:04] Beth Vukmanic: NASA has collected data about the earth surface since 1972, One of the first applications was for agriculture. Welcome to sustainable wine growing with the vineyard team, where we bring you the latest in science and research for the wine industry. I'm Beth. Vukmanic executive director. Since 1994 vineyard team has brought you the latest science-based practices, experts, growers, and wine industry tools through both in-field and online education, so that you can grow your business. Please raise a glass with us as we cheers to 30 years. [00:00:39] And today's podcast Craig Macmillan, critical resource manager at Niner wine estates with long time sip certified vineyard and the first ever sip certified winery. Speaks with Alyssa Woodcraft, executive director of NASA acres. She grew up in the wine industry at her family's property. Whitcraft winery located in Santa Barbara, California. [00:01:01] Alyssa's goal is to make it easier for people and organizations to use satellite data, to improve ag. Alissa explains how different types of satellites, including polar orbiting and geostationary collect information that can be calibrated against crop specific data to develop predictive models. Farmers can then use these models to identify viral, fungal bacteria, water, and nutrients stressors. And forecast harvest. While, this technology is being used in commodity crops today. There was huge opportunity for specialty crops. [00:01:35] Alyssa is involved in numerous organizations and projects. So I highly recommend that you visit our show notes. And check out her website. [00:01:43] If you want access to more viticulture research and technology from the world's top experts, then you won't want to miss the premier Winegrowing event of the year. The sustainable ag expo enjoy the perfect blend of in-person and online learning. Speak directly with national experts. Earn over 20 hours of continuing education and explore sustainable ag vendors. It all takes place November 11th through 13th, 2024 in San Luis Obispo, California. As a listener to this podcast. Make sure you use discount code podcast 24 at checkout to take $50 off of your ticket. Register [00:02:19] today at sustainableagexpo.org. Now let's listen [00:02:27] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Alyssa Whitcraft. She is Executive Director of NASA Acres, and we're going to talk about all kinds of exciting stuff that she's involved with, and I'll let her explain those. Thanks for being on the podcast, Alyssa. [00:02:43] Alyssa Whitcraft: Thank you for inviting me. [00:02:45] Craig Macmillan: You're involved in a whole bunch of different projects and consortiums and programs mostly around remote sensing and agriculture. [00:02:53] And you're excited about a number of different things in your field. What exactly is your field? I think it's a good place to start because I think a lot of people don't understand what it is. [00:03:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: I'm a geographer, which is basically the world's oldest discipline. We use the lens of space and place and location to understand the world. And knowing that things that are near to one another tend to have more in common than things that are far from one another. And similarly, we know that where you are in the world matters for all sorts of different things. And that's really the lens through which I see and understand the world. Specifically within geography, because geography is a very broad discipline, my expertise is in using satellite data and other Earth observations to understand what's happening across the world in principally agriculture. I've done work in the past in forestry as well. [00:03:47] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of things does this field have coming in the future? What are the things that you're most excited about in terms of all the different work that you're doing? [00:03:55] Alyssa Whitcraft: Would it be helpful if I gave a little bit of history, or is that too much info? [00:03:59] Craig Macmillan: . Please, please. [00:04:01] Alyssa Whitcraft: Sure. So a lot of people don't realize that satellite data has been collected of the Earth's surface since 1972. NASA launched its first satellite back then, and one of its first applications was agriculture. It was really for looking at global forecasting, production forecasting, and things like that in areas where We couldn't gather statistics like the USSR, for example. And so that was very early. [00:04:29] They thought, hey, we really need to understand what's happening with the global food production, global food supply. What kind of prices are we going to be able to get? Those were the very earliest experiments. And a lot of years have passed since then. It's 52 years now. That particular satellite was called Landsat. Well, it's called ERTS 1. It's been, renamed Landsat 1 in hindsight and they've just launched Landsat 9 two years ago. So we've really, we have a lot of series of it now with continuity of data for 52 years from that satellite, that mission alone. there's a huge plethora of other types of data though that are also collected. Landsat, for example, its characteristics are, it passes over the same place every 16 days at about 30 meter resolution. So 100 feet by 100 feet, about a football field, and then there's other satellites that pass over every day and they might have much coarser spatial resolution. So 250 meters by 250 meters, for example. And then there's also recently, because storage is cheap and the Internet is fast, there's a proliferation of these very fine spatial resolution satellites where you can tell almost down to the plant level. [00:05:38] Definitely tree level, what you're looking at, that's quite fine in resolution and still have some degree of rich spectral information. And what I mean when I say that is basically everything around us is reflecting light all the time or emitting light. And we only see a little tiny piece of it, the visible spectrum. [00:06:00] That's why it's called the visible. But there's so much richness, on both sides of the visible spectrum. So longer wavelengths and shorter wavelengths, and they tell us all kinds of things about what's going on with a surface. we see vegetation as green because that's what it's reflecting. But there's other things in near infrared that can tell us about vegetation health. Or sort of mid range infrared that can tell us about water stress, things like this. And so now we have more and more spectral information, more and more frequently and finer and finer spatial resolution. [00:06:35] So our ability to see a great deal of detail has come a really long way. And still just like kind of any instrument you use, your ability to do something useful with it is contingent upon its quality and also the quality of the kind of science that you use to interpret the data and turn it into information. [00:06:58] Craig Macmillan: What kinds of information is this data being turned into? And on what kinds of or agrosystems? [00:07:06] Alyssa Whitcraft: All over the world. There's two broad classes of satellites. One is called polar orbiting. So it's going around the poles and it returns to look at the same spot every, you know, it's governed by its orbit and a couple of other things. I said Landsat was 16 days, for example and others can be much more frequently or even longer. So that's one kind, polar orbiting. The other type is geostationary, which means that as the earth turns, it's always looking at the same spot. And that's what most of the sort of weather satellites are. So that's why you can get really like frequently every 15 minutes, like a radar image, for example. all that's to say, like a lot of the satellites we use are polar orbiting, and that means it's not biased toward only collecting data over the United States. [00:07:48] It's collecting data all over the world. In the past, because. storage was expensive. There wasn't very much storage capacity on the spacecrafts. You couldn't store it all. They used to have to select which images they were going to capture. So it might be passing over a surface, but it wouldn't turn the camera on. And only about, I want to say 2012, 2013 was when Landsat started acquiring almost every single opportunity. And not just capturing something like A third of the daylit scenes that could capture every day. so all that's to say, we now have like so much rich coverage the last 12 or so years with that kind of satellite. So that means like we're getting observations of the earth's surface where everywhere agriculture is grown at least every day, depending on the type of satellite you're talking about. And even for the finer resolution ones, you're getting it every day. 10 days, maybe once you are to 20 days once you account for cloud cover in a lot of areas. [00:08:44] Craig Macmillan: what kinds of decisions can people make regarding how they farm based on this kind of information? And my understanding is that this is public information, is that correct? [00:08:53] Alyssa Whitcraft: What I talked about was sort of where you can collect information. It's all over. It's not you know, biased toward any particular region per se. By virtue of that, it's not necessarily biased toward any one crop because it's collecting all those data. So those observations exist, but our ability to turn them into information is contingent upon how much we've studied that, that item. And, and how much what it, the light that it reflects in the satellite picks up on is related to whatever it is that we're trying to study. So that's to say if a satellite only collects visible information, then we're not going to be able to talk about sort of some of the items associated with chlorophyll content and like health of the plant. Or if it doesn't collect the long infrared or mid infrared you're going to miss out on information about water, things like that. [00:09:41] And that's just kind of a simplified answer to that piece. And so we're able to collect all kinds of variables. In my work, we've called them essential agriculture variables. they're basically core building blocks, variables that we can measure and infer about the earth based on satellite data about the state, what the change has been over time and what the forecast is to the future. [00:10:02] We can look at, Hey, what kind of crop is being cultivated here right now? We can see how has that changed over the last 10 years? We can look at, okay, this is the current condition. What's the forecast for harvest this year? different things like that. We can also do within season detection of certain stressors, biotic and abiotic stress. [00:10:22] So you know, can be viral, fungal, bacterial diseases water stress that can help with precision kind of irrigation scheduling. We can also look at you know, when you couple that with like short term weather forecasts, you can see, okay, there's going to be really high demand evaporative demand. And so we need to think about maybe irrigating or doing something in advance to prep the vegetation for that. You can also use it for nutrient applications. So, this is primarily in row crops so not really vineyards per se. But, we can take a look at what the current nutrient status is. Nitrogen, if it's nitrogen deficient, then you are only applying what it needs and not too much. Same goes with pesticides. You're not just doing blanket spraying. You can do early detection and mitigation. With nitrogen, you only apply how much is needed and where it's needed, which has important environmental benefits. It also helps the farmers sort of bottom line, not wasting money. And also in terms of a fertile excess fertilizer being applied and also not leaving money on the farm by not applying enough. It can be really helpful in kind of zeroing in on what intervention needs to be done and what you can prepare for at the end of the season. [00:11:32] Craig Macmillan: I'm just thinking through this, so you would have to have some crop specific, and maybe even region specific on the ground work in order to make the connection, the correlation between, I'm getting this reading, and then this is what's going on with the plants. [00:11:47] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yes. Yep. That's completely accurate. And I'm really glad you said it because there is a perspective on satellite data that it's magic, that you just take the image and you have the information. And that's just like not really how it works. Now we're getting more and more sophisticated models out there, but all models have to be trained on something. And just because I've trained it on a ton of corn in Iowa doesn't mean it's going to work on corn in Argentina. Like that's just not necessarily how these things work. some people call it ground truth. I prefer to call it training data, validation data. you know, in situ site data, things like that, comparison data. And the reason for that nuance is just to say that there is error in all measurement. So just because if your scale is calibrated wrong and you say, this is, this was my harvest, this was my yield, then that's not necessarily ground truthed see what I mean? So, and I think that that's an important point to make because we're trying to add an additional piece of measurement to the picture, right? [00:12:48] It can give you more frequent. more coverage deeper spectral information. It can a lot, but it's a piece, it's a component of a multi source decision support system. We say like garbage in garbage out on the remote sensing side of things. Our observations are very good, but you know, we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars of engineering in the sensors and the satellites to go up into space. So those are incredibly high quality and the space agencies who fly them they do a lot of expensive CalVal, it's called, so they go and they make sure that the instruments like, you know, The analogy in your kitchen would be you stick your thermometer in boiling water to make sure 212 Fahrenheit or 100 degrees Celsius is exactly what your thermometer is picking up, right? So we do the same thing with satellites. that's great for the reflectance or for the wavelengths, but that's not information. So then what we go out, we might take some tissue samples. To understand what's happening with nutrients with pest and disease stuff, some soil samples for that purpose. Or for some of the more like workhorse, what we've been doing with satellite data for a lot longer, those are more novel applications. The lot much longer is what's growing where where it is. What's the season. Like why is it. Kind of just at the early part, is it flowering, reproductive, is it toward harvest and then also yield. [00:14:09] And so we go out, we take crop cuts, we do things like that, then we calibrate our observations or our models against those data, and then we can run a predictive model that can tell us for the same site in another year, or more commonly you take it from that site and then generalize it. to where you have satellite data that are continuous, like so you have a whole an image, but you don't have any training data from this vineyard over here. So you take the training data from this vineyard and see if you can use it to identify what's happening in other vineyards. And then you assess, how well did I do off of another set of data that's from the ground. [00:14:46] Craig Macmillan: And so I would imagine that that kind of work is done extensively in agronomic crops, or what we might call staple crops, you know, rice, maize, soy, things like that, wheat. But you can do this with specialty crops as well. You mentioned vineyards. If there is interest and if there is funding, we can do this kind of work and bring vineyards into this this, this kind of process, this kind of science. [00:15:11] Alyssa Whitcraft: Yeah. I mean, you're spot on. Like I said earlier, the earliest applications of satellite data. Were in kind of global production forecasting with the reason being that wheat prices, for example, are incredibly correlated with conflict. So as wheat prices go up, you see more human conflict. And so these are the huge drivers of global trends in prices, in food security, all these kinds of things that are really important to track. And so the, you know, the early app applications were really for that type of crop and for very large scale forecasting in the sort of 80s, 90s was when you started to see some of the precision management. So on farm information but perhaps not as much as people hoped for in in this kind of satellite world, there was a lot of unsuccessful startups and, and things like that. I think the big reason for that is like, if you're going out and scouting your 10 acre vineyard, like you can generally walk it. It's not a big deal. You're not driving a combine through. My family's in the wine business and I grew up walking vineyards with my dad and taking tissue samples and taking fruit samples and doing things like, it was just a part of the day, you know, if you're farming 10, 000 acres, that's not viable. [00:16:30] And so you're, you have, million dollar combine to these days and things like that. That's something with autonomous driving, you can program a great deal of information into it. sort of like historically, there just wasn't necessarily the, like. The demand for what satellite data could offer, you know, it was focused on kind of like yield and nutrients and water. [00:16:49] There just wasn't the same use case in, in specialty crops. In a lot of ways, especially since some of them are growing greenhouses. So like, we're kind of out of luck with that. And so, yeah, whoops, but that things have just changed. We have better satellites now that collect more information more spectral information, higher spatial resolution, more frequently, we can process so much more data now, which means. [00:17:14] we can kind of just keep throwing more and more data at a model until it picks up some signal that we never could have anticipated. That's kind of the basis of machine learning or artificial intelligence is that you just keep going like feeding it until you see if something comes out. That also has its own problems. [00:17:31] Pretty funny fails AI. I think we've seen before the models get overtrained and it's very. clear that they don't work once they're over trained. They, they spit out like a baby with three hands AI image. And you're like, that's not, that's not right. Or I saw a matzah ball on a plate. It was like, rather than like a soup dumpling, it was like a tennis ball that was like matzah colored. I was like, that's not right... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33381137

248: Advancing Sustainability from the Inside | Marketing Tip Monday 10/14/2024

248: Advancing Sustainability from the Inside | Marketing Tip Monday [00:00:00] As a member of a sustainably minded ag business, you have the potential to shape the way people view our food system. [00:00:07] Welcome to marketing tip Monday with SIP Certified. We know that customers are looking for wines labeled as sustainable. While our longer-form episodes help you learn about the latest science and research for the wine industry. These twice-monthly micro podcasts will help you share your dedication to sustainable winegrowing. [00:00:27] There is a dramatic difference between how consumers and producers understand sustainability. While, both groups have positive perceptions of sustainable agriculture. The general public has a much more limited understanding of it and even ranked sustainability as one of their top four least understood terms. [00:00:48] Fostering a shared understanding from farm to table is key to turning sustainability into the norm. With that comes a healthier future for people and the planet. Part of the problem is that farmers themselves often don't have the time. Or the platform to communicate directly with consumers. But an educated and informed hospitality and sales team that's you can bridge the gap. And an easy way to start is by educating your team on what it means to be a sustainably minded business. [00:01:19] Tolosa winery in the Edna valley of San Luis Obispo, California created a unique way to both teach their team about sustainability and involve them in their efforts. This week's marketing tip tells their story. [00:01:33] With Tolosa is three PS groups. Employees were given the opportunity to experience sustainability firsthand. [00:01:40] Each person could join a group that focused on one of the three pillars of sustainability people, planet and prosperity. [00:01:47] Each of the groups would take their area of focus and work together to find ways to improve the businesses practices. [00:01:53] First off the people group. [00:01:55] This group focused on encouraging staff. Engagement safety communication and more. They looked into wage scales to ensure the staff was receiving fair pay And analyzed and improved safety procedures. [00:02:08] Second up is the planet group. [00:02:10] This group taught Tolosa's staff, new methods for recycling and composting, both at work and at home. When the company wanted to expand its solar field, the planet group researched soil profiles and growing conditions. On the company's property to identify the area that was least hospitable to vines. So it could be used for the expansion. [00:02:30] And thirdly, the prosperity group, [00:02:32] thanks to this group Tolosa, reduce their water by hundreds of thousands of gallons. Member's designed a water nozzle that eliminated the wineries open hose, water use. In fact, the nozzle is so good. It is now mandatory. Josh baker CEO says on average, this one small change resulted in some 380,000 gallons of water savings annually. [00:02:56] While, participation in the groups is always optional. Employees were enthusiastic to join Josh notes, that the level of staff involvement. Was a bit of a surprise. People chose to take the extra time to be a part of it. [00:03:09] Listen up SIP certified members offer your club members the chance to experience your and other SIP certified brands in February, 2025. ReSIProcal February is an annual month long event that offers tasting rooms. The opportunity to increase their traffic and connect with like-minded wine enthusiasts who value sustainability. We're enrolling participants now just go to sipcertified.org/join-resip-2025. To get signed up. You can also find that link in the show notes. [00:03:43] Until next time, this is sustainable. Winegrowing with the vineyard team. Nearly perfect transcription by Descript. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33282832

247: Can Area Wide Management Eradicate Vine Mealybug? 10/03/2024

247: Can Area Wide Management Eradicate Vine Mealybug? If you are dealing with vine mealybug in your vineyard, you are not alone. Kent Daane, Cooperative Extension Specialist at the University of California Berkley studies different types of mealybug populations across the globe. Kent covers organic and conventional strategies, ways to increase the presence of generalist and specialist natural predators, and the importance of establishing refugia for beneficials. His latest work focuses on area-wide management tactics. Looking to the European Grapevine Moth eradication program as an example, Kent sees an opportunity to decrease vine mealybug populations through neighborhood driven monitoring, trapping, coordinated sprays, and mating disruption. Resources: Vineyard Team Programs: - Donate Get More Subscribe wherever you listen so you never miss an episode on the latest science and research with the Sustainable Winegrowing Podcast. Since 1994, Vineyard Team has been your resource for workshops and field demonstrations, research, and events dedicated to the stewardship of our natural resources. Learn more at . Transcript [00:00:00] Craig Macmillan: Welcome to Sustainable Wine Growing with Vineyard Team. Our guest today is Kent Daane. He is a Cooperative Extension Specialist with the University of California, Berkeley, and he works primarily out of the Kearney Agricultural Research and Extension Center. And today we're going to talk about a number of topics. Thanks for being on the podcast, Kent. [00:00:17] Kent Daane: Craig, thanks. I'm happy to be here. [00:00:20] Craig Macmillan: Let's dive in on one pest that everybody's interested in, continuing to be interested in, and you may have some new insights or newer insights on this. Let's start with mealybug management. Kind of what's the state of the art in that topic right now? [00:00:33] Kent Daane: Yeah, that's been the number one question I've been getting for many, many years now. It is an invasive pest. We know it came in, probably being brought in by a grower down in Coachella Valley. It has since spread into the San Joaquin Valley, Central Coast area where you are, Napa Sonoma, and it's been found now in Oregon. Just like Napa, Oregon has attempted an eradication program. And probably just like Napa, most likely it's not going to work. It's a very, very difficult insect to kill 100%. I mean, I can come up with all kinds of different programs, soft programs, hard programs, expensive programs, inexpensive programs, where I can suppress that insect pest. It's very difficult to remove it from a vineyard. And that becomes important when you think about the kinds of damage we're worried about in Central Coast wine grapes. Pretty much anywhere where they're looking at grape quality. But especially in the cooler regions. So, this insect, this mealybug, is one of many mealybug species. that is a vector of grape leaf roll associated viruses. And this is the primary reason it grows to such high pest status. So for the most part, the growers can knock its levels down far enough that it's not in the grape clusters or it's rarely found in the grape clusters. That's more of an issue for table grape growers. It's a cosmetic pest. When you look at some of the Regions in the San Joaquin Valley where they're growing a lot of table grapes Kern, Tulare, Kings, Fresno, counties, there's enough heat accumulation and these grapes are harvested early enough in the season that they can still build up their Brix. They can still get a very good grape to market. Even when there's some vinely bug on the vine, they just don't tend to be as impacted by this leaf roll pathogen as our wine grapes. When you get into regions like San Luis Obispo, Napa, Monterey, Oregon, where they really are trying to hold those grapes on the vine for a longer period of time, trying to build up the bricks levels. That's where this. pathogen causes so much damage. [00:03:06] Craig Macmillan: most of our growers are already going to be familiar with this, but what kind of damage does the vine mealybug cause? It's so, so terrible. [00:03:12] Kent Daane: So the vine mealybug, besides being a vector of this pathogen, is also a direct pest of the grapevine. It can feed on the roots, on the trunk, on the leaves, and in the fruit. When this first hit California, we were working on it primarily as a San Joaquin Valley pest. growers that were putting on, you know, the products of the day dimethylate, lanate. If they were missing , the, target window where that pest was exposed, we would see thousands and thousands of mealybugs, not just per vine, but sometimes a thousand millibugs per leaf. It was causing defoliation. It was causing the berries to raisin on the vine. In South Africa, populations were getting so heavy. It was killing the vines themselves. How many people out there 20, 30 years ago were spraying so many neonics as we're saying today? We weren't doing that. now really, we were spraying for leaf hoppers as our number one pests followed by mites in case there was a flare up. It changed what we were doing in terms of pest management. In fact there's a group of us working internationally. Not just on the vine mealybug, but other mealybug species, because we've seen vine mealybug, grape mealybug, citrus mealybug, all becoming more problematic over the last decade. And we're, asking that question, why? What has gone on? And one of the thoughts we've got, not yet shown, but one idea is that we just sprayed so many of these, these newer chemicals that the mealybugs are developing resistance, The natural enemies are not, and we're seeing an escape of some of these mealybug species in now a, to them, a pesticide lessened environment. [00:05:10] Craig Macmillan: speaking of biological control, so this is an invasive pest, came from outside the U. S. That's the kinda the classical biological control problem. the pest comes, but its natural enemies don't come with it. there are some natural enemies of vine mealybug in the United States. [00:05:24] Kent Daane: Yes, they are, and I don't want to go too deep in the weeds on this, but this is new, very exciting to me. I did an importation program, that's a classic biocontrol program, where we go to the pests, origin, we look for natural enemies and we bring those back to the United States. Growers can't do that. It's got to go into quarantine. We have to study those natural enemies. Sometimes for years to make sure that they're not going to do any harm. The classic example people think about is I've got a problem with rats. And so I bring in a weasel, the weasel kills all the rats, and then starts going after my chickens. We don't do that anymore. Classic biocontrol is now much more modern. We've got all kinds of protective barriers against making a mistake. In fact, I think that we've gone a little bit too far. I think we're overly cautious. Bringing this back to the Vine melaybug, I imported material from Europe, from Israel, from Egypt, and from South Africa. We were finding mostly the same species in most of these different regions. The two most important species at that time were called Anagyrus pseudococci, which is The well known parasitoid that you can purchase from insectaries. The other one is Coxydoxinoides peregrinus, no common name on these insects. Both are established in California. When I did this work, we noticed a difference between the anagyrus near species Pseudococci that we were getting in Sicily and Spain with the material that we were getting that had already been established from Israel and what we're finding in northern Italy. Working with a taxonomist, Sergei Trapitsin he found some significant differences between these. And later on after both were imported in the United States determined that these were two species, one still Anagyrus pseudocoxi and one Anagyrus vladimiri. So sometimes you'll see insectaries selling Anagyrus vladimiri and you think, Oh, I want that. That's different. It is different, but both are established in California. We're actually going to do a followup study. now in collaboration with this international group to find out what we've got in California. I suspect we've got both. Now, why is this exciting? Because at the time we were doing this work, we felt like the parasites were different, and we felt that these different groups that we were importing, maybe one had co evolved with the citrus mealybug, And the other with the vine mealybug. And we had already done some work with the vine mealybug, molecular work, looking at its relationship to each other around the world. and their names are, scientific names would be citrus mealybug, planococcus citri. Vine mealybug, we knew as planococcus ficus, which means, Ficus tree, fig tree. And we were showing that this group was, they had an outlier and ours was the outlier. And then working with this international group, they said, look, back in the fifties, there was a planococcus vitis. And I think what you've got, what we've got on vines, is the vine mealybug. But not in Iran and Iraq at that time. And, and maybe in that Mediterranean region Israel, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Turkey the Mesopotamian region, I think is what it is. Maybe there are some parasites there that we didn't have. Certainly, my colleague in Egypt and more parasites than we were finding in Europe. We just weren't able to get them all to establish in colony in quarantine. So it opens up the window that, that maybe there's something still out there. At this point in time, I say in all the countries where vine mealybug is reported as a problem, that's most of Europe Mexico, South America South Africa. We have the best of those parasites. We just want to delve deeper into what are we seeing in Turkey? How does that match up with what we know is in Egypt? And I do have colleagues in Iran. It's just harder for me to go there. [00:10:09] Craig Macmillan: right, of course. so this makes me think, is it possible that we have mixed populations of these mealybugs in California on the same plant, so it's different areas? [00:10:17] Kent Daane: So that's the project we're working on with this international group. What we decided to do in a three part approach is to first find out what everyone's got. The assumption is that in South America, In the United States, North America, we have got single invasion events. Our guess is that it arrived in the U S in Coachella and Mexico at the same time. We're pretty sure that the population they have in Peru is from California Yeah, they were bringing nursery wood in and lo and behold, they found vine mealybug. We went down to look at a nomatode problem to be honest with some UC California researchers. And we found that they had some mite problems at the same mites that we've got in North American California. So they were probably not being very cautious in what they were importing. So we're assuming that South America's got this California group which came from Israel. We know Israel and Egypt have something very similar, but it's different than most of Europe. South Africa is similar to Portugal and Spain, which makes sense with the trade routes that were going on in the 1960s. What we're guessing is that The European groups, there probably are, there's reported failures of vine mealybug mating disruption in some European areas. And we think that probably is this other mealybug that is probably in Turkey. So it's all very exciting to me, kind of delving deeper into the weeds on this. But the first part of this international group, again, a great group of people, Europe, South America our first part is what do we all have? Our second part is what we're doing a grower survey that we actually sent to the vineyard team and they spread out to some growers as well. What are, what are growers using to control the mealybug? Because maybe with some of the, we find out what it is and maybe growers are working harder to control our vine mealybug than say that the fig millebug which appears to be what they've got in most of Europe. Remember when I started the foreign exploration when I was in Spain growers would tell me yeah we've got the vine millebug but it really is not much of a pest. Citrus millebug on vines is more of a pest. Well they probably have that fig mealybug but [00:13:01] Craig Macmillan: Ah, [00:13:01] Kent Daane: You know, taxonomically, it looked to us like the vine mealybug.And I hope I'm not throwing all these things out and it's confusing. So, second part, that is, the survey. What do you have and what are you using to control it? And if it matches up that, yeah, what we've got is the one that's more difficult, that fills in a lot of boxes. Third and fourth part are now looking at the natural controls. What parasites are you getting coming off of this? What parasites are in your region? And how do they respond to the pheromones that we know are out there? So if they're not, if they're responding to both citrus and vine, maybe that's an indication that it's this other group. If they're not responding at all, or weakly, yeah, we've, we've got three or more distinct species. And we can't tell them apart, but maybe the parasites can. [00:13:56] Craig Macmillan: this is kind of a practical question. hoW do you monitor parasitic wasps? They're tiny. They live in refugia. They then come out and plant their eggs in their host. that seems like a really hard thing to do. [00:14:10] Kent Daane: That's an absolute fantastic question. So let's look at that most common parasite, Antigyrus Pseudococci slash Vladimiri. So what we found over the years is that it does a great job on mealybugs that are exposed in the fruit, on the leaves, on the cane. By the end of the season, if you're not putting on a lot of contact chemicals, you're getting greater than 40 percent parasitism. Very easy to see, [00:14:43] Craig Macmillan: Right. [00:14:43] Kent Daane: doesn't do very well against the mealybugs under the bark, because it's got this searching behavior where it's got to get on top of the mealybug, determine how big it is, do I want to put a an egg that's not fertilized in that, which would be a male, and they need smaller mealybugs for that. Do I want to put an egg which is fertilized? In that, that will become a female parasite that needs larger host. [00:15:09] Craig Macmillan: the same insect, the same parasite has the ability to do either. [00:15:13] Kent Daane: Yes. [00:15:15] Craig Macmillan: Wow. [00:15:15] Kent Daane: again, this is really a neat subject and I hope I don't bore the audience too much. But, a lot of these parasites that become important for mealybugs they have this little sac, so you've got your oviduct going to your ovarioles, in the female. And right around the oviduct area, before it splits into the two ovarioles, you've got this little sac called the spermatheca. unlike humans, where the sperm goes in and Seeks out the eggs and fertilizes it. The sperm go in and the female parasite stores them in the spermatheca. And then as the eggs are mature and ready to go down, oviduct and get ready to be oviposited into the mealybug, the female decides to fertilize the egg or not fertilize it. And if it's fertilized, it becomes a female. If it's not fertilized, it becomes a male. And that allows her to determine what the host size is, because the females are bigger than the males. And so she will walk up and down. and size that mealybug and say that this, this mealybug is a good enough size that this is worthy for me to put a fertilized egg in and that will become a female. Or a second in store mealybug, she'll say, this really isn't that good of a mealybug host. So I'm going to put An unfertilized egg, and that will become a male. And that was, going back to this Anagyrus Vladimiri versus Pseudococci, that was the most important difference that we found in this Sicilian and Spanish group of Anagyrus, was that they would oviposit and put females in smaller hosts than the male. earlier parasite which probably evolved on the citrus mealybug. So going back to this question because I do go off on different tangents. How do you sample for these things? So it's really easy to find a mummified mealybug on a leaf. But remember what we're doing. We're spraying now a lot of Movento and we're spraying a lot of the Neonics regardless of its Admire, Platinum, or generic derivative. They're all good materials. and maybe you're putting on an IGR like a plot, again, all good materials, Assail, all good materials. What they tend to do is work really good against the mealy bug, which is exposed on the leaves. Our systemic materials are really good at going out to the leaves. Our contact materials, our IGRs, the neonics, that are contacts kill the mealybug that's exposed. All of these materials do less of a good job with the mealybug underneath the bark. we're not getting a true indication of what these parasites can do because we're killing the host that's the best location for them to attack. So that means to really find out what's going on, you got to strip bark oftentimes. So now you're looking at parasitism in that region of the vine that the parasite doesn't like to be. Now, if we add to this, this other good parasite, which is the coccidoxoenoides peregrinus, we really liked to bring this in because it attacks the very, very small stages of the mealybug, the first and the second instar. It's sometimes a small third, but really it's focused on the second instar. [00:19:05] Craig Macmillan: Got it. [00:19:06] Kent Daane: It's in California. You can find it, but it's really hard to find out what impact it's got because it will parasitize the mealybug and will cause the parasitized mealybug to die. to feel sick and to seek out some area for protection because the anagyrus if you see that mealybug parasitized on the leaf causes that mealybug to kind of glue itself down to the leaf You have to flip that thing to get it off the leaf. A mummy is a dead mealybug which sticks to the leaf. The coccydox anoides causes the mealybug to find a place of protection because it doesn't stick it to the leaf. So it often times goes to the trunk, or goes to the stem, and eventually falls off the vine, and will pupate down into the ground. And so to sample for that one, you have to collect them as first or second instars live, bring them back to the insectary, and rear them out to the parasite, which is just really a lot of work hard to do. so these things are far more difficult to do. Sample four, then going out and counting, you know, aphid parasites, which are just out there as little brown mummified aphids. [00:20:29] Craig Macmillan: it sounds like this would play a role in my timing of my insecticide applications, whether it's Spirotetramat or Neonic or One of the programs that I think is common is to have spirotetramat on top and have a myothiamethoxam soil applied. Does that sound right? [00:20:47] Kent Daane: Yeah, that sounds right. I mean, they're both good products and they're doing what they're supposed to do. they're killing the mealybug. And when the timing is right, they're getting out there before the mealybug. So as the mealybug is going out towards the leaves. You know, they're probably doing a better job than the parasite will do on its own. Now, if you are an organic grower and you can't use those materials, then timing does become a little bit more critical because you're putting on, oftentimes, organic materials every 10 to 14 days because they've got a shorter residual. So on those you may want to, you know, work your timing around to avoid to give it a window of opportunity some of these natural enemies. There you're looking on the leaf, you're looking for mummified mealybugs. You know, are, do I have some of these good natural enemies in the field? You're looking for the mealybug destroyer, or one of the other beetles. Green lancelings are also doing a pretty good... /episode/index/show/sustainablewinegrowing/id/33203682

Sustainable Winegrowing with Vineyard Team

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