EP40 - Examining AI Readiness in Canadian Marketing with Steve Mast

Why should Canadian marketers care about AI today? Join CMA CEO Alison Simpson as she sits down with Steve Mast, Co-Founder and Partner at Twenty44, to uncover fresh research on how ready (or not) Canada’s marketing community is for AI. Discover practical examples of AI in action, learn how to tackle governance and training gaps, and get a glimpse into the future of AI-driven marketing.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:08
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:10 - 00:00:50:02
Alison
In today's episode, we will share a new research on how the Canadian marketing community is preparing for and embracing AI. It's definitely one of the hottest topics in our profession, and we have new Canadian insights and data on how ready or not marketers are. We also have valuable learning on how they're activating the opportunities that AI represents. Joining me today is Steve Mast, the co-founder and partner of Twenty44, the company who led the research with the CMA.

00:00:50:04 - 00:01:12:09
Alison
Steve is a marketing leader and entrepreneur who built his career and a number of very successful businesses by focusing on innovation and helping transform organizations'  business models so that they can meet the needs and demands of today's economy. Steve didn't follow a traditional path. He was educated as an architect and began his career as a video game designer before joining Delvinia,

00:01:12:09 - 00:01:36:14
Alison
a market research and data collection company. Over the next 20 years, Steve built their digital marketing and product teams, launching three innovative new businesses before selling the businesses in 2021. Throughout his career, Steve has consistently given back to our profession, including serving on the CMA board for eight years, two as chair. So, Steve, thank you very much for all you do to give back to our profession as well.

00:01:36:16 - 00:01:56:21
Alison
Today, Steve and I are digging into the research findings to discuss how ready Canadian marketers are for AI. We'll share key learning from the study and talk about the AI adoption curve. We're also going to discuss the massive opportunity that AI represents for smart marketers to leverage, to lead, and to own AI in a bigger way across organizations.

00:01:56:23 - 00:01:58:08
Alison
Welcome, Steve.

00:01:58:10 - 00:02:04:04
Steve
Thank you, Alison, and thank you for that lovely introduction as well. And it is always a pleasure to spend time with you.

00:02:04:06 - 00:02:10:19
Alison
The feeling is very mutual. So we're going to start by having you share who participated in the study.

00:02:10:21 - 00:02:29:20
Steve
I think before we get into maybe the Who, maybe start a little bit with the how we did it, just to make sure everybody's clear in terms of the approach we took. So one of the things we really wanted to do was not only collect the data and get the sort of the statistical side of things, but also get a little sense of how people were really feeling.

00:02:29:20 - 00:02:45:23
Steve
So we really wanted to combine a bit of a quantitative and qualitative approach to this as well. The other thing we wanted to do too, because this is a subject around AI, we were like, well, let's use some of these fantastic AI-based tools to be able to collect the information and conduct the research as well.

00:02:46:00 - 00:03:11:21
Steve
And I'm proud to say it's a Canadian company called Nexxt and their platform, Inca, which we ended up using to actually collect the data as well. So the CMA marketing community, as normally did not disappoint in terms of providing us with some fantastic results and ideas as well. The good thing was we really aimed to get obviously a broad cross-section of the community, and we absolutely did that.

00:03:11:21 - 00:03:40:09
Steve
So there was kind of like about a 50/50 split between brands and service company, agencies as well. Really good representation across sort of companies. Size almost 50% were kind of that 1 to 250 employees, but a quarter of them that participated  worked at organizations that had 5000 plus employees. So really good representation. I'd also say things like age, job function, those kinds of things.

00:03:40:09 - 00:03:50:19
Steve
So surprisingly enough, too, we had very, very senior people, even some CMOs participated, as well as right down to kind of the manager level as well. So really good cross-section of people.

00:03:51:00 - 00:03:59:12
Alison
So I'd love to hear what were the top insights from the study and which ones did you expect and what were you really surprised by?

00:03:59:13 - 00:04:22:22
Steve
There was really kind of a couple things sort of jumped out and maybe they weren't necessarily surprises. They were probably more we kind of expected it. But there is one thing that I thought was quite interesting. And then another thing that I think is really important for us to be mindful of. So I think from an expectation perspective, marketers have always tended to be very early adopters to new technology.

00:04:22:22 - 00:04:45:15
Steve
I don't think that's any sort of surprise. You think of sort of the history of things like e-commerce or social media or mobile. Typically, marketers were sort of on the forefront of experimenting with those various different new technologies. In fact, about three quarters of the participants cited that they're using AI or generative AI on a weekly basis for business purposes.

00:04:45:17 - 00:05:13:13
Steve
But the one sort of caveat I would say about this is, of that three quarters of people, about 80% of them said they're using personal AI account, so they're not using the ones that are really provided to them by the organizations. But when we kind of dug a little bit deeper and we looked at factors like; how knowledgeable they are with generative AI, or do they understand the limitations or even how to apply it in the business, like apply it to specific areas within marketing?

00:05:13:15 - 00:05:33:22
Steve
Or I think even the most important thing, which I just touched on a little bit, is the ethical piece of it, the risks associated to it. I would say, surprisingly, it's a really average. The sort of, the community is, is quite sort of kind of below what I would have expected sort of knowledge workers to be. Now again, could be just we're very early days with this as well, and that could be part of it.

00:05:33:22 - 00:05:56:14
Steve
And there's still a steep learning curve. I'm not. Which leads me to my second point, which again, something that is not a big surprise and kind of expected. And marketers say over and over again, they are super time-strapped. They've got more channels, more different types of consumer groups to deal with, more types of technology to leverage. They're pushing out more content than ever before.

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:19:23
Steve
And by the way, the organization is also asking them to do more with less. So budgets are really strapped as well. So all of those things are putting pressure on them. So they're they're really looking for can AI be an unlock for them to really find those time saving opportunities? Overwhelmingly, even though they're using it a lot, they're really not seeing the benefit of this as of yet.

00:06:19:23 - 00:06:48:10
Steve
And and by the way, I wouldn't sort of take that, sort of paint that brush across everybody. I think it just depends on what you're doing. But I would say just as an overall, they're not really finding the benefits. And I think this really comes down to really two fundamental foundational issues that are really going on. So one - almost half, like 44% of the members, really did not know or were not clear what the organization's policy was.

00:06:48:11 - 00:07:11:02
Steve
So this is a governance challenge, right. And they're asking the questions around, the policy is vague and doesn't really specify on what restrictions, how do I use it. So it tends to be kind of again, sort of a sort of a one size fits all. And marketers have very unique needs. So there's a real challenge around sort of policy and governance with that as well.

00:07:11:04 - 00:07:31:06
Steve
The second thing, which I think is leading to this thing where they're really not seeing the benefits from it, is, again, a little more than half, about 56%, said they either not getting training or was really ineffective. And again, when they say that, it's not that they're not being maybe taught some prompt engineering or some basic elements around,

00:07:31:06 - 00:07:55:00
Steve
and by the way, CMA provides all kinds of great training around this, but they're not necessarily seeing the benefits of the training or they're not getting specific training around the areas that matter to them. So they're not really understanding the proficiency around how to use generative AI. They want to see results, right? They feel like this is a great mechanism or vehicle or new technology, but they're not seeing the benefits yet.

00:07:55:02 - 00:08:16:10
Alison
That's definitely fascinating, and I am very surprised that more of them are not seeing the benefits yet. And when you talked about the 44% that don't know what their company's guidelines and rules around leveraging it, obviously that's a huge gap that needs to be closed. But is it also contributing to why so many marketers are using their personal accounts instead of business accounts?

00:08:16:12 - 00:08:44:15
Steve
Yeah, this this really comes back to the the risk piece that I brought up before. So what's happening is organizations, like most new technologies, there tends to be either someone in the organization, there's either like a CEO, like a centre of excellence that's created around this, or there's a group that's been tasked with this. And often when it comes to these kinds of technologies, it tends to be sort of IT or technology that say, okay, we're going to take this on.

00:08:44:15 - 00:09:11:05
Steve
We're going to work with the various different business units and create policies and governance in this course. And also too, it's not, nobody's really sure exactly how it's going to affect marketing, HR or other business functions within an organization. So there was actually a really interesting story. I was meeting with a marketer who will remain nameless a couple of weeks ago, and they pointed out that, yeah, they're running into this all the time, but they figured out workarounds.

00:09:11:07 - 00:09:33:20
Steve
So in other words, they're sort of skirting around the policies or the restrictions that are in place because they know where they can actually be able to use it. So that idea that, you know, overall, people aren't seeing the benefits, but when you get into the specifics or people sort of go rogue a little bit, they start to see the real benefits of where it can fit into their specific job function,

00:09:33:20 - 00:09:49:23
Steve
the specific area. I mentioned to this individual when we were talking, I was like, do you understand the risks that you're putting an organization under? And they're like, sure. But coming back to that point number one, I only got so many hours in a day and so many people and budgets are tight. I need these kinds of tools.

00:09:49:23 - 00:09:57:15
Steve
So there is a there's a bit of a rub starting to happen here between governance and also the effective use of it as well.

00:09:57:17 - 00:10:18:00
Alison
Yeah. And there are lots of organizations and members that are in a highly-regulated industry. So that makes it even more challenging. But to the example that you highlight, people will find a workaround because they want the efficiencies and the benefits, and then they also, for their own continual development and to ensure they're staying relevant, they need to understand

00:10:18:00 - 00:10:32:16
Alison
Gen AI, and we can experiment to a point in our personal lives, but to be able to use it for business applications is going to help future-proof the marketers as well. So I absolutely understand the desire to find workarounds when you don't have clarity.

00:10:32:18 - 00:11:06:15
Steve
Yeah. I think just to add to that one last point, because this is actually, I think is a really important subject around understanding the risks associated to it or the ethical implications of using it, against what the policies are. So yes, there are risks associated by going rogue and finding workarounds, these kinds of things around it. What's also interesting about, again, you think back of when I mentioned social media a couple of times, we could, or IT could, potentially block certain things a lot easier than they're able to do with AI.

00:11:06:17 - 00:11:27:04
Steve
The other big thing with AI, too, and I'm not talking about kind of the standard models you see out there, whether it be ChatGPT or Gemini or those kinds of things. AI is being built into every application. So you may have a contract with somebody and it's already built inside of they're starting to use it or leverage it, but that's not been a sanctioned use of AI.

00:11:27:04 - 00:11:50:03
Steve
Or, what data are you uploading that to make that function actually work properly? So this idea of like being able to do the workarounds. Sure. But it's, it's almost a it's beyond a wild west at this point. It feels like IT has their work cut out trying to put some kind of corral around this sort of wild stallion that's that's been sort of let loose.

00:11:50:03 - 00:11:54:15
Steve
And it seems to be more challenging now than it has been in past technologies.

00:11:54:17 - 00:12:01:18
Alison
That's such a great call out. So how is the marketing community using it and how do they plan to leverage it in the future?

00:12:01:19 - 00:12:19:20
Steve
We sort of talked about marketers being early adopters. So they're looking across their entire supply chain and saying, you know what? We can see benefits across the board. So just a couple of quick examples. I worked in the market research industry for a long time. So I kind of know that industry fairly well. So I can kind of point at that.

00:12:19:22 - 00:12:39:19
Steve
And if you think of within the market research industry or the sort of supply chain that sort of brings it together from briefing to questionnaire development to survey programming to data collection, to analysis, to report all those kinds of pieces in between as well. There is a ton of areas where AI or generative AI could support that.

00:12:40:01 - 00:12:58:11
Steve
Questionnaire development would be a perfect sample of that, or even actually to the point of this study, we generated the questions, but then we deployed it using AI. And then it would then continue sort of asking the questions as it went along and did a lot of the initial analysis before sort of human eyes took a look at it as well.

00:12:58:11 - 00:13:21:01
Steve
So there are many examples within kind of market research. I'd say the other big area would be on the, call it content or concept development area as well. So early stage concepts, right, where you may have like hey, let's take a look at 14 ideas and then narrow it down to the top three. And maybe we'll go out and test those top three ideas.

00:13:21:01 - 00:13:45:17
Steve
So in that area I would say there's there's a lot of usage and appetite to use it as well, particularly in areas like video production. So we're working with a client right now that's actually trying to take long format, bring it into short format, or to cut up or to distribute, small video content across 14 different platforms out there.

00:13:45:19 - 00:14:07:05
Steve
It's a big task. So AI, particularly generative AI can do this at just a breakneck speed, and I can see a lot of benefits, and they can too. And they're starting to sort of leverage it. I think the areas that people are more, just a little more cautious around is a  probably better way to put it is when you start looking at asset development of actual end ad creative, those kinds of things.

00:14:07:05 - 00:14:28:19
Steve
I think there's still a lot of, sort of and I'm not talking about, hey, replicate this ad, and create a bunch of ads, you know, digital ads that are going to be distributed. I'm talking about like real brand creative. I think there's still a lot of questions around, it could maybe assist in parts of it, but actually producing the entire thing, I think, is something where there's a lot of questions around it.

00:14:28:21 - 00:14:53:20
Steve
The area that I think in terms of, from a future perspective, that really is being looked at, being used, it's the optimization of programs or campaigns in field. If you start to think back around, right message, right person, right time, mobile, social media, data, they kind of unlock that promise. But always the challenge has been us as humans.

00:14:53:21 - 00:15:13:20
Steve
So we've always been sort of in the way of being able to really scale that at any sort of meaningful way, because we can only look at things so quickly. So, whereas those technologies have given us the platforms and the vehicles to be able to do it and be able to be more precise about getting that right message to the right person,

00:15:13:22 - 00:15:37:11
Steve
AI holds that opportunity, especially because the human interface where you're telling it, I would like to optimize this program to then go after this specific audience, or I'd like to push harder on that audience, because there's a little piece of data that's coming out that it's like, you know what? It's really not teens, it's really pre-teens. So it's getting that really narrow message that we can go after.

00:15:37:13 - 00:15:51:22
Steve
So I think that's where AI and generative AI, in terms of the sort of the optimization, media optimization, campaign optimization could really benefit and get really get the right at the right person.

00:15:52:00 - 00:16:10:01
Alison
Those are great examples. There's also a broader business efficiency perspective, like when I think about online reviews and how much effort it took historically to pull and analyze and see the trends and themes out of that, AI, Gen AI can absolutely be such an accelerator on that as well.

00:16:10:03 - 00:16:33:09
Steve
So one of my business partners, she talks a lot about, that seems to be coming out of this data and also other organizations we're working with is, just do some of these, you know, like I want to call them administrative things, but can you just do some of these things that I, just back to that time thing, something I just do not have the capacity to do it because I really need to be able to do these other things as well.

00:16:33:09 - 00:17:00:00
Steve
So I think we tend to lean towards, you know, concepts and creative and look at the content it's creating. And then, you know, you often hear people say, I want to do the creative part of it. You know, like, I kind of want it to do my laundry, right? That's kind of what I want it to do. Right? So so in that case, what you're saying around, I would definitely say that's something particularly the the market community are definitely hungry for it to do more of as well.

00:17:00:02 - 00:17:21:01
Alison
Yeah. So easy to focus on a part of the job that we don't want to give up, instead of realizing that we all have parts of our jobs that we would love to have a smart assistant take on for us. The other powerful way I've seen it used as if you're going into a big presentation and you want to sort of validate the story you're telling or see what sort of tough questions you could face,

00:17:21:03 - 00:17:26:03
Alison
Gen AI has been a great ally for me in, in that sort of meeting preparation as well.

00:17:26:05 - 00:17:58:23
Steve
I also, to your point, use it for validating just about everything, creating things, even preparing for this, I was like, give me a draft based on these questions, and here's the data. You know, like it just immediately starts to pull things together very, very quickly. Again, I go into it, massage it, and make it my own. But I think you bring up a really interesting point, and we're starting to see this up here as well, both in this data, but more importantly, sort of in kind of deeper workshops with organizations is, there tends to be a lot of usage, I'll call it at the top.

00:17:59:01 - 00:18:20:11
Steve
As you start to move down through an organization, you're starting to see more cautious behaviour. Or maybe it's due to the policies, maybe it's due to a number of other things as well. But there tends to be a lot of interest from the top because they can access it, they can see the benefits. I think there's this desire or hungry that it's the unlock, it's the piece.

00:18:20:11 - 00:18:44:22
Steve
So it's it's always kind of getting pushed down, which actually you think about it, is totally this the opposite of when social media hit the market. So you had executives coming to, you know, the junior intern saying, what's this tweet thing? How do I post something on, you know, like it was the complete opposite. Now you have, I think, more senior people that are a) very comfortable with technology.

00:18:44:22 - 00:18:50:23
Steve
They've grown up with it, but they can see huge business benefits right across the organization.

00:18:51:01 - 00:19:13:22
Alison
I'm surprised that I thought the younger marketers, the more junior marketers would be embracing it to the same degree as us. So that's that's a good insight for me to make sure that our more senior people are taking the time to coach and make it safe and comfortable, and encourage our teams to be experimenting and understanding it for the benefit of the business, but also the benefit for their career development.

00:19:14:00 - 00:19:36:02
Steve
Yeah, and I'm probably stretching it here a little bit. But back to the 75% are using it and then 80% are using their personal accounts. But I think part of that 80% as well as maybe part of the policy, governance, those kind of things, but I think part of it too is like I'm using my personal account because I don't want them to know I'm using it, or I'm saving time or doing these things. Again,

00:19:36:04 - 00:19:40:08
Steve
I'm probably stretching a little bit on that one, but I'm probably close to being accurate.

00:19:40:10 - 00:19:49:20
Alison
It makes sense. It makes a ton of sense. Instead of saying, seeing it as it's great that I'm taking the initiative to leverage AI and benefit me and benefit the business.

00:19:49:22 - 00:19:50:20
Steve
Exactly.

00:19:50:22 - 00:19:55:04
Alison
So what are the risks and challenges that marketers see coming out of the research?

00:19:55:06 - 00:20:19:04
Steve
There's really two things. There's sort of like the risk. Part of it is kind of really the challenge. And when I say risk, I mean like, what are you using? How are you using it? What data are you uploading? Like there's there's a lot of challenges that face IT in organizations to figure out, you know, like how do we not contain it, but how do we really get the right policies in place to to really be able to deal with that? 

00:20:19:04 - 00:20:43:21
Steve
Again, like, I kind of go back to the, you know, you look at the data from the the Canadian Marketing Association members and almost half are not aware that there's an AI policy in place. Like that just sort of shocks me in some ways. In other ways, I'm like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But this really starts to come down to, obviously there's communication gaps or maybe these things are happening so quickly, like there's probably a bunch of reasons why that's happening.

00:20:43:21 - 00:21:02:10
Steve
But, so that's kind of on the risk side of things I think is is sort of well, kind of thought about and documented. The challenges, I think is a little more interesting. And it comes back to that kind of key question that sort of was bubbling up and filtering out, and there was lots of sort of side conversations in the qualitative piece.

00:21:02:12 - 00:21:28:20
Steve
And it's really what does it mean for the future of work? So, and I kind of encapsulate that to be a structure question. So, to me it's like, what does that marketing organization look like in the future? One of the things that I've noticed kind of going around speaking with various different CMOs and other business leaders, is there is a bit of a rise of the in-house agency.

00:21:28:22 - 00:21:53:09
Steve
And by the way, I don't think it ever went away per se. I think it's always been there, but there is a lot of appetite around what we can do inside the house. And the reason why that is, is because you look at the promise of things like the agentic movement around agents, right, where agents can work in collaboration with marketers and do a lot of the tasks that we just talked about in terms of use cases.

00:21:53:09 - 00:22:15:01
Steve
Right. So so this starts to bring up a lot of questions around what's the structure look like for the marketing organization of the future? I think that's going to be a huge challenge because when structure conversations come up, then we get back to that old age thing around, what's the role of marketers or what's the role of the marketing group within organization?

00:22:15:01 - 00:22:30:19
Steve
Which that conversation drives me crazy because I feel like that's been going on for decades. But I do think when you start bringing up structure and where they sit within your organization and how they benefit the organization, I think these are some key challenges that marketers are going to face going forward.

00:22:30:21 - 00:22:58:09
Alison
What we do has changed dramatically, will continue to change dramatically. So I share your frustration and that conversation never goes away. I think that's part of the reality that things are changing so quickly, that the core focus of what marketers do, the basics stay absolutely mission critical, but how they come to life, will continue to change and will continue to be having the structural conversations and the broader conversations as well.

00:22:58:11 - 00:23:06:19
Alison
So, Steve, I'd love you to share a bit about the AI adoption curve and what it's showing, as well as the learning that our listeners can benefit from.

00:23:06:19 - 00:23:27:15
Steve
To me, it's really a key pillar of future growth. But by the way, not just within organizations or brands, but but us as a country as a whole, as Canada as a whole. I mean, it comes up again and again and again that we need to start to look for ways that we can quickly, and by the way, do it in a responsible way.

00:23:27:15 - 00:24:04:14
Steve
I will emphasize that, but quickly start to figure out how we adopt to get past some of these barriers that we're facing. So this adoption piece, unlocking it, accelerating it, again in a safe way, it's not just a marketing challenge, but I would say marketers could potentially be a huge leader in this. The thing I think about, I adoption too, and some of the things that are in our way a little bit, you know, I've been saying this for a while and, you know, some of your listeners may disagree with me, but I really think AI has a PR problem.

00:24:04:16 - 00:24:33:19
Steve
And if you kind of think about how AI has been characterized for the better part of a century or two centuries, and why I say two centuries is because you go back to, you know, 1818 was when Frankenstein was written. Right? So and you think about, that was the first time when a story was penned, the first time I could think of a story that was penned that talked about, humans creating an artificial being.

00:24:33:19 - 00:25:04:10
Steve
And then we all kind of know the story. This being went rogue. And that sort of narrative has just, you know, permeated stories, movies. thank you Hollywood, and media. But it's easy to go to the doom and gloom side of things, sells clicks or sells stories. It sells movies. And so we quickly start bringing the psyche. And I think it's something that's deeply in our subconscious versus something that's actually real.

00:25:04:10 - 00:25:25:02
Steve
I think we can all see the benefits of using AI, but I think in the back of our mind, there's always this concern. When I'm at dinner parties, and people ask me my perspective on it. I kind of flip around, will you tell me your perspective? And then we'll we'll talk about it. I think that's good research practice. But that idea of like, oh, it's going to do this and it's going to do that.

00:25:25:02 - 00:25:51:06
Steve
And even in some of the universities and, you know, there's a cautiousness about how they integrate it with it. I feel like we're back at the calculator days. You can't bring a calculator to your test. It feels similar to this whole idea around evolution. So I think it's got a huge PR problem, I really do, which is another area where I think marketers could have a huge benefit of really trying to, you know, kind of lower the temperature, show the benefits.

00:25:51:06 - 00:26:12:14
Steve
This is not about taking jobs. This is a job creator. It's a growth creator. It's also not going to replace humans. It's going to augment humans in fantastic ways that we can't even imagine. But we need to start to really figure out how we're going to embrace that. There's this whole thing around AI adoption. We talk about it a lot with many of our clients.

00:26:12:14 - 00:26:32:08
Steve
If you think of kind of the adoption curve that you mentioned, right? And like a lot of technologies, there's this kind of What, Wow, Wait. so the What is more of the curiosity phase. We're always drawn to these things and marketers more than anybody because we're early adopters in technologies. They have this curious stage and that's the what phase.

00:26:32:10 - 00:26:55:06
Steve
Then there's like the Wow, right? The first time you key in a question and it responds very quickly, or you ask it to do a task and it does it very efficiently, like better than you've ever seen. And then all of a sudden it lies to you or it brings something back or produces something. I cannot seem to get it to create that image I'm asking it to create so, so then there's kind of this Wait sort of factor.

00:26:55:06 - 00:27:25:18
Steve
So you kind of go through this endless loop of sort of the What, Wow, Wait, function. And I think really the unlock of this, is we need to step back. We need to really, honestly assess where we're at. So it comes back to what I was saying before about the marketers usage is high, but knowledge, limitations, the application of it and the ethical concerns are quite low.

00:27:25:20 - 00:27:47:16
Steve
So I think to really get us on a path where we're really understanding the benefits and getting us on that, that sort of sharp incline where it's not just from a technical perspective or an infrastructure perspective, how we're going to integrate AI, but I think we need to ask ourselves, how people are going to integrate this, how the marketers are going to integrate this in their daily functions.

00:27:47:22 - 00:28:12:02
Steve
And that starts with an assessment around my knowledge, like, do I comprehend AI concepts, models, usage? Do I even know what an agent versus an assistant is? It's like some of these fundamental things you think, oh, you just do a little reading and you'll figure it out. Or maybe ask ChatGPT and you'll figure it out. But even the limitations, what's its capabilities, what it can and can't do, more importantly, what its weaknesses are.

00:28:12:04 - 00:28:32:05
Steve
Application. We just talked about a whole bunch of use cases that workflows. That's digging in and really breaking down what's the workflow of content creation or maybe it's market research or whatever. What is that? And where does AI fit within? And then you can really start to figure out the applications. And we talked at length about the ethical side of things and the risk side of things.

00:28:32:05 - 00:28:52:05
Steve
But it's imperative that we all understand when you upload a document, what's really happening here. Right? And I think there's a lot of questions around that. And it exposes a lot of risks side of things. So I believe in order to get us out of this endless sort of What, Wow, Wait that we're in and get us on a better glide path,

00:28:52:06 - 00:28:58:02
Steve
we really need to have this honest look at knowledge, limitations, applications and ethics.

00:28:58:04 - 00:29:10:21
Alison
I also think in the, because I've gone through the What, Wow, Wait. And for me when I can't get it to do what I was hoping to get it to do, and you get to the Wait stage, it's like part of that waiting is me stepping back and say, okay, so what am I doing wrong, what am I?

00:29:10:21 - 00:29:20:15
Alison
I need to learn and evolve my approach because if I'm not getting what I want out of any tool, I have a role to play in why it's not working, so it can help deepen your understanding too.

00:29:20:17 - 00:29:22:06
Steve
That's a really good way of thinking about it.

00:29:22:08 - 00:29:43:23
Alison
Now, there's no doubt that there's a real opportunity for marketers to leverage, lead and own AI in a bigger way across the full organization. I certainly have been around executive suites as the CMO, where when any new technology comes, all the eyes go to the CMO with an expectation that we're going to understand it and figure it out faster, which can be intimidating, let's be honest.

00:29:43:23 - 00:30:04:05
Alison
But it's also a huge opportunity to show how we can benefit the broader organization and the important role that marketers have, not just from a marketing perspective, but from a broader business perspective. So what would you recommend CMOs do to ensure that they're really leveraging and benefiting from this opportunity?

00:30:04:07 - 00:30:27:17
Steve
If you think about the future structure, the future world, however you want to define it, is very much so around this human AI collaboration, however you want to call it. It's often getting characterized as we are going to live in a hybrid intelligent workforce. And again, it's a bit of a mouthful and I'm sure that's going to go away and someone's going to coin some other term.

00:30:27:17 - 00:30:53:06
Steve
To me, it's just simply about human-AI collaboration. We are going to live in a world like that. And I think the important thing about that is, is that this is a people-led transformation, okay? This is not an IT-led transformation. And if there's IT people out there, they're listening to this. My apologies. I think IT has a huge role in all of this.

00:30:53:08 - 00:31:20:11
Steve
But this is a people-led. that I was on a call last week with some folks from Silicon Valley. And we were talking about this very subject. And these are ex-Microsoft people, like 30 years of Microsoft that I was talking to, like super brilliant, smart people that it was incredible to listen to them. But we got to talking about the subject and one of them said it's like, do you think Excel was adopted because IT said, everybody start using Excel?

00:31:20:11 - 00:31:54:23
Steve
No, it came from the finance department saying there's got to be a better way. I've seen this. Can we use this? So back to the whole thing around, it's getting very domain-specific. So in the marketing function there are agents, assistants, there's applications out there that have deeply-embedded AI that are specific to the marketing function. And it's impossible honestly that IT or even a centre of excellence could understand all the possibilities across organizations. And then how it's going to be adopted inside organizations

00:31:54:23 - 00:31:57:18
Steve
and really led. It's going to be people-led. 

00:31:57:18 - 00:32:08:08
Alison
Now what do you think is needed, and did the research point out any recommendations or ways that we can get people and organizations more comfortable with AI and what it's capable of?

00:32:08:10 - 00:32:30:06
Steve
I would say not just training, like I said, around, hey, let's teach me how to be, you know, a better prompt engineer. It's practical examples. It's starting to bubble up and not hide in the shadows. Like, when I was speaking to that marketer a couple of weeks ago and hearing about the ways they're using AI, I'm like, this is fantastic.

00:32:30:10 - 00:32:48:01
Steve
You should bring this up. They can't because they've gone rogue. So there's these wonderful examples inside of organizations, and I bet every one of your listeners can probably go, yeah, I've used it in that way, but I haven't told anybody. Right. Or you just hear, you just mentioned two different ways that you're using it, which I thought were fantastic.

00:32:48:01 - 00:33:13:19
Steve
Right? So getting these practical ways that we can leverage it, and and communicating across the organization, you know, maybe that's training, maybe that's just better communication. I don't know what you want to call it, but that, I often refer to this as practical and tactical, which sounds odd because I, I always think like AI and these new tech, it's a big strategic problem.

00:33:13:21 - 00:33:24:12
Steve
Maybe this is just a real practical problem we need to start to address and more of these kinds of things you can put in front of people, the more they can see ways they can adopt this great new technology.

00:33:24:14 - 00:33:40:21
Alison
It's also a link to the earlier comment around organizations need to have policies and guidance in place. The reality is, without that, people are going rogue. So you're not protecting the organization even though they might think they're protecting it. So they just need to get ahead of that.

00:33:40:23 - 00:34:06:20
Steve
Yeah. And again, I think that like social media like these other technologies in the past, I think one of the challenges is being able to really communicate that effectively. And by the way, as soon as you get it out, there's like three new things like, you know, like the idea that we went from assistant to agents and that was kind of like people were thinking, oh, it's kind of like maybe 3 to 5 years out kind of thing.

00:34:06:20 - 00:34:28:08
Steve
And now we're we're right here in the middle of 2025, and it's already been rolled out all over the place. I think we're really close to to move towards sort of general intelligence, which is a whole other sort of step function in itself and even understanding what that means. But that was 5 to 10. Now they're talking, you know, 1 to 3.

00:34:28:08 - 00:34:42:09
Steve
So these things are happening very quickly. That started very early on in my career where I was doing that. And I don't consider myself a fantastic networker, but it is definitely proven to be a real benefit in my career.

00:34:42:11 - 00:34:55:12
Alison
That's a great call out. Also feeds into the point that in building a policy, it needs to almost be more principles-based than trying to like, oh, regimented detail, absolutely every aspect of it. Because to your point, by the time you write the policy, it's going to be out of date.

00:34:55:14 - 00:35:16:10
Steve
Super smart comment, because that was one of the areas that your members brought up, that it's more principle-based versus, you know, hardcore guidelines. So that comes back to sort of kind of, again, give me some rails for sure. But you know, let me have my own off turns and let me, you know, use my own sort of capabilities.

00:35:16:10 - 00:35:37:17
Steve
So it becomes that fundamental principle-based. The only thing that I think I challenge a little bit on that is that it becomes too, too squishy and it becomes too, you know, vague. And that's another point that came up. In fact, I think it was it was over a third were saying like the vagueness of it is one of the concerns as well.

00:35:37:17 - 00:35:55:01
Steve
So, so, you know, like it's a tough one to sort of go, okay, here's your rails, don't move out of your rails, but go do your job, right, and be effective. And then the other part of it is like, okay, we're just going to you know, all be really squishy about this. So it's a challenge to get it right.

00:35:55:01 - 00:36:00:18
Steve
And by the way, I don't think there's any organization we've worked with, every one of them have been a little bit different.

00:36:00:20 - 00:36:11:11
Alison
The reality is any policies around AI today and for the foreseeable future, it's a bit like trying to nail Jell-O to the wall. Like, you know, you need to try, but you also need to know you're going to be doing it repeatedly. 

00:36:11:13 - 00:36:12:22
Steve
Yes. Agreed.

00:36:13:00 - 00:36:39:08
Alison
So, Steve, this has been a great conversation. Before I let you go, I would love to do a little bit of a pivot. You've got an absolutely enviable and long-standing career in research. You've been an incredibly successful entrepreneur. You've also been a leader within a large multinational. So before we close out today's discussion, what's the top advice that you would give to our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps, especially if they might have some entrepreneurial ambitions?

00:36:39:10 - 00:37:02:04
Steve
Well, first of all, thank you for the incredibly kind words. The first thing really is don't be afraid of the boring. And for years, especially when you're in the marketing or technology, and the subject we just talk about, like this is an incredibly kind of, what I would define is a cool area to be working in, and it's fascinating and how it's working, it's cutting edge.

00:37:02:04 - 00:37:23:20
Steve
It's there's, you know, just so many super interesting rabbit holes that you can run down with this as well. But I will say, if you're building a business or even if you're starting out in business, don't be afraid of the boring. We built and ran a survey business, a very successful one, and then sold that business in 2021, as you mentioned early on.

00:37:23:21 - 00:37:40:23
Steve
And when people ask me, what did you do? Like how did you build the business and it's like, yeah, we we would find, you know, moms in, you know, Saskatchewan that chewed bubble gum and had three kids and wanted to buy a tricycle for their kid. And they're like, and then what? Then when we'd ask them questions. And then what?

00:37:41:01 - 00:38:04:04
Steve
That's, that's it. And it was always one of these things where it's like, I always sort of saw you as like an innovator in technology. And yeah, but it was a great way for the business to make money and the stability that came out of that. Yes, it was a boring business model, but it was easy to understand, easy to communicate, and we were able to build a really strong foundation on top of that.

00:38:04:10 - 00:38:29:11
Steve
Right? So don't be afraid of the boring. A second thing would be always be working on new ways to create value. And what I mean by that, on two fronts. One, for sure the business. Right? So there is lots of ways that you should always be asking yourself inside of the business, not what the business has done for me, but what I can do for the business.

00:38:29:12 - 00:38:50:09
Steve
How can I continue to create value? The other really important factor of that too, is, your own personal value creation. The last organization that I was at, we had a value creation agenda we created and it was all about our products and services and things. So how are we going to add value to the shareholders? And you know, it's a very sophisticated way of looking at things.

00:38:50:09 - 00:39:14:20
Steve
And actually I took that and I applied that, in fact, my son did the same thing too, where applied it to creating his own value. In other words, what are the things that I need to learn more of? Training. What are the things I need to to push myself into in terms of meeting other people as well? So all of that helps create his own personal value, and at the same time, it's going to create value for the business as well.

00:39:14:20 - 00:39:38:10
Steve
So always be working on new ways to create value. And then the last one as well is, this idea of you know, like I'm sure people are familiar with the network effects. Well, I believe in building your personal network effect. And that's really if you think of yourself as a platform, as a connector, because that's really what platform businesses do.

00:39:38:10 - 00:40:03:21
Steve
They connect one side to the other side. If you do that and genuinely do that and do it with honesty and integrity, that always comes back in good ways. So don't always be looking for the opportunity where it's going to benefit you in some direct way. Maybe you can connect somebody with somebody else and that's going to benefit them. I guarantee those will come back.

00:40:03:21 - 00:40:10:07
Steve
And that's really about building your own personal network effect. So those are the three things.

00:40:10:09 - 00:40:29:22
Alison
That's absolutely outstanding advice. I love the level of personal accountability in it as well. We're ultimately all in control of our careers and our success. And the network effect is my personal favourite. And the fact that you're building it two ways. And it's not always about reach out when you need something. You you need to give in order to take.

00:40:30:00 - 00:40:45:16
Steve
I would I would just add one other thing to that as well on that. And part of it is just building your network as well. And, you know, I had the pleasure of attending your CMA talent day and sat with a lot of young marketers. And and by the way, I think we're in really good hands with the future.

00:40:45:16 - 00:41:10:11
Steve
There is a really smart, keen, fascinating, well more-versed of where the future holds and then myself. But I would say what's really great is their networking ability is fantastic. And I made a general rule of myself years ago when we were building the business, that I would meet three new people every week, not talk to three people, but meet three new people.

00:41:10:11 - 00:41:40:16
Steve
And there's never been a time where there's enough mechanisms and channels, like the CMA, and all these different events to get out, because you never, ever know where maybe you just connect two people, or maybe one of those connections ends up unlocking a career opportunity that you'll never look back. I mean, that started very early on in my career, where I was doing that for a long time, and I don't consider myself a fantastic networker, but it is definitely, it's definitely proven to be a benefit in my career.

00:41:40:18 - 00:41:52:21
Alison
Absolutely. Well, Steve, I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today and all of the great findings that you've shared with us. I also want to thank you for being such a great partner and for all that you do to give back to our profession. I hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:41:52:23 - 00:41:55:02
Steve
Thank you.

00:41:55:04 - 00:42:07:19
Presenter
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