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EP74 - Co-conspirators For A Half-decade With Adrian Fuoco And Mike Sutton
08/04/2026
EP74 - Co-conspirators For A Half-decade With Adrian Fuoco And Mike Sutton
The campaign that delivered a 20 per cent sales boost didn't start with a creative brief, it started with a casual comment. In Episode 74 of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson joins Pizza Pizza CMO Adrian Fuoco and Zulu Alpha Kilo President and CEO Mike Sutton to unpack the half-decade partnership behind "Bipartisan Wings." The collaboration drove a 40 per cent jump in wing sales, a 2025 CMA Best of the Best award and a CEO crediting marketing for brand growth on BNN Bloomberg. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23.840 — 00:02:32.250 · Alison Great marketing doesn't happen in boardrooms filled with endless PowerPoints and bloated processes. It happens when brilliant clients and creative partners trust each other enough to move fast, take risks and chase cultural moments that others often miss. My guests today are a perfect example. Adrian Fuoco, Chief Marketing Officer at Pizza Pizza Limited, and Mike Sutton, President and CEO of Zulu Alpha Kilo, helped build one of Canada's most successful client agency partnerships over the last five years. They've created campaigns like "Bipartisan Wings" and "Reverse Tariffs" that don't just win awards, they drive significant business results. Since joining as VP of Marketing in January 2020 and being promoted to CMO in June 2024, Pizza Pizza has really transformed under Adrian's leadership, from a traditional, value-focused QSR into one of Canada's most culturally relevant brands. The results really speak for themselves. Pizza Pizza was named Strategies magazine's Brand of the Year in 2023, won two gold CMA Awards in 2023 and 2025, and their "Bipartisan Wings" campaign closed the show, winning top honours as best of the best for 2025. Most impressively, Pizza Pizza's CEO cited on BNN Bloomberg that marketing initiatives drove growth. Words that every marketer and CMO aspires to hear. Mike Sutton has led Zulu Alpha Kilo as CEO since April 2021, steering the agency to become one of the world's most awarded independent shops. Under his leadership, the agency has expanded to Vancouver and New York, was named AD Age's A-list agency standout in March and achieved platinum status in Canada's Best Managed Companies in 2024. Together, they've proven that when you combine strategic agility, mutual trust and a willingness to say, hey, I'm not above going to jail for this idea, you can create marketing that cuts through in one of Canada's most competitive categories. Their "Bipartisan Wings" campaign drove a 40% jump in wing sales overall and a 47% spike on election night, while the "Reverse Tariffs" campaign delivered a 20% sales boost. Welcome, Adrian and Mike, I am thrilled to have you both here to pull back the curtain on how this partnership really works. 00:02:32.290 — 00:02:33.450 · Adrian Thanks for having us, Alison. 00:02:33.490 — 00:02:34.530 · Mike Thanks, Alison. 00:02:34.570 — 00:02:58.610 · Alison Adrian and Mike, I'm excited to have you here for a bunch of reasons. Getting into the significant business results you're driving is certainly high on the list. But the other part is, despite having hosted this podcast for a few years now, you're the first time that I've had a CMO and their agency CEO join me together. We're going to start with the basics. How did this partnership begin, and what made you both believe this could be something special> Adrian, why don't you kick things off? 00:02:58.650 — 00:04:38.700 · Adrian It was a really fun experience kicking off the partnership, and I think it was a long coming. So, you know, I'd say first, Alison, just in terms of what I thought could be special was I was excited to work on the Pizza Pizza brand. And that brand, you know, Mike and I both grew up in Ontario. And if you grow up here, Pizza Pizza was around your entire life, basically in one way or another. And I always got a kick out of some of the marketing that Pizza Pizza had done over the years and some of the wild sports promotions. And I remember one time where you could, you know, they would send you a VHS tape along with your pizza at Christmas time or movies and all kinds of fun stuff. And so I was just generally excited to be able to take a look at that brand and sort of understand how had they achieved all of that. And when I got to Pizza Pizza, I realized that a lot of that had just been achieved, you know, in house with a small, scrappy group of people who had done really amazing stuff. But what intrigued me was, you know, wow, what would happen if you were able to hand, you know, partner with one of the top creative shops and strategic agencies in Canada? Where could you take it beyond where it had already gone? So that was that was the part for me that was exciting. And then in terms of how the partnership began, it was really just a phone call. I knew Mike and Zach over the years working in the industry, but we hadn't done too much together. And so I just thought, wow, this would be really fun. This is a top tier crew, and if they'd be at all interested in partnering with us, we could probably really do some amazing work. And also that we would probably see some great results, which of course was important as well. And we were able to achieve all of that, I must say. And here we are. 00:04:38.740 — 00:04:41.020 · Alison So, Mike, what would you add from an agency perspective? 00:04:41.060 — 00:05:36.460 · Mike From an agency perspective, one of the things I'd say, as I sort of reflect back on those early conversations with Adrian, was thinking about like, great partnerships are grounded in a shared ambition. And so the thing that was immediately clear is that the ambition that Adrian had, what he wanted to do with marketing, really lined up well with the type of work that we like to do. So that was certainly business impact, but also about sort of mutual belief in the type of work that we can do together. So there was just this shared ambition from the very beginning. It isn't about one side presenting and one side approving to real shared ambition in terms of the type of work that we wanted to do together. And I like to think of it as us being co-conspirators. Yes, it's a client agency relationship, but really we're co-conspirators in trying to do amazing work for this really iconic Canadian brand. 00:05:36.500 — 00:05:56.020 · Alison One of the things that really struck me about your partnership is that the core team on both sides has remained intact for five years. And maybe part of that is because you are co-conspirators. But in an industry known for turnover, that really is remarkable, so I'd love to share what's contributed to that stability, and why do you think it matters for the work that you produce? 00:05:56.060 — 00:06:58.670 · Mike Yeah. I mean, for those listening who may not know, you talk about turnover, the last stat I saw was around 25%. Like, just think about that for a minute. Where imagine a world where you have 25% of your staff turning over year over year. The last few years we've hovered around 10% ,kind of thing. So we're not up there. But you're right, the industry has a significant amount of turnover. So what do I attribute to, like, I think clarity and candour is a big part of what works in the partnership. And then yes to consistency on the team. So we absolutely have that over the duration of the five years we've been working together. But the other important piece is like adding fresh energy throughout the partnership as well. So to me, that's always the perfect balance, is that you want that consistent core team, but then you always want to have fresh energy coming in and bringing fresh ideas to interpret the brand platform as we have it. And I think that's how we keep things fresh. And that's a big part of my job in making sure that the right people are coming onto the business at the right time. 00:06:59.030 — 00:07:28.910 · Alison That's such an important balance. And if our listeners weren't enticed earlier, they're certainly going to be enticed by how to get from 25% turnover down to 10% turnover. Now, Adrian, you mentioned when you joined Pizza Pizza that there was a very well-established internal creative department handling 99% of the work, and then you brought in Zulu as an agency partner. Now, let's be honest, that could have been a disaster. Egos clashing, turf wars, a real mess. Instead, it's become a real model of collaboration. So how did you navigate that potentially explosive situation? 00:07:28.950 — 00:09:11.880 · Adrian Yes. Um, well, I think personally, I believe in the model where you could have both an internal group and an agency partner and that that could actually create a system versus sort of competition. And so there'd be some things that one group could do and some things the other group could do. And what I found was, you know, the internal team, yeah, someone new comes in, and you could be concerned. What are they going to do? What about my job security and all the things that we've built? And so first thing I found was just to give them confidence that, no, I think that, you know, the leadership believes in you, and the leadership thinks that what you're doing is of great value. But let's take a look at the entire needs of the brand and let's have an honest conversation about, you know, if we were to do more brand equity building marketing, do we truly have the skill set to do that kind of stuff in-house? And the truth is that somewhat. But the team's really focused on the day to day sales, keeping the restaurants looking good, you know, getting all of the materials versioned. And with all of that work, that's a full time job right there. There really was no need to bring in a third party to do that. So then it's like, okay, if we want to add complementary marketing into that system, let's work together, be a part of that process. I think that's another really important part, right? If you are going to bring in a third party, an agency partner from out, and you have an internal team already in place, make sure they're part of the process. Don't kind of go off in isolation, and here you go. The third part, I would say, is just when it comes down to individuals, the people that were here were very confident and skilled and very collaborative people. So personality-wise, I just I just could tell that was never going to be an issue for us. And then the same thing at Zulu's end, we definitely had the conversations right up front to sort of say, look, we have people here that do certain things and we think they do them really well. So I don't think there was any true territoriality. It was understood what everybody would be doing together. 00:09:11.880 — 00:09:22.480 · Alison And Mike, from an agency, obviously it was, you've got two creative teams, one in-house, and the Zulu team. So it's important for you to be sensitive to that as well. So how did that change your approach? 00:09:22.640 — 00:10:51.320 · Mike The truth is, now, and even five years ago, most if not all of our clients have an in-house team. So this is the reality of business now and an important way of working. I mean, the pitfalls happen in those scenarios when you have really blurry roles, right? And, you know, Adrian mentioned competition, but I found that sometimes there can be an unspoken competition. Again, what Adrian did a great job of right off the bat was again confidence to his team. Confidence in our team. Everything was on the table. So there wasn't any unspoken competition. The other thing that Adrian, I like, you talked about designing system versus it's like just dividing the work. Okay, you do this, you do this. We sat down at the beginning of this year again, the team looked at the calendar designed for the year in terms of, okay, Zulu, we're pulling you in here, here, here and here at these key moments. There's a real mutual respect amongst our teams. Our creative people can talk directly. So it's not like, you know, me or one of our account directors is always in the middle. The creative people can speak directly, which I think is really important and a signal of a great working relationship. And you know what? We share wins and we share credit. So when there is a win, we're all winning together. It's not like, oh, so-and-so did this. It's just like, it's a it's a real team win. And actually at the CMAs. It was, that was a really special moment. You know, winning the the top prize of the night. And the full team was there to celebrate together, including Adrian's in-house team. So it does really work. 00:10:51.360 — 00:11:14.040 · Alison It really was amazing to see everyone come up on stage. Thank you both for sharing me some really important guidelines on how to have such a successful partnership. Now, Adrian, in an earlier conversation, you made a really important point about understanding what the agency needs to succeed and not just what you need from them. So can you talk about how thinking about their business and not just drone has shaped this partnership? 00:11:14.120 — 00:13:29.210 · Adrian That was something that, for myself and for the team here was a priority from the beginning. I think a lot of it is that way of thinking is borne out of just experience. And you think of the great agency partnership that I've had over the years, and it was really an understanding that there's an opportunity here for mutual benefit for both organizations. You know, just like any relationship should be that way. And then that means you have to have a little bit of empathy and understanding and sort of ask yourself, okay, well, yes, they are providing a service, but they also need to, you know, build their own brand and they need to build their own personal profiles and all of those things. And so have some empathy and say, what are the things that are important to the agency and, and how can I help provide those things? And then in turn, if I do that, what potentially are going to be the incremental benefits for Pizza Pizza? And so obviously the agency, other than they need to make money and they need to be able to invoice and bill and do all those things, they need to raise their profile in the industry. They need to be able to showcase to other clients that they do great work, and they need to do that great work in order to recruit the best people. And so if we can help provide them opportunities to do the kind of work that's going to achieve those goals, while at the same time building our brand and driving our sales, and that's going to be great. And then, of course, if we're able to do that, and then you're giving the agency work that's important to them. You know, not every project is going to be super exciting. Definitely, there's projects that we're we're up on the stage and there's lots of other ones where they just drive a specific goal or, you know, there's something that we need to say. And Zulu does a great job helping us with those too. But those sort of marquee projects, if we're able to do a few of those, I find usually the work is great and gives the brand great recognition, but also the better the work you give to the agency, the better people they put on your business. So many times when we're meeting with Mike's team, they'll say, oh, you know, we've got a new team that came on board and they're just, you know, they really want to work on Pizza Pizza. They're excited to come work on Pizza Pizza. And so we want that, right? We want to make sure that we're getting the best people supporting our business. So yeah just a little bit of understanding of what's what's important to everybody. And trying our best to be able to provide that. 00:13:29.250 — 00:14:03.620 · Alison For your brand, to be the brand that everyone at the agency really wants to work on, is such a powerful position to be in, and absolutely is a great way to ensure that you're going to continue to deliver great work. Now, Mike, when we were talking, you shared a pretty legendary quote from one of the creative presentations where Adrian said, "I love this idea and I'm actually not above going to jail for this." That's a pretty high bar for creative bravery. What creates the environment where a CMO feels empowered to say yes to such old, potentially risky ideas? 00:14:03.740 — 00:15:05.420 · Mike When you're in a leadership role and in this case, you're in a room with your agency partner and you say something like, I mean, and let's not romanticize risk here, right? Like, I mean, obviously Pizza Pizza is a it's a big business. There, there there are risks that, you know, you want to look at. But what it says to the team of people that have the ownership and accountability for this brief that we have is it's conviction. You've got a client that's saying you have permission to be bold, when you hear something like that and you've got a client who is going to have your back and champion ideas and get just as excited about them as you are. And so you want people knocking on the door at the agency to say, when's the next Pizza Pizza brief coming? Can I get on that? And so I think saying, hey, look, I'm not above going to jail for this is a pretty strong signal that you've got a client who believes in the power of creativity and who has a very high bar for ideas and has the conviction to go to jail, potentially for it. 00:15:05.460 — 00:15:07.140 · Adrian I don't. I'm terrified of jail. 00:15:07.180 — 00:15:19.820 · Mike He's terrified of jail. So, um, anyway, that was, that is a memorable, and if there's ever a book written about the Pizza Pizza - Zulu Alpha Kilo relationship, there is going to be a chapter, I'm sure, called I'm Not Above Going to Jail. 00:15:19.940 — 00:15:22.420 · Alison And, Adrian, we promise we're not gonna take you literally. 00:15:22.420 — 00:15:30.460 · Adrian I'm looking out my office window here on, uh, on Kipling Avenue as we have our discussion. And I actually look straight into the jail, which is across the street. 00:15:31.260 — 00:15:33.500 · Mike Well, the commute, the commute won't be too far then. 00:15:33.500 — 00:15:35.620 · Adrian It's too real. 00:15:37.260 — 00:15:37.980 · Alison Now Adrian, your brand has become known for jumping on cultural moments, "Bipartisan Wings" during the U.S. election to "Reverse Tariffs" and responding to trade tensions. You mentioned you're basically 80% planned and leave 20% flex for moments that come along. So how do you build that agility into your marketing operation? 00:15:55.940 — 00:17:30.110 · Adrian Well, that's a real challenge for us and our partners. One thing that allowed us to get to that place was just, I guess, best laid plans or however people describe it. Even if you have the great desire to have your year 100% planned out and you're gonna stick to that strategy and stick to that plan, I mean, I can't really think of of a time where we've pulled that off. So, you know, maybe if that's the reality, then just say, well, let's just build that into our system to say, you know what? Let's, if we could if we could achieve 80% in September of 2025, if we have a plan and come the end of the next year or the end of 2026, that we've achieved 80% of our plan, that will be a win and the other 20% will be sort of flex. So we just said, well, if there's going to be flex, let's just, let's just plan for it. That allows you to set a little bit of money aside, set a little bit of bandwidth aside, set a little bit of hours with Zulu aside so that when those moments come up, you're not scrambling to find the resources in order to make it happen. And, you know, I...
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EP73 - When the Job Isn't Enough with Kirstin Beardsley and Neil Hetherington
07/21/2026
EP73 - When the Job Isn't Enough with Kirstin Beardsley and Neil Hetherington
One in four Canadians lives in a food-insecure household -- and many have jobs, degrees and never imagined needing help. In the latest episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson sits down with Kirstin Beardsley, CEO of Food Banks Canada and Neil Hetherington, CEO of Daily Bread Food Bank, to unpack the scale of this crisis and why brands that go beyond writing a check make a meaningful difference for communities -- and their business. CMAConnect-Ep. 73-Kirstin & Neil w promo.txt English (UK) 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:24.360 — 00:02:40.450 · Alison Food insecurity in Canada has reached levels we haven't seen in modern history. Let that sink in. Right now, 1 in 4 Canadians lives in a food insecure household. That's 10 million people and includes 2.5 million children. The demand on food banks keeps climbing. March last year alone, there were nearly 2.2 million visits to food banks across the country, the highest number in our history. Behind those statistics are real people, working Canadians who can't afford both rent and groceries. Families with university degrees who never imagined needing help. Newcomers trying to build a life here, and increasingly, people who are employed but still can't make ends meet. Today's conversation matters for all of us, but especially for marketers and brand leaders. While this is fundamentally a crisis that demands policy solutions, brands also have a critical role to play right now, and many are stepping up in innovative and important ways. I'm joined by two leaders on the frontlines of this crisis. Kirstin Beardsley is the CEO of Food Banks Canada, the national organization representing over 5500 food banks and community agencies across Canada. Kirstin has been with the organization since 2015, working her way from Director of Policy to Chief Network Services Officer, before taking on the CEO mantle in 2022. She holds a degree in Women's Studies from New York University, and has built her career at the intersection of policy, logistics and community impact. Neil Hetherington is the CEO of Daily Bread Food Bank in Toronto, where 1 in 10 residents now rely on food bank support. Before joining Daily Bread, Neil led Dixon Hall and was the youngest ever CEO for Habitat for Humanity Toronto at just 25 years old. He brings a systems thinking approach to addressing food insecurity, balancing immediate relief with advocacy for long-term change. Both organizations, I'm proud to say are CMA members, and Neil and Kirstin understand that addressing this crisis requires collaboration between government, community organizations and the private sector. Today, we're going to explore what's really happening across Canada, how our landscape is changing and how brands can make meaningful contributions writing checks and beyond. Kirstin and Neil, thank you both so much for joining me. I know you're incredibly busy and I really appreciate you being here. 00:02:40.450 — 00:02:42.690 · Neil Really glad to be here. Kirstin: Thanks for having us. 00:02:42.730 — 00:03:10.960 · Alison So let's start by grounding our listeners in what's actually happening right now. Some of those numbers are absolutely staggering, but I think it's important that we don't let people become numb to them. So, Neil, let's start with you. In Toronto specifically, you're seeing over 4.1 million food bank visits annually, a 340% increase since 2019. Can you help us understand what that actually looks like on the ground? And who are the people that are walking through your doors today compared to five years ago? 00:03:11.080 — 00:04:11.100 · Neil Yeah. You know, it took 38 years for Daily Bread to to get to 1 million client visits in a single year, and then only two years to get to 2 million. One year to get to 3 million, and then another year to get to 4 million. And so we have seen this rapid growth of individuals who have to rely on food charity. So there have been those who have always been with the food bank. Those would be people who are on income supports that are wholly inadequate. So you take somebody, for example, on disability. They receive about $1,400 per month. Nobody can survive on $1,400 a month. They have to rely on friends, family and charity. But the growth that we're seeing is primarily composed right now of individuals who have done everything right. It's individuals between 19 and 44. 60% of them have a university or college education, and 50% of them have full time employment. So you think about that. They've gone to school, they've got a job, they're working hard, yet they have to come to a food bank. And that's primarily because of a lack of affordable housing in our city. 00:04:11.180 — 00:04:55.860 · Kirstin Yeah. I mean, what we're seeing is, is really what Daily Bread and Neil are seeing in Toronto magnified and multiplied right across the country. We're seeing nationally the trend of working folks, folks with employment as their main source of income, as more reliant on food banks. That's not just a Toronto-based trend. We're seeing that right across the country. But there are some places that have growth, as has Quebec, in the number of folks relying on food banks. And we're also seeing in the north. So where food insecurity has always been at crisis levels in Canada, that that is right now with the high costs, extreme costs, as well as incomes that aren't keeping pace, that more and more folks in the North are also relying on organizations like food banks to get by. 00:04:56.020 — 00:05:18.930 · Alison So Kirstin, building on what you were saying, it's really surprising to me that 20% of your clients at food banks are employed. 57% of clients at the Daily Bread Food Bank have a university or post-secondary degree, yet they clearly still have a need. So, Neil, what is this telling us about structural economic challenges that are facing Canadians right now? And how does your profile of clients continue to shift? 00:05:18.970 — 00:06:15.150 · Neil It's telling us that the social contract is broken. It used to be that that you would be able to get by when all of those parameters were, were fulfilled. And that isn't the case. And here's the thing. We decided in the 90s as a country, to get out of building affordable housing. We stopped building cooperative housing. We stopped building social housing. Yet our population was increasing and we are paying for that two generations later. And I would argue it's going to take us two generations more. Despite Build Canada homes coming about, despite $13 billion coming to affordable housing through that that excellent program, it's going to take us a while to build out of that. So in the interim, we need to make sure that there are income supports that are appropriate for Canadians. Income supports like the Canada Disability Benefit, which came into force just this last July, where $6.1 billion is going to go to those that are the most vulnerable in our society, those that are relying on food banks all across the country. 00:06:15.310 — 00:06:26.270 · Alison And, Kirstin, on a national level, you're seeing 34% of food bank users are newcomers to Canada who have been here for ten years or less. So what's driving that and what does it mean for how we're thinking about supporting new Canadians? 00:06:26.310 — 00:07:22.540 · Kirstin Yeah, I think it's important to note that there isn't one single group that's driving the growth in food bank use that, as we've said, we've seen growth across the country in a number of demographics. But that said, we know that newcomers come to Canada and meet precarious situations. So those who are employed are often more likely to be in a precarious gig employment that doesn't give consistent hours. They're more likely to earn lower wages. And if they do lose their jobs, they're less likely to be eligible for the programs that we do have in place to support folks through those tough times, things like employment insurance or provincial social assistance, but because of immigration status, are less likely to be eligible for those programs. So, as Neil was saying, what this demonstrates is just a massive gap in our social safety net. The social safety net we have is broken. And it's not ensuring that folks who are the most in need are able to get by no matter what, no matter who they are across the country. 00:07:22.660 — 00:07:44.700 · Alison And with that being the reality today, you're both operating in environments where demand is exploding and resources simply aren't keeping pace. So over half of Canadian food banks have had to reduce services and give out less food because of the pressure, yet the demand increases. So, Neil, what does the operational reality look like when you can't meet the demand? What impossible choices are you having to make? 00:07:45.220 — 00:08:39.440 · Neil Well, that reality across the country is a tough one for anybody. Every single time there is a change, it means that there is one last meal provided by a food bank to that parent, to that child. And so as frustrating as that is, we're using that as our fuel to inspire us to advocate even louder. We are discontent with the status quo, where we say enough is enough, and we need to use the stats and the numbers and the stories that we have here of family after family, tens of thousands of them on a daily basis, and use those statistics to be able to say, here are the policy alternatives that all three levels of government have failed on, and give them the alternatives to be able to start to build a more hopeful society, to build a place where everybody can thrive in community. And that flows from making sure that people have the right to housing fulfilled and their right to food fulfilled. 00:08:39.599 — 00:09:13.070 · Alison In any CEO role, you have to make tough decisions. And that's certainly true in my role. But they pale in comparison to the decisions that the two of you are facing. Those are truly heartbreaking decisions. The fact that you're using it as fuel to get governments to engage and address the root issues, and also to get businesses and individuals to engage and help meet the need, is so important and highly commendable. Now, Kirstin, how are you supporting local food banks that are buckling under this pressure? And what systematic changes does the network really need to support the growing demand? 00:09:13.470 — 00:11:08.640 · Kirstin This is one of the most heartbreaking things for me in my job is, is encountering food bankers who are having to make those decisions or are having to say, you know, we don't have as much food as we'd like to give out, or we're going to limit the number of visits that someone can make to the food bank, because we simply need to stretch the amount of food that we've got further, because more people are coming through the doors. It's incredibly hard work, and it's a much harder job than I have. I agree with you. Those are those are the toughest types of decisions. But I also agree with Neil that what we don't want to do is have to sustain this level of growth in need of food banks across Canada. What we want to do is see fewer people rely on food banks in the future, and that's going to come with solid policy decisions at all levels of government. So at Food Banks Canada, we focus at the federal level. So we work with food banks right across Canada to share what we're hearing. I think it's really important for governments to get a sense of what's happening in the reality of food banks and the folks that we serve, and we advocate for policies like EI reform that will help a future where fewer folks will need food banks. We also want to make sure that we're supporting the food bank system to remain strong. So we'll be here as long as people need food. The food bank system will strive to show up, as we have done for the last decades. But really it is about that government advocacy and that policy change. We're also, as I mentioned, around the North, we're continuing to ensure that we're a huge support to community led solutions in the North. It's a difficult place to get food when you're talking about fly-in communities, and the infrastructure difficulties of building in the North are a challenge. And so how can Food Banks Canada and this network we've got across the country support our colleagues who are doing this work in even more challenging conditions. While we make sure the system is strong today, we need to look towards a future where fewer people are coming to the doors of food banks every single month. 00:11:08.880 — 00:11:51.870 · Alison You're the first guests I've had the pleasure of hosting on the podcast, where the ultimate goal is for your organizations and your jobs to no longer be needed. So I definitely support trying to get us there as a country. So let's shift to the role of private sector and brand specifically. There are some really powerful examples of how corporate Canada is stepping up. So Kirstin, one example is Walmart's Fight Hunger, Spark Change campaign that I believe has generated over 100 million meals since 2017 and contributed another million dollars in February 2026. Purolator delivered a record 2.8 million meals in 2025. So what makes these partnerships work, and what do you do to set them apart from companies that just write a one time cheque? Not that there's anything against writing cheques. Money's needed too. 00:11:51.870 — 00:13:41.970 · Kirstin Absolutely. But, we're so grateful for partners that walk a journey with us and want to invest not only at a corporate level, but engage their employees and engage their customers to support this incredible work and critical work that food banks are doing right across the country. So with Walmart Canada, proud to say it's the 10th anniversary of the Fight Hunger Spark Change campaign in support of food banks right across the country. And as you said, they've raised a record funds, 55 million raised and donated to support food banks across Canada. And every dollar stays local. So where the customer lives, where they want to support those funds, go to a food bank that is matched with their local Walmart. And I think that's really important for those customers to know that their impact is local. And so the campaign invites those customers to donate in store, and that's matched. Walmart Canada is also engaged in a corporate match to make sure that they're contributing as well. And so it's a really 360 partnership because of their commitment to supporting communities across the country. Purolator is also a long standing partner to food banks right across the country. This is their 23rd year of the Purolator Tackle Hunger campaign, which rallies, again, their employees, their partners and communities across the country to raise critical funds and foods for local food banks. And so, while we are so grateful for those partnerships, we also know the partnerships help both companies meet their ESG goals and targets as a company. And it is, you know, it's not just the support, I always say, this work is tough on a good day. These are not good days for food banking and to know that we're not alone, to know that we have support from every sector of society, is critical in our ability to continue to do the work and meet the challenges. 00:13:42.010 — 00:14:11.360 · Alison I know they're doing it first and foremost because they see a need and they're looking to support it. The fact that they've both been doing it for decades is wonderful to hear. It's also good business. You think about how their customers are going to perceive their businesses and brands, and how they're actively giving back where in one of the areas our country most needs it. That's very impressive. Now Neil, I know you also had the pleasure of working with great brands like Rogers, Sun Life, Shell and CIBC, and I'm sure there's a host of others. So when you think about the most effective brand partnerships, what are the characteristics that make them truly impactful? 00:14:11.360 — 00:15:13.660 · Neil So one of the things that we have here at the Daily Bread Food Bank is the opportunity for that company to express their inward values in an outward fashion. They can come and they can sort that food, they can work alongside one another. And so, yes, their customers are going to value that organization more when they're donating to a local charity or across the country to individual food banks. They're going to value that, but they're going to see great benefit from an HR perspective. Think about the time that you had, you know, when you maybe you started off in your first marketing role and you got to work alongside a VP and you were a coordinator, and suddenly you had this conversation and this relationship. It's good for them as a company. And so we take that benefit and then we give them the opportunity to divest of their wealth by giving us a donation to be able to, to sort the food, put incredible music on. And, and so you're dancing alongside that VP that you otherwise wouldn't meet. And each of those companies knows that they can, uh, can dance positively into a future where everybody can thrive in the community. 00:15:13.700 — 00:15:51.570 · Alison And when you also think about younger employees are actively choosing to work at companies that they believe in and that support values that are important to the individual. So what a wonderful way to bring that to life and attract the top talent, but also retain them too. I've been really interested in some of the innovative approaches that brands are taking to this problem. So, for example, I know Loblaws plans to send zero food to landfills by 2030, which is quickly approaching. So, Neil, what are the biggest operational gaps where brand innovation could make a real difference? Is it cold storage capacity, transportation, specific food categories like protein? How can we help? 00:15:51.730 — 00:17:02.790 · Neil Well, so the answer is yes. It's, you know, each of those. And that's the thing. Martin Luther King Jr had this quote that he wrote in a jail cell in Birmingham, Alabama, where he said, we can all be brave because we can all serve. And I believe that to be true. Every single corporation has the opportunity to be able to take what differentiates them as a company and be able to take a portion of that and provide that to a local food bank. So, you know, I'm standing in front of a bin of Kind Bar granola. That company has given us sort of the leftovers from, from each of the days on a regular basis, and we repackage it and it goes out as granola to, to a family. But then you think about a company like Leo Burnett, they partnered with Daily Bread. They provided us with our new logo. And it shows, you know, forks coming together, community eating together. But if you look at it the other way, they've taken their skills and they've said it actually is for pencils marking an election ballot. So they're taking that dual mission of the food bank, which is feed the need now and let's advocate for change. And they put it into one logo. And they're winning international awards because of that one change. So again, going back to that quote, we can all be great because we can all serve. 00:17:02.950 — 00:17:17.750 · Alison Those are such great examples. I'm also proud that of all the examples that both of you have talked about, they're all CMA members. So that makes me very proud of the incredible community that we have. Alison - I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for...
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EP72 - The Partnership that Drives Growth with Amanda McCusker and Jeff Sutton
07/07/2026
EP72 - The Partnership that Drives Growth with Amanda McCusker and Jeff Sutton
Is your CMO-CFO relationship building growth or breaking it? Host Alison Simpson is joined by Deloitte Digital's Jeff Sutton and Amanda McCusker to unpack insights from a landmark Canadian study co-authored with the Canadian Marketing Association and Financial Executives International Canada. They reveal why trust is a business outcome you can engineer rather than a personality trait, how healthy tension introduced early accelerates decisions and which of the four collaboration principles separating high-growth organizations from the rest most marketers are getting wrong. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:24.600 — 00:03:27.040 · Alison The CMO and CFO relationship can be a challenging one. Marketing drives growth and takes a long term perspective. Finance protects costs and focuses more on quarterly performance. And when those two forces collide without the right process in place, tension shows up late as gatekeeping, rechecks and slower decisions. But here's what new research revealed. The best CMO and CFO partnerships don't avoid tension. They're actually designed for it. They surface challenge early when it sharpens assumptions and accelerates decision, rather than letting it fester until it stalls execution. This matters more than ever because the structural condition shaping these relationships have fundamentally shifted. CFOs now playing a leading role in enterprise strategy for 57% of organizations. 79% of CEOs say the CFO is the executive they listen to most. Meanwhile, 61% of marketing budgets are still set top down or based on prior spend, limiting flexibility even as expectations for proof intensify. Cost is immediate and visible. Yet value can be delayed and challenging to quantify. And in that gap, collaboration either compounds trust or creates avoidable drag. For today's episode, I'm excited to welcome the Deloitte Canada team who led important research on this critical relationship. It's work conducted in partnership with the Canadian Marketing Association and Financial Executives International Canada. The learning we're sharing today is Canadian focused with a global lens. So what we discussed will help our listeners understand what makes the relationship different in Canada. Jeff Sutton is Deloitte Digital's national leader for brand and growth strategy. He advises senior executives on how to unlock growth by aligning market differentiation, customer strategy and marketing execution, with a particular focus on marketing transformation and operating model effectiveness. This work brings a global perspective on how CMOs and CFOs can better align growth ambition, investment decisions, and measurable business outcomes. Amanda McCusker is a Manager in Customer Strategy at Deloitte Digital. She comes from a strategic design background and works with senior leaders across organizations to make sense of complex, cross-functional challenges. Amanda was the Research Lead on Deloitte's CMO and CFO collaboration and study with the CMA and FBI. She shaped the insights through a qualitative, design-led lens to surface how marketing and finance leaders align, where friction emerges, and what enables stronger partnerships in practice. Together, Jeff and Amanda led in-depth interviews in quantitative research with Canadian CMOs and CFOs to really understand not just where collaboration breaks down, but how leading actually build it into their operating rhythms. They found that trust isn't a personality trait, it's an operating outcome. So welcome Jeff and Amanda. I am really excited to have you here today. This is such an important topic, and I'm looking forward to diving into the insights about how we can make the CMO and CFO partnership stronger. 00:03:27.240 — 00:03:37.040 · Jeff Well, thank you so much, Allison. We're thrilled to be here. We love the podcast. And of course, thank you for the relationship and the partnership leading up to this. So we're thrilled to share. Amanda: So glad to be here today. 00:03:37.080 — 00:03:44.840 · Alison Thanks, Amanda. Thanks, Jeff. So, Jeff, let's start with why you wanted to do this research in the first place and why now was the time to do it in Canada. 00:03:45.080 — 00:05:24.430 · Jeff Yeah. So there are many. First of all, in today's economy, it is more difficult for Canadian businesses to grow than it ever has. And so growth is a top CEO agenda for many of our clients. And then as we think about marketing, marketing should be a growth engine within the business. It should lead and be the key function in which the business looks to enable growth. However, over a number of years, that hasn't necessarily been the case. Often the perception internally is that marketing is more of a cost centre than it is a growth engine. And in parallel, we're seeing the role of the CFO grow within the business. There now, as you mentioned, off the top, Alison, in your intro, one of the more strategic partners with the CEO and typically the right hand when it comes to business strategy. And so as we think of the importance of Canadian businesses needing to grow now more than ever, and we know the value of marketing and what marketing can do, it's critical that marketing and finance come together to figure out how they can collaborate better together to enable growth. Another reason why we thought this was so important is often the CFO-CMO relationship is misunderstood. We see and hear a lot of, well, we speak different language. We don't often collaborate. Well, we knew that that wasn't really the case, and we wanted to understand from organizations who are kind of leading and growing in Canadian marketplace, what are they doing differently from a CFO-CMO relationship that's enabling that growth? And so we were thrilled to partner, of course, with the CMA and FBI Canada to talk to leading marketers and leading CFOs to better understand where this collaboration was happening, what's the mindset behind it, and what are the tactical and practical actions that other marketers and finance leaders can take to enable growth in their organization? 00:05:24.470 — 00:05:44.310 · Alison Now, one of your core findings is that trust is a business capability, not a trait. And that really reframes trust as something that you build through operating discipline rather than interpersonal chemistry. So what did you hear in the interviews that led you to that conclusion? And what does it look like in practice when an organization treats trust as infrastructure? 00:05:44.510 — 00:06:48.620 · Jeff Yeah, this was so key, because when you hear the word trust, naturally you think it's based on a relationship, it's based on personalities, and that's really not what it is. It's not the case. What trust is and what we found through our research is trust actually equals reliability. Trust is earned or created through the ability of these two leaders to come together and make decisions and move quickly. And that happens over time and that happens through collaboration. It's not a you speak numbers and I speak emotion. That's not what it is. It's really about, you know, how do you create early, healthy tension when solving business problems versus showing up and collaborating late in the process, and to be turning into rechecks and slowdowns and challenging numbers versus collaborating around opportunities and challenges. And so for us, it was definitely not personalities that lead to trust and collaboration. It's the reliability of decision-making and reliability that leads to faster, more efficient decision-making. 00:06:48.660 — 00:06:58.900 · Alison Now, did you also find that that relationship side of it still has a role to play, especially when it's not about talking numbers or talking emotion when both groups are talking about the business? 00:06:59.100 — 00:07:31.540 · Jeff Yes, we certainly did find there was that, but it was less about personalities. We didn't hear much, aside from when we start to collaborate early and come together around some of the research findings we have around shared language, shared metrics, shared understanding, shared education, that led to deeper trust within the functions because they are solving things together and collaborating, versus using the functions as mechanisms to check against performance, which is a very, very different way of of looking at the two relationships. 00:07:31.580 — 00:07:45.260 · Alison Now Amanda, you quote a CFO in the research saying we hold pen on allocations, but we as an enterprise should all agree on the methodology that makes sense. Can you unpack what changes when marketing and finance agree on methodology upfront? 00:07:45.350 — 00:08:42.310 · Amanda Whether we call it methodology or strategy or just simply a plan of action, it is really critical that leaders across functions come together to align on understanding why is the organization doing what they're doing, and how are they going to do it when it comes to solving for problems or achieving business priorities? The outcome that we heard from doing this up front and aligning to whatever strategy you're taking, is really that you get a faster speed towards decision making, you get less rework in the end of the day. Finance doesn't need to know every single detail around execution of something like, for example, a campaign. But they need to know why that campaign is helping to solve a business priority, and they need to have some understanding of how their investments are going to help drive shared outcomes. So aligning to that up front can really save a lot of rework at the end of the day. 00:08:42.830 — 00:09:16.640 · Alison Now let's dig into the key insight that healthy tension between CMOs and CFOs actually leads to the best partnerships and the strongest business results. And I'd love to share how to know when the partnership is working, when it's not, and ways to improve it. So that's a big topic. So we're going to start with measurement. Amanda, you made a distinction that I think will resonate with a lot of marketers. Dashboards provide visibility. Scorecards create shared judgement. Can you explain the difference on why visibility alone doesn't produce collaboration? 00:09:16.680 — 00:10:24.540 · Amanda So this comes down to the question of not just, do we know what happened, but rather can we evaluate the outcomes? Data always refers to something that happened in the past. That could be five minutes ago, it could be one year ago. But what we heard is that it's not only important to have accurate data that can be shared, it's also very important for effective collaboration to understand, how are you translating that into what was achieved, what results came from those metrics, and a plan of action to move forward with that can evolve what it is that you're working on. These scorecards as a tool, for example, what we heard is that they're not just quantitative purely, they're also qualitative. So bringing different groups to the table in order to align on what that evaluation is up front, really helps to take all the great information that you can achieve from different activity and start to bring it forward to a more future state or target state to see, how do we allocate our budget and going forward, how do we ensure that we are getting the results that we're looking for and speak to the business about what is actually being achieved overall? 00:10:24.580 — 00:10:35.060 · Alison So building on that, what advice would you give to a CMO who's being asked to report on more and more metrics, but still finds that finance is questioning the value of the marketing investment? 00:10:35.140 — 00:12:00.250 · Jeff We heard quite consistently, it's not quantity, it's quality. And the advice we give would be to ensure that the metrics that you are defining together are aligned to the business outcomes and are not aligned necessarily to marketing outcomes. And so it's important that marketing pushes back in a way that is coming from a place of understanding how the business makes money. It's understanding how the business creates value, and that the metrics that are ultimately being defined are aligned to those. And we heard a really fascinating story from one of our CMOs who, when they started with the organization ten years ago, it was very much that the function was seen as an execution function, not a strategy function. It took this individual many years, this doesn't happen overnight, to start to show up to the leadership team in those discussions, talking about the business versus talking about marketing. And so the reason I bring up that story is that it's not only metrics that will help change the perception or help the business understand that marketing is driving value. It's also in how you show up as a leader and demonstrate that you're fully aware of how the business needs to create value, and that you're not talking metrics and marketing metrics, you're talking business and value outcomes. So it's not more metrics that are ever going to solve this challenge, multiple things that CMOs can do, but first and foremost, make sure the metrics are only talking about business outcomes, not marketing outcomes. 00:12:00.250 — 00:12:48.380 · Alison That's great advice for anyone that's in a position where you are trying to transform the marketing function from very tactical to that strategic business driver that it is and always should be. So to find the early wins, and to really focus on speaking the language of the business and showing how you're able to advance the business goals and grow the business mission. Now, Amanda, there's a pattern in your research that made me smile because I certainly saw it at times when I was a CMO. The whole concept of shadow finance, where marketing teams build their own models and analysis because there's no shared, trusted way to really evaluate value. One CFO told you, I see it in marketing a little bit more here. Marketing especially seems to have a bigger group than most. So what's driving this? And when does shadow finance become a problem versus a workaround? 00:12:48.420 — 00:14:13.910 · Amanda So shadow finance, or marketing math as it's sometimes called, is often very well-intentioned but can lead to questions such as where did these numbers come from? Which ultimately erodes trust down the line. So between marketing and finance this can actually create a lot of instability, although seems to feel like something that is going to achieve shared outcomes, it doesn't always work that way. It happens for a lot of different reasons that we heard. But the key one is really the perception of bottlenecks or a lack of access to shared information. And so this is a way that marketers feel that they can achieve results quickly, try to answer the mail on things that they need to get done as quickly as possible. The idea of it being a problem versus a workaround is highly subjective. But the most sophisticated organizations that we talk to don't allow any numbers to actually be present in materials going out internally or externally that aren't fully certified by their finance team. We also heard from a couple of folks that built cross-functional roles to take over from a shadow finance function into something that is in the light, a actual role that interprets between the language of finance, business and marketing as a way of taking sort of the nuggets of what is a good idea and has well-intended behaviours behind it, and making it into something that actually provides better outcomes for the business as a whole. 00:14:14.030 — 00:14:24.670 · Alison Now, that idea of having almost like a translator between finance and marketing, when you heard CMOs and CFOs talk about it, did it tend to sit in the finance team or in the marketing team? 00:14:24.710 — 00:14:41.690 · Amanda We often heard that they may sit under marketing, but have a dotted line to finance, so that they would be able to have insight into what meetings are taking place, what goals are coming to light, how quickly things are moving, and be able to translate the most recent information for both sides when needed. 00:14:41.850 — 00:14:50.970 · Alison That's a great solution. Amanda, you suggest that shadow finance can become unnecessary when organizations design a fast certification pathway. So what does that look like? 00:14:50.970 — 00:15:45.740 · Amanda So that certification pathway can look different depending on the business. But at its core are some of the pillars that we get to in the report. So things like shared truth and having shared learning. The piece around education is very important for having finance understand what is marketing trying to achieve and vice versa. So being able to speak the language between both teams becomes paramount to actually getting that certification early enough and getting, frankly, the approvals required for budget allocations moving ahead with certain decision making. It really varies organization to organization. And so that is why the way that we structured our research is really meant to be a groundwork that is flexible to the nuances of each organization as well. What that ends up looking like at the end of the day is going to have its own flavour, depending on the industry, depending on the dynamics between the team and where collaboration is taking place. 00:15:45.780 — 00:15:52.260 · Alison I would like to take a moment out of this episode to thank the Earnscliffe team for helping bring CMA connect to our listeners. 00:15:55.260 — 00:16:20.660 · Alison Earnscliffe is one of Canada's leading independent communications firms, with teams across Canada and expertise spanning public relations, public affairs, digital marketing, data and design. Earnscliffe brings together national reach, regional insight and coordinated expertise to help clients make sense of complex issues to build trust and deliver results. To learn more about Earnscliffe Team and Integrated services, visit earnscliffe.ca. 00:16:25.420 — 00:16:49.680 · Alison Jeff, one of the insights that really stood out to me is early finance involvement changes the role that finance plays. To bring this to life, you shared a quote a CMO had said, "Make me your partner or I'll be your judge." I know for many CMOs who are listening, that will certainly resonate. It's a powerful framing. So what are the practical barriers that keep CMOs from bringing finance in early, and how do the best partnerships overcome them? 00:16:50.040 — 00:18:33.580 · Jeff Yeah, it's fundamental in various ways. And it's a great quote. What we did notice, and this was a few of the interviews we had, it wasn't so much in their experience now, but as general marketing experience through how they came up in the in the industry and what they see from others is marketers, and this is not just for marketers, other leaders do this too, but they tend to go to finance with wanting to have everything solved. Like, the decision's been made on what the product is, they've got the business defined. Amanda talked about shadow finance. You know, they don't have the data and they want to show up and say, here's the solution. What do you think? What's the investment? Versus where we see leading organizations really start to get this right, is they bring finance in early and they start to talk about hypothesis. They start to talk to finance about, here's what we think we can do. Here's what we're trying to solve. Here's the outcomes we ultimately want to get to, here are the challenges in our way. And they ask finance...
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EP71 - Young Lions Gold with Joanne Chen and Lydia Yoon
06/23/2026
EP71 - Young Lions Gold with Joanne Chen and Lydia Yoon
How do you win gold in Canada's top marketing competition in 24 hours? Host Alison Simpson gets the story behind the win from Joanne Chen and Lydia Yoon, Google product marketing managers and Canada's 2026 Young Lions Marketing gold winners. Their winning idea – Google Maps Earth Mode – turns everyday walks into donations for the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada and now it's taking them to the Cannes Lions world stage. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:24.040 — 00:03:43.430 · Alison The best ideas in marketing don't always come from the most experienced people in the room. Sometimes they come from two sharp, curious young marketers with 24 hours, a blank page and the creative conviction to trust a truly elegant idea. Before I introduce today's guests, I want to take a moment to talk about the competition that brought them to this microphone, because it's one that I am genuinely proud the CMA is part of. The Young Lions competition is run by The Globe and Mail as the Canadian chapter of the global Cannes Lions program, which is the most prestigious creative competition in the world. The Canadian competition runs across seven categories including marketing, media, PR, digital, design, print and film. Teams are given just 24 to 48 hours to develop a full campaign concept for a real charity client. There's no safety net, there's no extended timelines, just raw creative thinking under real and incredible pressure. The CMA is really proud to be a sponsor of the Young Lions Canada, because this program does something that we care deeply about. It creates a meaningful, high stakes stage for the next generation of Canadian marketing talent to prove what they're capable of. The Globe and Mail has built something genuinely special here, and we are really happy to support it. This year's Marketers Category Challenge asked teams to build a campaign that would drive awareness and action for the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada and specifically support their new Hike for Hope, which is a national fundraising initiative. The jury, which was co-chaired by CMA Board Directors Susan Irving of Kruger Products and Eva Salem of the Canadian Tire Corporation, included leaders from Sleep Country Canada, Scotiabank, Ipsos Canada, and Air Canada, all CMA member organizations. And the team that took the gold, well, they're today's guests. Joanne Chen and Lydia Yoon are product marketing managers at Google, and in just 24 hours, they created Google Maps Earth Mode. It's a concept that reimagined one of the world's most used products to become a bridge between the digital and physical worlds, and to do so in service of the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada's Hike for Hope initiative. Their idea was rooted in a really powerful human insight, which is often referred to as the connection paradox. While Gen Z is the most connected generation in history, they've never been more disconnected from the physical world that they care so deeply about protecting. So Earth Mode proposed a new Google Maps layer that reveals local biodiversity and nature-first routes that are hidden in plain sight, where every step taken can earn Hope Kilometres with Google Maps, then donating to the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada for every milestone reached. It's the kind of idea that makes a judging panel stop, listen, and be inspired. And that's exactly what it did. Joanne and Lydia walked away with a Canadian gold, and now they're heading to the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity to represent Canada on the world stage. I am genuinely thrilled to have both of them here with us today. This conversation is for every marketer, wherever you are in your career, who really wants to understand what creative excellence looks like when the clock is ticking. So a huge welcome to Joanne and Lydia. Lydia - Thank you. We're excited to be here. Alison - Now before we get into the campaign itself, I want to start at the beginning. Your decision to enter. So, Lydia, why did you and Joanne sign up for Young Lions? I'd love to hear what drew you to it. 00:03:43.430 — 00:04:51.280 · Lydia So I actually did a lot of case competitions back in undergrad, and when I started working, I missed doing them. At the same time, I also learned about the Cannes Festival of Creativity and wanted to figure out a way that I could go. And that's how I discovered the Young Lions competition. So while I was researching, I heard about this competition. I thought it was the perfect opportunity to not only get back into case comps, but also hopefully win a trip to the festival. So I looked into it, and then what I realized was that you actually submit in pairs, and that's a unique part of the competition, it's not a solo activity. And they call it Young Lions, because you have to be under the age of 30 in order to compete. So one day I was in the office and I bumped into Joanne and I asked if she was under 30. Joanne - And I was! Lydia - So yeah, we decided to give it a shot together. We were drawn to it, mainly because it was a way for us to challenge ourselves outside of work and push ourselves beyond our comfort zone, really test our creativity, our teamwork, our critical thinking. And I think what finally convinced her to join was that we also agreed to run our first half marathon together. So shortly after the competition, we did that too. 00:04:51.960 — 00:05:06.610 · Alison So, Lydia, you're clearly very persuasive and joining a great opportunity and really identifying a great opportunity when one's presented to you. Now, were the two of you working together at Google, or did you know each other beforehand or was it a random spontaneous meeting? 00:05:06.650 — 00:05:25.170 · Joanne We don't work directly together, but we had seen each other in the hallway and at the water coolers. I think this opportunity really brought us closer, not only as co-workers but also as friends. It was cool to work on a Google project outside of work, and I think that, yeah, just really pushed our creative boundaries and and tested us there. 00:05:25.250 — 00:05:34.850 · Alison Well it's amazing. So now that you've lived through the whole experience, there is a pressure of the submission, getting up and presenting, the win. Would you recommend it to other young marketers and why? 00:05:34.890 — 00:06:12.500 · Lydia I would say 100%. My only caveat is that the more work and effort you're willing to put into this competition, the more that you'll get out of it. And that's something Joanna and I witnessed firsthand. It's an incredible opportunity where you get to meet great people, make industry connections. It's a good practice of working under pressure and ultimately really broadens your marketing skill set. I actually competed two years ago with a different partner. We didn't place gold, but even throughout that process still learned a lot. And that motivated me to want to try again this year. And yeah, for us this year, the cherry on top was being able to now represent Canada in Cannes, so I would definitely recommend it to everyone. 00:06:12.620 — 00:06:51.420 · Alison That is a very big cherry on top. Your lesson that the more you put into it, the more you get out of it is certainly true of the Young Lions competition, but it's a great work and life lesson to learn at this stage in your life. The more you put into, whether it's training for a half marathon or the career that you're investing in, the effort will definitely be returned in spades. So kudos to you both for recognizing that. So let's talk about the competition format itself because it really is intense. You've got 24 hours, a charity brief, a complete campaign to develop. So Joanne, take us back to the start. What did that first hour actually look like and what did the two of you do first? 00:06:51.660 — 00:07:17.030 · Joanne We were really ntentional about not rushing into an idea that first came to us. What we did was we read the brief and we parted ways for a bit. We wanted to form our own unfiltered thoughts so we didn't groupthink into the first idea that came to us. We did our own research and try to look at the problems from all different angles. And by the time that we finally sat down together to align on what the key ask was and what the problem was, the first hour, it was over. 00:07:17.030 — 00:07:23.590 · Alison So when you came back together, did your ideas build off of each other? Had you come up with similar ideas? I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. 00:07:23.630 — 00:07:50.910 · Joanne We came back with different ideas on what products we should use, but I think we understood the key ask pretty similarly. We built on each other on a few topics. I think we saw problems from different angles in which I think for like some of the main insights that we had, there are parts that we had missed from each other, and I think we were able to build on top of each other's ideas. And together we kind of filtered out our thoughts for what made sense versus not and pressure tested. 00:07:51.080 — 00:08:07.600 · Alison Now, the insight that's at the heart of Earth Mode is the tension between Gen Z being hyper hyper connected digitally while becoming increasingly disconnected from the natural world. That is really the emotional engine of the whole campaign. So, Joanne, where did that come from? 00:08:07.600 — 00:08:35.560 · Joanne So we are both guilty of being too connected to the digital world ourselves. Personally, my average screen time per day is about eight hours, which I'm not super proud of. Um, but since we are the target audience, we just reflected and asked what's stopped us from doing more. We spent time thinking about what was a personal truth for the both of us, and realized it was actually a shared truth for a lot of the people in our generation. Once we found that emotional tension, it became the anchor for everything we built. 00:08:35.680 — 00:08:42.120 · Alison And Lydia, once you had the insight pinned down, how quickly did Google Maps emerge as the right canvas? 00:08:42.120 — 00:09:31.850 · Lydia I would say a bit quicker than we expected, honestly. Um, as Joanne mentioned, we came back with a few different product ideas, but once we were aligned on the ask and the insight together, we realized that there were two key factors that we should look at when thinking of a product connection. So firstly, something that would drive awareness. A product that has ubiquitous reach and daily usage, as well as a product that would drive action. So something that would actually connect with Gen Z and the environment in the mission of JGIC. And then from there we thought Google Maps fit the build. We thought it felt the most natural. We were both really excited about it. And I think ultimately it was hard to know if it's the one, especially in those 24 hours. It's really easy to second guess, but especially since we only had 24 hours, the time constraint really allowed us to stick with our gut and just run with Google Maps. 00:09:31.850 — 00:09:40.610 · Alison Now, sometimes the simplest ideas are often the hardest to find, and you were doing that under such compressed timelines. So how did you know that this was the one? 00:09:40.610 — 00:10:05.500 · Lydia I think, representing a global and larger company like Google that has several brands, you are faced with the paradox of choice. But I think when the both of us, like, thought of Google Maps started ideating a bit, we both just felt like it was right in our gut. And again, due to the limited time, we just kind of went with it and believed in ourselves and all the prep that we had done to date. 00:10:05.620 — 00:10:29.540 · Alison Now I want to dig into the creative decision-making for a moment, because Earth Mode is really brilliantly restrained. You didn't try to build something entirely new. You took a product that is already in hundreds of millions of pockets and then changed the lens. So, Lydia, how did you resist the temptation to overcomplicate it in a 24 hour competition where you're trying to impress a jury, there must have been a pull towards doing even more. 00:10:30.180 — 00:11:18.630 · Lydia For sure. It was actually super-complicated. During our ideation we had so many ideas for different features, different naming conventions, how to gamify it, etc. but when we zoomed out and we tried to summarize our idea in one sentence, it was harder than we thought and we realized we couldn't. So that's when we knew we had to make it simpler. And something we often hear leaders at work say is that it takes longer to write a shorter email. It takes longer to make something more concise and simple and clear. So we kind of approached the case with a similar mindset. And then in the end, once we got to that realization, eventually we landed on a simple enough one-liner summary, which was our idea being that "Earth Mode is a new Google Maps feature to help Gen Z discover the world beyond their screen", and we were happy with that. 00:11:18.670 — 00:12:02.840 · Alison It is such a great and smart discipline to take the time to say, can we summarize this in one sentence that makes sense? And to your point and to your manager's point, it is a really hard discipline to do, so it's such a good quality check of how good the idea is and whether you need to continue refining, refining, refining. So kudos to you for being smart enough to take that into a pressure cooker of an assignment. Now, the campaign hinges on a partnership between Google Maps and the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada. Two very different organizations with very different audiences. So getting that kind of pairing to feel authentic rather than opportunistic is one of the hardest things to pull off in marketing. Joanne, how did you think about that connection? 00:12:02.880 — 00:12:33.360 · Joanne We focused on a very simple synergy between the two brands. Google Maps help people navigate the world, and the Jane Goodall Institute of Canada helps them protect it. It felt real to us because it wasn't all about making just an ad. We were adding a layer of purpose to a tool that we use every single day. We decided to use the screen that everyone uses every day as a bridge to nature, rather than a barrier. So by meeting people where they are, we could realistically guide them to where they need to be. 00:12:33.480 — 00:12:36.840 · Alison And what made you confident that this would feel genuine to consumers? 00:12:36.880 — 00:12:58.730 · Joanne We had to be realistic and we kept having to check ourselves. We asked ourselves if this was something that we would do on a Saturday morning, because if we didn't believe in it ourselves, then we knew our peers wouldn't either, given that we knew we were the target audience. So we focused on the small and tangible actions and focused on building habit rather than just a one and done big campaign. 00:12:58.810 — 00:13:16.810 · Alison So let's fast forward and talk about the moment that you actually had to stand up and present. You've got ten senior industry leaders in front of you, including co-chairs from the CMA Board and jurors from some of Canada's most respected organizations. So, Joanne, take us into that room. What did it feel like in the seconds before you started? 00:13:16.850 — 00:13:49.940 · Joanne We'd be lying if we said we weren't nervous. We were really, really nervous. We were even practising in the bathroom and trying to keep it down. But the second we stepped into the room, all that nervousness turned into excitement. I remember the big smiles on the jury's faces, and it made us feel comfortable right away. And as crazy as it sounds, since we prepped so hard, it really became just muscle memory once we started. I just tried to keep reminding myself to have fun with it, soak in the moment and really enjoy every second of it. 00:13:49.980 — 00:13:55.980 · Alison Such great advice. So looking back, what do you think was the single thing that truly connected you with that panel? 00:13:56.180 — 00:14:20.140 · Joanne We think that it worked because even though the insight was specific to Gen Z, it was a truth that everyone is living with right now. We're all feeling the same pressure of being glued to our screens regardless of our age. It didn't feel like a niche problem. It was something that everyone in the room could see themselves in. We just leaned into a reality that almost everyone is experiencing this in the digital world. 00:14:20.180 — 00:14:38.140 · Alison Now, one of the things that I find most fascinating about this competition is what it can reveal about a marketer's instincts after you've stripped away all the usual safety nets - the long briefings, the approval processes, the opportunity for rounds of revisions. So, Lydia, what did 24 hours teach you about yourself as a marketer? 00:14:38.180 — 00:15:34.510 · Lydia I would say two things. Firstly, even with time constraints, just the importance of taking breaks and resting. So for us, in those 24 hours, we tried to go for walks. We tried to step away from the screen. We even spent time to actually eat meals and also sleep a solid eight hours at night to review it again in the morning with fresh minds before we did our final submission. And I think the limit for pushing yourself creatively doesn't exist if you can take those proper breaks. And that was one main thing we learned. And then secondly, I think it also just taught us that we can do hard things. Um, Joanne and I were actually both travelling when we heard we made the top five, so we worked on our deck in the middle of the night on our trip, and then also on the plane back, and I think that was something that we really put our mind to because we cared and wanted to prove to ourselves that we could do it. And in the end, it paid off. And yeah, we're proud of ourselves for proving to ourselves that we could do that. 00:15:34.990 — 00:15:43.720 · Alison That's going to be such relevant experience for when you're in Cannes. Throw in a 12 hour time zone that and ended up with gold in Canada, so that bodes well. 00:15:44.560 — 00:15:45.640 · Lydia Even with jet lag. 00:15:45.680 — 00:15:46.960 · Joanne Always on the go. 00:15:47.200 — 00:15:52.280 · Alison So, Joanne, did anything surprise you about how you work or what you're capable under that kind of pressure? 00:15:52.480 — 00:16:31.120 · Joanne Yeah. So to be honest, I was terrified about the presentation part. It was one of the main reasons why I almost didn't want to sign up for Young Lions. I have never considered myself a natural public speaker, so I had a lot of imposter syndrome going into the competition. I was really worried that I would freeze up or lose my train of thought in front of the jury, but I surprised myself because the second we started, the adrenaline just took over. It gave me a chance to really practice that set of skills in a high stakes environment, and I walked away feeling really proud of how we handled all the pressure and work, and very happy with how we've ended it. 00:16:31.120 — 00:16:47.210 · Alison So now you're heading to Cannes, which is a genuinely remarkable opportunity. You're representing Canada on the international stage at the world's most prestigious creative festival. So, Joanne, what does that actually mean to you personally? And honestly, is it more exciting or more terrifying right now? 00:16:47.250 — 00:17:17.970 · Joanne First of all, it's a massive honour to...
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EP70 - Follow Your Compass with Sandra Sanderson
06/10/2026
EP70 - Follow Your Compass with Sandra Sanderson
How do you build a career that spans CPG giants, Crown corporations, fashion retail and one of Canada's largest grocery empires? In this episode, host and former CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Sandra Sanderson, CMO of Empire Company Limited and 2025 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award recipient. Sandra unpacks the career pivots, leadership lessons and the principle she calls confident humility that have defined one of Canadian marketing's most remarkable careers. 00:00:00.920 — 00:00:19.680 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, newly-retired CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:24.200 — 00:02:58.890 · Alison A successful career in marketing requires embracing change, agility and reinvention. However, the most successful marketers go beyond this and really recognize emerging patterns, often before others even see them coming. My guest today is a terrific example. Sandra Sanderson has built her career on a deep understanding of consumers, very strong business acumen, strategic thinking and perhaps most importantly, the courage to act quickly and take measured risks. As the very deserving 2025 recipient of the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award, Sandra's career really demonstrates how marketing can transform organizations, and how measured risks can really open up amazing new career opportunities. Early in her career, Sandra recognized the power that was shifting from CPG to retail and made quite an unconventional pivot to Canada Post, using it as a strategic investment to learn retail fundamentals through their retail network of 6000 post offices and B2B partnerships with major retailers. This is just one great example of many that led to tremendous success for the brands that Sandra has led. From starting her career with Procter and Gamble to transformational leadership roles at Shoppers Drug Mart, Walmart Canada, White House Black Market, which is a leading U.S. fashion retailer, and now the Empire Company Limited, Sandra has consistently led marketing that creates competitive advantage and delivers significant business results. Sandra joined Empire in November of 2018 as their Senior Vice President of marketing, and was promoted to Chief Marketing Officer in July of 2023. Empire is the second largest grocery retailer in Canada, with brands like Sobeys, Safeway, IGA, Thrifty Foods, Foodland and Fresh Co. In her time with Empire, Sandra has orchestrated complex transformations, including relaunching their long-standing approach to loyalty. She received the CMA's Marketer of the Year award in 2020. She has been recognized as Strategy's Marketer of the year twice, and most recently, Sandra was honoured with the Retail Council of Canada's Grand Prix Lifetime Achievement Award this year. Sandra has also been great about giving back to our profession. She served on the CMA Board for four years, including as Vice Chair, and Sandra currently serves as a Board Director for Special Olympics Canada and Scene Plus. Perhaps most remarkably, despite an enviable career track record of success, Sandra really does embody confident humility, leading change and reinvention across diverse industries while nurturing and building many future CMOs and a well-deserved legion of fans. Welcome, Sandra, I am really looking forward to our conversation today. 00:02:58.970 — 00:03:03.690 · Sandra Thank you so much, Alison. It's great to be here with you on CMA connect. 00:03:03.930 — 00:03:28.210 · Alison Sandra, congratulations again on your CMA Lifetime Achievement Award. And you knew very early in life that marketing was a career for you. In fact, you wrote about the ambition in your high school yearbook. That's pretty rare in our profession. So to say that you achieved your goal is definitely an understatement, as your many amazing contributions and awards really demonstrate. But what was it that attracted you at such a young age to marketing? 00:03:28.250 — 00:04:24.140 · Sandra Well, thinking back to high school, it's a bit surreal to think that early ambition has turned into a decades-long career journey. What drew me to marketing was a unique intersection of art and science. I was intrigued by the idea of using data to decode human behaviour and using creativity to build emotional connections, and that curiosity led me to business school. Once I started taking marketing courses at Ivey, there was no turning back. I knew that's what I wanted to pursue, and after graduating, I was fortunate enough to land a role at Procter and Gamble. I started out as at brand assistant on Ivory, along with 26 other new graduates. P&G was a very big on-campus recruiter that year, and it was great to be able to work on such an iconic brand right out of the gate. Looking back, that high school ambition really did set the stage for everything that followed. 00:04:24.220 — 00:04:34.660 · Alison Now, you have recently announced your retirement for the summer, so you've definitely been in marketing for a few decades. What has kept you so engaged in our profession throughout your career? 00:04:34.900 — 00:06:12.740 · Sandra I think what has kept me engaged for so many years is that marketing as a profession keeps evolving. It's in a constant state of reinvention, which has given me a never ending stream of challenges and opportunities to learn and grow. I've always been drawn to business transformations, but the most significant one by far has been my journey with Empire. My role today has fundamentally changed from what it was when I first joined the company, which was in 2018. I was actually working in the U.S. when I got a call about Empire, and at the time the company was in deep crisis. The Safeway acquisition had not gone as planned. The company had lost $4 billion in market cap, and investor confidence was at an all time low. Michael Medline had been hired the previous year as President and CEO, coming from Canadian Tire to lead this massive transformation of the business. And so I was intrigued. I flew to Toronto to have lunch with Michael, and at that lunch he was very transparent. He shared with me all the challenges on the business and the changes that would be required in marketing to achieve his vision, and he didn't sugarcoat a thing. And so at the end of the meal, I remember he looked at me and he said, you're either going to be very energized by a challenge this big, or you're going to walk away and we won't see each other again. Well, Alison, I didn't walk away. I was all in because it was clear that marketing would have an instrumental role to play in the transformation, and I was genuinely excited. 00:06:13.300 — 00:06:34.300 · Alison I love Michael's candour with you in the interview process. He clearly understood how important it was for the CMO, choosing to step into the role to really understand the unvarnished reality. His partner needed to be energized by the rare career opportunity to help lead a massive transformation. And you clearly were. So I'd love you to share some highlights of the transformation and what's kept you engaged. 00:06:34.620 — 00:09:04.230 · Sandra Looking back, what has kept me so deeply engaged is the sheer scale of the marketing transformation within a broader business transformation. We moved from having separate Quebec and English Canada marketing teams started to a unified national organization. That gave us the scale we needed to stand up a Centre of excellence in marketing, technology and digital, which modernized our entire marketing engine. A big turning point was the transformation of our loyalty program. For over 20 years we had been part of a coalition program, so the stakes were really high when we decided to pivot, and I had the privilege of serving as the executive lead on the loyalty transformation. We made a bold decision to become the co-owners of Scene Plus, together with two other iconic Canadian companies, Scotiabank and Cineplex. And today, we scale that program from 10 million to over 15 million members. And the level of personalization we can offer today is just light years ahead of where we were. And, you know, the Scene First party data also became the bedrock for another venture, which was Empire Media Plus, our new retail media business. It's an example of how transforming one part of the business creates the fuel for the next. And it was super exciting to have the opportunity to launch a new media start-up within a $32 billion grocery retailer. It's a completely different business model, and honestly, I have learned so much over the past year, which has been energizing. We also launched an in-house agency called Atelier, and having that creative engine embedded directly in our business and our culture allows us to move at the speed of the market. In retail today, as you know, there's simply no room to stand still. And lastly, within all of these changes, there's one that's particularly rewarding for me personally, and that's the reinvention of our community investment strategy. We shifted from having over 200 fragmented partnerships where our impact was diffused to one focused national strategy, where we could truly make an impact. And since making that pivot, we've been able to raise and donate more than $130 million for our communities. It's a powerful reminder that at the end of the day, we're not just selling groceries. We're serving a greater purpose. And because of all of these opportunities to learn and grow, it's not at all difficult to remain engaged, and energized every single day. 00:09:04.350 — 00:10:00.080 · Alison That is a very impressive transformation. And you've accomplished an incredible amount in seven and a half years. I also love that Michael was completely transparent in that lunch conversation, because he was absolutely right that this was going to be a role that the right candidate saw as a once in a lifetime opportunity to come in, make big bets, have marketing at the centre of leading much needed change, or it was going to scare the bejesus out of them and they were going to be like politely thanking for the lunch and going on their merry way. So kudos to him for recognizing that. And kudos for you for raising your hand for a challenge and most importantly, clearly delivering on it too. In talking about how much transformation you've led, it also highlights just how much the role of marketing is evolving, certainly from when we were both in high school and thinking you were thinking about it as a career. So if you were in high school today, do you think marketing would still be your dream career? 00:10:00.360 — 00:10:34.200 · Sandra It's an interesting question. I'd say yes, absolutely. In fact, I think I'd be even more excited today because back then, marketing was largely about brand-building. And today our profession has become so much more complex and multidimensional. The dream hasn't changed for me, but the job would be so much bigger and more impactful than I had anticipated. So if I was writing in my yearbook today, I'd still say marketing, but I'd do it knowing I was signing up for a career of constant change and transformation. And it's exactly why I would choose it all over again. 00:10:34.240 — 00:10:44.320 · Alison So building on that, what are the two or three skills that have made you so successful and would make that high school student today who is aspiring to follow in your footsteps successful as well? 00:10:44.440 — 00:11:37.060 · Sandra I've been fortunate to join several iconic organizations and brands with deep legacies at exactly the moment they hit a critical crossroads. So being in those pivot moments has really forced me to sharpen two specific skills. The first one is taking on the role of a change agent, and the second is having a growth mindset. Throughout my career, I've been asked to lead initiatives where I had zero previous experience, whether that was launching a B2B loyalty program at Canada Post or launching a marketing technology team at Shoppers Drug Mart, or even recently, you know, building a national sports sponsorship portfolio at Empire. These opportunities forced me to embrace the idea that my abilities are not fixed. There are muscles that can get stronger if I make the effort to learn, and that has served me well in a profession where there is so much change. 00:11:37.380 — 00:11:58.000 · Alison So building on how quickly our profession is changing and if anything, it's only getting faster, that means embracing change and being open to a less traditional career path can be very important to success and longevity, and you very much embody this. So what is the most unconventional career pivot you've made so far, and what did it teach you? 00:11:58.200 — 00:15:10.400 · Sandra Well, I had spent the first 12 years of my career in consumer packaged goods, starting at P&G, then Kraft, and eventually becoming Vice President of Marketing for Minute Maid at Coca-Cola. And I knew how incredibly fortunate I was to hold a senior leadership role at such an iconic global brand. But I craved a new challenge. I wanted to be in retail, but pivoting to retail was not easy. It turns out retail companies weren't exactly lining up to hire a Vice President of Marketing with zero retail experience. And Alison, I spent months trying to land a job with no success. And at the time it was incredibly discouraging. But I kept at it. And eventually a recruiter called and he said, Sandra, I have an amazing retail opportunity for you. It's a Canadian company with thousands of retail outlets. And I was like, I can't figure out which retailer has thousands of stores across Canada. Well, the mystery retailer turned out to be Canada Post, and they did, in fact, have the largest retail network in Canada at the time with over 6000 post offices. And it was not quite the retail opportunity I had in mind. But I didn't have other options and I was intrigued. The role was for General Manager of Marketing, and it would report to an executive from Pepsi and I thought, hey, we'll speak the same language. The role included areas of marketing I knew very well, but it also threw me into entirely new territory. Leading a retail marketing team, running their e-commerce site, and driving B2B marketing. And I decided to take the leap. And I can tell you plenty of people, including my colleagues, my friends, thought I had lost my mind. They said, you're giving up a VP role at a global powerhouse like Coca-Cola to go to work for a Crown corporation. To the outside world it didn't make any sense, but I trusted my gut, and that decision turned out to be transformative. It felt like I was getting a masterclass in retail, and I had the opportunity to co-lead the creation of an award winning flagship post office. I collaborated with retailers like Amazon and Indigo and others, and I learned how to lead an e-commerce team. I launched a small business loyalty program, and so taking that seemingly off course detour turned out to be exactly the springboard I needed. It gave me the foundational experience to eventually land a job as Chief Marketing Officer at Danier, where I learned all about speciality retail. I was then hired as Senior Vice President of Marketing at Shoppers Drug Mart, then Chief Marketing Officer at Walmart, and ultimately led me to my role today. My advice to others is this - don't assume your career has to be a straight ladder. The most rewarding paths rarely are. Don't be afraid of making a detour, sometimes taking a step sideways, or maybe making a move that other people think is crazy. It may be exactly the experience that you need to grow. 00:15:10.960 — 00:15:19.040 · Alison That's such a great example. Also, kudos to the recruiter who knew his prospect well enough to know how to pitch it and pitch it in a very compelling way. 00:15:19.080 — 00:15:19.840 · Sandra He certainly did. 00:15:19.840 — 00:15:43.380 · Alison It takes a lot of courage to, like, go against what people that you respect, whether your friends, people you're working with, people in your professional network, if they're all saying, what are you thinking? And to be true to yourself and really trust that gut. That takes courage. Now with any change brings challenges. So when you did make the move to retail, What challenges did you experience working in such a new industry? 00:15:43.500 — 00:17:22.839 · Sandra Alison. Moving from CPG to retail was a huge culture shock. I quickly realized why companies hesitate to hire senior marketers without retail experience. It was a completely different beast. If CPG is a marathon, retail's a series of high stakes sprints that's happening simultaneously and sometimes the track is on fire. A big lesson for me was agility over perfection. In the CPG world, we were strategic, deliberate, meticulous. In retail, perfection is often the enemy of progress. If you wait for the perfect data set, the season is over and you're sitting on millions of dollars in unsold inventory. I had to learn very quickly to make decisions with incomplete information. I remember a Monday morning meeting where weekend sales had slumped. Our CEO looked across the table and said to me, we need an incremental promotion live by Friday. Well, coming from CPG or we plan for months and years, I was like a deer in headlights. I had no idea how to move that fast. Fortunately, my team was great. They knew the ropes and eventually I did learn to be more nimble. And it was great for me that I started my retail chapter at Danier Leather, which was a smaller business with a tight knit executive team. It allowed me to see the full picture from supply chain to the storefront, and it gave me a holistic view that's often hard to get at in a very large business enterprise. And so that was great. Eventually I figured it out and I found out that I love the fast pace and the complexity of retail. 00:17:23.160 — 00:17:47.250 · Alison Now, there is such an adrenaline piece to it and just the momentum behind it. I love it as well. So your career definitely demonstrates quite a remarkable ability to recognize patterns that others often miss. And seeing how the Canadian CPG industry was evolving when you were at Coke is one great example of many. What signals were you seeing that made you realize the power was shifting and inspired your move? 00:17:47.450 — 00:18:44.590 · Sandra Back when I was VP of Minute Maid at Coke, manufacturers told the stories. We built the brands, the retailers provided the shelf space. But I started to notice some shifts that were reported. I saw retailers becoming so much more sophisticated. Brands in their own right. Their private label wasn't just generic. They were becoming genuine competitors with real customer equity. And I realized that while we in CPG knew who bought our brand, the retailers knew what else was in that basket. They had that direct relationship with a human being behind the transaction. I could see that whoever owned the data and the last mile was eventually going to hold the cards, and we saw consumers becoming more demanding and retailers were in the best position to react to that in real time. And I wanted to beware. The actual moment of truth happened between the customer and the shelf. 00:18:44.710 — 00:18:54.470 · Alison So what advice do you have to help our listeners recognize shifting market dynamics so that they also know when to pivot, both for their businesses but also for their careers? 00:18:54.550 — 00:19:57.480 · Sandra Well, it's incredibly easy to become insular in your own industry, but the biggest shifts usually start as whispers and not...
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EP69: Stop Thinking Small with Meghan Nameth
05/26/2026
EP69: Stop Thinking Small with Meghan Nameth
Marketing isn't a cost centre – it's your greatest growth engine. Drawing on three decades at brands including P&G, Mars, TD Bank, Hudson's Bay and Loblaw, CMA Board Chair and President and Owner of Pattern and Path Consulting, Meghan Nameth joins CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson to make the case. Discover how to tie marketing directly to business outcomes, why most teams have the 80/20 planning rule backwards and the mindset shift Canadian marketers need to compete on a global stage. CMAConnect-Ep69-MeghanNameth_FINAL.txt English (UK) 00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23.640 — 00:03:03.100 · Alison In a world where marketing can be wrongly treated as a cost centre instead of a growth engine, transforming that perception requires more than great marketing. It absolutely demands strong business acumen, strategic vision, a deep understanding of consumers and the evolving market realities, and really knowing how to speak the language of business. For today's episode, I'm absolutely delighted to welcome Meghan Nameth, the newly appointed Chair of the Canadian Marketing Association's Board of Directors and President and Owner of Pattern and Path Consulting. Over three decades, Meghan has built a diverse and very impressive marketing career, working in both Canada and the U.S. She started at Procter and Gamble, where she learned brand building fundamentals that have served her well throughout her career. After spending almost 11 years with P&G in progressively senior roles in Canada and at their U.S. head office, Meghan moved to Mars. She then expanded beyond CPG with roles in financial services as VP Marketing at TD Bank and Managing Director at PWC Canada. She was also CMO at Hudson's Bay and the SVP of Marketing at Loblaw. This diverse industry experience further strengthened her marketing and business acumen. Meghan's work has been very well recognized at the Cannes Lion Cassie's, of course, the CMA awards, Cleos, Effies and the Media Innovation Awards. In May 2025, she was appointed Vice Chair of the CMA board, where she led the search for a new President and CEO following my announcement of my retirement, a responsibility that speaks to the trust and respect she commands in the marketing community. Meghan has now stepped into Board Chair role, and I'm really excited to see how she builds on the CMA's strong momentum during her two year term. What makes Meghan's perspective particularly valuable is her conviction that Canadian marketers have untapped potential. We both share a belief that marketers must think bigger, drive more innovation, and really position themselves not as service providers seeking approval, but as strategic partners co-creating growth. Throughout her career, the CMA has been an anchor, providing the network's learning resources and advocacy platform that have really enabled her to elevate marketing's role in every organization she served. Welcome, Meghan, it is an absolute pleasure to have you on CMA connect, and I'm really looking forward to your conversation today and celebrating your appointment as Board Chair. 02:41 - Meghan Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I'm happy to talk about marketing anytime actually. Alison So our third annual CMA Marketing Week wrapped a bit earlier this month. And I know that you, along with thousands of marketers across the country, took full advantage and really engaged with a number of our events, thought leadership sessions as well as the training sessions. So I'd love to start by having you share your three big takeaways from this year's CMA Marketing Week. 00:03:03.100 — 00:05:59.800 · Meghan It was an amazing week. I feel that these events are in some ways a bit of a reunion. I get to see so many people that I haven't connected with in so long and catch up and learn. And so it's really an amazing opportunity for networking and reconnection. And I think that's probably one of my biggest takeaways is that when I attend these events, I really feel the full value of what the CMA brings in connecting people across industries. I see people from financial services, from when I worked in retail, CPGs, that I haven't connected with in a long time. So it really is that power of connection and learning what people are doing. So I think that's the biggest takeaway I have, because you can get really heads down in your own day to day job and forget to sort of look up and look around. And that was kind of one of the biggest values that it brings. Secondly, though, there was a keynote speaker, Tucker Bryant, who talks a lot about how creativity and actually the creative process of poetry can bring value into innovation cycles. And from that, his message was do different things differently. That really resonated for me because, you know, we talk a lot about AI, and AI was very present throughout the week of how we leverage AI, what AI can do for us. But there is a risk that we go so fast with AI that we forget to really interrogate the ideas, to really think about what's creative, what's different, what's really driving growth for an organization. And I think his message was really about, you know, we can't all be the same. We should be different. We should be thinking about things differently. And so really thinking about a process to sort of do that inside your organization, I thought was really valuable. And then I think the third takeaway is the impact of marketing. So there was a study that the CMA did with Signal 49 that really demonstrated or proved, I guess, the value of marketing to the Canadian economy. And so there was some sort of shocking statistics that, you know, $130 billion in GDP, really, 1 in 25 jobs are marketing jobs. This, for me, underscored, I think, what I've known for a long time, which is marketing, has tremendous value to drive growth for organizations, and that's really critical. It also is the unlock for our productivity challenge in Canada that we can really demonstrate that these companies that we work in, we can help them to grow beyond our borders. And lastly, with the number of people in Canada involved in marketing, how critical the CMA is and our role to sort of really upskill and future proof that sort of function and people involved in the discipline. So I think that was my takeaway, is the power of connection, doing different things differently and then the impact that marketing can have on productivity. 00:05:59.920 — 00:06:45.120 · Alison Those are such great takeaways and the impact that marketing have now that we've been able to quantify it and really demonstrate that it is foundational, regardless of what sector or industry you're in, marketing is a driver of our economy. To your point, it's a key way that Canada can overcome our productivity issue. And building on the keynote from Tucker, we are the best served around the executive table to really drive innovation and doing different things differently. Now Meghan, before we dive into your vision for the role as our new Board Chair, can you share a bit about your story? I know you started your career in supply chain at Procter and Gamble, which isn't the typical path into marketing. So what drew you to this profession and how has that background really influenced your approach to marketing? 00:06:45.240 — 00:08:39.610 · Meghan It definitely is not the typical path forward, but I'm so grateful, actually, that I got a chance to start in supply chain. And and after that, I actually did a really very brief moment in sales as well before moving into brand at P&G. But supply chain really helped me understand the mechanics of an organization. Like, how does the product actually move from R&D into production and then onto customer shelves and all the challenges that can exist within that system? You know, especially in packaged goods, you can generate demand, but if there's no product on the shelves, it's really it's really sort of like, does a tree fall in the forest? Will anyone know because they can't buy the product? And so I think really understanding that a strategy or a demand generation plan is only as good as what you can operationalize has sort of really continued on through my whole career. And now as I sit in a more service provider role, what we're working with clients on is not just how do you generate insight, but it's how do you actually take that to a business strategy? How do you take that into your execution? And so I think that actually has been foundational for me. And how I approach marketing is more as a system. So it's marketing is part of an organization's system for growth. And it's not the only part of the system. And so we have to work across all these different functions to pull them together, to really realize that demand generation and benefit that we create. I feel really lucky that that's where I started, because I think that was a huge benefit. And I think the other thing was that very early in my career, because of how supply chain organizations are structured, I had very early people management experience and that, you know, has really benefited me in leading teams and helping to like, learn how to unlock the power of the talent on your team. And I think that was a really great benefit as well. 00:08:40.169 — 00:09:09.060 · Alison That sounds like a great starting point when you think of it. The best marketers have a very deep understanding of all aspects of the business and from a credibility perspective as well, the fact that you know and have worked in the operational side of the business, the fact that you've worked in the sales side of the business, those are such key partners to delivering on the marketing strategy and the marketing initiative. So I would think that it also helped elevate your credibility across the organization as well. When you did move into a marketing role. 00:09:09.100 — 00:09:39.140 · Meghan Maybe, I mean, I moved to different organizations, so sometimes that doesn't always translate across. But I would say what it gave me is tremendous empathy for those roles. So a lot of times when you sit in one function, you really haven't walked in the shoes of another function. And I think it helped me to say, you know, we're not giving them enough information or we're not collaborating strongly enough or learning what they are up against to be able to influence different outcomes. And so I think it gave me a lot of empathy for the challenges that exist in other parts of the organization beyond marketing. 00:09:39.180 — 00:09:58.750 · Alison Now, we've talked a bit about your career spanning CPG, financial services and retail, including moving from very marketing-focused organizations to PNG to industries where marketing traditionally has had a bit less emphasis. So what motivated you to make these industry pivots, and what did you learn about leveraging your skills across very different sectors? 00:09:58.830 — 00:12:28.120 · Meghan So many things, we could do an hour just on this, I think. Yeah, I did start my career in CPG and I would say the biggest difference was that they were multinationals. So in most of my time I was in Canada supporting organizations like Mars and P&G that were headquartered out of the U.S. And so Canada, you had to, first of all, you had really big roles. Like maybe the size of the market wasn't as large, but the breadth of your role was quite large. And so you had to touch a lot of things, even if you couldn't go very deep, you were kind of moving across different elements of the business. And so that was a huge benefit to being in those multinationals. But you're always sort of, you know, working with your North American partners to sort of prove the value of investing in Canada, and you're sometimes adapting more work than you are creating work from scratch or even strategies from scratch. And so it builds a different muscle in those multinational roles. Moving into financial services, in part, I did it because I wanted to work for a Canadian headquartered company where there was room for career growth, so that was a big part of that move. I wasn't actually sure that my skills would translate into financial services, but I think what I've learned is that the fundamentals of marketing, you know, who are you trying to attract? Why are you marketing like, are you trying to convert new business, you know, deepen relationships? Those things move across all different industries. From what I've really experienced, the benefit of moving into financial services is how digital those businesses are. That really built out a different muscle for me around digital marketing and the amount of data. And so I think one of the best things about moving into financial services was I really fell in love with analytics and insight because of how rich the data sets are in financial services, and also the talent that exists in those organizations to really look at new insights from all of that data. And it's kind of the same in retail. You know, I had the great benefit of working for Loblaws and their PC Optimum portfolio has a tremendous amount of insight because of the breadth of that program. And so I think a lot of what motivated me was the opportunity to have an impact and opportunity to learn something new and experience something. But I think the skills from each role sort of built on top of each other to help me make an impact in those roles. 00:12:28.160 — 00:12:44.970 · Alison That's a great perspective for everyone in our audience to understand. I worked across very diverse sectors as well. And initially you think, oh, is this going to work or not? But to your point, the fundamentals are absolutely there, and I have a bit of a bias that makes us even stronger marketers when you have to translate them to very different industries. 00:12:45.010 — 00:13:21.450 · Meghan When I think about what gets in the way of a great plan, often it has really nothing to do with understanding the industry, but a lot to do on aligning the pieces of an organization to make choices and move something forward. And that's kind of true across all different industries. If you can get everyone sort of aligned on a direction, making those clear choices a clear point of view and, and execute with excellence, that really works. But often what disconnects is not understanding the industry. It's often getting the internal alignment. 00:13:21.610 — 00:13:28.650 · Speaker 2 Our ability to influence, for sure. Now you embraced a much more entrepreneurial career path. So what led you to take that plunge? 00:13:28.690 — 00:14:40.940 · Meghan Well, so many things. I would say that the number one thing is, and I talked about it a bit as I talked about TD and the opportunity to work with the insights and analytics team. I really have always loved finding that unique insight that is going to move a business forward. That's been the favourite part of every job I've ever had. It's, you know, really looking for that unlock from the consumer, from the market, from the business and trying to figure out what is it that's going to move something forward. And so when I thought about what did I want to do next? After my last role, I wasn't sure that I wanted to work in a larger CMO role because I wanted to work on multiple businesses and brands. I've had, to your point, a lot of different experiences. And I also really wanted to focus on helping organizations find those unlocks. And that's really what we do is we are looking for deep insights that help move an organization forward, and we're really focussed not just on what is the insight, but how does a company take that forward, how do they get aligned, how does their, what are the next steps coming out of that insight? And that part is the part that I love the most. So I'm very happy to be doing this. 00:14:40.940 — 00:14:49.380 · Alison And what was the biggest surprise, moving from the corporate brand side into more, much more entrepreneurial and service side part of the profession? 00:14:49.420 — 00:16:31.550 · Meghan Well, there's a couple of things, and I think one is that it's hard to be a small business. Go from a large corporate organization where you have all these resources and support to, you know, a small business where you have a small team and you're trying to make an impact. So for smaller agencies and organizations, it is tricky. There's a lot of bureaucracy, there's a lot of things that you need to do that you don't have as many resources to get it done. So that part's challenging. But also, you know, you just build a different muscle. I think the second thing that is maybe surprising is in some cases, we see clients being very disconnected from their customer. And so I think it's an opportunity for everyone to remember that you need to see and talk to the people that are using your product or service on a somewhat regular basis to stay connected, and I am seeing a lot of people using AI, which is good to be efficient and using data to make decisions. So these are all good things. But what's missing is that we've, in some cases, lost the human connection, and we're not spending enough time seeing people in real life using the product, observing people in stores and how they're shopping or observing how they're shopping online. I think we're relying a lot on digital tools, which have a limit to what you can really see in terms of human behaviour. So I think what's an opportunity for everyone is to remind ourselves we can't understand our customer from our desk and to really get out there and see people in real life. 00:16:31.590 — 00:16:50.510 · Alison Great advice. Now, you've also spoken about the importance of marketers connecting their work to the business growth and really helping the C-suite understand the mission critical impact that marketing has on the business. So from your experience leading marketing, where do marketers need to improve in order to get more credibility with the executive team? 00:16:50.550 — 00:17:56.200 · Meghan Yeah, I think there's really nothing worse than a marketer that comes in to a leadership team and says how great the marketing is doing when the business is not doing well. So I think the first thing is, is that all marketers need to operate like leaders of the business and that marketing is a component of success. And so that's the first thing, is to really recognize the context in which you're operating. So if the business isn't doing well, the marketing campaign might be performing, but something else is not, and everyone needs to be a part of that solution. The second is we have to speak the language of the business, not the language of marketing. So I very much believe in building brands, but building a brand isn't a business outcome. And so I think we have to sort of start to translate our language into language that the CFO and the CEO are really interested in, creating shareholder value, generating income sources, new revenue streams, and really thinking about it from their lens, not from our own lens. 00:17:56.280 — 00:18:09.800 · Alison So the language is such an important piece of how to do this effectively. So can you share an example of how you've translated marketing strategy into business outcomes that really resonated with the CEO or the board? 00:18:09.840 — 00:19:37.820 · Meghan Yeah, definitely. So we talk a lot about whether marketing is a cost centre or not. I firmly believe that marketing should be really tied to revenue growth, because why would you be marketing if you're not trying to grow? That's really what...
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EP68 - Out-Thinking the Giants with Rachel MacAdam
05/19/2026
EP68 - Out-Thinking the Giants with Rachel MacAdam
When you can't outspend the competition, you have to out-think them. In one of her final episodes as CMA President and CEO, Alison Simpson sits down with Rachel McAdam, Vice President of Marketing at Skip, to explore what it takes to build a Canadian challenger brand against global giants. The conversation covers the "Skip to the good part" rebrand, a partnership ecosystem built on Canadian passion points and a three-sided marketplace strategy. The standout? The cultural agility that turned a rap beef into a campaign so effective it shut down competitor apps. CMAConnect-Ep68-Rachel MacAdam v2.txt English (UK) 00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23.040 — 00:02:26.210 · Alison In a market dominated by global giants, how does a Canadian founded challenger brand like Skip not just survive, but thrive? The answer lies in doubling down on authenticity, building strategic partnerships and really recognizing that marketing is about much more than reaching consumers. It's also about driving growth across every stakeholder in your ecosystem. For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Rachel McAdam, Vice President of Marketing at Skip. Rachel is leading a Canadian founded and built business and one of our country's most recognized food delivery brands through a significant transformation, from Skip the Dishes to simply Skip expanding their delivery service beyond restaurants to retail, and also navigating intense competition in a market where deep-pocketed competitors can easily outspend smaller players. Rachel brings deep expertise and loyalty marketing to this challenge. Having spent significant time at Loyalty One, she played a key role in building Air Miles into one of Canada's largest brands. She really understands how to create emotional engagement and build lasting customer relationships. This expertise has proven invaluable at Skip as she navigates the loyalty wars in food delivery. Under Rachel's leadership, Skip has distinguished itself through a uniquely Canadian approach to partnerships. They're going beyond sponsorship deals to becoming strategic pillars that can really help reinforce Skip's Canadian roots, while also expanding reach in ways that transcend traditional marketing spend. From priority concert access through Live Nation, wide-ranging partnerships with the Toronto Blue Jays, Disney Plus, CIBC, and WestJet, Rachel has built what she calls an ecosystem approach to loyalty, tapping into Canadian passion points rather than competing purely on price. What makes marketing at Skip compelling is how the team understands and approaches managing the needs across a three-sided marketplace. Rachel has some great examples to share in how her team is delivering on this. Rachel is part of a leadership team, transforming Skip from a functional utility into something broader and much more meaningful. Rachel, welcome to CMA connect. It's a real pleasure to have you on the podcast today, and I'm looking forward to a great conversation. 00:02:26.210 — 00:02:27.450 · Rachel Thanks. Looking forward to it. 00:02:27.530 — 00:02:42.250 · Alison Now, Rachel, as I mentioned, you spent a lot of time at Loyalty One and really helped build Air Miles into one of Canada's largest loyalty brands. So coming off of that experience, what was it that attracted you to the Vice President of Marketing role at Skip, and what were some of your early priorities? 00:02:42.490 — 00:03:25.270 · Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, what was great about Skip is that it had a lot of the similarities of Air Miles from its early days. So, you know, it's a great Canadian brand. Um, it was rooted in really a three way marketplace, which was very similar to Air Miles. You know, Air Miles is about connecting consumers to retailers through the loyalty program, and Skip really is about connecting Canadians to their favourite restaurant or retailers through the delivery ecosystem. And so I really loved that about it. And I love a good challenging opportunity. And so to your point, the delivery category is, um, it's it's very fast paced, it's very competitive. And I really felt like there was a huge opportunity for marketing to play a key role in the transformation of the business. 00:03:25.470 — 00:03:44.870 · Alison We're like-minded when it comes to being attracted to big, hairy, challenging goals, and you're doing an amazing job with Skip. So one of the big things you did was evolve the brand from Skip the Dishes to simply Skip. And clearly there's a lot of strategic thinking behind dropping the dishes, so I'd love to hear more about that. And also, how does it reflect where you're taking the business? 00:03:45.110 — 00:05:34.640 · Rachel Yeah. So when we were looking at the transformation of the business, you know, what's interesting is Skip was a scrappy start-up. Covid hit, you know, exponential growth in delivery. But it really created a new expectation for consumers that it wasn't now just about delivering my favourite pizza on a Friday night, but now I'm looking for convenience and delivery much broader than that, And we really felt that our brand positioning of Skip the Dishes wasn't really reflecting this broader services that we were offering to Canadians, and it was really keeping us limited in the minds of Canadians. We also felt that we weren't tapping into a key point of differentiation, that we were the Canadian brand, you know, created in the prairie provinces. We run on Canadian technology, but we weren't really leveraging that. And we did research. And, you know what Canadians said was, that if all things were created equal, you need to be price competitive. You need to have my favourite restaurant, but I will choose a Canadian brand. And this was sort of before the the upswell of Canadiana came in. Even before that, that really was very much part of what Canadians were looking to support Canadian brands. And so between those two things, we really said we are missing an opportunity to set ourselves apart from these big global organizations or brands in the market. And so we took that research. We worked with Courage as our agency to understand what's the consumer insight? What's happening culturally? And where's that white space opportunity for Skip to really own and differentiate? And that's where dropping the dishes, bringing the maple leaf into the logo so that when you quickly look at your phone, you probably have multiple delivery apps on your phone. Let's make sure that we're reminding you that you do have a Canadian option, an opportunity there. And then we dropped the dishes really as we were launching into retail. So that really was the first signal to the Canadian consumer that I can actually get much more than just food delivered by Skip. 00:05:34.960 — 00:05:52.680 · Alison Now you're doing a great job of reinforcing Skip's Canadian roots. Also through your new spokesperson, the new campaign, and partnerships with really iconic Canadian brands. So why is this Canadian positioning such a crucial differentiator, and how do the partnerships in particular work together as an ecosystem? 00:05:52.720 — 00:08:45.630 · Rachel Yeah, I think we are in a very competitive category with two very large brands in particular that come with deep pockets. And if you're not going to outspend on media or in vouchering, how do you make sure that you set yourselves apart? And we really felt that the Canadian element of our brand, of our technology, the fact that we are feet on the streets in Canada was a key part of differentiating, but we couldn't do it alone. And that's really where partnerships came in. So we we introduced the new brand positioning. We leveraged actually a previous spokesperson with Jon Hamm because he came with actually great affinity to the Skip brand. There was very positive association. And the original campaign had sort of positioned Jon as wanting to be Canadian. So it was, well, he's not Canadian, it was actually reinforcing that he wanted to be Canadian aspect of it. And so we used that sort of as a nod to our past. But also we then had Jon tell the new story that it was Skip at the grocery store and at the pet store and sort of all the ways that you could Skip. And then partnerships launched shortly after. So we introduced the new brand in October, and then we quickly launched Skip Plus subscription. And so we felt that the brand promise of "Skip to the good part." We help you skip the hassles of every day. That was always foundational to what Skip was a part of. But now it wasn't just helping you skip dinner, but it was helping you skip the trip to the pharmacy, skip the trip to the liquor store. But we wanted to make sure there was a proof point, that it wasn't just a tagline, that it actually was a brand promise of helping you Skip to the good part, which is where partnerships came in. And so we launched subscription about six weeks following the brand relaunch, and that really became the proof point that said, we talked about helping you skip to the good part. Here's another proof point to say we can help you skip to the things that matter most to you, which really tapped into passion points. You know, we were we were third to market on subscription. You know, you could look at that as a disadvantage that we were last to market. We actually looked at it as an advantage that we had the opportunity to see what's in market, what are we competing against, and then how do we create that ownable, authentic aspect to Skip. And that really became our partnerships, that we are going to help you skip to the good part, not just on delivery, but that Canadians are passionate about music and they're passionate about travel. And so how do we bring that to life? That was through partners, that we're going to help you skip to the good part to get to the concert that you love most. We're going to help you skip to the good part and get to the travel that you love. And so that's really where partnerships came in. And we launched with CIBC, with WestJet, with Live Nation, really to help prove out that brand promise of helping you to skip to the good part, which was an addition to the core value proposition that was required. So we need to be competitive on price. We need to be competitive on supply. But opening up that emotional engagement, those additional exclusive experiences, really, we felt were the point of differentiation we can make in the Canadian market. 00:08:45.870 — 00:09:09.370 · Alison And skip to the good part, is such a compelling promise to consumers, and I love the way that you're delivering on it. You're also somewhat unique in that you're marketing to three very distinct stakeholders: consumers, couriers, partners. There are other brands that certainly have multiple stakeholders as well, but it can also be fairly unique for a number of our listeners who aren't in that current environment. So why is this multi-stakeholder approach critical to your success? 00:09:09.410 — 00:11:09.460 · Rachel Do you know what's interesting? Often, you know, as marketers, we talk about what we're doing and we talk about the consumer. But equally, if we think about our role as marketing, it's really about ensuring the flywheel works. And so really as this three way marketplace, we need to have all three stakeholders getting benefit out of this relationship in order to make it work. So, you know, if marketing puts a great campaign in market and we drive you to the app, but your favourite restaurant isn't there, you're not going to order. Or if we put a great campaign in the market and we drive you to the app, but the delivery time is really long because we don't have enough couriers driving, you're not going to order again. And so that's why the three way to marketplace and making sure that we are delivering on that brand promise to all three stakeholders is so important. And I would say, you know, I think one of the things that has been so impactful for us, as we sort of are on this transformation journey is that the brand promise of skip to the good part is fully embraced by our CEO, Paul Burns. He really views that brand promise not as the responsibility for marketing to deliver, but everybody across the organization has the responsibility of delivering the good part to their stakeholder. And so as much as we focus on delivering the good part to the consumer, we are equally supporting our partnership team on how do we make sure that we're delivering marketing campaigns and marketing tools and capabilities so that our partners like McDonald's and Loblaws, that we just announced can actually grow their business off our platform. And with the couriers, how do we make sure that we're helping our couriers with their businesses, grow their business on the Skip platform? And we do that through activations with McDonald's, where we set up pop-ups, where couriers can come in, we give them new bags, they have fresh, you know, Skip delivery bags, but they also get free coffee from McDonald's. In the fall, we ran free oil changes, so like helping them grow their business. And so I would say that's really been a key part of that ecosystem. That flywheel working is making sure that skip to the good part is a brand promise for all three of the stakeholders. 00:11:09.500 — 00:11:36.900 · Alison Those are great examples, especially when you think about how much of your brand is in other people's hands, and courier being the best representation of someone's going to either be really pleased with the experience or if something goes wrong, not just blame the courier, but it reflects badly on your brand as well. So I love that you're taking them into consideration and helping set them up for success, whether it's your oil change or recognizing that it can be a tough job and often fuelled by coffee too. 00:11:36.940 — 00:11:42.820 · Rachel Yeah, I mean, they literally deliver the last five feet of our brand promise, is the Courier experience. 00:11:42.820 — 00:11:50.820 · Alison And in your time at Skip, has the approach evolved at all or was that something that the brand has long recognized the importance of? 00:11:50.820 — 00:12:06.160 · Rachel I think the brand always felt that couriers were a key part of the experience. I think because of the relaunch of the brand and rallying the organization around this brand promise, I think has brought new ideas and new ways in which we're engaging couriers that we haven't been doing in the past. 00:12:06.200 — 00:12:26.400 · Alison Now, leveraging pop culture moments can also be a very effective brand strategy. And when we were talking earlier, you shared a great example of that when Kendrick Lamar mentioned a Toronto restaurant during the Drake rap beef. Your team moved super quickly to capitalize on the moment, so I'd love you to share what happened there and how you were able to be as agile as you were. 00:12:26.440 — 00:14:37.410 · Rachel You know, I think it's a great example of a close partnership with our agency, so I give great credit to Courage. They very much embody our brand as much as we do. They really are an extension of our team. And so they're always looking for cultural moments where Skip can authentically play a role and be part of the narrative. And so the Kendrick and Drake beef was a great example. I think the rap dropped on a Wednesday. We had a call Thursday and they were like, you know, it mentions the restaurant that's on the network, we should do something about it. And by Friday morning we had a digital truck driving around downtown Toronto, leveraging some of the phrases from the rap with a 50% off at that restaurant. And what was great is it created some, you know, obviously we had influencers, there's some organic conversation around it. And we exceeded what we would normally put through that restaurant in a three week period, we delivered in one night. And one of the best signals to say, like, did we really make an impact is they actually turned off the competitor apps because they couldn't handle the volume we were driving through Skip. So that's one example of if you know what your brand stands for, you've got a finger on the pulse of what's happening, you can really tie it together. I'll give you another example. When the tariffs first came out and we wanted to reinforce the fact that we're the Canadian alternative, we introduced what was what was called spell codes. And every day for a ten day period, we would put out a clue in social where if you spelt the word the right way, the Canadian way, we would unlock a voucher and we tailored the vouchers based on what the conversation was around tariffs. So it was a 15% voucher. And then oh no, no, it's a 25% voucher and now it's a 50% voucher. And and it was great because we had people talking in social, about like what's the clue going to be today and what do we think the keyword was. And so again, it was another way of like reinforcing where the Canadian option without saying we're the Canadian option, but it was a point in time that only Skip could authentically be a part of that conversation. We weren't going to have an American competitor start talking about, you know, being Canadian during the tariff situation. And again, it was another one where we know what we stand for, we know who we are as a brand. And when that cultural moment came, we were able to quickly turn it on and really create something of value to the consumer. And that really put us in, you know that conversation. 00:14:37.650 — 00:14:47.050 · Alison I love those examples. And the ultimate proof of success is when the restaurant shuts down your competitors because you've driven so much demand to their location, so... 00:14:47.050 — 00:14:48.610 · Rachel It was a great day. 00:14:49.290 — 00:15:03.110 · Alison Now, you mentioned earlier that you were last to market with your subscription offering, but instead of seeing that as a disadvantage, you very much positioned it as an advantage. So how are you differentiating from the very functional offerings of your competitors? 00:15:03.150 — 00:17:05.510 · Rachel Yeah, I think that was one of the things that we saw when we were taking a look at, you know, what is in the market today. And what we saw is even though there is well-established subscription programs in market, there was still a high degree of app switching. So consumers clearly weren't seeing enough value in what was in market to have loyalty to those. And we really felt what was missing is that while there was functional benefits, there really wasn't anything in there that was exclusive or, you know, recognition-driven. And we really thought Skip had an opportunity to own that. And it very much lined up with our brand promise. And so from a subscription perspective, launching with Live Nation, launching with WestJet, really taking some of those gamification kind of aspects and delivering it in a way that drove exclusive experiences would be a point of differentiation. And and we're really seeing that take root. And, you know, I'll give you an example. We sponsored Oseaga last year, which is a music festival in Montreal. About 50% of the people in, uh, in the festival actually come from Ontario and other parts of Canada. So it really does represent, you know, a Canadian target audience. And Skip sponsored it. But we had an exclusive experience just for Skip Plus. And so to get into this exclusive, sort of premium experience, you got to be a Skip Plus member. And then you get access to, you know, a makeup touch-up area. And we had soft seating under coverage from the hot sun. And most...
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EP67 - Confessions of a CMO with Jon Crowley and Krisi Packer
05/12/2026
EP67 - Confessions of a CMO with Jon Crowley and Krisi Packer
The CMO role isn't dying – it's evolving. Based on anonymous interviews with marketing leaders worldwide, Confessions of a CMO reveals five distinct archetypes built to thrive under today's pressures. Join outgoing CMA President and CEO Alison Simpson, SVP, Partner and Head of Strategy at FUSE Create Jon Crowley, and Associate Creative Director, Verbal at Monigle, Krisi Packer, as they unpack the research, apply a distinctly Canadian lens and help you discover which archetype you are. 00:00:00:12 - 00:00:14:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Live. Confessions of a CMO. With your host Alison Simpson and special guests Jon Crowley and Krisi Packer. 00:00:14:20 - 00:00:43:04 Alison I'm Alison Simpson, and welcome to our third ever live CMA connect podcast. We've had the pleasure of kicking off CMA marketing week since it was created, and it's wonderful to be back here again to do the same thing. Love sharing the energy in this room with all of you. And also a huge thank you to the hundreds of marketers who have joined us from across the country, especially our friends on the West Coast who are getting up extra early to be part of our CMA marketing week kick off. 00:00:43:06 - 00:01:11:11 Alison For years, we've been hearing that the CMO role is dying. We're seeing shorter tenures. We're seeing shifting titles. We're seeing shrinking budgets, fractured influence. The headlines right themselves. The death of the CMO has become far too common rallying cry on conference stages and in LinkedIn, thought pieces. But as Mark Twain very famously said, the reports of our death are greatly exaggerated. 00:01:11:13 - 00:01:45:05 Alison And that's exactly what our data shows. When CMO's lead customer centric growth company's see 1.4 times higher performance. When that leadership is fully integrated across the organization, growth doubles again. And here in Canada, our own Kantar research tells the same story. Top Canadian brands grew 10% last year, which is significantly outperforming Canada's GDP growth over the same period of 1.3%. 00:01:45:07 - 00:02:14:19 Alison So marketing leadership absolutely is not dying. It is evolving. The species survives because we adapt, and that's what we're here to explore today. Today's conversation is based on exclusive research that asks CMOs to confess what really happens behind closed doors. It's not the polished LinkedIn version of leadership. It's the unfiltered truth, the failure of forced adaptation, and the strategies that really helped ensure survival. 00:02:14:21 - 00:02:39:09 Alison What emerges from those candid conversations is a new taxonomy of marketing leadership. We have seven distinct species picking up on the evolutionary theme that dazzle shared with us, and each of the species has evolved to thrive under very different corporate pressures. Joining me today are two people uniquely positioned to unpack these insights. Krisi Packer is the co author of confessions of a CMO. 00:02:39:11 - 00:03:08:04 Alison She's also associate creative director of Verbal at Monocle. Monocle conducted dozens of anonymous interviews with CMOs around the world, from CPG to tech, from Europe to Asia Pacific, and of course, Canada. And they really captured the honest moments when leaders could finally speak freely about what it really takes to survive in the C-suite today. Jon Crowley is a partner, senior vice president and head of strategy at Fuze Create. 00:03:08:06 - 00:03:31:07 Alison Jon works directly with Canadian CMO and marketing leaders every day, and really helps them navigate the exact pressures that this research helped unveil. He's bringing the Canadian perspective to a global conversation. Well, Krisi and Jon are going to share what they discovered, including which CMO space that they identify with. And here's what makes the research really, really powerful. 00:03:31:09 - 00:03:53:22 Alison It isn't prescriptive. It doesn't tell you which species you should become. Instead, it helps us hold up a mirror and says, here's what's working. Here's how leaders like you are thriving and adapting today. So Krisi and Jon, please join me on stage. I'm looking forward to an insightful and very fun conversation. So, Krisi, let's start by giving our audience a quick field guide. 00:03:54:00 - 00:04:03:05 Alison Can you walk us through the five dominant species and their defining traits? And we'll treat this as a bit of a nature documentary. How do we spot each species out in the wild? 00:04:03:07 - 00:04:13:20 Krisi Fun fact that this field guide does have very nature documentary style intros for all these. Just great. I'm going to spare you my David Attenborough oppression though. Jon, I think you have him right? Yes. 00:04:13:22 - 00:04:14:15 Krisi So let's first 00:04:14:15 - 00:04:33:06 Krisi start with, our chief beauty officer. So I'm going to go through these really quickly. The report is incredibly in-depth. So just know that I'm going to just hit the high notes here. So that way we can you know what your appetite. So the chief Mutiny officer this is our strategic war breaker or our disruptive mutation of the chief marketing officer. 00:04:33:07 - 00:04:53:17 Krisi And really, their job is to kind of enter a place of organizations and release, you know, controlled doses of rebellion. That can look like a lot of different things. But one of the things I love to, give an example for is they will, do anything and, take action even before alignment exists. Right? And they'll use results as proof that they were right, that they should have watched it. 00:04:53:19 - 00:05:12:06 Krisi I know a lot of you might be thinking, hell, yeah, like mutiny. Burn it down. That sounds amazing. That is so reckless. But the truth is, mutiny officers are not reckless. They are highly calculated and precise about when and where to break the rules. And I think what I love about them the most is they, don't wait for that change. 00:05:12:06 - 00:05:16:00 Krisi They provoke it. And, Alison, I know your type is Mutiny Officer. 00:05:16:02 - 00:05:35:16 Alison Yeah. So thank you for describing us as not reckless. When I did the quiz, which everyone will have an opportunity to do as well, I did identify as a Chief Mutiny Officer. And what was interesting was when we've reached out to other Canadians to get a sense for the different profiles that are emerging. Chief Mutiny Officer was one of the lowest to emerge in Canada. 00:05:35:16 - 00:05:46:21 Alison So I know a little bit later Jon will talk about why that is. Is that just us polite, humble Canadians is a political pressure. But we will dig into a little bit more of how we don't have more Chief Mutiny Officers. 00:05:46:23 - 00:06:12:11 Krisi Absolutely. All right, so next we have our Chief Missing Officer. This is our invisible operator or a master of camouflage. And I think this one has the most misleading name. When you hear missing, you probably think I'm absent. Like, do they come to meetings like, what's actually going on? But they are far from absent. They're actually just stealth. I think if the apex, Chief Marketing Officer, if you will, was sort of a show boater. They're a credit share, right? 00:06:12:13 - 00:06:34:11 Krisi They are aligning leaders before a big meeting. They are embedding marketing priorities and other business functions. And, you know, they might not be in the meeting, but their fingerprints are on every single decision. And this is something that, I typed as, as well. Next, we have our Mood Officer. This is our stabilizer. They are the people that are always thinking about the tone in the room. 00:06:34:13 - 00:07:02:11 Krisi It's very vibes coded. It's very, you know, understanding that the decisions that are made are just as important as the environment that it's in. You might spot them in the wild when they're, you know, cutting well-timed jokes to cut the tension or, you know, they're absorbing all that negativity that's in the room just to move the idea forward. So very, very vibes coded. And, honestly, one of the people that really sets the tone for, the environment for ideas to be made in. 00:07:02:15 - 00:07:31:00 Krisi Next we have our Chief Meeting Officer. This is our translator. And I think this is most, closely aligned to a marketer's traditional skill set. They are really connecting the organization through narratives, right? They're bringing together, you know, finance, customer experience, all these different things and really understanding how to talk to them about marketing. And a lot of times in really convoluted situations, too, they're just stating the obvious, which I think is a very important tactic. And something beautiful about the narratives that they create. 00:07:31:00 - 00:07:37:15 Krisi They really bring people back to the human part of the organization and the mission. And, Jon, I know you tie Disney off the right? 00:07:37:17 - 00:07:54:13 Jon Which is maybe the most stereotypical thing for an advertising strategist to type out as sort of the list of options. It's, the concept of, you know, Narrator's Translation, this idea of bringing everyone along on the story. It's kind of like when you read a horoscope and you're like, oh, yeah, I do do that a lot. Maybe I am stubborn as a Taurus. 00:07:54:15 - 00:08:14:18 Krisi All right. And finally we have our momentum officer. So this is our propeller. That's always driving progress. They were born, into the depths of red tape, and they've evolved to know how to cut through it, which I think is really interesting. They move too quickly to fall into those bureaucratic traps, and they really trade theory for action, right? 00:08:14:20 - 00:08:35:09 Krisi You won't catch them, you know, debating something. They're going to be, you know, launching not one campaign, but ten campaigns. They are, moving faster than the speed of debate, which I think is very interesting. And it's not just about speed, but it's about intention as well. So if you all are interested, scan the QR code. You can do, the typing tool right now, probably takes 30s. 00:08:35:11 - 00:08:38:06 Krisi It is not a personality quiz, but it's just as fun. 00:08:38:08 - 00:08:50:14 Alison So we're going to dig into some of the global patterns. And then also the Canadian, what emerge from a Canadian perspective. So Christy, since you've released the report and you've continue these confessionals with number of CMOs, what are you seeing? 00:08:50:16 - 00:09:12:15 Krisi I think what we're seeing is that CMOs are categorizing themselves situationally and deploying the tactics strategically. Just as Jon said, you know, we can't have our horoscope saying, you know, you're gonna have a bad day to day or you don't like bad smells or something, you know? I think what's interesting about this is they are looking at the report and saying, who am I? 00:09:12:15 - 00:09:34:09 Krisi Which traits can I use a different text situation? So we had a CMO who we interviewed. She was, great. She's like, I read the whole report, I did the typing tool. But I have to tell you, when I was reading through everything, I saw myself in every single species. Right. I'm a momentum officer with my team. I'm a meaning officer of my board. And I'm a munity officer with my peers, which I think is interesting. 00:09:34:09 - 00:09:51:01 Krisi So the idea here is to, again, hold a mirror up to what we're all doing right now and really understand what our, you know, strengths are, but also where can we stretch into other species that we might not be as comfortable with? If you're a momentum officer, you're constantly in motion. Always think about the next thing. Maybe a mood officer. 00:09:51:01 - 00:09:58:02 Krisi We have to slow down and really think about the tone. That could also be something that you could be stretching into there. That's not second nature. 00:09:58:04 - 00:10:16:07 Alison Well, it's also encouraging that we as marketers are able to adapt with the environment, adapt with different business pressures as well. Now, Jon, how does the Canadian landscape differ from what Christy found globally? We talked a bit about Chief Munity Officers. Are a bit missing in action in Canada, but what other differences did you see? 00:10:16:09 - 00:10:32:05 Jon Well, a couple of things jumped out that we thought were absolutely fascinating, and we had a bit of an off the record conversation with a group of Canadian marketing leaders. One of the first ones just to call out that that lack of Chief Munity, the officers in the room, was possibly the most Canadian outcome I could have ever imagined. 00:10:32:07 - 00:10:52:23 Jon Like in in our day to day work, we work with a lot of business leaders, both within and outside Canada. And the thing that comes up consistently is people work in the Canadian marketplace are a little more conciliatory in their approach. Other markets, even ones that may be nearby, maybe a little bit more kind of aggressive and confrontational in how discussions are brought together and how things are looked at. 00:10:52:23 - 00:11:13:09 Jon But something that came through in conversations with Canadians in the overarching Canadian approach is that there is a real tendency to kind of be the right person for the room in the moment that you're in. Similar to what Krisi talked about, about that, that need for adaptability. That was very highlighted to the point where, you know, in a room of nine, Canadian CMO was talking about their role as marketing leaders and what motivated them. 00:11:13:11 - 00:11:29:22 Jon The most common point was, I can't distill my day or my work down into just one of these. I need to be all of them every day to manage the relationships internally, to manage the relationships with my customers and our partners, and to ensure that we're getting to the best outcome on a consistent basis. 00:11:30:00 - 00:11:37:11 Alison So I love the adaptability I love the Canadian politeness. What I don't love about that is does it imply risk aversion? 00:11:37:13 - 00:12:01:15 Jon So I think that's a fantastic question. I think I think the interpretation of risk aversion is one that comes up a lot in reference to Canadian marketers and really to Canadian business in general. I've heard the same criticism about Canadian manufacturing and Canadian financial institutions and so on and so forth. I don't think care about building strong relationships and keeping them steady actually implies risk aversion. 00:12:01:17 - 00:12:10:08 Jon I think it is entirely possible to have a high risk tolerance while still having a very collectivist mindset. And I think there's a tendency to confuse the two. 00:12:10:10 - 00:12:30:09 Alison Absolutely agree. And it's all about not risk for risk side. But measured risks will help our businesses go for it. So the research also reveals three really interesting paradoxes that really contribute to whether you're a successful CMO today or not. The first is adaptation beats dominant. So, Krisi, what does this mean in practical terms? 00:12:30:11 - 00:12:53:18 Krisi Annotation beats dominance means, I think, the demise of the, you know, old school command or control, you know, CMO the old days, right? It's usually about big budgets, big campaigns, owning the narrative, owning the functions, splashy things. And it's like, okay, well, that just isn't a thing anymore, right? The organizations were in a world, frankly, it's unpredictable. It's chaotic. 00:12:53:18 - 00:13:14:13 Krisi It's, you know, something you can't control. And so I think now it moves from, you know, instead of marketing owning their function, it's navigating the system in which marketing exists. Right? We had a CMO talking about, his company, and he was saying that each business unit had their own marketing department. It was part of a legacy thing with the company. 00:13:14:13 - 00:13:35:12 Krisi And as you can imagine, that is a hairy situation to be in. But what he said next really struck me, which was, this isn't a marketing problem. This is actually a change management problem. And I think that right there just incredibly stuck with me because that is the role now, right? It's not just about marketing, it's about navigating the entire system you're in. 00:13:35:14 - 00:13:40:12 Krisi And I think having that adaptability, which marketers naturally do, is a really good head start. 00:13:40:14 - 00:13:50:06 Alison Now, Jon, how are you seeing this come to life in Canada? And if I don't know if you have a specific Canadian example, you can share where that adaptability versus dominance really helped contribute to success. 00:13:50:08 - 00:14:15:18 Jon So I think this is actually a really interesting thing to look at, because I think this is actually closely tied to the be like friendly, collaborative nature that gets called out when Canadians go work in other markets. One of the discussions that actually came up in our, in our off the record room of CMOs was the success the Canadian marketing leaders have had by going elsewhere and being able to bring that collaborative collective slightly less confrontational approach to bear. 00:14:15:20 - 00:14:37:08 Jon The thing that jumped out more than anything else when, when looking at these stories about adaptability, is how many times I've seen people need to pivot from operating in an organization that's very traditionally based to one that suddenly becomes 100% digital, and something I got to see working with a lot of marketing leaders in this country over the course of Covid was just like, oh, my entire business changed last night. 00:14:37:10 - 00:15:04:15 Jon How do we continue functioning? How do we adapt to a digital first mindset to instantaneous economic instability, which really does seem like it's kind of been a watchword in Canadian marketing for the last seven years at this point. But watching people need to pick their moment to completely pivot absolutely everything they're doing while still maintaining a sense of comfort and continuity in that we're all the same in all of this together, has been something that I've seen a lot of Canadian marketers excel at over the last several years. 00:15:04:17 - 00:15:30:14 Alison Great insight. Thank you. Now the second paradox is soft about soft power builds really hard results. And everyone in this room is in marketing to advance business and to drive growth. So the report says that as the C-suite is fragmenting with more specialized roles, the person who connects it really can gain power. So, Christie, in some ways that feels a little bit counterintuitive. Shouldn't fragmentation actually dilute marketing's impact? 00:15:30:16 - 00:15:59:08 Krisi Yes, on paper it does to my fragmentation should dilute marketing's impact. But in reality it kind of creates a vacuum. Right? So today's C-suite is incredibly specialized and thus kind of fragmented, right? You have, you know, chief data officers, analytics revenues, sales growth. It's like alphabet soup up there, right? And I think it's important to understand that with each of those specialties become the silos, because they all touch a piece of the customer journey. 00:15:59:08 - 00:16:14:18 Krisi Right. But it's very fragmented. That's very splintered. So I think where marketing's power can grow is the CMO who is able to connect. That entire system is the one that gains the more power, which I think is very, very important. 00:16:14:20 - 00:16:22:20 Alison And Jon, to your earlier point, there is something uniquely Canadian about our ability to do that. So that does set off up for great success in Canada, but also globally, which is 00:16:22:20 - 00:16:23:14 Krisi great to hear. 00:16:23:16 - 00:16:44:21 Jon One of the things that we've had played back to us by multiple Canadian CMOs, because this is, you know, a smaller market from a global perspective. There are lots of hats that everyone needs to wear. And so very often that that singular marketing leader, that...
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EP66 - A New Era for Canadian Marketing with Esther Benzie
04/28/2026
EP66 - A New Era for Canadian Marketing with Esther Benzie
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, outgoing President and CEO of the CMA, sits down with Esther Benzie, the newly appointed President and CEO of the CMA, to discuss the leadership transition and the future of Canada's marketing profession. Esther shares insights from her 30-year career at P&G, CIBC and the Association of Canadian Advertisers and reveals why the opportunity to help marketing "regain its swagger" made accepting this role a resounding yes. The discussion covers groundbreaking data from the CMA Marketing Impact Study, which proves marketing's $130.9 billion economic contribution, and previews the third annual CMA Marketing Week, expanding nationally from Toronto and Vancouver to Montreal. 00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23.640 — 00:02:43.890 · Alison Leadership transitions are really rare moments that can reveal what an organization truly values. Today's episode is one of those amazing moments. So after announcing my retirement plans last September, the CMA Board of Directors launched a very thoughtful search to find the leader who could really build on our association's strong momentum. That search, I'm happy to say, led them to Esther Benzie, and I absolutely could not be more excited about what that means for Canadian marketers. Over the past few years, the CMA team has accomplished a lot together. We've got a lot to be proud of. Our membership has grown to over 460 organizations, we have welcomed more than 100 new members since 2023, and the number of chartered marketers has more than doubled. We also launched the CMA Marketing Week, which has become a national gathering drawing thousands of marketers and earned best in class satisfaction ratings last year, and through the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, we have upscaled more than 2100 marketers from underrepresented groups across the country and supported 700 SMEs with top marketing talent. Those are just a few examples. So clearly the foundation is very strong and now it's about building on that great momentum. That's why Esther was the right choice. She brings over 30 years of marketing leadership, starting with Procter and Gamble, where she built her expertise in brand building and consumer insights. She then went on to lead transformational work as Vice President of Brand and Advertising at CIBC, leading the relaunch of their CIBC brand and the Ambitions Made Real platform. Esther also brings association experience from her time as Acting President and CEO of the Association of Canadian Advertisers, which gives her a really practical understanding of what it takes to serve a membership organization. Esther officially started on March 9th and has absolutely hit the ground running. In her first few weeks, she unveiled her groundbreaking research that quantifies, for the first time ever, the massive economic impact marketing has on Canada. The numbers are staggering and give every marketer in this country the data they need to really further prove our strategic value. I'm supporting Esther through the end of May to ensure a seamless transition, so this conversation feels particularly special. We'll talk about why she wanted the role, what she's learned in her first 60 days, the powerful findings from the CMA Marketing Impact study, and what's ahead as we head into the third annual CMA Marketing Week next week. Esther, welcome to CMA Connect. I'm really looking forward to this conversation. 00:02:44.050 — 00:02:55.610 · Esther Thank you so much, Alison. Transitioning alongside you these past weeks has been amazing, and it's great to see the incredible position that you're leaving the CMA in. 00:02:55.730 — 00:03:21.070 · Alison Well thank you. It's absolutely been a team effort with everyone at the CMA and our absolutely incredible Membership and Board. Esther, in my intro, I shared a bit about the incredible career that you've had, leading marketing for some of the world's most recognized brands and also working on the service provider side of our profession. So I know our listeners will want to learn what attracted you to the CMA and why does leading Canada's largest marketing association feel like the right next chapter for you? 00:03:21.110 — 00:06:13.220 · Esther When I first saw this opportunity, everything just clicked. As I said in one of my interviews on the announcement, it just felt like a really easy "yes" for me. This job brought together my 30 years of building brands, of understanding consumers, of leading teams through transformation. At my P&G experience, I did learn the discipline of brand building. There, it was all about getting to know the consumer and understanding them, the power of strategy, making really good choices and understanding what you were trying to communicate, as well as the importance of execution and really being thoughtful on what you were executing in the market. And we described it as "the who, the what and the how" in some ways. But it was an important legacy for me. And I took that experience to CIBC. As you mentioned in the intro, a big project I had there was modernizing the brand through the restage that touched all 55,000 employees and 8 million clients globally. So I believe that the experiences I've had in those big brands, as well as through my consulting, brought together my love of all aspects of marketing and delivering on consumer needs, driving business growth. So when I heard about this job, there were actually a couple of signs that made this the right next chapter, which I don't even know if I've told you all of them. Alison. The first was last summer. I was speaking to a colleague and I was telling her that my daughter had a summer job in advertising at an ad agency, and she was a VP of Marketing herself, and she said, "Wow, do you really want her to get into marketing?" Like, and she said it like it was something that we shouldn't be encouraging our, our young people to get into. And it made me realize that our profession had an opportunity to regain its swagger. And, you know, at the same time, I was hearing consulting clients and reading about marketing and hearing about all the challenges that they were facing and how they wanted to have a greater impact in the C-suite, and how to think about AI and how to do more with less. And, you know, you wrap that with all the news that was coming about the tariffs and political uncertainty and the need for Canada to be more productive and more innovative, and all that led me to say, wow, you know, we need to get that credibility back, that pride back. And it felt like our profession had been in a bit of a fight for its seat at the table. And so when I saw the CMA opportunity, that this was so much of the belief of the CMA, it just really felt like the right place to be to be able to have an impact on all those areas. 00:06:13.260 — 00:07:07.640 · Alison You hadn't shared the story about your daughter's experience before. It's great that she was excited about advertising. It's disappointing that your friend in the profession wasn't advocating on our behalf. And you're so right that getting our swagger back, being more proud and not being the typical humble Canadians. Being much more proud about what we as a profession deliver to our country's ability to innovate, to businesses and brands' ability to grow. We make tangible, mission critical changes and impacts to our country's GDP, to business growth, brand growth, and certainly to social enterprises as well. And a little bit later in the episode, we'll get into the marketing impact study, but that provides some really important fuel for everyone in our profession to walk a little taller and to really be able to advocate on how mission critical marketing is in Canada. 00:07:07.720 — 00:07:26.680 · Esther Yeah, to be honest, I think my friend's comment was as much a reflection of just a bit of jadedness that people are feeling because a lot of marketers are being asked to do so much more than they were before. And so I think it was a little bit of that. And the fun fact is, her daughter is now going to work in an ad agency this summer too. So maybe I convinced her. 00:07:27.200 — 00:07:27.960 · Alison Well done. 00:07:27.960 — 00:07:47.760 · Esther But, you know, it was just a bit surprising at first. We think of ourselves as being such big advocates. You and I have both had long careers in marketing and have really loved it. And, you know, I wish that for the future generation as well, to have that kind of passion for what we do. Because in my mind, it's such an interesting career. 00:07:48.000 — 00:08:27.790 · Alison I couldn't agree more and I am going to encourage you and our listeners for the interactions I have with younger marketers in our profession. We have an Aim Advisory board that brings together 15 junior marketers across our profession and our member network, and they are so talented. They are so committed. They are absolutely passionate about their role in the importance of marketing. So I do think the future is bright, and maybe some of us older will become a little bit more jaded. Thankfully, the younger generations have not. 00:08:19 - Esther That's great, I agree. Alison We've shared a bit about this, but how else has your experience shaped your thinking about what the CMA should be doing for its members? 00:08:27.830 — 00:11:17.450 · Esther Well, my experience in previous roles was in companies that really reflect our member base. So I had client side experience at a multinational and a Canadian-based company. As you mentioned, I worked at an association and I've been a vendor as well. And so I think those experiences have really shaped how I think about member value and what members are looking for when they join the association. So when I was the member, I valued community, I valued thought leadership, and I always felt like the CMA was a bit of a signal through the noise. There was so much information coming at me constantly, and I found the CMA so helpful in providing resources and that community of marketers that I could speak to about all my issues. So that was my experience as a member. I think with the association, what I saw was a bit of those inner workings of the association and that it's such a tough balance, and I commend you for doing it for the last few years, of being able to serve such diverse member needs while staying relevant, and the importance of the advocacy work that happens behind the scenes. And I think what both those experiences taught me is as an association, the CMA needs to operate at multiple altitudes simultaneously for different audiences, you know. But by that, I mean we're day to day with practical resources, right? Whether it's our AI playbooks or some of our certificate courses or some of our how to guides. But we also need to be 3000ft and thinking in the future when we think of influencing policy and, you know, some of the research that has been identified and all that we have to do to to maintain the ethical standards of marketing. So I think all those experiences help me realize that while we have three great pillars of community influence and standards of excellence, different people from our member organizations need different levels of support. 00:10:42 - Esther And whether that's, you know, somebody who's a junior marketer or a CMO, they need different levels of support at different points in their career, and I think the CMA does an amazing job of delivering against that. I just want us to be that indispensable partner that makes every Canadian marketer more effective, more confident and offer more value to their organization, because that's what's going to keep us as an association, thriving, as well as keeping marketing as a profession thriving. 00:11:17.850 — 00:11:31.410 · Alison I couldn't agree more on being almost four years in the role. One thing I can vouch for is it's an incredibly exciting role. Time flies by and you will never, ever be bored. Coming up on 60 days, you're already sensing that. 00:11:31.410 — 00:11:53.200 · Esther I'm already sensing that. And it's so fun to get out. And yes, we spent a lot of time talking and listening to our members and what their needs are. And there's just so much energy out there for the profession and a desire to have an impact. And it's been just really, really exciting to hear it all. 00:11:53.240 — 00:12:13.320 · Alison And those conversations really fuel where we can identify areas that we can improve upon, where we see gaps that we can help fill from a profession's perspective as well. So building on that, you're almost at your first 60 days with the CMA. What have been some of your biggest observations or surprises that you've gotten about the Association and our Members so far? 00:12:13.440 — 00:14:11.200 · Esther Well, these first few weeks have been and they've been so exciting in the best possible way. I would say my biggest observation is just how much of a genuine connection people have for the CMA, and how invested they all are in its success and in marketing success. And it's true of our staff, our Members, our Chartered Marketers, and even our Board. You know, as you know, I since I arrived, I met with every employee and they they speak so highly of the culture that has been created And a lot of that is a tribute to you, Alison, and the and the leadership team. When I got appointed, I received so many unsolicited notes from members, and all the comments just made me realize how important the CMA has been to them. And I know I shared some of them with you, but just some really beautiful remarks about how important the CMA is and how passionate they are, how when they have to make choices on their time, this is where they want to spend it. And I think that's been a real surprise. And it's true. I was at an event today, and I got comments about how much our members value the community and connections. So, you know, I think it's throughout those different groups, we hear it and and even when we talk to our Board, who are some of Canada's top senior marketing leaders, they're choosing to give up their precious volunteer time to work with us because they believe in the mission and the need to future-proof the profession so strongly. So I think that's been the biggest surprise. It's just that collective pride and passion that I see throughout the different stakeholders. And it's really not something you can manufacture. It's the result of years of the CMA showing up consistently. 00:14:11.760 — 00:14:31.680 · Alison So incredibly gratifying to hear. The team has worked and continues to work incredibly hard. And our goal is to achieve exactly what you have described. So to hear that you are getting that unprompted feedback across the membership is very, very much appreciated. So thank you and thank you to the members for reaching out. 00:14:31.720 — 00:14:59.390 · Esther And I hope that they continue to reach out. I know that for me, that's such a great learning. We talked to some of our Chartered Marketers yesterday and the feedback from them was incredible. I loved hearing things like, I'm in more rooms now. I'm a part of more conversations because I'm a Chartered Marketer, or I've now had the ability to get a promotion or a raise because I had my Charter Marketer. I mean, those that level of pride is pretty amazing. 00:14:59.550 — 00:15:14.470 · Alison And the doors and opportunities that's opening as Canada's only professional marketing designation is resonating, which is great to hear. So I know it's still early days, but as you look ahead, what's a new opportunity or priority that you've identified that you think we should be tackling? 00:15:14.470 — 00:17:44.900 · Esther So I've been thinking about this a lot from my listening and learning tour, and as I'm still listening, this will continue to evolve. But the opportunity I see right now is reaching more marketers across Canada. Uh, you know, the study that S ignal 49 conducted showing the marketing impact in Canada, it revealed that more than 861,000 jobs in this country are marketing jobs. So that's 1 in 25. And the CMA is the largest marketing association. And yet our members only represent about 40,000 marketers. That's just 5% of the entire community. And as much as we advocate and have impact on the broader community, even if they're not a member, uh, I still think there's a huge upside to be that catalyst to help marketers thrive today and in the future by increasing our presence across the country and having an impact on more marketers so that they can benefit from all the amazing work that the CMA is doing. Just to give you a couple of examples, within the recent Ipsos survey that suggested only about a third of marketers have any formal training, we have the Chartered Marketer program, digital certificates, a robust learning plan. Those are all things that all marketers should take advantage of, and I want more members to be able to see that there's a new privacy bill this summer, and we need to represent business and consumer in the ethical use of data and AI. That's another place where we can have such a huge impact. And finally, marketers tell us how much they want to connect with each other. And we have events, councils and committees where that sharing can happen. So there's a huge opportunity for us to reach more marketers across Canada. Have every CMO walk into their boardroom with data that proves marketing is an economic growth engine, and that we have every young marketer seeing that they have a clear path to professional growth, and that we have every business seeing that great marketing is a core growth driver. 00:17:45.300 — 00:18:03.140 · Alison You've identified such an important area with every new member organization that joins, it means we can do even more to advance and represent the marketing profession. And it also means that even more marketers are going to be benefiting from everything that we're already doing. So I love that as a one of your early priorities. 00:18:03.260 — 00:18:29.780 · Esther Yeah. And, you know, as the study showed, like there's so many marketers outside of Ontario and in other communities. And, you know, I was amazed by the stat that we have Chartered Marketers in every province and territory. And so we know that the great work that the CMA is doing can touch the Canadian economy across the board. And I think that's a that's an exciting opportunity. 00:18:30.060 — 00:19:25.200 · Alison Absolutely. Now you've mentioned a bit about the marketing impact study, and I'd love to dig into that even more deeply. I know our listeners are definitely going to be interested. So we announced the study shortly after you joined in March, and it was a partnership between the CMA and the Conference Board of Canada, which is now known as Signal 49, and this was the first comprehensive look at marketing's economic contribution to Canada. And as I mentioned in the opening, the findings are so incredibly important and compelling. So marketing activity generated 130.9 billion in GDP in 2024, which means marketing is rivalling sectors like retail trade, oil and gas. And that's often not the understanding. So to now have the data to back that up is really important. So as the voice of this research to the media and our members, why do you think the study matters so much for our profession? 00:19:25.240 — 00:21:06.530 · Esther Well, Alison, you mentioned some of the key stats, but I think the first piece of the report is, it's so validating for...
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EP65 - Loyalty, Adaptability, and Growth with Lindsay Chase
04/14/2026
EP65 - Loyalty, Adaptability, and Growth with Lindsay Chase
What have you learned that has allowed you to adapt and evolve in your marketing career? In today's episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, sits down virtually with Lindsay Chase, Senior Strategist at Elemental, to explore her nine year journey at Elemental. They dive into her progression from Account Executive to Senior Strategist, her loyalty to her craft, her adaptability, and her pursuit of what truly matters. 00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23.520 — 00:02:20.140 · Alison For today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome Lindsay Chase, Senior Strategist at Elemental and our 2025 CMA AIM Award winner. The AIM Award celebrates achievement of marketing by a rising star in our profession, who is absolutely destined for great leadership roles. Lindsay's speech at the CMA Awards show was equal parts inspiring, entertaining and compelling, and I know that our conversation will be that as well. Lindsay's journey into marketing began with a background in English literature. She was drawn by what she describes as the fascinating blend of creativity meeting science that defines modern marketing. She's passionate about delivering strong business results through compelling storytelling, creating human narratives that really resonate in meaningful ways. Lindsay describes her nine year tenure at Elemental as making her a bit of a unicorn in today's agency world, and I absolutely agree for a much longer tenure in one agency than is typically the case, since most people switch about every two years instead of taking that approach. Lindsay has built her career elemental, progressing from account executive to senior strategist. Her insights into how her generation is learning and developing skills offers a really fascinating window into the future of marketing careers. Like all of us, Lindsay is experiencing firsthand how AI has begun reshaping marketing practices, making them more uniform, scalable, and streamlined, while also raising critical questions about skill development and strategic thinking. Her perspective on the importance of mentorship in a rapidly changing landscape, as well as how to maintain strategic thinking in an increasingly automated world, makes this conversation as essential listening for anyone interested in marketing's future. And I can also share with our listeners that when you listen to Lindsay, by the end of this conversation, like me, you will feel very, very positive and optimistic about how bright our future marketing is with talented marketers like Lindsay rising through the ranks. So welcome, Lindsay. It is absolutely wonderful to have you join us on CMA Connect. 00:02:20.180 — 00:02:25.140 · Lindsay Thank you Alison, it's wonderful to be here. And I'm looking very forward to our conversation today. 00:02:25.260 — 00:02:36.020 · Alison Let's start with your story. I'd love to hear what drew you to marketing, and how did you see this as an opportunity to really transform your English literature degree and love of stories into a career? 00:02:36.180 — 00:03:22.820 · Lindsay Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I tend to start with saying I didn't choose marketing because I loved ads. I feel very few people maybe do make that choice for that reason. I actually chose it because I've always loved stories. And marketing is where stories can really change outcomes in English Lit. I learned how to read between the lines subtext. Motivation. Character tension. the gap between what people say and what they mean. So that to me was basically consumer insight in a lot of ways. And marketing gave me a way to take that skill and kind of apply it to real people, real decisions and real businesses. It's effectively storytelling with consequences. So all of that to say, what definitely drew me in is a mix of that empathy and structure, and you can really feel something and prove it in marketing. 00:03:22.860 — 00:03:48.260 · Alison I absolutely love your definition of storytelling with consequences and beyond consequences, it's storytelling with an ability to have such a significant and important impact on brands and businesses, our economy, and ultimately our communities. So I love that definition. Thank you. I'm also curious, when you were graduating, was marketing and agency roles in particular a career that many of your fellow graduates were thinking of pursuing? 00:03:48.380 — 00:04:35.790 · Lindsay Another great question. Certainly a few, but admittedly, many of my peers went into, you know, the worlds of tech, finance, law adjacent paths and so on. I found that in discussions with them, agency life wasn't necessarily the obvious route. Marketing can definitely feel like a less defined path, and that ambiguity can be intimidating when you're graduating and everyone's asking, what are you going to do? And you want to have that very kind of clear answer ideally. I also think a lot of people don't realize that marketing is a training ground. You get exposure to categories, audiences, channels, leadership styles and real business problems very quickly. So it's certainly an area that, you know, though sometimes maybe discounted is one very much worth its salt. And I hope that more, more folks explore when they are looking at that graduation period in their life. 00:04:35.830 — 00:04:40.990 · Alison Now, I'd also love to hear what it meant to you to be recognized with the CMA AIM Award. 00:04:41.030 — 00:05:44.880 · Lindsay Yeah, that was a great honour and even better evening and congrats to the CMA for making it such a fun and impactful evening. But to me, I'd say the CMA Award was never just an individual recognition in reference to the speech I gave. If no one's sick of hearing it at this point, you know, I referenced the idea that if I've seen further, it's because I've stood on the shoulders of giants and that's genuinely how I view it. Any progress I've made has been shaped by the people around me, and that goes multifold. For the mentors who pushed my thinking, the teammates who challenged my ideas and the clients that trusted the process. And that's really what the industry is at its best, is that collective effort to make something better than any one person could on their own. So in reflection of the award, it certainly felt like that, you know, not just the work, but the environment that makes the work possible. And the CMA, to me represents that spirit of creativity, collaboration and a shared standard of excellence. So it was a great honour and great excitement for myself and all those that I got to celebrate with. 00:05:45.120 — 00:06:24.840 · Alison It was definitely a good celebration and certainly a well deserved celebration. Now, Lindsay, you mentioned that marketing wasn't the most popular choice among your peers, in large part because it really can be pretty overwhelming for students to understand what marketing roles are, given the breadth and certainly complexity of our profession. Obviously, from a CMA perspective, from a professional perspective, we do want to be a desired destination for students in the months and years ahead. So what do you think we can do to help the next generation better understand and navigate this complexity and make more competitive and desirable on par with tech and finance when it comes to talent? 00:06:25.120 — 00:07:29.450 · Lindsay I think we have to stop explaining marketing like it's a list of job titles. You know, it's more of a system overall. And the best way to maybe demystify it is to teach some of those fundamentals - human behaviour, business strategy, creative problem solving, and the measurement of all those things. Once you can get a grasp on those four pillars, every specialization becomes less overwhelming, especially to those who maybe don't have the full visibility or insight. And when it comes to tech and finance, you know, specifically, I find that they can sell certainty, you know. Clear ladders, clear compensation narratives, prestige signals. You know, all the things that go into that. And I think where marketing can expand is by selling its impact. You know, you get to shape culture and build brands that people live with and drive real business outcomes, just like tech and finance can. So if we want that talent and future marketers to walk through our doors, I think we need to show that marketing is certainly anything but fluff and a great opportunity to build a career and life around. 00:07:29.530 — 00:07:56.770 · Alison That was so well said, and it's also incredibly timely. We have recently launched the CMA Marketing Impact Study that does exactly that. It quantifies the mission critical role that marketing plays in building Canadian businesses, increasing our country's ability to innovate, and dramatically contributing to our economy and GDP. So that will give us some very valuable tools to really entice the next generation of talent to. 00:07:56.810 — 00:08:20.940 · Lindsay Yeah, it's a great effort, and I think the other piece is being willing and ready to have some fun with it. You know, I think of all the ads and jingles and brands that stick in my head as some of my favourites, and it's not just a moment in time. It really does stay with us as we move through our lives, and it's something that everyone hopefully will get more and more clarity around and be interested in. 00:08:21.260 — 00:08:36.780 · Alison Absolutely. Now, you've been at Elemental for nine years and you started as an account exec, moved to Senior Strategy and calling yourself a bit of a unicorn for how long you've been with one agency. So what's kept you engaged for nine years, and why have you chosen this less traditional approach? 00:08:36.820 — 00:09:44.350 · Lindsay I stayed with Elemental through many different roles and seasons of it, because I ultimately kept getting new problems to solve and people that I worked with, I really wanted to solve those problems with. You know, the work changes, the clients change, the ambitions change. And that's one of the most appealing things about marketing on a whole is no one day looks the same, so I never felt like I was repeating a year. It also certainly helped that Elemental is the kind of place where you can be multidimensional. I didn't have to pick one identity early, and I think why that really worked for me is I didn't chase a title as much as I chased the skill stack. I wanted to understand the whole machine, not just one part of it. And that's kind of what made the less traditional or unicorn path, for lack of a better phrase, something that made sense for me. I could connect the dots across, you know, account leadership to creative and strategy and just work with wonderful humans all along the way, so that that was something that was important to me in my personal growth, was understanding that it's not just that title, it really is about that personal development and professional development as you move through day to day and week to week. 00:09:44.390 — 00:10:25.280 · Alison It's such a smart approach to build your marketing toolkit, but more importantly, to build your ability to evolve and be curious and learn new skills. That's always been so important to a successful career in marketing. And when we look at the dramatic change AI and elsewhere is bringing to not just marketing but the world at large, the ability to pivot and be comfortable with ambiguity and be open to change will serve you very well in the years ahead too. Now, you chose marketing for the blend of creativity meets science and the important role it has in building business. So let me hear a bit about the work that you're proudest of and the impact that it's had. 00:10:25.520 — 00:11:59.170 · CHECK THIS SECTION Yeah, I'll start higher level in that, you know, overall, I'm most proud of work that connects emotionally and drives the outcomes that we've all set out to achieve together. One without the other, to me, means we didn't really hit the nail on the head. So overarching certainly the work that kind of connects those two paths. And then as far as specific work, you know, I was reflecting the other day on some work we did for Meridian and we launched a campaign called World of Numbers, which was very exciting because it really did reframe a traditional kind of transactional category of FI into something human and relatable, helping us kind of differentiate the brand and strengthen engagement. A similar answer goes for some of the work we do with Canada Life. Um, Life Doesn't Move in a Straight Line, really just capturing that human insight and truth that no matter who you are, the differences and similarities can be there. But you know, it does look different for every Canadian. So making a brand feel a little bit more empathetic and relevant, especially in these, uh, wild and fast times, is certainly some of the work I'm very proud of and in both cases didn't just resonate creatively, it helped shift perception and build a stronger connection with their audiences. We saw amazing brand lift, not to distill it all down to one KPI, but, um, I'm excited to continue kind of measuring that growth and working through unique challenges like that for clients that are trying to understand how do we show that we understand the Canadian consumer in a time where everything can feel quite overwhelming. 00:11:59.250 — 00:12:10.610 · Alison Now, some of my most powerful learning has come from the mistakes I've made along the way. So do you have a lesson that you've learned the hard way, that you'd be open to sharing? And hopefully by sharing, spare someone else from making the same mistake? 00:12:10.770 — 00:13:06.380 · Lindsay Where to start? There have been many lessons along the way. I think I would prioritize probably two for the next generation of marketers, because it's something that you certainly learn the hard way, I would say in every instance. But I'll start with I learned that a smart strategy can still fail if it's too complex to activate. So while you may have this, you know, wonderful and compelling idea, if you cannot translate that to execution, it doesn't really matter how wonderful that strategy appeals. So that would be number one. And then I'd say number two, learning to kill ideas that I loved if they weren't true to the audience, you know. In marketing and advertising, we love all of our children. But it often comes down to what is going to resonate with our target audience, and bearing them in mind and not carrying any personal biases through the process is always a good reminder to those starting out their careers. 00:13:06.420 — 00:13:20.380 · Alison Those are such great lessons learned, Lindsay, thank you very much for sharing. Now, I know from our conversations that mentorship is hugely important to you and crucial to helping build future marketing leaders as well. So how have you been fitted for mentorship so far in your career? 00:13:20.580 — 00:14:17.110 · Lindsay Mentorship, I would say, is one of the most important facets of marketing, certainly, but really any industry that somebody could be entering. It really helped me build confidence faster than I ever could have alone. I've said, you know, internally to some of my mentors themselves, you know, that I'm very thankful for the fact that they gave me language for what I was sensing but couldn't necessarily articulate yet. And the right mentor doesn't just give answers. They teach you how to think, how to frame a problem, and how to hold your own in rooms you haven't necessarily earned on paper yet. Um, so I've benefited from working with some fantastic people along the way. You know, Dustin Brown, Debbie Bolton and so on. So I just feel incredibly blessed to have had that opportunity. And I think mentorship is certainly a cornerstone of marketing, and that more and more folks should look for opportunities to mentor and be a mentee. 00:14:17.350 — 00:14:40.870 · Alison Now, I've had great mentors, and I've also really enjoyed being a mentor, and I joked with many of my mentees that I actually probably learned more from them than they learned from me. With our industry evolving so rapidly, that's even more true. Senior marketers are learning alongside junior colleagues to a greater degree than ever before. So how do you think that might change the mentor and mentee relationship? 00:14:40.950 — 00:15:37.030 · Lindsay Yeah, it's a great question. I think, you know, the traditional perspective of mentorship and mentee relationships is that there's certainly more of a hierarchy there. Maybe, you know, a mentee is there more to listen, versus the mentor is there more to instruct? And to your point, Alison, I think where we are today, mentorship is much more collaborative. You know, juniors might be faster at certain tools, whereas seniors might be stronger at judgment and taste. And I find that the best new mentor relationships are less top down and more, for lack of a better phrase, copilots. You know, you trade strengths and seniors help with some of those decision making frameworks, while juniors can help with new workflows and platform fluency. I swear every other day a new platform emerges. But it really helps keep everybody humble and there are information gaps for all of us. And I think having the self-awareness to address that does really lead to pushing everybody forward and all boats rising. 00:15:37.470 — 00:15:50.430 · Alison I love your concept of copilots versus mentor/mentee. We launched our CMA Mentorship Program at the end of last year, and we've got hundreds of people, members engaged and loving it. Maybe we'll think of a rebrand for next year. 00:15:50.470 — 00:15:52.590 · Lindsay There you go. Free of charge. 00:15:54.840 — 00:15:58.160 · Alison CMA CAO Barry is cringing right now as he listens to this. 00:16:00.600 — 00:16:04.480 · Lindsay Hopefully not too badly, but yeah. Copilots, you can have it. 00:16:04.520 — 00:16:05.640 · Alison I love it. 00:16:07.000 — 00:16:16.160 · Alison So it's no surprise that AI is transforming many professions and certainly ours. So how is your role and daily work evolving as a result of AI? 00:16:16.560 — 00:17:07.650 · Lindsay Yeah, AI is, you know, well, it's changing everything to put it plainly. But what I found most is it's changing how quickly we can move from sort of a blank page to first draft in some of our marketing efforts. It's kind of compressing that messy middle, so to speak. You know, when I look at what it's changed for us as an agency and myself in my day to day, it's certainly on some of the pieces, like production, but it's definitely not replacing what matters. CHECK THIS SECTION And I tend to say that's sort of the beginning of the journey. The insight, the taste, the strategy and the ability to choose the right direction. You know, AI can offer, here is many different paths that you can take or here are multiple different creative executions. But ultimately it's the marketers and the experts and humans that really keep that ability to choose the right path forward. 00:17:07.689 — 00:17:26.650 · Alison So, Lindsay, eons ago when I started my career, I learned so much through doing, hands on experience, trial and error, those important teachable moments. With AI starting to take on some of that initial "doing" work, how do you think your generation will learn and develop those fundamental marketing instincts? 00:17:26.890 — 00:18:35.370 · Lindsay Yeah, I think it's such a great question, you know, instincts come from...
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EP64 - Deceptive Marketing Exposed with Josephine Palumbo
03/25/2026
EP64 - Deceptive Marketing Exposed with Josephine Palumbo
In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Josephine Palumbo, Deputy Commissioner for the Deceptive Marketing Practices Directorate at the Competition Bureau of Canada, to decode Canadian origin claims and emerging fraud threats. Josephine explains the critical distinctions between "Made in Canada" and "Product of Canada," how tariffs impact threshold calculations, and practical guidance for avoiding maple washing. The conversation expands to the Bureau's Fraud Prevention Month focus, including the alarming rise of AI-generated scams using deep fakes to impersonate government officials. 00:00:01.720 — 00:00:20.280 · Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22.880 — 00:02:16.740 · Alison In an era of renewed Canadian patriotism and heightened awareness of global supply chains, consumers are absolutely paying closer attention than ever to where their products are coming from. With ongoing tariff discussions, a growing desire to support domestic industries, Made in Canada and Product of Canada claims have become more than just marketing messages. They are promises that Canadians absolutely expect businesses to keep. For this episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Josephine Palumbo, Deputy Commissioner for the Deceptive Marketing Practices Directorate at the Competition Bureau of Canada. In her pivotal role, Josephine leads efforts to detect, investigate, and deter false or misleading representations and deceptive marketing practices across Canada. With over 25 years of experience at the Department of Justice and Competition Bureau, including significant work as Deputy Executive Director and Senior Litigation Counsel. Josephine has been at the forefront of major enforcement actions involving companies like Amazon, Ticketmaster and Volkswagen. Josephine expertise extends globally. She served as president of the International Consumer Protection and Enforcement Network in 2020, representing Canada among over 65 protection agencies worldwide. Her directorate's mandate includes enforcement under the Competition Act, Consumer Packaging and Labeling Act, the Precious Metals Marketing Act, and Textile Labeling Act, which gives her comprehensive oversight of marketing claims that matter the most to Canadian consumers. So as we navigate an increasingly complex marketplace where maple washing and misleading origin claims can absolutely undermine consumer trust. Josephine's insights into what constitutes truthful advertising, along with the real world consequences of getting it wrong, have never been more relevant for Canadian marketers, so I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Josephine. It is a pleasure to host you on CMA Connect, and I'm really looking forward to our conversation. 00:02:16.780 — 00:02:20.780 · Josephine I'm so glad to be here, Alison. I'm looking forward to our talk. 00:02:20.940 — 00:02:44.220 · Alison We're going to cover a lot of hot topics that are crucial and important to marketers in Canada and also Canadians, so I know we will have a rapt audience. So, Josephine, let's start with why Made in Canada and Product of Canada claims matter so much to both consumers and businesses. Obviously, with renewed Canadian patriotism at the forefront of everyone's mind, how does today's environment compare to what you've seen historically? 00:02:44.260 — 00:03:53.790 · Josephine Well, let me start by saying that in the past, country of origin claims may not have been top of mind for most consumers, but today, Alison, Canadians are far more focused on transparency, on authenticity and knowing where their products truly come from. There are many factors driving this trend today, and I can list some of them, including national pride and that desire to support Canadian made goods. The commitment to support the Canadian job market and local industry's concerns about the economy and environmental impacts of purchasing decisions, and the belief that Canadian made products are held to higher standards of quality for businesses. I would say honesty and clearly representing product origin builds consumer trust and helps them steer clear of legal complications, which is always a good thing. On the other hand, misleading claims risk harming consumers, their fair competitors and the wider market and could result in enforcement under the Competition Act and the other relevant legislation when representations are false or misleading. 00:03:53.830 — 00:04:31.240 · Alison That's very helpful, and it's really rewarding in many ways to hear that Canadians, and we've seen this in other research too, Canadians through the tariffs, through the challenging political and economic times, are really embracing Made in Canada and wanting to give back to the local businesses and brands and support our local economy as well. So there's lots of encouraging reasons for the renewed patriotism that's hopefully having a positive impact on Canada's GDP as well. Josephine: Absolutely. Alison: Now, many people don't realize that there's quite a significant distinction between a Made in Canada claim and a Product of Canada claim. Can you explain the difference and what businesses need to know? 00:04:31.280 — 00:06:27.660 · Josephine Sure. I would say that the distinctions are significant, and they're clearly laid out in the Competition Bureau's guidelines that have been updated in March of 2025, so last year. So let me start. And it's a little technical. So Product of Canada is what I refer to as the gold standard. It means virtually all, at least 98% of the direct production costs, including input or materials and labor, are from Canada. This threshold exists to protect consumers from being misled by claims that imply total Canadian origin. On the other side, we have Made in Canada, which indicates that the majority or 51% or more of the direct costs were Canadian, and this type of claim should be accompanied by a qualifying statement, such as Made in Canada from domestic and imported parts to accurately inform consumers. I should say that both Product of Canada and Made in Canada representations, the product's last substantial transformation occurs in Canada, and that is the product comes into being in Canada. It isn't merely assembled or labeled or packaged here, it is made into something meaningfully new. And here, Alison, let me just say, for businesses, it's essential to review the cost breakdowns regularly to ensure compliance with these thresholds, especially if sourcing changes are occurring. We at the Competition Bureau, we evaluate these claims based not only on the literal meaning of marketing materials, but also on how consumers might interpret such claims. So we would be looking at everything like the words, mix of words, images, illustrations, or even the overall layout. And this is what we call the general impression. So again, it's very important. Clarity and honesty are paramount. 00:06:28.220 — 00:06:39.900 · Alison One of the newer claims I've seen emerging with renewed Canadian patriotism over the last year and a bit is Packaged in Canada. So when might those claims be considered misleading to consumers? 00:06:39.900 — 00:08:17.840 · Josephine So Packaged in Canada for us means like a product arrived mostly finished from another country and only its packaging was added locally. This claim, we would say, could be misleading to consumers if not clearly explained. So the Bureau again encourages the use of qualified claims where the information provided is accurate, relevant and useful. Let me say that the Bureau again, it looks at not only the words, but the whole concept, the general impression created. Sometimes businesses don't realize or understand this and think that as long as they are truthful, that should be good enough and that is not always the case. Again, the general impression has to be taken into consideration. For example, one case that we litigated, well, we didn't litigate, but we settled this case, and that was in 2016. So the Bureau investigated Moose Knuckles for concerns relating to advertising and labeling of some of its parkas as Made in Canada. And here, Alison, the Bureau found some Moose Knuckle parkas were marketed as Canadian- made, despite being mostly manufactured elsewhere, only with the finishing touches to the jackets being made here in Canada, like adding the trim or the zipper and the snaps, those were done in Canada. And with the Competition Bureau, we resolve the matter with the company, who agreed to donate 750,000 over a five year period to Canadian charities, including those providing winter coats to children in need. The company also committed to clearly labeling and advertising, making it explicit when products are made with both Canadian and imported parts. 00:08:17.920 — 00:08:52.770 · Alison That's a great example that speaks to the importance of being fair and truthful to Canadians and how we're marketing, but also the important consequences that businesses will and should pay when they don't follow the letter of the law. Now, for our listeners, we also have an article that we've written around all of the different Made in Canada, Product of Canada claims that elaborates on some of what Josephine has shared. So we will add it into our listener notes for anyone that's listening and wants to read more. We'll have the link in our notes. So, Josephine, what are some of the common mistakes you've seen businesses make when they've made origin claims? 00:08:52.770 — 00:09:46.010 · Josephine So businesses often make mistakes by failing to provide, for example, appropriate qualifying statements using ambiguous language or misunderstanding the threshold requirements that I discussed earlier. A common issue is overstating the Canadian aspect by relying solely on packaging, a minor modifications or last minute assembly that does not meet the threshold for substantial transformation, which I also mentioned earlier. Here's an example I can give you to illustrate this point. So consider a situation where the t-shirt is imported into Canada, and then the business prints an image on it. So this last edition of the image is not a substantial transformation. It was a t-shirt before and it is still a t-shirt after the image was added. Therefore, Printed in Canada or Designed in Canada would be more appropriate in that circumstance. 00:09:46.130 — 00:09:58.300 · Alison That's a very helpful example. Can you walk us through how the current tariff situation impacts the threshold calculation requirements for these claims, and how you take into account both production and manufacturing costs? 00:09:58.540 — 00:11:07.030 · Josephine Yes, that's a really important question, Alison. First, we need to understand that tariffs on imported materials should be included in the cost of non-Canadian content used in the production or manufacturing of products in Canada. Next, we need to know that tariffs can have a direct impact on the costs associated with imported materials, which in turn, of course, may affect the calculation of that Canadian content that we discussed earlier. When tariffs rise, the cost of those imported goods goes up as well, potentially lowering the overall percentage of Canadian direct costs in the finished product. So here I would say businesses should track and recalculate the production costs whenever tariff rates change. Otherwise, a product that previously met the threshold for the Made in Canada or Product of Canada might fall below that line, rendering the claim potentially false or misleading. So we as a law enforcement agency, expect businesses to proactively monitor these changes and adjust their origin claims and that any accompanying qualifying statements so that they do not inadvertently mislead consumers. 00:11:07.070 — 00:11:22.350 · Alison Now, we've talked a lot about the business side of the claim, so I'd like to switch gears a little bit and ask you what advice do you have for Canadians to protect themselves from false or misleading origin claims? And what should they do if they suspect a case of maple washing? 00:11:22.430 — 00:12:33.120 · Josephine Well, here, let me say that consumers play a key role in holding the marketplace accountable. So in order to be able to identify that something is wrong, one needs to know what is right. And we therefore encourage consumers, just like businesses and advertisers, to obtain an understanding of the meaning of the relevant terms like Product of Canada and Made in Canada. I would encourage consumers to look at the Bureau's web page on this topic. Information there is written in plain language with accessibility considerations taken into account. I would say scrutinize claims that Made in Canada or maple marketing, especially if details seem vague, or too good to be true. I would also say ask questions about the origin of the product, and seek out companies willing to provide honest and clear answers about sourcing. Consumers can also review product labeling for qualifying statements. If you suspect that there's a deceptive practice, consumers can, of course, file a complaint with the Bureau. Reporting suspicious claims, helps others, and supports a fair, competitive marketplace. So it's really, really important to to report to the Bureau and where appropriate, we will take the necessary enforcement action. 00:12:33.160 — 00:12:52.050 · Alison Now, given the renewed Canadian patriotism, we focused a lot of our conversations so far around Product of Canada and origin claims, but you have a much broader lens, so I'd love you to share what other consumer complaints are top of mind from a marketing perspective, because that's such a valuable and important learning for all of our listeners to understand. 00:12:52.090 — 00:13:52.060 · Josephine Happy to share some additional areas of interest and focus for the Bureau. Alongside the Made in Canada claims, Canadians we know are becoming increasingly concerned about misleading pricing tactics such as drip pricing and incorrect disclosures of ordinary selling price. The Bureau's information centre also frequently receives complaints related to deceptive or misleading environmental claims or greenwashing. Fake online reviews is another area of focus for us. It's important for companies to recognize that consumers expect transparency at every stage, including advertising, sales, warranties and support strategies. I would say that relying on ambiguity or the omission of key details, can undermine consumer trust and may result in legal consequences, so should be avoided. Again, to maintain credibility, businesses should thoroughly review and clearly substantiate their claims while keeping their marketing materials up to date with evolving regulations and consumer expectations. 00:13:52.060 — 00:14:57.790 · Alison And beyond it being the right and legal thing to do. We also know from some CMA research how savvy consumers and Canadians are, and they are absolutely holding brands and businesses accountable to be truthful. And when they feel they can't trust a brand in business, they will desert them. 87% of Canadians, if they have one reason to not feel a business or brand is trustworthy anymore, they will stop being a customer and they will talk about it. So if our listeners need any other motivation and I know they don't, it's in every marketer's best interest to be truthful and authentic in their approach. And all the good marketers that we work with are held by the CMA Code of Ethics, and absolutely don't just do this because it's smart business, but because it's the right thing to do as well. So as a long standing member of the Fraud Prevention Forum, the CMA is actively engaged in this year's campaign and excited that we're now in Fraud Prevention Month and beyond Fraud Prevention Month, we're looking to stay very actively engaged. So what should Canadians and businesses expect from the Competition Bureau, both now in Fraud Prevention Month but also in the months ahead? 00:14:57.830 — 00:17:18.970 · Josephine So as you mentioned, March is Fraud Prevention Month and the Bureau as Co-Chair, alongside the RCMP and the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre, joins forces with more than 80 partners from the public and private sector across Canada. The aim is to educate and help Canadians and businesses spot and avoid fraud. This year marks the 22nd year of the campaign where people can expect online resources about scams and criminal deceptive marketing. Let me say here that fraud is one of the fastest growing crimes in Canada, but it often goes unnoticed. It's hidden behind convincing technology or in everyday online interactions, and many cases go unreported even though they cause serious harm. And the Bureau, along with its many partners, including the CMA, will be encouraging Canadians to recognize, reject and report fraud. It's important also to say here, Alison, that anyone can be a victim of fraud, individuals, businesses and organizations. And the harm isn't just financial. It can also be emotional and psychological. And that's why fraud awareness must happen year round and Fraud Prevention Month remains vital. It becomes, for us, a national moment of focus that brings attention, partners and momentum all together. So for businesses again, the Bureau will also be sharing best practices, compliance guides and reminders to uphold honest marketing and fair competition. I can say here, and I should add, scams are growing in scale, crossing borders and becoming more convincing through AI such as impersonation, fake investment scams to fake employment scams. And earlier this month, we published a public alert about the growing threat of AI generated government impersonators, including the highest government officials, to our Prime Minister. The piece really explains how scammers are now using deep fakes, clone voices and fake governmental style websites to trick people into giving up their money and their personal information. And the alert basically walks Canadians through the red flags to watch for like unnatural video movements, odd sounding audio or suspicious website URLs and reminds everybody to verify messages through official channels. It's an important update, and I encourage everybody to visit the Bureau's site for full information. 00:17:19.050 — 00:17:32.970 · Alison Josephine, you're so right that the frauds are becoming so much more sophisticated, and absolutely any one of us can be susceptible and taken in by a fraud. What do you think holds Canadians back from reporting it when it happens to them? 00:17:33.170 — 00:18:21.660 · Josephine That's a good question. And, you know, we know from the statistics that only 5 to 10% of frauds get reported to law enforcement, whether it's the Bureau, Police Agencies or the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre. Having practiced in this area for a while and being part of the campaign, I can tell you it's a number of things. It's sometimes it comes to embarrassment, so the victims don't want to come forward and say that they fell for this scam. Other times, it's about the amount of money they may have lost and it wasn't so huge. So it's not worth taking the effort of reporting to law enforcement. And this is what is absolutely wrong. Because if you don't report to law enforcement, we can't get ahead of it and we can't stop it. So again, the message is to report, report to the Bureau, report to the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre or to your local police. 00:18:21.780 — 00:18:30.700 · Alison And if it's helpful to our listeners, we can include a link to the alert that you spoke...
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EP63 - IBM's blueprint for scaling AI in marketing with Alexis Zamkow and Miglena Nikolova
03/04/2026
EP63 - IBM's blueprint for scaling AI in marketing with Alexis Zamkow and Miglena Nikolova
Are you prepared to future-proof your brand with AI? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with IBM's AI experts Alexis Zamkow, Global Offering Leader for Intelligent Marketing at IBM Consulting, and Miglena Nikolova, Senior Portfolio Advisory Marketing Lead at IBM Canada, to explore how marketers can move from AI experimentation to real business impact. With 70% of creative work being busy work, IBM has used AI to slash legal approval cycles from 6 weeks to 6 days. As ChatGPT challenges Google's search dominance, marketers need to learn how to 'market to machines' that are making decisions for consumers. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:25:15 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:25:17 - 00:00:51:01 Alison In today's episode, we explore a topic that is top of mind for all marketers - how to future-proof ourselves, our teams and our businesses, especially when it comes to Gen AI. Our CMA research found that future-proofing is a top priority for 97% of Canadian marketers. This includes understanding how technologies like AI are impacting marketing, as well as changing consumer behaviours and best practices. 00:00:51:03 - 00:01:24:14 Alison The good news is that 74% of CMA members are using Gen AI tools for work at least weekly. This actually exceeds the average of 62% among Canadian knowledge workers that include academics, physicians, engineers, and scientists. So we're certainly off to a good start, but there is absolutely a lot more to do since AI is playing an increased role in brands and a more important part in day to day life in Canada. Today, I'm happy to be joined by two marketing leaders from IBM who are living this transformation from both the creative and the technical sides. 00:01:24:15 - 00:01:48:08 Alison Today's conversation is not about the latest AI tool or the newest capability. It's about the practical, sometimes messy work of incorporating and leveraging AI and marketing in business and helping future-proof your brand. Alexis Zamkow is the Global Offering Leader for Intelligent Marketing within IBM Consulting, where she's at the forefront of helping CMOs navigate the generative AI transformation. 00:01:48:10 - 00:02:23:00 Alison Alexis specializes in translating complex AI capabilities into practical marketing solutions, helping organizations move from proof of concept to skilled implementation while addressing the critical challenges of cost management, change management, and governance. Miglena Nikolova brings over 20 years of marketing and communications expertise. She currently serves as Senior Portfolio Advisory Marketing Lead for IBM Canada. At IBM, she's exploring how Gen AI is reshaping creativity and authenticity in their marketing and also leveraging AI tools to enhance productivity and innovation. 00:02:23:02 - 00:02:26:01 Alison Welcome, Alexis and Miglena. It's great to have you with me today. 00:02:26:03 - 00:02:28:07 Alexis It's great to be here. Thanks for having us. 00:02:28:09 - 00:02:48:22 Miglena Thank you, Alison, for this warm welcome and introduction. And I would also like to add that Alexis and I are very active in the Canadian marketing community. I sit on the CMA Creativity Council and Alexis is part of the Artificial Intelligence Committee. So in this podcast, we would also be representing the work that we do as part of these rewarding assignments. 00:02:49:00 - 00:03:07:16 Alison Well thank you for being among our highly engaged CMA members who are helping provide a lot of great thought leadership and a lot of great discussion and debate around hot topics that are important to everyone in our profession. I would love to start with your personal AI journeys. So how are you each using AI both personally and professionally? 00:03:07:21 - 00:03:09:12 Alison Miglena, do you want to kick things off? 00:03:09:14 - 00:03:38:14 Miglena Absolutely. Alison, thank you for this question. Because, you know, scaling AI is very much about how we, on a personal level are adopting the new ways of working. And personally, I use it for research, note-taking, often for fun things and projects I'm exploring outside of work. One of the questions I'm pondering on the personal side is what it will mean to write a book in the future, because there are just so many challenges and opportunities in this space. 00:03:38:18 - 00:04:05:23 Miglena And on the professional side, for marketing, I use predominantly our Consulting Advantage app, which has so many features and applications that literally the sky is the limit in what we can accomplish. We have access to assistants, agents that can help make tasks much faster and more comprehensive than perhaps we ever thought possible, so we can leverage our agents to help us with image recognition, notes and files analysis, 00:04:05:23 - 00:04:35:23 Miglena PowerPoint generators, summarization. I can give you an example. At a recent marketing event, we hosted over ten separate round tables, each one with notes for the discussion. And then we loaded all the notes in our Executive Summarizer and asked, what were the common themes, what were the unique points, etc. and in minutes, literally, we were able to to generate and share a much more comprehensive and enriching summary of the learnings. 00:04:36:00 - 00:04:48:09 Miglena So I also routinely leverage AI for writing marketing emails, blogs, graphs, social posts from the perspective of our subject matter experts. And really, that saves a lot of time. 00:04:48:11 - 00:05:10:11 Alexis So similar to Miglena, our organization is absolutely committed to ensuring that we use generative AI in all aspects of our business. Now I'm in the offering space, so I help to build new offerings for our customers. And so research is important for us. Synthetic research using different personas, different industry groups. We can run ideas for our offerings 00:05:10:11 - 00:05:37:02 Alexis and value proposition is against those synthetic personas and get some early ideas around, you know, how do we reposition some of our messaging? How do we change some of our offerings to address some of the, the big concerns, that maybe some of our customers have so we are really focusing in on how to solve for those concerns. And how to make sure that our brand is true to the essence of how we're positioning ourselves. 00:05:37:04 - 00:05:58:04 Alexis So on an offering perspective, you know, there's a lot of great ways that generative AI can support a marketer. Idea generation, we're trying to apply the gen AI to come up with, you know, what's the next great ideas that our clients are really going to take a hold of. So ideation is definitely an area of interest. 00:05:58:04 - 00:06:17:07 Alexis And then a lot of the pragmatic things that Miglena mentioned. So when we're writing copy, if I want to get it really personal to an industry or to a specific influencer, we leverage personas to be able to make sure that our messages are bang on as to what that individual's needs are and, to make it really highly personalized. 00:06:17:09 - 00:06:41:20 Alexis So it is embedded within the entire offering area. But at the same time, I work with clients on how they're embedding it in their own operations, so across the entire end-to-end marketing content, supply chain and campaign development, we're coming up with great ways that agents can work simultaneously with humans to improve productivity, also to drive revenue. 00:06:41:22 - 00:07:05:06 Alexis We're moving very rapidly from a situation of testing, trialing, piloting to scaling. Scaling does require different capabilities to be addressed, and we're working with our clients to help them to do that. IBM, as you guys know, is committed to AI for a very long time. We go back to Jeopardy and Watson. We are steeped in the AI space. 00:07:05:08 - 00:07:50:19 Alexis And so as things have evolved over the last, you know, probably five years as ten AI has really come to the forefront, our organization has also moved into that space. And our own marketing teams have embraced gen AI really from the beginning. To be able to create a process and a workflow that has agents supporting the entire content supply chain from insights development, being able to scan our product information and make recommendations on how to best position products, the content creator, which then allows you to take, pre-configured templates and be able to assign - here's the target market, here's the product that I'm interested in, here's the key messages and gives you different options 00:07:50:19 - 00:08:20:12 Alexis around how can you position this. And it isn't about completing it. It's about the start, the starting of the process to allow the creativity to accelerate. And then once that that creative has gone through the process of initial approvals, validation was always a big challenge for us. And we knew that that cycle had to be shortened. So we built agents to be able to take our legals, our brand standards and be able to apply that to the content that we were creating 00:08:20:14 - 00:08:43:00 Alexis to be able to really shorten up that cycle. Didn't eliminate it. And for most of our clients, you know, elimination isn't the game right now, but to be able to reduce the number of iterations required to go through the legal process was able to allow us to move from something that would normally take six weeks to be able to create, say, a campaign for a social media engagement, six weeks to six days. 00:08:43:02 - 00:09:01:01 Alexis And I didn't say six minutes, but eventually we might get to six minutes. But right now it is about those iterative improvements that you start automating tasks that you feel do not require that human element, and you supervise where you need to. 00:09:01:01 - 00:09:27:17 Alison Great examples, and that really is powerful to see how gen AI can help all of us scale, certainly, regardless of whether you're in a big business, a startup, or somewhere in between, the scalability of the technology is, certainly a major benefit. Now, I know IBM's recent research found that 67% of CMOs are planning to implement gen AI within the next year, and 80% within the next 24 months. 00:09:27:19 - 00:09:40:06 Alison So for marketers who are wanting to move beyond experimentation to implementation, where should they start? And in particular, what sorts of resources, training and support systems are necessary to help them succeed? 00:09:40:08 - 00:10:07:12 Alexis I look at one of the biggest challenges and working with clients to be able to scale AI is when you're in a proof of concept it's a very controlled environment. You bring in a certain number of data elements. You have a very restricted output requirement and you have a lot of supervision. What I've seen is as clients move from these very controlled environments where you're really testing to make sure the models are operating without hallucinations and to the level of quality you need, 00:10:07:12 - 00:10:41:23 Alexis the data that is used by these agents is really critical to be clean, tagged and accurate. And what we're finding is that first step is as you move from a pilot, when you can really control all those pieces, to now dipping into your CDP, your customer data platforms, and if that data and your data asset repositories, if that data isn't well structured and set up for success, no matter what and how intelligent your models are, you're not going to get an output that is of the quality you need. 00:10:41:23 - 00:11:01:13 Alexis So going back to basics and ensuring that the data that you are feeding into your large language models, your multimodal models, making sure you have that in a structure, in a format that's really going to give you a high quality output is is job one. The next step is really finding the right use cases to scale. 00:11:01:14 - 00:11:32:06 Alexis You can try lots of things. But if you are going to pick a use case that is very narrow in impact, the business case will be really challenged. So we we recommend our clients sit back and look at the opportunity platforms, look at the opportunities out there, and really make informed choices around risk and reward. Which use cases provide an appropriate level of risk, but with enough reward to really justify the business case. 00:11:32:06 - 00:11:52:22 Alexis Because investments are required as you scale, and you have to get these wins along the way. You can't wait a year or a year and a half to get the wins. So we suggest, you know, you really have to build out a roadmap of appropriate use cases that you feel comfortable to implement, but to also ensure you have a return on investment. 00:11:53:02 - 00:12:28:02 Alexis And then finally, the governance and the supervision. Can't separate that from this exercise as you scale. Because here is where the rubber hits the road and full automation could cause concerns about what is being put into the market. So ensuring you have governance of your systems, governance of your process, and also ensuring that your people are skilled and have the right metrics and the right management to be able to execute to the desired outcome. And change management is absolutely critical at every step of this process, and even more so as we're scaling. 00:12:28:04 - 00:12:45:06 Alexis So, Alison, you mentioned that a lot of our CMOs are moving to this to this next level. And we ask the question, so what is your biggest challenge as you're moving to this next level? And it was really interesting because what came out - two things. One was the cost and the cost isn't the technology. The cost is I have to retrain my people. 00:12:45:06 - 00:13:20:02 Alexis I have to fix my processes. I have to clean my data. There are so many tangential elements that are required to make these machines work the way you want them to. So there's this whole cost factor that am I really set up for success? But then the next most important aspect was change management. I am surprised, but I hear this often, is that there are a lot of people who just are a bit resistant to change, and how do you make sure that these brilliant, creative people in marketing do not feel minimized by using a tool to maybe begin the first draft of some concepts, or to begin some first illustrations. 00:13:20:03 - 00:13:42:15 Alexis Overcoming human resistance and skills gaps is the second and absolutely most, you know, critical element to long term success. And that is where CMA is doing some really great things around helping companies to really embrace and learn how to do change management around tools like gen AI. 00:13:42:17 - 00:14:16:12 Miglena Absolutely. And you know, those were great points really. And you know, for me, being on the internal side and not really working directly with clients, I think as marketers, the onus is on us to take responsibility for our own learnings so we're not left behind in this world of the future and this, future of work. And we should be thinking about the jobs that we do today and how that job, each of the tasks we do can be disrupted by AI and then disrupt ourselves and learn and build from there. 00:14:16:12 - 00:14:53:20 Miglena Right? Just understand how we can enhance what we do with AI, how we can really leverage that new technology. And what I find is also that, a lot of marketers work for organizations that are not yet at that critical stage where the employees are empowered and, have access to tools and even are encouraged experimenting. And so depending on the type of organization that you work for, I think it's important to think about what kind of exposure and adoption that your organization currently has and how you can learn. 00:14:53:20 - 00:15:04:22 Miglena How are you experimenting, what tools are you using today, and how you can supplement that externally in order to continue to learn and grow to really future- proof yourself. 00:15:05:00 - 00:15:36:12 Alexis So, Alison, just one other, point to build off of what Miglena just mentioned in adoption. When we first adopted it at IBM, this was a corporate wide commitment. And it wasn't a small group of really excited people in IT or in a small group in a contact centre. It was from the top down. And where I see success globally is where the C-suite makes a commitment that this will become embedded in the DNA of the company. 00:15:36:12 - 00:16:02:10 Alexis And it is not a sideline project that you just stand it up and hopefully it works. And it's not something that just because the shareholders are expecting it in, you know, the roadmap. It truly needs to be embedded as a way of working and at all levels, not just at the hands-on level, but strategically we have to be thinking about this needs to be embedded in the front of the shop, in the back of the shop. 00:16:02:10 - 00:16:30:00 Alexis The customer experience when you're looking at generative tools needs to be completely knitted between sales, service, marketing, commerce. Once you start bringing a generative capability to the forefront, building it in isolation will not deliver the rewards needed. So even more so important that marketing, sales, service, these platforms need to work together. The executives need to work together. 00:16:30:02 - 00:16:43:16 Alexis It will not deliver what's needed in isolation. So these big commitments really take a bit of time. And if you don't have senior leadership support, it really is hard to scale beyond some exciting pilots. 00:16:43:18 - 00:17:05:15 Alison It's such a great point Alexis. And when I've talked to a number of different organizations, including a number of our members, you're absolutely right. It's not just the C-suite. It has to actually come from the CEO. Those are such important parts to get beyond the challenge of change management that regardless of whether it's gen AI, new office, any time there's change, the change management element tends to be the most challenging part of that. 00:17:05:15 - 00:17:14:23 Alison So those are really helpful suggestions in how to help incentivize and help teams see the potential in this instead of the intimidation. 00:17:15:01 - 00:17:45:05 Alexis But also how you hire people. So Alison, this is another bit of learning that we have internally that, there's certain skill sets that really are coming to the forefront. And it's not always coding, it's about creativity. It's the ability to have good judgment. It's the ability to think more in an agile fashion. And those skills are actually really, really critical to be able to embrace these new technologies and get the most out of them. 00:17:45:05 - 00:18:09:04 Alexis So some of the hard skills are not as nearly as important as the soft skills of understanding how to work with new data sources, new inputs, new ways of working, collaboration. That is an HR challenge now, when you're hiring people, you have to hire for someone who will embrace these capabilities to make your workforce work for you. 00:18:09:06 - 00:18:29:14 Miglena And as you can imagine, especially from the perspective of my work on the CMA Creativity Council, we spend a lot of time thinking about that and discussing how AI will really impact even the meaning of creativity. All the new opportunities, the expanded creative horizons, all the new dimensions that are available to marketers. 00:18:29:16 - 00:18:51:07 Alexis And CMO leadership. We see that in the decisions that are being made now. And gen AI, I usually work with the CMO in concert with that CIO. It's the CMO telling the CIO, these are the things that I need and I need your help to deliver those. CMOs are becoming much more technology savvy and need to be because their employees are too. 00:18:51:09 - 00:18:56:13 Alexis So...
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EP62 - Future proofing the marketing profession with Alan Depencier
02/17/2026
EP62 - Future proofing the marketing profession with Alan Depencier
In this special episode, CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with RBC CMO and CMA Board Chair Alan Depencier, to interview each other as both transition from CMA leadership roles in 2026. They celebrate achievements including 150+ new member organizations, the DMSC and AI playbook success, while unveiling 2026 plans for Marketing Week's national expansion, new councils and much more. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:21 - 00:00:41:08 Alison I am absolutely thrilled to welcome back Alan Depencier, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, to our podcast today, where we will be discussing all that we have planned for the CMA in 2026. This year marks a milestone for both Alan and I, as he is wrapping up his term as our CMA Board Chair, and I will be retiring in May. 00:00:41:14 - 00:00:58:00 Alison So we're also going to take a little bit of time to reflect on our time together, what we've accomplished, and why the CMA has such an important role in future-proofing marketers and our profession. We're going to take a bit of a different approach to the episode, too, with Alan turning the tables on me by asking me a few questions. 00:00:58:02 - 00:01:26:02 Alison Alan was elected to the CMA board in 2019 and has contributed significantly. He's been a member of CMA's Member Engagement and Human Resource Committees, Chaired the Finance and Audit Committee, and served as Board Vice Chair before his appointment as Chair in May 2024. Alan also played a pivotal role in the creation of our CMA NXT program, which helps university and college students bridge the gap between post-secondary education and starting their professional life in marketing. 00:01:26:04 - 00:01:47:01 Alison In addition to all of his outstanding contributions to the CMA, Alan has a really inspiring career in marketing. He has held senior marketing roles at RBC for 21 years, including most recently as Chief Marketing Officer for Commercial Banking and Insurance. Prior to his tenure at RBC, Alan managed consumer packaged goods brands and spearheaded the growth of a startup venture. 00:01:47:03 - 00:01:51:08 Alison So welcome back Alan. I am absolutely looking forward to a great conversation today. 00:01:51:10 - 00:01:59:14 Alan Thanks, Alison. I'm excited to join you once again. And I'm excited that we get to, you know, reverse roles for a bit. I get to ask you some questions. 00:01:59:16 - 00:02:20:09 Alison Definitely going to be a fun one. So, Alan, between your very demanding role as CMO at RBC and your many CMA Board commitments, plus your involvement with the overall CMA, everything from helping create CMA NXT to chairing multiple committees and now being our Board Chair, you've clearly invested tremendous time and a great deal of energy in our profession. 00:02:20:11 - 00:02:25:04 Alison So what drives that passion and what has kept you so engaged with CMA's mission? 00:02:25:06 - 00:02:45:17 Alan Great question Alison. You know, at the core, I believe marketing really matters. When it's done well, it drives business growth, it strengthens brands, and it can genuinely improve people's lives. I see that every day at RBC. What the CMA gives me is a chance to zoom out and help shape that profession as a whole, but not just for one organization. 00:02:45:19 - 00:03:08:22 Alan And what initially pulled me in was the people. You know, when you're surrounded by some of the smartest marketers in the country, you know, tackling some of the biggest issues like AI, privacy, trust, it's incredibly energizing. But it became personal when I saw the impact of what we could actually make on the industry. You know, I'm a much better marketer today by being a part of the CMA, and I would encourage most folks to take advantage of the opportunity that sits in front of them. 00:03:09:00 - 00:03:31:11 Alan CMA NXT is a great example. We didn't just talk about the gap between school and the workplace. We built something that helped students launch their real careers. Seeing the kind of tangible impact, it's super powerful. And honestly, what kept me engaged is that the CMA is where the future of marketing is in Canada is really being shaped. Being part of that, especially alongside leaders like you, has been one of the most rewarding chapters of my career. 00:03:31:13 - 00:03:41:19 Alison Thanks Alan, that means a lot. Now we're going to turn the tables. Although you're not officially off the hook, you get to ask me a few questions, but I'm definitely going to get you back for some other questions later in the podcast. 00:03:41:21 - 00:03:42:13 Alan This is great. 00:03:42:13 - 00:03:43:06 Alison So over to you. 00:03:43:12 - 00:04:07:20 Alan Okay. First question. Alison, you've led the CMA through what I've characterized as a complete transformation. When you look at where we are today versus where we were in the past, with our significantly expanded benefits for members, our AI master series featuring 32 practical playbooks, the DMSC program up-skilling of 1900 marketers and supporting 700 small and medium sized enterprises, and a record member satisfaction scores. 00:04:07:22 - 00:04:11:15 Alan What do you see as a turning point that made this level of change possible? 00:04:11:17 - 00:04:37:19 Alison Oh, you're clearly starting with an easy question I see. So, you know Alan, I really think the turning point was when we truly embraced the CMAs important role and helping future-proof the marketing profession and took a really collaborative approach. So the transformation happened because our Board, our senior leadership team, our overall CMA team and our incredible engaged members all really aligned around the shared vision of what the CMA could become. 00:04:37:21 - 00:04:57:16 Alison And I think back to my first 100 days, at the end of which I had led the creation of CMA's Refined Value Equation, and everyone played a really important role in this, which helped set up the direction for the coming months and the years, and ultimately for the transformation that we've driven together. The board strategic guidance has been absolutely invaluable. 00:04:57:18 - 00:05:19:15 Alison You and the Board didn't just support bold initiatives, you really helped shape them. And since I joined, the Board has been so actively involved alongside our team and our membership. So together, we've really challenge ourselves to think bigger, to create something that could truly serve the profession. And that's led to many great initiatives and our ability to really step up and help future-proof marketers in our profession. 00:05:19:15 - 00:05:41:08 Alison And you highlighted some of the big wins that we've had together. And I think we should be incredibly proud that our member scores 87% for how the CMA is future-proofing marketing. When I step back and think about what I'm most proud of, it really comes down to the fact that we've got all of these incredibly involved members like you, and they really are the real heroes in the transformation. 00:05:41:09 - 00:06:04:05 Alison We have hundreds of senior marketers who are contributing through our Councils and Committees. They're coming together to debate and to learn. They're creating thought leadership that's shaping marketing, supporting our government advocacy and developing the content that really educates our profession and our community. And then we also have an amazing group of rising star marketers from across our membership with our new CMA Aim Advisory board. 00:06:04:07 - 00:06:25:01 Alison And they're really ensuring that we're building strong relevance and engagement for junior members and the future CMOs of the CMA. Plus, we've significantly grown our Chartered Marketer community, I'm super proud of that. And they're all really actively engaged. And those are just a few examples of how it's our overall community really coming together and collaborating that has made us so successful. 00:06:25:06 - 00:06:40:15 Alison And the journey certainly has taught us that CMA's greatest asset isn't our programs or advocacy. It really is the passionate community of marketers who actively engage, volunteer their time and share their expertise to really help advance our profession. 00:06:40:17 - 00:07:02:22 Alan That's great. And I know in previous podcasts you love to ask some of your guests questions about their leadership philosophy. You know, your approach to future-proofing the profession has been remarkable the last few years, and I could go on and on with many different things you've led, whether it's mentoring programs, AI resources, getting more value as part of your membership fees, council structure, the awards programs. 00:07:03:00 - 00:07:08:05 Alan I could go on and on, but my key question is, what's your philosophy on building that kind of sustainable transformation? 00:07:08:09 - 00:07:31:12 Alison Oh, you're making me blush. The real insight is it's not me. It's all of us together. And my philosophy really centres on leveraging collective brilliance. The most sustainable transformation can only happen when you're really inclusive in your approach, and you really look for ways to unlock the expertise that already exists within our community. And Alan, you and the Board are absolutely invaluable partners in this approach. 00:07:31:14 - 00:07:51:16 Alison You didn't just provide governance, you provided really great strategic insight that helped elevate our approach and certainly elevated our initiatives. And when we designed the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, when we brought to life for the first time ever, CMA Marketing Week, Board members shared their expertise and really helped us understand what would resonate with the overall profession. 00:07:51:18 - 00:08:14:15 Alison And then certainly our members are mission critical to what we've accomplished, and our CMA Committees and Councils. So they really act a lot like think tanks that are led by practitioners who are living these challenges daily. The CMA weekly AI playbooks that we launched in 2025 provide really actionable learning and insights in this key area. So they're such a terrific example, because the AI committee is coming together, 00:08:14:15 - 00:08:44:00 Alison they're helping create the playbooks and they're drawing on very real experience with implementing AI in major organizations, and also from leading innovators in Canadian AI companies. We've got a 95% average satisfaction score across all events in 2025, which also really reflects this philosophy. We don't create in isolation. We have engaged members that help design agendas, they're contributing their insights, and they're really sharing their expertise. 00:08:44:06 - 00:09:07:13 Alison And that's why our CMA events can deliver value that you simply can't get anywhere else. So I'm certainly super lucky to be working with the talented and dedicated team at the CMA. They really love the marketing profession. They're deeply committed to helping future-proof it, and they work hard, care deeply, and we also have a lot of fun along the way, which you can never underestimate the importance of fun along the way as well. 00:09:07:15 - 00:09:28:07 Alison So the key insight for me is that transformation really requires participation, not just consumption. Our active members don't just attend our events, they help shape them. They don't just read our thought leadership, they help create it. And that's really how you can build an ecosystem that continuously evolves and improves and will live long beyond my time with the CMA. 00:09:28:09 - 00:09:51:05 Alan Yeah, I think like all great leaders, it's the people that actually make the difference. And I think not only you being a great leader, but the folks you surround yourself with and the community in general has obviously been a big part of your success. And kudos for you to recognize that as you look forward. My next question is, you know, your decision to retire in May comes at a time when many call, you know, one of the peak moments of CMA impact and momentum. 00:09:51:07 - 00:09:56:04 Alan How do you view the timing and what excites you most about the foundation you're leaving for your successor? 00:09:56:06 - 00:10:17:08 Alison So the timing really reflects the strength of the collaborative leadership model that we have. And the transformation, as we both talked about, is never dependent on any one person. It's been built through the partnership between our senior leadership team, our full CMA staff, the Board and our incredible member community. So Alan, you and the Board have been absolutely instrumental throughout this journey. 00:10:17:09 - 00:10:41:23 Alison Your strategic guidance, your willingness to really support bold initiatives, your commitment to excellence, that foundation continues long after I'm gone. And with the Board's oversight, strategic partnership and the strong CMA team will absolutely ensure really strong continuity, which is why I'm very confident in wrapping things up at the CMA later this year. But what excites me the most is the depth of the member engagement that we've built. 00:10:42:01 - 00:11:11:11 Alison We have over 300 members actively involved across our CMA Councils and Committees. Plus we have 200 members who are now involved and benefiting from our new CMA Mentorship Program, which is exclusive to and free for CMA members. And our Mentorship Program really shows how our members are also investing in each other's success. So my successor inherits something extraordinary, a terrific team and a community that is so actively engaged in shaping where Canada's marketing profession is going in the future. 00:11:11:17 - 00:11:40:00 Alison They get to walk into an organization where our Board members and the CMA team have a thriving strategic partnership. Staff are executing with excellence, and we have engaged members who are contributing expertise that enhances everything that we do. So this is never just been about organizational succession. It really is about transferring leadership of a movement. And that movement has such great momentum because it's powered by people who are passionate about marketing's future in Canada, and it's not dependent on any individual leader. 00:11:40:02 - 00:11:47:23 Alan I guess I have to give you the reins back now. And now you have to ask me questions. So I actually like asking questions better than answering questions. It's more fun. 00:11:48:01 - 00:12:07:07 Alison I can totally relate to that. But a test of growth and leadership is being stretched beyond your comfort zone. So you've stretched me. Now I'll return the favour and stretch you by asking you some questions. So Alan, you've had a front row seat to this transformation as Board Chair. So what the accomplishments of the CMA and the Board partnership are you most proud of? 00:12:07:09 - 00:12:11:12 Alison And how do you see the Board's role in sustaining the momentum moving forward? 00:12:11:14 - 00:12:35:13 Alan You know, when I step back and look at the last few years, what I'm most proud of is that we didn't just grow the CMA. We actually made it more relevant. Yes, numbers matter. You know, we've grown by more than 450 member organizations. We've added over 125 new members since 2023. We've had record client satisfaction scores. But behind those numbers are marketers who genuinely see value in the CMA and what it's doing. 00:12:35:13 - 00:13:01:13 Alan And I think when I talk to folks now versus when I talked to them when I first joined, I can feel that enthusiasm, I can feel that passion. They're seeing more value coming from being part of the CMA. And I think that's the qualitative side of kind of looking at the numbers. From a Board perspective, our biggest contribution was helping set the strategic direction and priorities in collaboration with yourself and your leadership team, but more importantly is really that bold execution. 00:13:01:14 - 00:13:21:04 Alan If you look at the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, it's a perfect example. That was one that wasn't traditionally on our radar, and you brought that to us. And after reviewing it as a Board and looking at the opportunity, it's done wonders for the organization. One we've up-skilled more than 2000 marketers helped the majority of them advance their careers and get into the profession. 00:13:21:06 - 00:13:49:16 Alan And more importantly, we increased our representation with some groups that we typically were unrepresentative from a marketing perspective. So I feel really proud about that. We've also modernized the Chartered Marketer designation and more than doubled participation, reinforcing it as the gold standard for marketing leadership in Canada. And I'm super proud of CMAs growing national voice. You and the team have just done a wonderful job, whether it's privacy, competition, digital policy, the governments at all levels, whether it's federal or provincial, are listening to the CMA. 00:13:49:16 - 00:14:21:16 Alan They're actually calling us now for our perspectives. This is super fulfilling, and I think it really shows the advocacy role that you've played and the team's played in helping to grow the profession. As I look forward, I feel we have so much momentum on some of the bigger strategies and it really is around, really over the next 3 to 5 years, is taking some of those strategies to the next level and building on that continuity of our focus over the last few years. You know, we've built a sustainable model grounded in insight and collaboration with the members, and that foundation will serve the next CEO extremely well and the profession. 00:14:21:18 - 00:14:37:16 Alan And I really feel like we're just getting started. I'm super excited for you, Alison, to be retiring this year. However, I'm a little bit disappointed because, you know, we are building such a wonderful thing together. But I guess bringing someone a new with a new lens and a new passion will just help us take it to the whole new level. 00:14:37:16 - 00:14:55:07 Alan And I'd be remiss if I didn't thank my fellow Board members. I am so privileged to work with some of the best Board members that you could wish to have around the table as part of the CMA Board, and I'm super excited that we'll be leaving it in really good hands as we both transition in 2026. 00:14:55:09 - 00:15:15:21 Alison Alan, you're so right. We've got a phenomenal Board. You have led by example in your Chair role and the willingness to take on those big opportunities that can be a little scary at the time, I mean, as we were launching the first year of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, the CMA team was referring to it as we were literally building the plane as we were flying it, and we did it phenomenally well. 00:15:15:21 - 00:15:40:03 Alison But it was really bringing a startup mentality into an established, not for profit association. And so that taught us a lot of skills around agility and everything else as well, and there is so much to be proud of. And the way you ended with the Board, we you're so right, we've got an incredibly talented Board with really big, busy, demanding jobs who are so dedicated to our profession, are such amazing partners to me, 00:15:40:03 - 00:16:02:10 Alison and as the CEO, to the senior leadership team and are really making such a powerful, positive impact on our profession. So huge kudos to you as Chair and to our overall Board as well. So Alan, now let's talk about what excites you the most for 2026. Once again, we're expanding CMA Marketing Week, we're launching new councils and innovation and social content in commerce. 00:16:02:10 - 00:16:18:11 Alison We're continuing to expand our...
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EP61 - How Team Canada Revolutionized Athlete Partnerships with Jacqueline Ryan
01/30/2026
EP61 - How Team Canada Revolutionized Athlete Partnerships with Jacqueline Ryan
What could you accomplish if an entire country was cheering for you? Building on Team Canada's 27-medal Paris success, Alison Simpson, President and CEO of the Canadian Marketing Association, speaks with Jacqueline Ryan, Chief Brand and Commercial Officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee and CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. This episode celebrates Team Canada athletes stories of resilience, perseverance, and excellence on the road to Milano Cortina 2026, and the importance of Marketing Partnership support on that journey. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:20 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:22 - 00:00:46:16 Alison Canada is definitely having a sporty moment. From the Blue Jays extraordinary World Series run and women's rugby reaching the World Cup, to the Four Nations Cup victory and historic Olympic performances in Paris, Canadian athletes are capturing hearts and inspiring national pride like never before. There's truly no better time for this momentum as we head into the Milano Cortina Winter Olympics. 00:00:46:18 - 00:01:25:14 Alison For today's episode, I am thrilled to welcome back Jacquie Ryan, Chief Brand and Commercial Officer for the Canadian Olympic Committee and CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. Since joining the COC in 2019, Jacquie has transformed Canada's engagement with the Olympic Movement, including earning recognition as the Canadian Marketing Association's Marketer of the year in 2024 for her exceptional work during the Paris Olympics. Jacquie's leadership during Paris 2024 set new standards for Olympic marketing success, with the Brave is Unbeatable campaign significantly increasing positive feelings towards Team Canada. 00:01:25:14 - 00:01:51:20 Alison Under her guidance, Canada Olympic House opened to the public for the first time during a Summer Olympics, attracting 17,000 visitors in Paris, while Team Canada Fan Fest events back home drew 50,000 visitors across the country. With over 25 years of experience, including RBC, where Jacquie helped drive marketing strategy for the 2010 Vancouver Olympics, and Scotiabank, where she secured the 800 million naming rights deal for Scotiabank Arena, 00:01:52:01 - 00:02:15:19 Alison Jacquie brings exceptional expertise in sports marketing. As Canada approaches the Milano Cortina 2026 Winter Olympics with such strong momentum, amazing marketing partners and a nation ready and keen to rally behind our athletes, there's never been a more exciting time to be part of Team Canada. Welcome, Jacquie. It is an absolute pleasure to have you back to CMA Connect leading up to the Olympics. 00:02:15:21 - 00:02:20:10 Jacquie Thank you, Alison, and thanks for the opportunity to join you here today. And really a great pleasure to be back. 00:02:20:16 - 00:02:36:14 Alison So I'd love to start by looking back at Paris. The 2024 Olympics really did set new benchmarks across the board, from medal count to sponsorships and to national engagement. So what were the key learnings from Paris that have shaped your approach for Milano Cortina 2026? 00:02:36:20 - 00:03:00:13 Jacquie Well, thanks for asking, Alison. Paris was, it was incredible. It was, the first normal games since we returned from Covid, because we had the two Covid games, Tokyo and Beijing. So a lot of expectations were high for Paris, for everyone, for fans, families, athletes, marketing partners or donors. And the games literally delivered across all expectations in the entire spectrum. 00:03:00:15 - 00:03:25:10 Jacquie Team Canada won 27 medals in Paris. It's the second best result for Team Canada ever at a Summer games. Like eight golds, six silver, 11 bronze and three Olympic records. So we're super proud of the team. They really, really showed up well. And on top of that, over 70% of Canadians tuned in and they engaged with Team Canada, whether it be through our social channels, through CBC or Radio-Canada in Quebec. 00:03:25:12 - 00:03:50:03 Jacquie So the games in Paris, they really raised the bar in many meaningful ways, and so many lessons that are directly shaping how we're approaching Milano Cortina now, in 2026. So the first thing it did really reinforced our belief that nothing really brings people together quite like sport. Olympics are an incredible, unifying platform that really allows us all to put our differences aside. 00:03:50:05 - 00:04:21:12 Jacquie Secondly, it just reminded us the power of athlete for storytelling. So fans engaged most deeply when they could see the people behind the podiums. They could see their journeys, their resilience. The community roots through moments of humanity, the whole experience leading up to and including the games. So we'll continue to prioritize these athlete narratives, being really, really authentic in the storytelling from their voice, and keep Canadians connected with these athletes and learning about Team Canada athletes well before the opening ceremony. 00:04:21:12 - 00:04:45:14 Jacquie So when they arrive at the games, Canadians are really well poised to really understand the journey and know our athletes. And then our Brave is Unbeatable, our marketing campaign was a big success. We built a lot of equity in this platform through Paris and so working with The Hive, we decided to use it again, basically as a springboard to drive engagement with Canadians heading in now to the Cortina games. 00:04:45:16 - 00:05:07:10 Jacquie The platform, as you'll recall, really leans into the idea of Canadians seeing themselves in the athletes. These athletes are competing. They're on the global stage representing Canada, but they're still human. They have our similar struggles, they go through all sorts of things in their journey, and all of that can lend itself both as inspiration for all of us, and connection so that we feel connected to the athletes. 00:05:07:10 - 00:05:41:04 Jacquie So creatively, we've expanded this iteration of storytelling across far more athletes, representing the real vast diversity of Team Canada athletes from across Canada, sharing their stories, of course, strategically across different placements and channels and in different ways. So that's definitely something that was a big success and we're building on. Another is that Paris really demonstrated that what it looks like when marketing partnerships are truly integrated. Not just visible. They become part of the fan experience, part of the Canadian experience with these athletes and part of the athlete support system. 00:05:41:06 - 00:06:16:10 Jacquie So for Milano now, we've built collaborative, values-aligned marketing partnerships that contribute directly to performance, athlete well-being, fan engagement, rather than simply sponsorship presence. So, I mean, we've known this for years, but it really came together well for Paris, and wait until you see the marketing partner campaigns for Milano Cortina. And then finally, Paris really showed us that major games like the Olympic Games can be platforms for purpose, from sustainability to inclusion to national pride. 00:06:16:12 - 00:06:29:22 Jacquie That lands really guides how we tell our story, how we support our athletes, how partners activate, and all of this helps bring Canadians together, and so we really look forward to all of that coming together in a few short weeks as we head into Milano Cortina. 00:06:30:00 - 00:07:06:00 Alison That's outstanding, Jacquie, thanks so much. I love that you're prioritizing the athlete content and bringing to life their whole selves. It's so inspiring to see the exceptional athletic conditioning and expertise that they bring, but it can sometimes be hard for us mere mortals to relate to. So understanding some of the real life challenges that they're facing, and seeing their 360-view of their lives helps us dream even more about how we can be inspired by them, both athletically and just from sheer perseverance and grit and determination. 00:07:06:00 - 00:07:27:22 Alison So I love that. And the marketing partnerships, I'm looking forward to drilling into that a little bit more. You've built an impressive roster of 39 marketing partners for Milano Cortina, so I'd love you to share how some of your longest standing partners, like RBC, are activating differently this time, and what new partners are bringing to the table that hasn't existed before. 00:07:28:00 - 00:07:51:06 Jacquie Thank you for the question. You could well imagine we're very proud of the 39 marketing partners who are helping power Team Canada toward Milano Cortina. What's exciting is both how long-standing partners and new partners are evolving, what partnership really means, as I referenced earlier. You know, essentially our marketing partners will look at their partnership with us as a way to do a few things. 00:07:51:07 - 00:08:18:09 Jacquie One, they want to support Team Canada directly. They want to celebrate the athletes. They want to tell the athletes stories. They want to engage Canadians. They want engage fans from coast to coast to coast. And really importantly, just as importantly, they really want to help leave a legacy, a lasting legacy of inspiration for the next generation. And I think those four components really drive a lot of what our marketing partners are up to in their campaigns leading up to Milano Cortina. 00:08:18:11 - 00:08:41:15 Jacquie I think you know this, but I'll just remind you that the Canadian Olympic Committee is a not for profit organization. And I mention that because we're almost exclusively privately funded by our marketing partners. So Team Canada quite literally could not get to the Games without our marketing partners. They're literally the engine behind Team Canada. This investment is truly a solid return on their dollars 00:08:41:15 - 00:09:11:12 Jacquie right back into the sports system supporting Olympic athletes' journey. So from its inception, all the way through to the podium. So lots of things around what they're doing is supporting the broader sport system, but importantly, they're looking for a return on their investment. And it's more than marketing. It's about an investment in the athlete journey. And in addition to that, working partners by virtue of being with us, they have access to the largest addressable audience for any sport property in Canada, where 70% of Canadians are engaging, they're watching or sharing. 00:09:11:13 - 00:09:35:12 Jacquie And from a marketing perspective, as you can well agree, that's an incredibly efficient marketing platform. And so that further demonstrates the efficiency of their investment. So I think our commercial momentum over the last few months highlights this, that over the last little while, we've signed ten new marketing partners. Like that's in this year. And it's a testament to the investment and the power of Team Canada as a marketing platform. 00:09:35:14 - 00:09:59:07 Jacquie We've never, ever signed so many sponsors, that many marketing partners in that period of time. And so the ten new ones, you likely saw we announced Tim Hortons as a new marketing partner. Really excited about that. We also launched Intact, Homewood Health, Nulo Pet Food, GoodLife, Maple Leaf Foods, Hillberg & Berk, The GIST, CALA. And there's one more I can't tell you about yet. 00:09:59:09 - 00:10:24:00 Jacquie So we're really, really excited about all of these new marketing partners joining us and really rallying Canadians behind Team Canada. And, you know, I continue to think we seriously have the best marketing jobs in this country at the Canadian Olympic Committee because we support the strategies and campaigns of 39 brands. Thirty nine top brands. You know, some of our longstanding partners RBC, Bell, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Petro Canada, Air Canada, like the list is long. 00:10:24:00 - 00:10:46:11 Jacquie So the job truly is quite a privilege. And so this year, we're seeing most of the majority of the partners all undertaking very large, fully integrated, marketing campaigns. Many have also partnered with CBC, which is important because that's the platform that tells the story through broadcast, and so they're really leveraging the broadcast to tell their stories. 00:10:46:13 - 00:11:07:05 Jacquie And, of note, and this is a really important point that the majority of these partners have signed athlete agreements. So there are athletes that are supported by virtue of their marketing campaigns. And that's over 90 individual partnerships with Canadian Olympians. And that's an incredible number to highlight the stories that we were talking about earlier in their campaigns. 00:11:07:05 - 00:11:32:16 Jacquie So excited about all of that. You know, there's lots to talk about and lots of partners that we could go on about their marketing campaigns. I can highlight a few. Firstly, I mentioned Lululemon. Lululemon is the official outfitter of Team Canada. They are also participating in the CBC broadcast. This is their third Olympic Games as Team Canada outfitter. Athletes are also a focal point of their campaign. 00:11:32:18 - 00:12:07:00 Jacquie They have many athlete partnerships, including Sidney Crosby. And we revealed the athlete kit that I'm wearing today, on November 18th. And they've had a series of retail drops ever since and really building momentum toward the opening ceremony, which will be important. Then, of course, Tim Hortons announced last week, they are also participating in the CBC broadcast, and they have lots of athlete partnerships, and also lots of fan engagement ideas, whether it's collectible Team Canada co-branded cups, there's trading cards, there's a contest to win a trip to Milano Cortina. 00:12:07:00 - 00:12:28:10 Jacquie The list is long. So really excited about partnering with them. They're going to partner with us at Team Canada Fan Fest. You know, and another point I would make is that I'm talking a lot about marketing campaigns here. But in addition to the campaigns, there are a number of marketing partners who are doing like real community-based initiatives, driving important positive change in the sport system. 00:12:28:15 - 00:12:57:04 Jacquie So two notable examples would be, we have a program called Bell Starting Line. So Bell initiated this. It's a program designed to get newcomer Canadian youth engaged in sport. So we're out there in the community really giving newcomers an opportunity where they didn't have access to sport, all because Bell has started to invest in this area. Equally, RBC has the RBC Training Ground program. Now it's in its 10th year, and that's a talent identification program that really looks for the next Olympian. 00:12:57:04 - 00:13:16:18 Jacquie And now what they've done is taken their financial resources to cast a much wider net so that there's more diverse access to the program, which just creates a better pipeline and supports a better Team Canada. So really, really proud of all of these programs. I mean, there's Canadian Tire, again, the list goes on and on, Sobeys, but we're proud of the partnerships 00:13:16:18 - 00:13:20:06 Jacquie and we frankly could not do any of this without them. 00:13:20:08 - 00:13:38:08 Alison Those are such powerful examples, and the reminder that you're not for profit is a really important one. So when we look at the 39 marketing partners that you have, to your point, Canada wouldn't have an Olympic team without them. It's great for their brands, it's great for their business. But it is so important and powerful for our country and our athletes as well. 00:13:38:08 - 00:13:58:18 Alison So huge congratulations for landing ten new partners in such a short period of time as well. It's phenomenal growth. Now, you mentioned a bit earlier that you've brought back the Brave is Unbeatable campaign, and I'd love you to share a little bit more about the success of that, and also what else you're doing to market the Olympics to Canadians. 00:13:58:19 - 00:14:21:18 Jacquie Yes. So we're again, we're pleased to bring Brave is Unbeatable back. We do this in partnership with The Hive and CBC and Radio-Canada. So with Brave is Unbeatable, we're not just marketing the games where we see our position is really connecting Canadians to the overall power of sport. It's about inspiration. So the campaign really focuses on the idea that bravery isn't just about standing on the podium, it's about the everyday courage 00:14:21:18 - 00:14:48:17 Jacquie it takes to train, to persevere, to represent your country and kind of put everything on the line. So that spirit really resonates deeply with Canadians, reflects the values that we're proud to stand behind here at Team Canada. So we really love the Brave is Unbeatable portrays Canada as this resilient, unflappable nation and aims to build energy, build excitement as Canadians across the country really rally together to support Team Canada coming up in Milano Cortina. 00:14:48:17 - 00:15:10:07 Jacquie And frankly, what a moment to be doing this. So we're really, really excited about the whole Canadian pride that's built right into it. So from a marketing perspective, we're really doing three things. First, we're telling athlete stories, as I said, in a more immersive way, more emotional across digital, broadcast, social, community, so Canadians can see themselves in the journey, not just the results. 00:15:10:12 - 00:15:36:05 Jacquie And then second, we're ensuring that Canadians can participate in the Olympic movement. So whether that be through Team Canada fan festivals, partner activations, grass root community engagement, digital experiences, it's all about bringing people closer to the Team Canada family, and we're creating more touch points for Canadians to feel part of something national and what we know to be true, unifying. So, you know, we launched our campaign together with the CBC last fall. 00:15:36:05 - 00:16:00:23 Jacquie We launched it at 100 days out from Milan, we need to mark that point in time. And it's a 360 campaign. It's deliberately timed, it integrated to create the greatest impact heading into the Games. Three months before the games is typically when it's a good time to remind Canadians of the journey of Team Canada, and our goal is to build national momentum, generate excitement, energy, and essentially, this is a really important part, 00:16:00:23 - 00:16:22:08 Jacquie set the stage for then the incredible marketing campaigns that follow from our 39 marketing partners. So we really feel it's our job to remind Canadians and raise awareness for the Games are coming and look out for Team Canada. And then, so we do the the job of really setting the stage and then our marketing partners layer in with all the stories that they tell and all of their campaigns. 00:16:22:10 - 00:16:51:06 Jacquie So that's essentially what we're doing. I did actually want to also point out that we have overall brand marketing initiatives with the Canadian Olympic Committee. We're also undertaking really important efforts to raise awareness for our foundation. That's the Canadian Olympic Foundation, and we're encouraging Canadians to join us and support these incredible athletes through these campaigns. And so what we're essentially doing is we run the Brave is Unbeatable campaign, which as it gets closer to the Games, we'll add 00:16:51:06 - 00:17:15:16 Jacquie Donate Now to join Team Canada message. And then also Maple Leaf Foods will be doing a campaign with us. It's called Double Your Impact and it's all about they're doing a matching donation campaign to encourage Canadians to make a donation to the Canadian Olympic Foundation, and they will match as well. So really excited about those two opportunities to continue to raise awareness for the...
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EP60 - How Positive Platforms Boost Sales with Jenna Landi
01/14/2026
EP60 - How Positive Platforms Boost Sales with Jenna Landi
Interested in boosting your sales by 24%? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Jenna Landi, Director of Global Brand Research at Pinterest, to explore how positive environments drive measurable business results, with advertising showing 94% more impact on purchase intent. Jenna reveals why brands don't have to choose between positivity and performance. She introduces 'ambient chaos' as the driver of consumer shifts, shares Pinterest's 88% trend-forecasting accuracy, and reveals that Canadian Gen Z over-indexes certain trends at 5.5 times the global rate. Plus insights on AI, visual search, and building safer digital spaces, with actionable strategies for authentic brand connections. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:17 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:19 - 00:00:53:01 Alison When we're surrounded by an increasingly divisive and negative cultural landscape, finding authentic positivity can actually feel revolutionary. And it turns out it's can also be incredibly good for business, as marketers are grappling with building genuine connections in a digital world. Research from Pinterest proves that positive environments don't just feel better. They deliver measurable business results. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Jenna Landy, the Director of Global Brand Research of Pinterest. 00:00:53:03 - 00:01:34:07 Alison Jenna leads Pinterest's marketing research organization, leveraging the platform's unique Taste Graph technology to really understand how users discover, engage with, and act on inspiration. Her groundbreaking research on positivity and advertising has shown that campaigns infused with positive content can deliver up to 24% increases in sales. Definitely proof that doing good and doing well are not mutually exclusive. With the Master of Science of Behavioural Science from the London School of Economics and extensive experience at Nielsen and Google, where she was a founding member of the Human Truth Team, Jenna brings both academic rigour and practical marketing expertise to understanding consumer behaviour. 00:01:34:09 - 00:01:57:15 Alison At Pinterest, she is on the forefront of identifying shifting consumer behaviours, including what her team calls the ambient chaos of our current world. What a great description, as well as its impact on everything from design preferences to purchase decisions. Her work spans AI integration, visual search, innovation, and the critical mission of building a safer, more inspirational internet. Welcome, Jenna. 00:01:57:15 - 00:02:01:05 Alison It is an absolute pleasure to have you join us today on CMA connect. 00:02:01:06 - 00:02:08:09 Jenna Oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me Alison. I'm so happy to be here and thank you for that really kind intro. This is exciting. 00:02:08:11 - 00:02:19:01 Alison I'm excited as well. So Jenna, I'd love you to start with your journey into marketing and research and really help our listeners understand what drew you to specialize in understanding consumer behaviour? 00:02:19:03 - 00:02:44:10 Jenna Absolutely. I was that annoying kid who never stopped asking questions. And I realized in university that I actually may be able to turn it into a career. So through roles in brand strategy, media buying, digital analytics, and deep global consumer insight, work, I've always been drawn to data and digital data in particular, and just how it offers a really unique window into consumer behaviour. 00:02:44:12 - 00:03:06:01 Jenna I joined Pinterest almost eight years ago now because our data, I believe, is the most unique in the industry. We have signals around both interest and intent. So searches and saves. And so myself and my team, we have this really unique sandbox to explore consumer behaviour from many different angles. And it's always also fun when you can live your work. 00:03:06:05 - 00:03:13:19 Jenna I am a peer myself, and I really appreciate and value the inspiration and creativity that it brings to my life. 00:03:13:21 - 00:03:24:19 Alison Curiosity for me is such an important priority for anyone to succeed in a marketing career. And you've also given hope to all the parents that are listening with those super inquisitive kids at home that it right off. 00:03:24:21 - 00:03:36:00 Jenna Oh, totally. I have two young girls myself, and I definitely am living some karma of kids that are extremely inquisitive. So hang on with them. Maybe it'll pay off later. 00:03:36:02 - 00:03:55:10 Alison And it will definitely pay off. So as a glass half full person myself, I am very intrigued by your research on positivity in advertising, especially into what can be a very divisive cultural landscape. You found that positive environments drive tangible business results. So I'd love you to share some of those findings. And what surprised you most about the research? 00:03:55:12 - 00:04:18:20 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that we were really hoping to find and really relieved and excited to find is that, you know, validating our gut, which is that advertising on brand safe and positive platforms isn't just safer, but it can be profitable. It can be good for business. And what we found is even goes beyond that, which is that users are more engaged with ads when they appear in positive spaces. 00:04:18:21 - 00:04:41:10 Jenna So we partnered with Magna, and their research showed us that ads in positive environments truly do perform better. So we looked at the impact of brand safety on metrics like engagement, trustworthiness, intent, and even results to demonstrate that brands don't really have to choose between positivity and performance. I think you said earlier, you know, too often this feels like a trade off. 00:04:41:10 - 00:05:08:15 Jenna And we were so excited in this research to really validate that that's not the case in these, that positive platforms are 94% more impactful in driving purchase intent. And so we talk a lot about brand safety. We've spoken about brand safety for years, but we hadn't yet put numbers behind the business impact. And so these results show that safe and positive platforms aren't just preferred by users, but they also perform for advertisers. 00:05:08:16 - 00:05:36:14 Jenna So in my simulations, the same creative, same finite budget generated up to 24% more sales when brands incorporated view-ability and positivity into their media buying strategies. So that real alchemy of both view-ability and positivity. And so we understand that advertisers are all seeking a competitive edge in today's marketplace. And we really believe that this research represents a fresh opportunity of where to find it. 00:05:36:14 - 00:05:48:17 Jenna So if I can ask listeners today to consider one thing, it would be really consider and evaluate how the platforms you're partnering with offer that positive space and offer that potential for competitive edge. 00:05:48:19 - 00:06:06:09 Alison That is a very compelling case for why positivity is absolutely the right approach, and clearly it's a great advantage from a Pinterest perspective. I also hope that other platforms are hearing and seeing the data and evolving as well would make the world certainly a better and more open place for sure. 00:06:06:11 - 00:06:15:22 Jenna So I would love that as an outcome of this research, please. Yes, an industry call to action to make the internet altogether a more safe and wellbeing supportive environment. 00:06:16:00 - 00:06:32:14 Alison So Jenny, your team's been studying what you call the ambient chaos, which is a term I absolutely love, and certainly our current world is experiencing that and how consumer behaviour are shifting as a result. Can you explain the concept and share some of the trends that you're seeing emerge from this research? 00:06:32:16 - 00:07:15:10 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. We kicked off this research to really understand the why behind some of the trends that we're calling. And Pinterest predicts this year, which I'm excited to get into in a little bit. But ambient chaos is a term my team coined to describe that constant background noise of uncertainty, divisiveness, and negativity that surrounds us today. And so one of my amazing colleagues talked about it as the emotional weather that we're all living in and an ongoing basis, there's just this constant level of low level stress and fragmentation that has become the backdrop of daily life, and it's really fundamentally changing how consumers behave, what they seek out, how they express themselves and so when 00:07:15:10 - 00:07:41:23 Jenna we mapped that into our trends, what we found is that one of the most fascinating shifts is this movement away from stark minimalism towards bold maximalism. As we detected in our trends this year, as people are seeking out new ways of self-expression and really grounding in their interests and passions. And so, you know, for years we've been told that clean, simple, minimal design was the pinnacle of sophistication. 00:07:41:23 - 00:08:05:15 Jenna But consumers are really now gravitating towards more of that authentic self-expression that represents who they are. And we're seeing this everywhere from home decor that's rich with colour and pattern to fashion choices that really make some bold statements rather than blend in. I think it's beautiful that people are saying, I'm here, I matter, and I'm not going to disappear into the background. 00:08:05:15 - 00:08:19:16 Jenna And so for marketers, the key takeaway is that consumers want to stand out and that they're seeking brands and experiences that help them vocalize and represent their truest selves versus, you know, not not wanting to conform to the sea of sameness. 00:08:19:18 - 00:08:36:13 Alison It's a sunny, beautiful day in Toronto today, but we've just come off like a week of gray, so embracing that maximalism and vibrancy is even more important on those gray days. Now, are there any brands that are early to this consumer insight and really embracing? 00:08:36:15 - 00:09:04:15 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. We've had actually amazing launch partners in L'Oreal and Hellmann's, just to name a few, who are really excited to run with these trends and help bring their products to life. One of the things that I love about these trends is that many of them are cross category, and so it gives a beauty brand like L'Oreal, an opportunity to activate against one of our trends called Gimme Gummy, which is super colourful. 00:09:04:15 - 00:09:34:21 Jenna And yes, it has a beauty application, but it gives L'Oreal a wedge an opportunity for relevance in categories far beyond beauty. Because Gimme Gummy, as a beauty trend, it's a fashion trend. It's a flavour and food and beverage trend. And so what we see at a lot of the unique approach of Pinterest predicts trends is that they are cross category and so it's giving a brand an opportunity to expand outside of sort of their core competency that they they've known and loved for so long. 00:09:34:21 - 00:09:51:18 Jenna And so just want to give huge kudos to those brands who have been launch partners with us and are helping bring that to market and excited to see how how the relationships they're building with these consumers and these new trend product areas continue to evolve. 00:09:51:20 - 00:10:04:16 Alison And you lead Pinterest trend for forecasting and revealing fascinating insights about how trends behave differently on Pinterest compared to other platforms. What do you think makes Pinterest unique for trend identification as well as longevity? 00:10:04:18 - 00:10:28:22 Jenna Yeah, our trend forecasting is different because we're capturing people in their leaned in planning mindset, not their passive scrolling mindset. So it really boils down to the way that people use Pinterest. They use it to plan. And so we get that unique insight into their consumer behaviour, this window into the future. And as a result, we have an 88% accuracy rate over the past six years in predicting trends. 00:10:28:23 - 00:10:52:10 Jenna And so the reason we do that is because the data that is the foundation for Pinterest predicts comes from the over 600 million people that come to Pinterest each month, specifically to search and shop for that next big thing. And so we again have this really highly accurate window into consumer intent through their active curation. Over every month, users make 80 billion queries on Pinterest. 00:10:52:10 - 00:11:20:17 Jenna And over time, we've actually recently crossed the 15 billion boards saved mark. And so when someone saves a pin about Glacier aesthetic or opera themed parties, they're actively curating their future reality and what they wish to see come true. And so our trend analysis goes far beyond search queries. We started our trend practice on search queries, but now we actually use a visual mapping technology made possible through AI to analyze the complete visual picture. 00:11:20:17 - 00:11:49:05 Jenna So the colours, the aesthetics and the styles that people are gravitating towards. So when we see searches for something like Icy Blue up 50% and frosted makeup up 150%, we're not just tracking those keywords. We're actually able to take a really comprehensive approach to identifying the entire aesthetic shift towards cool blue as a trend sophistication. So, you know, trends on Pinterest have staying power because they're rooted in this genuine intent. 00:11:49:07 - 00:12:27:20 Jenna Our current data is showing that trends are now growing 4.4 times faster than they were seven years ago. But on Pinterest, we see them build sustainably rather than spike and disappear. And so it's no surprise to me that on average, Pinterest trends last 20% longer than trends across other platforms. One of the things that we talk about on our team, a lot is differentiating this notion of what is a trend and what is a fad, a fad being something really quick and viral that doesn't give a brand a lot of opportunity to activate against where a trend is a real shift in consumer behaviour that has meaning, roots and longevity. 00:12:27:23 - 00:12:30:16 Jenna Giving a brand an opportunity to act. 00:12:30:18 - 00:12:41:15 Alison So congratulations, 88% rate was impressive and you should be very proud of that. Thank you. I'm also intrigued. You talked about the acceleration of trends. What do you think is behind that? 00:12:41:17 - 00:13:09:22 Jenna I mean, there's no denying that short form viral video has been an absolute accelerator. It's put gasoline on the fire. Also, the vision of, you know, Gen Z brings a lot of appetite for aesthetics and more visual experiences into their lives. And so I think they're drawing and taking from a lot of different realms. And so we're seeing as they identify and seek self-expression, they're turning through a lot of different personas that they're trying on for size. 00:13:09:22 - 00:13:38:08 Jenna And so I think the combination of Gen Z being in a state of self-identification and self-discovery, combined with this force of, you know, rise of short form online video where people are consuming content faster and faster, we're just inundated with this information. The challenge for marketers is how do you pass through it? You know, it's challenging supply chains, it's challenging social teams and marketers to think, you know, when and how and where do we play in this space. 00:13:38:12 - 00:14:06:02 Jenna And that's where I'm really proud of. Pinterest predicts offering something a little bit different, where in this moment in time, when there's a lot of fast moving trends, we're of course acknowledging those. Those are those are elements of a lot of our trends. We're doing that one click up to see the larger picture. And how that fad actually fits into something larger, which again, gives a brand a little bit more lead time and opportunity to really flex and participate in consumer culture. 00:14:06:04 - 00:14:10:21 Alison Now I look at the Pinterest predicts every single year and you've just launched 26. 00:14:10:23 - 00:14:12:07 Jenna We did. Yes. 00:14:12:09 - 00:14:21:03 Alison Very excited to hear more about some of the exclusive insights, particularly around Canadian consumer trends and where we might be different than what you're seeing globally. 00:14:21:05 - 00:14:42:09 Jenna Yeah, absolutely. One of my favourite parts of getting to work on projects is being able to explore the global nature of our trends, and when and where trends are spiking or migrating in a different market. So when we double click into Canada specifically, the data tells us that Canadian consumers, especially the younger ones, are gravitating towards trends that feel really authentic to their values. 00:14:42:14 - 00:15:11:18 Jenna Craftsmanship, bold self-expression, and connection to nature. One of my favourites, the biggest story in Canada, is laced up, so we're seeing it perform at 3.7 times the global rate overall. So that's pretty massive increase. And when we say laced up we're talking about lace collars. Bomber jackets, lace inspired nails, softly stitched bandanas, something about this handcrafted, delicate esthetic that seems to really be striking a chord, especially with younger Canadians. 00:15:11:18 - 00:15:33:02 Jenna And then there's Wilder Kind, which is that delicate, edible aesthetic. So think of the fun freckles and butterfly wing nail art. It's performing really strongly across Canada again, especially with Gen Z. But when you think about Canada's real, you know, historical relationship with nature and wildlife, it just makes total sense that this particular trend would really resonate in Canada. 00:15:33:02 - 00:16:00:17 Jenna We are seeing some interesting generational differences in our Canadian trends. So cabbage clash for example, is extremely popular for every segment in Canada except for Gen Z. So you got older Canadians really embracing this whole cabbage as a kitchen MVP trend, the blistered cabbage steaks and kimchi cocktails, while Gen Z is like, nope, not. But for us instead, they're saying that they're going to make calamari their thing instead. 00:16:00:17 - 00:16:11:22 Jenna And that's this really, this whole maximalist 80s luxury thing. Chunky belts, the baggy suits with those sculpted shoulders, all that bold gold jewelry. Gen Z Canadians are really here for it. 00:16:12:00 - 00:16:19:08 Alison So, Jenna, I'd love you to share how Canadian behaviours and preferences differ from what you're seeing, particularly compared to the US. 00:16:19:10 - 00:16:45:07 Jenna Absolutely. Let me layer our Canadian data with home and food categories in particular, some really distinct Canadian patterns emerge, especially when we contrast them against the US. So Canadian Gen-Z is embracing that vintage rebellion. So vintage styles are up 9% mid-century and French country seeing around 20% growth. And they're doing this in a really distinctly Canadian way that feels more grounded than other markets are. 00:16:45:11 - 00:17:18:16 Jenna Again, rejecting that minimalism. But without going to the extremes that you see sometimes in the US market, the food data really tells an interesting story. So Canadian pinners are 56% more likely to want responsibly sourced ingredients and 31% more likely to demand clear product labeling, which is significantly higher than global averages. So the trending category is in searches like Bountiful Bowls and protein powder swaps really reflect a unique and practical health conscious approach that feels very Canadian. 00:17:18:16 - 00:17:39:09 Jenna Another thing that really sets Canadians apart is intentionality. So in food health, as 39% of searches lead to outbound clicks, which is actually twice as high as...
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EP59 - AI Adoption: Why Canada's Falling Behind with Sabrina Geremia
12/16/2025
EP59 - AI Adoption: Why Canada's Falling Behind with Sabrina Geremia
Why isn't Canada a leader in AI adoption? Sabrina Geremia, Vice President & Country Managing Director at Google Canada, tells Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, that Canada was a leader in AI creation but is falling behind in adoption. With only 26% of Canadian organizations having adopted Generative AI, despite the potential to save workers 170 hours annually, Google suggests empowering people, accelerating AI value creation, and contributing to the Canadian national ecosystem. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:12 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:14 - 00:00:27:21 Alison The artificial intelligence revolution isn't just changing how we work. It's redefining what's possible for Canadian businesses and the economy as a whole. There are many benefits, but also risks associated with that are super important to understand. As AI continues to innovate at breakneck speed, the question really becomes how can Canadian marketers and businesses harness these advances to drive growth and close our productivity gap in ethical and responsible ways? For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Sabrina Geremia, VP and Country Manager for Google Canada. 00:00:54:10 - 00:01:25:21 Alison Sabrina will be celebrating her 20th anniversary with Google in May and next year Google is actually celebrating their 25th anniversary in Canada as well. Sabrina has led Google Canada's strategic direction and advertising business since 2017, focusing on fostering Canada's digital economy by assisting businesses in growth, supporting the tech sector and enhancing digital skills among Canadians. With over 25 years of experience spanning marketing, public relations, sales and general management, Sabrina brings a unique perspective to the intersection of technology and business transformation. 00:01:26:02 - 00:01:48:19 Alison Her journey actually began in consumer packaged goods before making a strategic pivot to technology during the early dot-com era. At Google she has held various leadership positions, including managing director of Integrated Solutions, building her expertise as a trusted advisor to Canada's C-suite. She's been recognized as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women and the recipient of the Women in Communication Technology Women of the Year Award. 00:01:49:01 - 00:02:11:00 Alison Sabrina is deeply committed to advancing digital skills and innovation in Canada. Her experience really positions her uniquely to speak about AI's potentially transformative impact on marketing, as well as Canada's productivity challenges and the evolution of digital advertising in an increasingly AI-driven landscape. Welcome, Sabrina. It is an absolute pleasure to have you join us today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation. 00:02:11:05 - 00:02:13:06 Sabrina Hi, Alison, it's so great to be here. 00:02:13:08 - 00:02:30:23 Alison So I'd like to kick things off by hearing a bit about your career. So as I mentioned, you started your career in consumer packaged goods with P&G, and then you pivoted and have spent the majority in tech, including your upcoming 20th anniversary with Google. What inspired you to change industries fairly early in your career and what's kept you in tech? 00:02:31:01 - 00:02:55:22 Sabrina Yeah, well, it's so great to be here and I love spending time with the CMA. You know, especially as a former board member, I know that the work that you do is so valuable and important to Canada. So thank you for that. Yeah, my career has been an interesting one. I have actually lived through the three arcs of technology. So I have been working for close to three decades, and I've kind of gone from no internet to the internet, from internet to mobile, 00:02:55:22 - 00:03:18:21 Sabrina and now this just enormous and transformative AI moment. And so pre-internet, I mean, I am Canadian, I grew up in Guelph, just outside of Toronto, and I went to Laurier, for university, and I did my last year in Italy as an exchange student. And from there I worked at Procter and Gamble. And when I worked at Procter and Gamble, it was really underlying what you know very well, Alison. 00:03:18:21 - 00:03:38:21 Sabrina Just like the importance of marketing and how important the foundation fundamentals of marketing are. So I worked there for about five years. I worked across cosmetics and some of their laundry business all across Italy. But I had friends who were in the Valley, and I saw the internet coming, and I knew that it was coming. And I just, you know, knew it was going to be very transformative. 00:03:38:21 - 00:03:58:01 Sabrina I remember one day driving past the Colosseum and just reflecting on like, wow, like that amazing moment when all of this new technology and these new advancements were happening in Rome. I want to be part of that. So I left my job and I did what, you know, many people do. I took a year to kind of move around. 00:03:58:01 - 00:04:16:16 Sabrina I did a lot of nonprofit work. I did a lot of volunteer work. I went to Asia. I did some work with the UN on what the internet could mean for the digital divide. And this was all, again, just at the emergence of the internet. And then I went and landed at Ask Jeeves and after that, Reckitt Benckiser and really learned the foundations of the internet. 00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:22 Sabrina And I was working in London and globally at that time. And then from there, Google found me, and I started working at Google in 2006, in London, in the UK, and I helped them set up like our whole consumer packaged goods practice on how were we going to work with CPG companies like Reckitt, like P&G, the largest advertisers in the world, and help them shift and transition to this internet future? 00:04:40:00 - 00:04:55:15 Sabrina So a little while later, I came back to Canada and was so happy to come back. And during my time and, you know, working all the aisles of the grocery store in Canada, that was the big shift to mobile. And the shift to mobile was big. Like, no one believed that you would ever buy a pair of running shoes on a mobile phone. 00:04:55:19 - 00:05:13:05 Sabrina And yet we know today people buy cars on mobile phone. They do all sorts of things on their mobile. The form factor had changed. And so, you know, fast forward to today. It's the third shift. It's a really big one. It's very transformative. We've done it before. We're going to do it again. And you know what inspires me really 00:05:13:06 - 00:05:36:19 Sabrina you know, to stay in tech, and I've been in tech like, you know, we said for over 20 years and even more, if you count my experience before Google, is that really it's our mission. Like our mission at Google in this moment is really on helpfulness, and it's making AI helpful for everybody. And in Canada, what inspires me is our shared mission as a team to help make Canada a global leader in AI in the value creation phase. 00:05:36:19 - 00:06:04:10 Sabrina We've been such leaders in the creation of the tech. I want us to be leaders in the adoption and value creation. And this really means empowering our people, it means accelerating AI value creation with all of the amazing partners that you work with every day, and also contributing to the national ecosystem in Canada, and and it really is important to get this right in Canada, because while we were leaders in the creation of AI, we're starting to fall behind in the adoption phase. 00:06:04:12 - 00:06:25:15 Alison I love your career story and the fact that you actually started internationally, spent a number of years. I also love that you've demonstrated great bravery as you decided I want to try something different. Most people would find another job and grow that way, and you took a bet on yourself that clearly paid off and led to some fascinating experiences, including work with the UN, and ultimately brought you to tech. 00:06:25:15 - 00:06:46:18 Alison So lesson number one for our listeners is that willingness to bet on yourself and take some measured risks throughout your career can be an amazing accelerator. So AI is certainly shaping the future across industries. From your perspective as head of Google at Canada, what do you see as the biggest opportunities that AI presents for businesses and the economy in Canada right now? 00:06:47:00 - 00:07:10:14 Sabrina That is a really important question, Alison, and probably one that I think about every day. We talked earlier about being so ahead in the primary research. If you think about many of the AI greats who contributed to this technology, a lot of them were here and a lot of them are here today. And, you know, we have a lot of great primary researchers and a lot of engineers and technological strength in the AI fields. 00:07:10:16 - 00:07:33:12 Sabrina But some of the latest reports are showing that we're lagging in the adoption of AI right now as an economy. So there was a Deloitte report out recently that only 26% of Canadian organizations have adopted AI, and that's about, you know, ten points lower than other companies in a global peer set. So this idea here that we created it, but we're not moving fast enough to adopt it. 00:07:33:14 - 00:07:57:09 Sabrina What's at stake is productivity and opportunity. And you know, the valuation of this is around 230 billion in economic impact for Canada. So that's eight points of GDP. It could save the average worker three and a half weeks per year, 170 hours per year of work. And that's kind of lower value tasks that then you can kind of uplevel and do different things and do them more effectively. 00:07:57:09 - 00:08:17:09 Sabrina So I think really about having Canadians being able to use the tools, adopt the tools. We know that people know it's important. We did a poll of businesses and 84% of C-levels in Canada and business leaders think that AI really does offer an important opportunity for the Canadian economy. Almost 80% of them agree that it's going to have a positive impact on productivity. 00:08:17:14 - 00:08:41:06 Sabrina But we need businesses of all shapes and sizes, from the SMBs to retailers, to manufacturing to agriculture. This is a multipurpose tool, right? We need adoption to accelerate and the value creation to follow that. So really it's about putting AI to work for Canadians today. And the really good news here is like we're talking to an audience of marketers, is that marketers are playing an outsized role in the adoption of AI at this moment. 00:08:41:08 - 00:08:44:12 Sabrina And they are leaders in using AI to supercharge their strategies and results. So we do know that it's working. 00:08:47:00 - 00:09:13:06 Alison Building on that, we did some CMA research and found out that, to your point, marketers are ahead of other Canadian knowledge groups, including scientists, so that's encouraging. But we're still sitting, I think 72%. So there's still lots of growth. We know even before AI, Canada's productivity gap is a real challenge. The fact that we had such an amazing head start and leadership role in AI, and we've given some of that up for sure. 00:09:13:08 - 00:09:24:03 Alison And then combine that with your recent research. Around 80% of Canadian business leaders know this is a powerful tool. So what do you think is getting in the way of our adoption? 00:09:24:05 - 00:09:44:13 Sabrina You know I mean I think we're going to get there. So I have faith in Canada. Like we are smart, we are resourceful and we are talented. But you know what we're focused on really Google Canada's two things - like one is really about skilling Canadians. Right. And people and skills matter foundationally so much. And then second is about creating and scaling business value. 00:09:44:13 - 00:10:01:09 Sabrina So if we look at the people and skills there, there is some data to suggest that Canadians are a little more fearful of AI than their global peers. And that is probably, you know, creating some of the adoption lag here. And we know the opportunity and it's 230 billion. But we know that Canadians want to learn AI skills. 00:10:01:09 - 00:10:19:09 Sabrina And so 63% of Canadian workers want to acquire these skills. I was in a cafe this weekend and I was with my son, and we were sitting next to two people who were working on laptops, and he kind of gave me the elbow and he said, listen, mummy, they're talking and teaching each other how to use Gemini. So they were in a cafe teaching each other how to use Google Gemini. 00:10:19:09 - 00:10:41:23 Sabrina I think they might have been teachers. And I turned to him and I said, yeah, because everybody knows that using these tools is really going to help them supercharge their skills and supercharge what they're doing. So we are trying to contribute to that through, we launched an AI Opportunity Fund. It's a $13 million fund, and it's a goal to actually support two million with AI skills. 00:10:41:23 - 00:11:07:03 Sabrina So 2 million Canadians supercharged with AI skills. We have an amazing roster of nonprofits and partners that we're working with, like the Alberta Machine Intelligence Institute, Skills for Change, the First Nations Technology Council, and the Toronto Public Library. If you live in Toronto and you go into a TPL branch, you will probably see a sign that says, join us for learning circle around a Grow with Google AI Essential certificate. 00:11:07:03 - 00:11:25:14 Sabrina And so these certificates are micro-credentials. They're short courses that you can do in one batch, or you can do it a little bit at a time. And it's really helping people use the schools to be more effective in their work, and to build practical, hands on AI skills. This AI essentials that is part of the Grow with Google portfolio, 00:11:25:18 - 00:11:46:11 Sabrina it's the most popular Gen AI course on Coursera of all time globally, and what I find really promising about it is we talk to many of the people who have graduated, and there's been 54,000 Canadians who have graduated so far, and 75% of them are reporting a positive career outcome after they take this course. They might get a promotion. 00:11:46:11 - 00:12:04:15 Sabrina Then maybe they get to work on a new project. They might find a job. And so we know that when they, you know, work on their skills and learn how to use these tools, they create value. So I think the skilling of Canadians is really foundational. It's really important. I encourage anyone listening who wants to learn to check out the Grow with Google. 00:12:04:15 - 00:12:26:17 Sabrina There are also many other options out there. But again, we want to get every Canadian, not just the 2 million powered up with AI skills. Then the second area is really about business value creation. Like we have to accelerate the business adoption and value creation as the tools are emerging. And one of the things that I think is really important is that AI isn't a strategy. 00:12:26:22 - 00:12:47:02 Sabrina Your business strategy can deliver more with AI. So I'm always asking folks like, what is your business strategy enabled by AI? Right? And then that becomes a totally different conversation. And that's really important for marketers, like marketers right now, it's it's a tough balancing job. And you know this, right? You you probably hear it from all of the CMA members every day. 00:12:47:07 - 00:13:08:07 Sabrina You're being asked to drive exponential growth. You're being asked to do it while delivering on efficiency. You're being asked to do new creative things differently. And what we've seen is that leading marketers who are using AI are seeing 60% business results, whether it's making media work better, finding new customers you didn't know you were looking for, it could be personalizing creative and delivering it at scale. 00:13:08:11 - 00:13:32:14 Sabrina It might be back end processes where you're iterating, etc. or it might be in the emerging fields of solving customer needs better with AI agents. So when I look at all of these use cases with a really powered up workforce in Canada that knows how to use these tools, I think that this is the building block of really seeing that 230 billion economic impact for Canada become real. 00:13:32:14 - 00:13:46:08 Sabrina I see so many glimmers of this happening, and I just, you know, my hope for Canada is that we can figure out what works, we can scale it quickly, and we can avoid pilot paralysis where we're stuck in a bunch of pilots. We're actually scaling what's working. 00:13:46:12 - 00:14:22:22 Alison Well said. And I share your optimism for Canada as well. And I was at your kickoff for the $13 million accelerator. And just to see the organizations that you're partnering with and the active role you're playing in helping upskill 2 million Canadians is such an important step in our ability to really deliver on the opportunity. Now you talked a bit about how this is impacting marketing, and you're absolutely right that whether it's AI or any new major market shift, consumer shift or technological shift, when you're sitting around the executive table, all eyes tend to turn to the CMO first with an expectation that we're going to figure it out first, which also can be a little intimidating. 00:14:22:22 - 00:14:40:14 Alison You've had over two decades in tech. You've seen incredible transformation, including the three major cycles that you've talked a bit about. How have Canadians habits, especially around expectations of brand and marketing, fundamentally evolved during this time, leading us into today's more AI-driven landscape? 00:14:40:16 - 00:15:03:23 Sabrina It's evolving. You know, on the whole premise, one of the main values of Google is like, you know, follow the user and all else will follow. And as technology emerges, user behaviour evolves. And it's happening pretty quick. So Google DeepMind, which is our primary research, it's our team at Google and it's led by Demis Hassabis. And he actually says that it's it's happening at 10x the industrial revolution, happening at 10x the speed. 00:15:04:01 - 00:15:20:14 Sabrina So if you put that math together, it's happening at 100x. So maybe, you know, I'll share a little story with you. Like I realized that I needed to buy a swimsuit for an upcoming trip. And so I turned to Search and I started searching for swimsuits. And I came across a new brand that I had never heard of, which is called Left on Friday. 00:15:20:16 - 00:15:44:12 Sabrina And I thought, that's really interesting. I'd like to learn more. Like, is this a Canadian-founded company? That was the question that I asked. And it actually took me to AI Overviews. And it told me, yes, indeed it was. It's a company founded by two Canadians and they're based in BC, and they have created this brand. So then I pivoted to AI Mode, which is the tab that actually allows you to have a conversational experience with the AI. 00:15:44:16 - 00:16:04:06 Sabrina And I started asking about their product assortment reviews and doing comparisons and so on. Then I went back to Search and I asked to go to the site, and I started looking at places that I could buy it, and I found out where the store was, and there's one in Toronto. And so this is just such a perfect example of how Canadian consumers are just doing things differently. 00:16:04:06 - 00:16:27:18 Sabrina Right? It's more complex. They're searching, they're streaming, they're scrolling, they're shopping. They're watching the game, often simultaneously. Right? They're doing a lot of things all at once. And consumers are now interacting with around 130 mobile touch points a day. So when you think about that story of what I did, like, you know, the the AI overviews, 2 billion people are seeing this every month. 00:16:27:18...
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EP58 - Why All Marketing is Performance Driven with Lauren Bradeen
12/03/2025
EP58 - Why All Marketing is Performance Driven with Lauren Bradeen
Isn't all marketing performance driven? Lauren Bradeen, CMO and Partner at Deloitte, challenges the traditional brand-versus-performance debate in her conversation with Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA. When Lauren stepped into the CMO role, she was driven to evolve the B2B marketing industry playbook. Now she's leading a transformation to help B2B marketers build marketing teams that are confident in the value they bring, rather than constantly justifying every dollar. Plus, Lauren shares why being a 'capability collector' is the secret to career advancement. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:11 - 00:00:47:22 Alison I'm very happy to welcome Lauren Bradeen, Chief Marketing Officer and Partner at Deloitte Canada, for today's episode. Lauren is leading a comprehensive marketing transformation that's redefining how one of the world's premier professional services firms is approaching the integration of brand and performance marketing. Her expertise and strategic thinking have been showcased in industry publications, where she's contributed insights on the evolving challenges facing modern marketers. 00:00:48:00 - 00:01:10:06 Alison Lauren's also been actively engaged in developing the next generation of marketing talent, recently participating as a guest speaker at our CMA NXT Marketing Careers Night, and she was also a judge for this year's CMA Awards. What sets Lauren apart is her journey from in the business into marketing leadership. She really understands how Deloitte works with clients, the processes behind it, and how to speak the language of the business. 00:01:10:08 - 00:01:33:06 Alison Currently, she's leading Deloitte Marketing through what she calls the messy middle, an important part of any transformation. And they're moving from an operational marketing function to a strategic brand and growth engine with their own targets and accountability, all while maintaining Deloitte's position as the number one brand globally in the category. With marketing leaders across industries grappling with the false choice between brand building and performance marketing, 00:01:33:07 - 00:01:46:02 Alison Lauren's approach can offer a roadmap for how these traditionally siloed functions really need to work together to drive real business success. Welcome, Lauren, I am absolutely thrilled to have you join us here today, and I'm looking forward to a terrific conversation. 00:01:46:04 - 00:01:48:04 Lauren Thank you. Alison. So am I. 00:01:48:06 - 00:01:59:04 Alison So let's get started with your story. When you stepped into the CMO role at Deloitte, what was it that resonated for you about that role and what were some of your early priorities? 00:01:59:06 - 00:02:20:08 Lauren So I would offer that my journey into the role might have been a little bit more unconventional, as I was actually offered the role while on maternity leave, and so that really provided me a bit of space without an existing mandate to be focused on, to really think about the opportunity. And there were three things that surfaced for me. 00:02:20:10 - 00:02:42:12 Lauren The first was to drive a greater impact for the firm. And so this role supports all of our businesses and all of our industries. And so within that, I have the opportunity to actually learn from and work with leaders across operate and consulting services and tax and legal, ER and I G.P.S. And so that was really, really interesting for me. 00:02:42:14 - 00:03:14:23 Lauren The second was I had felt like the B2B playbook had not made as much progress over the last decade. And so I was excited about this opportunity for an industry that felt pretty ripe for transformation. And then the third piece was, what an honour. And so when they offered me the role, I felt like from a personal career perspective, the growth, the leadership opportunity to work with this large, incredible team, it just felt like something that I absolutely couldn't turn down. 00:03:15:01 - 00:03:38:13 Lauren And so being on maternity leave, that also gave me a bit of space in a different way to think about what I wanted to do before I actually started the role. And so as I stepped into the role, the immediate priorities I had gone in with a bit of like blue sky unconstrained strategy, what were all the things that I would have loved when I was in the business? 00:03:38:15 - 00:03:57:18 Lauren And then once I started the role and did my listening tour, in that first month, I was really able to validate, invalidate, gain new ideas from the team, hear all the things that they had always wanted to do, but maybe felt like they couldn't. And so right off the bat, the focus was just getting the strategy set. 00:03:57:19 - 00:04:15:07 Lauren I started in Q2 as well for Deloitte, and so I felt like if I waited too long, it could actually be a bit more disruptive. And so we got that strategy in place, shared out this strategy so that everybody on the team felt part of and very clear on, what was our mission and what were we rallying around. 00:04:15:08 - 00:04:36:03 Lauren And then the immediate priorities were around the areas that needed the most modernization in order to deliver on that strategy. And so we set up what we called task forces. There was about six of them, they're like mini consulting projects around things like digital transformation and KPIs and measurement. There were a few new capabilities we wanted to stand on, like our content studio. 00:04:36:05 - 00:04:40:06 Lauren And so those were the immediate priorities that we took on once I stepped into the role. 00:04:40:08 - 00:04:52:13 Alison I absolutely love that Deloitte gave you the promotion when you were on mat leave. That speaks so incredibly well of the culture, and the signal that that would have sent across the organization is incredibly powerful. 00:04:52:15 - 00:05:10:03 Lauren I will reinforce that. I felt incredibly honoured and also very proud of Deloitte for giving me that opportunity while on maternity leave. I also asked my leader, like, do you think this is something that I can do as a new mom? And she was like, I think you can do this because you're a new mom. Like the the perspective you'll bring. 00:05:10:03 - 00:05:15:13 Lauren And so that was definitely a very proud moment for me, for the firm. 00:05:15:15 - 00:05:45:02 Alison That's amazing. Now, one of the big themes in marketing today is the ongoing tension between brand marketing and performance marketing. It is so often treated as an "either or" instead of an "and" relationship. So with that as a backdrop, I know you're leading a significant transformation at Deloitte around performance marketing. I'd love you to share your approach to structuring and changing marketing within the organization to be more performance driven, acknowledging that the brand part is an important part of driving that performance as well. 00:05:45:03 - 00:06:08:04 Lauren So first and foremost, I've never loved the term performance marketing. I can appreciate that what felt like quite suddenly, marketers could track a sale and attribute a dollar to the marketing spend. It was very exciting. But I actually think we did a disservice by categorizing a part of marketing as performance, because then what is everything else in service of? 00:06:08:06 - 00:06:32:00 Lauren And so I feel like the pendulum swung now back to needing a more balanced approach. And that's absolutely how we are embracing it. And so we call it "from brand to demand". And all marketing is performance driven. But it's in service of different KPIs. And so in terms of how we're thinking about performance marketing holistically, and you need that KPI framework. 00:06:32:00 - 00:07:03:01 Lauren So we have quantifiable KPIs across brand, eminence consideration and growth. And we work in service of that KPI framework. The next thing I'd say, that we have done, again, in service of this broader performance marketing definition, is being a little bit less binary around how we look at spend. And so I think even when performance marketing started being talked about, you'd say, okay, well, we need to invest this percentage of our budget on performance marketing and then this percentage on everything else. 00:07:03:03 - 00:07:27:07 Lauren Whereas the percentage splits or the way in which you flex your budget is very dependent on what you are marketing and the challenges that you're facing. We know that through things like media mixed modelling and different incrementality and approaches, you're going to learn what the right budget split at a given time is. But I do think we need to be more fluid in our approaches to budget and spending. 00:07:27:12 - 00:07:58:01 Lauren And so we're really thinking about, what are the needs of our business, what are the needs of our client, and what does that mean from a spend split perspective? In the same way that you wouldn't look at the cost to acquire every segment the same. And so I think that comes back to everything needing to be in service of that KPI framework, because if you're only looking at something like the cost per acquisition, you're going to miss out on more flexible budgeting and spend split strategy, which would actually be in service of more growth. 00:07:58:03 - 00:08:22:12 Lauren And then the last thing I'd offer is just the short term - long term balance. We're very lucky because Deloitte is a very client centric business, and we don't have the pressures of maybe a tech company or a consumer company where they have targets every week to meet on sales. Just by nature of the velocity of our sales cycle, we are more of a longer term business. 00:08:22:12 - 00:08:45:01 Lauren And so we have that long term longevity of the business, longevity of the brand mindset. So I will be the first to admit that it is probably easier for us, but we know and the data shows that you have to think about the decisions that you're making in totality. If you stop investing in the brand, it makes it a lot harder and more expensive later to make up for that market share. 00:08:45:03 - 00:08:56:00 Alison Now, building on that, how do you define a high performance marketing function today and what does great look like? And I'd also love you to talk a little bit about how has that definition evolved. 00:08:56:02 - 00:09:28:22 Lauren So I think there's two parts of a high performance marketing team. There is the "what" and then there is the "how". And the "what" from my perspective is exactly what I just talked about. It's the KPI framework. And so every organization should have quantified targets across brands straight through to the bottom of the funnel. And with those quantified targets, there is a need for both a baseline and a benchmark view on those things so that you know you're not being too insular and what you're reaching for. 00:09:29:00 - 00:09:48:12 Lauren But we also know that we ultimately have to continue to optimize and improve on our own metrics, because that's the data that we control, and we see and can compare apples to apples. And so once you have that, you have the targets for your KPI strategy. That's when you know what high performance is because that is meeting or exceeding all of your targets. 00:09:48:14 - 00:10:19:08 Lauren And then how do you meet and exceed your targets? That is your strategy, your people and then your process data and tech. And so to me people is actually decoupled from the others because people and culture are what you truly need to unleash to be high performance. If you have a culture of innovation and curiosity and testing and learning, a really like relentless and dedicated and excited team, you are going to be able to reach your targets time and time again, 00:10:19:10 - 00:10:47:07 Lauren better than those that maybe don't have that culture where people feel really empowered and unconstrained. And then how you enable those people is through that virtuous cycle of process, tech and data. I'm in my head seeing like a slide because I am maybe a consultant at heart now, and so that's how I can visualize it is you really have like your people at the top, and then you've got that underpinning of the process, tech and data, and then your culture is the enabler. 00:10:47:12 - 00:11:06:10 Lauren And of course this evolves. So the inputs into those things is constantly evolving because we are in an industry that is never standing still in the same way that the conversations we're having about technology. We have technologies in a martech perspective that we weren't even talking about five years ago, whether that's your customer data platform or what have you. 00:11:06:15 - 00:11:24:08 Lauren And same with data and AI. And so you always have to be iterating and evolving the inputs. But I think that framing of ensuring that there's a connectedness behind your process, tech and data to empower and really unleash your people is what will get you to the most high performance outcomes and culture. 00:11:24:10 - 00:12:00:05 Alison Dividing it into the "what" and the "how" is a really powerful way to simplify a very complex topic. And then I'm in passionate agreement with you on the critical role of people and culture as really being the the secret weapon in driving true performance. When you think about the world of AI and how it's impacting very positively and potentially negatively our profession and our world, knowing that the culture and the people are such a differentiator should give everyone some comfort that while AI can be a very powerful tool, it's not going to replace us. 00:12:00:07 - 00:12:17:03 Lauren I'm of the same mindset. At Deloitte we talk about human-led, AI-enabled, and so there are absolutely incredible use cases for us to be elevating and improving the way we work. But the human potential and the authenticity of people, that is the power. 00:12:17:05 - 00:12:38:21 Alison And it can really help us scale. And when you think applying that to smaller businesses, it can be a very powerful competitive advantage as well. Lauren Absolutely. Alison So now we're going to do a little bit of myth-busting. And you've touched on this a bit. But between people, process, tech and data, what's the real unlock or the biggest myth that you'd like to bust about what actually drives performance? 00:12:38:23 - 00:13:01:00 Lauren Yeah, I maybe, gave the plot away a little bit on the last one. I'm, passionately in the camp of people. One of the offerings that I worked with clients on when I was in the consulting business was around upskilling. And in upskilling we were bringing forward the demos around the tech and deeper understanding of the data. 00:13:01:02 - 00:13:29:22 Lauren But one of the biggest, I think, challenges that organizations face is they invest a lot of money in the martech, a lot of money in the data, the integration of the systems, etc. and they expect that that and that alone will yield the outcomes. And then the business cases aren't being realized because they forget the fact that if you look at any go to market process, that the person that is running that process or taking you through that process, they have to have an understanding of the tech. 00:13:29:22 - 00:13:52:11 Lauren If you are writing a brief or you are delivering on a brief, if you're a creative or your immediate team or agency, and you don't have an understanding of the tech that can segment or better personalize or dynamic creative, you're not going to be able to write or receive that brief in the same way as somebody that does have the understanding of that tech and that data. 00:13:52:13 - 00:14:20:08 Lauren And so I think the biggest myth to bust is just the idea that you can, like, tech your way into high performance. You need the infrastructure, you need the martech, you need the connected data. But if you discount the need to upskill your people around that, or to build a culture where people get excited about that change and that progress and optimizing the tools that they use to get to market, then you won't yield the outcomes that you hoped for. 00:14:20:10 - 00:14:44:07 Alison Very well said. Now another passion that we share is the mission critical role that marketing plays in building businesses and contributing to Canada's economy. Yet we still at times struggle to get a seat at the table. So I'd love you to share how you see marketing as a strategic growth engine, and how you've been able to fight and get that important seat at the table with Deloitte. 00:14:44:09 - 00:15:05:06 Lauren So I think and I believe we can do this through the Canadian Marketing Association. All of the marketers need to hold hands and decide that we're just going to put the debate to bed once and for all, because has any other function in the history of business had to prove themselves and bring as much data to the table as marketing has. 00:15:05:08 - 00:15:28:07 Lauren I don't think so. And so I think if you look at the business case of marketing as an engine for brand and growth, and again, we have brought like the data-driven empirical proof that marketing drives growth. So there is a great study around looking at the impact of brand spend. And so organizations that are having a more holistic approach to marketing. 00:15:28:11 - 00:15:51:20 Lauren What is the impact long term on sales CAGR? And they saw that those in the bottom quartile had 13 percentage points lower CAGRs than the top quartile. We've seen digital conversion points. We've seen e-commerce and the ability to track and attribute marketing to sales. We've seen the impact of cross-sell upsell in the customer onboarding, the ability to deepen customer lifetime value. 00:15:51:22 - 00:16:21:14 Lauren I think every organization and every marketer has the industry data to showcase brand and marketing as a driver of growth, as well as the stats and the data-driven proof points within your organization. And so I think that as long as a marketer is coming to the table with that data that we have to just put it to bed a little bit and have the confidence that we've already justified that marketing is a really, really great engine, both for brand and growth. 00:16:21:16 - 00:16:42:19 Alison For our listeners who aren't familiar with the research that Lauren cited, we'll make sure that we add it into the notes for the podcast so that you can access it. Lauren, you have an approach to reporting on marketing measurement that would be aspirational for many of our listeners. You track marketing ROI internally with your team and focus on brand health metrics when you're presenting to the executive. 00:16:42:21 - 00:16:48:07 Alison Can you walk us through this philosophy and how you're building credibility with the business using this process? 00:16:48:08 - 00:17:13:10 Lauren Well, thank you for that, Alison. I would agree. We have a fantastic foundation and strategy, but of course we are on a continuous journey to be more sophisticated. And so we're actually about to start some consulting projects with our analytics and marketing teams around automation, more AI enablement. And we have a fantastic new head of marketing analytics. So it really does feel like everything is coming together. 00:17:13:10 - 00:17:41:02 Lauren But at its core, from an approach to reporting perspective, one critical thing I'd offer, which is just that brand to demand connected reporting view. And so for us, every campaign is categorized and it supports a specific set of KPIs that is from that broader set of KPIs in our framework that tells our performance story. And then we have different levels of reporting that are all connected. 00:17:41:04 - 00:18:04:16 Lauren And so at the highest...
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EP57 - The Future of Work with Mark Beckles
11/20/2025
EP57 - The Future of Work with Mark Beckles
Are you upskilling fast enough to stay ahead of AI and tech disruption? Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mark Beckles, CEO of Palette Skills, who's leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. With 71% of workers wanting to upgrade their skills regularly, Mark reveals how the Palette Skills program upskills people in weeks - not months. From generating $200 million in economic output to reshaping careers, learn why Mark believes the future of work belongs to those who pursue 'latticed' careers instead of climbing traditional ladders. [00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. [00:00:23] Alison: The future of work is here as artificial intelligence and tech disruption reshape entire industries at breakneck speed. The question isn't whether Canadian workers need to upskill, but whether we can do it fast enough to stay ahead of the change and keep our country thriving. For today's episode, I'm thrilled to welcome Mark Beckles, Chief Executive Officer at Palette Skills. [00:00:45] Alison: Mark joined Palette Skills in July and shares our passion for upskilling Canadians to ensure that they can innovate and compete both here at home as well as globally. Mark brings more than 25 years of senior leadership experience in financial services and the nonprofit sector known for driving large transformational initiatives and delivering true business value. [00:01:05] Alison: At RBC, Mark led the Future Launch initiative that equipped 5.5 million young Canadians for the future of work. He also spearheaded RBC Upskill, a national tool that helps individuals align their skills with emerging careers. Previously, Mark served as President and CEO of the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for Canada. [00:01:24] Alison: At Palette Skills, Mark and his team are leading Canada's largest upskilling initiative. His work is particularly timely as tech disruption, especially AI, are continuing to reshape entire industries and redefine what skills will be most valuable in the future. What makes Mark's perspective particularly valuable is just front row seat to workforce transformation through pallet skills programs. [00:01:47] Alison: He can see not just what skills employers are seeking, but why they're upskilling their employees, which really provides some great early insights into how tech is driving change across Canada's economy in every province. With ongoing discussions about Canada's productivity gap, Mark's insights into upskilling and innovation couldn't be more relevant or timelier. [00:02:07] Alison: Welcome, Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you join me on CMA Connect today. [00:02:11] Mark: Thank you for having me on, Alison, such a pleasure to be here with you today. Alison: Now I want to kick things off by hearing more about your career journey. In particular, I'd love to know what drew you to focus on social responsibility throughout your career, and what made the transition to Palette Skills such a natural fit for you? [00:02:28] Mark: Well, thanks for the question, Alison. I, I would start by saying that I spent most of my time, most of my career in corporate, but there was one intersectional moment in the early 2000s where I made a conscious decision to step away and to invest my skills in the nonprofit sector. And for context, I, you know, developed these skills around risk management when I was, uh, working in the insurance sector and discovered that these skills were easily transferable to the nonprofit sector where I worked in relief development at first and then had the awesome opportunity to, uh, then work for the Nelson Mandela Children's Fund for a number of of years. [00:03:12] Mark: And, uh, as a result of that, I became acutely aware of this notion that profit and purpose can coexist in the same ecosystem, and that I could more effectively translate the language of the nonprofit sector to the corporate sector and the language of the corporate sector to the nonprofit sector, because of course, one's from Mars and the other from Venus. [00:03:33] Mark: But in having this sort of cross sector experience or these cross-sector experiences, it really has enriched my life and really helped me understand the ways in which I can help create value for society by bringing these really strong corporate skills to the nonprofit sector and taking a real deep understanding of the issues and challenges, uh, facing the nonprofit sector rather, and what they're trying to solve, and making sure that the corporate sector and governments and other stakeholders understand. [00:04:03] Mark: And so in the context of Palette Skills, I just absolutely enjoy the work that we're doing because we're actually helping to ensure that we can sort of fuel Canada's economic prosperity. Alison: It's such a great personal example because when you think about working in a big bank, working in risk in the insurance sector, and then moving to nonprofit, a lot of our listeners, a lot of people would think, how is that possible? [00:04:26] Alison: You're gonna be starting from scratch and not really appreciate how transferable those skills are. In my career, I've had similar opportunities where I've worked in very, very different industries, yet some of the challenges are the same, and the skills are a lot more transferable than many people assume. [00:04:42] Mark: So I like that you have that personal perspective as you're going into head one of Canada's largest upskilling programs as well. Mark: Absolutely. I, I think to a large degree, most employees, most Canadians, don't understand or appreciate the extent to which their skills are actually transferrable across careers and across sectors. [00:05:01] Mark: And that's one of the great joys of the work that we do, that I did at RBC, and now that we do it at Upscale Canada, to help workers to help employees understand the transferability of skills of workers. Alison: Absolutely. Yeah, diversity of experience, diversity of thought makes us all better at what we do, so it's a great, great confirmation. [00:05:19] Alison: I mentioned in my opening that we are absolutely seeing unprecedented tech disruption, particularly with AI. So you clearly have a front row seat to workforce transformation, and I'd love to hear what early trends are you seeing in terms of how and why employers are upskilling their employees. [00:05:37] Mark: It's a great question Alison. Uh, a couple of things I would offer, first of which is upskilled workers get the most up to date skills and are ready to hit the ground running in four months or less. And these are employees who have an immediate impact. And the second is that workforce development is critical and cannot start when people are in the workforce. [00:05:57] Mark: Uh, and such that we need to be thinking about upskilling as a tool of lifelong learning. And these programs can adapt at speed and they can innovate and modernize, making them essential for job seekers and for businesses who are looking to adapt. So the constant change that we are seeing in sectors like yours, like marketing for example, education and training can no longer be once and done. [00:06:22] Mark: And for those of us who've had careers over time know that we have actually had to undergo, uh, upskilling or reskilling, whether formal or informal ways. So, so that, you know, to Upskill Canada, we maximize our impact when we work with multiple stakeholders, corporate partnerships and funders and employers and delivery partners. [00:06:42] Mark: It's not just about employers who are looking to hire for these up-to-date skills. We also serve employers who want to up, uh, upskill their employees as well. I think of RBC funding at the level of $500,000 for a program that supports small and medium sized enterprises and responsible adoption of AI technology, and that will be launched in 2026. [00:07:07] Mark: And that's an example of how when working with corporate partners, we can accelerate the impact that we're trying to have. But of course, business leaders and employees and job seekers will be upskilled in weeks, not months as a result of that investment. The other thing that we know is that 71% of workers [00:07:25] Mark: absolutely want to update their skills more often. And 80% believe that employers should invest, uh, more in providing upskilling and reskilling. So upskilling helps with employee retention and uh, and employee satisfaction. And I would say that we can even work with employers to develop the programming [00:07:44] Mark: they need to make sure that their employees have the right skills to do their jobs more efficiently and more effectively. So when we talk about upskilling employees, it's an ongoing opportunity, an ongoing process. And you know, any sector that wants to be successful is gonna have to turn attention to ensuring that they're billing that robust human capital to ensure that they're competitive. [00:08:09] Alison: It's such a compelling stat that so many Canadian workers want to update their skills, and you make a great point that that's a surefire way to improve employee retention and employee satisfaction. What do you think holds employers back from doing more upskilling? Mark: I think one of the issues and challenges that holds employers back is [00:08:28] Mark: oftentimes, particularly in small businesses, they don't know what they need in terms of, you know, where they need to upskill their employees. Oftentimes, small organizations don't have, uh, the capital, the, the, the resources to be able to upskill and reskill, uh, in real time. Oftentimes, they're unaware of the, the challenges that they are facing. [00:08:49] Mark: Yet you have employees who often can see before their employers do the kinds of skills that, that they, the employees will need to thrive and to prosper and to help their, uh, employers thrive and prosper. So that, I think there, there needs to be greater attention and awareness on the part of businesses to understand, you know, the skills needs of their employees and what those employers will need to focus on [00:09:13] Mark: to ensure that they can sustain their businesses, that they can continue to compete, particularly in a world that is rapidly changing, where the challenges of tomorrow are gonna be very different from the challenges of yesterday, and that the fight for survival and, and the war for talent is going to be real, and that employers are gonna have to spend more attention, understanding where they need to compete. [00:09:37] Alison: Small and medium enterprises really drive Canada's economy, so to ensure they have the upskilled talent they need to continue thriving both here and globally is mission critical. And then when I think about the role Upskill Canada and Palette are playing, like that's an amazing resource for SMEs to be able to leverage in order to help upskill their teams and their talent so they can compete. [00:10:01] Alison: Now I'd love to talk specifically, clearly my bias, specifically more about marketing and creative professionals. So how do you think marketers need to approach upskilling differently given the rapid pace of tech change, especially around AI? Mark: That's a great question, because you know at first sight one might conclude that your space is ripe for disruption, and to some degree it is. [00:10:24] Mark: But this is where upskilling model allows for these sorts of pivots where upskilling can rapidly evolve and train people efficiently in response to the issues and challenges and opportunities that you're seeing in your space. So the programs like Digital Marketing Skills Canada are pivoting to make sure that marketers get the right skills for a long career. [00:10:46] Mark: And Alison, I know that the CMA has made a few pivots, even adapting to serving new sectors, and your programs have been updated. Perhaps you might wanna share with me what CMA has done about the success of the DMSC. Alison: Mark, thanks for turning the table on me in my typical role of host. I'm more than happy to answer that question. [00:11:05] Alison: So, as you mentioned, the CMA leads the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, and we deliver training programs in partnership with Growclass and Jelly Academy. So we have courses that provide crucial digital marketing and business skills for marketers at every stage, including people that are brand new and want to change industries, want to get into marketing to quite senior. [00:11:24] Alison: And the CMA and our partners also provide mission critical AI training, and that's been one of the important pivots we've made. As AI continues to evolve, we're constantly updating and refreshing our programming to make sure that our graduates are well positioned to really leverage these skills to grow businesses and brands. [00:11:42] Alison: And then I'll, I'll brag a little bit. So since we launched the DMSC program in 2024, we've now upskilled 1900 marketing professionals from every province across the country, and we have a couple in the Yukon as well, and after upgrading their marketing skills, our graduates have gone on to support over seven hundred [00:12:00] Alison: small and medium enterprises and really help those businesses grow their businesses, grow their sales, and really contribute job placement. So once they graduate, we have a track record of placing 75% of our graduates into a new role. And then we've also done a very good job of [00:12:22] Alison: really supporting underrepresented groups. It was part of our original submission to DMSC and a really important priority for the CMA and our partners. So we have over 70% of our graduates and learners are from underrepresented groups, and that's just a sign of our deep commitment to EDI and, and a positive impact that we're having to make sure that the marketing profession is as equitable and diverse as the country that we represent. [00:12:48] Mark: That is absolutely fantastic. Those are, those are stats that, uh, the CMA should be proud of. And when you think of this Pan-Canadian approach that you have, you know, delivering a program that is digital first, that is inclusive, uh, that allows for participation right across the country, that strengthens your sector, that creates, uh, career opportunities, [00:13:13] Mark: that is inclusive. Those are all the things that make these programs successful, and I, I truly think that CMA should be really proud of those outcomes. And we are just so thrilled to be partnering with you on this. Alison: We hope together we're just getting started. We see a very bright future for sure, and there's certainly a significant need. [00:13:30] Alison: We've got wait lists in the hundreds, so the more successful we are, the more we're seeing people raise their hand to want to be a part of it. Now from when Upskills Canada's initiative was first formed to today, what are the major changes that you've seen in upskilling needs across Canada? Mark: Well, the first thing I would say is because the program and the upskilling model is, is employer-led, it means that we are able to adjust programs and and to sort of meet [00:13:57] Mark: the demands of employers as the, as the market shifts. And then of course, given the economic changes we are seeing, those changes require us to be increasingly more, uh, responsive to changes at the sector level. And of course, given that there is a growing number of workers in tariff hit industries that will need support, we will have to continue to be increasingly more adaptive and responsive to, to the needs of employers and to the needs of employees. Upskill Canada programs then are designed exactly to be adaptive [00:14:38] Mark: and to allow for pivots along with, uh, the job market. And, and when we talk about rapid upskilling, it's because it's not going to take a worker two or four years to get the critical skills that they need. It's going to take a matter of, uh, of weeks. And that is again, the beauty of the Upskill Canada program. [00:15:00] Mark: The flexibility, the adaptability of it, the ability to change and respond to what's happening in markets and, and sectors in, in real time. And when I think of where we need to go as a country, our ability to flex and, and pivot, given some of the geopolitical challenges that we are being confronted with, will require us to do that at pace and at scale. [00:15:25] Alison: The DMSC programs is a great example of a few of the things that you've talked about. We, to your point, it, our programs are six or seven weeks. Now I will say they are an intense six or seven weeks, but our graduates come out of that with the skills they need to really do modern marketing and thrive. And then the pivoting based on where tariffs are coming and going, [00:15:44] Mark: the Canadian industries that need greater support. Advanced manufacturing is a great example of that where, when Palette and the Government came and said, we need more support in agritech and advanced manufacturing, we were very quickly able to pivot our programs and customize those for those industries in need and deliver in a matter of weeks instead of months. [00:16:04] Alison: So it's a really powerful element of what you're doing at Palette Skills through the Upskill Canada program as well. And when we look at the broader picture, knowing that Canada does have a productivity gap and that fueling innovation is so mission critical to our growth, why is workforce development in your perspective so critical to both productivity as well as our country's ability to innovate? [00:16:28] Mark: That was a great question and, and I, I would answer that question in the context of the bold ambition that, that, that Prime Minister Carney has, uh, articulated and has continued to articulate for the last number of months. To which I would say that Canada will not be able to meet even the ambitious goals that he has set without a national skill strategy, which must include upskilling. [00:16:53] Mark: I am deeply happy to see his announcements, for example, on national projects and so on. But those projects won't happen without people and the supply chains into those projects won't happen without people. Whether those supply chains are, are, are digital, whether they are focused on marketing, whether they're focused on communications, whether they're focused on infrastructure, regardless, won't happen without people. [00:17:21] Mark: So when I talk about a national skill strategy to include upskilling, it is to ensure that in the delivery of any and all of those projects, there needs to be a focus on people. Because Canada is grappling with an unprecedented shift in the economic fundamentals that have, uh, allowed for our prosperity to this point. [00:17:41] Mark: But if we don't invest in workforce development, we risk leaving billions of productivity and innovation untapped with talent sidelined instead of contributing to the industries that need them the most. I think we recognize that there's a growing reality that right skilled workers will be the key to our prosperity and resilience. [00:18:04] Mark: So whether it is a large scale workforce development that requires a national collaborative model that aligns training with industry, and that needs to be connected to talent and connecting talent to opportunity quickly to ensure that that happens, that's where we need to focus our attention. But ultimately, Canada's prosperity [00:18:23] Mark: depends on ensuring that we are providing people, equipping people with the right skills at the right time so that we can seize the opportunities in the industries that...
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EP56 - Canadian Innovation Changing The World: Mark Mandato and Chris Sewell
11/11/2025
EP56 - Canadian Innovation Changing The World: Mark Mandato and Chris Sewell
Can Canadian innovation change the world? In today's episode, Alison Simpson interviews Mark Mandato, Senior Manager of Key Growth Initiatives at CBC, and Chris Sewell, CEO & Founder of Net Zero Media. With advertising emissions approaching 4% of global emissions—rivalling the entire aviation industry—and 74% of Canadians factoring sustainability into their purchasing decisions, this partnership is pioneering breakthrough measurement technology. Discover how CBC and Net Zero Media are giving marketers the precise data they need to track their campaigns' carbon impact and make informed decisions that benefit both their bottom line and the planet. Presenter 0:01 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's Marketing Podcast where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson, Alison 0:25 The advertising industry accounts for as much as 2% of global carbon emissions from digital alone, with total advertising approaching 4% of all global emissions. That actually rivals the entire aviation industry. But here's what is particularly relevant for us as Canadian marketers. 74% of Canadians consider sustainability important when making purchasing decisions, and two thirds say they're willing to pay above average prices for products that have a lower carbon footprint. Plus 70% of TSX 60 companies have already committed to net zero emissions by 2050. Canadian marketers are sitting at a pivotal moment and navigating both unprecedented consumer expectations as well as evolving compliance requirements. This can create both opportunity and urgency for our profession. While consumer demand accelerates and regulatory frameworks tighten, we're seeing genuine innovation emerge right here at home. Today, we're exploring how Canadian innovation is setting new global benchmarks for environmental responsibility in advertising. CBC is pioneering sustainable media practices that are best in class, not just in Canada but globally. With the breakthrough measurement technologies that are giving marketers the precise, actionable data that they need to track their campaign's carbon impact. Today, I'm joined by Mark Mandato, who is Senior Manager of Growth Initiatives for the CBC. At the CBC, he is leading initiatives to position Canada's national broadcaster as a sustainability leader in Media Solutions. Mark's background spans Rogers Communications and Media Propulsion Laboratory, and he brings a unique commercial perspective to CBC's groundbreaking environmental programs. I'm also joined by Chris Sewell, the Head of Research and Co-founder of Net Zero Media. Chris is the technical architect behind carbon measurement methodologies that are revolutionizing how we understand advertising's environmental impact. Since developing his world leading methodology for quantifying carbon emissions and media activities back in 2007, Chris has worked with leading global brands, proving that sustainability and marketing effectiveness are not mutually exclusive. So welcome Chris and Mark. I am absolutely thrilled to have you both with me today, and I'm looking forward to diving into this conversation that matters more than ever for Canadian marketers. Mark 2:45 Thank you. Great to be here. Chris 2:47 Good to be here. Alison 3:14 So Mark,let's start with the fundamental question. Given everything else that's competing for marketers' attention right now, whether it's AI, tariffs, economic pressures, why should sustainability be a priority for marketing and media professionals? Mark 3:02 Yeah, it's a great, it's a great question to start off with. I think, I think it's gone from being a nice to have in a marketer's, you know, repertoire of things they have to worry about, down to an essential business imperative. Right? So it affects your brand's reputation, it can affect the consumer behaviour and even financial performance. So you had briefly mentioned that as of today, I think there's 301 companies that have signed on for the, you know, the net carbon zero for 2050, and it's appearing in annual reports as something that they are reporting against on a go forward basis. Mark 3:32 So at one point it was like, yes, it was a nice thing to do because it was a right thing to do for the planet, but now it has actual business impact that's related to the marketing department. So that's why sustainability has to come back onto the radar. It's not going away. It's not something that's going to get sort of better on its own. So having the ability to report on a granular level is becoming more and more important for marketers. Alison 3:54 That's great to hear. It's obviously mission critical from a planet perspective, but to see the business impact, to see the customer demand and increase the expectation, and now to have an ability to actually track it, is everything coming together, you know, the way it's meant to. Chris, you've been measuring advertising's carbon impact for over a decade. So for companies that are already tracking campaign metrics, why is carbon measurement important, and why does it matter for their bottom line? Chris 4:23 Actually, Alison, it's getting on for two decades, which I suppose shows both my commitment and my stubbornness in this area. Yeah, the importance of carbon measurement is often overlooked by the marketing team as they are busily focused on existing business objectives, which as we know today, are getting m ore and more challenging. The carbon emanating from the marketing budget is being measured and reported today. It's just being managed by other parts of the organization, so there's not necessarily a clear line of sight, and there's two reasons this has been done and how it affects the bottom line. As Mark was saying, 70% of TSX companies are actually have net zero targets, and therefore someone has to be measuring what's occurring today. Chris 5:10 So there's two reasons why this is important. Obviously, to meet those targets, but also how it affects the bottom line. Firstly, these companies who are talking about targets, are legally compelled to understand and report future business prospects. So this is a business, it's got nothing to do with climate at the moment, but, climate change is there as a reality. Therefore they have to take this into account when they're saying what's going to happen in the future. So this requires analysis of the external risks that are going to occur in future years, and the current emissions from the area of the business that's occurring today, which includes the marketing spend. Chris 5:50 So market emissions are being measured and reported using what's called, currently is a spend based method. This is where each dollar spent on marketing, regardless of what channel or the activity, is converted into a carbon equivalent based on the local market factor. So it's a simple thing. I spend $100, we convert it by that factor, that's how much carbon on the site, regardless of what's actually occurring. It's a flat number. Everything is actually counted the same. So while this covers any internal or external legal or voluntary portion requirements that these companies are using, it does nothing to help understand the carbon intensity areas of spend. As I said, every dollar is given the same carbon value, and that's just not true. Chris 6:37 Different channels, different activities, actually have different carbon intensity, and that method will not work in the future. So if it's not understood, it can't be managed. So the only way to reduce emissions is to reduce the budget, which I'm sure no marketer would want to hear that, if we're going to reduce emissions, because we have this target, therefore we will spend less on marketing. So it's not a great position to be in where we currently sit. So while this first reasoned about future risk, it is often the current cost with a direct link to the bottom line. Companies with net zero targets in a number of jurisdictions are neutralizing emissions. This might be an internal policy or maybe legislated requirement. If these marketing emissions are unable to be understood with no pathway to reduction, this cost will only increase with time, as budgets increase, and the cost of compensation or offsets is rising steadily all the time, because more and more companies are looking for, let's call it an easy way out. So marketers are increasing long term liability cost beyond the simple line items of the budget. This will be addressed again by business decisions outside the marketing department, and it's a greater understanding and action is taken. And what CBC is doing is that first major step for an organization to help marketers and the corporate clients understand in detail and they will start reducing into the future. Alison 8:07 Thanks, Chris, that's super helpful. So we have Canadian consumers who absolutely increasingly expect businesses and brands to be paying attention to sustainability and climate change. We have businesses that are stepping up as they should, to also protect climate change and the challenges that's being measured in that sounds like quite a simplistic way that ultimately could reduce marketers budget. So to have a more sophisticated way to measure it is in the best interest of marketers or budgets the business and ultimately, Canadian consumers as well. Mark, I know the CBC has a real commitment to responsible media and sustainability. I'd love you to walk us through your "Greening Our Story" strategy, and share how sustainable media initiative is fitting in the broader CBC commercial strategy. Mark 8:58 Yeah, absolutely, the sustainability portion and the "Greening Our Story" lives under a larger umbrella that we call Responsible Media. So CBC, as a Crown Corporation, has set a stake in the ground to lead from the front, as we say, in terms of responsible media. And that includes everything from the "Greening Our Story", which is the sustainability piece, to our DEI initiatives, to indigenous initiatives, all the different things that make CBC the gem that it is. But from a sustainability standpoint, there isn't currently a Canadian standard that speaks to the Scope 3 emissions, which are the ones sort of downstream effect of advertising. Mark 9:35 So because there's not a Canadian standard in place, as part of "Greening Our Story", we already were doing emission reporting and sustainability work on the production end of things. So when CBC produces a show or is involved in production, there's a set of guidelines that oversee carbon emissions for that. But after that fact, once the shows are produced and once advertising comes into the picture, there hasn't been that carbon calculator or that attention paid to what that carbon draw is. So that's really why we've decided to partner with Net Zero Media. We decided to approach it from a very academic standpoint. Mark 10:08 And again, the term that kept coming up over and over again in our steer codes was it was important to lead from the front. It was important to get out in front of this, to educate the marketers, to educate the industry about the effects of carbon in terms of what is produced from advertising. And get to that granular nature where we're actually looking at every step of the way, from when an ad is sent to CBC to go to air, through transmission, through to it appearing on a screen somewhere, at each stage, there is a carbon cost. So the idea of the carbon calculator was, we were going to work with Net Zero Media. They were going to do the heavy lifting and the math. We were going to be able to input clients' campaigns, and basically, with the click of a button, output what that carbon draw was, right? Mark 10:56 And it's a bit of an abstract thinking, like, if you think of carbon emissions for a large corporation, you think of things like converting gas powered vehicles to electric, or putting solar panels up on the transmission stations. Like there are things that people think about, and they're like, Yeah, that's going to help with sustainability. But you don't really think about a display ad, for example, being transmitted through a number of different computers, through to a trafficking computer, through to a transmission and then lighting up on someone's cell phone, right? Each of those stages along the way is a little bit of carbon, a little bit of carbon, a little bit of carbon. Mark 11:31 And when you add it all up, like you said, the advertising industry is the same as the aviation industry in terms of what its cost is, in terms of a total carbon draw. So Chris hit the nail on the head for marketers, you really can't make data-informed decisions about your business without having that level of granularity. It can't be a one-to-one spend base. It has to be based on activity. So the whole sustainability work that went into the carbon calculator was based on the idea that we need to have that level of granularity to provide our marketers with data and really that that's what it is. It's a data point which allows them to then make business decisions going forward. Mark 12:08 It wasn't something where we built this necessarily to be prescriptive, where we're going to advertisers and we're saying, Hey, we looked at your last five campaigns, you should really be buying more of this and less of this, or you should be using this channel or this channel. It's not for us to be prescriptive. It's really for us to educate them on what that carbon cost is, or that carbon draw is, by platform, by vertical, by campaign, and then we can have discussions, and they can have discussions internally about what they do with that data. Alison 12:38 It's such an important education. I've been on the agency side and also on the CMO side earlier in my career, and I had never had an appreciation for the potential positive and negative impact that our profession can have on greening the planet and on sustainability. So the fact that we actually rival the aviation industry is a mind blowing stat for me when I was doing some research. Mark 13:01 And Alison, that sort of abstract discussions we've had in the meetings we had with people who were working on the project with us, were trying to understand how, for example, a 60-second TV spot draws more carbon than a 30-second TV spot. And then you start to think about it, and you say, well, the screen is going to light up for twice as long, and when your TV is lit up for twice as long, it's drawing twice as much energy, and that energy has a cost associated to it, right? So it is an abstract thing to think that TV commercials are, you know, as damaging as a diesel engine or they're 1000 or 10,000 impressions on a web page is the same as planting a tree. Like there's literally carbon draws with everything you do when you start to look at it en masse, in terms of the billions of impressions that are served and the millions of TV ads, it really does add up. Alison 13:45 The good news is now we can actually track that and then put solutions in place. Mark 13:50 Exactly. Alison 13:51 So you're the first in Canada to do this. I know it's early days. Are you seeing it become a competitive differentiator with advertisers? Mark 13:59 Currently, it's not. Again, we're not at a stage where this has become something that we did, or we started to do, to make it a differentiator in our market, to say, hold up the flag and say, Look what CBC is doing. You should buy us instead of the other guys, because they're not doing it. That's not what the project was for. The project was to put a stake in the ground, to educate the industry, to, again, show that this is an important thing to look at and going forward, we want to share this with all of our other competitors and friends and CO vendors in the space and partners that we work with, and marketers to say this is something we should be looking at and providing this tool is the first step, because you really can't make changes without that data point. If you can't measure it, you can't have a downstream effect, right? Mark 14:43 So, so it's early stages. It's an education. We're in the sort of rollout education stage with this, with the hope that other people then call us, whether through their agency, through their marketing partners, other people in the industry, and say, Hey, I like what you're doing with that carbon IQ, the carbon calculator. Is that something we could look at? And we're more than happy and willing to share all of our learnings. It's not something we're keeping close to the vest as CBC as a business differentiator. It's a decision we made because it was the right thing to do. Alison 15:11 That's great. Thank you for being open to sharing the learning, not just with our audience, but with ultimately, the broader marketing profession as well. Mark 15:18 Yes, 100%. Alison 15:19 Now, Chris, I know CBC are the first Canadian broadcaster to adopt your carbon calculator. So can you share how your carbon IQ platform really complements CBC production-focused measurements when it comes to advertising spend and media planning? Chris 15:32 Yeah, I suppose the first thing, again, Mark's explained that very well, and it is a complicated thing to get your head around, that CBC have been doing for a number of years, great stuff on looking at the emissions from the production of the programs and also the whole corporate emissions. And that reporting has been ongoing, and it's excellent, but this this big part of the business that was actually selling space for corporates to buy that real estate and actually create those emissions. Now, were they CBC's responsibility? I would argue, not necessarily, that there would be no ads if no one bought them. Chris 16:13 Therefore it's the advertisers responsibility, but they had no mechanism for actually giving that in a compliant manner, hence the engagement with us to actually build the carbon IQ so that they can do two things. One would be to understand where the emissions are going on all these 1000s of ad products that CBC have through TV and their digital platforms so they could understand it themselves. So there was some knowledge to actually start to improve. Is there anything we can do to make this a greener platform? And the second thing was, these companies who are buying these advertising space or this real estate that's actually sitting there, what are the emissions that they're responsible? What are their scope 3 emissions that actually CBC are generating on their behalf. How can we give those give that in a really simple manner? Chris 17:10 Can we report that and give that across so they can use it in their reporting and improve the way they engage with CBC being the first, but with all companies. So that's much better than using the method they were actually using before. So we actually come on board, as Mark said, as an expert view on where emissions are occurring across order advertising products in all their channels. Therefore, CBC are the first broadcaster, not only really in Canada, but globally, some companies are saying they've done this, but they're not doing it with this rigour and transparency and, importantly, independence. Chris 17:46 We are we are completely independent of the process. We don't buy advertising. We just...
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EP55 - From Wall Street To Social Media Pioneer with Joshua Bloom
11/04/2025
EP55 - From Wall Street To Social Media Pioneer with Joshua Bloom
What if 84% of small businesses needed your platform to survive? Joshua Bloom, GM, Head of US Enterprise Sales and Canada at TikTok, has been working in social media expansion in Canada for over 26 years. His journey led him to become the first employee at MySpace, Facebook, and TikTok Canada. Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores Joshua's journey from Wall Street to social media pioneer, why some platforms thrive while others fail, and how he's leading through unprecedented regulatory uncertainty. Presenter 0:01 Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. Alison 0:20 In today's episode, we're exploring the fascinating intersection of digital innovation, economic impact and entrepreneurial resilience with someone who has an absolutely extraordinary track record of being first. So I'm super excited to welcome Joshua Bloom. He has served as the GM of global business solutions for TikTok Canada, and remarkably, has also been the first employee of not one but three major social platforms in Canada, going as far back as MySpace, then Facebook and TikTok. Josh's exceptional leadership was just recognized with a promotion and North American role. So he is now the GM Head of U.S. Enterprise Sales, as well as maintaining Canada at TikTok. Josh's career journey is anything but traditional. From Wall Street to becoming a key architect of social media expansion in Canada over the past 26 years. Since joining on as an instrumental team member in starting TikTok Canada in 2019, he's witnessed the platform grow from a startup operation to an economic powerhouse. Through the combined total of its operations and SMB activities on the platform, TikTok has contributed 2.3 billion to Canada's GDP in 2024 alone. They also support over 613,000 small businesses, 84% of which now consider the platform essential to their survival. This conversation comes at an absolutely critical juncture. With economic uncertainty, we are all managing through dramatic change. With recent regulatory challenges forcing TikTok Canada to pause major cultural investments and face an uncertain future, t hat reality is even more true for Josh and his experience can provide super valuable learning for all of us. So whether you're curious about building social platforms from the ground up, the economic impact of TikTok on Canadian businesses, or how leaders navigate extreme uncertainty, today's conversation promises insights that you won't find anywhere else. So welcome Josh and congratulations on your new role. Joshua 2:21 Thank you so much, Alison, it's great to talk with you again. Alison 2:24 Now, Josh, you have this incredibly unique distinction of being employee number one for three major social platforms in Canada. That's a 26 year front row seat to the evolution of social media here, and I'd love you to take us back to the transition from Wall Street to digital, including what was the pivotal moment that convinced you to pursue a career in marketing? Joshua 2:45 It's funny, I graduated university in 1995, not to age myself, but I graduated a finance degree, and I've always had this vision of working on Wall Street. And so about the end of 1998, after having worked in finance about three years. My cousin Lee Nadler, called a digital pioneer, he was a number 17 employee at DoubleClick. And DoubleClick was first ad serving technology. And DoubleClick also created the very first ad network. So back in the mid to late 90s, they used to represent all the big websites, including Alta Vista, if you remember that search engine before, before Google, sort of like had its, you know, its reign. So he introduced me to the company, and used to tell me stories about how digital was going to be the big thing in advertising. I was not a fan of computers. Still to this day, I'm not great at them, but he mentioned that they were opening up this media team and that I should come and check it out. He finally convinced me, and it was sort of a match made in heaven. And, you know, ended up spending three fantastic years at DoubleClick to which, one, I really learned internet and the potential of the internet, and two, I was really able to understand what working in a really positive culture looked like. DoubleClick, I think was one of the early great digital cultures, and I think that helped me to sort of create sort of what I wanted to see when I led teams later on down the road. Alison 4:14 Well, a huge thank you on behalf of Canadian marketers for your cousin giving you that push, because clearly we have benefited. And I also like the cultural learning. So being an early adopter to digital and social media is great, but the learning you took on the importance of a culture, regardless of what sector or industry you're in, the culture can be such a competitive advantage, and that's clearly something that you've lived and brought to life in your different roles in Canada, Joshua 4:38 Absolutely, it was such an empowering and engaging culture. The fantastic leaders that really were people leaders, and it gave everyone an opportunity to to be successful and to be the best versions of themselves. And it was funny because back in that, in that period of time, we were selling digital against all other forms of media. We would literally have packets of 50 to 100 pieces of paper stacked on top of each other with leads that we would call one at a time, and basically try to sell digital media against the other traditional media formats that they were using. It was a really wild time. Alison 5:18 Now, you were brave to take a leap early in your careers, but you've also built a number of platforms from scratch in the Canadian market. So walk us through what it's like and the approach that you took for building something from scratch. Joshua 5:31 It's really interesting. So, you know, that started with, you know, my being the first employee in Canada for MySpace. What caught my eye is that, you know, MySpace was a platform that not only was I using, but I was such a fan of music, and I used the platform basically to connect with bands that I adored. And came to a realization very quickly that it really was an amazing platform to discover new music. And when I think about the steps that I took myself in terms of that first platform that I worked with, and then to Facebook, and then to TikTok, it really started with sort of building a vision and then inspiring a narrative that really turned heads. Joshua 6:11 So when you think about MySpace like it was revolutionary, and you know, combined massive scale with unprecedented self expression, allowing brands like tap into like these rich audience data and target consumers through the culture that they were actively creating. It gave your advertisers an opportunity to like tap, you know, right into that, you know, sort of evolving culture that was, that was being created on the internet. You know, then Facebook was sort of captivating advertisers, you know, for uniting like what was real identity with social connectivity and then enabling very precise targeting at scale. You know, Facebook bought Instagram, and you know that totally transformed advertising by merging, like the visual storytelling with aspirational lifestyle. And yeah, that gave brands a seamless way to inspire and influence and connect. Joshua 6:59 And now you fast forward to today with TikTok, which has social components to it, but it's really, you know, entertainment-based. It's really just a playground for, like, infinite discovery and driving culture and allowing brands not to just participate, but to actually help to shape culture. And if you do it right, you know, brands have an opportunity to drive, not only the most important business KPIs, but really disrupt the way that we are perceiving marketing today. Second to that, I would probably just say that, like hiring the right folks early, because, like, they're going to set the tone and who you are as an organization in the market, and you need to make sure that the conversations that they're having within the market are ones that are going to sort of ease that barrier entry for testing, so that when that first dollar is spent, it's done in a way that is meaningful, they're learning something, and they're able to then move up from sort of that experiences. Joshua 7:53 A lot of times, I think you have, you have these sort of call it, shiny objects in markets, and marketers always have testing dollars, but if you don't really get anything out of that test, they flop. And that's why you really only see, like, a handful of platforms that are really are getting, you know, significant dollars and having, like, meaningful partnerships with brands today. Alison 8:16 It's great advice, and with the three platforms that you've built in Canada, you've been on the ground floor, but you've also seen some that have gone into phenomenal success and some that failed. So MySpace certainly dominated early but ultimately lost market share. Facebook's become a global giant, and Tiktok has been exploding in recent years. So it's great learning and from a strategic perspective, what were the key differentiators between the platforms succeeding longer term, versus those that didn't. Joshua 8:43 I think MySpace had a really hard time defining itself. If you if you put MySpace and Facebook next to each other, we'll see that MySpace is very much like a, was very much like a social portal, very similar to like a Yahoo, where it was very content-based. You had MySpace Music and MySpace Sports and MySpace News, and there really wasn't much of a focal point, even though music really was its centre. MySpace lost its way, and a lot of that could have also done with the fact that, you know, Rupert Murdoch and News Corp bought, bought the company, and really made it just like a, yeah, a money-making machine, where you then look at Facebook. Joshua 9:23 And when I joined Facebook, it was a fraction of the size of MySpace. People were telling me it was career suicide at that time. But you could see the difference in the platforms, where, in that Facebook was more of a social utility. It was more, much more similar to Google, you know, where, basically the the news feed that was created really was the bread and butter of Facebook became sort of this, this news source, this personalized newspaper for individuals, where that content was the things that were happening with all the people and entities that they care, they care most about. And Facebook stuck to that you n ever saw Facebook try to build content and be competitive with MySpace. They just got better and better and better at creating a more impactful and a more empowering social utility. Alison 10:11 Now I want to pivot to the small business community in Canada. Clearly, being a small business in Canada has been really hard work for the last five years. We've had that pandemic, now we have tariffs, we've had a challenging economy, and small businesses are in many ways, are the cornerstone of Canada's economy. Now I know that Nordicity recently completed an economic impact study that Tiktok Canada commissioned that was really illuminating, and before we dive into the specific numbers, I really think it's important to contextualize these findings within the broader reality that's facing Canadian SMEs. Alison 10:50 So we've seen the business closure rate increase by almost 5% in 2024, 65% of Canadian SMEs are still managing pandemic related debt to average over $100,000 and now they're dealing with the tariff uncertainty and what experts are calling the silver tsunami, where nearly two thirds of Canadian businesses lack succession planning as their baby boomer owners are nearing retirement. So against this backdrop, how do you interpret TikTok's role as an economic lifeline? Joshua 11:21 The finding that you mentioned before about about 84% of small businesses that consider TikTok essential to their survival is such a profound statement, but also something that has become very real to us because, you know, it's a it's both a testament to the platform's transformative power and it's almost like a clarion call to our responsibility now as a tech company. In this level of dependency, underscores how deeply integrated Tiktok has become in this entrepreneurial ecosystem, especially for small businesses that often lack these extensive resources of large corporations and have also had to deal with things like the pandemic, which I think really shocked like, you know, the entire ecosystem. Joshua 12:03 This dependency really indicates that, like, that we're not just a platform for entertainment, but we're a vital lifeline for innovation, creativity, economic resilience. I guess it creates this sort of dual responsibility that we have. So I think there's like, there's, there's empowerment support, where I think we just, we have to continue to build and enhance our tools, you know, with features that are going to help small businesses thrive and providing educational resources, access to analytics, promotional opportunities that cater to specifically to their needs. And I think by offering, you know, guidance on best practices, we can really help these businesses to leverage, you know, this unique storytelling capability that we have to help them to, you know, really build authentic connections with their audiences. Joshua 12:05 I think the second one would be community, and this, this notion of inclusivity, we really do have a responsibility to to foster supportive community where diverse voices can be heard and supported, and this means actively working towards reducing barriers to entry, probably offering financial resources or partnerships that can aid in the visibility of these underrepresented businesses and communities, and promoting initiatives that really celebrate cultural diversity. You see that in a lot of the work it is you know, that we've done, and some of the ones that we've had to unfortunately shut down in the near term, that hopefully we'll be able to bring back up once we can overcome this, this shutdown hurdle. Joshua 13:24 But really, you know, it's, it's, it's our role to, like, not just like, facilitate growth, but it's got to be something that's sustainable long term, you know, for these, these small businesses. I think it's important that we, you know, we're listening to their needs. You know, we're adapting. We're creating an environment where, where they can, they can thrive. We're, really, are, you know, sort of these, these partners to their journey, and hopefully, you know, a platform that creates economic viability for these businesses. And really, what we're seeing is an ever-evolving, you know, digital world. Alison 13:53 I know you and your team have done a lot of different initiatives. Is there one that you're particularly proud of, or that the results really surprised you? Joshua 13:53 So yes, one of the ones that I find most interesting is a company called Edison motors out in BC. Chase Barber, who is the CEO of the company, he's a, he's a trucker, a logger, and he, through TikTok, built basically a hybrid diesel engine, electric and diesel engine. This is something that's never been done before, and something you know that he built from scratch and patented, but used TikTok and its community as a sounding board, and then as he understood the capabilities of this engine and what it could provide, terms of power and efficiencies, you know, for for trucks, he began to basically build his first truck, and got all of his suppliers, also through his relationships in the TikTok community. Joshua 14:49 You fast forward to today, that company has now been valued at over $200 million, and the use of that hybrid engine, there, there are so many different cases. And this is something that's being built out of Canada. So not only am I proud in sort of that patriotic piece of like something that's completely new, never been done before, and has so many different applications, but to see the platform play such an integral role in helping not only the development of the product itself, but actually to build the infrastructure for for the business, and hopefully help them to continue to thrive. Alison 15:24 That's an amazing story. Way to go Chase, too. And to see how the community played a mission critical role in the business that he's now built. I can't wait to see where Edison goes next. Now let's turn to TikTok's economic impact study. It shows some remarkable numbers that you and I have both highlighted. One that jumps out to me is 613,000 small Canadian businesses using the platform. And I'd love to hear what from this economic impact study really surprised you about the findings? Joshua 15:54 Well, I mean, we keep talking about this, the fact that 613,000 small businesses were using the platform last year. You know, when I started at the company six years ago, we were maybe a couple of million individuals using the platform in Canada, and to see how far it's come in that short window of time, it really does blow my mind that not only are they on our platform, but to say that we are essential to their survival, is to say it's a really bold statement. Joshua 16:23 This isn't, hey, we're a great part of their marketing mix, or hey, like, we're an engaging platform, or drive, you know, some of their their needed business KPIs, but that, like, if we didn't exist, they wouldn't be around. Just tells a lot about how important it is to not only have this platform, but for us to be here. And, you know, to see how the business has grown from from zero now to, you know, $1.4 billion that you know, the TikTok office has created, paying all of our taxes, you know, and being good corporate citizens, and the community work, and the millions of dollars of investment that we've brought back into the community, and all these things, you know, are, some of them surprising, but some of them I'm incredibly proud of, and really is the reason why I'm so passionate about keeping this story going, Alison 17:14 That really is an incredibly high dependency rate and creates quite a bit of responsibility for the platform as well. So building on that, what responsibility does it create for TikTok as a platform, when these businesses are so reliant on you for their economic visibility and viability as well as their long term success? Joshua 17:32 Yeah, no. I mean, as I mentioned earlier, there's that sort of empowerment and support piece, you know, where there's the tools and the features and analytics that we need to continuously provide to show that the efforts that they're making, whether they are in an organic nature or in a paid nature, that they truly understand the power of the platform and where they can scale and be able to build business. Joshua 17:56 And then the second piece is really making sure that we are, we're supporting them, is that community and inclusivity fashion, that they really are becoming a part of something bigger than themselves, that we drive visibility around those underrepresented businesses, that those you know, culturally diverse businesses are being seen. We've done a number of different projects, you know, where we've done in real life, you know,...
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EP54 - You.Scaled AI Accelerator Partnership with Karla Congson
10/29/2025
EP54 - You.Scaled AI Accelerator Partnership with Karla Congson
What's your organization doing to help Canadian businesses grow? In a country where 1.2 million small businesses are struggling to remain competitive, and only 12% are using AI technology, the You.Scaled partnership has created a solution. Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews Karla Congson, CEO and Founder of Agentiiv, to explore how this AI accelerator program evolved into a comprehensive partnership between CMA, Agentiiv, Staples, RBC Ownr, and CCNDR - awarding 500 grants to help SMEs and nonprofits harness AI to compete globally. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:15 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:16 - 00:00:51:09 Alison In today's episode, we explore an exciting new program that the CMA is very proud to be a part of. The program provides much needed support to Canadian Small businesses and not-for-profits. The new you.scaled program, which just launched as part of SME Month in Canada, is an ambitious $5 million AI accelerator program that demonstrates what's possible when organizations unite around a shared vision of empowering our small businesses and not-for-profit communities. 00:00:51:11 - 00:01:17:14 Alison I'm very excited to welcome Karla Congson, the founder and CEO of agentiiv and the visionary who brought the initial idea of you.scaled to the CMA. What makes this story truly remarkable isn't just a really innovative idea. It's also how that idea has been transformed into a national program for the collective strength of strategic partnerships. The program you'll hear about today wouldn't exist without the unique contributions each partner brings to the table. 00:01:17:16 - 00:01:43:12 Alison The CMA is proud to provide the educational foundation through our generative AI training courses, along with significant AI thought leadership and resources, and membership benefits that will help businesses implement these tools effectively. Ownr brings essential business setup and legal expertise. Staples is contributing their extensive reach and business services network and CCNDR are ensuring that we're addressing the nonprofit sector with the same commitment we bring to SMEs. 00:01:43:14 - 00:02:15:03 Alison This partnership matters because the challenge we're addressing is massive. Despite a transformative potential, only 12.2% of Canadian businesses are currently using AI technology, while 73% of SMEs haven't even considered implementing it. Meanwhile, our 1.2 million small businesses, which employ almost 62% of Canada's private workforce and contribute 38% of our private sector GDP, are facing unprecedented pressures to modernize, just to remain competitive. 00:02:15:05 - 00:02:50:04 Alison Karla brings over two decades of experience as a marketing executive and business leader before pivoting into entrepreneurship and hands on AI development. Today's conversation is about much needed support for Canadian SMEs and NFPs. It's also about collective impact and how strategic partnerships can amplify individual innovation to create solutions that no single organization could deliver alone. So whether you're a Canadian small business or not-for-profit looking for ways to leverage AI so you can become even more competitive and deliver business results, or curious about how collaborative programs can help drive economic development, 00:02:50:06 - 00:03:00:13 Alison today's conversation will offer insights into partnership driven innovation that can help reshape how we think about supporting Canadian businesses. Welcome, Karla. It's wonderful to have you here today. 00:03:00:15 - 00:03:03:12 Karla Thanks so much, Alison. It's a privilege to be here. 00:03:03:14 - 00:03:23:04 Alison Now, I want to start with the idea and why it's needed so much. So we know that SMEs are the cornerstone of Canada's economy, and there's no doubt that they've had quite a challenging number of years, everything from the pandemic, challenging economic times and now political uncertainty and tariffs. So to say that they're in need of support is an understatement. 00:03:23:06 - 00:03:34:05 Alison And I know that's a passion for both of us in our organizations. So with that as the backdrop, I'd love you to share more about our newly launched Youth Scale program and how it benefits SMEs. 00:03:34:07 - 00:03:55:09 Karla You're absolutely right, Alison, about SMEs facing unprecedented challenges. I've watched friends and colleagues and these incredible businesses, the backbone of our economy, get hammered by everything from supply chain disruptions to labour shortages. And now so many people come to me and they're telling me that they're watching AI transform their bigger competitors, while they're feeling like it's out of reach. 00:03:55:11 - 00:04:12:20 Karla And the other part of this too, which I can fully relate to as a small business ourselves, is that a small business owner's most valuable commodity is time. We never have enough of it. And not enough time to get on top of AI trends, choose the right tools, invest in training. And that's where you.scaled and its partners come in. 00:04:12:22 - 00:04:41:09 Karla What makes you.scaled unique is the comprehensiveness of the program. Most AI initiatives focus on single solutions, but we envision addressing the entire business ecosystem that small companies need in order to scale. Agentiiv was the catalyst that got the program going, and it all began with an idea and a desire to really make a difference. We're giving away $4 million of market value of our own services to provide an enterprise grade AI platform with 100 specialized agents. 00:04:41:11 - 00:05:16:15 Karla And the CMA plays such a critical role in this by providing AI training, marketing education, distribution, robust thought leadership, and membership benefits. RBC Ownr handles all the business set up, the legal support and financial services. Staples provides operational backbone with business services, and CCNDR ensures nonprofit participants get specialized support. So when a small manufacturer in Saskatoon can suddenly compete with enterprise level efficiency, or a nonprofit in Nova Scotia can augment their donor communications to focus on mission critical work, 00:05:16:20 - 00:05:22:18 Karla W e're collectively building a Canada where small businesses can compete on a world stage. 00:05:22:20 - 00:05:41:22 Alison Building on that, when you first envisioned the you.scaled program at agentiiv, you realized that it could become something much bigger through partnership. So I'd love you to walk us through that evolution from when you first conceived the idea, to what made you realize that you needed partnerships to really make it scale to the degree that you hoped it would. 00:05:42:00 - 00:06:10:12 Karla Well the evolution of you.scaled really started with a fundamental question. Who else is as passionate about helping Canadian small businesses succeed as we are at agentiiv, being a Canadian small business ourselves? And I knew that for this to work, I needed partners who shared that core mission. And our first reach out was to the CMA. The Canadian Marketing Association was and is the perfect first partner because they have trust and educational credibility with the business community. 00:06:10:14 - 00:06:40:12 Karla When I approached the CMA, they immediately understood that AI literacy was becoming as fundamental as digital literacy was a decade ago, and they had already prepared several programs to that end. Staples brought something crucial - the physical business services and operational support that growing companies need. Their contribution evolved the program by supporting their broader operations through print services for marketing campaigns, discounts and office supplies for expansion, business services for operational growth. 00:06:40:18 - 00:07:06:09 Karla Staples filled the practical gaps and execution. RBC Ownr provided essential services that help businesses get started. They provide the incorporation or business set up done online, in minutes, at a fraction of the cost and complexity of going to a traditional firm. And CCNDR, the Canadian Council for Nonprofit Directors, which is a division of Imagine Canada, brought the nonprofit perspective. 00:07:06:15 - 00:07:29:05 Karla This partnership ensured we weren't just creating a program for small businesses. We're building something that strengthens entire communities. What's beautiful about how each partner's contribution made the others more effective was that the program evolved from just, you know, free AI access, if it had just been us, to comprehensive business transformation, something that none of us individually could have created alone. 00:07:29:05 - 00:07:38:13 Karla But together we built something that genuinely addresses the full spectrum of what Canadian SMEs and nonprofits need to thrive in an AI-driven economy. 00:07:38:15 - 00:07:58:01 Alison So it's clear that there are a robust array of benefits for the SMEs and the not-for-profits that are successful in obtaining the grants. It's also clear that this is a pretty complex partnership with quite different types of organizations. So what was the most challenging aspect of aligning such diverse organizational cultures around a single program and vision? 00:07:58:03 - 00:08:34:10 Karla Well, it's funny, orchestrating these different organizational partners has actually been easier than you might think. And here's why. We started with a group of organizations that shared a fundamental, common mission, putting their resources to work to help Canadian small businesses succeed. Each partner immediately understood their individual impact could be exponentially greater through collaboration. The most challenging aspect, and honestly, the only real challenge, was navigating the typical processes of large organizations. Legal approvals, partnership agreements, coordination mechanisms, and aligning just different operational timelines. 00:08:34:12 - 00:08:58:00 Karla But that effort has been absolutely worth it based on what we can achieve together. What we've created is something none of us could have built alone. A comprehensive support ecosystem where each partner's strengths amplified the others. When organizations generally share the same mission of strengthening Canadian small businesses, partnership architecture becomes about maximizing collective impact, and we were all able to move together. 00:08:58:02 - 00:09:20:06 Alison So you've shared a bit about the CMA contribution and so have I. I'd like to talk a little bit more about it. So agentiiv is providing the AI platform, which is absolutely the cornerstone of the you.scaled program. And then CMA is bringing educational foundation that helps make implementation successful, whether it's our generative AI training courses, our robust AI resources, or the thought leadership. 00:09:20:08 - 00:09:41:18 Alison They're all tools that can help businesses and not-for-profits, along with the distribution and membership benefits that we're providing, will really help the successful candidates be able to implement and leverage all of the tools successfully. So how does the partnership address what you identified as that 86% failure rate in meaningful AI implementation? 00:09:41:20 - 00:10:09:18 Karla Marketing is a critical component of the small business value chain, and that's why the CMA became such an essential partner for making this a successful program. For small businesses, marketing isn't just one department, it's often the primary growth engine and the foundation of their customer relationships. If they can't effectively communicate their value proposition, reach their target audience, or maintain brand consistency, no amount of AI capability will drive meaningful business results. 00:10:09:20 - 00:10:44:10 Karla And that's part of that, you know, high failure rate that you talked about, is people look at the tool and not the actual objective. CMA brings something irreplaceable to this partnership ecosystem, proven marketing education methodology and decades of experience helping Canadian businesses think strategically about customer engagement. Their AI literacy training isn't just about using the tools, it's about applying strategic marketing thinking to AI implementation, ensuring that these small businesses understand how to integrate AI into their broader marketing and communication strategies. 00:10:44:12 - 00:11:11:16 Karla When the CMA joined the partnership, it validated our comprehensive approach. The CMA's role as the marketing and strategic education cornerstone to the program makes the entire ecosystem more powerful and more likely to drive lasting transformation. This partnership directly addresses that 86% AI implementation failure rate that you mentioned by tackling the root cause, the gap between having access to AI and actually using it effectively. 00:11:11:17 - 00:11:20:21 Karla CMA'Ss generative AI courses, thought leadership, and ongoing support create that critical foundation that makes the technology adoption sustainable. 00:11:20:23 - 00:11:50:08 Alison So we no doubt have many listeners who might be small businesses themselves or not-for-profits. Or if they're not, they probably know some small businesses and not-for-profits that could absolutely benefit from the you.scaled program. Collectively, we are planning to award 350 grants to SMEs and 150 to nonprofits across Canada, and they will have amazing benefits that are provided by the you.scaled program, which is clearly quite an enormous opportunity for those businesses and not-for-profits. 00:11:50:10 - 00:11:57:11 Alison So I'd love you to share how interested parties can apply for the program and what's required for them to be successful. 00:11:57:13 - 00:12:25:23 Karla Absolutely. Applications are now open through you.scaled.com, and we're looking for organizations that demonstrate both need and readiness. We want businesses and nonprofits that are motivated to embrace change, have some basic digital literacy, and can commit to the learning process. The key requirement for success isn't technical sophistication. You don't need to be using AI right now. It's organizational openness and a clear vision for your goals for growth. 00:12:26:01 - 00:12:49:22 Karla We're looking for leaders who see AI as an opportunity to amplify what they already do best, not as a magic solution that requires no effort. Successful recipients typically have someone on their team that can serve as an AI champion or key point of contact. Not necessarily technical, but just curious and willing to experiment with this technology. We're also prioritizing applications that show potential for community impact. 00:12:50:00 - 00:13:01:20 Karla A rural nonprofit that could serve more families, a manufacturing company that could create jobs. Those multiplier effects are what makes this program transformational rather than just charitable. 00:13:01:22 - 00:13:21:11 Alison So we will include the link to the website in the podcast notes to make it easy for grant access. Now, the you.scaled program emphasizes authentic Canadian values, community support, collective progress, and regional representation are all key parts of this. So I'd love you to share with our listeners why this is an important part of the program. 00:13:21:12 - 00:13:53:06 Karla Well, Canadian values aren't just marketing language for us. They're operational principles around how we've architected the program and how we do the screening. We designed you.scaled to embody what Canada does best - collective problem solving, regional equity and building everyone up rather than leaving anyone behind. But there's also an urgent economic imperative here. ICTC research shows that AI adoption could boost Canada's productivity by 1.5% annually over the next decade. 00:13:53:08 - 00:14:23:04 Karla That represents up to $200 billion in economic opportunity for Canada. As Minister Evan Solomon emphasizes, AI represents Canada's economic destiny. The you.scaled program ensures that SMEs and nonprofits, which employ over 65% of Canadians, are participating in this productivity transformation, not watching it from the sidelines. Our selection process actively ensures meaningful regional representation across all provinces and territories. 00:14:23:09 - 00:14:50:07 Karla We're also ensuring that women-led, indigenous-led businesses and minority-owned businesses are proportionally represented because diverse leadership creates more resilient and innovative business solutions. Ultimately, you.scaled isn't just about individual business success, it's about ensuring Canada's economic transformation and ensuring that includes everyone, strengthening our national productivity while staying true to our values of equity and community support. 00:14:50:09 - 00:14:59:05 Karla When SMEs across Canada can compete globally using AI capabilities, we're not just helping individual businesses, we're securing Canada's economic future. 00:14:59:07 - 00:15:15:14 Alison So looking ahead, the you.scaled program could serve as a powerful model for how Canadian organizations collaborate to help address national challenges. So what lessons about partnership development and management do you think other leaders could apply in their own collaborative initiatives? 00:15:15:16 - 00:15:42:22 Karla The key lesson from you.scaled is that transformational partnerships require what I call complementary incompleteness. Each partner needs to bring something essential that the others can't replicate, but no single partner can solve the full problem alone. What makes partnerships create real impact versus just share costs is having a shared vision that's bigger than any individual organizational goal. We didn't start with how can we promote our brands together? 00:15:43:00 - 00:16:11:17 Karla We collectively started with, how can we solve a national economic challenge that no single organization can address? The difference maker is also having clear accountability for collective outcomes, not just individual contributions. We measure success by SME transformation rates, not by how many training courses, you know, the CMA delivered or how many businesses onboarded. When everyone's success is tied to the same outcome, you get real collaboration instead of coordinated self-promotion. 00:16:11:19 - 00:16:24:06 Alison I absolutely love your phrase complementary incompleteness. So I want to drill down on it a little bit more. What makes the difference between partnerships that create real impact versus those that are more around cost sharing? 00:16:24:08 - 00:16:43:12 Karla Again, it comes back to that shared mission and being something bigger than what each individual group can. When you share a common purpose, that's where motion meets meaning and everybody is motivated to put in 110% into that partnership. 00:16:43:14 - 00:17:07:09 Alison I couldn't agree more. And this has been a really great example of that. So Karla, before we wrap, I would love to switch gears and ask the question that I end each of my episodes with. You have an absolutely amazing career that spans agency leadership, big brands, and now founder and entrepreneurial roles. So I know our listeners would love to hear the one piece of career advice that you would share with people who aspire to follow in your footsteps. 00:17:07:11 - 00:17:38:14 Karla Wow. That's that's a big question. So the best career advice I can give is this. Your biggest competitive advantage today isn't what you know. It's how quickly you can learn what you don't know. Things are changing so quickly with AI, expertise is becoming commodified. And according to the CEO of Google DeepMind,...
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EP53 - The 2025 Humankind Study With Tahir Ahmad And Sarah Carpentier
10/21/2025
EP53 - The 2025 Humankind Study With Tahir Ahmad And Sarah Carpentier
Does working hard still help achieve your dreams? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, interviews two strategists from Leo Burnett Toronto: Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer, and Sarah Carpentier, PhD, Senior Strategist. Their focus is the 2025 HumanKind Study, revealing how Canadians feel about work and life. When 83% of people don't believe hard work will pay off, the connection between effort and reward has changed - and brands should understand why. 7085B3-CMAPodcast - Ep. 53 - Tahir Ahmad and Sarah Carpentier === [00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. [00:00:27] Alison: If you're a marketer wondering how to connect with people who are stressed, uncertain, and frankly just trying to get through the day, well you are definitely not alone. Today, we're diving into Leo Toronto's HumanKind Study with Tahir Ahmad and Dr. Sarah Carpentier. Tahir serves as Chief Strategy Officer at Leo Toronto. [00:00:45] Alison: He's also the original vision behind their highly insightful HumanKind study. It's research that delves into how Canadians are feeling and key trends, including what's keeping consumers up at night. And there are quite a few things keeping us up at night right now. Sarah made the leap from PhD student and management consulting to agency behavioural scientist a little over two years ago, bringing her doctorate in psychology to Leo Toronto, where she's a senior strategist and a principal force behind the HumanKind study. [00:01:12] Alison: Now in its fourth year, the HumanKind study dives deep into the emotional undercurrent, opportunities and genuine challenges that are facing Canadians today. A few of the themes that we are gonna cover off include Social Stage Fright, Hustle to Nowhere, and Alexa, what is critical thinking. This year, the study also focused on younger Canadians, age 16 to 45, and took a closer look at newcomers to help uncover the emotional undercurrents that are shaping the next generation. [00:01:40] Alison: It's also the second year that the study expanded beyond Canada to the U.S. to help us really understand how Canadians compare to and differ from Americans. Given the uncertainty with tariffs and the renewed Canadian patriotism, this view is both very timely and sure to provide some fascinating insights to make today's discussion both informative and actionable. [00:01:58] Alison: Sarah and Tahir will also share what brands can do to help Canadians address their concerns and needs. Welcome Sarah and Tahir. It's an absolute pleasure to have you here today. Sarah: Thank you. [00:02:07] Tahir: Thanks Alison. It's great to be back. I know we did this last year, so super excited to share the fourth edition. [00:02:15] Alison: I'm looking forward to it too. Now, Sarah, since you're new this year and you have an unconventional path to our profession, uh, before we dive into the study, I would really love to hear what attracted you from being a PhD to the wonderful world of marketing and agency life, and also share a bit about what the transition's been like. [00:02:30] Sarah: Oh, that's a fun question. Okay, so yeah, I think my day to days have changed a little bit. I definitely know a lot more cross industry jargon or I'm really, really collecting it as I go through life. But ultimately everything I've always done at school or at any point in my career is still always ultimately about understanding why people think, feel, and act the way they do, and then how I can use that knowledge to help, you know, improve lives. [00:03:00] Sarah: So it really all ladders up to the same thing and it, we really understand how it all goes together. I left the PhD world, it was wonderful. But as much as I love research on its own, I really felt quite disconnected from doing something with what was being learned. So I wanted to kind of go out in the world a little bit and help share that knowledge with the people who can benefit from it. [00:03:21] Sarah: And I think on face value, it can seem a bit out of place for a scientist to want to seek out working at a creative agency. But I know that if you listen to the data and if you listen to the science, then it tells us that human creativity is a really essential ingredient in really connecting people to ideas and creating new ideas that actually move people. [00:03:45] Sarah: Right. And I really wanted to be a part of that. And when I heard about the HumanKind study and I met Tahir, and I met Ryan Roberts, our SVP of Strategy as well. I loved the way that they thought. I was like, they think like me. They get it. This isn't just something they say, this is actually something they really, really care about and live and breathe. [00:04:02] Sarah: And so I was really excited to join the team. [00:04:04] Alison: It's absolutely great to have you in our profession. I'm looking forward to hearing more about the HumanKind study today. So Tahir, let's start by having you share a little bit about the study and how it's evolved over the four years. [00:04:14] Tahir: It's pretty amazing to be here four years in, I guess, now already starting to plan the fifth year. [00:04:19] Tahir: So the fifth edition is in the works, which is great. And I, I know that we did this last year and we've appeared, I think on the CMA conference a couple years in a row. So maybe there are some people familiar with the study, but, just to very quickly go, you know, to its, its origin. It really fell out of this need to have more Canadian research at hand and, and frankly, our philosophy at Leo is all around humankind and the intimate and deep understanding of human beings and what they need and want and what they dream about, fear and everything that they care about in terms of improving the quality of their life. [00:04:56] Tahir: And, you know, we just felt as though we never really had this, you know, data that we could go to, uh, and mine that really reflects the mindset of the country. You know, we do research bespoke for clients or particular briefs, and so to truly say that we understand Canadians and human beings better than anyone else, you know, we wanted to create something more proprietary that we could draw from each and every day. [00:05:24] Tahir: And so that was a bit of a fumbly way of saying how we got to the first edition. And it was very much a, off the side of the desks, you know, we just tried to pull together, uh, as much data as we could. And you can imagine that it's kind of like boiling the ocean. And so over time we've just gotten better and smarter and more efficient at distilling the findings into something that really gets at, uh, perhaps a sharper point of view and what Canadians are thinking and feeling and more [00:05:50] Tahir: importantly, the way that brands can help solve for those problems and those needs in their lives. And so for this fourth edition, we did change things up a little bit, as you mentioned, off the top. We tried to focus on a younger demos, and Sarah, I'm sure will correct me, as she should, but it was 18 to 45. [00:06:06] Tahir: I want, no, sorry, 16 to 45. Sarah: Sixteen! Tahir: Yes. Yeah. Sixteen. First correction of the podcast. But yeah, so I, the 16 to 45, which is really intentional on our part because we've had so many conversations with our client partners around not just Gen Z, but even Gen Alpha. And I know that that age range doesn't necessarily tip into that demo, but it just helped us get to a perspective from a segment of the population that is typically hard to hear from. [00:06:35] Tahir: And so it required a bit more effort and you know, a real conscious effort to hear from those voices because you know, as you can imagine with 16, 17, 18 year olds, they're not always so willing to share their point of view or what they fear in life or what they're going through. And I think that was like, what was really eyeopening for us in this edition is when you're starting to see the anxieties and the tensions that not only those of us who are [00:07:00] Tahir: living life as adults with kids and the pressures of careers and retirement looming for some people, these are people that are really just starting out their lives and to have a better understanding of what they're already struggling with was really eye-opening. [00:07:14] Alison: I'm looking forward to diving into those results for sure. [00:07:17] Alison: You also have a longer lens view, uh, and through four fairly tumultuous years, certainly COVID, post-COVID, now the economic uncertainty. So what are some of the key changes that you've seen for Canadians given how tumultuous the time has been? [00:07:32] Tahir: Yes. I mean, it's interesting. When we first started this, it was hard to get away from, uh, some of those more macro issues that people were struggling with. [00:07:40] Tahir: Certainly COVID, we started it before COVID, we launched it during COVID. So what we were seeing in terms of feelings of isolation, concerns about, obviously health and safety were big themes in those first few years. And then, you know, last year we saw again the financial uncertainty really, um, be a big factor in people's lives and, and whether or not, you know, they're gonna actually have enough to even, you know, survive, frankly. [00:08:08] Tahir: This year what we saw was this interesting emerging theme that was through all the different, let's call them sub themes of problems and issues people were facing. So previously we would've had what I would call just, uh, various themes that made up the top problems people were facing. So you could think about the environment, financial situations people were in, their health and wellness, the healthcare system, and so on here in Canada. [00:08:35] Tahir: This was the first year where we saw a common thread throughout all the different things that people were struggling with. And that was this, this notion of the pressure and the weight of needing to feel like you have to win in life. And so it was interesting to just see that there's this perspective out there that people just need to be better and who they are right now is not good enough. [00:08:56] Tahir: And so, uh, when you think about what that means and you think about your own lives, frankly, everything from, being a better runner, you know, being a better parent, being a better employee or leader is a sense that like, we always have to be better because who we are right now is not good enough. And meeting expectations means that we're actually coming up short. [00:09:18] Tahir: And so, you know, and I always think about this example of being better sleepers, as somebody who has struggled off and on with my sleep over my life. I know that there's very little you can do about your sleep, and yet we still have apps that tell us that we could be doing better. So, you know, I think it's getting to this point now where, and there's this quote that I always refer back to from a 23-year-old. [00:09:40] Tahir: Her name is Sasha and she says, everyone's always, everyone always has to be self-improving. And just being yourself is not enough now. And you know, I think that's one of those quotes that just, when you think about, you know, how we at least try to lead the younger generations, or as parents, you try to help your children understand that who they are is [00:09:59] Tahir: good enough, and they should be proud of who they are, and they should embrace who they are. And now there's this feeling of, actually no, as I am right now, I'm not good enough. And so there's this quest for betterment that is constantly driving people and as a result, they feel like they're always coming up short. [00:10:14] Alison: It's an amazing finding. When you think like the quest for betterment on its surface and when you first hear it and think about the desire to improve, they all seem like positive, good, healthy things. But what the research is telling us, is that it's been taken to a point where we can't be content with what we have today and that's really unfortunate. [00:10:28] Sarah: Yeah. It can go too far. Yeah. [00:10:30] Sarah: Always trying to be better and never happy enough with today. And I'll add to what Tahir said as well. When we look at that longer lens of having done this for four years is a few years ago, we had circumstances in the world that were out of our control, and people knew that, and they were a little resigned to that, and it was upsetting. [00:10:47] Sarah: But we've moved out of that and we can look at how Canadian's mindset is changing over, you know, the several years we've been doing this now. And you know, they came out of that swinging a little bit. Like, all right, it's been two years. I need something different. I need change. The world should be better. [00:11:04] Sarah: Come on people. This has been long enough. That was a little bit more of this like big attitude about it last year and this year they're a little more focused on, okay, maybe not the big change I wanna see is as possible, and that's, that's okay. I still care about improving things and making the world better, but I need to see improvement in my life somewhere and I need to make it happen myself. [00:11:27] Sarah: So what are the small things that I can control, right? I maybe can't control global events, but what can I do in my life, um, to impact my close world and focus on the things I can control? I still care about climate change. Maybe personally I can't do anything about the forest fires, but what can, can I do? [00:11:45] Sarah: And just seeing that, like you said, we have that longer lens and seeing this evolution of the mindset of Canadians is really interesting. [00:11:50] Alison: And also the appreciation that those little steps add up on an individual basis, on a family basis, on a community basis. There's such power. [00:11:59] Sarah: Exactly. Yeah. Like the impact we can have on the lives of someone right close near us and that matters. [00:12:05] Sarah: And that's good if the small things are not a failure. Oh, I didn't change this entire system. No, but you made someone's day better, right? Or you made your day a little better. And that is actually, yeah, how we'll get there. [00:12:16] Alison: So what are some of the other key themes and issues and problems that Canadians are living with and struggling with right now? [00:12:31] Sarah: so we talk about finance and we look into social relationships with friends and family, people having kids, relationships with parents are of course relevant for this age group of younger people. And obviously there's lots of digital world and online world and things we can explore and the bigger problems. [00:12:48] Sarah: And then in the report, we really boil them down into to cluster them together in some themes and, I think the this higher level theme that we're seeing of this, the world is so competitive and I feel the need to be better, I have this weight of winning is probably most obvious in people's finances and in their careers right now. [00:13:08] Sarah: Right? People feel there's only a certain amount to go around and now we're all kind of in competition with one another for it. And we get into in the report how that's affecting, of course, this age group's relationship with work, because of course that's something that is getting talked about a lot and it's a big part of their lives and how they're changing their perspective after many years of their experiences not giving them kind of what they expected they were gonna get out of it. [00:13:38] Sarah: So there was the old kind of mantra of, you work hard and that will probably lead to success, and the majority of Canadians are really questioning that is true or just fully don't believe that that is true anymore. It kind of sounds like, you know, the reward for hard work is just more hard work. So they're trying to think about how can they change their relationship with work to get more out of it for what they're putting in, in a way that makes a lot of sense. [00:14:08] Sarah: Right? Not leading to so much burnout, especially the younger generations, especially the Gen Z, who are maybe looking at some burned out millennials who might feel like it's a little too late to change. I don't know what else I could do, but Gen Z are looking at that going. Okay, that's not working for you. [00:14:23] Sarah: You're doing all that and you still don't have a house, so maybe I'm gonna try and find something different to do. That's a really, I think, obvious place where that theme would come out, but it's really fascinating how we see it across so many different things, though. So this idea of competitiveness isn't just confined to money or jobs or even, I think, [00:14:43] Sarah: the, you know, relatively obvious space of social media where people have that element of you need to present yourself a certain way and you need to look good. And there's this social competition, but we even see it extending into people's real life social lives as well. So real life interactions with friends and people you know, kind of are starting to have this undercurrent of being oddly performative. [00:15:08] Sarah: They're very socially anxious, right? Did I do well? Did they judge me well, or did I fail and make myself look stupid and I embarrassed myself? And so this overarching feeling of competition and social anxiety we really see coming through of course, as well. And I think people have heard a little bit about the social anxiety that especially younger generations are experiencing. [00:15:31] Sarah: Um, and so we really dive into what's going on with that, where that's coming from and what that's leading to. [00:15:36] Tahir: And Sarah, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that stat was like, 73% of Gen Z feels social anxiety. I mean, I don't wanna put you on the spot. [00:15:43] Sarah: No, it is. [00:15:44] Tahir: I remember that number being like surprisingly high [00:15:48] Sarah: And it's going up, especially compared to last year. [00:15:51] Sarah: Yeah. 73% of Gen Z say that there's sometimes, or always very nervous about what to say or how to interact socially. And it's, it's sad, right? Because these are just the moments when you're actually with a person and you're still kind of holding yourself back. You're still kind of separate from one another a little bit. [00:16:11] Alison: That is such a shocking percentage and a really sad statement. Then if you overlay other research that's been done about the loneliness epidemic in Canada across all different age groups but it's particularly relevant for younger generations. So we have the loneliness pandemic combined with social stage fright, and then the hustle to nowhere, it feels like need to give our younger Canadians more hope and reasons to believe in opportunities and to truly be themselves. [00:16:39] Sarah: A lot of it's coming from this idea of like me against the world, or they must be trying to get something out of me, right? Everyone's kind of in it for themselves. So, I am hesitant to be vulnerable with this person because they might use it against me. [00:16:54] Tahir: Hey, just on that, it's always interesting to have these conversations because then you can reflect back on the findings, you know, perhaps in slightly different ways, and the weight of winning was the theme. [00:17:03] Tahir: But you could probably also say the theme is burnout. Because there's such a pressure to not just be better, but to create this quality of life you, you believed was available to you or that you believed was promised to you in some way. But then when...
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EP52 - The Future of Marketing Education with Kyle Murray
09/23/2025
EP52 - The Future of Marketing Education with Kyle Murray
Traditional teaching methods are changing, and the skills future marketers need are evolving faster than universities can adapt. How can post-secondary institutions prepare students for a profession where change is the only constant? In today's episode, CEO of the CMA Alison Simpson interviews Kyle Murray, Dean of the Lazaridis School of Business and Economics at Wilfred Laurier University. Kyle's approach: Embrace experiential learning, integrate Generative AI, and prioritize uniquely human skills such as adaptability and emotional intelligence. His most important insight? Cultivate a 'forever student' mindset - because in marketing, the most valuable skill is learning. [00:00:00] Presenter: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. [00:00:26] Alison: For today's episode, I'm pleased to welcome Kyle Murray, the Dean of the Lazaridis School of Business and Economics at Wilfred Laurier University. Kyle took over as Dean in July of 2024 after a distinguished career at the University of Alberta School of Business, where he served as the acting Dean with a PhD in marketing and psychology. [00:00:44] Alison: Kyle brings deep expertise in innovation and behavioural change, utilizing experimental psychology and behavioural economics to better understand the choices that people make. He's consulted with clients in government and Fortune 50 companies and also been a founder, advisor investor in a series of startups. [00:01:02] Alison: In his new role as Dean, Kyle is focused on expanding the university's leadership and experiential learning, also in engaging alumni and enriching a culture of innovation that encourages risk-taking and challenges convention. With generative AI and other technological disruptions reshaping how we educate future marketers and the skills that they'll need to succeed, this culture is even more important than ever before. [00:01:25] Alison: Kyle's recent transition from Alberta to Ontario has also given him some fresh insights into regional differences in our Canadian education system, as well as their impact on business talent development. And this is one of the many topics that we will discuss today. Kyle, I'm really looking forward to a great conversation, and it's an absolute pleasure to share the mic with you today on CMA Connect. [00:01:46] Kyle: Thanks, Alison. I'm really excited to be here. I'm a big fan of CMA and my first time on the podcast, so yeah, I'm looking forward to it. [00:01:53] Alison: Kyle, I'd love to start by hearing your story. First, what drew you to higher education and teaching the marketing profession? [00:01:59] Kyle: Yeah, I think it's just, I love learning and I really enjoy the university environment. I'm a researcher at heart and I like the scientific method. [00:02:08] Kyle: This time of year, especially, the university is just such an exciting and energizing place to be, so that's really what drew me into it. I actually started my career as an entrepreneur. I was involved in a few startups, and that sounds better than it is. What really happened was I graduated in the early 1990s with an undergraduate degree in psychology. [00:02:28] Kyle: And I could not find a job, so I had to start my own, make my own job, start my own business. But that, that worked out well because after a few different endeavours, I was able to sell them and that allowed me to go back to get a PhD. So I suddenly found myself with some time and a little bit of money and flexibility, and so I went back to get a PhD. [00:02:48] Kyle: I still wasn't entirely sure what I'd do. I knew I liked research. I didn't know how I'd like teaching in the university environment. I taught my first class. I fell in love with it. I got a great job offer here in Southern Ontario, actually at the Ivey School at Western Ontario, and that's where I started my career. [00:03:04] Kyle: And I've been in academia ever since. Marketing in particular, I think I was drawn to just because I find people fascinating. My, my background was in psychology as well as marketing. So just consumers and consumer decision making, why they do what they do. I still find it fascinating and I'll probably never get tired of asking questions about that. [00:03:25] Alison: I love that, in many ways, necessity is the mother of invention. You graduated in a challenging economy and created your own path, which is amazing. I also love that you've got that entrepreneurial and builder mentality and experience, and then came back to higher education, because I think having that real world experience is so powerful for educating the marketers of tomorrow as well. [00:03:49] Kyle: I agree. I think it's a helpful mindset to have, but I have to say sometimes it's a mindset that bumps up against the bureaucracy that is a large university or even a mid-sized university. It can be challenging at times as you wanna move quickly, and one of the things I've really had to learn is patience. [00:04:04] Kyle: Things don't move as fast in a big organization as they do when it's a small shop. And I think I've learned that over time to some extent. But it's still certainly a challenge. [00:04:13] Alison: Before joining the CMA I spent four years in the startup world. It really is about evolve or die. So I can absolutely relate to needing to relearn some patience when I came back to a bigger organization for sure. [00:04:25] Alison: So I know you've worked in Ireland and Australia as well as Canada, so I'd love you to share any differences that you've seen and how marketing's taught internationally compared to how we teach it here. [00:04:35] Kyle: Yeah, good question. I was also in France for a little while, but I was at INSEAD, so it was an English program, which luckily for me 'cause [00:04:42] Kyle: my French is terrible. So that was, I had enough trouble just getting groceries. I wouldn't want to teach in French, but there's small differences regionally for sure. Like I would say both Ireland and France, you get some of that European flavour. There's a different perspective on the world, certainly geopolitically, and Australia too, a little bit more of a Commonwealth and maybe Asian influences there. [00:05:05] Kyle: But t the end of the day, whenever I taught marketing or taught people about marketing in any of these places, it just comes down to the same thing that we'd always talk about anywhere is, you need to understand your customer and then find some way to create some compelling value for them. And there's some, there's definitely some cultural pieces there that are different. [00:05:23] Kyle: What might be compelling in Ireland is different than what's compelling in Canada some of the time. But at the core it's just trying to understand people. [00:05:30] Alison: That's a great reminder that as much as the world around us is different, as much as technology and other things are changing, how we market the basics are still mission critical. [00:05:40] Kyle: Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And I think we get challenged sometimes with changes in the world, whether it's tariff policies or new technologies, and it is easy to get caught up in those things because they're so important and they're so immediately critical. But we're still very much people-driven. [00:05:57] Kyle: Commerce is still people-driven, it's relationship-driven. It's that understanding people, understanding customers, understanding clients, why they buy what they're buying, what's gonna motivate them, that's really universal, at least in the western world. Might be a little bit different if you get into the Middle East or Asia. [00:06:13] Kyle: But in the Western world it, it's pretty much the same. [00:06:17] Alison: Now after a very successful decade teaching at the Alberta School of Business, what attracted you to make the move to Waterloo last year? [00:06:24] Kyle: This is gonna be a bit of a biased a response, but really I'd known about the Lazaridis School for a while, the Bachelor of Business Administration Program, [00:06:32] Kyle: the BBA program in particular, is truly one of the best in the world. They're global leaders here in undergraduate education and especially experiential education, and I thought this was really important. My view was the future of education in business, and, but maybe in other fields too is experiential. [00:06:50] Kyle: It's more and more learning by doing, so we can adapt quickly. We learn some of those people skills that we need in organizations. Lazaridis is very good at that. So it's a big part of what attracted me. I have to say that some of it is also just timing. Both my daughters were at an age where they could be independent and that freed my wife and I up to consider making a move. [00:07:11] Kyle: I also, I always liked Ontario and I like Southern Ontario and I've enjoyed being, close to Toronto, but also having the tech community around here in Waterloo, there's just I think a lot of exciting things going on. And when it comes to the students themselves, we have really strong demand for this program, but we're also really good at placing students. [00:07:31] Kyle: And so if you're a Dean, it's nice to come to a place where, we had 12,000 people apply for 1500 spots last year. And when they graduate, we place 97% of them. So that is a foundation. Really makes my job a lot easier. And so that was a big part of why I was drawn here. [00:07:50] Alison: The proof points are incredibly compelling. [00:07:52] Alison: That job placement rate, gotta be one of the best in the world, so congratulations for that. [00:07:56] Kyle: Yeah. And so just continue that plug maybe a little bit is, one of the things that, that I worry about, being in a university setting is youth unemployment in general has been creeping up. It's, somewhere north now, 15%, which is not good. [00:08:09] Kyle: I mentioned I graduated in the nineties, it was 18 or 19% at the time. It, it can set a lot of people back in their careers. I think one of the things that's really great about business schools and our school in particular is at the end of the day, we are pretty good at getting people jobs. [00:08:24] Kyle: We're fairly responsive to what industry wants and the talent that we develop. And yeah, 97, 98% get jobs and it's even higher in co-op, it's 99% plus. So I think that's an important part of what we do. [00:08:36] Alison: I can see why you have the level of demand you have for the program too. [00:08:39] Kyle: Yeah. It doesn't hurt, right? [00:08:40] Kyle: Ultimately students, they wanna learn, but they want to see the light at the end of the tunnel too, and parents as well. And so yeah, that really helps with demand. Of course. [00:08:49] Alison: Absolutely. So now that you're just over a year in Ontario, I'd love to hear what differences have you seen or what surprised you about Ontario's education system compared to Alberta's? [00:09:01] Kyle: Yeah. Because I started my career in Ontario as a professor, I had a fairly good sense of how things were here. It certainly, it's a great place to be. I think close to Toronto, there's a lot of really interesting jobs for graduates. There's also enough good business schools, even great business schools, that it's very competitive, which makes us all a little bit better. [00:09:21] Kyle: But the one thing that did surprise me that was different from when I was here, 15, 16 years ago, was grade inflation at the high school level. And some of that might be legitimate because students today are pretty impressive. But it means that something like 30% of the applications to university now, in Ontario, are from students that have an average in the nineties, and that makes it really difficult to select. [00:09:46] Kyle: Who are the good students? I joke sometimes with our alumni who are senior executives, there's a whole bunch of CEOs with grades in the eighties, future CEOs with grades in the eighties that we're turning down. I'd love to be able to accept, but the grade inflation at the high school level in Ontario is high. [00:10:02] Kyle: There's a high percentage of the class comes out with good grades. [00:10:06] Alison: Definitely is a surprise to me to hear that. And when I think about the number of friends I have who talk about their kids getting nineties, I've always thought there's no way I'd get into university today. 'cause I certainly didn't have a 96 or 97 average. [00:10:20] Kyle: Yeah, I mean, when I was in high school, if there was somebody who had an average in the nineties, it was one kid and they were brilliant and working really hard. And a lot of really good students that were getting into university were in the eighties. I think one difference between Alberta and Ontario, [00:10:37] Kyle: part of the reason grade inflation wasn't as severe in Alberta is because the province has a standardized set of exams. So in each of the major subjects, there's a provincial exam you have to take. Everybody takes it if they're gonna get through those courses, and it's worth quite a bit. When I took it, it was probably 50% of your grade. [00:10:54] Kyle: I think now maybe it's 30% of your grade. And if you as a teacher have class grades that are really offside with your test grades, people are gonna ask questions and so that, that helps keep grade inflation down a little bit. Not entirely. There's still some, but I think it's, it helps a little. [00:11:11] Alison: Now, I know you recently co-authored an article on the important role that business schools are playing in Ontario's economy so can you share with our listeners some of your thoughts on this? [00:11:19] Kyle: I'd mentioned already youth unemployment is at a fairly high level, 15, maybe 16% right now. And even in some really traditionally strong careers like software engineering, computing science, we're seeing jobs disappear. [00:11:34] Kyle: Other places that have, are traditionally popular careers, medicine and law, they're hard to get into, but also there aren't that many jobs when you get out, so they have to be somewhat constrained. The reality is there's a lot of jobs in the business world, from accounting to finance, to marketing, to supply chain management. [00:11:52] Kyle: And so that's what we really have been good at. We've placed 98 or percent or so of the students. And so part of what I was writing about, and I should say that the article was co-written with Detlev Zwick, who's the Dean at the Schulich School at York University. Part of what we were writing about is just, there's a lot of talk about the importance of STEM jobs and jobs in technology and healthcare, and those are important fields, but we probably don't talk enough about business, and I think [00:12:21] Kyle: the opportunities in business are probably broader in scope than they are in healthcare or STEM. Just, you can work in technology, you can work in healthcare, you can work in almost any area of business or not-for-profit or government requires the kinds of skills that we teach. So part of, I think the argument that we were making is we just really need to give more attention to what business schools are doing and the success we're having in finding students jobs and starting companies. [00:12:49] Kyle: And it, you know, encouraging people to go on to other things. Some go on to be lawyers, some go on to science careers. But I think those basic skills, whether it's reading a financial statement or putting together a marketing plan, are super valuable across a large range of careers. And so that's essentially what we are arguing is, don't forget about us. [00:13:09] Kyle: We're working hard, doing a good job. Our students are very successful. We wanna make sure that, not so much for the schools themselves, but for students in high school or even other programs in university, thinking about where their careers can go. We can play a big part in that and in lots of different ways. [00:13:25] Kyle: Not necessarily just an undergraduate degree or a traditional MBA, but all kinds of training. Even if what you need to learn is just a little bit about finance or a little bit about marketing. Those are the kinds of things that that we do, and we do them very well. [00:13:39] Alison: Now, building on that, there's no doubt that the marketing profession is undergoing absolutely tectonic shifts and Gen AI is a prime example, but certainly not the only example. [00:13:49] Alison: So how are universities adapting to meet this challenge and really ensure that students are gonna graduate with the skills that they need, especially when those skills are evolving quickly? [00:13:59] Kyle: Yeah, that's a good question. That's one that we wrestle with all the time. I can tell you from my time as a professor and some of my colleagues, it was nice to teach a course that was more or less the same year to year for a couple of years. [00:14:11] Kyle: When we first, you know e-commerce was first rising on the scene becoming an important part of marketing and social media was part of marketing. You could see professors sort of struggling to keep up with all the changes. Facebook's updating its algorithm all the time, and the details of how you'd actually implement something on those platforms was changing. [00:14:30] Kyle: So I think that keeping up with the changes that have been going on in marketing or elsewhere is challenging. What we try to teach students is to be adaptable. I think experiential learning, having the opportunity to work in teams, to work with different types of technology, to try different things, to do some of those things under a little bit of pressure and a little bit of stress, [00:14:51] Kyle: that's helpful, and that's where we put a lot of emphasis on experiential learning. I also think being digital from kind of day one right away, getting immersed in technology, encouraged to use those tools, having experience with it, which to be honest, you don't have to do with most students these days. [00:15:06] Kyle: Most of them come to university with very strong technical skills, social media skills way beyond my own. They're, they've been doing it their whole lives, so they're pretty good at it. But then the other two things, which are fairly new to universities and new to business schools, but we do put a lot more emphasis on trying to make sure students are resilient and adaptable and have a good sense of how to manage their own wellbeing. [00:15:31] Kyle: They have some of that empathy and emotional intelligence they're gonna need when they get into these roles. Those human skills, those are some of the things that I suspect will survive as being incredibly important, even as technology continues to improve. On the flip side, some of the technical skills might be decreasing a little over the next few years in value and see some of the things that Gen AI is already doing, some of the ability to automate certain tasks, whether it's writing or design or coding. [00:16:01] Kyle: And so my perspective on that is we need to right away start teaching students to partner with that technology. We can't be afraid of it. We have to make sure we use it even though it can be scary. And there's certainly some challenges for universities and yeah, how do we make sure people aren't cheating? [00:16:17] Kyle: How do we make sure our evaluation methods are testing students and not testing the machines? So there's, I don't wanna minimize the challenge in any way, but I think there's some things we can do and it really is around making sure we immerse people in technology right away, and we put a lot of focus on those human skills. [00:16:36] Alison: Earlier in our...
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EP51 - CRTC Compliance: Consumer Complaints & Staying Competitive with Steven Harroun
09/16/2025
EP51 - CRTC Compliance: Consumer Complaints & Staying Competitive with Steven Harroun
Marketers have a lot to lose. With complaints surging, mistakes can lead to hefty fines while playing it safe can limit innovation and creativity. So what can they do? CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Harroun, Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC to see where the complaints are coming from, and share the strategies marketers use to stay both competitive and compliant. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:28:07 - 00:01:00:20 Alison It's my pleasure to welcome Steven Harroun, a regulatory leader whose expertise sits at the critical intersection of marketing compliance and consumer protection in Canada's digital landscape. As a Vice President, Compliance and Enforcement at the CRTC, Steven oversees the enforcement of laws and regulations that directly impact how Canadian marketers operate, including CASL, Canada Anti-Spam Legislation and the Unsolicited Telecommunication Rules, including the National Do Not Call list, which both shape the daily practices of marketing professionals in Canada. 00:01:00:22 - 00:01:34:13 Alison While Steven's primary role focuses on regulatory enforcement, his unique position makes him an invaluable voice for marketers navigating Canada's complex compliance landscape. Steven and his team are highly valuable partners to the CMA. He has written articles for us addressing the practical challenges that marketers face when contacting Canadian consumers, while ensuring they're staying compliant with federal regulations. Steven's recent article "From CASL to unsolicited calls: Insights for marketers", really demonstrates his commitment to helping marketing professionals understand and adapt to evolving regulatory requirements. 00:01:34:15 - 00:01:59:06 Alison Steven brings over two decades of experience in telecommunications policy and regulation, having joined the CRTC in 2002 after working at the Canada Revenue Agency and in the private sector. Through his work, Steven has developed international partnerships with regulators worldwide, creating memoranda of Understanding that help enforce Canadian marketing laws across borders, which is a critical capability in today's global digital marketing environment. 00:01:59:08 - 00:02:05:03 Alison Steven, thanks so much for joining me today. I'm really looking forward to an engaging and insightful conversation. 00:02:05:05 - 00:02:21:22 Steven Thank you Alison. That's probably too kind of an introduction, but I appreciate it. And I truly appreciate the invitation. Like, engagements like this are like one of the favourite parts of my role in the organization. And, if I could do one of these every day, I would. So, no, I look forward to the discussion. 00:02:21:23 - 00:02:42:23 Alison Thank you. Now, Steven, the CMA and the CRTC have a long- standing, very collaborative relationship, from coauthoring thought leadership to working on key consumer choice initiatives. Building on that foundation of shared understanding, what do you see as the most important evolution in the dialog between regulators and the marketing community over the past few years? 00:02:43:01 - 00:03:14:12 Steven Yeah, I, let me start with something probably your members already know. But the CRTC, you know, we're an independent quasi judicial administrative tribunal, right? So we regulate communications in Canada in the public interest. We hold public consultations on like telecommunications and broadcasting matters, and we make decisions based on a public record. Now, if you turn to my role at the CRTC, which is a little bit unique, and it is unique to kind of have an enforcement arm embedded within the communications regulator, and I was gonna say perhaps I'll get to tell you later about the advantages of that. 00:03:14:14 - 00:03:33:17 Steven But, you know, I am responsible and accountable for promoting compliance, as you said, with Canada's anti=spam legislation in which we affectionately call CASL. And if you actually went to look at the real name of that legislation it's about 42 words long, so CASL works really well, as well as the unsolicited telecommunications roles, which includes our national Do Not Call list. 00:03:33:17 - 00:03:50:09 Steven Right. So that's which is kind of probably a key piece, you know, for your members here. I'm super proud, and I, you know, I started this by saying, I appreciate the invitation, but I'm, I'm super proud of kind of the relationship that we have with industry and specifically the CMA, because I feel like it's very longstanding for me, which is great. 00:03:50:09 - 00:04:09:16 Steven I think one of my first engagements when I stepped into this chair a few years ago was with the CMA. So I'm glad we've been able to continue this discussion, because educating on compliance, ensuring that marketers understand their obligations, take that bigger, just ensuring that all kind of legitimate companies in Canada understand the rules of the road, if you will. 00:04:09:18 - 00:04:34:05 Steven That's key to the success rate. Compliance is key to my success. So at the end of the day, if the more and more outreach activities like this that we do and you're right, we've done vlogs, we're doing this, you know, maybe next year I'll get to do some in-person thing with you guys, perhaps something that's, on the radar. But it's actually these collaborations and these unique opportunities where I get to kind of, you know, talk about, well, this is the world as I see it today. 00:04:34:10 - 00:04:57:18 Steven You know, and kind of the premise of your question was exactly that, like today. So I look back and I look back and, you know, I look back ten years and go, the things that we were seeing then and the complaints that we were seeing then from Canadians and the environment in which we're operating, we're very much focused on telemarketing and people getting calls and people, you know, I was going to say deciding whether or not they wanted to get calls right? 00:04:57:19 - 00:05:20:06 Steven Now, ironically, you know, it's ten years since CASL came into force this year, just in July. So that dialog has changed, right? Even over, even with your organization over the past decade, that dialog has changed. We are now talking about not just about calls. We are now talking about emails, and we're talking about SMS and we're talking about other digital platforms, perhaps that we hadn't even contemplated the early days of CASL. 00:05:20:11 - 00:05:41:00 Steven Right? We were talking about will you agree to get my email that's exploded kind of exponentially, even just from that, from that side of the house. So I think that's interesting to me, and I think that's fascinating as far as a landscape perspective goes, the legislation on the telemarketing side is 20 years old. You know, the even on CASL now, it's actually hard to believe for me to say that that's ten years old. 00:05:41:02 - 00:06:01:11 Steven But the environment in which we, you know, we ensure compliance within those regimes has just changed dramatically. And I look at, from my organization and if I look at kind of how we're trying to approach that. We, and I'm sure and I'm sure we'll get into this discussion, like your members have had to totally change things up completely. Like we, in the last ten years 00:06:01:11 - 00:06:17:17 Steven I built up a technical forensics team, you know, and I, you know, and I have a whole group of people now who, who slice and dice all the intelligence that we receive. But, you know, then we also have to look at when we're doing major investigations, we have to look at people's devices. And we have to understand, I was going to say, I'm no engineer, right? 00:06:17:17 - 00:06:35:02 Steven I'm really lucky, or a techie engineer. I'm really lucky that I get to lead a really great team of really cool, really technical people. But they can look at all this coding and they can look, you know, behind the screen and they can tell me like, oh, this is happening and this is where this is and this, which, which fascinates me. 00:06:35:02 - 00:06:53:18 Steven And if you told me ten years ago I'd lead a team of forensics experts, I would have, I would have said, I must be changing jobs, but I'm not, because that's just how much the environment has changed which I think it's really cool. But then I, you know, if I go to where your members are sitting and the things that they need to do, it isn't just calling Canadians about something, right? 00:06:53:18 - 00:07:09:19 Steven It's how are we reaching Canadians on so many different levels in so many different platforms? And most importantly for me, because I go back to my compliance roots, is how are we respecting Canadians' choices? Like how are we respect, like this is how I want to be engaged, and this is how often I want to be engaged. And you know what? 00:07:09:22 - 00:07:26:11 Steven I don't want to be engaged anymore. Right? Like that's the other side of that. So I, you know, it's easy for me to sit here as, you know, the Vice President of Compliance and Enforcement and say, do this, do this, do this and respect this, respect this, respect this. But I also, I understand, I was gonna say I worked in private sector at the early start in my career. 00:07:26:11 - 00:07:45:16 Steven Actually, I understand the other side of that where it's like, okay, but we want to push all the levers we can, obviously, to get our message out. So that, to me, that the technological space and how much things have evolved in our conversations over the ten years is really fascinating to me. And I'll be honest, what keeps my team up at night is actually the more nefarious actors in this space, right? 00:07:45:16 - 00:08:08:06 Steven Because with all this technological advancement and all this, these different ways to engage Canadians, and if you will, all the ways to kind of run around the year, move around the legitimate ways of doing business, I now have, we now have, it's not just me. We now have Canadians who are fearful to answer the phone, don't know whether to click on a link, don't know whether this is coming from Company X or not. 00:08:08:07 - 00:08:24:05 Steven It's, I think it's creating such a challenging perspective. And I think it's really hard, as me, like as a regulator and my, my ultimate goal is just to stay ahead of all that. I would never consider the fact that we're leading edge, but if I can stay close to that edge to understand where things are going and try and keep ahead of it. 00:08:24:07 - 00:08:39:06 Steven If you've heard me speak before, I often, you know, I often say, I want to, I want to disrupt the activities of the bad actors. And then on the other side, after I've done that, I want to hire them, because they're so savvy and they're so technical experts and they're so nimble. And I feel like, oh, have I got a job for you. 00:08:39:06 - 00:08:59:16 Steven Like, if you will, use your powers for good as opposed to other ulterior motives. But, you know, I think the biggest challenge we have is just keeping pace with innovation. But I think, you know, for me, it's how do I give the best advice possible? How do I ensure that our perspective on compliance remains relevant for the activities that your members want to pursue? 00:08:59:18 - 00:09:37:01 Alison And Steven, it's so helpful to have someone in your role who does have the private sector experience as well as deep, robust public sector experience, and really can understand the importance of both of those stakeholders. And then to your point, where there's so much evolving in our profession from a technology perspective, from a broader marketplace perspective. So our ongoing collaboration to ensure that we are acting in the best interests of Canadian consumers and also ensuring that businesses and brands can continue to grow and thrive, drive our economy. 00:09:37:03 - 00:09:59:09 Alison That's a very important goal that we are both very united on. So your role gives you a really unique and very valuable view into the concerns that Canadians have about advertising and marketing. And I know our listeners will be very interested to hear what are the top issues and complaints that the CRTC has received from Canadian consumers over the last 12 months? 00:09:59:11 - 00:10:16:16 Steven Yeah, it's interesting and kind of a piece from the previous question about how the environment has changed, the complaints of Canadians have changed as well. I know kind of where we're headed over the next few months just by what I've seen the last few months, and we're seeing that real surge in complaints just related to kind of unwanted digital communications. 00:10:16:16 - 00:10:29:08 Steven And I'll even go past the email and I was going to say, my son will tell me, email is so paste, you're like, you know, you need to be on Instagram and you need to be on Snapchat. You need to be on all these other things, and folks are taking advantage of that, which is good, as a good, strong marketer should. 00:10:29:10 - 00:10:46:16 Steven But then I go to the other side about engaging those people properly is really important. And I'm fascinated, my 6 or 7 years sitting in this chair, that the number one complaint at the end of the day remains the same, which is always about consent. And it remains, you know, like a) they're not supposed to call me, I'm on the Do Not Call list. 00:10:46:18 - 00:11:03:02 Steven B) I've never consented to receive this email. C) Yes, I said they could e-mail me. I didn't realize it was going to be 80 times a day because a sale is about to end. Like those types of things, right? So I'm fascinated that even in this day and age, it really is about that. Consent, consent, consent, when we're talking legitimate. 00:11:03:02 - 00:11:26:21 Steven And let's be, let me be clear on that. You know, from legitimate communications, the number one complaint remains consent. And we can get into that a little bit later. But then there's also the frustration which I expressed to you earlier, just on the more nefarious actors. Right? So now people don't know if it really is the Netflix, you know, email or the network's text message saying, oh, we couldn't process your payment or, you know, people don't know if it's like really their financial institution. 00:11:27:02 - 00:11:48:06 Steven We, at the Government of Canada face lots of impersonation, which is challenging, right? Because all of these scams, if you will, are really targeted to just get financial information, get personal information to do more nefarious activities behind the scenes. Right? So I often talk about how I'm going to address that with consumers. Right? How I'm going to deal with that with Canadians. 00:11:48:06 - 00:12:08:04 Steven And we operate under a civil regulatory regime. Right? So and that's kind of that's kind of important to understand, because I can ensure compliance with all the legitimate companies in Canada. And I would suggest that I probably have 95% plus compliance, because legitimate companies just need to know the rules and how to comply with the rules, because they're very familiar that there are rules to follow. 00:12:08:06 - 00:12:37:09 Steven There's some of the things we're talking about here, about government impersonation or brand impersonation, those types of things, like those are for the most part, criminal in nature. They're the only, the only goal in that communication to a Canadian is to steal information. Financial, personal whatever. So it's fascinating. I've got a really cool tech forensics team which can help me understand all that, and slice and dice all that, and understand, are we talking legitimate companies perhaps doing something inappropriate or not compliant with whatever piece of legislation we're talking about, or the other side of that 00:12:37:09 - 00:12:58:12 Steven is, or are they really just illegitimate companies trying to do illegitimate things and inappropriate things? I'm super lucky. I'm constrained by a civil regulatory regime. Fair. But I have lots of other levers I can pull, right? I'm embedded within a telecommunications regulator. So the way the Telecom Act is structured in Canada, I can impose certain conditions on TSPs, and I can ask them to do certain things. 00:12:58:16 - 00:13:22:10 Steven You know, they can't willingly, if you will, disrupt traffic, whether that's telephony traffic or whether that's, you know, email traffic or SMS traffic, they have to push it through. They have to pass it through. Just if you will, a pipe, that's where the traffic flows. As the regulator, I can say, oh, but wait a minute, we have evidence to suggest that this type of activity with this type of technical background, all that stuff behind it, is actually fraudulent. 00:13:22:12 - 00:13:47:07 Steven And, for me, to protect Canadians in this space, because ultimately Canadians don't actually care if I have a civil powers or criminal powers or whatever. They just want the calls to stop. They want the emails to start, they want the text messages to stop that are potentially going to try and take their information. So I'm able to kind of leverage some regulatory policy tools to say, okay, TSPs, if you see this activity, I suggest you don't pass that on to Canadians. 00:13:47:11 - 00:14:06:19 Steven And we've had some really great success on both the telephony side. And we're working on the CASL side of the house as far as like where we can stop traffic that we know is truly illegitimate. So a) that protects Canadians because the phone never rings, the email never lands in their inbox, the text message never arrives that says, oh, update your information and maybe you don't. 00:14:06:21 - 00:14:28:11 Steven Or you do, unknowingly and unsuspecting anything you know untoward, but b) it actually helps the legitimate companies establish themselves as trusted brands, right? Because if you don't have all the, if you will, the the noise around it, trusted brands, trusted marketers, trusted organizations can get their message clearly to Canadians, and Canadians can trust what they're receiving. 00:14:28:11 - 00:14:50:21 Steven So yeah. So so for me it's it's the complexity has changed of complaints. It's no longer about they shouldn't be calling me. The other side of that is, the Canadians' complaints are becoming much more sophisticated. Right?People are now aware of their personal information rights, their privacy rights. So Canadians are much more sophisticated as well in how they're engaging with the regulator. And they're saying, wait a minute, the like, they're not allowed to do this or they shouldn't do this. 00:14:50:21 - 00:15:15:01 Steven And, you know, those types of things. So I appreciate the sophistication of the complaints that I receive. I appreciate them pointing me to all types of, of, of activities going on in this space. And we try, bit by bit, whether it's through civil to regulatory policy, even just through educating Canadians. You know, I, you know, I do this for, you know, these compliance things across all kinds of different organizations and industries like this. 00:15:15:01 - 00:15:28:17 Steven But I also, you know, place a huge effort on how do I educate Canadians in this space, because if I can't stop some of those activities, it really does come down to, the more Canadians are aware, the more they're educated, the less likely they are to fall victim. 00:15:28:19 - 00:15:44:17 Alison The CMA is very proud to manage the Do Not Mail service, which is a cornerstone of consumer choice in the physical marketing world. From the CRTC's perspective, how valuable are these kinds of industry-led self-regulatory models? You know,...
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EP50 - From Marketer to CEO with Richard Kellam
09/03/2025
EP50 - From Marketer to CEO with Richard Kellam
What does it take to rise from your first marketing role to CEO of a major communications company? In today's episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Richard Kellam, who transformed his career from marketer to President & CEO of DATA Communications Management Corp. (DCM). Richard reveals how he leveraged transferable skills to make the jump to CPG, secured international opportunities, and how he evolved from Chief Customer Officer to CEO. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:28:10 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:28:12 - 00:01:00:08 Alison In today's episode, it's my pleasure to welcome Richard Kellam, who represents one of marketing's most desirable success stories. A CMO who successfully transitioned to global and national president and CEO roles. This is still far too much of a rarity in our profession. Richard is president and CEO of Data Communications Management Corp., commonly known as DCM. His journey from brand manager to chief executive spans three decades, eight different countries and leading marketing, sales and ultimately the top job for tier one brands. 00:01:00:10 - 00:01:26:12 Alison Richard's career progression through marketing leadership roles at Molson, Wrigley, Mars and Goodyear, combined with strategic moves into sales and general management positions, provides a really wonderful blueprint for ambitious marketing professionals seeking to expand their influence beyond the marketing role. At DCM, Richard is proving that marketing-trained CEOs bring truly unique advantages to leadership roles, particularly in today's customer-centric, digitally driven business environment. 00:01:26:14 - 00:02:00:05 Alison He's leading DCM's transformation from a traditional print company to a tech enabled marketing solutions provider, demonstrating how his marketing background provides crucial insights into customer needs as well as market trends and brand positioning. His career offers inspiration and practical guidance for many talented CMOs who aspire to CEO roles, but often find the path unclear. Richard's proved that with the right experiences, mindset shifts and strategic career moves, the transition from CMO to CEO is not only possible, but can be a very natural evolution for marketing leaders. 00:02:00:07 - 00:02:03:13 Alison Richard, it's an absolute pleasure to welcome you today. 00:02:03:15 - 00:02:05:15 Richard Thanks for having me, Alison. Appreciate it. 00:02:05:17 - 00:02:18:15 Alison And Richard and I first met very early in our careers. He was at Molson and I was the VP at McLaren. McCann overseeing the Molson account. So it's been a long journey together. And Richard, it's been really amazing to watch your path. 00:02:18:17 - 00:02:21:10 Richard Thank you. Appreciate it. Yeah, it was a lot of fun working together many years ago. 00:02:21:12 - 00:02:30:16 Alison So I'd love you to take us to your first job in marketing and how you thought about your career. In those early days, did you ever consider the possibility of becoming a CEO? 00:02:30:18 - 00:02:54:23 Richard I'm not sure I even knew what CEO meant back then. So I guess the answer to your question is no. I never really thought it was, it was possible. My actually first job at university was in sales for a company called Playtex. Actually, I applied for the job, but I"m really gonna date myself here. But it was in a classified ad in the Globe and Mail, right? 00:02:55:02 - 00:03:13:18 Richard Who remembers that? And I applied for the job, went in and interviewed for it and successfully got the role. They actually had two divisions. They had a they called it a family products mission. They had an intimate apparel division, and I was hired for the intimate apparel division. So I'm sure people know the Playtex products in that division and started in sales. Had a combination of, key accounts. 00:03:13:18 - 00:03:33:16 Richard A lot of the accounts aren't even in the market anymore. Simpson's, Eaton's, Sears. Of course, none of those are around. Kmart, Woolworths, which Walmart acquired. And then I had a bunch of independent accounts in downtown Toronto as well. So I did that for the for the first year and thankfully ended up being quite successful. I actually won rookie of the year, which is quite fun. 00:03:33:16 - 00:03:43:16 Richard And then after one year I was moved into marketing and I was an assistant brand manager on a few brands in Playtex. So that was my start in my marketing journey, you know, quite a while ago in the mid 80s. 00:03:43:18 - 00:04:05:01 Alison I definitely remember the days of classified ads and all of the retailers you mentioned. So we're certainly of the same vintage. I also worked in sales earlier in my career, and I think it's such a powerful view to have, especially early in your career, and can really shape your approach to marketing. So building on that, what experience or skills did you gain in that first sales and marketing role that have served you well throughout your career? 00:04:05:03 - 00:04:31:12 Richard So the biggest skill I gained on the marketing side was the importance of data analytics in business intelligence, on the sales side as well. And this was a days where computers were just being introduced to business and nobody had their own personal computer. Back to my point where I won this, this rookie of the year sales award. Actually, I got a trip to Jamaica, so my wife and I went to Jamaica, and on that trip I read a book on how to use Excel. 00:04:31:14 - 00:04:44:23 Richard So I learned Excel from a from a book because I didn't have a computer. So I was sitting on a beach for the week, just reading about how to use Excel. And when I got back to the office, they had a computer room. So you didn't have a computer at your desk. You had a computer room. And I started to apply that 00:04:44:23 - 00:05:05:08 Richard learning to learn how to use Excel, because I knew that data analytics and business intelligence was extremely important in marketing or important in business. So I, I've been kind of a numbers guy or a data guy or an analyst guy or business intelligence guy, kind of for my whole career, using data and insights to create value for a business. 00:05:05:08 - 00:05:27:10 Richard So that was really defining, I'd say, point for me in my career, and it's certainly been kind of central to my skill and capability as I've progressed. And I'd say the other key competency or attribute, I'm, my archetype is an explorer. So I like to learn new things and see new things and discover new things. So I'm a very curious business leader as well. 00:05:27:10 - 00:05:39:14 Richard So curiosity, while I was in that sales role or in that early stage entry level marketing role, was an important competency and that really contributed to my success as well. In addition to the data analytics and business intelligence. 00:05:39:16 - 00:06:00:19 Alison Curiosity and the constantly learning is such a mission critical skill and mindset for anyone in marketing. I think it's always been the case, but given how the pace of change is accelerated around us, it is absolute mission critical. So following Playtex, you moved into the first of many marketing roles in the CPG industry, starting with Robin Hood Foods and then later Wrigley. 00:06:00:21 - 00:06:03:11 Alison What made that move possible for you? 00:06:03:13 - 00:06:23:07 Richard I actually worked for a guy who came out of, Procter and Gamble. So that was my first boss at Playtex, and he talked a lot about, you know, kind of the CPG space and the learning and the development and the skill and capability that they build. And so I thought, you know, I had this opportunity come by for Robin Hood Multifoods was a recruiter, headhunter that was calling me and talk to me about this role. 00:06:23:07 - 00:06:41:22 Richard So that was kind of an interesting role and, and a good opportunity for me to kind of expand my horizon into a new category. Interesting thing about Robin Hood, again, that was kind of my entry into CPG. But if you think about it, I was the brand manager on Robin Hood Flour. So you can't get a more commoditized business, right? 00:06:41:22 - 00:07:02:12 Richard Salt, sugar, flour those are all commodities. So to really understand the category and how to create value in a highly commoditized category was huge learning for me. And, and it was a lot of fun, actually, at the same time. And we had a really good run on Robin Hood Flour. The brand had a great success and proven that marketing does, you know, deliver value, especially in a highly commoditized category like that. 00:07:02:12 - 00:07:07:11 Richard Right. Brand is everything. So learned a lot there. And then obviously applied that learning as I progressed. 00:07:07:13 - 00:07:14:09 Alison And you went on to spend the bulk of your career in CPG. So what were the keys to your advancement and success? 00:07:14:11 - 00:07:35:11 Richard Yeah. Coming back to what I said earlier, you know, my curiosity, my explorer archetype, really kind of wanted to understand and discover new opportunities to build value in a business or value in a brand. Those, I'd say, would be my key success factors as I move through my career. Also, I was known as the "just do it" guy. 00:07:35:13 - 00:07:57:06 Richard In other words, I wasn't afraid to to do things and try things and not afraid to make mistakes. I always had a strong bias to action. Thankfully, I did more things right than wrong so that, that contributed to my success as well, but clearly made a lot of mistakes in my career as well and learned from those mistakes and then applied that learning to new, you know, to new activity moving forward. 00:07:57:08 - 00:08:13:05 Alison The "just do it" guy is so true of how I think of you. And that's a great personal brand. Is it also a part of why you went through really experience to three international assignments, starting with Malaysia, then India and then back to Malaysia? How did the initial opportunity for that arise? 00:08:13:07 - 00:08:44:21 Richard I was hired to Wrigley as a new products manager. So new brand matters, new products manager. And the first brand or product they worked on was a brand that Canadians will know. It's called Excel, right? Excel. Accelerate your breath. Excel. Okay, so that wasn't even a brand at the time. It was a concept. They had a they had a product concept, was a xylitol product that had long lasting flavour duration, but no brand at the time and really kind of no brand positioning, no concept, nothing. 00:08:44:21 - 00:09:03:22 Richard So I was hired as a new brand manager, and that got me a lot of exposure to the folks in Chicago. So the R&D team in Chicago and the development team in Chicago, as well as the marketing team obviously were sort of in North American marketing team because Canada was the first market to be considering this new product, and so we had to create a whole brand around it. 00:09:03:22 - 00:09:27:04 Richard So as a result of that, I got some exposure and I was doing a sales meeting in Huntsville and Bill Wrigley Jr., so the son of Mr. Wrigley we called him, the son of the owner was responsible for Canada. The president of Canada reported to Bill Wrigley Jr. He happened to be at this meeting, and I just happened to talk to him and said, hey, listen Bill, and I had gotten connected with him prior, obviously, given the Excel project. 00:09:27:06 - 00:09:50:14 Richard And I said, listen, if you're ever interested in or need any help international, because he was responsible for international markets, then I'd be happy to help. And literally within two weeks I was on a plane to India. I had to renew my passport and get a visa and all that stuff within two weeks. I was on a plane to India to work on a marketing and sales feasibility study. 00:09:50:14 - 00:10:09:17 Richard You know, is it a market that Wrigley should enter? And if they entered, how would they enter from a sales and from a marketing standpoint? And then that moved on to me being part of a bigger team of supply chain and procurement and HR, to get to a final point where we recommended that we should enter India and here's how we should enter. 00:10:09:17 - 00:10:29:00 Richard And then I was selected to be the managing director of India. So it's called Wrigley India Private Limited. So I was part of the team, the guy that was said to set up the business and run the business. So that's how I got into international. And again, I was a new brand new product manager. Not a lot of experience at all at general management. 00:10:29:00 - 00:10:43:09 Richard So they wanted to give me some general management experience. And that's how I ended up in Malaysia. Malaysia was a small country where I could hone my skills and be trained to be a general manager prior to going into a larger opportunity in India. 00:10:43:10 - 00:11:09:21 Alison There's so much I love about this story, including creating your own opportunities, you don't ask you don't get, and also going internationally from the culture of Canada to Malaysia. There was obviously a big change, that culture shock, and it's challenging from a professional perspective. But you also have a wife, young family. So I'd love you to share with our listeners what were some of the challenges, both personally and professionally, in making those moves? 00:11:09:23 - 00:11:30:14 Richard Professionally, there weren't a lot of challenges. You know, because you work in an international organization and, you know, you get the support from the international teams as well. I'd say personally, certainly, you know, having great support from my wife, Sheila, and she rallied around it and thought, great opportunity to experience a new culture or experience a new country and, you know, have the kids experience a new, you know, a new country as well. 00:11:30:14 - 00:11:46:05 Richard At the same time, thinking about the the positives of the opportunity, I think this is really important, right? Thinking about the positives of the opportunity. There's always going to be challenges, especially making, you know, physical moves like that with as a family. But there's way more positives than there are negatives, not just from a career perspective, from a family, 00:11:46:05 - 00:12:05:14 Richard And I had to move a lot of people internationally in my career, right? Hire people from Canada or move them to Germany, or hire people from Germany or move, you know, move them to the UK. And I had so many times, you present an opportunity, then they go back to their family, say, hey, listen, I have this opportunity to move to, you know, move to China. 00:12:05:15 - 00:12:20:01 Richard Are you going to be okay with it? I know it's going to be tough. I know it's going to be hard for the children to move at this age. Right? So I had to do a lot of coaching. Here's what you want to do. You want to go back and say, I have this exciting opportunity, this is going to be outstanding. You're going to meet a lot of new people. 00:12:20:01 - 00:12:40:09 Richard We're going to be able to travel to a lot of new countries. You're going to experience, you know, a lot of diversity and a lot of learning. How you present it to your family, importantly, you know, if you've got children in the family as well, it's critically important. So yeah, I've always looked at the glass half full, half full leader and look at the positives about making international moves like that. 00:12:40:11 - 00:12:49:04 Richard And they were great. I mean I think of my kids today and the experiences they had, you know, moving through multiple countries and schooling and people they've met, they've got friends kind of all over the world. 00:12:49:06 - 00:12:56:22 Alison So, Richard, a lot of your career was spent internationally. You were clearly very successful in those roles. What do you attribute your success to? 00:12:57:00 - 00:13:18:17 Richard Again, a couple of comments I made earlier? One is around my curiosity and really kind of learning and understanding the different markets and the the environments that I was working in. Culture of the environment. So being super adaptable and obviously collaborating well with teams in the local markets as well as, as well as international teams that I was working with and then really recognizing the quality of the teams that I worked with. 00:13:18:18 - 00:13:38:12 Richard And, you know, not being a guy that just came in and thought he knew everything, right. I think it's a big problem that I've seen where, you know, you're hired into a new international market, and you know it all. I walked in thinking I knew nothing and working with the team to discover and explore and work with the team effectively to create value and and build the business over time. 00:13:38:12 - 00:14:02:08 Richard So I'd say that was probably my biggest strength is kind of that cultural understanding, if you will. You know, business culture is kind of similar around the world, but understanding the people culture within a market. I had an interesting point in my career. I was the president of the European Petcare business for Mars Incorporated. I was responsible for 16 markets, we had about 4200 associates in 14 factories. 00:14:02:08 - 00:14:23:09 Richard So markets like France and Switzerland and Austria, Germany, etc.. You know, when we had leadership meetings, you've got all these different cultures in that meeting. And the French culture, of course, is very different than the German culture, than the Spanish culture, and really kind of understanding how to work in that multicultural environment and valuing, you know, those multicultural environments as well. 00:14:23:09 - 00:14:39:23 Richard I'd say that that's where I was, you know, quite successful in my career. Made a lot of mistakes of course. I remember I got some good coaching from one of my leaders at the time. We were in an annual planning meeting. We called it Connect to Grow, where all the markets came in and presented their plans. France came in and Germany came in, and Spain came in. 00:14:40:00 - 00:14:56:00 Richard I made a comment. I think it was the French, it was the French team, about look, you missed your plan the last couple of years. Why do you guys think this is a plan you're going to beat this year? And, I said it probably a little bit more directly than I just said it here. And then I got a little coaching moment after which, Richard, it's not what you say. 00:14:56:00 - 00:15:05:08 Richard It's how you say it. So I remember that today, and I think about that as I, sort of move through my career and to different, you know, different cultures and different situations. 00:15:05:10 - 00:15:28:14 Alison That's such great advice for anyone listening in. A great reminder for me as well. The other thing that really resonates for me that you've shared a few times is you're open to making mistakes. The only way you can stretch your thinking and really advance the business is recognize there's a lot you don't know, regardless of how senior you are, and that we're going to make mistakes along the way and making it safe for you and your teams to make those mistakes. 00:15:28:14 - 00:15:46:06 Alison Learn quickly and then ensure that the same mistakes aren't happening again. Now, I'm sure we've got listeners who are very interested in following in your international pathway, would be very open to working in global roles. So what advice would you give anyone that's listening in pursuing those roles? 00:15:46:08 - 00:16:07:22 Richard Well, look, I think first of all, Canadians are really well positioned to be successful internationally. We're really well positioned, because as a...
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EP49 - How Sleep Country Canada Transformed Sleep Culture with Nuno Bamberg
07/08/2025
EP49 - How Sleep Country Canada Transformed Sleep Culture with Nuno Bamberg
What does it take to transform how an entire country thinks about sleep? In this episode, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Nuno Bamberg, Senior Vice President, Brand and Marketing at Sleep Country Canada. Nuno is the Brazilian-born, Canadian-made marketing leader behind Sleep Country Canada's cultural transformation. From his family's creative agency roots in Brazil to building brand portfolios that balance legacy with bold innovation, Nuno shares why curiosity beats caution, how to fail fast and iterate faster, and what Sleep Country's acquisition of UK's Simba Sleep reveals about scaling values across borders. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:08 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:10 - 00:00:43:06 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a story that in many ways embodies the modern Canadian dream. From a 16-year old Brazilian exchange student in small town Ontario to the marketing executive who's transforming one of Canada's most beloved brands. I'm thrilled to welcome Nuno Bamberg, Senior Vice President of Brand and Marketing at Sleep Country Canada, to our podcast today. 00:00:43:08 - 00:01:07:22 Alison Nuno oversees marketing strategies for Sleep Country, Dormez-Vous, Bloom, Endy, Hush, Casper and Silk and Snow, as well as the new retail store, the rest. His Canadian story began at age 16 as an exchange student in Bracebridge, Ontario, an experience that planted the seeds for his eventual emigration to Canada with his family as an adult. This was driven by his belief in both Canadian values as well as the opportunities our country represents. 00:01:08:00 - 00:01:37:06 Alison Like me, Nuno started his career at agencies before moving to the brand side. Before he joined Sleep Country Canada and spent nine years as the SVP, Chief Content and Production Officer at Publicis Group Canada, where he helped nearly double the agency's size while working with iconic brands like The Home Depot, Rogers and Canadian Tire. Since making the move to Sleep Country in 2023, Nuno has been transforming how Canadians think about sleep, elevating it well beyond a commodity purchase to a critical component of our health and wellness. 00:01:37:08 - 00:02:06:20 Alison Today, we'll explore how Nuno is driving this cultural shift around sleep and wellness, and redefining what it means to honour legacy while embracing bold innovations in today's dynamic and, at times, very challenging retail landscape. This week, his team launched their latest innovation, and Nuno will share a bit about what led to the bold new approach. So whether you're interested in the agency to client career transition, or how an established Canadian brand can innovate while honouring their legacy, today's conversation promises to both be inspiring and actionable. 00:02:06:22 - 00:02:09:01 Alison Without further ado, welcome, Nuno. 00:02:09:03 - 00:02:18:01 Nuno Thank you. And for the CMA and CMA Connect team for having me today. I'm excited to be here sharing a little bit about myself, my journey to Canada, and my professional experience in Canada. 00:02:18:03 - 00:02:25:20 Alison So, you know, I would love to start by having you share what brought you from Brazil to Canada originally, and why you chose Canada over so many other countries. 00:02:25:22 - 00:02:53:15 Nuno The first time I came to Canada, as you mentioned, it was when I was 16 years of age. And frankly, at that time, I was really focused on going somewhere where I didn't know anyone. I know it was a little weird, but that's really what I wanted. I wanted to go somewhere where I had no family, no friends, no safety net, and that would force me just to get out of my comfort zone and quite frankly, immerse myself fully into a new culture, a new language, daily habits, daily rituals, and an entire new way of life, if you will. 00:02:53:16 - 00:03:10:14 Nuno And I've always been that way. I always been incredibly curious about people in general. Like I always, as a kid, saw myself observing someone down the street and kind of pictured in my brain, what do they come from? What do they do? What's their background? And so I want to live that myself, because I had family in the U.S., that ruled out the U.S. all together. 00:03:10:16 - 00:03:33:22 Nuno I really wanted us, you know, clean slate, not a soft landing. And so I didn't want to fall back into the Portuguese, nor, because I didn't know English all that well, I wanted to fall back into my comfort zone. And so Canada became an obvious choice because it allowed me to grow, to expand, find a new version of myself if that makes sense, while also being able to encounter a new culture, which was something fairly new to me. 00:03:34:00 - 00:03:54:08 Nuno And what quickly stood out to me was the Canadian people. As a 16 year old going to Bracebridge at that time, there was no Google, there was no bing, there was Ask Jeeves. I knew nothing about Bracebridge, nor Canada, and within the week I knew everyone. And so the incredible kindness and open-mindedness with which Canadians received me at that time kind of stuck with me. 00:03:54:08 - 00:04:10:16 Nuno And so the second time I thought about leaving Brazil, fast forward to 2015, we had just had our second child a year before, and when my wife and I were in the decision of do we want to raise a family outside of Brazil, we have family in the U.S., so that felt like a natural place to go to. And my wife had never been to Canada before. 00:04:10:16 - 00:04:27:12 Nuno So I said to her, let me talk to you about Canada a little bit and the experience of what it is to go to a country where you know no one and no one knows you, but you are incredibly welcome and well-received, despite of your background and your own walk of life. And so we made the decision to come to Canada together. 00:04:27:12 - 00:04:50:06 Nuno I've been here now for ten years, and there's something about Canada kind of stays with you and has stayed with me since I was 16. And most importantly, quite frankly it molded me in many, many ways. So I always say that I was Brazilian-born and Canadian-made is because in many ways, the parts got assembled in Canada and made me a better human and I would say a better marketer, hopefully from all my experiences in Canada. 00:04:50:08 - 00:05:09:00 Alison That's an incredibly brave move as an adult. At 16, it's one of those pivotal times where we're all sort of figuring ourselves out. So for you to pick up and leave everything you knew and transplant yourself deliberately in small town Canada was very brave and certainly speaks to, I suspect, part of what has made you such a successful marketer as well. 00:05:09:01 - 00:05:23:03 Alison And then when you moved with your family to Toronto, I grew up in small town Ontario, so I like to think that we're the most welcoming part of Canada, Toronto isn't always as welcoming, but I'd love to hear what your experience and your family's experience was coming to Toronto. 00:05:23:05 - 00:05:45:10 Nuno That's an incredible observation. Yes, I think moving to a small town, Bracebridge, at 16, was a lot easier in many ways than it was moving to Canada with an entire family and different pressures too, because when I came, my wife didn't speak the language. She was leaving behind a pretty successful career in advertising in Brazil. There were a lot more baggages and pressures that came with the move itself. 00:05:45:12 - 00:06:09:00 Nuno What made it unique to being Toronto versus that small town Canada, to your point, was while it was, everything was very foreign to my wife and family at the same time, everything was very accessible. So having access to different cultures and most importantly, actually a little piece of Brazil already existed in Canada. There's a part of Toronto where it's a lot of Portuguese bakeries, Portuguese grocery shops, Brazilian grocery shops, Brazilian bakeries and restaurants. 00:06:09:02 - 00:06:30:18 Nuno So that helped her get acclimated to Canada a lot easier than not. But certainly, to your point, took a lot longer to get accustomed to the life in Canada at a big city where you don't have that neighbour just down the street, you can knock on the door of. It made it a little harder for us. But still, what I can say remain the same was the open-mindedness that Canadians have. 00:06:30:20 - 00:06:49:00 Nuno And I think that's because of the very diverse cultural background that we all have in Canada remain the same. People were still very welcoming to the fact that she was learning the language, my kids were learning the language. We're all acclimated to the culture. The open-mindedness was still the same. The access to people was a bit more far removed because it was a bigger city. 00:06:49:02 - 00:06:57:03 Nuno But people's innate open-mindedness and kindness were still pretty much the same as it were many, many years ago when I was in small town Bracebridge. 00:06:57:05 - 00:07:17:12 Alison So as Canadians, we'd like to pride ourselves on being open-minded, welcoming and being a cultural mosaic. So for me, as a longstanding Canadian, it's really rewarding to hear that you, as someone newer to our country, found that both in your teen years, but also bringing your your family back to Canada ten years ago, so... happy 10th anniversary, by the way. 00:07:17:16 - 00:07:19:23 Nuno Thank you. Thank you. I'm very proud to be here. 00:07:20:01 - 00:07:30:01 Alison When we first met, you had mentioned that you were born into the creative agency world with family that worked in the business in Brazil. How do you think that foundation really influenced your career path? 00:07:30:03 - 00:07:55:10 Nuno Well great question. Yeah, creativity and creative in general ran deep into my household. My dad and my older brother are both in the business back home, and not only are they in the business, they led the business in many, many ways in the sense that both of them founded agencies themselves, ran them very successfully, as well as had some very successful large holding company careers as well, establishing themselves in top of the mind game in Brazil, if you will. 00:07:55:12 - 00:08:14:14 Nuno But the biggest difference what it was and was really interesting is that they were very separated and in very different ends of the spectrum from an advertising perspective. My father was always the relationship type of guy who knew through art, craft, words and communication how to touch the human heart. And he was really the art in the science. 00:08:14:14 - 00:08:32:06 Nuno And my brother was the science in the art. He was always very much data, how to understand structures, technology. In the early days of the bubble of the internet in Brazil, he was already at the forefront of that. So growing up in that world, I guess, gave me this duality that was very interesting of how I interact with the world. 00:08:32:06 - 00:08:53:10 Nuno But in advertising specifically, where I look at creativity with rigour, I look at storytelling, but with strategy and this notion of leveraging data, which was the language of businesses, how business are built around, but using then storytelling as a language of humans, and how you bring the two together to tell more, more powerful, engaging and important stories, if that makes sense. 00:08:53:12 - 00:09:13:15 Nuno And ultimately, what I feel is that because creative and creativity was such a part of my upbringing and also runs in my veins day to day, that allows me today in this world that I'm in, to actually put the work second, if that makes sense. Meaning, of course, the creative expression of the work at the end of the day is how we as a marketing team at Sleep Country addresses ourselves to the world. 00:09:13:17 - 00:09:44:22 Nuno But what I focus on today is actually empowering and nurturing the people behind the work, and trusting that by ensuring that they feel recognized, seen, heard, and incentivized and most importantly, greatly appreciated, that the work becomes an intelligent expression of all that they've built together to that point. And so I think I've gotten that benefit of being raised with creativity and making creativity not something I'm chasing, but rather a part of empowering people to deliver on it naturally, almost organically, if that makes sense. 00:09:45:00 - 00:10:06:06 Alison Beyond making sense, that's the perfect recipe in many ways to succeed in marketing today. Equal measures of the right and left brain, appreciating that we are only successful as the teams and relationships and people that we mentor and help grow. So I hope you have had the chance to thank your parents for the incredible foundation that they've given you, as well as a passion for the career. 00:10:06:08 - 00:10:26:12 Nuno Very true. My father and my mother both, and my dad even more so, were very maniacally focused on us learning different languages and knowledge because especially growing up in Brazil, their whole schtick always was, if we leave you with any sort of structure, we don't know, but if we leave you knowledge, we'll leave you access. And so that has stuck with me forever, and it's a way of guiding my life today. 00:10:26:14 - 00:10:43:08 Alison We also really bonded on sharing our agency experience, and we both really loved the agency pace and thrived in it. So what ultimately convinced you to make the move to client side? And since making the move, what's been the biggest surprise after 25 years in agencies? 00:10:43:10 - 00:11:04:20 Nuno That is so true, like and honestly, when I say I thrived in the agency pace, I really did. The pace, the pressure the magic of building something brand new from literally nothing. I loved it, and frankly, I never thought of myself as a quote unquote client. I just didn't. It wasn't the cards for me. My dad was a client, but I never really saw that side of him. 00:11:05:02 - 00:11:36:17 Nuno My brother was never a client, so I was just an agency guy. But through my conversations with Stewart, who was my client for nearly four years before he became my boss, that's our CEO Stewart Schaefer, through our many conversations, and we spoke for about a year, there was specifically one moment towards the end of our conversation before I signed and moved over, in which he looked at me and he said, your function is going to be marketing, but your true role is helping me reshape the business along with your SOT peers. And having worked with Stewart as a client for so many years, 00:11:36:17 - 00:11:56:07 Nuno at that point, I knew exactly what that meant in his eyes. And so when he said that, I knew it wasn't just a job offer, it was a calling. It was a very unique opportunity to be a part of reshaping something that was already successful into something even bigger, that had a longer lasting effect. And that, to me, was the way to seal the deal, if that makes sense. 00:11:56:09 - 00:12:20:17 Nuno And what surprised me the most, quite frankly, Alison, is that I saw a lot more depth than I thought. Having spent 20 plus years on the agency side, on the outside, the brand side of the business may have seemed to me for the longest time, that it was all about structure and access layers and unnecessary complexity. And honestly, sometimes it is, I think as brands and businesses, we have to look at that at times too, and and admit it. 00:12:20:19 - 00:12:55:07 Nuno But what I also realize is there's a lot of purpose behind it. I found a lot of true purpose behind every action. And what I mean by that is I found myself all of a sudden no longer looking to shape ideas, but rather shape outcomes. And that was a very different way of looking at things that surprised me quite a lot. And quite frankly, just the ability of opening up your world to an entire new learning set; supply chain, logistics, organizational design, product design, so on and so forth, and utilizing all of that knowledge to truly serve consumers and the audience in the other end, tailored to the needs and wants they have 00:12:55:07 - 00:12:57:18 Nuno with more intent and meaning than I had before. 00:12:57:20 - 00:13:04:04 Alison So building on that, what advice would you give to other marketing professionals who are considering making the move from agency to client? 00:13:04:06 - 00:13:22:15 Nuno Yeah, that's the toughest one, because in Brazil we have a saying that says, if advice was any good, people would sell it to you. So take this from a very honest, truthful, personal experience perspective. But what I want to say is the reason why it took me so long to make the decisions, that I wanted to make sure I knew the why. 00:13:22:17 - 00:13:41:10 Nuno I had incredible clarity on, as to why am I making this transition. And at the end of the day, I didn't want to leave the agency life because I was tired or because the pace was too intense. That's kind of obvious. But was the pace intense because of me or because of the environment? So I need to go searching for that answer. 00:13:41:12 - 00:13:58:07 Nuno And at the end of the day, what I decided upon is that I wanted to leave because I was ready to have a different kind of impact to my career, a different one than the one that I had up until that point. And so what I can say is that brand side isn't easier, it's just a very different kind of heart, if that makes sense. 00:13:58:09 - 00:14:16:01 Nuno All the wins are a lot slower, but they're also deeper. You will learn to think beyond the brief itself, you know, think about all the other things that entices a product to the consumer, be it operations, supply chain, org design, product development and so much more that you didn't touch before. And now it's part of your world. 00:14:16:03 - 00:14:38:08 Nuno And that all opens up to a lot of learnings. And so at first, you're going to feel like that's far removed from your experience. You may have even a little bit of imposter syndrome. That's okay. I personally felt that. But if you're incredibly curious, collaborative and open and ready to grow in different ways and experience different things, it's going to be one of the most rewarding experiences you could possibly have. 00:14:38:08 - 00:14:56:20 Nuno At least it was for me. And once you get there, though, what I would say is do not lose your agency instinct because the agency instinct of being biased for action and having resilience, of having grit and having hustle and an incredible "can do" mentality, more often than not, is what brands need to move forward. 00:14:57:00 - 00:15:21:12 Alison That is absolutely excellent advice. Well said. So in many ways, the retail industry, of all the client side opportunities, retail is one of the faster-paced, challenging and ever-changing. We've certainly in Canada see some long standing retailers, HBC being the obvious most recent example, ultimately fail. Sleep Country is absolutely bucking the trend, hugely successful for 30 years. 00:15:21:12 - 00:15:29:08 Alison While many other retailers haven't been, so what do you think some of the attributes are for Sleep Country's sustained success in Canada? 00:15:29:10 - 00:16:01:02 Nuno I think a big part of it, quite frankly, is this entrepreneurial culture, mindset and spirit that's been with us from day one until now. The company was built, be it Christine Magee at Sleep Country, be it Dormez-Vous by Stewart Schaefer, by entrepreneurs, by heart. And so because of that mindset in nature, we have always been encouraged to believe in the power of curiosity, innovation, listening deeply to our customers and knowing to never be afraid to try something new. 00:16:01:04 - 00:16:35:19 Nuno And that mindset hasn't really changed, in fact, has been evolved further, where we live...
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EP48 - Canada's First Young Lions Design Gold with Zoë Boudreau and Jesse Shaw
06/27/2025
EP48 - Canada's First Young Lions Design Gold with Zoë Boudreau and Jesse Shaw
On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, speaks with Canadians Zoë Boudreau, Associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, Senior Motion Designer, both from Rethink, about winning Canada's first Young Lions Design Competition gold at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. They reveal how a challenging 24-hour brief on Indian comic book history—completely outside their expertise—pushed them to implement integrated speech bubbles and motion systems that no other team explored. Hear how their complementary skills, iterative approach, and ability to maintain humour under extreme pressure turned unfamiliar constraints into gold-winning creativity. See their Young Lion gold-winning work . 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:01 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:03 - 00:00:48:05 Alison Welcome back to CMA Connect. Today we're bringing you a truly special conversation straight from the heart of the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Every year, the Young Lions competition challenges the brightest emerging talent from around the world, really pushing them to innovate under incredible pressure. This year, on the last day of what was already a very inspiring week, Canada truly shone on that global stage. 00:00:48:07 - 00:01:09:03 Alison So I am thrilled to be joined today by the talented young Canadian creative team, Zoe Boudreau, an associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, a senior motion designer who not only competed but brought home the coveted Gold Lion for design. So I don't normally do a standing ovation in the beginning of a podcast, but guys, you totally deserve a standing ovation. 00:01:09:03 - 00:01:12:07 Alison So super well done. 00:01:12:09 - 00:01:13:11 Jesse Thank you so much. 00:01:13:13 - 00:01:14:07 Zoe Thank you. 00:01:14:12 - 00:01:35:11 Alison Now this incredible achievement really is a testament to your vision, certainly a testament to your hard work. It also highlights the important role of The Globe and Mail, a Canadian Marketing Association member, who champion and lead the Canadian Young Lions competition here in Canada and are really playing an important role for helping foster the next generation of creative leaders right here at home. 00:01:35:17 - 00:01:46:08 Alison So to all our listeners, get ready to be inspired as we hear directly from Canada's winning team about their journey to gold. Zoe and Jesse. Huge welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. Zoe Thank you. 00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:17 Jesse Thank you so much. 00:01:47:19 - 00:01:56:15 Alison The first question I'm going to ask is, who was the first person you reached out to back home once you found out you'd want? Zoe, do you want to go first? 00:01:56:17 - 00:02:10:19 Zoe Ooh. Honestly, I think it was probably my boyfriend. I think was the first one, but he was dead asleep, so he did not find out until the morning. But that was definitely the first person I texted. that night. 00:02:10:19 - 00:02:15:11 Alison That nine hour time zone wouldn't have worked to your advantage on that one, coming from Kelowna. And Jesse, what about you? 00:02:15:16 - 00:02:41:05 Jesse Yeah. It was. I mean, I'd like to say it was my wife, but, no, it was my mom because she texted me, like, five minutes after we won. Like, trying to act really casual like she hadn't been awake all night. Saying, like, oh, have you heard anything? So I FaceTimed or just with the, with the award, and it was fun watching her, like, recognize in real time what she was reading, because I think it was exactly, it was like one in the morning or something. 00:02:41:05 - 00:02:45:21 Alison So I think your wife is can understand that. 00:02:45:23 - 00:02:52:18 Jesse Yeah, she, she, she woke up to the message and she seemed pretty excited when, when she found out. But yeah. 00:02:52:20 - 00:03:17:13 Alison That is very cool. Well, needless to say, taking home a Gold Lion in design at Cannes is a monumental achievement, especially in the Young Lions competition, which has a very intense 24-hour brief. So huge congratulations, and I'd love you to walk me through the initial moments when you first saw the brief through to coming up with the award winning idea and executing it under such an incredibly tight time constraints. 00:03:17:14 - 00:03:19:11 Alison So who wants to kick it off? 00:03:19:12 - 00:03:40:08 Zoe Yeah, I can kick off like the brief aspect. We were in the this area. We were like eating, because we knew that was something we needed to do before getting into the competition. And we got briefed at 4:00, but we got the briefs sent to us, I think it was at 3:30. Yeah. And we forgot about that, that it was going to be sent to us. 00:03:40:08 - 00:04:07:14 Zoe So as we were eating, it got sent through our email and we're like, the brief! We should probably read this. And we really were like, honestly, I was kind of like surprised or like, really like, scared of the brief. The brief was really tricky. And I think that Jesse and I were just talking about it, and my face was like, oh no, this is like a really hard brief. 00:04:07:14 - 00:04:29:00 Zoe But we got some really good advice from one of our other Canadian Young Lions saying that if it's a hard breathe, it's actually a huge opportunity because everyone's going to see it as a hard brief. So you can just like go hard. If that's the case. So that was pretty intense at the the up front because we were like, oh, this is actually going to be like an all-nighter. 00:04:29:01 - 00:04:49:01 Jesse Yeah I think yeah. So I think it's called the solarium, like the cafe, and you know, really the memory is just having, you know, the, the hot sun just beating down on us and really thinking like, okay, this is, yeah. This isn't going to be fun. This is, this is not going to be a cakewalk. 00:04:49:03 - 00:05:11:20 Jesse And I think kind of recognizing like in that moment. Yeah. That, you know, we got in here representing Canada and that it wasn't going to get to trust that we were here on our own merit. But, you know, you see something like a brief as maybe outside of our boundaries as it was. And yeah, kind of recognizing that we're going to need to dig deep. 00:05:11:22 - 00:05:31:22 Jesse You know, it's it's fun talking about it now, but I was definitely texting a few people, right when we got it. You can definitely see that the decline in like, sanity and just the stress really flow out. So I just want to, I just want to say I appreciate it. Everyone that had to listen to me freak out online. 00:05:32:00 - 00:05:44:02 Alison Well, and the, being in the solarium, something like 32 degree heat, sunshine takes the whole concept of pressure cooker to a whole other level. Now what was it about the brief that made it so tricky and challenging? 00:05:44:04 - 00:06:21:20 Zoe I'd have to say that, well, the brief was making an exhibition in India on Indian comic books. But not just that. It's like the history of storytelling or visual storytelling that leads to comic books. So there were so many layers as part of the brief. And on top of that, we had to name it. And I think the naming part was the thing that we were really freaked out about because we're not copywriters by trade, but now we like to pretend that we are because we we, 00:06:21:22 - 00:06:26:14 Zoe I think we came up with a pretty sick name. Yeah. Go ahead. Jesse. 00:06:26:16 - 00:06:27:00 Jesse Oh, no, no. 00:06:27:03 - 00:06:54:11 Jesse No, I mean, it's it's exactly that I think in the Canadian for the Canadian portion of the Young Lions competition, the brief was around a biking event. That was something like a lot of, you know, experience with attending bike events. It was a space that I was really comfortable and interested in. So we kind of felt, you know, leading into that, that maybe we got lucky or that, you know, the things just sort of aligned for us to really hit the ground running there. 00:06:54:13 - 00:07:23:06 Jesse And that just wasn't the case. You know, unfortunately, just recognizing our own paths that just didn't have a ton of cultural touch points to the history of sequential storytelling in India, so that this wasn't going to be something that we just luck into. It was going to be a lot of work. But definitely, you know, on the other side of that, realizing that it was, you know, a super cool and just feel super fortunate for having that opportunity to learn about the space because that was something that we had no idea about going into it. 00:07:23:06 - 00:07:31:16 Jesse And on the other side now, it's something that I think during the presentation portion, we were like genuinely enthusiastic about championing it because it's incredible. 00:07:31:22 - 00:07:46:18 Alison Well, that's such a great testament to the profession, because there are times, I've been agency side, I've been brand side, and there are times where you get a client, or you get a brief. It's like, oh, perfect. I have a passion for this. I have an interest for this. But most of the time it's like, okay, that's fascinating. 00:07:46:18 - 00:08:04:07 Alison I don't know much about the market. I don't know much about the brand. I don't know much about the consumer and how you have to dig in and learn, and the fact that you dug in and learned in a very, very compressed time period and emerge with gold, that has to be even more gratifying. So huge, huge congratulations. 00:08:04:13 - 00:08:05:10 Jesse Appreciate that. 00:08:05:12 - 00:08:18:17 Alison So you've shared a bit about the significant creative hurdle that you were encountering with the brief. I'd love to hear, how did you leverage each other's strengths or challenge each other's thinking to overcome it? And Jesse, why don't you kick things off? 00:08:18:18 - 00:08:43:22 Jesse Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think one thing that is maybe unique to our partnership, it was because we were put together as a team under the recommendation of our boss, Hans. A lot of teams designed specifically in Young Lions will be put together because, you know, they're two graphic designers. It's a graphic design competition so, you know, why wouldn't you want two people that are, you know, trained in the same discipline, working together? 00:08:43:22 - 00:09:05:13 Jesse I think what's unique about our partnership is Zoe's trained in graphic design and I'm a motion designer. So when we approach, thinking, and approach, I guess conceptual identity thinking, we're coming at it from two different angles. I think in the moment there's things that, you know, maybe I'll think are obvious or Zoe we will think is obvious, and maybe the other person misses that. 00:09:05:13 - 00:09:35:22 Jesse And I think it's nice because it's a bit more of a holistic approach to identity building that other teams, you know, maybe, might not have. So almost immediately, you know, we're thinking about a system larger than maybe what's on the brief. And I think in doing so, we're able to kind of like go big, recognize all the opportunities and then hone it down to sort of sort of what is the core idea and then hit the ground there. 00:09:36:00 - 00:09:38:08 Jesse And I think that's kind of how we started. 00:09:38:10 - 00:09:54:15 Alison It is super helpful to have different perspectives. And to your point, like really, it really helped broaden your approach and your thinking. Now, Zoe, you mentioned earlier that you also now can count yourselves as copywriters because part of this was coming up with the name and you said it was a sick name. So what was the name? 00:09:56:11 - 00:10:20:15 Zoe Yeah, the name was IN FRAME, and I actually have to give credit to Jesse because he came up with this, in the sense that IN is like the shorthand for India and then frames is kind of like the device that are used within comic books, like the paneling and then the whole system is based around bringing Indian comic books centre frame. 00:10:20:17 - 00:10:35:09 Zoe So then we have the comics and the, the artwork living within the IN as a framing device. So it's like this kind of full circle kind of identity within that. So that, that's definitely goes out to Jesse's IN. 00:10:35:11 - 00:10:35:23 Jesse I mean, 00:10:36:00 - 00:11:04:05 Jesse I'll say it's a, it's a 50/50 thing. I, when we first got the brief, when we left the Palais and we were walking back to our hotel. Yeah, we just started brainstorming. I think it's not a uncommon thing for people to recommend walking and brainstorming as like a really fruitful method for the idea building. And one of the ways they were defining this history of comics and visual storytelling was referred to as sequential storytelling. 00:11:04:07 - 00:11:20:04 Jesse So I really locked on to just, you know, how many, what sort of phrases does it, sequence or sequential come up in? So I think I had a working title called IN Sequence that was, I think maybe what we, and then we split apart when we got to the hotel for about an hour to do some brainstorming. 00:11:20:04 - 00:11:32:09 Jesse And then when I came back, Zoe, you were the one that had mentioned that you'd seen frame come up so much. So I think from there we kind of, it was a, it was a, it was a team effort. I did not want to take full credit for that. 00:11:32:10 - 00:11:34:22 Zoe One word each. 00:11:35:00 - 00:11:39:19 Jesse Exactly! And actually if we're going by word, by a letter count, you actually did more work. 00:11:39:19 - 00:11:42:20 Zoe Letter count, yeah. 00:11:42:22 - 00:12:01:10 Alison And for our listeners, I know they're going to want to see the work, so we will link in the comments so that they can actually see your Gold Lion and your work as well. So looking back at the work, with just a little bit of distance, what's one element or specific design choice that you believe really elevated your entry above the rest? 00:12:01:12 - 00:12:29:16 Zoe I think there's two pieces. There is a moment where we were dealing with like the system, and we had this framing device that we were excited about, but then Jesse discovered that underneath the N, there's this notch. And what happens is that there was an ability or an opportunity to put a speech bubble underneath it, which is very common within comic book storytelling, is the the speech bubble on and all that kind of stuff. 00:12:29:16 - 00:12:59:22 Zoe And we had this opportunity to put the artwork within the framing device, but then also have them talking. And so we were able to have the characters speak within the system, which felt like really playful and interesting and, and no one else used speech bubbles at all, which I was surprised within any of the other work. So I think that was our first unlocking moment of making something really interesting and robust within a system. 00:13:00:04 - 00:13:23:05 Zoe And then, we were the only like, from what I could tell the team that had motion or it had a robust motion system. So I think that was like the cherry on top was having this system that had something that was interesting with the speech bubble and then layering on top this like very great motion system as an aside. 00:13:23:07 - 00:13:53:12 Jesse Doing the motion system, like, that was super fun. And I do, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree that is definitely maybe a differentiation point in comparison. But I do think our ability to work and iterate quickly just allowed us to sort of spin out so many different options so quickly that, you know, then when we were presenting to the judges, we weren't feeling like, you know, this is the, this is the idea we came up with 11 this morning and it's the best thing that we could do. 00:13:53:14 - 00:14:18:12 Jesse I think an approach that our company Rethink really champions, that our bosses really champion, is this idea of, you know, 1 or 100. So you don't know if your first idea or your hundredth idea is the best one. And the only way to find out is to make 100 ideas. So in that, we were, you know, able to kind of build out, I don't want to say we didn't do 100 ideas, but I think, you know, we we went easy on ourselves. 00:14:18:12 - 00:14:43:11 Jesse It was 24 hours. So, but there were, you know, multiple different inroads. And I think recognizing pretty early on just because of our, the speed that we're able to work out, that the idea that we were presenting wasn't the only thing we'd come up with. It was the best idea that we'd come up with. So there's a confidence that comes from that, and it's an approach that I don't know is reflected in other aspects of the industry. 00:14:43:13 - 00:14:45:10 Jesse So super grateful for that. 00:14:45:12 - 00:15:07:09 Alison That iterative approach certainly has served Rethink incredibly well on the 5th year, 5th year in a row, I believe, at Cannes, being the independent agency. So it's definitely serving you and the organization incredibly well. So in going through all of that iteration, how obvious was it to both of you that this idea was the winning idea? 00:15:07:11 - 00:15:26:00 Zoe I don't know if it was obvious to me at that point. I think Jesse was like, he he knew. He had the feeling. He was like, oh, we did it. We nailed it. And I don't know if I was more, not pessimistic, but like, unsure. I was like, I don't know, like this is a global stage. Like, who knows? 00:15:26:00 - 00:15:50:00 Zoe Like someone could have just like come out at it at a totally different angle and like, so I was a bit unsure. And I think it was mostly because it felt like the subject matter was just so different from what we've dealt with in the past. So it was like, I think when we were watching everyone at the, at the end, at the terrace, when they were doing the big reveal. 00:15:50:04 - 00:16:10:05 Zoe I think that's when it kind of set in. Then I was like, okay, like, maybe we have a chance and then we got shortlisted and then we're like, oh, okay, I think, I think we might have won. So that was like, it took me some time to like go around until I felt more confident with it. 00:16:10:07 - 00:16:32:06 Jesse I think I also don't want to act like I'm the not pessimistic one because, our work that we won the Canadian Division with, I was very like, basically until we submitted it, I was like, I don't see the I don't see this like it's it's interesting, but I don't see what's so good about it. So I would say we're 50/50 on... 00:16:32:08 - 00:16:52:01 Jesse And I mean that's good. I think that's you know, that's sort of, you know, having someone like a partner that's checking you in that way and pushing you. Like when we were in Cannes, that was making me advocate for the importance of what we were hitting on. The strength of the idea. You know, if someone says, you know, I don't I don't really see this, 00:16:52:03 - 00:17:19:13 Jesse That's something that you immediately, it forces you to advocate for the idea. And I know that was, you know, it really helped, even later into the presentation portion crystallize what was special in my mind about the whole thing. And the whole identity. And I think this was the case for the Canadian portion where I felt like, Zoe, you definitely had a way better vision for what it was going to be, but I was the one that was sort of saying, like, I don't see this. 00:17:19:13 - 00:17:34:05 Jesse I don't, I don't get it yet. But like I, and I think that's the thing and I think this is a great example, you know, like a good team is that, you know, I didn't see it, but I trusted you and it worked out all right. And I think you trusted me. Maybe you didn't actually, I don't know, until we won. 00:17:34:05 - 00:17:34:19 Jesse You're...
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EP47 - Cannes Lions 2025: Be Bold with Bob Park
06/20/2025
EP47 - Cannes Lions 2025: Be Bold with Bob Park
Broadcasting live from Cannes Lions 2025, CMA CEO Alison Simpson discusses Bob Park's (Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada) bold decision to increase sponsorship of Canada Soccer amid multiple scandals. The condition? Complete equality for the women's soccer program. This purpose-driven stance delivered social change (equal pay for women's soccer) and business results (75% website traffic increase), taking GE's "good things for life" mantra further as "good things for everyone." 00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:10:20 - 00:00:13:19 Video We are announcing that we are building a women's professional soccer league in Canada. GE Appliances to supporting women's soccer, it's phenomenal. It changes women's and girls' lives. 00:00:31:15 - 00:01:01:10 Bob Um, It still chokes me up. That thing, where we were faced with a real dilemma at GE. A number of the corporate partners of Canada Soccer, our governing, national soccer organization, had pulled out of sponsorship because of these, scandals and issues that were affecting the organization. But, and I had about a week to think about it. 00:01:01:12 - 00:01:25:02 Bob And obviously, from a corporate standpoint, it would make the most sense to just simply, pull our funding. We always have clauses in our contract, that say, if this happens, you can pull out. But I thought about it and I thought, about, back to our purpose. And our purpose is really, as GE Appliances, we want to support the community. 00:01:25:02 - 00:01:49:13 Bob We, our motto is "good things for life", and that means good things for everyone. How can we support Canada Soccer, which, soccer in Canada, the beautiful game in Canada and then pull out of backing financially the number one organization in the country. No matter how small it is, no matter what it is that you're doing, bring the change that you want to see in the world. 00:01:49:15 - 00:01:56:10 Bob And after that, great things happen. Thank you very much. You. 00:01:56:12 - 00:02:26:23 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a story that is literally minutes ago, fresh on the stage from the prestigious Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity. We're exploring how innovative brand partnerships are reshaping the landscape for brands and sport marketing in Canada, and also really driving social change and important differences in our community and in equity in this case. So I'm thrilled to be joined by Bob Park, Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada. 00:02:27:01 - 00:02:49:00 Alison Bob is in Cannes, where he presented as part of the Changemakers series, which has been a very inspiring session where marketers around the world that are renowned for driving important societal change and building brands and businesses have been invited to speak. And Bob, you did a phenomenal job. So thank you for representing Canada so well. Bob Thank you. Alison And now we're going to dive into some questions. 00:02:49:00 - 00:03:10:13 Alison And he's going to share, what he shared in Cannes and answer some of our questions around it. So Bob, it's an absolute a pleasure to have you with me today. Why don't you start, by talking a bit about GE Appliances Canada entered into a multi-year partnership with Canada Soccer in 2022. Now you were surprised by a big, unexpected press issue. 00:03:10:13 - 00:03:35:14 Alison And anytime you enter into a sponsorship, there's always potential that things will go awry. Yet when things went awry, you stayed through it and absolutely continue to have a partnership and evolved your approach. So it's a very inspiring story. The audience at Cannes were riveted, so I'd love you to share with our CMA Connect audience a bit about the sponsorship, what happened and why you continue to support Canada Soccer. 00:03:35:15 - 00:04:02:11 Bob I think the first thing I have to do is, go back to, our thinking process or our thought process around, sponsoring soccer in the beginning. And really what it came down to is soccer is the most participated sport in the country. And the reason for that is the barriers to entry for sports like hockey, as an example, are, are it's very expensive to send, if you have any children in hockey. 00:04:02:13 - 00:04:29:03 Bob It's an extreme, expense. Soccer is the one sport that, despite whatever your family's economic condition is, almost any family can afford to participate in. And a large percentage of of the kids and families participating in soccer are GE consumers either now or down the road. So that made a lot of sense. The other thing that we really liked about soccer is it's a very diverse sport. 00:04:29:03 - 00:04:50:11 Bob Worldwide, it is also the most participated sport in the world, and it's phenomenal how accepted it is. No matter what country you go, we're in France now, and, and it's called football here. And I was just talking to a couple of people getting off the stage of how much they loved the game. So Canada, believe it or not, the fastest growing sport is soccer. 00:04:50:11 - 00:05:11:01 Bob More people are playing soccer than ever before. Our major league teams are getting much more attention, and our national team. So it was a kind of a no-brainer knowing that World Cup is coming next year in 2026. You know, we had decided in 2019, how do we, how do we leverage that? How do we how do we approach our consumer? 00:05:11:01 - 00:05:45:09 Bob And it was to get involved with major league teams in Canada, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, and finally, really the crown jewel was Canada Soccer because we wanted to support our national teams, both, men and women. And of course, all the all the, grassroots programs across the country. Unfortunately, what had happened was, a number of different scandals, of which, a lot of the sponsors for Canada Soccer, in fact, had pulled out and and found it to be, untenable to maintain a relationship. 00:05:45:09 - 00:06:15:20 Bob And that was, you know, due to a few different, things that had happened. But probably the most prominent was, the women's soccer team going on strike, because of really unfair agreements or conditions as compared to the men's team. So an example of that was, they were having the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia, and many of the women's players had to pay for their own plane tickets to go to the World Cup. 00:06:15:22 - 00:06:25:09 Bob That's entirely unheard of for virtually any country, much less Canada, where obviously the men's team were fully funded. 00:06:25:11 - 00:06:27:03 Alison And which team was performing significantly better? 00:06:27:05 - 00:06:50:12 Bob Yeah, the the women's team was challenging. They'd won a gold medal. Definitely one of the top teams in the world. So it really didn't make a lot of sense. And, the women rightfully, protested it. They kept playing their games but they donned purple shirts and really made it public. So as a brand that damaged our brand significantly. 00:06:50:18 - 00:07:14:14 Bob And any brand associated with Canada Soccer, because if you don't stand for that, it's going to do damage and you get social media inquiries and all, all types of questions around, why are you sponsoring this? Why is GE a part of, this terrible thing that is happening over at Canada Soccer? So I had about a week and I really thought about it. 00:07:14:14 - 00:07:51:06 Bob And I had the opportunity because it is a clause in most, sponsorship contracts to actually withdraw. And big names had already withdrawn their support of Canada Soccer, which is, predominantly financial and significant amounts of support. We are one of the largest sponsors of Canada Soccer. So it was really a crossroads. And the one thing that really ran through my mind was that, if I withdraw support, I'm actually truly withdrawing support from both the men's, women's and grassroots programs. 00:07:51:08 - 00:08:15:20 Bob And essentially what that does is, although I'm doing it in, I guess, protest of how they were treating the women's team, I'm, I'm completely dropping the funding as well. So that actually wasn't a winning situation for anybody. I thought and I thought about it. And finally we came up with the idea to write an open letter. 00:08:15:21 - 00:08:39:06 Bob So we wrote an open letter, and we distributed that across all, media, online, etc. and it got picked up by a number of different publications - sports, Globe and Mail, TSN, etc. and what the letter had said was the letter was, was from me. And what it said was, I'm actually going to, give more money to Canada Soccer, which was kind of odd. 00:08:39:06 - 00:09:04:02 Bob I was going in the reverse direction. However, it came with a caveat, and the caveat was that that money was to go to specific programs that we agreed to and outlined, for example, trainers for the women's team, flights being paid for, etc., etc. It was all earmarked for the women's soccer program. That got me some calls. 00:09:04:02 - 00:09:29:12 Bob It actually got me some calls from the CEO and Headquarters and they were wondering, what I was doing and, I explained it to them that, that this is what our brand stands for, and this is the only way to maintain our commitment and our purpose, but still show that GE does not accept inequity. 00:09:29:14 - 00:09:50:17 Bob Our brand is not meant that way. And this is not acceptable to us, but we don't want to pull support of our hugely successful men's and women's programs. So a little bit of touchy, touchiness there, bit touch and go. But then finally, it actually paid off. Fast forward, months later, the women received an equal program. 00:09:50:17 - 00:10:24:09 Bob They received equal pay. They are now on equal terms with, with the men's team. And and you could see now, it spiraled into Women's League, just, Women's Northern Super League just started in Canada. The game is changing just like it is for basketball and, and hockey and women's sports. So, you know, the Changemaker Series is really creating a spark and doing small things that can add up to eventually becoming something big. 00:10:24:10 - 00:10:48:01 Alison And you describe it as a small thing. But from where I'm sitting, it is anything but a small thing on a bunch of levels. So first, you're betting your personal brand and reputation and to some degree, your job on this. It's a very bold move. And when you were on stage at Cannes, you talked about the crucial role being bold plays and you embody that and this decision and then this approach. 00:10:48:03 - 00:11:05:14 Alison I'm also curious to hear how you sold that through, like getting getting a call from the CEO of the global organization absolutely gets your attention. And I'm curious to hear how you sold it through, and at any point, did you question whether you should be pursuing this or not? 00:11:05:15 - 00:11:32:22 Bob Okay. So I'll answer the sold it through. Well, the the truth of the matter is, the good thing about my organization is that I'm granted a lot of autonomy. So I didn't really have to sell it through. I just explained what I was doing and why, and there wasn't any objection. I don't think that the gravity of what it was was really understood at the time, because nobody knew what would... nobody have, 00:11:32:22 - 00:11:54:21 Bob no media outlet might have picked it up like, but I, I really talked about it as a move, really advertising that, GE doesn't stand for that. But we don't want to withdraw our support of Canada. So I thought it was a win-win when I sold it through. And I still think it's a win-win for everyone now, today. 00:11:54:21 - 00:12:21:16 Bob And and now that it's easy to say it now because the numbers and everything proved it. But back at that time, I did believe in it. And really the reason why, so answering the second question, that I believe in it, is that it goes back to what does your brand stand for? What does GE mean to people? Our mantra is, good things for life and taking that a step further, it's good things for everyone. 00:12:21:18 - 00:12:54:20 Bob Everyone, every family in Canada needs home appliances. So we, we sell our products to everyone up and down the gamut. Every culture that comes to Canada, new immigrants, newcomers, whether you're transgender, homosexual, it really is irrelevant to us. Everyone needs them. So we have to be that brand. We have to equally represent everyone in that spectrum. 00:12:54:22 - 00:13:10:21 Bob Because they're all GE consumers. So to me, running with a purpose like that and what we what the brand means it, it kind of was a no-brainer. So, maybe it was a little foolhardy, but we did it. 00:13:10:23 - 00:13:27:16 Alison You've embodied being bold and brave in your move, you've made a significant difference for soccer in Canada, women in particular. So I'd love to hear on a personal note, how did it feel when you found out that your efforts led to the women getting equal rights, including equal pay? 00:13:27:18 - 00:14:01:04 Bob That is huge to me. I think, I, I, I played a lot of sports when I was younger. And, you know, any kid that's ever picked up a hockey stick or a football or a soccer ball, etc., you always have those dreams of game seven over time and being something in sports and, in my own small way, I think personally speaking, I was able to contribute and any success that, the women's team has, I feel a very small part of it. 00:14:01:04 - 00:14:40:05 Bob So it's really it it's it's the passion that that that drives you. It really personally upset me, especially the reason why I bring up that that flight thing that they had to pay for their own flights and they don't they don't have, they didn't have athletic trainers. It really broke my heart in the sense that, we were expecting these players to go out, and for the highest honour, to represent our country and the only other way to represent our country in that in such a manner is is going to war. 00:14:40:05 - 00:15:02:23 Bob And for that we give so much credit for. But these, these players sacrifice so much. And whether men or women, to represent us, and to not give them the basics, really what it is, to to give them the best opportunity that we possibly can for them to compete is just so, it was such an atrocity to me. 00:15:03:03 - 00:15:22:12 Bob And then to have it, without equity, was even, was even worse to me. So to be a small part of changing that dynamic was, was a huge impact on us. So seeing them successful and playing and the growth of the women's, women's, Northern Super League is amazing to me. I love it. 00:15:22:14 - 00:15:39:17 Alison Well, it's incredible to me as a Canadian, when I first heard I, I knew that they weren't getting equal pay, but I had no appreciation that many of them had to work part time jobs to pay for themselves and the fact that they didn't have trainers, didn't have to, had to pay their own flights, and yet were still performing at the level they were, 00:15:39:17 - 00:15:48:21 Alison and you think you can't help but think if we support them the way we should be, let's see what they can do. So thank you for being, you call it a small part of that, but I give you more credit than that. 00:15:48:22 - 00:15:50:08 Bob Thank you, thank you. 00:15:50:10 - 00:15:59:08 Alison Now, as marketers, everything we do is about the brand purpose. It's also about building the business. So I'd love you to share some of the business results too. 00:15:59:10 - 00:16:35:09 Bob So I think the way that you measure anything obviously, and in our world is definitely sales-based. And really what what marketing essentially, what we're trying to do as marketers is really put ourselves in that in a consideration set. There's so many different digital, KPI and different words that you can use for it. But at the end of the day, whether it's a chocolate bar, a t-shirt, whatever it is, in our case a washing machine or, or a stove, are we in that consideration set when that person comes to that time to purchase? 00:16:35:09 - 00:16:59:15 Bob And are we able to present why buy GE, in our case? And a lot of cases we're finding, let's say, for example, newcomers coming to Canada, they don't have General Electric here in France. So they're completely unaware of the brand. But they are aware of soccer, and they're fans of soccer. One of the first things they do when they come here is get acclimatized to what's going on with football in Canada. 00:16:59:17 - 00:17:23:09 Bob So all the background of why we got into this, we did so much research, and we knew that there was an entire market that we could start convincing to become at least someone that would consider a GE appliance and look at it, if not become a purchaser of a GE appliance. That's ultimately in any marketing organization, 00:17:23:09 - 00:17:52:05 Bob that is what we're trying to accomplish. So, oddly enough, doing purpose-built work like like we did with, with Quinn, the first non-binary, national ambassador of a corporate ambassador, to what we did to support the women's national team, it all paid off, year over year. And heading into 26, exponentially. 00:17:52:07 - 00:18:37:12 Bob We expect about probably about 75% increase in a research study that we do annually. And it's specifically targeted to, would you, would you consider buying a GE appliance? Would you recommend a GE appliance? Very simple questions. And that number, that statistic, with 12 million soccer fans in Canada, is increasing roughly about 10 to 20% every year, year over year. By 2026, which is the World Cup next year, that 12 million fans is going to become around 20 or 22 million fans, we predict, of soccer because of what a World Cup does when it comes to a nation. We're going to be primed and we're going to be a part of it, and it's simply doing things that are true to our brand identity. 00:18:40:09 - 00:18:46:22 Alison Well, that 10 to 20% annual increase in those sorts of studies is a significant increase. 00:18:46:23 - 00:19:15:03 Bob It really, it really is. More than actually what we had budgeted for or what we had forecasted. I was thinking more in the single digits, but it's really, really cool how this stuff really resonated. This, for example, the sport, the women's team, it shot up our website visits by 75% the next month, like literally, after that open letter went out. 00:19:15:03 - 00:19:39:12 Bob So people now are becoming much more interested and finding out about GE, it's it's where it wasn't in their consideration set before and have that emotional attachment with a soccer fan or a Canadian or a woman that just wants to see women's equity is really something you can't buy. You have to be bold. You have to, you have to do things that are true to your purpose. 00:19:39:14 - 00:20:06:03 Alison But I also love when it would be reasonable for our audience to say, okay, so why would an appliance company partner with soccer and part of your rationale you just shared is brilliant. Like if soccer is more global than GE is, we are a country of immigrants and newcomers to a large degree, and you saw an opportunity to leverage that to grow the awareness and the affinity for GE. That makes so much sense and great insight. 00:20:06:07 - 00:20:11:16 Bob Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it seemed so logical at the time. Yeah. And it worked out. 00:20:11:17 - 00:20:21:10 Alison So our audience are, I'm sure, going to be very curious to hear what your plans are, to the degree that you can share them, with soccer leading into 2026. 00:20:21:12 - 00:20:56:01 Bob So 2026 is so exciting. The reason why, what makes it so exciting is if you think of any sporting event in Canada, whether it's you, your grandparents. In the last 100 years or more, in fact, the existence of Canada, an international sporting event, or in fact, any event of this magnitude, it's never...
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EP46 - Cannes Lions 2025: What's Driving Creative Excellence with Susan Irving & Bryan Kane
06/17/2025
EP46 - Cannes Lions 2025: What's Driving Creative Excellence with Susan Irving & Bryan Kane
Broadcasting live from the 2025 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, CMA CEO Alison Simpson speaks with Susan Irving (CMO, Kruger Products) and Bryan Kane (CEO, FCB Canada) to discuss FCB Canada's Gold Lion win with SickKids Foundation and why Susan and Bryan keep returning to the festival. From Susan's three C's of Cannes and Bryan identifying areas to lean into, discover the insights shaping the future of marketing, creativity and accountability. 00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:23 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:11:01 - 00:00:32:16 Alison Simpson Welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. I'm Alison Simpson, and I am thrilled to be joined today by Susan Irving, the chief marketing officer for Kruger Products, and Bryan Kane, the CEO for FCB Canada. And Bryan, we'll start with a huge congratulations. You brought home Canada's first of hopefully many Gold Lions for your work with Sick Kids yesterday. How does it feel to be leading the charge? 00:00:32:18 - 00:00:50:22 Bryan Kane Well, it was a thrill for the team and everybody back home. There's an interesting thing with Cannes, where there's just a few of us that are here really representing the entire team, but getting the texts flooding in from clients and the rest of the agency was awesome to be able to share that with everybody. 00:00:51:00 - 00:01:02:18 Alison Simpson And, Susan, I know you've been here in past years. In fact, you judged, I think, two years ago. So how does it feel to be back and have a bit more flexibility in your schedule so you can actually take advantage of the programming? 00:01:02:20 - 00:01:27:17 Susan Irving It's always great to be here. It's my third year. And I think every year you're really just trying to get used to the craziness. I always say, if you've ever been to Vegas, it's Vegas times 100 for the marketer and creative individual. But it is nice this year not to be locked in a room for three days and being able to take advantage, of all the content. 00:01:28:06 - 00:01:42:03 Susan Irving If you've been here before, you know that it's just not the content here at the Palais. But then there's all the duelling beaches. So, it's always a struggle. I always tell people, register for everything, and then on the day, decide where you're going to go. 00:01:42:05 - 00:02:01:12 Alison Simpson So this is my first time back since I was agency side 15 years ago. And how much it has changed the volume of opportunities and calibre of speakers is unbelievable. So Susan, that is really, really good advice. So I'd love to hear from both of you. You've both been here multiple times. What keeps bringing you back? And Bryan, why don't you start? 00:02:01:14 - 00:02:31:15 Bryan Kane Sure. I think, Cannes does an incredible job of really looking at where the industry is going. So it's an opportunity to come together, as you mentioned, with, like, world class speakers. The content's incredible. But it's very forward-looking. So it's really a week where you can take a step back, reflect. And at the end of the day, it's also an opportunity to sharpen your tools where you get to take a step out of the business and really focus on learning and identifying those things that you need to to really lean into. 00:02:31:16 - 00:02:38:02 Bryan Kane So when you come home, you've got a really clear focus on what the keys are that you need to be looking at. 00:02:38:04 - 00:02:59:00 Susan Irving Yeah. Well said Bryan, if for me, you know, as a marketer, you think about the four P's, I think about it as the three C's of Cannes. Being the creative, the content and the connections that you make here. And, as Bryan said, it really is the time to to listen and get different perspectives on different businesses. 00:02:59:03 - 00:03:19:21 Susan Irving Listen to where the industry's going. And sit back and figure out what is then applicable to that, to your business. It just gives you so much hope and optimism and inspiration to see so much creativity across the board. And again, how do you bring it home to inspire your own teams and your own agencies? To get to great work. 00:03:19:23 - 00:03:21:16 Bryan Kane With. 00:03:21:18 - 00:03:39:14 Alison Simpson Very well said. And being live in Cannes means you're going to hear lots of background noise too. So that's just indicative of the level of energy that we're all surrounded by. So we're only on a couple of days into the festival, so it's still early, but I'd love to hear a particular key takeaway that you have or a presentation that really resonated with you. 00:03:39:14 - 00:03:41:10 Alison Simpson Susan, do you want to start? 00:03:41:12 - 00:04:16:18 Susan Irving Cannes was kicked off with some marketer of the year, which was Apple. And, you know, they're just a phenomenal organization. When you look at creativity and, you know, really thinking about hope and optimism and the fact that AI is is a big trend yet again. But really talking about, human emotion. And I can't deliver human connectivity and emotion and the way that Apple is just innovating and stepping forward, that constantly solving, a human problem or driving a human emotion. 00:04:16:20 - 00:04:54:17 Susan Irving The second one, we were at Salesforce speech, yesterday. And again, it was Scott Galloway, who always says it like it is, he's quite blunt and straightforward, but the biggest message I got from him was stop thinking about AI as, as a tool and start thinking about it as a collaborator, because when, human detail, and human thought combined with power of AI, your accuracy will be that much higher when you think about it as a collaborator versus a tool. 00:04:55:00 - 00:05:17:03 Bryan Kane I think from an actual sort of time spent in my first day, there's an opportunity in Cannes, in the basement, where they post all the shortlists in the press for it, so you can really dive into the work. And I just felt my tank getting filled, looking at all this incredible work from around the world and really benchmarking ourselves against the absolute best. 00:05:17:03 - 00:05:37:17 Bryan Kane Not in a category, not in a country, but just world class work. So the time spent in the basement is something that I cherish and try and make sure I squeeze some some time away as a guilty pleasure, just to sort of soak in the work for sure. I think also like in the context of some of the AI conversations, it's a theme of pretty much every talk. 00:05:38:07 - 00:06:12:04 Bryan Kane But what I've noticed, the difference between last year and this year is it's really stripped out. AI is being the idea, and it's really how did I help the idea? And really what is the role of AI? And so seeing the progression just in the 12 months since we were here last, has been really interesting. And I think that that continual evolution of us understanding how to harness the power of AI as opposed to it's a checkbox, that we need to integrate within our creative process so that that was sort of a takeaway, but it wasn't one talk, it just the theme, this sort of emerging. 00:06:12:06 - 00:06:30:12 Susan Irving What just to build on that point was interesting to think about three years ago, the conversations were what is AI and how do I even use it? And even last year it was here's some tools. Here's how you can use it safely. But you're right. This year it's how did you use AI as a tool, to make your creative process better. 00:06:30:12 - 00:06:34:20 Susan Irving So you're right, it was quite interesting. 00:06:34:21 - 00:06:49:16 Alison Simpson So you both are clearly immersing yourself in the festival and all the benefits that it brings with it. So I'd love to hear what unexpected insight or new learning that you think will shift either the future of creativity or marketing. 00:06:49:18 - 00:07:08:05 Bryan Kane I think, one thing that's emerged is the need for optimism in the world. It's come up a couple of different times. It was a theme through the show last night when they were recognizing all the Gold and Grand Prix winners, but as I was sitting with that thought, it was the important role that brands play in our lives. 00:07:08:05 - 00:07:31:01 Bryan Kane And brands have never been more important to give meaning and cultural context in a world that you know is increasingly chaotic. But that brands can be that anchor point for consumers and the need for optimism within brands, and to find ways to bring joy to people's lives, to help them, save time with something Scott Galloway was talking about. 00:07:31:06 - 00:07:41:16 Bryan Kane But the role that brands play and the importance was one where, you know, early in the week, but that was a reflection. And I think I'll sit with that through the rest of the week and build out that thought. 00:07:42:19 - 00:08:14:15 Susan Irving For me, it's also innovation. There seems to be a lot more of a trend, this year on innovation. One of the difference that, the schedule has done, they've now kind of shown you paths, that you can take that I think distills, the schedule a little bit more. But last night at the awards, just even after Bryan Ncbi won gold, they showed, a competition that they have where brands needed to solve, an innovation problem and come up with a solution for the world. 00:08:14:17 - 00:08:25:21 Susan Irving So again, what's exciting is, is leveraging creativity to come up with future innovation to solve world problems. 00:08:25:23 - 00:08:50:04 Alison Simpson And so both great insights and Bryan, building on euros, we had CMA's event case for Canada last week. And Kantar shared that only Canadians only think 13% of brands currently understand what their lives are about and the challenges they face, which is a huge opportunity to bring more positivity and purpose and have brands take a more of a leadership role in helping Canadians get to a better place in their lives. 00:08:50:04 - 00:09:04:07 Alison Simpson So nice to see the parallels. Absolutely. So still early in the week, we'd love to hear from each of you what you're most excited about or looking forward to in the remainder of the week. Who wants to kick us off? 00:09:04:09 - 00:09:20:21 Susan Irving I think there's a couple of things I always love the award shows. Obviously I think the stats are only 10% get shortlisted. Yeah, it's only 10% get shortlisted from the entries and only 5% three 3 to 5% medal and is. 00:09:20:21 - 00:09:22:01 Bryan Kane One Grand Prix. 00:09:22:07 - 00:09:41:11 Susan Irving And point one was the number that he said last night. So I love going to the shows, because you get to see the best of the best and see everything that's been judged. But then secondly, I, I love the speakers. I love going to the CMO, speakers. I love seeing all the celebrities that they have this year, which seems to be a bigger trend. 00:09:41:11 - 00:09:54:06 Susan Irving We just saw Serena Williams, the Kelce brothers were here. But it's just really understanding the different roles and different elements there are in terms of, you know, driving brand equity. 00:09:54:08 - 00:10:25:22 Bryan Kane The part of the week that I love again, is sort of rooted in the work, which is in the basement in the bowels of the Palais here. And there's, there's sessions every day, which is inside the jury room where the jury share the deliberation of the work and why one piece was awarded or maybe not, coming in, there's certain pieces that people expect to do really well, but really understanding the insights and how they just tour the work apart to really understand what was the insight, what was the driver and did that translate into the work. 00:10:25:22 - 00:10:57:06 Bryan Kane And then again, this really critical lens on results. And were these results clearly tied to the work, as opposed to a general business result? And having seen that evolve over the last number of years has been really interesting. The accountability behind the work and really work that is, is proving that creativity is an economic multiplier. And there's a direct straight line, between all the work and the immediate and long term business results. 00:10:57:08 - 00:11:18:06 Alison Simpson That is a fabulous note to end. Because it helps give our compression even more credibility. We are such a powerful part of building businesses and helping drive Canada's economy, and creativity is absolutely the accelerator for that. So it's wonderful to be learning as you are here, of the very real impact and able to quantify that. So Susan and Bryan, many, many thanks. 00:11:18:06 - 00:11:23:14 Alison Simpson I know it's an incredibly busy week and you've got a jam packed agenda. And I really appreciate you making time raising. 00:11:23:14 - 00:11:28:10 Bryan Kane Thank you. So. 00:11:28:12 - 00:11:41:01 Announcer Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends.
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EP45 - Actionable Data Strategies, Privacy, AI & Enterprise Leadership with Jan Kestle
06/11/2025
EP45 - Actionable Data Strategies, Privacy, AI & Enterprise Leadership with Jan Kestle
How can marketers harness data-driven insights while navigating privacy and emerging technologies? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Jan Kestle, founder and President of Environics Analytics, to discuss why data strategies must be enterprise-led, moving from "so what?" insights to "now what?" outcomes. Their conversation covers privacy-compliant collaboration platforms that reveal which advertising works, how privacy compliance enables effective marketing, and AI's role in enhancing data interpretation. 00;00;01;23 - 00;00;06;09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00;00;22;17 - 00;00;49;16 Alison Welcome to CMA Connect, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of marketing with industry leaders and innovators. Today, I am absolutely thrilled to welcome a true pioneer in the realms of data, statistics and marketing, Jan Nestle. Jan is the founder and president of Environics Analytics. With over five decades of experience, Jan has been at the forefront of using data and analytics to solve complex business problems and help shape the marketing landscape in Canada and beyond. 00;00;49;18 - 00;01;17;08 Alison Jan's journey is nothing short of inspirational. From her early days at the Ontario Statistical Centre to founding Environics Analytics in 2003, she is consistently pushed the boundaries of what's possible with data-driven insights. Her contributions to the industry are massive and include developing the Prism Segmentation system and the Envision Business Intelligent platform, tools that have revolutionized how marketers understand and can reach their audiences. 00;01;17;10 - 00;01;42;08 Alison In recognition of her groundbreaking work. Jan was honoured with the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2022, truly cementing her status as a trailblazer in our field. In today's episode, we'll explore Jan's really fascinating career path and discuss a range of topics that are reshaping the marketing landscape. From the evolving role of data and predictive analytics, to solving business problems to navigating data privacy complexities, 00;01;42;10 - 00;02;01;23 Alison we plan to delve into the future of data-driven marketing. We're also going to touch on AI, enhanced customer journey mapping, ethical considerations and hyper-personalized marketing, and the importance of data sharing and driving business success. There is no shortage of great topics that Jan can speak to, and it is an absolute pleasure, Jan, to welcome you to CMA Connect today. 00;02;01;26 - 00;02;20;00 Jan Well, thank you very much and thank you for having me. I love working with the CMA. I think the CMA in the past few years has done an incredible job of having conversations that are very important to marketers and to the whole business community in Canada. So it's my pleasure to be with you here today, Alison. 00;02;20;02 - 00;02;40;21 Alison And well, thank you so much. Jan, I don't use the term pioneer lightly. You've been a pioneer in data statistics in the marketing professions. The fact that you've been a leading innovator in all three is also a sign that you didn't really take a traditional path to your career. You also succeeded as a woman at a time that was, very sadly, very rare. 00;02;40;24 - 00;02;52;23 Alison And I really find your story inspiring, both from a professional perspective and also from a personal perspective. I know many of our listeners would as well. So I'd love to start by having you share a little bit about your journey. 00;02;52;25 - 00;03;22;06 Jan Sure. Thank you. Well, sometimes when I think about my long career, which I guess part of what makes me a pioneer is it goes so far back, is I think about three aspects to my career. First of all, as you mentioned, I worked as a government statistician, and then I worked as a sales and product development person and eventually a leader in a company that was well-established and owned by various players in the information business. 00;03;22;08 - 00;03;41;01 Alison And then finally, in the latter part of my career, actually started a business and built that. And for some people, it's kind of like, well, how did you decide to go from a government job to leading and working in the private sector and then running a pretty interesting business in the private sector? Why did you decide to start your own business? 00;03;41;01 - 00;04;03;13 Jan And always gives me pause when I think about it that way, because to me, it's been a continuum of figuring out how data and mathematics can really help simulate realities and help people solve problems, whether it's for business or social services or, you know, how we make Canada run better? I've always been excited about being able to use information to do that. 00;04;03;18 - 00;04;32;24 Jan The truth is, I, I have a degree in applied math, which is kind of like a combination of math and physics, and I graduated in a class of four women out of 140 classmates. And it was difficult, even being, you know, a good student and high in the rankings of my class. It was difficult to to get jobs for women in those scientific, and honestly, in any business in that day and age. 00;04;32;24 - 00;05;04;18 Alison So I was very excited to take on my first job as a survey statistician and editor in the provincial government. And that was when we didn't even have computers, never mind AI. We put data on spreadsheets that was actual pieces of paper. We edited questionnaires with red pencils. We shared our work with our partner across the table to do QA, and then we added up rows and columns in order to create data that went into large statistical outputs. 00;05;04;18 - 00;05;31;18 JAn I always say I got really good training on thinking about what the data are telling you and what's missing and what makes sense by being right down in the trenches. Eventually, in that particular role, I moved on to doing a lot of negotiating for the priorities for Ontario and the federal provincial context. But eventually I was leading that organization, and I, I enjoyed very much the work that I got to do in the policy side. 00;05;31;20 - 00;06;03;28 Jan But my choices for a new challenge were to leave the statistics and the data part of of the work and move into more of a government policy job. But I had the opportunity to go and work for the first company in Canada that took data and demographics and created customized versions of that that businesses could use. Compusearch was the pioneering company in that field, and they'd been around for about 15 years and mainly working for retailers. 00;06;04;00 - 00;06;27;07 Jan But they started to branch out and they recruited someone who really understood packaged goods, and they understood someone who worked in the financial sector. And they came and recruited me as someone who worked with governments and not-for-profits. And I joined, actually only took me like five days to make a decision to leave my pension and all that government work and take this opportunity. 00;06;27;07 - 00;07;02;23 Jan And I went into sales and I'd never been in sales. I'd done a lot of business and relationships, but my first job there was selling the data that they had produced back to the government sector, and that was exciting. And led me to an opportunity to work on the product side, is how do we take data and turn it into information, because many organizations can't really invest in building data and doing the work from the ground up. You actually have to turn data into a product or a service that can be actionable, that can make a difference to a community or to a business. 00;07;02;23 - 00;07;26;00 Jan So I went from being the statistician to being the sales person and understanding my customer's needs, and then going into product, and then eventually to president of that organization during its largest period of growth, which was the time period when people got computers on their desks, desktop computers, we went into desktop mapping. It was just the very beginning. 00;07;26;02 - 00;07;52;06 Jan It wasn't even the CRM era. It was what we call database marketing. When we were starting to mine data and combine the kind of data that brands had about their customers, quite limited, with the data that we had about postal codes. So I always think, you know, all these parts of this journey really enabled me to think about how to make data help people make good decisions. 00;07;52;08 - 00;08;21;26 Jan And eventually Compusearch was sold a few times and, and, you know, kind of went the route of what often happens with little businesses when they become successful. They they kind of became a part of selling software. And you know, a more bundled solution. And a few of us had a lot of feedback from our former customers to say, we really want people who focus on the data and the customized solutions or implementing the standard solutions in a customized way. 00;08;21;26 - 00;08;52;21 Jan And so, you know, the story is pretty well known. I decided to start a new business basically replicating building the data, but also helping people understand how to use the data. And that's what we started Environics Analytics. Our funding came from the traditional market research company, Environics Research, that had built a niche for itself, not only measuring political polling and consumer research, but measuring people's values and psychographics. 00;08;52;21 - 00;09;25;26 Jan And so they had this idea of bringing those two worlds together. And so Environics and ourselves are a little team of former geo demographers started Environics Analytics. Twenty years, 300 people, you know, a thousand customers and lots of databases and lots of data development. I still feel like we're continuing that legacy of help people take data and turn it into information that enables them to take action that can actually make their organizations more successful and ultimately make people's lives better. 00;09;25;26 - 00;09;49;15 Jan I think we know data for good. If you use data for health care or education or, you know, not-for-profit, that's considered data for good. But I also think it's data for good if you can get the right messages to the right people at the right time, get the right products on the right shelves, you know, organize people's busy lives so that they can really make good decisions and the data are there for them. 00;09;49;15 - 00;10;18;22 Jan So that's a bit of a long story, but that's kind of how I went from one data-driven organization to another and ended up building Environics Analytics. And then of course, the last phase of that story was when my partners and I sold the business to BCE, and we're now a Bell- backed company, but we still run an independent company where Bell is a customer and treated on a level playing field with other customers. 00;10;18;24 - 00;10;38;11 Jan But the great thing about that part of the journey is that they saw the need for Canada to really have a vibrant data business, and they have invested and supported us to continue to offer data and analytics services to the Canadian business community and their customers. 00;10;38;13 - 00;11;01;21 Alison Their story is so inspiring on so many different levels. There's so much curiosity that you've experienced, there's so much openness to try new things, so much innovation, and having a real vision for where you could take your skills next so I'm inspired on all of those levels. I also love the fact that for someone who started their career before computers existed, there can be a lot of biases around that 00;11;01;21 - 00;11;09;29 Alison you have to be a digital native to really get technology and to be visionary about technology. And you are such a wonderful example of that as total BS. 00;11;10;05 - 00;11;16;07 Jan Before we had desktop computers, I have to say we have computers! 00;11;16;10 - 00;11;38;11 Alison Good clarification. Well, and you continue to be very tech savvy and leverage technology and being very future focused. So when I think about some of the stereotypes that exist about you have to be a digital native to get it and to lead it, but you're a great example that that's simply not true. And then being one of four woman in a class of 140, to what degree did that experience, 00;11;38;11 - 00;11;43;26 Alison What skills to that experience give you that you think have benefited you throughout your career? 00;11;43;29 - 00;12;07;00 Jan Well, throughout my career I've always been sometimes the only or one of the very few women in the room. Even still now, because being at the executive level in businesses and being in businesses that tend to be more tech- oriented, we just have not, we've had progress, but we haven't had enough women get into those jobs and into those levels. 00;12;07;02 - 00;12;31;02 Jan I think the thing that, you know, you have to have a voice, and I think the most important thing for young women to know is, first of all, now I think they are far more welcomed and appreciated. I think that men in business understand the role that diversity brings to the table. So we talk about diversity in terms of of women in leadership and women in, in certain roles. 00;12;31;02 - 00;12;59;01 Jan But I think organizations that are committed to promoting women and, you know, fighting racism and fighting all different kinds of discrimination against special populations are really understanding that the talent pool that they're unlocking is tremendously valuable. And you're not leaving half the population or a third of the population, or 10% of the population on the table, by just hiring and promoting the same kind of people. 00;12;59;01 - 00;13;43;16 Jan So I learned by doing and and, you know, when I think back of the people that I highlighted and promoted in those different organizations, I'm proud of the fact that we always believed in diversity and equity and inclusion. And sometimes it was harder than other times to implement. One of the things that we do a lot of work on now is in the educational community, where we go into universities and we go into colleges and even into high schools and into women's organizations and into STEM organizations to help people understand how exciting and interesting these jobs are. 00;13;43;18 - 00;14;09;10 Jan Because sometimes if, you know, you're a high school student and struggling with math, or you might be really interested in geography, you might have no idea what the options are in the data and analytics space for you. You might think it's only coding and IT, but we're hiring a lot of people out of engineering. And you know what, the engineering classes have switched and the engineering classes are sometimes you know the majority are women. 00;14;09;10 - 00;14;21;18 Jan So through the years, times have changed. But we've also, as a team, stuck to that objective to make sure that you're using the whole talent pool and that you're using it effectively. 00;14;21;20 - 00;14;37;13 Alison It's another great example of how have you've led and positively impacted the profession. So a huge thank you for that. Now, with your wealth of experience, I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from hearing your views on the pivotal role that data, statistics and software have in helping us solve business problems. 00;14;37;15 - 00;14;57;24 Jan I remember about ten years ago we did a roadshow. We also like to get out across the country. We would do a breakfast and we'd go to Vancouver and then we'd go to Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, you know, stop in Quebec City and Montreal and then on to Halifax and other places and actually do a roadshow on the things we were doing. 00;14;57;24 - 00;15;28;18 Jan And I remember being really struck, I want to say about, 2016, when every journal with you Reading Inc. magazine or even Forbes or the Harvard Business Reviews, all the articles were about data-driven decision making. And I used to make a joke to say, well, what the hell else would you do, right? But I also know the extent to which we were selling people sophisticated models to find the best locations for retail sites. 00;15;28;20 - 00;15;54;25 Jan Or we were looking at, you know, early media, mixed models and channel optimization, looking at ROI across, you know, online and offline advertising. We were doing all this great work, and yet so many people were still using gut feel and the way we used to do it, that inertia and changing to new ways of doing things, is really hard for people. 00;15;54;28 - 00;16;21;17 Jan And so once more data became available, everyone was talking about using data. What I saw was a lot of organizations investing in data and investing in technology, but I was also very worried throughout the 2000s with a real backlash, which says, well, we're spending all this money on data, we're investing in technology, but is it really making a difference? 00;16;21;19 - 00;16;54;09 Jan And I think we now are at this stage where there's a lot more recognition that it does make a difference. But I think that it's pivotal if an organization has a data and analytics strategy, and it can't be something that comes from the ground up, even from the marketers, as much as the marketers I 100% support marketers have a role, but the IT department, the actual data scientists, they can't really develop a data strategy. 00;16;54;09 - 00;17;15;17 Jan It has to come from the business strategy. We have to know what are the problems we're trying to solve and the extent to which even C-suite, the CFO, the CEO, the COO will collaborate with the CTO and the CMO and we say, look, here's all the data we have. Here's what we need to do to harness it. Here's the data we don't have. 00;17;15;17 - 00;17;37;06 Jan Here's how we can get it. Here are the problems we're trying to solve. But then the other key question is, to what extent can we take this great insight and actually put it into practice? Because the last thing that you want to do if you're in the data business, is produce interesting studies and have people say, so what? You want people to say, now what? 00;17;37;06 - 00;18;04;26 Jan And the thing that's made a big difference is people's recognition that you design your data strategy and your analytics strategy around your business goals, understanding, how much can you actually go and implement, and how can you tell whether or not it's working? And I'm very excited about the extent to which we see that enterprise perspective, the silos in different parts of organizations being broken down. 00;18;04;26 - 00;18;17;20 Jan We're not there yet, but I think there's a recognition that there's an enterprise play for data and analytics, and that organizations will do much better when they have a strategy that's led from the top. 00;18;17;23 - 00;18;37;08 Alison That makes infinite sense. And I love the pivot from instead of it being so what to now what? That strong action orientation is critical for any business and critical for any marketer in order to build the business and build their career. So how do you see the relationship between data analytics and consumer trust evolving in the coming years? 00;18;37;11 - 00;18;58;22 Jan Well, when we're talking about data and analytics, the biggest application that we work in with marketers is really understanding consumers and creating consumer insight. You know, as much as we produce all this great third party data that comes from external sources and is anonymized and aggregated and delivered at the postal code, and I love the data, it's extremely useful. 00;18;58;22 - 00;19;25;28 Jan Biggest asset that brands have is the data that they have about their own customers. You know, we now start talking about first party...
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