CMA Connect

Welcome to CMA Connect - the voice of the Canadian marketing community. Join us for empowering discussions with industry leaders about the rapidly changing world of marketing.

EP48 - Canada's First Young Lions Design Gold with Zoë Boudreau and Jesse Shaw 06/27/2025

EP48 - Canada's First Young Lions Design Gold with Zoë Boudreau and Jesse Shaw On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, speaks with Canadians Zoë Boudreau, Associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, Senior Motion Designer, both from Rethink, about winning Canada's first Young Lions Design Competition gold at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. They reveal how a challenging 24-hour brief on Indian comic book history—completely outside their expertise—pushed them to implement integrated speech bubbles and motion systems that no other team explored. Hear how their complementary skills, iterative approach, and ability to maintain humour under extreme pressure turned unfamiliar constraints into gold-winning creativity. See their Young Lion gold-winning work . 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:01 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:03 - 00:00:48:05 Alison Welcome back to CMA Connect. Today we're bringing you a truly special conversation straight from the heart of the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Every year, the Young Lions competition challenges the brightest emerging talent from around the world, really pushing them to innovate under incredible pressure. This year, on the last day of what was already a very inspiring week, Canada truly shone on that global stage. 00:00:48:07 - 00:01:09:03 Alison So I am thrilled to be joined today by the talented young Canadian creative team, Zoe Boudreau, an associate Creative Director of Design, and Jesse Shaw, a senior motion designer who not only competed but brought home the coveted Gold Lion for design. So I don't normally do a standing ovation in the beginning of a podcast, but guys, you totally deserve a standing ovation. 00:01:09:03 - 00:01:12:07 Alison So super well done. 00:01:12:09 - 00:01:13:11 Jesse Thank you so much. 00:01:13:13 - 00:01:14:07 Zoe Thank you. 00:01:14:12 - 00:01:35:11 Alison Now this incredible achievement really is a testament to your vision, certainly a testament to your hard work. It also highlights the important role of The Globe and Mail, a Canadian Marketing Association member, who champion and lead the Canadian Young Lions competition here in Canada and are really playing an important role for helping foster the next generation of creative leaders right here at home. 00:01:35:17 - 00:01:46:08 Alison So to all our listeners, get ready to be inspired as we hear directly from Canada's winning team about their journey to gold. Zoe and Jesse. Huge welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. Zoe Thank you. 00:01:46:12 - 00:01:47:17 Jesse Thank you so much. 00:01:47:19 - 00:01:56:15 Alison The first question I'm going to ask is, who was the first person you reached out to back home once you found out you'd want? Zoe, do you want to go first? 00:01:56:17 - 00:02:10:19 Zoe Ooh. Honestly, I think it was probably my boyfriend. I think was the first one, but he was dead asleep, so he did not find out until the morning. But that was definitely the first person I texted. that night. 00:02:10:19 - 00:02:15:11 Alison That nine hour time zone wouldn't have worked to your advantage on that one, coming from Kelowna. And Jesse, what about you? 00:02:15:16 - 00:02:41:05 Jesse Yeah. It was. I mean, I'd like to say it was my wife, but, no, it was my mom because she texted me, like, five minutes after we won. Like, trying to act really casual like she hadn't been awake all night. Saying, like, oh, have you heard anything? So I FaceTimed or just with the, with the award, and it was fun watching her, like, recognize in real time what she was reading, because I think it was exactly, it was like one in the morning or something. 00:02:41:05 - 00:02:45:21 Alison So I think your wife is can understand that. 00:02:45:23 - 00:02:52:18 Jesse Yeah, she, she, she woke up to the message and she seemed pretty excited when, when she found out. But yeah. 00:02:52:20 - 00:03:17:13 Alison That is very cool. Well, needless to say, taking home a Gold Lion in design at Cannes is a monumental achievement, especially in the Young Lions competition, which has a very intense 24-hour brief. So huge congratulations, and I'd love you to walk me through the initial moments when you first saw the brief through to coming up with the award winning idea and executing it under such an incredibly tight time constraints. 00:03:17:14 - 00:03:19:11 Alison So who wants to kick it off? 00:03:19:12 - 00:03:40:08 Zoe Yeah, I can kick off like the brief aspect. We were in the this area. We were like eating, because we knew that was something we needed to do before getting into the competition. And we got briefed at 4:00, but we got the briefs sent to us, I think it was at 3:30. Yeah. And we forgot about that, that it was going to be sent to us. 00:03:40:08 - 00:04:07:14 Zoe So as we were eating, it got sent through our email and we're like, the brief! We should probably read this. And we really were like, honestly, I was kind of like surprised or like, really like, scared of the brief. The brief was really tricky. And I think that Jesse and I were just talking about it, and my face was like, oh no, this is like a really hard brief. 00:04:07:14 - 00:04:29:00 Zoe But we got some really good advice from one of our other Canadian Young Lions saying that if it's a hard breathe, it's actually a huge opportunity because everyone's going to see it as a hard brief. So you can just like go hard. If that's the case. So that was pretty intense at the the up front because we were like, oh, this is actually going to be like an all-nighter. 00:04:29:01 - 00:04:49:01 Jesse Yeah I think yeah. So I think it's called the solarium, like the cafe, and you know, really the memory is just having, you know, the, the hot sun just beating down on us and really thinking like, okay, this is, yeah. This isn't going to be fun. This is, this is not going to be a cakewalk. 00:04:49:03 - 00:05:11:20 Jesse And I think kind of recognizing like in that moment. Yeah. That, you know, we got in here representing Canada and that it wasn't going to get to trust that we were here on our own merit. But, you know, you see something like a brief as maybe outside of our boundaries as it was. And yeah, kind of recognizing that we're going to need to dig deep. 00:05:11:22 - 00:05:31:22 Jesse You know, it's it's fun talking about it now, but I was definitely texting a few people, right when we got it. You can definitely see that the decline in like, sanity and just the stress really flow out. So I just want to, I just want to say I appreciate it. Everyone that had to listen to me freak out online. 00:05:32:00 - 00:05:44:02 Alison Well, and the, being in the solarium, something like 32 degree heat, sunshine takes the whole concept of pressure cooker to a whole other level. Now what was it about the brief that made it so tricky and challenging? 00:05:44:04 - 00:06:21:20 Zoe I'd have to say that, well, the brief was making an exhibition in India on Indian comic books. But not just that. It's like the history of storytelling or visual storytelling that leads to comic books. So there were so many layers as part of the brief. And on top of that, we had to name it. And I think the naming part was the thing that we were really freaked out about because we're not copywriters by trade, but now we like to pretend that we are because we we, 00:06:21:22 - 00:06:26:14 Zoe I think we came up with a pretty sick name. Yeah. Go ahead. Jesse. 00:06:26:16 - 00:06:27:00 Jesse Oh, no, no. 00:06:27:03 - 00:06:54:11 Jesse No, I mean, it's it's exactly that I think in the Canadian for the Canadian portion of the Young Lions competition, the brief was around a biking event. That was something like a lot of, you know, experience with attending bike events. It was a space that I was really comfortable and interested in. So we kind of felt, you know, leading into that, that maybe we got lucky or that, you know, the things just sort of aligned for us to really hit the ground running there. 00:06:54:13 - 00:07:23:06 Jesse And that just wasn't the case. You know, unfortunately, just recognizing our own paths that just didn't have a ton of cultural touch points to the history of sequential storytelling in India, so that this wasn't going to be something that we just luck into. It was going to be a lot of work. But definitely, you know, on the other side of that, realizing that it was, you know, a super cool and just feel super fortunate for having that opportunity to learn about the space because that was something that we had no idea about going into it. 00:07:23:06 - 00:07:31:16 Jesse And on the other side now, it's something that I think during the presentation portion, we were like genuinely enthusiastic about championing it because it's incredible. 00:07:31:22 - 00:07:46:18 Alison Well, that's such a great testament to the profession, because there are times, I've been agency side, I've been brand side, and there are times where you get a client, or you get a brief. It's like, oh, perfect. I have a passion for this. I have an interest for this. But most of the time it's like, okay, that's fascinating. 00:07:46:18 - 00:08:04:07 Alison I don't know much about the market. I don't know much about the brand. I don't know much about the consumer and how you have to dig in and learn, and the fact that you dug in and learned in a very, very compressed time period and emerge with gold, that has to be even more gratifying. So huge, huge congratulations. 00:08:04:13 - 00:08:05:10 Jesse Appreciate that. 00:08:05:12 - 00:08:18:17 Alison So you've shared a bit about the significant creative hurdle that you were encountering with the brief. I'd love to hear, how did you leverage each other's strengths or challenge each other's thinking to overcome it? And Jesse, why don't you kick things off? 00:08:18:18 - 00:08:43:22 Jesse Yeah, totally. Yeah. I think one thing that is maybe unique to our partnership, it was because we were put together as a team under the recommendation of our boss, Hans. A lot of teams designed specifically in Young Lions will be put together because, you know, they're two graphic designers. It's a graphic design competition so, you know, why wouldn't you want two people that are, you know, trained in the same discipline, working together? 00:08:43:22 - 00:09:05:13 Jesse I think what's unique about our partnership is Zoe's trained in graphic design and I'm a motion designer. So when we approach, thinking, and approach, I guess conceptual identity thinking, we're coming at it from two different angles. I think in the moment there's things that, you know, maybe I'll think are obvious or Zoe we will think is obvious, and maybe the other person misses that. 00:09:05:13 - 00:09:35:22 Jesse And I think it's nice because it's a bit more of a holistic approach to identity building that other teams, you know, maybe, might not have. So almost immediately, you know, we're thinking about a system larger than maybe what's on the brief. And I think in doing so, we're able to kind of like go big, recognize all the opportunities and then hone it down to sort of sort of what is the core idea and then hit the ground there. 00:09:36:00 - 00:09:38:08 Jesse And I think that's kind of how we started. 00:09:38:10 - 00:09:54:15 Alison It is super helpful to have different perspectives. And to your point, like really, it really helped broaden your approach and your thinking. Now, Zoe, you mentioned earlier that you also now can count yourselves as copywriters because part of this was coming up with the name and you said it was a sick name. So what was the name? 00:09:56:11 - 00:10:20:15 Zoe Yeah, the name was IN FRAME, and I actually have to give credit to Jesse because he came up with this, in the sense that IN is like the shorthand for India and then frames is kind of like the device that are used within comic books, like the paneling and then the whole system is based around bringing Indian comic books centre frame. 00:10:20:17 - 00:10:35:09 Zoe So then we have the comics and the, the artwork living within the IN as a framing device. So it's like this kind of full circle kind of identity within that. So that, that's definitely goes out to Jesse's IN. 00:10:35:11 - 00:10:35:23 Jesse I mean, 00:10:36:00 - 00:11:04:05 Jesse I'll say it's a, it's a 50/50 thing. I, when we first got the brief, when we left the Palais and we were walking back to our hotel. Yeah, we just started brainstorming. I think it's not a uncommon thing for people to recommend walking and brainstorming as like a really fruitful method for the idea building. And one of the ways they were defining this history of comics and visual storytelling was referred to as sequential storytelling. 00:11:04:07 - 00:11:20:04 Jesse So I really locked on to just, you know, how many, what sort of phrases does it, sequence or sequential come up in? So I think I had a working title called IN Sequence that was, I think maybe what we, and then we split apart when we got to the hotel for about an hour to do some brainstorming. 00:11:20:04 - 00:11:32:09 Jesse And then when I came back, Zoe, you were the one that had mentioned that you'd seen frame come up so much. So I think from there we kind of, it was a, it was a, it was a team effort. I did not want to take full credit for that. 00:11:32:10 - 00:11:34:22 Zoe One word each. 00:11:35:00 - 00:11:39:19 Jesse Exactly! And actually if we're going by word, by a letter count, you actually did more work. 00:11:39:19 - 00:11:42:20 Zoe Letter count, yeah. 00:11:42:22 - 00:12:01:10 Alison And for our listeners, I know they're going to want to see the work, so we will link in the comments so that they can actually see your Gold Lion and your work as well. So looking back at the work, with just a little bit of distance, what's one element or specific design choice that you believe really elevated your entry above the rest? 00:12:01:12 - 00:12:29:16 Zoe I think there's two pieces. There is a moment where we were dealing with like the system, and we had this framing device that we were excited about, but then Jesse discovered that underneath the N, there's this notch. And what happens is that there was an ability or an opportunity to put a speech bubble underneath it, which is very common within comic book storytelling, is the the speech bubble on and all that kind of stuff. 00:12:29:16 - 00:12:59:22 Zoe And we had this opportunity to put the artwork within the framing device, but then also have them talking. And so we were able to have the characters speak within the system, which felt like really playful and interesting and, and no one else used speech bubbles at all, which I was surprised within any of the other work. So I think that was our first unlocking moment of making something really interesting and robust within a system. 00:13:00:04 - 00:13:23:05 Zoe And then, we were the only like, from what I could tell the team that had motion or it had a robust motion system. So I think that was like the cherry on top was having this system that had something that was interesting with the speech bubble and then layering on top this like very great motion system as an aside. 00:13:23:07 - 00:13:53:12 Jesse Doing the motion system, like, that was super fun. And I do, yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't disagree that is definitely maybe a differentiation point in comparison. But I do think our ability to work and iterate quickly just allowed us to sort of spin out so many different options so quickly that, you know, then when we were presenting to the judges, we weren't feeling like, you know, this is the, this is the idea we came up with 11 this morning and it's the best thing that we could do. 00:13:53:14 - 00:14:18:12 Jesse I think an approach that our company Rethink really champions, that our bosses really champion, is this idea of, you know, 1 or 100. So you don't know if your first idea or your hundredth idea is the best one. And the only way to find out is to make 100 ideas. So in that, we were, you know, able to kind of build out, I don't want to say we didn't do 100 ideas, but I think, you know, we we went easy on ourselves. 00:14:18:12 - 00:14:43:11 Jesse It was 24 hours. So, but there were, you know, multiple different inroads. And I think recognizing pretty early on just because of our, the speed that we're able to work out, that the idea that we were presenting wasn't the only thing we'd come up with. It was the best idea that we'd come up with. So there's a confidence that comes from that, and it's an approach that I don't know is reflected in other aspects of the industry. 00:14:43:13 - 00:14:45:10 Jesse So super grateful for that. 00:14:45:12 - 00:15:07:09 Alison That iterative approach certainly has served Rethink incredibly well on the 5th year, 5th year in a row, I believe, at Cannes, being the independent agency. So it's definitely serving you and the organization incredibly well. So in going through all of that iteration, how obvious was it to both of you that this idea was the winning idea? 00:15:07:11 - 00:15:26:00 Zoe I don't know if it was obvious to me at that point. I think Jesse was like, he he knew. He had the feeling. He was like, oh, we did it. We nailed it. And I don't know if I was more, not pessimistic, but like, unsure. I was like, I don't know, like this is a global stage. Like, who knows? 00:15:26:00 - 00:15:50:00 Zoe Like someone could have just like come out at it at a totally different angle and like, so I was a bit unsure. And I think it was mostly because it felt like the subject matter was just so different from what we've dealt with in the past. So it was like, I think when we were watching everyone at the, at the end, at the terrace, when they were doing the big reveal. 00:15:50:04 - 00:16:10:05 Zoe I think that's when it kind of set in. Then I was like, okay, like, maybe we have a chance and then we got shortlisted and then we're like, oh, okay, I think, I think we might have won. So that was like, it took me some time to like go around until I felt more confident with it. 00:16:10:07 - 00:16:32:06 Jesse I think I also don't want to act like I'm the not pessimistic one because, our work that we won the Canadian Division with, I was very like, basically until we submitted it, I was like, I don't see the I don't see this like it's it's interesting, but I don't see what's so good about it. So I would say we're 50/50 on... 00:16:32:08 - 00:16:52:01 Jesse And I mean that's good. I think that's you know, that's sort of, you know, having someone like a partner that's checking you in that way and pushing you. Like when we were in Cannes, that was making me advocate for the importance of what we were hitting on. The strength of the idea. You know, if someone says, you know, I don't I don't really see this, 00:16:52:03 - 00:17:19:13 Jesse That's something that you immediately, it forces you to advocate for the idea. And I know that was, you know, it really helped, even later into the presentation portion crystallize what was special in my mind about the whole thing. And the whole identity. And I think this was the case for the Canadian portion where I felt like, Zoe, you definitely had a way better vision for what it was going to be, but I was the one that was sort of saying, like, I don't see this. 00:17:19:13 - 00:17:34:05 Jesse I don't, I don't get it yet. But like I, and I think that's the thing and I think this is a great example, you know, like a good team is that, you know, I didn't see it, but I trusted you and it worked out all right. And I think you trusted me. Maybe you didn't actually, I don't know, until we won. 00:17:34:05 - 00:17:34:19 Jesse You're... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/37168240

EP47 - Cannes Lions 2025: Be Bold with Bob Park 06/20/2025

EP47 - Cannes Lions 2025: Be Bold with Bob Park Broadcasting live from Cannes Lions 2025, CMA CEO Alison Simpson discusses Bob Park's (Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada) bold decision to increase sponsorship of Canada Soccer amid multiple scandals. The condition? Complete equality for the women's soccer program. This purpose-driven stance delivered social change (equal pay for women's soccer) and business results (75% website traffic increase), taking GE's "good things for life" mantra further as "good things for everyone." 00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:10:20 - 00:00:13:19 Video We are announcing that we are building a women's professional soccer league in Canada. GE Appliances to supporting women's soccer, it's phenomenal. It changes women's and girls' lives. 00:00:31:15 - 00:01:01:10 Bob Um, It still chokes me up. That thing, where we were faced with a real dilemma at GE. A number of the corporate partners of Canada Soccer, our governing, national soccer organization, had pulled out of sponsorship because of these, scandals and issues that were affecting the organization. But, and I had about a week to think about it. 00:01:01:12 - 00:01:25:02 Bob And obviously, from a corporate standpoint, it would make the most sense to just simply, pull our funding. We always have clauses in our contract, that say, if this happens, you can pull out. But I thought about it and I thought, about, back to our purpose. And our purpose is really, as GE Appliances, we want to support the community. 00:01:25:02 - 00:01:49:13 Bob We, our motto is "good things for life", and that means good things for everyone. How can we support Canada Soccer, which, soccer in Canada, the beautiful game in Canada and then pull out of backing financially the number one organization in the country. No matter how small it is, no matter what it is that you're doing, bring the change that you want to see in the world. 00:01:49:15 - 00:01:56:10 Bob And after that, great things happen. Thank you very much. You. 00:01:56:12 - 00:02:26:23 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a story that is literally minutes ago, fresh on the stage from the prestigious Cannes Lions Festival of Creativity. We're exploring how innovative brand partnerships are reshaping the landscape for brands and sport marketing in Canada, and also really driving social change and important differences in our community and in equity in this case. So I'm thrilled to be joined by Bob Park, Chief Brand Officer for GE, Cafe, Monogram and Haier Appliances in Canada. 00:02:27:01 - 00:02:49:00 Alison Bob is in Cannes, where he presented as part of the Changemakers series, which has been a very inspiring session where marketers around the world that are renowned for driving important societal change and building brands and businesses have been invited to speak. And Bob, you did a phenomenal job. So thank you for representing Canada so well. Bob Thank you. Alison And now we're going to dive into some questions. 00:02:49:00 - 00:03:10:13 Alison And he's going to share, what he shared in Cannes and answer some of our questions around it. So Bob, it's an absolute a pleasure to have you with me today. Why don't you start, by talking a bit about GE Appliances Canada entered into a multi-year partnership with Canada Soccer in 2022. Now you were surprised by a big, unexpected press issue. 00:03:10:13 - 00:03:35:14 Alison And anytime you enter into a sponsorship, there's always potential that things will go awry. Yet when things went awry, you stayed through it and absolutely continue to have a partnership and evolved your approach. So it's a very inspiring story. The audience at Cannes were riveted, so I'd love you to share with our CMA Connect audience a bit about the sponsorship, what happened and why you continue to support Canada Soccer. 00:03:35:15 - 00:04:02:11 Bob I think the first thing I have to do is, go back to, our thinking process or our thought process around, sponsoring soccer in the beginning. And really what it came down to is soccer is the most participated sport in the country. And the reason for that is the barriers to entry for sports like hockey, as an example, are, are it's very expensive to send, if you have any children in hockey. 00:04:02:13 - 00:04:29:03 Bob It's an extreme, expense. Soccer is the one sport that, despite whatever your family's economic condition is, almost any family can afford to participate in. And a large percentage of of the kids and families participating in soccer are GE consumers either now or down the road. So that made a lot of sense. The other thing that we really liked about soccer is it's a very diverse sport. 00:04:29:03 - 00:04:50:11 Bob Worldwide, it is also the most participated sport in the world, and it's phenomenal how accepted it is. No matter what country you go, we're in France now, and, and it's called football here. And I was just talking to a couple of people getting off the stage of how much they loved the game. So Canada, believe it or not, the fastest growing sport is soccer. 00:04:50:11 - 00:05:11:01 Bob More people are playing soccer than ever before. Our major league teams are getting much more attention, and our national team. So it was a kind of a no-brainer knowing that World Cup is coming next year in 2026. You know, we had decided in 2019, how do we, how do we leverage that? How do we how do we approach our consumer? 00:05:11:01 - 00:05:45:09 Bob And it was to get involved with major league teams in Canada, Montreal, Toronto, Vancouver, and finally, really the crown jewel was Canada Soccer because we wanted to support our national teams, both, men and women. And of course, all the all the, grassroots programs across the country. Unfortunately, what had happened was, a number of different scandals, of which, a lot of the sponsors for Canada Soccer, in fact, had pulled out and and found it to be, untenable to maintain a relationship. 00:05:45:09 - 00:06:15:20 Bob And that was, you know, due to a few different, things that had happened. But probably the most prominent was, the women's soccer team going on strike, because of really unfair agreements or conditions as compared to the men's team. So an example of that was, they were having the 2023 Women's World Cup in Australia, and many of the women's players had to pay for their own plane tickets to go to the World Cup. 00:06:15:22 - 00:06:25:09 Bob That's entirely unheard of for virtually any country, much less Canada, where obviously the men's team were fully funded. 00:06:25:11 - 00:06:27:03 Alison And which team was performing significantly better? 00:06:27:05 - 00:06:50:12 Bob Yeah, the the women's team was challenging. They'd won a gold medal. Definitely one of the top teams in the world. So it really didn't make a lot of sense. And, the women rightfully, protested it. They kept playing their games but they donned purple shirts and really made it public. So as a brand that damaged our brand significantly. 00:06:50:18 - 00:07:14:14 Bob And any brand associated with Canada Soccer, because if you don't stand for that, it's going to do damage and you get social media inquiries and all, all types of questions around, why are you sponsoring this? Why is GE a part of, this terrible thing that is happening over at Canada Soccer? So I had about a week and I really thought about it. 00:07:14:14 - 00:07:51:06 Bob And I had the opportunity because it is a clause in most, sponsorship contracts to actually withdraw. And big names had already withdrawn their support of Canada Soccer, which is, predominantly financial and significant amounts of support. We are one of the largest sponsors of Canada Soccer. So it was really a crossroads. And the one thing that really ran through my mind was that, if I withdraw support, I'm actually truly withdrawing support from both the men's, women's and grassroots programs. 00:07:51:08 - 00:08:15:20 Bob And essentially what that does is, although I'm doing it in, I guess, protest of how they were treating the women's team, I'm, I'm completely dropping the funding as well. So that actually wasn't a winning situation for anybody. I thought and I thought about it. And finally we came up with the idea to write an open letter. 00:08:15:21 - 00:08:39:06 Bob So we wrote an open letter, and we distributed that across all, media, online, etc. and it got picked up by a number of different publications - sports, Globe and Mail, TSN, etc. and what the letter had said was the letter was, was from me. And what it said was, I'm actually going to, give more money to Canada Soccer, which was kind of odd. 00:08:39:06 - 00:09:04:02 Bob I was going in the reverse direction. However, it came with a caveat, and the caveat was that that money was to go to specific programs that we agreed to and outlined, for example, trainers for the women's team, flights being paid for, etc., etc. It was all earmarked for the women's soccer program. That got me some calls. 00:09:04:02 - 00:09:29:12 Bob It actually got me some calls from the CEO and Headquarters and they were wondering, what I was doing and, I explained it to them that, that this is what our brand stands for, and this is the only way to maintain our commitment and our purpose, but still show that GE does not accept inequity. 00:09:29:14 - 00:09:50:17 Bob Our brand is not meant that way. And this is not acceptable to us, but we don't want to pull support of our hugely successful men's and women's programs. So a little bit of touchy, touchiness there, bit touch and go. But then finally, it actually paid off. Fast forward, months later, the women received an equal program. 00:09:50:17 - 00:10:24:09 Bob They received equal pay. They are now on equal terms with, with the men's team. And and you could see now, it spiraled into Women's League, just, Women's Northern Super League just started in Canada. The game is changing just like it is for basketball and, and hockey and women's sports. So, you know, the Changemaker Series is really creating a spark and doing small things that can add up to eventually becoming something big. 00:10:24:10 - 00:10:48:01 Alison And you describe it as a small thing. But from where I'm sitting, it is anything but a small thing on a bunch of levels. So first, you're betting your personal brand and reputation and to some degree, your job on this. It's a very bold move. And when you were on stage at Cannes, you talked about the crucial role being bold plays and you embody that and this decision and then this approach. 00:10:48:03 - 00:11:05:14 Alison I'm also curious to hear how you sold that through, like getting getting a call from the CEO of the global organization absolutely gets your attention. And I'm curious to hear how you sold it through, and at any point, did you question whether you should be pursuing this or not? 00:11:05:15 - 00:11:32:22 Bob Okay. So I'll answer the sold it through. Well, the the truth of the matter is, the good thing about my organization is that I'm granted a lot of autonomy. So I didn't really have to sell it through. I just explained what I was doing and why, and there wasn't any objection. I don't think that the gravity of what it was was really understood at the time, because nobody knew what would... nobody have, 00:11:32:22 - 00:11:54:21 Bob no media outlet might have picked it up like, but I, I really talked about it as a move, really advertising that, GE doesn't stand for that. But we don't want to withdraw our support of Canada. So I thought it was a win-win when I sold it through. And I still think it's a win-win for everyone now, today. 00:11:54:21 - 00:12:21:16 Bob And and now that it's easy to say it now because the numbers and everything proved it. But back at that time, I did believe in it. And really the reason why, so answering the second question, that I believe in it, is that it goes back to what does your brand stand for? What does GE mean to people? Our mantra is, good things for life and taking that a step further, it's good things for everyone. 00:12:21:18 - 00:12:54:20 Bob Everyone, every family in Canada needs home appliances. So we, we sell our products to everyone up and down the gamut. Every culture that comes to Canada, new immigrants, newcomers, whether you're transgender, homosexual, it really is irrelevant to us. Everyone needs them. So we have to be that brand. We have to equally represent everyone in that spectrum. 00:12:54:22 - 00:13:10:21 Bob Because they're all GE consumers. So to me, running with a purpose like that and what we what the brand means it, it kind of was a no-brainer. So, maybe it was a little foolhardy, but we did it. 00:13:10:23 - 00:13:27:16 Alison You've embodied being bold and brave in your move, you've made a significant difference for soccer in Canada, women in particular. So I'd love to hear on a personal note, how did it feel when you found out that your efforts led to the women getting equal rights, including equal pay? 00:13:27:18 - 00:14:01:04 Bob That is huge to me. I think, I, I, I played a lot of sports when I was younger. And, you know, any kid that's ever picked up a hockey stick or a football or a soccer ball, etc., you always have those dreams of game seven over time and being something in sports and, in my own small way, I think personally speaking, I was able to contribute and any success that, the women's team has, I feel a very small part of it. 00:14:01:04 - 00:14:40:05 Bob So it's really it it's it's the passion that that that drives you. It really personally upset me, especially the reason why I bring up that that flight thing that they had to pay for their own flights and they don't they don't have, they didn't have athletic trainers. It really broke my heart in the sense that, we were expecting these players to go out, and for the highest honour, to represent our country and the only other way to represent our country in that in such a manner is is going to war. 00:14:40:05 - 00:15:02:23 Bob And for that we give so much credit for. But these, these players sacrifice so much. And whether men or women, to represent us, and to not give them the basics, really what it is, to to give them the best opportunity that we possibly can for them to compete is just so, it was such an atrocity to me. 00:15:03:03 - 00:15:22:12 Bob And then to have it, without equity, was even, was even worse to me. So to be a small part of changing that dynamic was, was a huge impact on us. So seeing them successful and playing and the growth of the women's, women's, Northern Super League is amazing to me. I love it. 00:15:22:14 - 00:15:39:17 Alison Well, it's incredible to me as a Canadian, when I first heard I, I knew that they weren't getting equal pay, but I had no appreciation that many of them had to work part time jobs to pay for themselves and the fact that they didn't have trainers, didn't have to, had to pay their own flights, and yet were still performing at the level they were, 00:15:39:17 - 00:15:48:21 Alison and you think you can't help but think if we support them the way we should be, let's see what they can do. So thank you for being, you call it a small part of that, but I give you more credit than that. 00:15:48:22 - 00:15:50:08 Bob Thank you, thank you. 00:15:50:10 - 00:15:59:08 Alison Now, as marketers, everything we do is about the brand purpose. It's also about building the business. So I'd love you to share some of the business results too. 00:15:59:10 - 00:16:35:09 Bob So I think the way that you measure anything obviously, and in our world is definitely sales-based. And really what what marketing essentially, what we're trying to do as marketers is really put ourselves in that in a consideration set. There's so many different digital, KPI and different words that you can use for it. But at the end of the day, whether it's a chocolate bar, a t-shirt, whatever it is, in our case a washing machine or, or a stove, are we in that consideration set when that person comes to that time to purchase? 00:16:35:09 - 00:16:59:15 Bob And are we able to present why buy GE, in our case? And a lot of cases we're finding, let's say, for example, newcomers coming to Canada, they don't have General Electric here in France. So they're completely unaware of the brand. But they are aware of soccer, and they're fans of soccer. One of the first things they do when they come here is get acclimatized to what's going on with football in Canada. 00:16:59:17 - 00:17:23:09 Bob So all the background of why we got into this, we did so much research, and we knew that there was an entire market that we could start convincing to become at least someone that would consider a GE appliance and look at it, if not become a purchaser of a GE appliance. That's ultimately in any marketing organization, 00:17:23:09 - 00:17:52:05 Bob that is what we're trying to accomplish. So, oddly enough, doing purpose-built work like like we did with, with Quinn, the first non-binary, national ambassador of a corporate ambassador, to what we did to support the women's national team, it all paid off, year over year. And heading into 26, exponentially. 00:17:52:07 - 00:18:37:12 Bob We expect about probably about 75% increase in a research study that we do annually. And it's specifically targeted to, would you, would you consider buying a GE appliance? Would you recommend a GE appliance? Very simple questions. And that number, that statistic, with 12 million soccer fans in Canada, is increasing roughly about 10 to 20% every year, year over year. By 2026, which is the World Cup next year, that 12 million fans is going to become around 20 or 22 million fans, we predict, of soccer because of what a World Cup does when it comes to a nation. We're going to be primed and we're going to be a part of it, and it's simply doing things that are true to our brand identity. 00:18:40:09 - 00:18:46:22 Alison Well, that 10 to 20% annual increase in those sorts of studies is a significant increase. 00:18:46:23 - 00:19:15:03 Bob It really, it really is. More than actually what we had budgeted for or what we had forecasted. I was thinking more in the single digits, but it's really, really cool how this stuff really resonated. This, for example, the sport, the women's team, it shot up our website visits by 75% the next month, like literally, after that open letter went out. 00:19:15:03 - 00:19:39:12 Bob So people now are becoming much more interested and finding out about GE, it's it's where it wasn't in their consideration set before and have that emotional attachment with a soccer fan or a Canadian or a woman that just wants to see women's equity is really something you can't buy. You have to be bold. You have to, you have to do things that are true to your purpose. 00:19:39:14 - 00:20:06:03 Alison But I also love when it would be reasonable for our audience to say, okay, so why would an appliance company partner with soccer and part of your rationale you just shared is brilliant. Like if soccer is more global than GE is, we are a country of immigrants and newcomers to a large degree, and you saw an opportunity to leverage that to grow the awareness and the affinity for GE. That makes so much sense and great insight. 00:20:06:07 - 00:20:11:16 Bob Yeah, I mean, it was, it was, it seemed so logical at the time. Yeah. And it worked out. 00:20:11:17 - 00:20:21:10 Alison So our audience are, I'm sure, going to be very curious to hear what your plans are, to the degree that you can share them, with soccer leading into 2026. 00:20:21:12 - 00:20:56:01 Bob So 2026 is so exciting. The reason why, what makes it so exciting is if you think of any sporting event in Canada, whether it's you, your grandparents. In the last 100 years or more, in fact, the existence of Canada, an international sporting event, or in fact, any event of this magnitude, it's never... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/37088935

EP46 - Cannes Lions 2025: What's Driving Creative Excellence with Susan Irving & Bryan Kane 06/17/2025

EP46 - Cannes Lions 2025: What's Driving Creative Excellence with Susan Irving & Bryan Kane Broadcasting live from the 2025 Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, CMA CEO Alison Simpson speaks with Susan Irving (CMO, Kruger Products) and Bryan Kane (CEO, FCB Canada) to discuss FCB Canada's Gold Lion win with SickKids Foundation and why Susan and Bryan keep returning to the festival. From Susan's three C's of Cannes and Bryan identifying areas to lean into, discover the insights shaping the future of marketing, creativity and accountability. 00:00:00:01 - 00:00:10:23 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:11:01 - 00:00:32:16 Alison Simpson Welcome to the CMA Connect podcast. I'm Alison Simpson, and I am thrilled to be joined today by Susan Irving, the chief marketing officer for Kruger Products, and Bryan Kane, the CEO for FCB Canada. And Bryan, we'll start with a huge congratulations. You brought home Canada's first of hopefully many Gold Lions for your work with Sick Kids yesterday. How does it feel to be leading the charge? 00:00:32:18 - 00:00:50:22 Bryan Kane Well, it was a thrill for the team and everybody back home. There's an interesting thing with Cannes, where there's just a few of us that are here really representing the entire team, but getting the texts flooding in from clients and the rest of the agency was awesome to be able to share that with everybody. 00:00:51:00 - 00:01:02:18 Alison Simpson And, Susan, I know you've been here in past years. In fact, you judged, I think, two years ago. So how does it feel to be back and have a bit more flexibility in your schedule so you can actually take advantage of the programming? 00:01:02:20 - 00:01:27:17 Susan Irving It's always great to be here. It's my third year. And I think every year you're really just trying to get used to the craziness. I always say, if you've ever been to Vegas, it's Vegas times 100 for the marketer and creative individual. But it is nice this year not to be locked in a room for three days and being able to take advantage, of all the content. 00:01:28:06 - 00:01:42:03 Susan Irving If you've been here before, you know that it's just not the content here at the Palais. But then there's all the duelling beaches. So, it's always a struggle. I always tell people, register for everything, and then on the day, decide where you're going to go. 00:01:42:05 - 00:02:01:12 Alison Simpson So this is my first time back since I was agency side 15 years ago. And how much it has changed the volume of opportunities and calibre of speakers is unbelievable. So Susan, that is really, really good advice. So I'd love to hear from both of you. You've both been here multiple times. What keeps bringing you back? And Bryan, why don't you start? 00:02:01:14 - 00:02:31:15 Bryan Kane Sure. I think, Cannes does an incredible job of really looking at where the industry is going. So it's an opportunity to come together, as you mentioned, with, like, world class speakers. The content's incredible. But it's very forward-looking. So it's really a week where you can take a step back, reflect. And at the end of the day, it's also an opportunity to sharpen your tools where you get to take a step out of the business and really focus on learning and identifying those things that you need to to really lean into. 00:02:31:16 - 00:02:38:02 Bryan Kane So when you come home, you've got a really clear focus on what the keys are that you need to be looking at. 00:02:38:04 - 00:02:59:00 Susan Irving Yeah. Well said Bryan, if for me, you know, as a marketer, you think about the four P's, I think about it as the three C's of Cannes. Being the creative, the content and the connections that you make here. And, as Bryan said, it really is the time to to listen and get different perspectives on different businesses. 00:02:59:03 - 00:03:19:21 Susan Irving Listen to where the industry's going. And sit back and figure out what is then applicable to that, to your business. It just gives you so much hope and optimism and inspiration to see so much creativity across the board. And again, how do you bring it home to inspire your own teams and your own agencies? To get to great work. 00:03:19:23 - 00:03:21:16 Bryan Kane With. 00:03:21:18 - 00:03:39:14 Alison Simpson Very well said. And being live in Cannes means you're going to hear lots of background noise too. So that's just indicative of the level of energy that we're all surrounded by. So we're only on a couple of days into the festival, so it's still early, but I'd love to hear a particular key takeaway that you have or a presentation that really resonated with you. 00:03:39:14 - 00:03:41:10 Alison Simpson Susan, do you want to start? 00:03:41:12 - 00:04:16:18 Susan Irving Cannes was kicked off with some marketer of the year, which was Apple. And, you know, they're just a phenomenal organization. When you look at creativity and, you know, really thinking about hope and optimism and the fact that AI is is a big trend yet again. But really talking about, human emotion. And I can't deliver human connectivity and emotion and the way that Apple is just innovating and stepping forward, that constantly solving, a human problem or driving a human emotion. 00:04:16:20 - 00:04:54:17 Susan Irving The second one, we were at Salesforce speech, yesterday. And again, it was Scott Galloway, who always says it like it is, he's quite blunt and straightforward, but the biggest message I got from him was stop thinking about AI as, as a tool and start thinking about it as a collaborator, because when, human detail, and human thought combined with power of AI, your accuracy will be that much higher when you think about it as a collaborator versus a tool. 00:04:55:00 - 00:05:17:03 Bryan Kane I think from an actual sort of time spent in my first day, there's an opportunity in Cannes, in the basement, where they post all the shortlists in the press for it, so you can really dive into the work. And I just felt my tank getting filled, looking at all this incredible work from around the world and really benchmarking ourselves against the absolute best. 00:05:17:03 - 00:05:37:17 Bryan Kane Not in a category, not in a country, but just world class work. So the time spent in the basement is something that I cherish and try and make sure I squeeze some some time away as a guilty pleasure, just to sort of soak in the work for sure. I think also like in the context of some of the AI conversations, it's a theme of pretty much every talk. 00:05:38:07 - 00:06:12:04 Bryan Kane But what I've noticed, the difference between last year and this year is it's really stripped out. AI is being the idea, and it's really how did I help the idea? And really what is the role of AI? And so seeing the progression just in the 12 months since we were here last, has been really interesting. And I think that that continual evolution of us understanding how to harness the power of AI as opposed to it's a checkbox, that we need to integrate within our creative process so that that was sort of a takeaway, but it wasn't one talk, it just the theme, this sort of emerging. 00:06:12:06 - 00:06:30:12 Susan Irving What just to build on that point was interesting to think about three years ago, the conversations were what is AI and how do I even use it? And even last year it was here's some tools. Here's how you can use it safely. But you're right. This year it's how did you use AI as a tool, to make your creative process better. 00:06:30:12 - 00:06:34:20 Susan Irving So you're right, it was quite interesting. 00:06:34:21 - 00:06:49:16 Alison Simpson So you both are clearly immersing yourself in the festival and all the benefits that it brings with it. So I'd love to hear what unexpected insight or new learning that you think will shift either the future of creativity or marketing. 00:06:49:18 - 00:07:08:05 Bryan Kane I think, one thing that's emerged is the need for optimism in the world. It's come up a couple of different times. It was a theme through the show last night when they were recognizing all the Gold and Grand Prix winners, but as I was sitting with that thought, it was the important role that brands play in our lives. 00:07:08:05 - 00:07:31:01 Bryan Kane And brands have never been more important to give meaning and cultural context in a world that you know is increasingly chaotic. But that brands can be that anchor point for consumers and the need for optimism within brands, and to find ways to bring joy to people's lives, to help them, save time with something Scott Galloway was talking about. 00:07:31:06 - 00:07:41:16 Bryan Kane But the role that brands play and the importance was one where, you know, early in the week, but that was a reflection. And I think I'll sit with that through the rest of the week and build out that thought. 00:07:42:19 - 00:08:14:15 Susan Irving For me, it's also innovation. There seems to be a lot more of a trend, this year on innovation. One of the difference that, the schedule has done, they've now kind of shown you paths, that you can take that I think distills, the schedule a little bit more. But last night at the awards, just even after Bryan Ncbi won gold, they showed, a competition that they have where brands needed to solve, an innovation problem and come up with a solution for the world. 00:08:14:17 - 00:08:25:21 Susan Irving So again, what's exciting is, is leveraging creativity to come up with future innovation to solve world problems. 00:08:25:23 - 00:08:50:04 Alison Simpson And so both great insights and Bryan, building on euros, we had CMA's event case for Canada last week. And Kantar shared that only Canadians only think 13% of brands currently understand what their lives are about and the challenges they face, which is a huge opportunity to bring more positivity and purpose and have brands take a more of a leadership role in helping Canadians get to a better place in their lives. 00:08:50:04 - 00:09:04:07 Alison Simpson So nice to see the parallels. Absolutely. So still early in the week, we'd love to hear from each of you what you're most excited about or looking forward to in the remainder of the week. Who wants to kick us off? 00:09:04:09 - 00:09:20:21 Susan Irving I think there's a couple of things I always love the award shows. Obviously I think the stats are only 10% get shortlisted. Yeah, it's only 10% get shortlisted from the entries and only 5% three 3 to 5% medal and is. 00:09:20:21 - 00:09:22:01 Bryan Kane One Grand Prix. 00:09:22:07 - 00:09:41:11 Susan Irving And point one was the number that he said last night. So I love going to the shows, because you get to see the best of the best and see everything that's been judged. But then secondly, I, I love the speakers. I love going to the CMO, speakers. I love seeing all the celebrities that they have this year, which seems to be a bigger trend. 00:09:41:11 - 00:09:54:06 Susan Irving We just saw Serena Williams, the Kelce brothers were here. But it's just really understanding the different roles and different elements there are in terms of, you know, driving brand equity. 00:09:54:08 - 00:10:25:22 Bryan Kane The part of the week that I love again, is sort of rooted in the work, which is in the basement in the bowels of the Palais here. And there's, there's sessions every day, which is inside the jury room where the jury share the deliberation of the work and why one piece was awarded or maybe not, coming in, there's certain pieces that people expect to do really well, but really understanding the insights and how they just tour the work apart to really understand what was the insight, what was the driver and did that translate into the work. 00:10:25:22 - 00:10:57:06 Bryan Kane And then again, this really critical lens on results. And were these results clearly tied to the work, as opposed to a general business result? And having seen that evolve over the last number of years has been really interesting. The accountability behind the work and really work that is, is proving that creativity is an economic multiplier. And there's a direct straight line, between all the work and the immediate and long term business results. 00:10:57:08 - 00:11:18:06 Alison Simpson That is a fabulous note to end. Because it helps give our compression even more credibility. We are such a powerful part of building businesses and helping drive Canada's economy, and creativity is absolutely the accelerator for that. So it's wonderful to be learning as you are here, of the very real impact and able to quantify that. So Susan and Bryan, many, many thanks. 00:11:18:06 - 00:11:23:14 Alison Simpson I know it's an incredibly busy week and you've got a jam packed agenda. And I really appreciate you making time raising. 00:11:23:14 - 00:11:28:10 Bryan Kane Thank you. So. 00:11:28:12 - 00:11:41:01 Announcer Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit theCMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing thought leadership, news, and industry trends. /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/37046090

EP45 - Actionable Data Strategies, Privacy, AI & Enterprise Leadership with Jan Kestle 06/11/2025

EP45 - Actionable Data Strategies, Privacy, AI & Enterprise Leadership with Jan Kestle How can marketers harness data-driven insights while navigating privacy and emerging technologies? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Jan Kestle, founder and President of Environics Analytics, to discuss why data strategies must be enterprise-led, moving from "so what?" insights to "now what?" outcomes. Their conversation covers privacy-compliant collaboration platforms that reveal which advertising works, how privacy compliance enables effective marketing, and AI's role in enhancing data interpretation. 00;00;01;23 - 00;00;06;09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00;00;22;17 - 00;00;49;16 Alison Welcome to CMA Connect, the podcast where we dive deep into the world of marketing with industry leaders and innovators. Today, I am absolutely thrilled to welcome a true pioneer in the realms of data, statistics and marketing, Jan Nestle. Jan is the founder and president of Environics Analytics. With over five decades of experience, Jan has been at the forefront of using data and analytics to solve complex business problems and help shape the marketing landscape in Canada and beyond. 00;00;49;18 - 00;01;17;08 Alison Jan's journey is nothing short of inspirational. From her early days at the Ontario Statistical Centre to founding Environics Analytics in 2003, she is consistently pushed the boundaries of what's possible with data-driven insights. Her contributions to the industry are massive and include developing the Prism Segmentation system and the Envision Business Intelligent platform, tools that have revolutionized how marketers understand and can reach their audiences. 00;01;17;10 - 00;01;42;08 Alison In recognition of her groundbreaking work. Jan was honoured with the Canadian Marketing Association's Lifetime Achievement Award in 2022, truly cementing her status as a trailblazer in our field. In today's episode, we'll explore Jan's really fascinating career path and discuss a range of topics that are reshaping the marketing landscape. From the evolving role of data and predictive analytics, to solving business problems to navigating data privacy complexities, 00;01;42;10 - 00;02;01;23 Alison we plan to delve into the future of data-driven marketing. We're also going to touch on AI, enhanced customer journey mapping, ethical considerations and hyper-personalized marketing, and the importance of data sharing and driving business success. There is no shortage of great topics that Jan can speak to, and it is an absolute pleasure, Jan, to welcome you to CMA Connect today. 00;02;01;26 - 00;02;20;00 Jan Well, thank you very much and thank you for having me. I love working with the CMA. I think the CMA in the past few years has done an incredible job of having conversations that are very important to marketers and to the whole business community in Canada. So it's my pleasure to be with you here today, Alison. 00;02;20;02 - 00;02;40;21 Alison And well, thank you so much. Jan, I don't use the term pioneer lightly. You've been a pioneer in data statistics in the marketing professions. The fact that you've been a leading innovator in all three is also a sign that you didn't really take a traditional path to your career. You also succeeded as a woman at a time that was, very sadly, very rare. 00;02;40;24 - 00;02;52;23 Alison And I really find your story inspiring, both from a professional perspective and also from a personal perspective. I know many of our listeners would as well. So I'd love to start by having you share a little bit about your journey. 00;02;52;25 - 00;03;22;06 Jan Sure. Thank you. Well, sometimes when I think about my long career, which I guess part of what makes me a pioneer is it goes so far back, is I think about three aspects to my career. First of all, as you mentioned, I worked as a government statistician, and then I worked as a sales and product development person and eventually a leader in a company that was well-established and owned by various players in the information business. 00;03;22;08 - 00;03;41;01 Alison And then finally, in the latter part of my career, actually started a business and built that. And for some people, it's kind of like, well, how did you decide to go from a government job to leading and working in the private sector and then running a pretty interesting business in the private sector? Why did you decide to start your own business? 00;03;41;01 - 00;04;03;13 Jan And always gives me pause when I think about it that way, because to me, it's been a continuum of figuring out how data and mathematics can really help simulate realities and help people solve problems, whether it's for business or social services or, you know, how we make Canada run better? I've always been excited about being able to use information to do that. 00;04;03;18 - 00;04;32;24 Jan The truth is, I, I have a degree in applied math, which is kind of like a combination of math and physics, and I graduated in a class of four women out of 140 classmates. And it was difficult, even being, you know, a good student and high in the rankings of my class. It was difficult to to get jobs for women in those scientific, and honestly, in any business in that day and age. 00;04;32;24 - 00;05;04;18 Alison So I was very excited to take on my first job as a survey statistician and editor in the provincial government. And that was when we didn't even have computers, never mind AI. We put data on spreadsheets that was actual pieces of paper. We edited questionnaires with red pencils. We shared our work with our partner across the table to do QA, and then we added up rows and columns in order to create data that went into large statistical outputs. 00;05;04;18 - 00;05;31;18 JAn I always say I got really good training on thinking about what the data are telling you and what's missing and what makes sense by being right down in the trenches. Eventually, in that particular role, I moved on to doing a lot of negotiating for the priorities for Ontario and the federal provincial context. But eventually I was leading that organization, and I, I enjoyed very much the work that I got to do in the policy side. 00;05;31;20 - 00;06;03;28 Jan But my choices for a new challenge were to leave the statistics and the data part of of the work and move into more of a government policy job. But I had the opportunity to go and work for the first company in Canada that took data and demographics and created customized versions of that that businesses could use. Compusearch was the pioneering company in that field, and they'd been around for about 15 years and mainly working for retailers. 00;06;04;00 - 00;06;27;07 Jan But they started to branch out and they recruited someone who really understood packaged goods, and they understood someone who worked in the financial sector. And they came and recruited me as someone who worked with governments and not-for-profits. And I joined, actually only took me like five days to make a decision to leave my pension and all that government work and take this opportunity. 00;06;27;07 - 00;07;02;23 Jan And I went into sales and I'd never been in sales. I'd done a lot of business and relationships, but my first job there was selling the data that they had produced back to the government sector, and that was exciting. And led me to an opportunity to work on the product side, is how do we take data and turn it into information, because many organizations can't really invest in building data and doing the work from the ground up. You actually have to turn data into a product or a service that can be actionable, that can make a difference to a community or to a business. 00;07;02;23 - 00;07;26;00 Jan So I went from being the statistician to being the sales person and understanding my customer's needs, and then going into product, and then eventually to president of that organization during its largest period of growth, which was the time period when people got computers on their desks, desktop computers, we went into desktop mapping. It was just the very beginning. 00;07;26;02 - 00;07;52;06 Jan It wasn't even the CRM era. It was what we call database marketing. When we were starting to mine data and combine the kind of data that brands had about their customers, quite limited, with the data that we had about postal codes. So I always think, you know, all these parts of this journey really enabled me to think about how to make data help people make good decisions. 00;07;52;08 - 00;08;21;26 Jan And eventually Compusearch was sold a few times and, and, you know, kind of went the route of what often happens with little businesses when they become successful. They they kind of became a part of selling software. And you know, a more bundled solution. And a few of us had a lot of feedback from our former customers to say, we really want people who focus on the data and the customized solutions or implementing the standard solutions in a customized way. 00;08;21;26 - 00;08;52;21 Jan And so, you know, the story is pretty well known. I decided to start a new business basically replicating building the data, but also helping people understand how to use the data. And that's what we started Environics Analytics. Our funding came from the traditional market research company, Environics Research, that had built a niche for itself, not only measuring political polling and consumer research, but measuring people's values and psychographics. 00;08;52;21 - 00;09;25;26 Jan And so they had this idea of bringing those two worlds together. And so Environics and ourselves are a little team of former geo demographers started Environics Analytics. Twenty years, 300 people, you know, a thousand customers and lots of databases and lots of data development. I still feel like we're continuing that legacy of help people take data and turn it into information that enables them to take action that can actually make their organizations more successful and ultimately make people's lives better. 00;09;25;26 - 00;09;49;15 Jan I think we know data for good. If you use data for health care or education or, you know, not-for-profit, that's considered data for good. But I also think it's data for good if you can get the right messages to the right people at the right time, get the right products on the right shelves, you know, organize people's busy lives so that they can really make good decisions and the data are there for them. 00;09;49;15 - 00;10;18;22 Jan So that's a bit of a long story, but that's kind of how I went from one data-driven organization to another and ended up building Environics Analytics. And then of course, the last phase of that story was when my partners and I sold the business to BCE, and we're now a Bell- backed company, but we still run an independent company where Bell is a customer and treated on a level playing field with other customers. 00;10;18;24 - 00;10;38;11 Jan But the great thing about that part of the journey is that they saw the need for Canada to really have a vibrant data business, and they have invested and supported us to continue to offer data and analytics services to the Canadian business community and their customers. 00;10;38;13 - 00;11;01;21 Alison Their story is so inspiring on so many different levels. There's so much curiosity that you've experienced, there's so much openness to try new things, so much innovation, and having a real vision for where you could take your skills next so I'm inspired on all of those levels. I also love the fact that for someone who started their career before computers existed, there can be a lot of biases around that 00;11;01;21 - 00;11;09;29 Alison you have to be a digital native to really get technology and to be visionary about technology. And you are such a wonderful example of that as total BS. 00;11;10;05 - 00;11;16;07 Jan Before we had desktop computers, I have to say we have computers! 00;11;16;10 - 00;11;38;11 Alison Good clarification. Well, and you continue to be very tech savvy and leverage technology and being very future focused. So when I think about some of the stereotypes that exist about you have to be a digital native to get it and to lead it, but you're a great example that that's simply not true. And then being one of four woman in a class of 140, to what degree did that experience, 00;11;38;11 - 00;11;43;26 Alison What skills to that experience give you that you think have benefited you throughout your career? 00;11;43;29 - 00;12;07;00 Jan Well, throughout my career I've always been sometimes the only or one of the very few women in the room. Even still now, because being at the executive level in businesses and being in businesses that tend to be more tech- oriented, we just have not, we've had progress, but we haven't had enough women get into those jobs and into those levels. 00;12;07;02 - 00;12;31;02 Jan I think the thing that, you know, you have to have a voice, and I think the most important thing for young women to know is, first of all, now I think they are far more welcomed and appreciated. I think that men in business understand the role that diversity brings to the table. So we talk about diversity in terms of of women in leadership and women in, in certain roles. 00;12;31;02 - 00;12;59;01 Jan But I think organizations that are committed to promoting women and, you know, fighting racism and fighting all different kinds of discrimination against special populations are really understanding that the talent pool that they're unlocking is tremendously valuable. And you're not leaving half the population or a third of the population, or 10% of the population on the table, by just hiring and promoting the same kind of people. 00;12;59;01 - 00;13;43;16 Jan So I learned by doing and and, you know, when I think back of the people that I highlighted and promoted in those different organizations, I'm proud of the fact that we always believed in diversity and equity and inclusion. And sometimes it was harder than other times to implement. One of the things that we do a lot of work on now is in the educational community, where we go into universities and we go into colleges and even into high schools and into women's organizations and into STEM organizations to help people understand how exciting and interesting these jobs are. 00;13;43;18 - 00;14;09;10 Jan Because sometimes if, you know, you're a high school student and struggling with math, or you might be really interested in geography, you might have no idea what the options are in the data and analytics space for you. You might think it's only coding and IT, but we're hiring a lot of people out of engineering. And you know what, the engineering classes have switched and the engineering classes are sometimes you know the majority are women. 00;14;09;10 - 00;14;21;18 Jan So through the years, times have changed. But we've also, as a team, stuck to that objective to make sure that you're using the whole talent pool and that you're using it effectively. 00;14;21;20 - 00;14;37;13 Alison It's another great example of how have you've led and positively impacted the profession. So a huge thank you for that. Now, with your wealth of experience, I know our listeners would absolutely benefit from hearing your views on the pivotal role that data, statistics and software have in helping us solve business problems. 00;14;37;15 - 00;14;57;24 Jan I remember about ten years ago we did a roadshow. We also like to get out across the country. We would do a breakfast and we'd go to Vancouver and then we'd go to Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, you know, stop in Quebec City and Montreal and then on to Halifax and other places and actually do a roadshow on the things we were doing. 00;14;57;24 - 00;15;28;18 Jan And I remember being really struck, I want to say about, 2016, when every journal with you Reading Inc. magazine or even Forbes or the Harvard Business Reviews, all the articles were about data-driven decision making. And I used to make a joke to say, well, what the hell else would you do, right? But I also know the extent to which we were selling people sophisticated models to find the best locations for retail sites. 00;15;28;20 - 00;15;54;25 Jan Or we were looking at, you know, early media, mixed models and channel optimization, looking at ROI across, you know, online and offline advertising. We were doing all this great work, and yet so many people were still using gut feel and the way we used to do it, that inertia and changing to new ways of doing things, is really hard for people. 00;15;54;28 - 00;16;21;17 Jan And so once more data became available, everyone was talking about using data. What I saw was a lot of organizations investing in data and investing in technology, but I was also very worried throughout the 2000s with a real backlash, which says, well, we're spending all this money on data, we're investing in technology, but is it really making a difference? 00;16;21;19 - 00;16;54;09 Jan And I think we now are at this stage where there's a lot more recognition that it does make a difference. But I think that it's pivotal if an organization has a data and analytics strategy, and it can't be something that comes from the ground up, even from the marketers, as much as the marketers I 100% support marketers have a role, but the IT department, the actual data scientists, they can't really develop a data strategy. 00;16;54;09 - 00;17;15;17 Jan It has to come from the business strategy. We have to know what are the problems we're trying to solve and the extent to which even C-suite, the CFO, the CEO, the COO will collaborate with the CTO and the CMO and we say, look, here's all the data we have. Here's what we need to do to harness it. Here's the data we don't have. 00;17;15;17 - 00;17;37;06 Jan Here's how we can get it. Here are the problems we're trying to solve. But then the other key question is, to what extent can we take this great insight and actually put it into practice? Because the last thing that you want to do if you're in the data business, is produce interesting studies and have people say, so what? You want people to say, now what? 00;17;37;06 - 00;18;04;26 Jan And the thing that's made a big difference is people's recognition that you design your data strategy and your analytics strategy around your business goals, understanding, how much can you actually go and implement, and how can you tell whether or not it's working? And I'm very excited about the extent to which we see that enterprise perspective, the silos in different parts of organizations being broken down. 00;18;04;26 - 00;18;17;20 Jan We're not there yet, but I think there's a recognition that there's an enterprise play for data and analytics, and that organizations will do much better when they have a strategy that's led from the top. 00;18;17;23 - 00;18;37;08 Alison That makes infinite sense. And I love the pivot from instead of it being so what to now what? That strong action orientation is critical for any business and critical for any marketer in order to build the business and build their career. So how do you see the relationship between data analytics and consumer trust evolving in the coming years? 00;18;37;11 - 00;18;58;22 Jan Well, when we're talking about data and analytics, the biggest application that we work in with marketers is really understanding consumers and creating consumer insight. You know, as much as we produce all this great third party data that comes from external sources and is anonymized and aggregated and delivered at the postal code, and I love the data, it's extremely useful. 00;18;58;22 - 00;19;25;28 Jan Biggest asset that brands have is the data that they have about their own customers. You know, we now start talking about first party... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/36942585

EP44 - The Impact of Economic Uncertainty in Canada with Scott Megginson and Sean Martin 05/28/2025

EP44 - The Impact of Economic Uncertainty in Canada with Scott Megginson and Sean Martin How are tariff disputes and economic uncertainty reshaping Canadian consumer behaviour? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada and Sean Martin, General Manager at Numerator. Their conversation explores the nuances of the "Buy Canadian" sentiment, its impact on domestic and international brands, and provides strategic advice for marketers navigating this complex landscape. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:21 - 00:00:46:03 Alison In today's episode, we're tackling a topic that's been dominating headlines and boardroom discussions alike. The shifting landscape of Canadian consumer behaviour in the wake of recent tariff disputes, and the global political and economic uncertainty. Joining me today are two of Canada's top insights and analytics leaders. Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada, is a veteran with over 30 years of market research. 00:00:46:05 - 00:01:14:17 Alison He's held significant roles at Angus Reid Group, Warner Lambert Canada, PepsiCo Canada and has led Kantar Canada for the past 15 years. Scott, also a regular industry speaker, the past Chair of Queen's University Dean's Council of Arts and Science and the founding president of the Canadian Advisory Council for the Insights Association. Joining Scott and me today is Sean Martin, general manager at Numerator, and a trusted advisor to many of the largest companies across North America. 00:01:14:19 - 00:01:35:09 Alison Sean also started his career working for leading brands and held senior roles at Mars, GSK and Procter Gamble before taking the lead role at Numerator, where he's led the Canadian business for five years. Scott can be sharing key insights from what Kantar is seeing about Canadians perspective and planned behaviours, and how they're changing as a result of the chaos that's emerging from south of the border. 00:01:35:11 - 00:02:01:23 Alison He's also covering important considerations for brands. Sean will complement this by highlighting the actual ways that Canadians' behaviours have changed when it comes to their purchase decisions and actions. Together, the three of us are diving into how Canadian consumers are responding to the call to buy Canadian, as well as the risks and opportunities for both domestic and international brands, and the very delicate balance between patriotic messaging and authentic brand positioning. 00:02:02:01 - 00:02:16:01 Alison From the pitfalls of maple washing to the surprising resilience of shopping habits, our guests will share their latest research and offer valuable advice for marketers navigating through these turbulent waters. Welcome Scott and Sean, it is an absolute pleasure to have you here today. 00:02:16:02 - 00:02:17:02 Scott Thank you Alison. 00:02:17:04 - 00:02:19:09 Sean Thank you Alison. Wonderful to be here. 00:02:19:11 - 00:02:28:17 Alison Now, I'd love to have you both answer my first question. Can you each share what your organizations are doing to track Canadian consumer behaviour? And, Scott, why don't you kick things off? 00:02:28:22 - 00:02:29:15 Sean We've been looking 00:02:29:15 - 00:02:59:14 Scott at different ways to to really understand what Canadian consumers are feeling, because there's just there's so much out there and there's so much in chat and social and everywhere else. And that's one of the first things that we started looking at, was, using our, we call it DX analytics, but really, analyzing search and social signals to get a good understanding of how Canadian consumers are seeing brands. 00:02:59:15 - 00:03:28:15 Scott I mean, do they see them as Canadian or not Canadian? With all the confusion of being in Canada and product of Canada and such, but also the sentiment, and that's been giving us some useful insights, both for Canadian brands and for multinationals. Secondly, there's a lot of polling and a lot of attitudinal data floating around out there, but we wanted to go a little bit deeper, and we've been engaging our Canada Monitor team to really look at the trends and how the values have shifted underneath that. 00:03:28:17 - 00:03:46:21 Scott And we've just launched a global study. We call it Barometer. And we did this during Covid as well. But it's a global study that we're going to have results for pretty soon and we'll be sharing them out with people and how consumers in different markets are really seeing tariffs and and what their responses are and with some of their shopping habits. 00:03:46:23 - 00:04:10:19 Scott And the third piece I think is important. It's been going back what we've learned. I mean, we've been through different crises before. I mentioned Covid. We've gone through different financial crises in the past as well. And we have a lot of learnings for brands and for advertising that we've gone back to look at and pull the dust off a bit, but also try to see which are relevant to bring back to the market for consideration. 00:04:10:20 - 00:04:13:23 Scott So those are your three areas for us basically. 00:04:14:01 - 00:04:27:01 Alison That's great. Scott. It will be fascinating to see how the global study around how countries around the world are reacting to tariffs. That will be very valuable insights for our listeners and certainly for Canadian brands and businesses. And Sean, what about you? 00:04:27:02 - 00:04:56:07 Sean Yeah. Thanks, Alison. For for those that you don't know Numerator we are the largest single source data lake in Canada. And so in a nutshell we collect 12 million receipts from 165,000 Canadians, including Amazon purchases, Walmart purchases as well as hundreds of demographics. And we put it all into our data lake. And with that, we seek to understand what people are actually doing with their purchases and how their opinions are changing, how their sentiment changes, and how it's impacting purchases. 00:04:56:09 - 00:05:29:15 Sean As it specifically relates to this, this Buy Canadian and tariff phenomenon, we've gone ahead and segmented our panel based on shoppers; claimed sentiment around their intentionality. Therefore, we now have segments for people that claim to buy Canadian, who want to avoid U.S. retailers or avoid U.S. brands. And so we're working with our clients to not only understand how their consumers are thinking about it, where they sit in this range, but also tracking their actual purchases and seeing if the sentiments they claim are results in real actions at the store. 00:05:29:17 - 00:05:54:10 Alison And that's a really powerful part of the conversation we can have today. It's one thing to understand how Canadians across the country are feeling and planning to behave, but to actually be able to back that up with actual change in behaviour will make for a very fascinating conversation. So thank you both for being here today. Now, Scott, what is your research showing when it comes to Canadian sentiment towards Canadian brands versus American brands versus international brands? 00:05:54:12 - 00:06:20:22 Scott This is an interesting one, Alison. And we're just starting to get into it. I'll share an example from coffee. What's more Canadian than coffee, right? But we're now digging into, ten different categories and different brands across this. And the first learning was that it's not that black and white, and it's not a clear correlation between how consumers see brands. 00:06:20:22 - 00:06:38:20 Scott So let's call it provenance or how Canadian a brand is, or created a Canadian index, you know, from 0 to 100 of how Canadian your brand is seen. And then we looked at sentiment as well. So positive or negative. So what's associated with that? And we're getting this from search and social like I mentioned before. And it was really interesting. 00:06:38:21 - 00:06:58:12 Scott Let's take a case of a few different brands here. And you have a brand like Second Cup. And if you look at it, Second Cup has become even more Canadian in association recently. I think a lot of that had to do with This Hour Has 22 Minutes. They have that viral thing and that's one of the brands that they called out. 00:06:58:14 - 00:07:24:08 Scott And, but we saw that their sentiment hadn't changed versus a year ago. Now meanwhile, it has, because back in the end of last year, their sentiment took a nosedive due to some, let's just say, political statements of one of their franchisee's owners. And it was, it made the news and it took a dive. But what's happened to Second Cup is they have, shot right back up to where they were. 00:07:24:08 - 00:07:50:10 Scott So they've recovered their sentiment and been seen as more Canadian. Then you have the big brands like Tim Hortons, which is, with all the scrutiny, is being seen as a little less Canadian as people look into ownership. But their sentiment hasn't changed that much. People love their Timmie's. And there's almost the same from McDonald's. I mean, McDonald's was never considered a Canadian brand, but their sentiment hasn't changed much, meaning, 00:07:50:11 - 00:08:21:09 Scott or you could interpret, that it's not just about being Canadian. And that's what we're seeing with the maple washing. It's a lot more than that for a brand. The last example of that is Starbucks. And Starbucks, clearly not a Canadian brand. I mean, what could be more Seattle, than Starbucks? But their sentiment has really, really improved. So this tells us that there's, just using a microcosm here of coffee, that there's room for all brands to improve their relationships with consumers, whether they're Canadian or not. 00:08:21:09 - 00:08:26:12 Scott And it's about getting the messaging right and the servicing right and delivering great customer experience. 00:08:26:14 - 00:08:44:15 Alison Now, I know many Canadians are planning to buy Canadian. And Scott, as you called out, coffee is a fairly easy sector to do that in. Not all industries are as easy to buy Canadian if that's your appetite. So Sean, I'm curious to hear from you how Canadians are actually changing their buying behaviours. 00:08:44:17 - 00:09:08:05 Sean Yeah, absolutely. And I think Scott's absolutely right. And I love the lead of it's not simple. It's a little more complicated. And we always have to remember that the Buy Canadian, you know, sentiment and uproar, which is very real for Canadians today. In fact 60% of Canadians are saying they intend to buy Canadian, yet only 40% say they intend to buy less U.S. 00:09:08:06 - 00:09:35:07 Sean So it's very obvious that the sentiment is a positive one, a patriotic one versus one where they're seeking to punish U.S. retailers or brands. But it really is based on on the background of a, of a very difficult economy. And Buy Canada is really just one sentiment driving consumers' purchase decisions. In fact, 88% of consumers, much more than are worried about Buy Canada, are really focused on concerns around their everyday value and the impact tariffs are going to have every day. 00:09:35:09 - 00:09:56:16 Sean And so it's critical for business owners to understand that Buy Canada is one sentiment driving purchase decisions. But it may not be, to Scott's point, as simple as the only one. And so it's incredibly important to understand overall how people are reacting when they're faced with purchasing every day. For us in our business, what we've seen is something, you know, pretty interesting and pretty diverse. 00:09:56:16 - 00:10:30:15 Sean And really, to Scott's point, comes down to it's more complex than just Buy Canada and you really need to understand specific categories and consumers. For example, take U.S. retailers. So predominantly a lot of Canadians will say today that they are seeking to avoid U.S. retailers, some of the ones. But when you actually look at the purchase data, what you see is there's not a significant change in Canadians willing to sacrifice the convenience, the value, the location of a retail shop in order to seek out Canadian brands, or more importantly, to avoid U.S. retailers. 00:10:30:17 - 00:10:54:21 Sean In fact, it's so extreme that in our panel, the people that came to be U.S. avoiders, people who claim to be strongly seeking to avoid U.S. retailers also haven't changed their their shopping habits at all. The fact is that these people were always shopping U.S. retailers less, and they've just found that this sentiment around avoiding U.S. retailers is a nice label to put on a habit that they've already been doing. 00:10:54:23 - 00:11:22:09 Sean And so often we see that the sentiment doesn't overpower the cost of having to change a habit like a retailer choice. U.S. retailers continue to grow, especially where they're offering value. Now, where we see real differences is in category and brands. And absolutely, the anger driven by some of the things going on in the U.S. from tariffs is resulting in real shopping behaviours, where Canadians are willing to change their basket to match their sentiment. 00:11:22:12 - 00:11:52:19 Sean And we see this across the board. We've done work across everything from packaged bread to mayonnaise to pet food. What you see as if you can look at shoppers today, Canadian brands, since the tariffs are growing share at a faster rate than non-Canadian brands. And even more interestingly, to kind of reinforce the power of that message when we segment our business on shoppers that say express some very strong sentiment to buying Canadian, they are growing faster than the average consumer. 00:11:52:19 - 00:12:22:20 Sean So this is this is a a trend that has taken hold for Canadians. And in a lot of ways, and a lot of brands, they're willing to check labels in order to, to try to skew their purchases to Canadian. Now, the one thing I will say is that for all brand managers is you have to know your consumer, and you have to know your category, because we see massive differences across categories. Categories that are taste-oriented or are easy to determine the local nature of the product, 00:12:23:01 - 00:12:47:07 Sean we see big changes and a big willingness to move. But in categories that have either have a high cost of educating yourself on is it Canadian or not? I think Scott mentioned the word maple washing or understanding, or categories like HABA or baby care, where there is a high cost to change, we're seeing a much smaller impact, even with those Canadians that say they have a very high intent to shop Canadian. 00:12:47:09 - 00:12:52:10 Sean So again, and often that cost trumps the desire to be Canadian. 00:12:52:12 - 00:13:15:06 Scott Those are great insights, Sean. I mean, when you look category by category too, it's other trends or consumer behaviours in the past, I know in an earlier conversation we talked about sustainability and people wanting to do a certain thing. But then there's the price to it and the cost. And then you talked about the habit of switching. I mean, switching diapers is an easy thing to do if the diapers work. 00:13:15:08 - 00:13:21:04 Scott You know, we both have kids. But it is interesting. I mean, it's not just being Canadian that's going to do it. 00:13:21:06 - 00:13:46:06 Sean Yeah, I agree Scott, often it is a economic choice that trumps. But we also have to remember that, you know, Canadians are at a tipping point. I think Stats Canada published the average Canadian's 97% of disposable income is now being spent. So you have to understand that there's a willingness, but there's also unfortunately, a lot of Canadians today don't have the ability or the flexibility to make a choice when it comes down to buy Canada versus not. 00:13:46:08 - 00:14:03:00 Alison What's the role of convenience in that decision to you? So if I have the best of intentions that I want to buy Canadian, and maybe it's more challenging than I thought to find a particular Canadian brand, or comes at a premium, I understand obviously the price implications. Some people just don't have the reality to be able to spend more. 00:14:03:02 - 00:14:05:12 Alison But is convenience playing a role in it too? 00:14:05:14 - 00:14:27:17 Sean Absolutely. I think when you think about the regular purchasing drivers that are the overpowering reasons people choose to purchase, often for value, to find the selection they're looking for that match their product needs, Alison. And then the convenience, time, the value of time and the value in all our lives, with kids, with everything else, often trumps our intentionality of our good intentions or the things we like to say we will do. 00:14:27:19 - 00:14:49:18 Sean And I think the other thing marketers have to realize is the barriers to being omnichannel have declined precipitously. So, you know, we continue to see online, especially in categories like CABA. While penetration has not grown since the Covid, we continue to see loyalty and buy rate increase exponentially. So those that have tried online are getting more and more comfortable. 00:14:49:18 - 00:15:08:23 Sean And the barrier to shopping online is down. So convenience doesn't just have to be the five minute drive to your grocery store. It's convenience in a, in an omni channel as consumers shop across channels. And and that's hard to change. It is very hard to change and get rid of the convenience of going to the drugstore on the corner to get your beauty regimen. 00:15:09:01 - 00:15:18:01 Sean It's very hard to drive by several value-oriented retailers in order to find the one, because you want to shop based on that sentiment. 00:15:18:03 - 00:15:51:08 Scott Yeah, you know, a quick build there, actually two things. One of them is when you look at the in-store condition, too, I mean, I've done so much research over the years, both on the client side and on the current supplier side that I'm on. And shelf decisions are made in like a 200th of a second. And so right now, people are giving a little bit of extra time to, you know, use their app and scan a product or check the provenance of a specific product. That's not going to last long term, because that's just not the way people are wired when they're shopping. 00:15:51:08 - 00:16:12:09 Scott I think it's just a blip in time for that. Convenience is very important. And that's where even the brand work we do. We talk about salience. It's critical for your products to be salient. So the top of mind when people go to make a shopping decision, you know whether it's online or whether it's an in-store. If we start dropping the ball as marketers on focusing on building salience, we're going to be in big trouble. 00:16:12:11 - 00:16:33:17 Scott And a lot of people are sitting there, sitting and waiting right now, with all the uncertainty in the markets. But it's really a time to be getting your brand message out there. And, you know, the last piece of that's pricing, and pricing power that we talked about, and that's a whole cost and worth balance between brands. And you can't justify a premium just being Canadian, maybe for a week or two. 00:16:33:17 - 00:16:39:20 Scott but those are things we have to think about long term. And that's the importance of brand building right now for both convenience and for price. 00:16:39:22 - 00:17:07:01 Sean Yeah, I mean, I would love to add something. I think something Scott said, just really resonate with me. It really comes down in my mind of, do you have the product fit to your view of the consumers looking for? And but he way, if marketers are not seeking to understand at a deeper level what their consumers, both their current consumers of their products to understand what their sentiments are truly and are instead looking at the average Canadian, then, I think it was Harvard 00:17:07:03 -... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/36737340

EP43 - Trust, Tariffs, and Transformation with Steven Allmen 05/21/2025

EP43 - Trust, Tariffs, and Transformation with Steven Allmen How are successful Canadian brands adapting to today's rapidly changing market? In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Steven Allmen, Executive Vice President of Strategy and Partnerships at CAA National. They explore strategies for staying relevant and growing in Canada, from successful pivots to cautionary tales like Hudson's Bay. Discover the evolving role of trust in brand loyalty, what it truly means to be a Canadian brand today, and how companies respond to shifting consumer behaviours in the face of economic pressures. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:21:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:21:21 - 00:00:44:22 Alison In today's episode, we are exploring how one of Canada's oldest brands has evolved to stay relevant and grow for over 100 years. Clearly, that's not an easy feat, especially when you think about how much the world and Canadians have changed over that period. I am absolutely delighted to welcome Steve Allmen, the Executive Vice-President of strategy and partnerships with Canadian Automobile Association, who is joining me today. 00:00:45:00 - 00:01:15:02 Alison Before joining the CAA National, Steve held senior leadership roles in loyalty, retail, telecom and financial services, working for great businesses like Amia, Aeroplan and HBC, to name a few. With expertise in strategic alliances, program design and business development, Steve focuses on driving value through partnerships, data driven insights and loyalty marketing. His diverse background really reflects a passion for delivering growth and transformative results, and this work in the CAA is the latest example. 00:01:15:06 - 00:01:36:01 Alison Today, Steve and I are going to dig into what it takes to stay relevant and grow as a business and brand in Canada. Whether your brand has been around for decades or is in more nascent stages, there is absolutely lots of valuable learning that you can benefit from in our conversation. We'll also cover when you should pivot and futureproof your business by changing what's working well for your company in the past, and that's never an easy decision. 00:01:36:03 - 00:01:52:05 Alison We'll talk about the crucial role trust plays and what it means to be a Canadian brand, amidst the current political and economic upheaval. The CAA also has a unique lens into how Canadians are changing their behaviours across the country, which is valuable for all the marketers who have tuned in today. Welcome, Steve. 00:01:52:07 - 00:01:54:03 Steve Thanks, Alison. Great to be here. 00:01:54:05 - 00:02:10:04 Alison So, Steve, let's start with what's going on today and the recent resurgence of Canadian patriotism. I'd love you to share how CAA has seen Canadians adopting their behaviours in the face of tariffs and the increased loyalty to our country. And also, are you seeing any regional differences? 00:02:10:06 - 00:02:30:05 Steve Yeah. Thanks, Alison. It's a, it's a great topic. It's sort of an unfortunate topic that we have to cover today. But the reality is we're all living it. So one of the things that we've seen at CAA, I think as much as anybody else is we're very happy that we've got Canadian in our name, because it makes it very easy for people to understand who we are. 00:02:30:07 - 00:02:57:23 Steve We're we're a diverse group of clubs across Canada. We represent about 7.4 million Canadian members. We call them members, not as much consumers, but members of our program. We're very proud of the fact that we are coast to coast with offices from BC to Atlantic Canada. What we're seeing as much as anything else, is a lot of clarity around travel, a lot of clarity around, you know, the importance of being Canadian and a lot of pride. 00:02:58:01 - 00:03:26:12 Steve I can't quote all the numbers for you right now because we're still learning them as we go along. We are certainly seeing a dip in U.S. travel. We're certainly seeing an uptick in European, Caribbean, Mexico travel. So CAA is not just a roadside business. We're also a travel business. And so we have a pretty good sense as to what's going on from what our members are researching, what our travel agents are hearing from their consumers, and how we're promoting the business. 00:03:26:14 - 00:03:51:15 Steve It doesn't mean we're not promoting U.S. partners, but we're very aware of the fact that Canadians have changed their travel behaviour. One of the things I'm going to be most interested to see is because CAA is part of a North America wide alliance with Triple-A, which is very much the same business as CAA, we get a lot of trans-border traffic, so we get Americans coming up to Canada, we get Canadians going down to the United States. 00:03:51:17 - 00:04:12:19 Steve And in essence, if you break down as a CAA member in the middle of Tennessee and you phone CAA, a nice Triple A truck will show up. If you break down in the middle of Ontario and you're a Triple-A member, the same happens. So with summer travel coming up, it's going to be really interesting to see what impact that has on our business. 00:04:13:02 - 00:04:42:01 Steve Wha,t what impact that has on our call rates and what impact that has just on our forecasting for the future. We don't know yet. We're still learning. The only other thing I'd say is we've got some great partners, many of whom are Canadian businesses. And so we're very much promoting them. Again, we're not doing anything to stop people from coming to our partners, but we're very proud of some of our Canadian partners and promoting them as we go through the motions of whatever is next going to come out of the United States and the government. 00:04:42:03 - 00:04:52:16 Alison Now you highlighted some of the non-U.S. destinations that Canadians are now choosing Caribbean and others. Are we seeing them also booking more vacations in Canada? 00:04:52:18 - 00:05:16:14 Steve Yeah, it's a great it's a great question. I think we're going to start to see a lot more road tripping, where we're hearing a lot more about it. We still do a lot of regional partners, very much regional partners that have the flavour of B.C. or the flavour of Atlantic Canada. Again, I don't have final numbers yet. It might be an interesting thing to revisit it in a year, and then we can measure against it. 00:05:16:15 - 00:05:38:10 Steve But we certainly are having members asking about, what can I do in Niagara Falls? What can I do in beautiful Victoria? Where can I go in P.E.I.? And again, some of those are self-serving events versus using a travel agent. But I think we're going to see a real uptick in consumers either renting a car, we've got RV partners, 00:05:38:10 - 00:05:56:16 Steve We've got hotel partners, we've got dining partners. Regional events, regional fairs and all those other things that are really built for our members. So I'm very confident we're going to see an uptick in those. Just everything you're reading in the press, it makes sense. And our consumers are very representative of the Canadian population. 00:05:56:18 - 00:06:12:16 Alison Now, we're obviously seeing a huge Buy Canadian movement from your perspective with living, working with a brand that's been a part of Canada for 112 years. What does it mean to be a Canadian brand and how has that evolved during the current political and economic upheaval? 00:06:12:18 - 00:06:35:00 Steve Yeah, it's it's a really interesting time for us. You know, CAA is built on a couple of things. We're built on our very traditional roadside business. We're also very much built on advocacy and safety and trust. And I'll give you a couple of examples. You know, we recently did, for example, for those of you who are EV drivers, I'm not, 00:06:35:00 - 00:06:59:18 Steve But for those of you who are EV drivers, your biggest thing that you're worried about is range. So we did a very Canadian thing. We tested cars in the winter. That might seem unusual, but a lot of the EV cars that are out there have their ranges calculated based on California. We're not California. So in February, we actually did a test drive with using 14 EVs from beautiful Ottawa to even more beautiful Mont Tremblant. 00:06:59:20 - 00:07:22:03 Steve We actually drove the cars until they were empty of electrical charge and fuel and wanted to see how long would they take? What was the charging time to reboot them? How did we need to kind of get all those little nuances working so that people are comfortable? And we did it with a lot of Canadian pride. We had people from all over Canada driving these vehicles up into Mont Tremblant. 00:07:22:04 - 00:07:40:01 Steve It was fantastic. So the press that comes out of it is very much about CAA is trustworthy. And here's a Canadian view of EVs. So Canadian pride comes up. And again we are the Canadian Automobile Association, so we're reminded of it every day. 00:07:40:03 - 00:08:01:00 Alison So now let's take a step back. Thriving is a business. For 112 years it was to state the obvious very, very rare. And it absolutely has to provide valuable learning for marketers, and the company at any stage. So can you share how the CAA has evolved? And we'll narrow the timeframe down to the last decade, relevance and driving growth. 00:08:01:02 - 00:08:40:06 Steve Yeah. It's you know, we are 100 and I think we're 110 plus years old. And we started in a time of horse and carriage and bicycles and cars that were a little bit rickety. So we have evolved. I think the biggest thing that we've looked at is really the importance of trust around the data that we gather on our members and how we communicate with our members as we've migrated from very much a direct mail house - all of our clubs were very big on direct mail, either for acquisition or renewal or marketing around the partnerships, far more now to a digital journey. 00:08:40:06 - 00:08:56:10 Steve And that digital journey has its pros and cons behind it. If you think about the journey of somebody who's broken down on the side of the road, and I'll just use a very real example. You're driving down in Toronto, you break down on the 401, you don't want to be there. So what do you do? You call CAA. 00:08:56:12 - 00:09:12:09 Steve The old days, you would call CAA and they'd say, yep, we're going to send a tow truck and they'll be there in 40 minutes. Now with our apps, you can actually, in very much an Uber or Lyft like experience, go on to the app, track where the driver is, understand where their journey is, they'll communicate with you, you know who's showing up. 00:09:12:14 - 00:09:38:13 Steve And so you've got not just that trust that somebody is coming, but you actually can see them coming. And trust me, that works really, really well when it comes to how our members are surviving. Also done things like, you know, the relevance of the importance of the safety of that event. So if your car is, the battery's dead on your driveway, that's a very different experience than your battery's dead or your car's broken down in the middle of the highway. 00:09:38:13 - 00:10:03:11 Steve So we'll kind of gauge our our response times to it. From a marketing standpoint, very much again, respectful of privacy rules and regulations. You know, the journey flow, the buy flow from somebody who's, signing up for a membership or renewing their membership. How are they paying for it? So all the communication pieces have to address both the regional flare. 00:10:03:13 - 00:10:27:02 Steve Remember we're CAA, but we're BCA in BC, we're the Alberta Motor Association in Alberta, we're CA Quebec, CA Saskatchewan. So each of the clubs has a little bit of a nuance to how they market that message. And then how do we promote our partners? How do we promote our partners like Recipe, Harvey's, Swiss Chalet, Shell, Enterprise Rent-A-Car, Choice Hotels. 00:10:27:07 - 00:10:48:12 Steve We again have to be very clear on the data. So if you're a regular Shell user, please don't send me an acquisition offer to go to Shell. If you're an infrequent user, maybe it's a re-engagement. So we're able to use, like any good marketers, the data to market better, promote better. Those are things that they didn't have ten years ago, 15 years ago. 00:10:48:14 - 00:11:10:03 Steve With the birth of the AI, it's going to be even more interesting to see how we start to use AI to both predict behaviour, but also to market more effectively for our members. So I think we're very reflective of some of the other great members of the Canadian Marketing Association who are using great tools and methodologies, and data. 00:11:10:03 - 00:11:18:01 Steve And we have some great data partners like Environics Analytics and some other great technology partners to really make sure that we're doing the right marketing message. 00:11:18:03 - 00:11:37:04 Alison Now, the regional and national piece is relevant to a lot of our members and listeners as well. So how do you balance the desire to personalize messaging, reach and marketing regionally, and also have it have a CAA branded presence? 00:11:37:06 - 00:12:01:17 Steve Yeah, it's it's a funny question because if I'm a BCA member, I really don't know what's going on in Atlantic Canada. I may not necessarily be too worried about it unless I'm driving there and I break down, and then it's really important. So, so we have to balance out both the, purpose of CAA from the standpoint of travel, roadside insurance, etc., from a national perspective. 00:12:01:22 - 00:12:27:03 Steve But we also have to understand that there's a very different demographic between somebody who lives in downtown Vancouver versus somebody who lives in Moncton, or somebody who lives in northern Ontario. So our clubs are really, really focused on making sure that there's a nice mix of, you know, the local inn or the local hotel or the local restaurant that can support that club 00:12:27:05 - 00:12:51:22 Steve that may not be relevant to everybody across the country. While at the same time, CAA goes and pursues very large national partners to provide that national fit for both our clubs and for the partners. So it's a bit of a balancing act. Shell is a primary example. We used to have five regional fuel partners. Great for the regions, really complicated for us as a business. 00:12:52:06 - 00:13:17:12 Steve In 2021 we launched Shell in Alberta. We rolled them out nationally in 2022. So now we've got this national footprint with a national reach, which means a member from Quebec can go and fill up in BC and get the same value as they would as if they're filling up at home. So it's a bit of a mix between how we support both the partners, but also how we support the growth of our brand. 00:13:17:12 - 00:13:32:02 Steve And again, that's new learning for us as we think about, you know, the reach in a very crowded marketplace of incentives and loyalty and discounts and benefits. So we kind of always have to be ahead of the game to make sure that we're achieving that goal. 00:13:32:04 - 00:13:50:19 Alison Now, no matter how much you want to change, change is hard, and timing certainly plays a key role too, especially when you are driving change while business results are good. So how does the CAA team determine when you should pivot and future-proof your business by changing what's working well for your company? 00:13:50:21 - 00:14:13:08 Steve Yeah, so I think the easiest way to explain it is that we have both strategic thinking and we have operational execution. And let me explain that a little bit. So we have a great collaboration between the clubs nationally. We have great collaboration between CAA and Triple-A, but we also have great collaboration between CAA and clubs around the world. 00:14:13:08 - 00:14:36:07 Steve There's almost 200 countries that have mobility clubs we all share, so we might actually get an idea from a club in the Netherlands or in Australia and be able to bring it in. I'm really proud of the fact that CAA has actually been a leader in this, so let me unpack that a little bit. We're eight clubs in Canada, and so a club in Canada might try something new. 00:14:36:13 - 00:14:57:13 Steve And I'll give you an example. One of our clubs a couple of years ago thought, you know, I'm really concerned about making sure that we're targeting a younger demographic. How are we going to do that? How can we get away from just, you know, traditional CAA to new CAA? So they actually launched the products in their club, it was Northeast Ontario. 00:14:57:15 - 00:15:21:07 Steve So they actually launched the product that was CAA without roadside. So you might sit there and say, how is that going to work? But a CAA member can join every day and get all the benefits of CAA - discount on dining, discounts at fuel, great rates on insurance, great rates on travel, the only thing they can't do is call roadside. 00:15:21:07 - 00:15:43:12 Steve Now, theoretically, if they called and they needed to get roadside, we would enrol them in the program. But it's not targeted at that group. So that started in one club and it rolled right across the country. It is now in every club in Canada. It's called different things in the clubs. It's Every Day in most of the clubs, Alberta calls it Community and BCA and Quebec call it Go. 00:15:43:12 - 00:16:08:14 Steve So BCA Go and CAQuebec Go. So that innovation actually started in a club and they piloted it, and they tested it and they stress-tested it, and did all the other things and it rolled across the country. Why is it really exciting? Because it's now being tested in six of the Triple-A clubs as a non- roadside product. So a little bit of Canadian pride as we roll our product down into the United States. 00:16:08:16 - 00:16:29:18 Steve And that pivot really came out of a need and an understanding. We needed to evolve. We needed to evolve our business. We needed to evolve beyond roadside as people are car-sharing more, as people are, you know, buying new cars, leasing vehicles, how can we kind of create an avenue for them to come in and work more closely with us? 00:16:29:18 - 00:16:52:13 Steve And it's been very successful. You know the numbers, we're now nationally. The other thing we did with that business? Subscription model. Why subscription model? We know it works with the younger demographic. So instead of an upfront fee, it's a monthly fee. So that's kind of one example of a pivot. The next pivots I think are going to be around the connected car. As we think about our cars, 00:16:52:15 - 00:17:09:14 Steve I still remember the days, I don't know about you, Alison, where you were pushing buttons to change stations and I got am and nothing but. I am showing my age a little bit. But the connected car, the car knows it's time to change your oil. It's time to get gas. Here's the closest station. Do you want me to guide you there? 00:17:09:14 - 00:17:34:03 Steve All those things that are there. So we're very excited about where the connected car is going to go. And how the car connects to the home and how the home connects to behaviour. And are there things that we could actually do to change our members behaviour safely while they're driving? I have to get that in for our road site team, but safely while they're driving, to allow the vehicle to help them do things. 00:17:34:05 - 00:17:51:23 Steve Time to order an oil change. We have services now that will change your tires right on your driveway. So instead of booking a time where you have to go somewhere, they actually come to you. You're having a cup of coffee and they'll even detail your car. One of our guys in Atlantic Canada showed me pictures of his car being detailed. 00:17:52:01 - 00:18:10:16 Steve He's got three kids. He doesn't have time... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/36645730

EP42 - Beyond Brand Control with Neil Patel 05/08/2025

EP42 - Beyond Brand Control with Neil Patel In this live episode of CMA Connect for CMA Marketing Week 2025, Alison Simpson the CEO of the CMA welcomes Neil Patel, New York Times bestselling author, and the Founder of NP Digital. Their conversation covers various topics from the impact of AI on marketing, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation, to the changing nature of brand control and exposing the myth of controlling narratives. Listen in as Alison and Neil discuss the evolving landscape of the marketing profession in Canada and decide for yourself if brands still matter. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:07 - 00:00:45:09 Alison So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome everyone in the room today, as well as the hundreds of Canadians that are joining us from across the country to this live version of CMA connect. As we've heard throughout the morning, marketing isn't just changing. It is absolutely being redefined in real time. And it's so important to take time to reflect and digest and make sure that our pivoting makes sense. 00:00:45:11 - 00:01:07:03 Alison It's absolutely, very much a period of test and learn as well. And the most recent panel did a phenomenal job of sharing how that's working for them as well. And they both panels today have really given us a lot to reflect on. So building on that theme, I'm thrilled to be joined by Neil Patel and Years time bestselling author and also the founder of NP digital. 00:01:07:05 - 00:01:32:16 Alison He's going to be joining me on stage momentarily, but while he's coming up, I will share a little bit about Neil. Neil's full service digital marketing agency has helped industry giants like Microsoft and Google, just to name a couple, grow through revolutionary marketing strategies. He also has a marketing school podcast that attracts over 1 million listeners monthly. The United Nations recognized Neil as one of the top 100 entrepreneurs under the age of 35. 00:01:32:18 - 00:01:49:15 Alison Oh, and The Wall Street Journal cited him as a top influencer on the web, just around things out. He made Forbes list of the top ten marketers. You know what? I thought my career was going pretty well until I started to learn a little bit more about Neil. So, you know, I've had the pleasure of meeting and doing a CME session with him last year. 00:01:49:15 - 00:01:52:18 Alison So it's great to welcome you back to Canada. 00:01:52:20 - 00:01:56:02 Neil Thank you. Thank you. 00:01:56:04 - 00:02:03:23 Alison So we're going to jump right in. What are the biggest rules you've seen rewritten. And then how are you going to rate us on our ability to adapt to those rules. 00:02:04:01 - 00:02:25:02 Neil Yeah. So when you're thinking about the rules of marketing, people just used to assume marketing wasn't very black and white. I'm not talking about from the creative aspect, but in marketing, in general, people are like, okay, you spend money on clicks and you get traffic to your website, you generate sales, you rank on Google, you get clicks, you generate sales. 00:02:25:02 - 00:02:48:06 Neil And one of the biggest rules has been changed in marketing is platforms now are trying to optimize keeping people on their own platform, their own site, instead of sending people off to your website. Marcus believe that you would have to have people coming to your website to drive revenue and sales. You can now purchase on Instagram or TikTok without ever leaving that platform. 00:02:48:09 - 00:03:13:04 Neil The business generates revenue and Instagram and TikTok, so have the user. They sell them more products, more services. So I would say the biggest rule that I'm seeing being rewritten right now is traditional form of marketing. Of sending them to a business to generate revenue is no longer the case. A business can make money on multiple platforms, and it's no longer about getting people over to your brand, your website. 00:03:13:10 - 00:03:22:14 Neil It's more so capturing their attention on whatever platform they are on and then selling them right then and there on that platform natively. 00:03:22:16 - 00:03:26:17 Alison And how are you writing marketers overall in our ability to adapt to that? 00:03:26:19 - 00:03:53:09 Neil Marketers have been adapting really well. What we typically see is the marketers who work for SMEs tend to adapt first, and then the marketers who work at large corporations typically adapt second, because it just takes time and energy. And when you're a big corporation, you know, that's publicly traded, that it has $100 billion market cap. It takes time to make adjustments versus when you're a five person start. 00:03:53:11 - 00:04:00:23 Alison Now you also work with a lot of big tech organizations. So are they a bit more agile or they're still suffering from the same? 00:04:01:01 - 00:04:04:23 Neil They're still suffering from the same thing that all the other corporations are. 00:04:05:01 - 00:04:16:14 Alison So, Neil, as we look to the future, there are some experts out there that are starting to question will brands continue to be relevant? So in your opinion, will Rand still matter in an age of algorithms and hyper personalization? 00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:00 Neil AI brands, I think, matter more than ever before. Think of AI overviews. You do a search you may get mentioned in a overviews you don't necessarily always get a click back to your website. You do a search on ChatGPT. You may see a brand or a product or service recommended. You may end up purchasing later on. You may not purchase at all, but it's very rare that you're actually clicking over to the website. 00:04:39:06 - 00:04:57:07 Neil You see a real on Instagram or video. Whatever you want and calling it short form. See a product or service mention you don't go and buy right away. In most cases. That brand recognition, though, is what eventually leads to a sale. In marketing, they call something the rule of seven. Or there's this thing called the Rule of seven. 00:04:57:07 - 00:05:24:03 Neil When someone sees or interacts with your brand seven times, they're much more likely to engage, become a customer, evangelize. And we started looking at price points in both B2C and B2B. Of course, the cheaper the price point, the less interaction someone needed with the brand before they purchase. But when we looked at price points across the whole board for both B2B and B2C, the average number of interactions someone has with the brand when we did a study was around 11. 00:05:24:08 - 00:05:34:22 Neil So branding is more important than ever, because if you're not touching people multiple times and you're not saying top of mind, you're less likely to drive that sale when they're ready to make that decision. 00:05:35:00 - 00:05:56:14 Alison Now, awareness and trust in a brand is obviously yes. We heard the panel talk about the emotional part of a brand. It's there's always going to be product features and benefits. But as humans we react emotionally. And we also heard a lot about authenticity. What else would you add to what makes a brand as important or even more important today? 00:05:56:16 - 00:06:12:05 Neil So if you want your brand to be super important, I would say you got to figure out an angle. You know, trust, authenticity. These are all a lot of things that markers talk about. And it's been there for a very long time. But what are you doing that's different? So I'll give you a great example of this right. 00:06:12:07 - 00:06:37:01 Neil I'm listening in. I'm from the States. I'm not familiar with as many Canadian brands as you guys may be. So one of the panelists before me was from Farm Girl. Never heard of it. I have kids, don't give them cereal in the morning. Why? It's terrible for you in most cases, right? The advantage you guys have here in Canada is you guys typically have cleaner ingredients. 00:06:37:03 - 00:07:01:00 Neil Our box of FrootLoops is much worse, at least from what we see on Instagram Reels when they compare versus what the Canadian version of FrootLoops is. All right, so when I saw Farm Girl, the first thing I did, even if there's a tariff for me, I tried to purchase it on Amazon, I think was like 20 something dollars, USD per package. 00:07:01:00 - 00:07:17:01 Neil I added three to a cart, and then I was like, I'm like, wait, I'm here for extra like few hours. Can I just go to the grocery store and pick some up? Because my suitcase is half empty? I'm literally here for a day, right? Like I should just go to the grocery store and just see if I can shove a ton in. 00:07:17:03 - 00:07:54:05 Neil I don't know what's going to happen at the customs or I'm Global Entry, so hopefully I don't get any beef, but that was a unique angle, solving a problem that people have. When I grew up, I eat cereal and my parents didn't know any better. Immigrants from India, you know, they look at it as like, anything's great. We're not living on the street, you know, give your kid whatever is on sale, affordable cut coupons, etc. at this point in time, we're much more educated as parents then I would say that the previous generations were, and it has nothing to do with intellect. 00:07:54:05 - 00:08:17:21 Neil I think a lot of it has to do with the data and the social platforms pushing out so much information that we're able to consume it and learn more. But going back to it, that brand stood out to me. She's booming. Great growth. I'm happy for her. But as a consumer, her success of her generating tons of revenue and growing fast is why I would buy the product. 00:08:18:02 - 00:08:38:10 Neil I'm buying the product. You know, either it's going to be Amazon or in-store if I can find it, but I'm buying the product for one simple reason a unique value proposition. Solving a very important problem. Parent busy in the morning. Don't want to give them crap food. Don't want to spend tons of money on Uber Eats to get restaurant quality food in there. 00:08:38:10 - 00:08:58:22 Neil I tend to do the morning shift. Terrible cook healthy cereal? Why not? Right? No, no. But in the US, I don't think there is a skill. Right. Or I would do skip whatever it may and whatever it may end up being right. But that is why I was willing to purchase that brand. And to me that is something unique. 00:08:59:00 - 00:09:17:12 Neil Okay. And when you see something unique like that, people end up latching on and they see fast growth. I don't know her revenue numbers, but I bet you there in the eight figures sounds like a new business. But if I had to place a bet, I would bet you there are an eight figures. Why did they scale so fast? 00:09:17:17 - 00:09:33:13 Neil That brand did something unique and new that people have never experienced before. Now there may have been another competitor who did exactly what she did a year or two earlier, but if it doesn't get out there and no one talks about it, then in most to most people it doesn't exist. 00:09:33:15 - 00:09:38:04 Alison So Jennifer, you have at least one sale from your appearance this morning. I suspect you have a lot more in the audience too. 00:09:38:04 - 00:09:42:02 Neil Well, minimum of three because I added three different flavours to my cart. 00:09:42:04 - 00:09:57:11 Alison So it wouldn't be Marketing Week if we didn't talk about AI with at least one question. Yeah, clearly it's transforming marketing. How do you see it impacting marketing? And probably more importantly, what are the skills you think we as marketers need to build moving forward? 00:09:57:13 - 00:10:21:22 Neil So I was here last year and I was a center and people were discussing AI and how it's going to crush everything. It's going to turn everything, you know, upside down on the pyramid and the way organizations do business is going to be drastically different. All right. So we've seen a lot of data. I've always been on a different side of AI than what I think a lot of marketers and businesses believe. 00:10:22:00 - 00:10:39:22 Neil Keep in mind though, a lot of this is not my opinion. I talked to people who are actually coding these products, and I speak with the people from these platforms like no joke, whether it's in their offices or dinners. Like, I know some of the top guys, as you know, these corporations that are worth a crack load of money. 00:10:39:22 - 00:11:01:09 Neil And although their goal is to make AI as seamless as possible and help you in every aspect, there's a few big problems that most marketers aren't taking into consideration. So the first problem is, is the way I works is it takes all the data inputs and it creates outputs based on what you asked, but it learns from all the inputs. 00:11:01:15 - 00:11:19:15 Neil The problem with AI is those inputs are all accurate and there's not an easy way to solve this. It's like do a Google search. Have you ever noticed that when you do a Google search, some of the information you read is just off? Raise your hand. Okay, almost everyone in here is raising your hand. You don't think Google hasn't tried to solve this? 00:11:19:15 - 00:11:39:08 Neil They've been trying to solve this for ages. Like when I say ages almost since when they started. It's hard. Oh, what are you going to base on? Backlinks? Well, a lot of people link to inaccurate information. Comments a lot of people comment on something because, you know, whether you want to talk about how their politics or religion, there's people on both sides. 00:11:39:11 - 00:12:03:07 Neil So it creates polarizing views. Right? A great example of this is the vaccines. When the vaccines first came about, when Covid, people in different parts of the world were getting shunned, if they did not take the vaccine. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm not here to get political. But if I fast forward today and I'm not going to have you guys raise your hands because, again, not trying to get political, I bet almost everyone in this room does not get booster shots. 00:12:03:12 - 00:12:27:00 Neil I don't even need to raise your hand. I can see the data in the earnings calls. Right? These companies are publicly traded. It's just the reality. But when it first came out, most people had a different tune about vaccines. And it doesn't mean that the government is right or wrong or pharmaceuticals right or wrong. But what I'm getting at is that information online of what people are posting was very polarizing or people had different views. 00:12:27:00 - 00:12:45:20 Neil So when I pulls in that, how do they know what is right or wrong? It makes things really complex. So today when you ask AI to help you with something, you need humans in the loop to review. When you have a I help you with a marketing campaign and come up with a strategy and everyone starts to do that. 00:12:45:21 - 00:13:09:09 Neil How is it really going to be differentiated? The creativity that people have is what makes marketing truly unique and amazing. But here's the thing and marketing is here to stay. It is going to make the whole industry move faster, much more efficient. And what you'll see is people will get things done much faster and waste a lot less money. 00:13:09:09 - 00:13:29:08 Neil But even then you're going to still have humans in the loop. It's just AI is going to replace a lot of the D and C players. I eventually believe it will start replacing B players as well. We're quite a ways from that. When you want to look at how much AI has advanced in the past year, I understand that you can see like, oh wow, look at this video that it created. 00:13:29:08 - 00:13:49:13 Neil Look at this action figure turn me into. But look at it from a usability perspective, from your work that you're performing on a daily basis. You want it to have a great content for you. Has it really drastically improve the quality of that content over the last six months? Not as much compared to when it first came out in the first year. 00:13:49:14 - 00:14:17:04 Neil There was so much more progress that we would see in the quality of improvements, but it's taking longer for you to see leaps and bounds and improvements for things like content quality. And the reason being is every percent improvement is a lot more work than at its earlier stages. Again, it is here to stay. It is going to replace a lot of the bottom feeders or the people who aren't that great at their job, and it's going to make the people who are really good at their job more valuable. 00:14:17:04 - 00:14:25:12 Neil They're going to get paid more, and you got to figure out how you continue to learn and adapt to try to stay in that top percent style in whatever industry or so. 00:14:25:12 - 00:14:39:00 Alison Clearly, everyone that's tuned in today, if they're not already in a player, wants to be in a player, want a long term career in marketing. So what skills do we need to be adapting or growing in order to make sure that we're here in the long term? 00:14:39:02 - 00:15:01:20 Neil The first thing is, is learn how to use all the AI tools. When I say learn how to use them, I'm not talking about just putting in a prompt into ChatGPT. Think about the KPIs your department, you or the business has to hit. What are the things that you can do to help? I get you there faster, more efficiently, and figure out ways to use the tools to show positive traction. 00:15:02:00 - 00:15:18:02 Neil Not hey look, I use ChatGPT and I did all this cool stuff for the last two days. Oh great. And they're like, yeah, the fast forward six months. Look at all this crazy stuff I did the last six months. What were the results in traffic? Brand recognition, revenue leads. They're like, oh, it saved me a lot of time. 00:15:18:02 - 00:15:40:09 Neil What did you do with the extra time? I did more of that stuff, but it didn't produce results. If it doesn't produce results, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. And I'm not saying I can't produce results. It's that most marketers are using it for stuff that is a waste of time, and you need to start focusing on how can you use these tools to not only help you do your job better, but show better results? 00:15:40:13 - 00:16:02:06 Neil And a lot of that's going to come from experimentation. The second thing is continue to go to events and learn. You never will know everything. And that's okay. I've been in this space for more than 20 years, 24 years now. It's changed drastically. And some people ask me when I'm at some of these events, sometimes I talk to these college kids and they're like, why did you waste 15 20 minutes talking to a college kid? 00:16:02:06 - 00:16:20:11 Neil Are they going to become a customer? I'm like, no, like, so why did do they know more about marketing than you? I'm like, well, it depends. And they're like, what are you talk to? Like? Well, they grew up using these platforms. I didn't they see some of these trends and patterns before I do. What can I learn from them that I don't understand? 00:16:20:17 - 00:16:39:10 Neil And that's what you have to do when you go to these events is network with everyone, because you don't know who you're going to learn from, and never judge someone by their job title or the size of the company they work out, or their net worth, or the way they dress. You literally can learn from anyone, and when you do that, you'll become a much better person. 00:16:39:12 - 00:17:08:04 Neil The third thing, thank you. The third thing is continually read every single day, but limit it if you want to read for leisure, by all means, read as much as you want. But what I see people doing in marketing is continue reading articles and blogs and books, and they may read for 4 or 5 hours a day instead of saying, hey, I'm going to try to read for 30 minutes or an hour and then go and... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/36484490

EP41 - Canadian Sentiment on Trump’s Tariffs with Gregory Jack & Naumi Haque 04/22/2025

EP41 - Canadian Sentiment on Trump’s Tariffs with Gregory Jack & Naumi Haque Where do you stand on Trump and the tariffs? CMA CEO Alison Simpson welcomes Gregory Jack, SVP of Public Affairs, Strategic Communication & Market Research, and Naumi Haque, SVP of Research – Market Strategy & Understanding, both from Ipsos. Their timely discussion highlights an Ipsos member survey quantifying Canadians’ sentiments about today’s economic and political climate. Learn how Canadians unite to defend the country’s economy and sovereignty and discover how you can stand with your fellow Canadians. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:21 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:23 - 00:00:58:00 Alison We are certainly living in interesting times with tariffs and the 51st state nonsense creating uncertainty, we're seeing Canadians come together to defend our economy and also our sovereignty. In today's episode, we are sharing new research that quantifies how Canadians are reacting to Trump, tariffs and the turmoil that they're both creating. The ongoing study by CMA member Ipsos is tracking Canadians' sentiment and how it's quickly evolving on many key measures, including buying Canadian and how Canadian consumers are balancing their desire to support local brands with concerns about rising costs and affordability. 00:00:58:01 - 00:01:24:21 Alison Joining me today are Naumi Haque, Senior Vice President of Market Strategy and Understanding, and Greg Jack, Senior Vice President of Public Affairs, Strategic Communication Market Research, both from Ipsos. Naumi is an Insights Leader with over two decades of experience in the research and advisory industries across several great companies, including Google. In his current role, Naumi is managing customer research projects for companies in a variety of sectors including retail, cannabis and tech. 00:01:24:23 - 00:01:45:07 Alison He was at the forefront of global research that tracked the impact of Covid 19 on citizens and consumers, and is now leading a tracking study on how Canadians are responding to Trump and tariffs. Greg leads the Ottawa Public Affairs practice for Ipsos. He's also a Boomerang member of their team, having first worked there as a VP in their Calgary office in 2019 to 2023. 00:01:45:08 - 00:02:06:05 Alison Greg's held a variety of roles in the federal government and also worked for Suncor and the Government of Alberta early in his career. He brings extensive experience in both market research and helping brands and governments get their message out. Today, Greg, Naomi and I are digging into the research findings to discuss the impact that the economic and political uncertainty are having on Canadians. 00:02:06:07 - 00:02:27:02 Alison We'll discuss intriguing generational differences and also how Canadian consumers' attitudes towards US-based companies that are operating in Canada are changing. We'll highlight the opportunities and challenges that the rise of Canadian patriotism and the shifting sentiment and marketplace can represent for marketers. Welcome, Greg and Naumi, it's a pleasure to have you both with us today. 00:02:27:04 - 00:02:27:21 Gregory Thank you. 00:02:27:23 - 00:02:29:08 Naumi Thanks for having us. 00:02:29:10 - 00:02:39:15 Alison So Naumi, I'd love you to kick things off. How has the "Buy Canadian" sentiment evolved since the start of the US Canada trade tensions? And what implications does this have for marketers? 00:02:39:17 - 00:03:03:07 Naumi For sure. I mean, it's been, it's been a crazy month. So there's definitely the "Buy Canadian sentiment", is going strong. There's actually, you know, we see two things happening, right? There's patriotic purchasing, so people trying to buy Canadian or avoid American. And there's another shift happening with consumers, which is that we see just general conservatism. People are pulling back a little bit on spending because of all the uncertainty that's happening around the tariffs and the impact on prices. 00:03:03:08 - 00:03:23:13 Naumi So in terms of how it's evolving, we're definitely seeing the sentiment grow. So it's not just Buy Canadian, it's avoid American. And right now we're looking at the two thirds of Canadians that say they're making an effort to buy Canadian. And that's gone up from just over half of Canadians about a month ago. And on the boycotting American side, we're also seeing growth in that number. 00:03:23:14 - 00:03:46:07 Naumi So it's 58% of Canadians, right now are saying they're avoiding American products. And that's up from 47% a month ago. And then there's also, you know, about a third of Canadians that are stopping traveling from the US. So there's just right now a lot of, I think, angst with Canadians in terms of the US. And then there's the other part that I mentioned, the sort of being a little bit more conservative. 00:03:46:09 - 00:04:16:18 Naumi We see Canadians generally pulling back on spending. So about a third of them right now are telling us that in the past, two weeks, they've pulled back on spending or more tightly budgeted their money because of everything that's happening with tariffs and uncertainty. So it's definitely, you know, a strong sentiment amongst Canadians. It's growing. And I think the implication for marketers is there's there's obviously a risk if you're an American company, there's an opportunity if you're a Canadian company and can sort of communicate your Canadian credentials. 00:04:16:20 - 00:04:39:02 Naumi And then there's also this focus on value. But to to capture some of those people that are pulling back on spending. But ultimately, the bottom line I think for marketers is that, you know, like I said, the last month had been crazy. It's been crazy for us as market researchers, but it's been crazy for consumers. And the most important thing to remember is that right now, all of those brand decisions that consumers are making, they're they're sort of up in the air, right. 00:04:39:03 - 00:04:59:20 Naumi Like we we as marketers, we spend a lot of time thinking about, oh, how do we how do we break through? Right. How do we get our message to resonate with Canadians? And, you know, in some categories we see that it's really tough to break through. Right. Like in CPG categories, it can be 60, 70% of people are on autopilot. Well, right now that inertia around brands is broken. 00:05:00:00 - 00:05:07:03 Naumi And so it's an opportunity. And I mean, we're expecting to be very busy as market researchers in the next little bit. Let's put it that way. 00:05:07:05 - 00:05:18:04 Alison It's amazing. And it's moving at such warp speed. It's incredible. I'd love to hear if you're seeing any regional differences, because typically in Canada we would see regional differences. But I don't know that that's applying in the situation. 00:05:18:06 - 00:05:37:09 Naumi I mean, the sentiment is across the country, but we definitely do see regional differences. What's interesting is, you know, even in places where do you think, oh, well, you know, them a little bit holding back like in Quebec. Right. It's even people in Quebec now rallying around Canada and sort of that national pride. So it really is coast to coast. 00:05:37:11 - 00:05:54:06 Gregory You know, I think Naumi really hit the nail on the head in. What we're seeing in Quebec is fascinating because all of a sudden, Québecers are rallying around the Canadian flag, and we are seeing that in some of the voting intentions during the federal election in our polls. And we're also seeing it anecdotally in stories that you see in the media and in our numbers. 00:05:54:08 - 00:06:06:02 Gregory The real difference, as we're going to discuss, I think, is not regional but generational. But Canadians from coast to coast have really signed up to this Buy Canadian, Avoid American movement that we're seeing emerging. 00:06:06:04 - 00:06:18:14 Alison That's a great shout out, Greg, and I'd love you to drill down on that and really help our listeners understand the generational differences that we are seeing based on the current economic situation and how this is also impacting marketing strategies. 00:06:18:16 - 00:06:40:01 Gregory Right. And Naomi and I wrote a while ago paper called "Nuanced Nationalism", and the paper talked about how the nationalist movement or the Buy Canadian, Avoid American movement has significant generational differences. And what we're finding is that it's the Baby Boomers who are leading the charge here. Younger Canadians are more likely to put price over patriotism. Now, that's not to say that younger Canadians aren't behind this. 00:06:40:01 - 00:06:58:15 Gregory They are. And these numbers are, are still showing majorities in most groups. All age groups, in fact, have been saying that they've been changing their behaviour and they've been paying attention. But there are some generational differences. Right now, for example, 66% of Baby Boomers say that we can never again trust the Americans the same way. And that's just 45% of Gen Z. 00:06:58:17 - 00:07:15:00 Gregory We see 80% of Boomers saying that despite the current dispute with the U.S. is going to bring Canadians together, which we've been saying it's been doing, j ust 63% of Gen Z are saying that. And so these are these are, you know, big differences that do suggest there's there's some nuanced nationalism happening. And we see this in purchasing, too. 00:07:15:01 - 00:07:45:19 Gregory While 7 in 10 Canadians say that we should stand up to Trump with retaliatory tariffs, even if that means Canadians have to pay more, that number goes up to eight in ten among Boomers, and it's just five in ten among Gen Z. So Naumi alluded earlier to how Canadians are pulling back their spending. And really the group that is most affected by this, who may have the most to lose and not be able to afford to buy something that's more expensive or change their travel plans, are the younger group and the Boomers, on the other hand, who have and continue to have a lot of wealth in Canada are the ones 00:07:45:19 - 00:07:56:07 Gregory who are able to put their money where their mouth is and change their behaviour to send a signal to the Americans, and also to potentially, affect the American economy and goods. 00:07:56:08 - 00:08:10:19 Alison Greg, in addition to the financial reality for younger Canadians, are you seeing other contributing factors to why they're not as supportive of Buy Canadian or as against, what's going on from an American perspective? 00:08:10:21 - 00:08:31:21 Gregory Yeah, I think that some of the, the attachment to Canada and the, the unity question comes into play here. We see lower attachment among Gen Z'ers to Canada. And there's a variety of reasons that could be behind that. They're more likely to be new Canadians. And so they don't have the shared history. They haven't necessarily been through the ups and downs of the markets and Canada-U.S. relations that the Baby Boomers remember. 00:08:31:23 - 00:09:02:11 Gregory And, you know, you think back to the 70s and the 80s and how all of that might have changed. And of course, Baby Boomers, as I pointed out, have really benefited from the Old World Order, the old Canada that we've all enjoyed. And so for them, they just want to preserve the status quo. For younger Canadians, they feel that the status quo is broken and they want to rebuild the institutions that they don't feel have been working for them as coming up to now and, and find that this might be an opportunity to do that, or at the very least, they don't have the same level of attachment to Canada that their older parents and 00:09:02:11 - 00:09:03:20 Gregory grandparents might have. 00:09:03:22 - 00:09:27:03 Naumi And I can add to that, too. I think there's also a lot of attachment with young people to America, American brands, they, you know, they've grown up consuming American media, American social media, and a lot of the brands that are present in Canada right now are American brands. And so they've grown up with that. So there's also that sort of like Greg was saying, less of an attachment to Canada, maybe, but, you know, for some of them, more of an attachment to, to the U.S. as well. 00:09:27:05 - 00:09:40:17 Alison And building on that, with the rise of TikTok and brands outside of North America, are we seeing younger Canadians with a more global perspective, or is it still gravitating more towards the U.S. than other countries? 00:09:40:18 - 00:09:58:22 Naumi It's a it's an interesting question. We did some generational research last year, and one of the hypotheses that we had that we wanted to test was, Gen Z are potentially the first truly global generation, because they've had access to, like you said, all the social media. And so are they the first generation that globally, you know, has a shared worldview? 00:09:59:02 - 00:10:17:19 Naumi And so there is some evidence to that, it's really tough to, to, to sort of measure that we you know, we did do a study in about 15 different countries to try to get at it and see, you know, what are the commonalities that they have. And it's it's interesting, like a lot of the the differences that you'd expect it to be attributed to age were not. 00:10:17:19 - 00:10:41:07 Naumi And young people are sort of, you know, it really depends if you're left or right or sort of, where where you come from also plays a little bit of a difference. The one thing that we saw that they were truly sort of connected on was a shared sentiment and frustration, which is interesting. It's, you know, it's they are the truly first global generation in that they are all feeling that maybe they're worse off than previous generations. 00:10:41:07 - 00:10:57:12 Naumi They're all feeling a little bit more frustrated with the world right now. If you look at some of the emotions that they project, they're all, you know, a little bit more likely to be, to be frustrated, to be disengaged. And so there's there is that that we see happening. I don't know if it's as a result of social media. 00:10:57:13 - 00:11:02:18 Naumi There's still sort of a lot of open questions there. Definitely a hypothesis that we're testing. And I think there is some truth to it. 00:11:03:00 - 00:11:20:16 Gregory And I just want to add to that, Naumi and I and some of our colleagues last week did a webinar called "From the Pandemic to the Present", and we looked at some of these measures through the lens of generation and attachment. One of the most interesting questions that we talked about in that webinar was where people see their chances of success coming from. 00:11:20:18 - 00:11:40:07 Gregory We offered them an option. You know, people's chances of success and their country depend mostly on their own merit or efforts, versus people's chances of success in their country depend mostly on factors beyond their control. And this was a global question we asked of 22,000 people online. When you look at Canada, you see a really, really clear picture. 00:11:40:08 - 00:12:03:12 Gregory 56% of Boomers said it's due to merit and effort, and only 18% said factors beyond their control. But by the time you get down to Gen Z, those numbers are tied. 31% of Gen Z say that it's due to merit and 30% say it's factors beyond their control. And so we have seen globally some of this difficulty for Generation Z to get a start in life and take advantage of the institutions that their parents and grandparents had. 00:12:03:14 - 00:12:22:12 Gregory But I think that our research does show that that sentiment is stronger in Canada in some ways than it is in other places. And, you know, going back to what I was saying earlier, part of that is driven by cost, of cost of living and not having the means. But part of it, I think, too, is, as you point out, as Naumi says, based on how different their world experiences from other generations. 00:12:22:14 - 00:12:34:06 Alison That's very fascinating. Thank you both for sharing more on that. And then, Naumi, I'd love to hear from you how Canadian consumers are balancing their desire to support local brands with concerns about rising costs and affordability. 00:12:34:08 - 00:12:51:10 Naumi Yeah, and we sort of kicked the conversation off with that, right? There's the desire to buy Canadian and sort of patriotic purchasing. And then there's the you know, at the same time, it's it costs money. And so we're having to pullback right now. What we're seeing is that, Canadians are pissed and they're they're willing to absorb some pain. 00:12:51:12 - 00:13:22:04 Naumi So you know, it started off that discussion with with tariffs. And and Trump is a bit of an inconvenience. You know sort of in the news. And then it became more of an insult. And I think, you know, all the 51st state rhetoric was probably a tactical mistake on Trump's part. It ignited a lot of emotion in Canada, to the point where now, we have two thirds of Canadians that are saying we should retaliate against Trump, even if it means Canadians have to pay more for things because they want to send a message, and I don't know that that's the response Americans were expecting from Canadians. 00:13:22:04 - 00:13:43:09 Naumi That we would stand up for ourselves so much. But we're definitely seeing that right now. We're also willing, as Canadians to spend to support Canada, and even more so than than the Americans are right now. So 74% of Canadians say they had paid more for Canadian-made products in the past week. That was 66% among Americans that said that they paid more to buy American-made goods, 00:13:43:11 - 00:14:05:21 Naumi as a result of, everything that's happening right now. So, you know, south of the border, we do see shifts in purchasing, but they're much more driven by sort of financial concerns, people being more conservative. But up here in Canada, it's definitely more driven by patriotism, at least for now. So I think we'll, we'll see how long that lasts or how long we can afford our morals. 00:14:05:23 - 00:14:11:22 Naumi But right now, it seems like Canadians are willing to, to suffer a little bit to buy Canadian and to boycott the U.S. 00:14:12:00 - 00:14:25:13 Alison There are some categories where it can be more challenging to find Canadian brands and products. So is that driving the, well, if I can't find it in Canada, then as long as it's anywhere but the U.S., I feel that I'm fighting back. 00:14:25:15 - 00:14:47:01 Gregory Yeah, we're definitely seeing that. There's there's a mixture of avoid American and buy Canadian. You can't obviously buy certain products in Canada. So we're trying to find ways to to buy things like lemons from South Africa, is something that I saw in the grocery store the other day. And, you know, anecdotally, we needed some strawberries a couple of weeks ago, and there was American strawberries for $2.99. 00:14:47:01 - 00:15:09:00 Gregory And then there were, I think Canadian strawberries were $5.99 or something? And and we bought the Canadian strawberries because we were willing to, you know, put a little bit of money behind that. I think that's definitely something that's happening. But people are looking for that Canadian claim. They want to buy Canadian products where they can. And it's not always clear what a Canadian product is, how these things are measured. 00:15:09:02 - 00:15:28:00 Gregory The most impactful one is the Made in Canada label. Half of Canadians say that that label satisfies their desire to buy Canadian products. In contrast, Product of Canada is slightly lower, but we know from the CFIA requirements that the requirements for Product of Canada are actually much stronger. So 98% of the ingredients have to be Canadian. 00:15:28:01 - 00:15:46:11 Gregory The threshold for Made in Canada is quite a bit lower.... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/36261960

EP40 - Examining AI Readiness in Canadian Marketing with Steve Mast 04/11/2025

EP40 - Examining AI Readiness in Canadian Marketing with Steve Mast Why should Canadian marketers care about AI today? Join CMA CEO Alison Simpson as she sits down with Steve Mast, Co-Founder and Partner at Twenty44, to uncover fresh research on how ready (or not) Canada’s marketing community is for AI. Discover practical examples of AI in action, learn how to tackle governance and training gaps, and get a glimpse into the future of AI-driven marketing. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:08 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:10 - 00:00:50:02 Alison In today's episode, we will share a new research on how the Canadian marketing community is preparing for and embracing AI. It's definitely one of the hottest topics in our profession, and we have new Canadian insights and data on how ready or not marketers are. We also have valuable learning on how they're activating the opportunities that AI represents. Joining me today is Steve Mast, the co-founder and partner of Twenty44, the company who led the research with the CMA. 00:00:50:04 - 00:01:12:09 Alison Steve is a marketing leader and entrepreneur who built his career and a number of very successful businesses by focusing on innovation and helping transform organizations' business models so that they can meet the needs and demands of today's economy. Steve didn't follow a traditional path. He was educated as an architect and began his career as a video game designer before joining Delvinia, 00:01:12:09 - 00:01:36:14 Alison a market research and data collection company. Over the next 20 years, Steve built their digital marketing and product teams, launching three innovative new businesses before selling the businesses in 2021. Throughout his career, Steve has consistently given back to our profession, including serving on the CMA board for eight years, two as chair. So, Steve, thank you very much for all you do to give back to our profession as well. 00:01:36:16 - 00:01:56:21 Alison Today, Steve and I are digging into the research findings to discuss how ready Canadian marketers are for AI. We'll share key learning from the study and talk about the AI adoption curve. We're also going to discuss the massive opportunity that AI represents for smart marketers to leverage, to lead, and to own AI in a bigger way across organizations. 00:01:56:23 - 00:01:58:08 Alison Welcome, Steve. 00:01:58:10 - 00:02:04:04 Steve Thank you, Alison, and thank you for that lovely introduction as well. And it is always a pleasure to spend time with you. 00:02:04:06 - 00:02:10:19 Alison The feeling is very mutual. So we're going to start by having you share who participated in the study. 00:02:10:21 - 00:02:29:20 Steve I think before we get into maybe the Who, maybe start a little bit with the how we did it, just to make sure everybody's clear in terms of the approach we took. So one of the things we really wanted to do was not only collect the data and get the sort of the statistical side of things, but also get a little sense of how people were really feeling. 00:02:29:20 - 00:02:45:23 Steve So we really wanted to combine a bit of a quantitative and qualitative approach to this as well. The other thing we wanted to do too, because this is a subject around AI, we were like, well, let's use some of these fantastic AI-based tools to be able to collect the information and conduct the research as well. 00:02:46:00 - 00:03:11:21 Steve And I'm proud to say it's a Canadian company called Nexxt and their platform, Inca, which we ended up using to actually collect the data as well. So the CMA marketing community, as normally did not disappoint in terms of providing us with some fantastic results and ideas as well. The good thing was we really aimed to get obviously a broad cross-section of the community, and we absolutely did that. 00:03:11:21 - 00:03:40:09 Steve So there was kind of like about a 50/50 split between brands and service company, agencies as well. Really good representation across sort of companies. Size almost 50% were kind of that 1 to 250 employees, but a quarter of them that participated worked at organizations that had 5000 plus employees. So really good representation. I'd also say things like age, job function, those kinds of things. 00:03:40:09 - 00:03:50:19 Steve So surprisingly enough, too, we had very, very senior people, even some CMOs participated, as well as right down to kind of the manager level as well. So really good cross-section of people. 00:03:51:00 - 00:03:59:12 Alison So I'd love to hear what were the top insights from the study and which ones did you expect and what were you really surprised by? 00:03:59:13 - 00:04:22:22 Steve There was really kind of a couple things sort of jumped out and maybe they weren't necessarily surprises. They were probably more we kind of expected it. But there is one thing that I thought was quite interesting. And then another thing that I think is really important for us to be mindful of. So I think from an expectation perspective, marketers have always tended to be very early adopters to new technology. 00:04:22:22 - 00:04:45:15 Steve I don't think that's any sort of surprise. You think of sort of the history of things like e-commerce or social media or mobile. Typically, marketers were sort of on the forefront of experimenting with those various different new technologies. In fact, about three quarters of the participants cited that they're using AI or generative AI on a weekly basis for business purposes. 00:04:45:17 - 00:05:13:13 Steve But the one sort of caveat I would say about this is, of that three quarters of people, about 80% of them said they're using personal AI account, so they're not using the ones that are really provided to them by the organizations. But when we kind of dug a little bit deeper and we looked at factors like; how knowledgeable they are with generative AI, or do they understand the limitations or even how to apply it in the business, like apply it to specific areas within marketing? 00:05:13:15 - 00:05:33:22 Steve Or I think even the most important thing, which I just touched on a little bit, is the ethical piece of it, the risks associated to it. I would say, surprisingly, it's a really average. The sort of, the community is, is quite sort of kind of below what I would have expected sort of knowledge workers to be. Now again, could be just we're very early days with this as well, and that could be part of it. 00:05:33:22 - 00:05:56:14 Steve And there's still a steep learning curve. I'm not. Which leads me to my second point, which again, something that is not a big surprise and kind of expected. And marketers say over and over again, they are super time-strapped. They've got more channels, more different types of consumer groups to deal with, more types of technology to leverage. They're pushing out more content than ever before. 00:05:56:16 - 00:06:19:23 Steve And by the way, the organization is also asking them to do more with less. So budgets are really strapped as well. So all of those things are putting pressure on them. So they're they're really looking for can AI be an unlock for them to really find those time saving opportunities? Overwhelmingly, even though they're using it a lot, they're really not seeing the benefit of this as of yet. 00:06:19:23 - 00:06:48:10 Steve And and by the way, I wouldn't sort of take that, sort of paint that brush across everybody. I think it just depends on what you're doing. But I would say just as an overall, they're not really finding the benefits. And I think this really comes down to really two fundamental foundational issues that are really going on. So one - almost half, like 44% of the members, really did not know or were not clear what the organization's policy was. 00:06:48:11 - 00:07:11:02 Steve So this is a governance challenge, right. And they're asking the questions around, the policy is vague and doesn't really specify on what restrictions, how do I use it. So it tends to be kind of again, sort of a sort of a one size fits all. And marketers have very unique needs. So there's a real challenge around sort of policy and governance with that as well. 00:07:11:04 - 00:07:31:06 Steve The second thing, which I think is leading to this thing where they're really not seeing the benefits from it, is, again, a little more than half, about 56%, said they either not getting training or was really ineffective. And again, when they say that, it's not that they're not being maybe taught some prompt engineering or some basic elements around, 00:07:31:06 - 00:07:55:00 Steve and by the way, CMA provides all kinds of great training around this, but they're not necessarily seeing the benefits of the training or they're not getting specific training around the areas that matter to them. So they're not really understanding the proficiency around how to use generative AI. They want to see results, right? They feel like this is a great mechanism or vehicle or new technology, but they're not seeing the benefits yet. 00:07:55:02 - 00:08:16:10 Alison That's definitely fascinating, and I am very surprised that more of them are not seeing the benefits yet. And when you talked about the 44% that don't know what their company's guidelines and rules around leveraging it, obviously that's a huge gap that needs to be closed. But is it also contributing to why so many marketers are using their personal accounts instead of business accounts? 00:08:16:12 - 00:08:44:15 Steve Yeah, this this really comes back to the the risk piece that I brought up before. So what's happening is organizations, like most new technologies, there tends to be either someone in the organization, there's either like a CEO, like a centre of excellence that's created around this, or there's a group that's been tasked with this. And often when it comes to these kinds of technologies, it tends to be sort of IT or technology that say, okay, we're going to take this on. 00:08:44:15 - 00:09:11:05 Steve We're going to work with the various different business units and create policies and governance in this course. And also too, it's not, nobody's really sure exactly how it's going to affect marketing, HR or other business functions within an organization. So there was actually a really interesting story. I was meeting with a marketer who will remain nameless a couple of weeks ago, and they pointed out that, yeah, they're running into this all the time, but they figured out workarounds. 00:09:11:07 - 00:09:33:20 Steve So in other words, they're sort of skirting around the policies or the restrictions that are in place because they know where they can actually be able to use it. So that idea that, you know, overall, people aren't seeing the benefits, but when you get into the specifics or people sort of go rogue a little bit, they start to see the real benefits of where it can fit into their specific job function, 00:09:33:20 - 00:09:49:23 Steve the specific area. I mentioned to this individual when we were talking, I was like, do you understand the risks that you're putting an organization under? And they're like, sure. But coming back to that point number one, I only got so many hours in a day and so many people and budgets are tight. I need these kinds of tools. 00:09:49:23 - 00:09:57:15 Steve So there is a there's a bit of a rub starting to happen here between governance and also the effective use of it as well. 00:09:57:17 - 00:10:18:00 Alison Yeah. And there are lots of organizations and members that are in a highly-regulated industry. So that makes it even more challenging. But to the example that you highlight, people will find a workaround because they want the efficiencies and the benefits, and then they also, for their own continual development and to ensure they're staying relevant, they need to understand 00:10:18:00 - 00:10:32:16 Alison Gen AI, and we can experiment to a point in our personal lives, but to be able to use it for business applications is going to help future-proof the marketers as well. So I absolutely understand the desire to find workarounds when you don't have clarity. 00:10:32:18 - 00:11:06:15 Steve Yeah. I think just to add to that one last point, because this is actually, I think is a really important subject around understanding the risks associated to it or the ethical implications of using it, against what the policies are. So yes, there are risks associated by going rogue and finding workarounds, these kinds of things around it. What's also interesting about, again, you think back of when I mentioned social media a couple of times, we could, or IT could, potentially block certain things a lot easier than they're able to do with AI. 00:11:06:17 - 00:11:27:04 Steve The other big thing with AI, too, and I'm not talking about kind of the standard models you see out there, whether it be ChatGPT or Gemini or those kinds of things. AI is being built into every application. So you may have a contract with somebody and it's already built inside of they're starting to use it or leverage it, but that's not been a sanctioned use of AI. 00:11:27:04 - 00:11:50:03 Steve Or, what data are you uploading that to make that function actually work properly? So this idea of like being able to do the workarounds. Sure. But it's, it's almost a it's beyond a wild west at this point. It feels like IT has their work cut out trying to put some kind of corral around this sort of wild stallion that's that's been sort of let loose. 00:11:50:03 - 00:11:54:15 Steve And it seems to be more challenging now than it has been in past technologies. 00:11:54:17 - 00:12:01:18 Alison That's such a great call out. So how is the marketing community using it and how do they plan to leverage it in the future? 00:12:01:19 - 00:12:19:20 Steve We sort of talked about marketers being early adopters. So they're looking across their entire supply chain and saying, you know what? We can see benefits across the board. So just a couple of quick examples. I worked in the market research industry for a long time. So I kind of know that industry fairly well. So I can kind of point at that. 00:12:19:22 - 00:12:39:19 Steve And if you think of within the market research industry or the sort of supply chain that sort of brings it together from briefing to questionnaire development to survey programming to data collection, to analysis, to report all those kinds of pieces in between as well. There is a ton of areas where AI or generative AI could support that. 00:12:40:01 - 00:12:58:11 Steve Questionnaire development would be a perfect sample of that, or even actually to the point of this study, we generated the questions, but then we deployed it using AI. And then it would then continue sort of asking the questions as it went along and did a lot of the initial analysis before sort of human eyes took a look at it as well. 00:12:58:11 - 00:13:21:01 Steve So there are many examples within kind of market research. I'd say the other big area would be on the, call it content or concept development area as well. So early stage concepts, right, where you may have like hey, let's take a look at 14 ideas and then narrow it down to the top three. And maybe we'll go out and test those top three ideas. 00:13:21:01 - 00:13:45:17 Steve So in that area I would say there's there's a lot of usage and appetite to use it as well, particularly in areas like video production. So we're working with a client right now that's actually trying to take long format, bring it into short format, or to cut up or to distribute, small video content across 14 different platforms out there. 00:13:45:19 - 00:14:07:05 Steve It's a big task. So AI, particularly generative AI can do this at just a breakneck speed, and I can see a lot of benefits, and they can too. And they're starting to sort of leverage it. I think the areas that people are more, just a little more cautious around is a probably better way to put it is when you start looking at asset development of actual end ad creative, those kinds of things. 00:14:07:05 - 00:14:28:19 Steve I think there's still a lot of, sort of and I'm not talking about, hey, replicate this ad, and create a bunch of ads, you know, digital ads that are going to be distributed. I'm talking about like real brand creative. I think there's still a lot of questions around, it could maybe assist in parts of it, but actually producing the entire thing, I think, is something where there's a lot of questions around it. 00:14:28:21 - 00:14:53:20 Steve The area that I think in terms of, from a future perspective, that really is being looked at, being used, it's the optimization of programs or campaigns in field. If you start to think back around, right message, right person, right time, mobile, social media, data, they kind of unlock that promise. But always the challenge has been us as humans. 00:14:53:21 - 00:15:13:20 Steve So we've always been sort of in the way of being able to really scale that at any sort of meaningful way, because we can only look at things so quickly. So, whereas those technologies have given us the platforms and the vehicles to be able to do it and be able to be more precise about getting that right message to the right person, 00:15:13:22 - 00:15:37:11 Steve AI holds that opportunity, especially because the human interface where you're telling it, I would like to optimize this program to then go after this specific audience, or I'd like to push harder on that audience, because there's a little piece of data that's coming out that it's like, you know what? It's really not teens, it's really pre-teens. So it's getting that really narrow message that we can go after. 00:15:37:13 - 00:15:51:22 Steve So I think that's where AI and generative AI, in terms of the sort of the optimization, media optimization, campaign optimization could really benefit and get really get the right at the right person. 00:15:52:00 - 00:16:10:01 Alison Those are great examples. There's also a broader business efficiency perspective, like when I think about online reviews and how much effort it took historically to pull and analyze and see the trends and themes out of that, AI, Gen AI can absolutely be such an accelerator on that as well. 00:16:10:03 - 00:16:33:09 Steve So one of my business partners, she talks a lot about, that seems to be coming out of this data and also other organizations we're working with is, just do some of these, you know, like I want to call them administrative things, but can you just do some of these things that I, just back to that time thing, something I just do not have the capacity to do it because I really need to be able to do these other things as well. 00:16:33:09 - 00:17:00:00 Steve So I think we tend to lean towards, you know, concepts and creative and look at the content it's creating. And then, you know, you often hear people say, I want to do the creative part of it. You know, like, I kind of want it to do my laundry, right? That's kind of what I want it to do. Right? So so in that case, what you're saying around, I would definitely say that's something particularly the the market community are definitely hungry for it to do more of as well. 00:17:00:02 - 00:17:21:01 Alison Yeah. So easy to focus on a part of the job that we don't want to give up, instead of realizing that we all have parts of our jobs that we would love to have a smart assistant take on for us. The other powerful way I've seen it used as if you're going into a big presentation and you want to sort of validate the story you're telling or see what sort of tough questions you could face, 00:17:21:03 - 00:17:26:03 Alison Gen AI has been a great ally for me in, in that sort of meeting preparation as well. 00:17:26:05 - 00:17:58:23 Steve I also, to your... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/36083015

EP39 - The Power of Direct Mail with Danielle Doiron and Marc Cooper 03/25/2025

EP39 - The Power of Direct Mail with Danielle Doiron and Marc Cooper Is direct mail outdated? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Danielle Doiron, General Manager of Marketing at Canada Post and Marc Cooper, President of Junction 59. Their discussion explores how direct mail has evolved and is thriving in today's digital-dominated marketing landscape. They provide insights on leveraging direct mail and share career advice for aspiring marketing professionals, emphasizing the importance of curiosity and deep business understanding. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:24:15 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:24:17 - 00:00:48:06 Alison Welcome to today's episode of CMA Connect, where we will be diving into the evolving world of direct mail and modern marketing and brand building. In a world where digital platforms are continually expanding, you may be a bit surprised to learn that direct mail isn't just surviving, it's actually thriving. This episode will explore how direct mail complements digital strategies to deliver impactful results and strengthen brand connections. 00:00:48:08 - 00:01:10:12 Alison Joining me today are two marketing leaders representing both the marketer and the agency perspectives. First, I'm very happy to welcome Danielle Doiron, the General Manager of Marketing at Canada Post. Over the last 22 years, Danielle's excelled at putting customers first, innovating and leading marketing and business initiatives that deliver really strong results. Joining us today is also Marc Cooper, the President of Junction 59. 00:01:10:14 - 00:01:32:22 Alison Marc has extensive experience in creating award-winning campaigns for sectors that are as diverse as financial services, telco and a wide range of small businesses. As a leader at Junction 59, Marc has guided digital transformations and mentored emerging talent focused on delivering the best outcome for clients. So together, we're going to discuss how direct mail can enhance both branding and sales efforts. 00:01:33:00 - 00:01:40:20 Alison We're going to share some successful case studies, and we're also going to do a little bit of myth-busting around traditional marketing channels. So welcome, Danielle and Marc. 00:01:40:22 - 00:01:43:12 Danielle Hi Alison. March Thank you for having us. 00:01:43:14 - 00:01:52:15 Alison So I'd love to kick off our conversation by asking the question, why should brand and performance marketers reconsider direct mail in the digital age? 00:01:52:17 - 00:02:16:10 Danielle Well, DM has been around for a long time. I think we're, we're all aware of that. And as new media opportunities are continually introduced, sometimes we can forget how the power and the impact that that direct mail can, can have. Direct mail just engages differently. And there's, there's a lot of proof that it doesn't just grab attention, it actually sticks with people. 00:02:16:12 - 00:02:48:05 Danielle DM and the physical aspect of direct mail allows a brand to engage with, you know, a consumer or a customer in a pretty intimate way. But its power doesn't stop there, it it actually, its power also lies in its, in its ability to drive action or drive response to a call to action. If you think about a beautifully designed catalogue that's made its way into the home, it's sitting on a coffee table and think about how it, you know, it helps the brand tell a compelling story. 00:02:48:05 - 00:03:09:09 Danielle Perhaps it helps to introduce, you know, a collection or a product. You know, it tempts the consumer to spend a bit of time, maybe flip through. And I also think it does a really strong job of, of inspiring someone to take action or maybe engage in, in the shopping experience. It's got staying power. It drives brand awareness. 00:03:09:09 - 00:03:36:14 Danielle And if done right and embedded with the right response mechanisms, it can even encourage that shopping experience to continue into a digital environment or a store environment. We spend a lot of time studying the impact of direct mail, and we know that neuroscience tells us that the brain processes direct mail 20% faster than, digital advertising, and it also retains it, which means it gives, 00:03:36:14 - 00:04:11:19 Danielle you know, direct mail has a competitive advantage as it relates to driving emotional engagement and recall. And it gives marketers a competitive advantage and an ability to stand out in what can be a really cluttered marketing landscape sometimes. A great example of that would be actually J.Crew. So they had reintroduced their iconic catalog and engaged, you know, their, their customers and consumers in sort of that nostalgic experience and, and flipping through the pages of that J.Crew catalog and having a brand experience with it. 00:04:11:21 - 00:04:35:10 Danielle But what they did, which is really brilliant, is they, they did embed some of those response mechanisms. You know, they drove to, they used QR codes, you know, to drive to a digital environment. They had personalized, interactive, you know, elements to that catalogue. And it succeeded in helping to drive, you know, engagement from the catalogue or the or the the DM experience into the store or the digital experience. 00:04:35:10 - 00:05:02:20 Danielle And I have to tell you from a personal standpoint, as a deep lover of J.Crew, who is still mourning the loss of of our retail stores in Canada, that brand catalogue has become a brand lifeline, actually for me. It is, you know, it's the closest thing to the, you know, the J.Crew experience shopping experience, you know, that I have now and it has maintained my brand affinity and connection to that, to that particular brand. 00:05:02:21 - 00:05:11:12 Danielle So any time I'm traveling anywhere or I'm in close proximity to a J.Crew location, it inspires me to make sure that it is part of my stop. 00:05:11:14 - 00:05:44:00 Marc And you know, what's really interesting is that as much as we love that physical connection and feeling it and having that emotional connection to DM, direct mail also delivers to the bottom line. It delivers as much as a 29% ROI on average, which is comparable, I think, to paid search and actually outperforms online display ads. So when you integrate that direct mail with digital campaigns, you actually can even boost the response rate higher, by as much as 63%. 00:05:44:02 - 00:05:55:03 Marc So pairing direct mail with digital tools creates that seamless journey from the mailbox to online experiences, really amplifying the impact across all the channels that you touch. 00:05:55:05 - 00:06:31:20 Alison I love the stats, and I really love the case study, as well as the memory glue of direct mail over digital is incredibly powerful. All of us are in the roles we're in to drive business results, so a 29% ROI absolutely gets my attention. And I know we'll get our listeners attention as well. And then building on your J.Crew story, when I was the CMO at Holt Renfrew, the catalog that we did each year to our most top customers, we were able to create such a luxurious experience for them that absolutely resonated and drove both online and in-store business and allowed them to dream. 00:06:31:20 - 00:06:54:23 Alison So absolutely can relate personally and in previous roles to the power of direct mail. So I'll take us a little bit in a different direction. Marketers really need to build their brands, and they also need to be driving very strong business outcomes. And let's be honest, that's not easy. So I'd love to hear how direct mail can effectively build a brand while also driving performance marketing outcomes. 00:06:55:01 - 00:07:16:09 Danielle Direct mail is actually unique because it doesn't, it doesn't require you to choose between, you know, leveraging it to build brand or leveraging it to drive performance and business outcome. It actually can do both, and it can do both within the same piece. And the other thing that makes a direct mail particularly interesting is its versatility across industries as well. 00:07:16:09 - 00:07:42:12 Danielle So we already talked about retail, talked about the example of catalogue. You raise such a good point, Alison. And we can't be the only ones that took note of what was happening in retail last year as it relates to catalogue. Catalogue had a resurgence. Think about all the brands that had incorporated, either revisited, incorporated for the first time, or those that where it's just really a tried and true investment in their overall media mix. 00:07:42:14 - 00:08:07:00 Danielle You know, Amazon, Sephora, Mastermind, Costco, Canadian Tire, like the list goes on and on. But it seemed to have grown last year. And that's because it doesn't, it doesn't just allow an individual to have an experience with a brand, it actually kicks off the selling process itself and catalogue's such a great vehicle to inspire. Whether that's how could I tackle a redesign of a room styling, a, you know, an outfit, you know? 00:08:07:02 - 00:08:32:00 Danielle It also delivers tangible product information that helps to remove barriers to purchase; descriptions, sizes, facts . And then when you incorporate things like QR codes, it does you know, it does allow for a movement quickly into the into the shopping experience itself. It's inspiration and it's action really coming together. It doesn't even have to be anything that, quite that sophisticated as a catalogue. 00:08:32:00 - 00:09:00:05 Danielle It can be a postcard, you know, and that's really more performance, a more performance-driven DM piece, you know, where it's reflecting, you know, reflective of brand. Maybe it's highlighting a high-demand product or a new product launch. You know, integrating an offer in there can have a really strong impact on on conversion. And we, as you might expect, you know, being with Canada Post, we incorporate direct mail, you know, in in a number of different ways in our own marketing mix. 00:09:00:05 - 00:09:27:10 Danielle And we do it targeting audiences. You know, so we have a really great line of sight to the powerful use cases where DM can drive, you know, particularly impressive outcomes and results. In one, one area comes to mind is with our small business customer base. DM is a really important customer acquisition tool for us. We welcome 100,000 new small business customers to our program each year, and DM plays a really big role in that. 00:09:27:15 - 00:09:47:18 Danielle And we know two things about DM. One of them is it allows us to spend a moment to provide deeper information on the value of our program and its benefits to, to this customer base. And that's a really important aspect of DM as it relates to how do we how do we convert and acquire these small business customers? 00:09:47:19 - 00:10:06:22 Danielle But we also know that a small business customer isn't necessarily ready at that at that point in time to respond. The other thing we've seen about the power of DM is its long tail impact. Maybe a small business is in ideation mode around, you know, around, you know, what their business could look like. Maybe they're getting started and they're now seeking partners. 00:10:07:00 - 00:10:35:00 Danielle Maybe they're scaling for growth. So we'll see response to those small business DM campaigns a month, six months later, a year later. And it's because the small business holds on until they're ready to respond. And they do. And I think this example translates really, really well into the financial services space where, you know, personalization, trust, relevance is so very key. 00:10:35:02 - 00:11:02:05 Danielle And, you know, you have a lot of data, you have a lot of insight on your customers. Maybe, you know, DM could be used in cases like you've got a customer coming up for mortgage renewal. And it's an opportunity for you to demonstrate maybe a little bit more of a marketing investment in that customer that you wish to retain, and it allows you to deliver a little bit more insight into or information about, you know, the renewal details, the renewal offer, something a bit more personalized. 00:11:02:07 - 00:11:24:05 Danielle And and when you combine it with QR codes to drive to a digital environment, allowing, you know, presenting maybe, you know, an online booking tool, it actually takes the barriers out of responding to that, you know, you know, to that offer and you know, to that opportunity. You know, sometimes the research process and the selling process can be a little bit longer. 00:11:24:05 - 00:11:52:10 Danielle So take an investment planning campaign, for example, and the ability for DM to be to be able to communicate something very curated and personalized to a recipient, a recipient and a better program. And it could be based on their income level, their age, their goals. Now, when you pair that with digital tools like, you know, calculators and personalized dashboards, you're really providing a connected journey that empowers the customer, offers an even greater value and builds loyalty with that. 00:11:52:14 - 00:12:28:12 Marc One of my favourite campaigns from many years ago, was actually a retirement planning campaign for a financial institution. And the mailer was actually designed to reach out to people who were nearing retirement to give them some personalized insights. And we loaded it up with data based on who they were. Not personal personal data, but personal data that reflected their life stage and their investment portfolio, and made recommendations and suggestions of what they could do next, and also invited them into a one-on-one consultation. 00:12:28:14 - 00:12:59:14 Marc And it's those kinds of touch-points, I think, that really enhance the credibility and strengthen the client relationship that ends up driving action to, you know, meet with that investment advisor or do the next step. I think direct mail really shines here as more than a physical channel when you pair it with data and digital integration or in-person integration, you know, it's really a tool for creating tailored, impactful experiences that clients actually value and remember. 00:13:01:11 - 00:13:34:01 Danielle You know, non-profits actually really excel here, too. I mean, their their strength is in their ability to tell very, you know, emotional stories about the things that they do. And so you take an organization like the Canadian Cancer Society. They use DM to tell very heartfelt, meaningful, compelling stories about their patient's journeys. And when you pair that with clear donation pathways, that make, it makes, you know, giving easy and you know, it allows you to feel good about it. 00:13:34:06 - 00:13:58:01 Marc And, you know, we've always found direct mail to be an incredibly effective tool for not for profit, because it serves that dual purpose - building brand awareness and driving donations. On the awareness side, it really lets organizations tell that compelling story about their mission and their impact, and that helps them create that deeper emotional connection with their donors. 00:13:58:03 - 00:14:30:11 Marc And then, of course, consistent branding plays a crucial role in long term brand building, you know, reinforcing these connections while establishing and maintaining trust. We've talked about trust a little bit a number of times, I think, today. But at the same time that direct mail is functioning as a performance marketing piece because it's got really clear calls to action, you know, personalized appeals, urgent messaging that implies or rather urgent messaging that inspires immediate support. 00:14:30:12 - 00:15:03:21 Marc For example, we've worked with MADD Canada and Save the Children to have these work brilliantly across their campaigns. The direct mail efforts combined impactful storytelling with clear donation pathways, delivering really measurable fundraising results. And they don't just reach donors either. They engage them emotionally. So it's not just about getting to them, it's about engaging with them and motivating them to act and leave that lasting impression of the organization's brand and mission. 00:15:03:23 - 00:15:24:16 Marc So when it's done right, direct mail for not for profits builds really strong foundation for long term donor relationships while still delivering those measurable results. It's this ability to achieve both the storytelling and the action is why direct mail remains really such a powerful tool for not for profits. 00:15:24:18 - 00:15:52:06 Alison It's really helpful, the way you're bringing the role of direct mail and the power of direct mail to life with these examples. And just to see how broad an impact it can have. Recently I read some research around performance and brand marketing because it has arbitrarily been a bit of a separation in the marketing profession, and there's some great research by Analytic Partners that showed a combined approach can generate a medium uplift of 90% while treating brand and performance marketing 00:15:52:06 - 00:16:14:16 Alison as separate goals results in a penalty of 40%. So if you think about that and then apply it to direct mail, where you can actually do both in the same vehicle, that's an incredibly powerful opportunity for a lot of our listeners. So with digital dominating marketing to a large degree, the power of more traditional channels like direct mail and a more holistic and integrated marketing approach can often be forgotten. 00:16:14:18 - 00:16:22:01 Alison How does direct mail integrate with digital channels to amplify both branding and sales efforts? Danielle, do you want to start? 00:16:22:03 - 00:17:02:00 Danielle I mean, we're big believers in they're better together. And actually DM's ability to integrate with digital is one of its most exciting strengths. It's never one or the other. It's actually the sum of the parts that holds the greatest power, because we know that when paired, they amplify one another. And so I think any marketer who is is listening to this associated with the CMA knows, you know, the power of both in the mix and that it is the one-two punch or the really strategic sequencing of digital and DM that drives the greatest outcome for awareness. 00:17:02:02 - 00:17:35:03 Danielle It is a big influence of consideration and and certainly response, and even how you embed digital consideration in DM is really, really important. So, you know, whether that's personalized URLs, QR codes or augmented reality features, you know, that helps to create that very seamless or connected bridge between, you know, a physical piece or what's in your mailbox and your, you know, your online or physical channels or your online and physical experiences. 00:17:35:05 - 00:17:55:05 Danielle You know, we talked a lot about QR codes and for good reason, given their versatility. But they're just, they're really just one part of the puzzle. A postcard, you can take a postcard, for example, and link directly to a personalized landing page tailored to the recipient, while self mailer could do something like embed interactive elements, that get your, you know, recipient engaged. 00:17:55:07 - 00:18:07:02 Danielle You know, whether that's video, survey, quizzes, maybe even helping you capture a little bit more intelligence about about your customer, or about your prospective customer as well, but certainly all boost engagement. 00:18:07:04 - 00:18:32:13 Marc Yeah. And, you know, the integration actually works across generations, too. I think there's a tendency to think that younger audiences like Gen Z don't actually pay attention to direct mail, but we've got some really great research that says they spend an average of 12 minutes engaging with their mail, and they actually find addressed mail more... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/35842590

EP38 - Leveling the Playing Field: Women's Professional Sports with Allison Sandmeyer-Graves 03/11/2025

EP38 - Leveling the Playing Field: Women's Professional Sports with Allison Sandmeyer-Graves What opportunities can women's professional sports create? In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, welcomes Allison Sandmeyer-Graves, the CEO of Canadian Women & Sport. They discuss how the momentum of women's professional sports can dismantle barriers women and girls face in society, including issues related to politics, representation on corporate boards, gender-based violence, and pay equality. They highlight the rise of professional women's sports in Canada and their impact on physical and mental health. They also cover the growing investment in women's sports leagues and teams, and the role marketers and brands play in supporting them. Allison also encourages anyone with CEO ambitions to invest in the relationships they build. 00:00:00:05 - 00:00:12:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast with your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:12:21 - 00:00:36:10 Alison Women in professional sport are finally getting their moment, which is outstanding news for girls and women at all levels of sport. Now, while this is certainly an important and exciting progress, it's also a starting point. We have a long way to go to get to the finish line and to truly achieve equity. In today's episode, we will explore what led to the long overdue rise of professional women's sport and why it's so important. 00:00:36:12 - 00:00:57:18 Alison We'll discuss why it's about so much more than sport, and talk about the broader societal impact that it represents. We're also speaking to the rebalancing that's underway, the opportunity the opportunity that represents for savvy brands, and how marketers can help accelerate the great momentum we currently have. Joining me today is Allison Sandmeyer-Graves, who is the CEO of Canadian Women in Sport. 00:00:57:20 - 00:01:22:12 Alison Allison's an experienced social impact professional, who's motivated by the potential for systemic change. She also believes that we achieve the greatest outcomes when we can harness the resources of diverse sectors. Allison loves the challenge of building collaborative platforms that will drive innovative solutions, create shared value and help empower communities. That's why she's such a terrific fit for and has thrived in her current role for nine years. 00:01:22:14 - 00:01:48:05 Alison Canadian Women in Sport, the organization that Allison leads, is dedicated to creating an equitable and inclusive Canadian sport and physical activity system that empowers girls and women as active participants and as leaders. And that's within and through sport, with a focus on systemic change, Canadian Women in Sport partners with organizations, governments and leaders to challenge the status quo and build better sport through gender equity. 00:01:48:07 - 00:01:54:08 Alison It's a mission very close to my heart, and it's a true pleasure to welcome my namesake, Allison, to the podcast today. 00:01:54:10 - 00:01:58:09 Allison Hello. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. 00:01:58:09 - 00:02:03:21 Alison I would love to start by having you share a bit about your organization and the very important impact that you're having. 00:02:03:23 - 00:02:24:11 Allison I love talking about Canadian women in sport. I think for many people who are tuning in, who have experienced the power of sport in their lives, I mean, that is what our organization is truly about. Taking a sport system that for decades has done things in a certain way and frankly, served some people better than others. 00:02:24:13 - 00:02:52:11 Allison And making it more inclusive and more equitable so that as many girls and women as possible, can access the tremendous benefits of sport. And we do this work because we believe that sport is a platform for broad social change. When you think about the individual benefits that sport brings to people's lives and how that makes them stronger in their abilities and in the opportunities afforded to them. 00:02:52:13 - 00:03:34:05 Allison When you think about sport as a platform for leadership and the need for more women in all forms of leadership in our society, that is what really motivates us. That's what gets us excited. The idea of using sport as a vehicle for for bigger change for women and girls, and we do that by working within the system itself. Making the sport system more inclusive, more equitable, not fixing the girls, not fixing the women, but really looking at how can we take the way that sport is delivered, the way it's governed, the policies, the practices, the culture, and create more fairness so that girls and women are welcomed in, are supported and engaged to be part 00:03:34:05 - 00:03:42:06 Allison of this and are able to thrive, as we say, in sport, but also well beyond through sport. 00:03:42:07 - 00:04:10:02 Alison It's such an important mandate and I know from our earlier conversations, we both have personally benefited from being involved in sport early in our lives and it led to so many great professional and personal experiences that really made us the leaders we are today. So I am so passionate about the mission of your organization and the important role that you're playing for future generations, as well as helping to nurture truly professional athletes. 00:04:10:02 - 00:04:13:10 Allison Not a role that I ever aspired to, but without sport 00:04:13:10 - 00:04:22:12 Alison I truly wouldn't be the person or the leader that I am today. So I want more of Canadians and Canadian women and girls in particular, to be able to benefit from that. 00:04:22:14 - 00:04:53:03 Allison Absolutely. You know, I have the great privilege of encountering so many Olympians and Paralympians. And so I always feel, like I need to say, I'm a very average athlete. But, but I think what's great about sport is that you can you can take it as far as your interests and your abilities can take you. And in Canada, that increasingly means to a livelihood, to a professional livelihood, as an athlete. 00:04:53:05 - 00:05:13:07 Allison But you you don't need to aspire to that. And you don't need to achieve at those levels to get all of these benefits, to get the physical health benefits, the mental health benefits, the resiliency, the, the ability to set goals and strive towards them, to work as a team. There's, you know, so much that can come from sport. 00:05:13:09 - 00:05:36:20 Allison There's so much at stake, I would say, for women and girls, in our society to access these sorts of things and, I, I want the whole, the whole pyramid, if you will, all the way from professional right down to the grassroots. But it's really about getting as many Canadian women and girls playing and experiencing this as possible. 00:05:36:20 - 00:05:40:06 Allison And the whole ecosystem has to work together to create that. 00:05:40:08 - 00:05:49:05 Alison Absolutely. Now, building on that, what led you to join the organization nine years ago, I think it was 35 years old at the time, and how has it evolved under your leadership? 00:05:49:07 - 00:06:18:10 Allison I was, so intrigued by by the mission, by the mandate. You know, we've already spoken about, you know, my personal experiences of the power of sport. I'm a social impact person. So my career has been in the nonprofit space. I really like being part of contributing to big movements that help to, this is going to sound so corny, but, like, make a better world, right? 00:06:18:10 - 00:06:52:15 Allison I want to contribute to communities and societies and the sort of change that, I want to see and the sort of the society that I want to live in. So that's what really motivates me. I think at the time it was known as CAWS, some people who are tuning in may know it as that, now Canadian Women in Sport, you know, had been around for three and a half decades and it had such, such a wonderful reputation for really credible work, for strong advocacy, 00:06:52:17 - 00:07:24:23 Allison great, just was, was a wonderful resource within the sport system for those who wanted to be part of making a better sports system and unlocking the potential therein. At the same time, big mandate, you know, all sport, physical activity, all of Canada, all levels, very little capacity. And so, it was a wonderful challenge to step into as a leader to say, okay, there's something really great here. 00:07:24:23 - 00:07:50:19 Allison There's this wonderful set of assets. But how can we, how can we expand the impact? How can we take it further? Obviously a lot of pressure. A lot of people had done a lot of work to get it to that point, and I felt a big responsibility in stepping into that role, to to really take their vision for this organization and the sport system and the impact that they wanted to have and steward it forward. 00:07:50:21 - 00:08:20:07 Allison And the beautiful thing is, is that, as I think I would say, luck would have it, you know, there was government interest and investment in the women's movement and in women's sport that was just around the corner. And some really wonderful things happening around. And so we've been part of building this big movement for women's sport in the country, but also joined by so many others who've been so essential to this organization's growth and development and the movement as a whole. 00:08:20:09 - 00:08:39:21 Alison That's amazing. And if making the world a better place is corny, then let's embrace corny. We should all have that as one of our core purposes in life. Now, you've clearly accomplished a lot. And this might be a tough question because of everything that you've done, but what accomplishments are you most proud of? 00:08:39:23 - 00:09:16:04 Allison I was giving this some thought and I think the thing that really stands out most for me is I'm really proud of what this organization stands for and what it means to people. Because I get to be out at events and and different things in the industry, I often have the opportunity to hear directly from, people of all genders who want to talk to me about what this organization means to them, and how their interactions with this organization have been a positive and uplifting thing for them and for the people that they work with. 00:09:16:06 - 00:09:36:19 Allison I get lots of wonderful feedback, and that that makes me feel really proud of the work that we're doing. That tells me that we're doing the right work, with the right quality as well. And we do that work with hundreds of sport organizations and thousands of leaders in the system every year. It's really focused on education. 00:09:36:23 - 00:09:55:05 Allison So making sure that they they have the knowledge and the awareness, of the issues, also the best practices and solutions, what they can do to make things better for the girls and women in their communities or their sport. And then we help them to take action. So we help them see that through into real change. 00:09:55:07 - 00:10:21:10 Allison And it's really big things and it's really small things. Sometimes people just want to talk about the fact that they're having totally different conversations that they were having before they worked with us, and sometimes they say we've developed totally new programs, or we've completely changed our policies, or we've got more girls participating than ever before, thanks to these these changes that we've made. That feedback is always, always lovely. 00:10:21:10 - 00:10:39:21 Allison Who doesn't want to get positive feedback about something that they work so hard at and where, you know, that's so connected to your values? But it really tells me that we're on the right track and that what we do matters, which is why we do this. It's it's not enough to just get up and do well-intentioned work every day. 00:10:39:21 - 00:11:03:16 Allison You want to know that it's actually making the change that you want it to make. More recently, with the release of the Rally Report, which is a signature research paper that we put out, every two years, once again, I saw that we were the catalyst for a big national conversation about girls and sport and the importance of it, and what we can do to continue to push this forward. 00:11:03:18 - 00:11:29:19 Allison And what's really exciting is that there's a new element to the conversation now, which is professional sports. And what impact that is going to have on what's happening right at the grassroots. So I'm very optimistic about this organization, certainly. But but the women's sport movement and what it's going to represent for business and for society. 00:11:29:21 - 00:11:39:22 Alison So building on the recently released Rally Report, you talked about the professional sports and how that's relatively new for sure to our country. Were there 00:11:41:05 - 00:11:46:08 Alison other dramatic changes or things that had surprised you from the previous report two years ago? 00:11:46:10 - 00:12:13:21 Allison One of the things that we're most excited to see is what looks like an increase in girls regularly participating in sport and physical activity. Those are hard numbers to move, if I'm being honest. I mean, this is a big country. It's really complex. There's so many variables that can enable or limit girls in their participation individually and then en masse. 00:12:13:23 - 00:12:46:22 Allison And so to see that number shift was thrilling, frankly, because it's a wonderful indicator that, you know, the government investment and the investment by our sport organizations, the leaders of all kinds, all across this country, by parents, by media, by brands. Like everybody is starting to pull in the same direction. And it seems to be working. So what we are really committed to, and we're inviting others to join in with us, is let's make this a trend, right? 00:12:46:22 - 00:13:07:10 Allison Anybody who works with data knows that there can be a blip, right? And it can go up. But unless we continue to bring attention, unless we continue to push it to that tipping point, there's always a chance that that we could see a reversal or a decline. So we want to see this as a trend really moving as ever upwards. 00:13:07:12 - 00:13:28:12 Allison The good news also is that the gap between girls and boys is or is closing in that respect. But as I am, I'm saying these days, you know, 68% of boys playing is shouldn't be the ceiling. Like that's not the goal. That's too low too. So we want to work to 100% of girls participating in quality sport regularly. 00:13:28:14 - 00:13:36:09 Allison That I think will be a total game changer for our society. And that is the sort of change that I want to be part of. 00:13:36:11 - 00:13:49:19 Alison Absolutely. And you made my month by sharing that stat, the fact that we actually have positive progress and I fully support what can we do to make it a trend, so on a personal level, honestly, anything I can do to support, sign me up. 00:13:49:21 - 00:14:14:13 Allison That sounds good. It really is. Oh, this this is going to be super cliche, but it is totally a team sport because it is so big. It is so complex, and I know that that can really intimidate people. I know that that can make it seem, maybe hopeless at times. But we talk to people who are facility managers, 00:14:14:13 - 00:14:38:17 Allison we talk to people who are entering in their careers. We talk to, you know, the people who are at the very top of their careers. Every one of them has a sphere of influence. And what we, I would say more than hope, what we call on everybody to do with that sphere of influence is to look around and see what, how can I use that to make things more equitable, to make things more welcoming and inclusive? 00:14:38:17 - 00:14:48:07 Allison Whether it's for one girl, could be a relative, or many girls, it's all part of creating the change. 00:14:48:09 - 00:15:08:01 Alison Absolutely. Now, we've talked a bit about, while it's certainly about sport, it is about so much more. And you've shared some of that broader impact. But I'd love you to go into a bit more detail on the broader impact and crucial role that girls and women in sport can benefit from. 00:15:08:03 - 00:15:27:07 Allison You know, everyone benefits from, I'm going to I'm going to put the qualifier that it's got to be quality and inclusive sport, safe sport, everyone can benefit from that. We know that. Absolutely. This isn't just a conversation about girls in that respect. But I, I mentioned the fact that, you know, there's there's a lot at stake for girls and women. 00:15:27:09 - 00:15:57:17 Allison We've made progress, no doubt, in our society when it comes to gender equality. But, we know that there are significant gaps or significant distance yet to close when it comes to women in politics, women on corporate boards or in the C-suites. When it comes to, things like gender- based violence, you know, women are still up against many, many, many barriers in our society. 00:15:57:17 - 00:16:40:17 Allison Pay equity would be another one. And, you know, as we see so clearly, the progress that we've achieved can also be undone, right? It's not it's not linear and it's never assured. And so there is a lot at stake for women and girls always in our society. And sport is just such a powerful tool, I would say, on an individual and a collective basis for really making, making progress really closing those gaps. On an individual basis, 00:16:40:17 - 00:17:06:06 Allison as, as I mentioned, you know, it helps to make the individual stronger, right? We know that girls who play sport, have stronger mental health, which I know is a concern for so many right now. We know that it makes them physically healthy in myriad ways that benefit them, not just right now while they're young, but serve them well throughout the lifespan. 00:17:06:07 - 00:17:36:07 Allison But then it's also that platform for leadership, for them to develop and practice those skills in a supported way that serve them well at school. It's connected to educational attainment. This serves them well in their careers. It's connected to higher wages. And of course, you know, we all love the statistics. The statistic of 94% of C-suite execs, have sport in their background and cite sport as an important influence and support for them. 00:17:36:09 - 00:18:01:10 Allison So on an individual basis, it's looking pretty good. But then collectively, when you think about all of these girls entering into adulthood with all of this scaffolding, we can create such stronger families, stronger communities, you know, have them achieve and contribute in ways that, you know, to this point, we haven't been able to or haven't been invited to over the years. 00:18:01:10 - 00:18:26:14 Allison So, but then it also challenges a lot of gender norms. You can't watch a rugby game and then think that women can't be firefighters. So there's still all these limiters on women's potential. And sport really helps to break those sorts of things down. So it's it's about sport. It's about it's about people playing. It's about people having fun. 00:18:26:16 - 00:18:34:00 Allison But it's also about so much more than that. And that,that's my why and that's the organization's why. 00:18:34:01 - 00:18:50:09 Alison That's amazing. And you you mentioned earlier you have people that are sharing their personal stories and reaching out to you on a regular basis. And that's and part of the incredibly fulfilling is the leader of the organization to hear, do you have a favourite story or someone that reached out recently to share their personal anecdote? 00:18:50:11 - 00:19:21:12 Allison You know, the one one that comes to mind is, which wasn't shared with me personally, but one story that comes to mind is just the stories that we get back from, from parents, actually, because we work with, we work with the sport organizations and the sport leaders in many cases, like really behind the scenes, helping them to be the best that they can possibly be for the girls... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/35631760

EP37 - Exploring Evolving Agency Branding with Stephen Brown 03/04/2025

EP37 - Exploring Evolving Agency Branding with Stephen Brown Are you curious about how agency branding is evolving? On this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes the founder and CEO of FUSE Create, Stephen Brown. Stephen describes the rebranding process that transformed into Fuse Create, where creativity comes first. He strongly suggests that agencies prioritize building the brand they want to become and encourages professionals to build their brands alongside their agencies. Stephen also reveals how industry awards are crucial in agency branding, driving team motivation and attracting new clients. Stephen also highlights the importance of company culture in an agency's success. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:17 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:19 - 00:00:48:07 Alison In today's episode, we will explore the importance of agencies making their brands a priority and also discuss how agency branding is evolving. Similar to that old proverb that the cobbler's children have no shoes, agencies are often so focused on building their clients' brands that they don't take the time or invest the resources required to build their own. And just as it is for clients, this lack of focus on investment can be highly detrimental. 00:00:48:08 - 00:01:15:19 Alison It's also an amazing opportunity for the agencies that do consistently make their agency brand a focus. Joining me today isStephen Brown, an agency CEO who attributes their focus and investment on their agency brand as one of the key reasons why they have been thriving for 22 years. That's an absolutely remarkable accomplishment in a highly competitive environment. After a successful career with large multinational agencies, Stephen Brown founded FUSE Create in 2003. 00:01:15:21 - 00:01:44:05 Alison Tenacity, vision, commitment and passion for the business have been the driving force behind Stephen's marketing and advertising career. They're also clearly key to why he's thriving as an entrepreneur. With his extensive experience in brand, direct, interactive, database, promotional and exponential marketing, Stephen has the learning needed to create, strengthen and grow brands across a wide range of categories. Throughout our discussion, Stephen will share his experience on the role 00:01:44:11 - 00:02:05:09 Alison agency, brand and culture have played in building his business, including what's worked well and some lessons that were learned the hard way. We're also going to talk about how agency branding is evolving and how it can be different for independents, multinationals and large agencies. The agency world, like every aspect of the marketing profession, is evolving quickly, and we're clearly at a pivotal time 00:02:05:13 - 00:02:10:01 Alison with the latest merger announcement. So this is a very timely topic. Welcome, Stephen. 00:02:10:03 - 00:02:14:10 Stephen Thank you very much. I appreciate, appreciate the opportunity to join you today. 00:02:14:12 - 00:02:22:15 Alison Stephen, I'd like to start by hearing what led to you making your agency brand a priority when so many of your peers fall victim to the cobbler's children problem? 00:02:22:20 - 00:02:43:22 Stephen Truthfully, it's been an amazing 22-year ride. This building, an agency from the ground up with my partners and my team. We did not always have the right view towards branding, especially, you know, if you think about any person who starts a business, your fixation to be at the beginning, this is natural, keep the client happy. Keep the client really is the goal. 00:02:44:04 - 00:03:02:16 Stephen And so if I look in the early years of the business, we didn't have a strong enough grasp on what we really need to do from a branding perspective. So I attribute it to a couple things. One is perspective. When you start a business, you learn as you go. No one teaches you how to do these things. So I did see, I had a chance to see some things that worked and some things that didn't work. 00:03:02:18 - 00:03:21:05 Stephen But I'd also say the agency world has dramatically changed, and much of it for the better. It's a great industry, but I don't know if we, I don't know, I don't remember as a youth in this business, the agency's brand, the name was important, but the actual amount of marketing we did, I don't remember it ever being to the level that 00:03:21:07 - 00:03:47:07 Stephen I feel we need to do now. So it is partly, you know, partly tenure and partly just the changing landscape which has made FUSE Create, really reinvent itself, but also reinvent how we brand ourselves. In the, I can give you a bit of the journey that we've been on. I think the big mental shift is, is to separate your business and look at it like a client and give it the time and the resources that you do 00:03:47:08 - 00:04:08:07 Stephen a client. Your cobbler shoe thing is absolutely true. When you're spending so much of your day looking at your client's business and building their websites and building their brands, building their campaigns, you're forgetting your own. So the only way to change that is we had to, like, remove ourselves almost from our own brand and look at our brand and do a deep dive on what's working, what's not. 00:04:08:09 - 00:04:26:19 Stephen And so in 22 years, you know, this really started about seven years ago. And that was just like a client. We started with, you know, the strategic, the strategic planning phase, which was the deep dive on our business, and the deep dive on our business seven years ago is, we were in trouble. We had some problems with the business. 00:04:26:21 - 00:04:54:16 Stephen We were a good, safe agency, and good and safe is not the space you want, in the competitive Canadian market in advertising and hyper competitiveness of Toronto. So we had to do that very cold, hard look at ourselves and say, okay, we've got some definite strengths, some good things, but we need to change dramatically. And so first step was build the brand house. 00:04:54:16 - 00:05:12:03 Stephen So just like we would do for clients. And not build the brand out of who we were then, but build the brand house of who we want to become. And that in doing that and building that brand house of what you, what we wanted to become really then illustrated where the gaps were. And the gaps for us was our brand. 00:05:12:04 - 00:05:40:19 Stephen What did we stand for? And what we did not stand for is a strong enough creative contender in this business. So that started a whole journey. I won't go through the whole journey. We talk about how that affects the brand, but the biggest, the biggest thing was, is a reshuffle of the whole business to being creative first, and being much more creative and how that positioning comes to life, both from internally but then externally to the world. 00:05:40:21 - 00:06:04:17 Stephen So it started with some structural changes as far as we brought in Steve Miller or ECD, and he was amazing at coming in and, you know, really drawing the line in the sand. So here's a, here's a strategy. But now we take the strategy and make it happen. You know, first week in front of the whole company, the line was drawn clearly on a presentation, which is, we are a creative first agency starting today. 00:06:04:19 - 00:06:29:15 Stephen And that, won't go into the shock and awe, the shock and awe, needed it, we needed it. But a third of the company just were like, "Yes. Finally." A third of the company was "I've heard big declarations before. I'm gonna hold back on my belief on this," and a third of the group was, "No, we're not, we're, this agency or that agency." But part of branding is have your conviction and stick with your story and stick with your plan. 00:06:29:15 - 00:06:49:05 Stephen And so we stuck with the plan. And from there, Steve and the team that we built really started to rebuild the agency to the brand we wanted to be. Now, how that comes across is how we got to there and how we've gotten to where we are today. And it's been a lot of advancement is really there are some structural things behind that. 00:06:49:05 - 00:07:18:20 Stephen So first and foremost, the name, we used to be called Fuse Marketing Group. There is no creative in the word Fuze, in the words Fuze Marketing Group, and also redirected to what we were in our origin. But that's not the company we're trying to be today. So Steve and Team really just rehauled the brand. Even like, Fuse was great, but FUSE Create, put it, declare it right in the name, and then from logo design to all, it really comes down to positioning about how we are setting ourselves up. 00:07:19:00 - 00:07:40:11 Stephen And this all came across in our brand book. Our mantra internally is turn heads. It's, it's been working incredibly, really to just make sure, are we when we're looking at our client work, when we're when we're looking at our own work, are we able to make the consumer or the target of any sort turn their head and notice what we are communicating. And, you know, just pride behind that, 00:07:40:11 - 00:07:58:19 Stephen a lot of energy behind that, the right type of, conviction we needed to, to do a significant change to the business. But then out of that. So, so now we have the brand, the name change. We now have this real sort of call to action - turn heads. But now we have to get this to the market. 00:07:59:00 - 00:08:29:09 Stephen And if I look at what we did there, I mean it's structural, and it was structural how you structure the business, but also how we then would build it out. And so the structural one was, for years I would do the marketing and PR and my business partner, Garo would do the marketing, the PR. But Steve took it, owned it, but also we put a full time body, an amazing woman named Vanessa behind him to make sure that we had 100% dedicated resource to the brand of FUSE 00:08:29:09 - 00:08:49:23 Stephen Create. And so if you look at a really simplified version of how this came together is sort of four pillars that we were working on all the time for our brand. So one would be, you know, buzz, PR awards, things that will actually get the industry and clients and people like that to notice us, to turn heads and see FUSE Create differently. 00:08:50:01 - 00:09:13:00 Stephen Another one was really around knowledge-sharing. So how are we creating whitepapers or discussion documents or, we have these client engagement sessions called FUSE field trips. But how are we sharing the knowledge that we have of the industry? That's another pillar. People and culture. None of this is built, on its own. It's amazing to the people who build this, 00:09:13:00 - 00:09:33:12 Stephen so share our team, let our team be out in front and let them be the face of FUSE Create, not 1 or 2 people, but multiple people. And then, well, it's not really a strategy, but it's more of a tactic, making sure we're always on. So not just when you have a campaign or not when you're just launching a new thing or a new hire, but constantly be creating content. 00:09:33:12 - 00:09:52:10 Stephen And one of those three pillars I just mentioned that keeps us engaged, keeps our name out there, keeps our SEO scores high, all the various things that we need to be doing to make sure that we're building our brand. All of this was under the goal, it's not about trying to get a direct correlation between if I spend this, I'll get this, 00:09:52:10 - 00:10:10:21 Stephen it's to make sure we're getting the calls. That we're getting the calls from our current clients who are happy with the work, but they're also proud of what they're seeing about us. It's alsothat, very critically, it's that we're getting calls from brands that maybe wouldn't have called us before. And thirdly, it's we're getting calls from talent who wants to work a FUSE Create. 00:10:10:23 - 00:10:20:23 Stephen And so I can summarize it in a minute or the few minutes that took. The reality is that's a probably six year journey that we've been on to get us here. And it's been an amazing journey. 00:10:21:00 - 00:10:48:19 Alison So I love your candour. As a founder of the organization, seven years ago, when business was soft and struggling and you had to look internally at what was working, and what wasn't, how hard was it as a founder to see what wasn't working about your baby? And how did you sort of manage that internalization of, this isn't what I'd hoped it would be at this stage in its career, while continuing to motivate the team? 00:10:48:21 - 00:11:06:04 Stephen You know, when you look at the hindsight, maybe I don't think it was that hard. I'm sure it was pretty hard. Actually, you know, it was tough. And part of that toughness was the evolution of the business over those years. And, you know, we were much more of a digital, you below the line agency in our origin, and the line has all been blown up. 00:11:06:04 - 00:11:25:15 Stephen So part of it, part of it was just the evolution. I think part of it was also, the evolution of the founders, and myself being half of the founders. At the time there was three of us. You know, accepting that the business is changing and you need people on your team that are stronger or better or more diverse in what they do. 00:11:25:17 - 00:11:44:21 Stephen And so when you start the business, it's kind of like the founder's syndrome sometimes is, it all has to rest on my shoulders. And it was part of partly breaking through that, which actually I think I found quite easy because all of a sudden I realized, it's expensive, but hire, build a team that's incredible talented. And it's a lot more fun. 00:11:44:23 - 00:12:02:07 Stephen And also allows you to do a lot more, but it was a clear reckoning that we had to have. And the, I can also say one other thing. I have had over my career, really good clients and people who you become close with and friends with, and they will tell you, well some will tell you what you need to hear. 00:12:02:09 - 00:12:18:03 Stephen And I had one client give me very direct input that I needed to hear about the business, along the lines our creative product. Because sometimes you see it, but you don't really want to admit it. And sometimes you need to be literally slapped across the face, but you need some type of punch to hear it. And I heard it. 00:12:18:05 - 00:12:36:12 Alison That was a phenomenal gift that she gave you. And good for you for being open and self-aware enough to actually take the advice and action it. You're managing through massive change. And you highlight that there was a third of your team who said, "Thank God, at long last, let's go," a third that were "Yeah, I've heard this big rallying cry before and it didn't manifest in any real change." 00:12:36:12 - 00:12:45:06 Alison And then a third that were saying, "No, we don't want to stand for that." So how did you motivate the skeptics and then the people that absolutely saw a different future for FUSE? 00:12:45:08 - 00:13:07:02 Stephen We focused on the group who was most excited and leaned a little into some who were skeptics. And whether we did it or they did it, removed the third that were thinking, we want to be, they wanted to be a different company. I can't turn you to, I can't tell you to go along. If you don't think this is the journey you want to be on, then you're not going to want to be on the journey. 00:13:07:05 - 00:13:37:05 Stephen And that's fine. And if we fast forward that one third, who was, no our something else is not here, the rest got motivated pretty fast because we kept to the story. We showed the progress of changing the brand. Like we announced this before we had even started any of the brand rebranding stuff, but we kept coming back to, listen, we're amazing at storytelling in business, so we have to also bring that storytelling to our town halls and into our internal one-on-ones, and into our communications. 00:13:37:05 - 00:13:55:05 Stephen So this is a journey we're on. And then they started to see proof points. They started to see the work get better. Then they started to see this big unveiling of a new brand. By the way, we did that six weeks into a pandemic. We said we just keep going, and it actually gave us something to work on because we were a little late during that pandemic for the first year. 00:13:55:07 - 00:14:21:17 Stephen But you start to see quickly that, oh, I say you, the team started to see quickly we meant it. And that's the authenticity, if a brand is going to be successful it has to be authentic. And then they started to see the the rewards of it. So, you know, if I look at, if I look at, you know, key indicators of things I have seen, I, I have never seen FUSE Create, with such strong client retention numbers, staff retention numbers. 00:14:21:19 - 00:14:33:22 Stephen And then there's growth, which we can talk about at some point. But, so the proof doesn't happen in year one, but you can at least give them indications that we're working towards it. 00:14:33:22 - 00:14:50:14 Alison Now, it's a great example of how brand building is both powerful for growing the business, but also very important for both talent recruitment and talent retention. So I'd love you to share a little bit more about, with the evolution of FUSE Create how that's contributed to both retention and talent recruitment. 00:14:50:14 - 00:15:10:11 Stephen FUSE has always been a good place to work. Nice people, a good environment, good vibe. What we needed to really do more though, was demonstrate how it's going to improve your career. Like you're going to be able to build something you're proud of here. At the same time, no one who's on the team ever wanted to remove the fun side. 00:15:10:13 - 00:15:27:05 Stephen We get to create things. We start with a blank slate and come up with these amazing things. It's it's one of the most creative, vibrant businesses in the world and I love it. So it should be fun. We should be able to laugh, we should be able to do all these things. But it's also hard work. And so Steve, I don't think he borrowed the word from someone else, 00:15:27:05 - 00:15:42:16 Stephen it's not actually a word, but we use the term possibilitarian. And that's, you know, someone who sees the possibility. Anyway, but we use it all the time, and it really is someone who - yeah, I'm motivated. I want to do this, and I can find a way instead of looking at all the barriers, because there's a million barriers 00:15:42:16 - 00:16:07:09 Stephen every time we do anything, how do we find theway? And that really came into, well, if you lead by example, if they see us seeing the possibility and the opportunity, then they, you get motivated and you see it also. It's all focused on turning heads. So we do have a purpose that gives people, you know, clarity is, we are here to create great things for our team. 00:16:07:11 - 00:16:34:09 Stephen So we often use, with our, when we're presenting to our clients, but we use it with our own team is, and it might sound simple, but it is meant to be simple, is, you know, do do great work, with great people, for great people. So the shift in that mentality was, if you'd looked at my early years of my career at the agency, I would have been fixated on do great work for clients, like, just, or just make clients happy. 00:16:34:11 - 00:16:51:22 Stephen And the truth is, if you reverse it, and this is where I thank the team so much for opening my eyes on this, so do great work, with great people. You cannot get great work by hammering or yelling or whatever. Like you have to motivate the team to be, you want to excite the team, you want to support the team to, 00:16:51:23 - 00:17:10:07 Stephen That's the culture that will deliver great work. And finally for great people, as clients. And the... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/35516180

EP36 - How the CMA is Futureproofing Marketing with Alan Depencier 02/26/2025

EP36 - How the CMA is Futureproofing Marketing with Alan Depencier Curious how the CMA is advancing and futureproofing the marketing profession? In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Alan Depencier, Chief Marketing Officer, Personal & Commercial Banking and Insurance at RBC and CMA Board Chair. Alan discusses why he got involved with the CMA, joining the Board, advancing the profession, the accomplishments he's most proud of as CMA Board Chair, the latest membership benefits, and his advice for building a career you can be proud of. Tune in to gain insights from one of Canada's top marketing leaders. 00:00:01:18 - 00:00:23:07 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:09 - 00:00:45:10 Alison After a very busy and rewarding January, the macro environment and U.S. tariffs are certainly creating a more challenging business environment. There's no doubt that we have a bit of a rollercoaster ride ahead. The reality we all need to keep in mind is that the U.S. absolutely needs Canada. We are the top export market for 36 U.S. states and 2.5 billion in trade crosses between our countries every single day. 00:00:45:12 - 00:01:02:23 Alison Canadians need to stand up for ourselves. Every dollar we spend is a vote. It's a vote for the kind of economy we want and the future that we believe in. On a happier note, I'm very pleased to welcome Alan Depencier, the chair of CMA's Board of Directors, to our podcast today. We're going to discuss all that we have planned for the CMA. 00:01:03:01 - 00:01:38:01 Alison And Alan's also going to share a bit about his journey and why he's taken such an active role volunteering for our association and the marketing profession. Alan was elected to the CMA board in 2019 and has contributed significantly as a member of CMA's Member Engagement and Human Resources committees. He's also chaired the Finance and Audit Committee, and served as the Board Vice Chair before his appointment to Board Chair last May. Alan also played a pivotal role in the creation of the CMA NXT program, which helps university and college students bridge the gap between post-secondary education and starting their professional life in marketing. 00:01:38:03 - 00:01:58:13 Alison In addition to his outstanding contributions to the CMA, Alan has a very inspiring career in marketing. He's held senior marketing roles at RBC for 20 years, including the past seven serving as Chief Marketing Officer for Personal and Commercial Banking and Insurance. Prior to joining RBC, he managed consumer packaged goods brands and spearheaded the growth of a startup venture. 00:01:58:15 - 00:02:00:10 Alison Welcome, Alan. It's great to see you. 00:02:00:12 - 00:02:03:05 Alan Hi Alison, thanks for having me join your podcast today. 00:02:03:07 - 00:02:11:05 Alison I'd love to kick things off by having you share a bit about what attracted you to get involved with the CMA years ago, and more recently join the CMA Board. 00:02:11:07 - 00:02:33:12 Alan That's such a great question. Well, years ago I was asked to help organize the first Client Experience Conference for the CMA, and that really was my first real exposure to the CMA. You know, I really enjoyed the opportunity because I had an opportunity to bring together industry leaders to shape conversations around client experience. And it's such an important part of the marketing mix back then, and even so today. 00:02:33:14 - 00:02:52:21 Alan So over the years, I stayed involved because the CMA plays such a critical role in driving marketing excellence in Canada. More recently, I joined the Board because it felt like the natural next step. It's a chance to give back. It's an opportunity to help shape the future of the industry and support the next generation of marketers. But beyond that, it actually makes me a better marketer in my day job. 00:02:52:23 - 00:03:03:01 Alan The networking, the insights, the industry conversations helps me continue to grow and try to stay ahead of trends. It's just been such an incredible journey over the last few years as I've got more and more involved. 00:03:03:03 - 00:03:12:22 Alison Well Alan, I owe a huge thank you to whoever got you involved in the initial events you've given, contributed significantly to the CMA and also our profession, so thank you for that. 00:03:13:00 - 00:03:13:21 Alan You're welcome. 00:03:13:23 - 00:03:17:07 Alison I'd love you to share a bit about how the board and CMA staff work together. 00:03:17:09 - 00:03:33:07 Alan Absolutely. You know, the first thing I'd say is the CMA has a relatively small management team. So as a Board, we kind of get to wear two hats. There's the governance side, which is the traditional role of a Board, which helps guide strategy and oversight. But we also have the opportunity to lean in and support management when they need help. 00:03:33:07 - 00:03:49:00 Alan And especially as a marketer, we love doing that. And I think sometimes we lean in a little too much. So I think, Alison, you keep us in check on that one. So whether it's sharing a different perspective or brainstorming solutions, I think the Board can really help out management as needed. There's a real sense of collaboration on this Board with management. 00:03:49:05 - 00:04:07:14 Alan I'm really fortunate to sit on a Board that has such a broad set of expertise and experience, but more importantly, has a passion for the industry and helping to shape its future. One challenge, though, as I mentioned, is that we have a number of marketers on the Board, so we naturally have lots of ideas. But with a lean team, prioritization is key. 00:04:07:15 - 00:04:17:03 Alan We have to focus on what's going to have the most impact for the industry and its members. It's a dynamic and rewarding experience, I know as I talk to the Board in my own personal experience. 00:04:17:05 - 00:04:44:14 Alison I can absolutely attest to the incredible passion, the amazing ideas that come from our shared discussion with the Boards. And the good news is, when maybe getting a little too deep, you're absolutely open to that, "Okay guys, let's prioritize and pull back a little bit." So it's a great collaboration and we have really good healthy debate. And I know that everyone around that boardroom table and everyone on my team is fully committed to doing what's in the best interest of future-proofing our profession. 00:04:44:16 - 00:04:48:14 Alan That's great. Well, you keep us in check as needed and pull us in more if you need more. 00:04:48:16 - 00:04:54:19 Alison So Alan, from the Board's perspective, how has the CMA helped to advance the marketing profession in 2024? 00:04:54:21 - 00:05:14:09 Alan You know, the CMA is really the only place where the full marketing ecosystem comes together, and that really leads to healthy, robust debate, and these exciting discussions around important topics and issues facing our profession. One of the great ways that happens is through events. You know, we have lots of events that are really focused on priority topics that our members care about most. 00:05:14:14 - 00:05:31:14 Alan And those can come to life in virtual events or they come in in-person events. Many of them are free or as part of your corporate membership, so I highly encourage you to take advantage of those. We also launched our inaugural CMA Marketing Week back in 2024. It was a huge success and one that we're going to build upon in 2025. 00:05:31:16 - 00:05:54:01 Alan And when I say "we", really I'm looking your way, Alison, because it's your team that does all the great work. Another incredible part of that is the CMA community continues to grow. We had over 56 new organizations join us in 2024: from Pizza Pizza; Cineplex Media; General Electric; HubSpot; Special Olympics; Doctor Oetker; and Peloton, just to mention a few of the new members. 00:05:54:03 - 00:06:17:22 Alan And of course, we ended 2024 with the always amazing CMA Awards Show. We had the highest number of award entries this year, ever, and it was great celebrating the incredible creativity of our profession along over a thousand marketers and agencies at the gala. Another way we're advancing the profession is really how we future-proof the profession through a number of vehicles. In our research, 00:06:18:06 - 00:06:40:03 Alan we see that members and marketers rated the future of marketing as the thought leadership topic, closely followed by emerging trends and how technology advancements are impacting marketing. The CMA councils and committees are just an incredible source for thought leadership to stay ahead of where the profession is going across a wide range of topics, whether that's client experience, creativity, brand, insights, just to name a few. 00:06:40:05 - 00:07:02:20 Alan We have over 300 senior members in our councils and committees contributing to important discussions debate across the future profession. What other association could bring together 300 senior marketers and experts on these topics? And one really close to RBC's heart is helping to nurture the next generation of marketing talent with the CMA NXT. It's just another way we're future-proofing the profession. 00:07:02:22 - 00:07:26:12 Alan This program bridges the gap between post-secondary school and a successful marketing career. As part of CMA NXT, the association hosts virtual career nights and most recently had over 600 students from across Canada on the last virtual event. And of course, this podcast is just another way the CMA is helping to future-proof members and marketers in a new, exciting vehicle like podcasts. 00:07:26:14 - 00:07:48:23 Alan Another way we're advancing is really around professional development. Gen AI is certainly a hot topic in 2024, and CMA helps members and marketers navigate this important area and just, in a number of ways. First one is we create an on-demand generative AI certificate course to complement our other generative AI training sessions. It's proven very popular. The CMA has an AI committee creating thought leadership and guidance for members. 00:07:49:01 - 00:08:13:17 Alan Another thing we've been doing is the association's Evolve the Charter Marketer program by making it much more on-demand so marketers can learn on their schedule and at their pace. The CMA introduced new advanced standing pathways for the CM program. One of the pathways provides advanced standings for recognized folks with formal education or substantial marketing experience. The new career experience path is for marketers with eight years of progressive experience and diverse marketing experience. 00:08:13:19 - 00:08:37:10 Alan And then on the education side, if you're a graduate with a marketing degree or diploma from an accredited Canadian university or college, people who qualify for these new pathways have a streamlined course requirement to obtain their CM designation. And of course, DEI continues to be a top priority for the CMA. We completed our fourth annual study back in 2024, and it showed the marketing profession is making progress, but we still have a long way to go. 00:08:37:12 - 00:09:06:03 Alan One exciting program within this space is the Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, otherwise known as DMSC. It's a really important new initiative the CMA launched in 2024 that addresses the needs of both diversity and up-skilling the marketing profession. The DMSC program is in partnership with Palette Skills. It is funded by the Government of Canada. The CMA, along with our training partners Growclass and Jelly Academy, have up-skilled over 1200 Canadian marketers and helped the majority secure their next job. 00:09:06:05 - 00:09:25:15 Alan 80% of the graduates are from underrepresented groups. This program has created a very strong talent base of up-skilled marketers, ranging from junior right through to the VP levels. So if you're looking for some talent and have a couple of roles that you want to fill, it's a terrific resource. Employers who hire graduates can also benefit from a $5,000 government grant. 00:09:25:17 - 00:09:42:22 Alan Just a huge kudos, Alison, because I know you did a lot of work bringing that program to market in partnership with Palette Skills and the government and our other partners. And finally, the Voice in Marketing in Canada is all the advocacy work we do on behalf of he profession. It's such an incredible source of pride. The advocacy efforts cover a broad range of topics. 00:09:43:00 - 00:10:03:08 Alan In the last few months, the CMA has spoken out against the proposed TikTok ban; how the digital services tax is negatively impacting business; and why marketing should be an eligible field of study for post-graduate work permits. And these are just three recent examples. The CMA has met with all political parties recently. We hosted the Canada's Privacy Commissioner for a fireside chat at our fall event. 00:10:03:09 - 00:10:16:08 Alan We've written op-eds and have worked closely with other business associations and key leaders on these important topics. So that's just a little bit of how we're advancing the profession, but I'm sure we could talk the entire podcast on all these things, Alison. But I'll cut it short there. 00:10:16:10 - 00:10:34:21 Alison Well, Alan, I love the fact that you say "we" because you are absolutely a crucial part of this, as are our Board and the amount of volunteers that we have from across our membership that are actively raising their hand and participating, we could not do a fraction of what we accomplished last year or in the coming year without that level of volunteers. 00:10:34:23 - 00:10:38:05 Alison So it is absolutely "we', and not just the CMA's team. 00:10:38:07 - 00:10:39:18 Alan Well thank you. 00:10:39:19 - 00:10:47:20 Alison Now it's a long list, so this next question might be a little tricky to answer. But as Board Chair, what accomplishments of the CMA Board are you most proud of? 00:10:47:22 - 00:11:10:18 Alan Well, I promise I won't restate everything I just went through, but, it's hard to just pick one thing. But there's a couple that kind of stand out. And like any good marketer, how do you measure success? It's just not a laundry list of activities. So we we have put in some incredible, KPIs that we monitor. And I think the first one is, our Member Net Promoter score 00:11:10:18 - 00:11:33:13 Alan significantly increased this year, which is telling us we're meeting and even exceeding our member expectations. And I think secondly, we've seen strong growth in new members. Both of these are just an incredibly great sign that CMA's relevance and impact is on the, is heading in the right direction and in a great spot. That being said, both the Leadership and the Board see much more opportunity to build upon this momentum in 2025. 00:11:33:14 - 00:11:42:08 Alan So just a huge congratulations on it, these incredible achievements. And, it looks like a bright future as we look forward to 2025. 00:11:42:10 - 00:11:58:23 Alison Well, right back at you on the huge congratulations. So as you called out, we've got great momentum. None of us are going to slow down anytime soon. We really have a lot to do to continue future-proofing the profession and marketers. So what do you see as some of the key focus areas in the year ahead? 00:11:59:01 - 00:12:18:13 Alan In 2025, our focus is really building upon the momentum, as I mentioned, of these incredible 2024 accomplishments. That being said, we have some terrific new membership benefits that I'd love to just spend a couple of minutes highlighting because you spent so much time trying to bring more value to to all our members. Firstly, we're expanding and introducing new CMA councils in 2025. 00:12:18:13 - 00:12:40:04 Alan So we're bringing together members to share thought leadership on public relations, product marketing and much more. Secondly, we're expanding our national focus on in-person gatherings, including a roadshow, so our members across Canada can come together in person. I think this is just one thing we've been talking about at the Board for a while, is we'd love to have much more of a national presence with the CMA going forward. 00:12:40:05 - 00:13:03:06 Alan Thirdly, all CMA members will benefit from free access to 25 CMA events, plus members will receive substantial savings of up to 80% on other events. That includes everything except for the CMA Awards Gala. We're also launching the CMA Mentorship program, which is exclusive to and complementary for all our members. Learning is also key to future-proofing your career and ranks as a top priority for members. 00:13:03:08 - 00:13:28:19 Alan Yet finding budget for learning can be challenging. So, Alison, you and your team are introducing significant member-only discounts of 50% off our CMA training programs, certificate courses in the Chartered Marketer program. We're also creating the CMA CEO Young Marketers Advisory Board of rising stars from across the marketing ecosystem. This volunteer board will work closely with me and advise the CMA and our profession. 00:13:28:21 - 00:13:50:10 Alan And finally, we're introducing regular CMA socials for marketers in the first phases of their career to connect, have fun, and grow their networks. Which I'm super excited and I hope you'll invite us old people as well, Alison, to these fun events. And finally, knowing that the economy is still a challenge for many organizations, and to your point, the recent news on tariffs, you'll be happy to hear the CMA has been holding firm on membership rates this year 00:13:50:10 - 00:14:18:13 Alan in 2025 to help ease the pain a little bit. A number of our colleagues in the marketing profession are currently in transition and need our support. So we've also introduced a one-year individual affiliate program that gives marketers in transition access to select individual CMA benefits at a manageable cost. And in May, we're building upon the strong success of last year's inaugural CMA Marketing Week with an expanded offering and new ways for our community to come together during the 2025 CMA Marketing Week. 00:14:18:15 - 00:14:38:12 Alan The CMA is starting 2025 also in a brand new home, which we think is going to be an incredible new home for all our members to come visit us. And in case you're interested, we're at 145 Wellington Street West in Toronto. Anyways, it's going to be a super exciting year ahead and can't wait to see the progress throughout the year, Alison. 00:14:38:14 - 00:14:46:09 Alison Thanks, Alan. So another tough question. If you could only pick one or two things, what do you most looking forward to in 2025? 00:14:46:11 - 00:15:06:23 Alan Oh boy. There's so much to be excited about in 2025. I guess I'm really looking forward to building upon the foundation you and your Leadership team have created. And I think what's most exciting is the agility that the CMA has kind of established over the last year in terms of really evolving and responding to the, the rapidly changing dynamics in the marketing industry. 00:15:08:03 - 00:15:25:08 Alan So I think that's the piece I most look forward to as who knows what 2025 is gonna look like. You start with the best plan, but things pop up. Last year was like the TikTok ban or you know, we've got tariffs coming out now. I just think it's super exciting to see our the organization really respond to this 00:15:25:08 - 00:15:34:07 Alan on the advocacy side, as well as bringing out new tools and resources to help our members deal with, you know, the dynamic world of marketing and the world we live in today. 00:15:34:09 - 00:15:47:13 Alison Now, when you have an absolutely enviable career, and I know our listeners would love to learn from your wealth of experience. So before I let... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/35427440

EP35 - Exploring Accenture's 2025 Life Trends with Brent Chaters 02/11/2025

EP35 - Exploring Accenture's 2025 Life Trends with Brent Chaters Are you curious about the next trend? Alison Simpson, CEO of The CMA, explores Accenture's Life Trends 2025 report with Brent Chaters, Managing Director of Marketing Transformation at Accenture. Together, they explore trends like hesitation, the dignity of work, AI tools, the impatience economy, and how these trends apply to the Canadian market. ReadAccenture's 2025 Life Trends report here: 00:00:01:16 - 00:00:24:09 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:24:11 - 00:00:43:14 Alison I'm thrilled to have Brent Chaters joining me for today's episode. Brent's the managing Director of Marketing Transformation at Accenture, a global leader in consulting and technology services. In this role, he works with some of the world's top brands to help them innovate and adapt to the ever-shifting marketing landscape. Brent's also on our CMA board and chairs our Finance and Audit Committee. 00:00:43:16 - 00:01:14:13 Alison Brent brings a wealth of experience and insights to this conversation. It's also very timely since Accenture just released their latest Life Trends 2025 report. The annual report offers a window into people's evolving behaviours and attitudes towards a world around them, covering major shifts in business, technology, as well as society. The report this year is focusing on five emerging trends, and the trends explore the cost of hesitations as people are seeking out a healthier, more balanced relationship with technology, both for themselves and the next generation. 00:01:14:15 - 00:01:31:10 Alison The report dives deep into these trends and what they mean for businesses who are trying to navigate an increasingly complex landscape. We'll be unpacking the key trends from the report and discussing how they vary in the Canadian market, as well as getting Brent's take on how businesses can both adapt and thrive. Welcome, Brent. It's great to have you here. 00:01:31:12 - 00:01:33:11 Brent Thanks, Alison. Excited to be here. 00:01:33:13 - 00:01:45:00 Alison So, Brent, I'd love you to tell us the origin story for Accenture's Life Trends report and share some of the unique insights that it provides to help marketers and businesses understand how consumers behaviours and expectations are changing. 00:01:45:02 - 00:02:10:18 Brent So the the Trends have been something that we've run for well over a decade. Effectively, what we look at is, what are the things that are happening today, like immediately right now that are impacting societal norms, and then kind of how that is extracted out into both customer experience, customer behaviour, customer activation, and, you know, effectively it's the things that are going to drive the threads of, you know, where we are going to go on a global societal level. 00:02:10:20 - 00:02:29:21 Brent They run across 22 different markets. We talk to about 24 to 25,000 people every year. It allows us to look at both the global macro trend. And then I can also look down into like what's happening by country. That's kind of how does Canada differ versus what, you know, we see happening at a, at a global level or across other countries as a whole. 00:02:29:23 - 00:02:54:01 Alison That's a massive report. And to your point, I'm excited to dig into where Canada is aligned with the other 25 global markets and where we're different. And in reading the report, I really found that the trends collectively point to a significant rebalancing of digital and physical experiences. And linked with that, a really growing emphasis on trust and authenticity and the need for more human-centred approaches in both business and technology. 00:02:54:03 - 00:03:05:08 Alison So that's going to present some great opportunities, but also some challenges for brands in figuring out how do we adapt and innovate and respond to how consumers are changing their behaviours and expectations. 00:03:05:10 - 00:03:22:22 Brent That one is actually interesting, because if you look at each of the trends through the last 3 or 4 years, we've seen a heavier shift, more towards kind of like these physical experiences. If you kind of go back to like the big things that happened in the last 4 to 5 years - Covid, probably being the biggest trigger that drove that when everybody kind of got locked down. 00:03:22:23 - 00:03:42:22 Brent It did force like a reconnection to like your physical spaces and rethinking what physical versus digital meant to people. But, you know, I'd say this year you're kind of, I think you're kind of starting to see a lot of that all culminate together in terms of what we've seen kind of happening. I call it the more smaller areas, like there used to be like 1 or 2 trends. 00:03:43:00 - 00:03:51:11 Brent This year, it almost threads through all five trends of like this drive for like a more physical engagement and what that means to people at a more humanistic level. 00:03:51:13 - 00:04:09:13 Alison So I'd love to start out with the cost of hesitation, that your report is certainly showing that online experiences degrading and hesitation is becoming almost a reflex as people are getting so bombarded with content and really can't trust what they see. So what's your take on how this trend is affecting businesses? 00:04:09:15 - 00:04:34:14 Brent This trend itself is really about authenticity. I think a lot of it's being driven by, I don't want to say Gen AI, but like how accessible Gen AI has become. You know, for $20 a month, you can subscribe to a Gen AI tool or multiple sets of tools. You can create your Gen AI stack for a very nominal fee. And then with that you can produce, you know, an absurd amount of content very rapidly that feels very authentic. 00:04:34:16 - 00:05:04:17 Brent And then what this is driving is, it's creating questions of people saying, you know, is this a scam? I see this, see this t shirt? I see these shoes. It feels like it's meant for me. But then I go out and I start to Google and there's no website presence or there's no ratings and reviews or there's nothing else about this organization, you know, and it's, it's gotten to a point where it's really hard to distill the difference between, is it real and authentic, or is it something that just popped up overnight and it's a scam as a whole? 00:05:04:19 - 00:05:28:02 Brent You know, the other thing that we're starting to see is that big organizations are leaning into Gen AI in ways that I'll call maybe a little too lazy as well. You might have heard about things called like, Gen AI hallucination. So effectively, what that is, is, you know, your models sit there and they're, they're directionally right. But like for some reason it's come up with this like absurd sort of concept or idea. 00:05:28:02 - 00:05:45:03 Brent You know, the example of glue being used on pizza instead of pizza sauce, for example. It's, you know, it's a liquid, it's the right thing. But like, it's, you know, there's something that you would want to eat, nor should it be there. You know, and those are things, those are ones that are very easy to identify. Other times you might see something that is not as easy to identify. 00:05:45:03 - 00:06:03:17 Brent It might not be as easy to understand that it was not something that is grounded in truths or factual data points. And so with that, you know, you're starting to see larger organizations that have to be aware of, like, how they're working through that content that's also produced as well, because, you know, if you think about it, at the end of the day, it's about trust, right? 00:06:03:18 - 00:06:25:22 Brent Big brands, little brands, no matter what you're trying to do, earning trust is hard. Losing trust is easy. And so, you know, poorly executed, AI-driven experiences are going to drive to that trust being broken. And when that trust is broken, trying to rebuild it again becomes a lot more difficult. The two biggest industries where people are looking for authenticity - health and finance. 00:06:25:22 - 00:06:56:06 Brent I don't think that's a surprise to a lot of people, but people are looking for, you know, authentic experiences across health. And, you know, historically, if you look at it, the health industry, if you think about all the different vitamins and pills and whatever else that get pushed out there, this industry of both medically-prescribed and non-medically prescribed brands and you know, they're just pushing content and they're looking to get as many people to utilize that. In the health area, because people are much more aware and they're able to self-diagnose, 00:06:56:06 - 00:07:17:21 Brent and we'll talk about some of this a little bit later on too, is they're going to these digital channels first. And so they're looking for it, you know, authenticity. And is this really something that is going to be helpful for me or not. And is there misinformation is critical. And then, you know, there's a saying that you want to be able to be informed about your finances, but you don't want to divulge what your personal, you know, finances are. 00:07:17:23 - 00:07:36:12 Brent So, you know, again, people looking for authentic ways to connect with their financial advisors, with their banks, what they should do financially. There's a great concern of, do I have enough to retire? You know, this is an ongoing thing with inflation, with everything else. Are people able to save? And if so, you know, how are they doing that? 00:07:36:12 - 00:08:01:18 Brent But people looking for authentic ways to engage with brands as a whole, you know, and I think the last the last big thing too, is Canadians specifically, is where Canada differs, 59% of Canadians, almost 60% of Canadians, feel that they're getting constant advertising of some sort or another. compared to globally, it's about 48%. So Canadians are just being inundated with a lot more advertising that is targeted. 00:08:01:19 - 00:08:28:07 Brent And, you know, we're trying to distill down what is real and what is not. You know, and on the flip side of that, Canadians typically are not identifying the deep fakes as strongly. So 28% of Canadians identify deep fakes, whereas 32% globally are identifying the deep fakes. So, you know, we're kind of seeing more advertising as Canadians, but we're having a harder time to just to distill down what is authentic and what is real versus what was like AI-created or targeted. 00:08:28:09 - 00:08:46:19 Alison So in this low trust environment, what are some of the recommendations you have for businesses to maintain trust, or if they're in the unfortunate situation of having lost trust, as you called out, it's so hard to win it back. What would you recommend as potential ways to maintain that trust in this type of environment? 00:08:46:21 - 00:09:07:20 Brent Well, what we're looking for is organizations become more humanistic in their approach, rethinking about how you're using your physical experiences. You know, if you're a bank, what was the opportunity you have with a branch? You know, telcos are probably the highest in terms of digital engagement, you know, and they're constantly rated as one of the lowest for customer satisfaction in terms of like customer care. 00:09:07:22 - 00:09:35:20 Brent So, you know, finding ways to start to get reengaged from a truly human perspective becomes really relevant. The other things that are probably going to start to emerge over time is you're going to see things like associations that are going to offer authenticity to something. So, you know, this message was validated and approved through X Association. And it's, you know, genuine content that'll probably be tied back to QR codes or blockchain that sits on the back to be able to validate those things. 00:09:35:22 - 00:09:59:02 Brent But they'll be tied to an approved, trusted, you know, authority to say that something is genuine or not as well. So, you know, I think there's new technology that's going to arise outside of this. You don't have all the perfect answers today. But, you know, those are the things I think are gonna start to come out that will start to change how organizations think about how they're building content and how they kind of reinforce what is authentic or not authentic. 00:09:59:04 - 00:10:14:19 Brent You know, the last thing to think about, too, is as easy it is for you to be a good marketer, who are the bad marketers, or who are the bad actors out there as well. Like, I could very easily and quickly stand a marketing machine and put out a lot of false information about a competitor as well. Right? 00:10:14:19 - 00:10:33:10 Brent And so doing that, I can actually go out and proactively damage your brand a lot more. So, you know, I think your other question was kind of, how do you repair that brand? Yeah, I think it's, it's making sure that you're you're creating those authentic, real-time connections with people. And, you know, it becomes a lot harder of a lift than what we've we've traditionally been used to. 00:10:33:12 - 00:10:43:08 Brent That said, we used to be able to do this in the 70s and the 80s, in the 90s, before we had all this access to technology. So, you know, you almost have to look to the past to think about how you want to manage to the future. 00:10:43:10 - 00:10:46:11 Alison And how can some of the tools we have today help with that? 00:10:46:13 - 00:10:47:06 Brent Yeah. 00:10:47:08 - 00:10:54:01 Alison Not an easy question to answer, but definitely the tools that are creating the situation can also be part of how we solve for it. 00:10:54:03 - 00:11:15:01 Brent Yeah, I mean, absolutely. Every organization should be thinking about how they're utilizing the tools today. There's there's definitely advantages, and organizations need to think about how they're adopting those tools. Part of the problem, and we see this, you know, as we talk about the dignity of work a little bit later, part of the problem is organizations aren't investing in their talent. 00:11:15:01 - 00:11:40:03 Brent They're not investing in their people. And so there's kind of this disconnect that's happening right now, what's happening from a work perspective to enable your your talent to have the right skills and then being able to like, activate against that. So I think, you know, right now the biggest gap that organizations need to think about is like, how do I upskill my organization to be able to utilize the tools in the right way and, and become a little bit more proactive in the investment of that workforce? 00:11:40:05 - 00:11:55:14 Alison Let's actually jump there now because as you highlighted, the dignity of work and employee motivation levels is another key trend. And they're,they've been quite shaken by business pressures, tech advances and evolving human dynamics. So I'd love you to share more insights about this trend. 00:11:55:16 - 00:12:27:10 Brent So the dignity of work, you know, you kind of look at what's happened over the last 4 to 5 years. You kind of went from a very high talent demand. So, you know, looking for, especially digital talent, AI, data analytics type talent. And there was a huge demand for it. And then, you know, as the economy and the big macro factors around us start to change, you saw this shift towards back where organizations were controlling more of the jobs and now people have shifted more towards what's important to me - work life balance. 00:12:27:12 - 00:12:48:21 Brent But job security is number two. Whereas if you went back four years ago, there was a lot of opportunity from a job perspective. Now people are kind of thinking more about like, what's my job security? What's happened, though, is that organizations haven't shifted towards taking care of their talent. We're expecting the investment into training to decrease anywhere between 14 to 15% over the next couple years. 00:12:48:23 - 00:13:07:16 Brent We're seeing a decline in people feeling that they've got the right skills to do the jobs that they need to do, you know, and I think those are like the big, big signs out there that if organizations aren't investing into their people, it's a lot harder to go out and hire those skilled people than it is to build them up. 00:13:07:16 - 00:13:22:23 Brent And so if you're not doing that, are you going to be ready for the future? The second thing is from like, from an emotional perspective, employees are recognizing and seeing that this isn't happening. And so they're starting to feel, you know, like I'm just a cog in the machine. I, you know, you're going to replace me, especially Canadians. 00:13:22:23 - 00:13:45:21 Brent Canadians have this sense, like 13% more Canadians then globally feel that AI is going to take their jobs away. So there's this this heavy focus on, you know, as, as Canadians that, like, Gen AI is not a positive thing. Here is something that is going to take my job away. It's going to replace me. You know, there's this shift of thinking of like, I'm a creator to I'm just a manager of workflows. 00:13:45:23 - 00:14:10:00 Brent You know, people are missing being that creative, that that ability to express the pride in the work that they're doing. And so, you know, as we look at the dignity of work, you kind of have, you know, two things that are happening. There's the education, the re-skilling of talent. I also think that's a very heavy Canadian thing. Canadians as a whole are feeling that there's less, less focus on their personal growth and career opportunities compared to globally. 00:14:10:00 - 00:14:29:18 Brent So there's about a 10% gap there again. So, you know, Canadians are generally feeling less invested into. And then you also have to think about how that's driving culture as a whole. And you know, I think organizations are spending more time trying to manage when and how you're showing up, like counting badge swipes. Did you tap into today? 00:14:29:18 - 00:14:46:14 Brent Are you in the office today? Are you physically here today? The employees are feeling that we're all adults. You should trust me. And by telling me that you have to count if I'm tapping in or not, you don't trust me. My trust with you is broken. Therefore, why should I give you, you know, any any more of my time than I need to? 00:14:46:16 - 00:15:07:01 Brent Which means I want, I want better work life balance. You know, the employee workforce is kind of starting to fight back. And that's driving, that's that's driving the overall cultural behaviours as well. And then, you know, the last thing is, as people are not seeing the career advancements, they're starting to, you know, wonder like am I stagnant in what I'm doing or you know, what is what is my next career growth? 00:15:07:03 - 00:15:26:03 Brent If you're not investing, investing in me from an education perspective, if there's no opportunity for me to move forward, I'm going to start to feel frustrated and stuck. And so, you know, I think you're going to start to see a lot of employees where, you know, we're already seeing this in like cultural satisfaction surveys, where year over year it's declining. 00:15:26:08 - 00:15:50:23 Brent And now we've got to start to think about, like, how are we going to start to reengage with teams and with talent? And that all starts at leadership. Right, like this isn't something where we need to go like how do we get, you know, the individual contributors. You have to start with leadership. Because right now the perception is leadership is more focused on dollars and cents than on employee satisfaction on, you know, am I building up my team and my skills and my talent? 00:15:51:00 - 00:16:05:18 Brent I'm just focused on like, did I hit this quarter's, you know, numbers that I need to hit and you know, that that... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/35226875

EP34 - The Psychology of Persuasion in Marketing with Darren Chiu and Ben Wise 01/21/2025

EP34 - The Psychology of Persuasion in Marketing with Darren Chiu and Ben Wise On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA welcomes two influential people from Google. Darren Chiu, Account Executive and Ben Wise, Head of Programmatic Media, who also happen to be the co-founders of Captivate. Together, they discuss effective psychological tactics used in marketing campaigns, from emotional appeal and scarcity to personalization and social proof. They also discuss common mistakes, active listening, understanding your audience, building credibility and leveraging storytelling. 00:00:01:16 - 00:00:24:00 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:24:02 - 00:00:53:15 Alison Today I have two special guests joining me who are absolutely experts in the art and science of persuasion and communication. Ben Wise and Darren Chiu are the co-founders of Captivate. It's a company dedicated to helping marketers really understand and leverage the psychological principles that drive consumer behaviour and decision-making. Both Ben and Darren have spent almost 14 years at Google. Ben also serves on the board of directors for the Daily Bread Food Bank, mentors young professionals in media and tech, and advises multiple early stage startups on sales and growth. 00:00:53:17 - 00:01:15:23 Alison Darren worked for another CMA member, Microsoft, before joining Google. He has also been recognized as an emerging leader by The Peak. In this episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of the psychology of persuasion and exploring how marketers can apply these concepts to create more effective campaigns, to build stronger brands, and to communicate much more persuasively with both their external and internal audiences. 00:01:16:01 - 00:01:38:04 Alison Ben and Darren will sh-re their insights on the most powerful psychological tactics used in marketing. They'll provide great examples of campaigns that have successfully leveraged these principles and offer some very hands on, practical advice for how marketers can improve their own persuasion and communication skills. We'll also discuss how these psychological concepts are core to career development and success in the marketing profession. 00:01:38:06 - 00:01:48:14 Alison Ben and Darren have lots of great advice to share that will help marketers sell their ideas much more effectively and manage their personal brands. I'm really excited to dive in, so welcome Ben and Darren. 00:01:48:16 - 00:01:50:01 Darren Hello, Alison. 00:01:50:03 - 00:01:51:19 Ben Thank you so much for having us. 00:01:51:21 - 00:02:05:15 Alison So you both have very successful careers, very demanding, great day jobs. And you're doing this on the site. I would love you to share the origin story of Captivate and your approach to the psychology of persuasion and communication in marketing. 00:02:05:17 - 00:02:24:23 Ben So it started a few years ago, and me and Darren actually used to be on the same team. And one day Darren came to me and said, hey, Ben, can I get 15 minutes in a team meeting? There are these things I've been researching, all of that psychology that you've been using in your sales pitches with clients, that were really working, and you thought the team would, you think the team would really benefit from? 00:02:25:00 - 00:02:43:12 Ben So of course, I gave him the time and Darren walked us through a whole bunch of things. I think it was 3 or 4 really cool techniques and not just what they were, but like how to actually use them, like how to take these, you know, research concepts and put it into practice in a day-to-day environment. And coming out of that, I said like, hey Darren, I think this is really cool. 00:02:43:15 - 00:03:03:07 Ben Why don't you do something with it? Like, why don't you start a newsletter? And I think your reaction was like, great idea, but then didn't have time to do it. And then I think it was like a year after that, there was a reorg and Darren moved teams, and then because we were no longer on the same team, I figured, hey, it's not a conflict of interest, why don't we do this together? 00:03:03:09 - 00:03:22:15 Ben And that's when we started the newsletter. It started, I want to say it was March of 2023 was our first issue. So coming up on two years now. And then it's just kind of snowballed from there. So the, you know, the newsletter was how we founded. A few months in, we had a bunch of people saying, hey, we really love this content, and we've got a new sales team or a new marketing team. 00:03:22:15 - 00:03:40:11 Ben We'd love you to come in and do a training. Would you be open to that? And we hadn't occurred to us but we were like, yeah, that sounds like fun. We like presenting, we like the content. And then that got good feedback. And so we, you know, constantly looking for new ways to get the ideas out there, whether that is speaking engagements, corporate trainings, 00:03:40:11 - 00:03:57:11 Ben the newsletter obviously is still the core, social video. We're trying to, we're really passionate about the idea of how you use psychology to be a better communicator, to be a better salesperson, to be a better marketer. And we're trying to get the content out there in whatever way we can, essentially. So that's kind of how we came to be. 00:03:57:13 - 00:04:00:02 Ben And I guess where we are today. 00:04:00:04 - 00:04:06:18 Alison And Darren, did you ever think that asking for that 15 minute meeting would lead to a pretty impressive side gig? 00:04:06:20 - 00:04:25:04 Darren No. So what Ben skillfully admitted was the fact that he was my manager at the time, and that's why we never got it going during that time. Because it's a conflict, seems like a conflict of interest. But what he's really trying to say that I was his favourite team member on the team, but he will lose his job if he said that. Now, now he can openly admit it. 00:04:25:07 - 00:04:28:07 Ben This is being recorded, we can't say that! 00:04:28:09 - 00:04:43:12 Darren But it was so much fun. Because I was, I didn't do is not because I didn't have time. I didn't make time. And and that's why Ben came in and say, hey, now that we're not on the same team, let's try to make time. So I'm very grateful for his mentorship, and I'm so glad that it's happening. 00:04:43:14 - 00:04:53:05 Alison That's one of the most successful outcomes of a restructure I've ever heard of, so... now, what are some of the most effective psychological tactics that you've seen used in marketing campaigns? 00:04:53:07 - 00:05:09:14 Darren I'll say a few, and then Ben, let me know if there's anything you want to add. A recent one that I've been seeing a lot on YouTube is actually a Airbnb one. It says, like the thing with hotels that they stay the same size, but your kid's getting bigger, or, this is your hotel room, but also your living room, also your kid's playground. 00:05:09:14 - 00:05:28:20 Darren And then just so cramped. But with Airbnb, you can do this and that. I thought that was a really, first of all, relatable and but also very clever because it touches on a few things that we all know. First of all, you know, it's got emotional appeal. We can all relate to some of the downside of living in the hotel, but also the idea of scarcity and exclusivity. 00:05:28:22 - 00:05:53:07 Darren But this whole unique experience that you get with personal connection with Airbnb hosts, with your own space, is very different. And also the scarcity of that. Sometimes there's only one house like this, whereas hotel, there's like, you know, I don't know, two hundred hotel rooms, and it's in this big building. So I feel like that was a very fun and clever one that we can all relate to through emotional appeal and scarcity and exclusivity. 00:05:53:09 - 00:06:15:22 Darren Another one that's been going around, I thought it was pretty interesting for a while, is actually, the Share a Coke campaign. It's the Coke bottle with your name on it. And, because Coke has been one of the most well-known brands for forever. So I feel like the one thing they do really well is that they always, constantly reinventing themselves. 00:06:15:22 - 00:06:33:09 Darren And this idea of personalization, because we all love seeing and hearing our names, they really brought it to light when they do that, but also the idea of social proof, right? People share the photos of their Coke bottle and say, hey, you had that. I don't have that. And also the idea of scarcity. Some names are more than others. 00:06:33:09 - 00:06:49:13 Darren Some names are less likely to be found than others, so people go and hunt for it. So these are really cool psychological tactics that they employ - the fear of missing out, scarcity, personalization. So these are some of the cool things that we've seen recently in marketing campaigns. 00:06:49:15 - 00:06:52:14 Alison Those are great examples. Ben, how would you build on those? 00:06:52:16 - 00:07:12:15 Ben It's hard to say which tactics are most effective, because a lot of it still comes down to, you know, how it's executed. So, you know, social proof, we know is an extremely powerful technique, extremely powerful concepts in the way that like, people interpret things, but the way you use it has to be, still needs to be unique and creative. 00:07:12:15 - 00:07:31:05 Ben There's still a human element in like, how do you come up with it? So every product in the world, every website in the world now has reviews. You know, whoever, or whoever was the first person to put a review on their website on their products, it was genius at the time, but now it's become table stakes and it doesn't stand out and it doesn't pull on it in quite the same way. 00:07:31:07 - 00:07:53:16 Ben So I think a real big element of like how you make these successful is, you have to understand the technique or the tactic and the concept behind it, but you also have to find creative ways to actually implement it. So it's not just a matter of like checking the box, you've got social proof because I put a review on these products, it's actually still maintaining that, you know, human creative element. 00:07:53:16 - 00:08:04:01 Ben And I think brands that figure out ways to do that. I think, you know, Darren, your examples, there were great ones. They're taking old techniques and applying them in new ways. 00:08:04:03 - 00:08:16:21 Alison Now, social media has certainly been a great potential accelerator for marketers and brands in doing this. Can you give a couple of examples where you've seen that really leveraged to its best benefit? 00:08:16:23 - 00:08:38:01 Ben Yeah, I mean, I mean social media especially like influencer marketing, "influencer" is kind of another word for, I think the formal research term would be like, authority. Because the influencers you follow do have a certain level of authority for whatever their, their niche or their topic is. I think a really interesting concept that works really well on social media is something called the effort heuristic. 00:08:38:03 - 00:09:06:21 Ben So sorry for sounding all like science-y. I don't like the word heuristic. But essentially it means people will take the effort that's put into something as a proxy for the quality. And I think the storytelling you can do with social media really lets you show the effort that goes into it. There's all this, like, a lot of social contact is like, you know, here's behind-the-scenes stuff of, you know, here's a movie, but all the socials are here's behind the scenes of the actors here at the work they're putting on it. 00:09:06:21 - 00:09:30:11 Ben Here's they are like training for the stunt scenes, and it really shows a lot of that effort that goes into it. And I think that's a really good way in social specifically to use that that concept in a really fun way that that resonates with, with customers, but also has that effect of showing people, God, these folks worked really hard on this product, on this movie, on this new service. 00:09:30:16 - 00:09:36:20 Ben It must be really good, because they take that as a as their proxy to understand how great it is. 00:09:36:22 - 00:09:48:06 Alison It's also intriguing to get that behind-the-scenes view too, and a better understanding of everything that goes into it, and just insights into how someone else is living and creating. 00:09:48:08 - 00:09:48:23 Ben Absolutely. 00:09:49:01 - 00:10:17:03 Darren Yeah, yeah, I would say social media really added an entirely different element to marketing, especially around authenticity and accountability. That level of authenticity was never achieved before social media. Alison, you mentioned behind-the-scenes stuff, right? Ben mentioned all these things that like, you know, all the behind-the-scenes. B-roll. It's a huge one. People want to know. Before, consumers will just see a perfect commercial right in front of them. 00:10:17:05 - 00:10:35:20 Darren And that and now social media, they almost don't care to be perfect. They want you to see they're messing up. They want you to see what's happening in the back. And then in the end, that's very human. And I think we really relate to that. And I think that level of authenticity brings a different level connection with us and our consumers and in terms of just overall accountability. 00:10:36:02 - 00:10:54:15 Darren Like you can't really get away with being a bad brand, bad products, because reviews, comments, you lose followership. And I think overall it's, I feel like it's much more tiring right now to be a marketer because there's so many, so many ways that you have to sort of cover your bases. But it's also, I think, way more fun, 00:10:54:15 - 00:11:03:22 Darren And way more interesting. So yeah, I think social media is a, is is not a whole topic. But I love the authenticity and accountability it creates. 00:11:04:00 - 00:11:10:10 Alison And you're so right that the life of a marketer, it's never been more exciting and more exhausting. Darren Yeah. Alison Very true. 00:11:10:12 - 00:11:19:05 Ben Yeah. There's more opportunities than ever before, but navigating through all of those different things is very complicated. 00:11:19:07 - 00:11:33:07 Alison Figuring out of all the opportunities, where do you place your bets? And yeah, inevitably when something goes wrong, it can the snowball can grow at such unbelievable pace, that how do you get in front of it and manage the downside too? 00:11:33:09 - 00:11:34:13 Ben Yeah for sure. 00:11:34:15 - 00:11:45:08 Alison So on that, there's also very valuable learning from understanding what doesn't work. So I'd love you both to share the top three mistakes that you see and how our audience can avoid or overcome them. 00:11:45:10 - 00:12:05:19 Ben So I put some thought into this in advance, and I've got my my three. I would say number one - and like if you take anything away from for people listening or watching, like if you take one thing away, it would be do not focus too much on the functional side, focus on the emotional side. People make very, very emotional decisions. 00:12:06:01 - 00:12:28:13 Ben And even if I rationalize that with some functional thing, oh, I chose this phone because the camera has a gazillion megapixels and it's got this much hard drive. And I've rationalize it with these facts. I chose that phone because I think it's cool and I like it, and it looks fun. There's an emotional element to every decision, and I think we spend so much time on, like, what is our unique value proposition? 00:12:28:13 - 00:12:54:01 Ben And here's functional benefit one and two and three and you know, eight, nine and ten. But really people are buying things or making decisions on emotional reasons. And as, as marketers we need to really emphasize that. So that's number one. I would say number two is, and this is getting into, sort of B2B versus B2C, but I think in B2C, a lot of people are like, yeah, we're we're talking to humans. 00:12:54:01 - 00:13:16:14 Ben We're talking to consumers. When you get into B2B, some people think like it's, oh, I'm talking to a company. It's this faceless corporation that I'm talking to. I should treat them as, you know, I'm selling to faceless Corporation A. It's like, well, Faceless Corporation A is actually made up of human beings. And the person that's going to decide if they should work with you or if they should buy your service or product is a human being. 00:13:16:15 - 00:13:36:16 Ben So even when it's B2B, these human ideas of the emotions and how you connect with them and how you persuade and communicate with them are every bit as important as in B2C. And we get that pushback a lot where people say, well, I'm in B2B, so so this doesn't apply. And it's like, well, the person on the other side of the table is still a person. 00:13:36:18 - 00:13:56:07 Ben And then I would say like number three for me is there are so many different tactics and techniques that we talk about. I mean, we have a, almost an infinite runway for a newsletter where we do one technique every month. And I think having a bunch of those in your toolkit lets you choose the one that is going to work best in a given situation. 00:13:56:07 - 00:14:13:21 Ben I think a lot of people will say like, okay, I really like social proof, as an example. I'm going to put social proof into everything. It's like, well, it's a great tool, but you also have to know when to use it. And not all tactics are going to work in all situations. So they'll try to force something where it doesn't fit. 00:14:13:21 - 00:14:31:17 Ben So I would say for me those the big three is - really focus on the emotional side. B2B - still humans, still still talking to other humans. We're emotional, irrational beings. And number three is like finding the right tactics for the right situation, because not everything works every time. 00:14:31:19 - 00:14:52:08 Alison Those all three are great. The everyone's a human ultimately, when we're marketing is the one that really resonates for me. And in many ways, B2C and B2B are outdated concepts, it's always B2H. We're always communicating to humans and at the core of what we're doing, would certainly make life easier. So, Darren, what would you add? 00:14:52:10 - 00:15:11:21 Darren I would just add, maybe like 1.5, maybe not all three. Because these are really good ones. I think one thing I would add is, not listening well enough. We're like, very quick to rush to get our argument across. Or when they're saying something you just think about, oh, this is exactly what I'm going to say to respond to what they're saying. 00:15:11:22 - 00:15:32:11 Darren But really just take a, take a beat and listen to what they're saying. And, you know, very often we see people go to like a presentation and we see people just go point after point after point. And, it's like pitch, pitch, pitch. Do you like it? And they don't take a second to really address what people are actually wanting or what people are actually struggling with. 00:15:32:13 - 00:15:51:05 Darren We definitely see that a lot, especially coming from really, really capable, smart people because they have they have so much information they want to get across. But it's kind of like having a conversation with someone where every sentence is an "I" in it. There's no "you" in it. Just I this, I this, I this. And I think we should flip that around. Say - what do you think? 00:15:51:05 - 00:16:08:07 Darren How do you feel about this? Does it sound good to you? Does it sound bad to you? I think that's one huge mistake that a lot of people here, and we would love to see people more just taking a step back and listening to their counterpart and really absorbing it. And even if you don't have anything good to say, at least you're acknowledging it and you're... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/34941170

EP33 - Marketing's Lifetime Achievement with Mary DePaoli 12/10/2024

EP33 - Marketing's Lifetime Achievement with Mary DePaoli In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mary DePaoli, Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at RBC and recipient of the 2024 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award. Mary shares her unconventional career journey, from journalism to marketing leadership. She discusses the value of P&L experience in marketing, the importance of seeking diverse opinions, and the power of mentorship. Mary offers insights on building a personal board of directors, taking calculated risks, and the joy of developing future leaders. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:19 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:20:21 - 00:00:46:09 Alison It is my absolute pleasure to welcome Mary DePaoli as my guest today. Mary is the Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at RBC, where her strategic leadership and marketing expertise have dramatically elevated RBC's reputation. She's made it Canada's number one most valuable brand since 2019. This year, Mary received our CMA Lifetime Achievement Award and is a very, very deserving recipient. 00:00:46:11 - 00:01:14:06 Alison Mary is the brains behind a number of RBC's marquee initiatives across sports, community, arts, and culture. The integration of brand strategy with sustainability and impact is core to her approach. As the chair of the foundation, Mary has deepened RBC's connection with communities and reinforced its commitment to social responsibility, solidifying RBC as a purpose-driven organization admired as much for its values as for its business acumen. 00:01:14:08 - 00:01:41:15 Alison Her personal dedication to mentorship and fostering positive change in our culture and communities is evident through her roles on the boards of Women in Sports and Events, the Toronto International Film Festival, and Western University's fundraising committee. Mary's leadership, significant contributions, and the heart and humanity that she brings to everything she does make her such a deserving recipient of our 2024 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award. 00:01:41:17 - 00:02:04:20 Alison She's also been recognized by Strategy magazine as Marketer of the Year and as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women. Today, we'll explore Mary's unique career path, some of the lessons she's learned along the way, and her advice for marketers who aspire to make their own mark on the profession. Welcome,, Mary, I am so thrilled to have you joining us today, and congratulations once again on your well-deserved recognition. 00:02:04:22 - 00:02:08:22 Mary Oh, thank you so much, Alison. It's really good to be here with you. 00:02:09:00 - 00:02:15:22 Alison So I'm going to kick things off by having you share a little bit about your career path and what initially attracted you to marketing. 00:02:16:00 - 00:02:47:09 Mary Well, my career path was fairly untraditional, I would say. I began my academic career, if you will, as an arts major. And then I got a master's degree in journalism. Found myself spending 17 years in the investment business with a focus on group retirement, group savings, institutional investments in the 90s and 2000s. And then, as I worked my way through my career, it was very dynamic. A very dynamic industry. 00:02:47:15 - 00:03:28:04 Mary I really enjoyed having clients, working in a P&L, and having accountability for a business. But our CEO said one day, you know, I am thinking about creating a Chief Marketing Officer role for Sun Life Financial, and I think you'd be good at it. And it was a bit startling for me because I had never seen myself in anything other than a specific set of roles that related to what I was currently doing. But it really speaks to the value of having great mentors and great champions in your career, because they often see that your skills can be highly portable. 00:03:28:06 - 00:03:57:02 Mary I thought about it for about a week. I took a leap of faith, largely because he was confident in the decision. I wasn't as confident, I'll be honest with you. I didn't know anything about marketing. It was a completely new territory for me. But ultimately, the more I learned and the more I surrounded myself with experts and incredible people that were so giving of their time and knowledge, I realized that this was not just another career for me. It was going to be a destination for me. 00:03:57:02 - 00:04:12:22 Mary And that's how I found myself in marketing. It was really the belief and the understanding that skills can be quite portable, and having great mentors around you who are willing to take a bet on you. 00:04:13:00 - 00:04:32:18 Alison It is amazing how other people can see more of our potential than we sometimes can see in ourselves. So I love that story. I also want to take you back to your early journalism days because, when we were chatting, you had shared what was, to me, a very fascinating story around your time in Washington. And it was such a great example of the initiative that you've brought to all aspects of your career. So I know our listeners would love to hear more about that experience, too. 00:04:41:20 - 00:05:13:18 Mary Well, it was an amazing time. I was going to school, and as part of my academic study, I had the ability to work several internships. And my favourite one, and the one that I spent the most time at, was working at the CNN affiliate in Washington during the presidential election. I have never experienced a more interesting and vibrant and just, you know, unbelievable culture. You know, I was 22 years old. I was living in Washington, I was learning, I was working, and one of my roles at CNN was to work on Sundays and to essentially just be a runner for Larry King and The Larry King Show. But it was very hard to get close to Larry King. I mean, he was such an incredible phenom and, you know, just a real pillar of journalism, especially at the time. 00:05:42:11 - 00:06:03:15 Mary But I wanted so much to learn from him. I wanted to learn his interview strategies. I wanted to learn how he was able to sort of tap into his guests and bring out incredible stories that they were known for, in every realm, whether it was politics or entertainment. But it was very hard to get close to Larry. So I realized one day that, every Sunday, Larry liked to order lemon chicken as part of an order that came into CNN. And so I became the runner for his lemon chicken. And I made a point every Sunday of getting his lemon chicken, bringing it to him, and just spending a minute or whatever he had, to ask him a question. 00:06:25:17 - 00:06:48:09 Mary And as he got more and more comfortable with me, as every Sunday went by, and I would drop off his chicken, he would give me more time, and more advice until we were now joking with each other, especially around baseball. He was, you know, an incredible baseball fan. The Toronto Blue Jays were in the World Series, and so it was a very friendly sparring between whose country was better. 00:06:48:17 - 00:07:24:12 Mary And ultimately, we made a bet, and if the Jays won, he agreed to wear a Canada pin on his tie during the next broadcast. And of course, we all know what happened. The Jays did win. He did fulfill his bet, and it was just an amazing friendship that we had. And so, when I step back and think about that, one of the things I like to say to anyone I’m mentoring is you will find that knowledge and insight and access, and life lessons come from some of the most unusual places. But don’t be afraid to find ways to just put yourself into a situation. Back in the day, we would say, you know, just walk by the photocopier machine if there was someone that had an office near it and you wanted to bump in and learn from them. Whatever the avenue is, get creative and find ways to just get exposure to the people that you're inspired by. 00:07:48:21 - 00:07:58:02 Mary And I know for me, with that Larry King story, there were lessons I learned from him that three decades later, I’m still applying in my daily life. 00:07:58:04 - 00:08:20:08 Alison I love that story. The power of lemon chicken. And to your point, like demonstrating that initiative and finding a way and what it can lead to. It also sounds like a magical time with the Jays and everything else, but way to make the most of it. That’s clearly served you well throughout your career. Now, you also highlighted having P&L accountability very early in your career and certainly before you became a marketer. So how has that shaped you as a marketer? 00:08:23:04 - 00:08:47:23 Mary I would say it was one of the most fundamental building blocks, whether it was in this job or even in any other job that I foresaw myself in, having the ability to understand how a business works, how it makes money, how it interacts with clients, how it wins clients, how it loses clients, how you segment clients, and understand how to create value. 00:08:47:23 - 00:09:17:04 Mary It doesn’t matter what segment, it doesn’t matter what customer base, it doesn’t matter where in the world. When you have worked in a business, it gives you a fundamental understanding of what you are trying to do as a business to appeal to an audience. And I often bring all of those lessons learned when I was interacting with customers, or building products, or being fired by them, or being hired by them. It gives you an intuition as a marketer that is invaluable. 00:09:17:06 - 00:09:37:01 Mary And so one of the things I say to so many marketers when they ask me, "What are some of the steps that I can take to become a stronger marketer in my career?" I will always tell them, find a way to work in a business, learn a business. 00:09:37:03 - 00:09:53:12 Mary What you learn is so portable, both to any other business if you decide you wanted to stay in that stream, or as a marketer, because it gives you a fundamental understanding of why you are marketing, who you are marketing to, and why it matters. 00:09:53:14 - 00:10:21:18 Alison I absolutely share that passion. It also gives you, beyond the insights of what it takes to run a business, also gives you great credibility because your colleagues across the business know that you've been in their shoes and really understand what's required to deliver a successful business. We both know that marketing is absolutely crucial to building businesses. And to be able to talk on both sides of that conversation and have experience on both the P&L and the marketing side is absolutely a game changer. 00:10:21:20 - 00:10:39:11 Alison Now, often, and certainly in my case, some of the hardest lessons I've learned have been through mistakes and learning them the hard way. And sometimes those are the most memorable. That's a lot of memory glue when you learn a lesson the hard way. So I'd love you to share a lesson or two that you've learned the hard way. 00:10:40:00 - 00:11:05:15 Mary What a great question. I think you're so right, Alison. It's often through how you are tested that you grow. And I would say one of the most fundamental lessons I've learned, and I think it applies to so many times where I reflect back and think, "That was a bit of a miss" or "That was a huge miss" or "Could I have done something better or different?" 00:11:07:00 - 00:11:52:09 Mary It all sort of points back to one area, and that is this: when I've gone into a situation and I didn't have enough perspective, it sort of leads you to a spot where you're working with less information and you're at less of an advantage. And so, one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned coming out of a meeting, or coming out of an altercation, or coming out of something that just may not have ended well or has gone sideways, is I always ask myself, "Did I take the time upfront to really talk to enough people to get a well-rounded view of the situation?" I find when I've done that and I've brought in different perspectives, perspectives from people that I may or may not agree with, I walk away thinking, "All right, I can see that problem or that issue from so many different dimensions," and the complexion of the issue or the complexion of the problem becomes much more solvable if you will. 00:12:16:09 - 00:12:42:04 Mary But the times where I've walked away frustrated, or it's been a miss, or someone's been frustrated, or we're delayed, or whatever the case might be in the work, it's usually because I haven't actually thought widely enough or consulted enough people. And so that's really where mistakes are made, because in the end, you end up with something that is suboptimal because it doesn't reflect everyone's viewpoint. 00:12:42:06 - 00:13:03:06 Mary And even when you're in a situation where you can only go forward with one view, at least if you have engaged everyone, you can still agree to disagree, but walk out of that room knowing that everybody was heard and had a chance to contribute. And that actually allows you to have a much smoother glide path with whatever it is you're doing. 00:13:03:06 - 00:13:34:21 Mary So I think the biggest lessons that that I have learned have been take the time upfront, engage everyone that has a stake or even has a different opinion than yours, and come at it thoughtfully, whatever that might be. I find that you you end up with a much better outcome, a better engagement, and a better kind of culture around your team than if you're just sort of driving ahead without having as much diversity of opinion. 00:13:34:23 - 00:13:51:14 Alison That's great advice. And one additional lesson I took out of that that you didn't overtly say, because it's so natural to who you are and how you work, when you came out of an altercation or mistake, the first thing you did was look at yourself and said, "What's my role in this? What should I have done differently?" Not everyone does that, so that's a huge lesson as well. 00:13:53:07 - 00:13:56:17 Mary That self-reflection is is so important. Yeah. 00:13:56:19 - 00:14:02:10 Alison And with the benefit of hindsight, is there anything that you would change about your career journey? 00:14:02:12 - 00:14:36:17 Mary I think I've had an incredible journey. You know, my my origin story is one of very humble beginnings. And I, I didn't have high expectations of myself when I was younger. I knew I had this burning desire to learn and be curious, but as I look at the career that I've had, I've had the ability to work with so many people in so many sectors, doing many different things that have built up my skills. 00:14:36:19 - 00:15:03:09 Mary I think looking back, there isn't anything that I would change per se, but the advice that I think I might have given my younger self would have been to have bet on myself a lot earlier, and to have had the confidence to make some of these moves a lot sooner in my career. I was more cautious. I always felt that I needed to be able to master a job, or at least be 99% there 00:15:03:09 - 00:15:32:12 Mary before I took it. But I think going forward, I, and certainly my younger self, I think I would have given myself this advice. As long as you're about 70% comfortable, what's the worst that could happen? Go for it! And and so that would be what I would have changed, Alison, is I think I would have taken some of these bets and made some of these moves earlier in my career, and just had more confidence that it's going to be okay and not have, overanalyze or been so hard on myself. 00:15:32:12 - 00:15:51:15 Mary And I like to tell people that, when they come to me for career advice, what is the worst that can happen here? And they typically think about it and go, oh yeah, you know, it's probably not that bad. I usually say, well, then go for it, go for it. So that would be what I would change. 00:15:51:17 - 00:16:14:13 Alison That's very freeing advice and I think it's relevant for anyone. It's particularly relevant for women who can often expect ourselves to have 90 - 100% of the skills before we raise our hand for something. Now, you mentioned earlier that it was the Sun Life CEO who saw potential for you in a leadership role in marketing long before you gave yourself credit for that. 00:16:14:15 - 00:16:21:06 Alison So what gave you the courage to make that leap, and how has it impacted your career? 00:16:21:08 - 00:17:00:08 Mary I think what gave me the courage was I had a direct manager in him, in Don Stewart and I had some very good mentors around me and great colleagues around me that were able to show me, number one, that your skills are very portable, and number two, that there was very little downside in trying something different. And so I think where I lacked the confidence, often I would just trust that the people that I admired had it in me. 00:17:00:10 - 00:17:23:17 Mary And so that trust went a long way. And then it was really simply a matter of saying, all right, I'm going to just put my hand up, even if I'm terrified, even if I'm uncomfortable, and I'm going to go for it. And so when, when I, when I share some of these experiences or draw them out of people that I'm mentoring, I typically say, you know, who is your personal board of directors? 00:17:23:19 - 00:17:43:16 Mary And I'm always very curious about the answer. And if they don't have one or it's not broad enough, that's the first thing I'll say to them is, get one. Get a board of directors that reflects where you want to grow. Ensure that it's made up of people that are very different than you, because they'll be additive to you. 00:17:43:18 - 00:18:09:02 Mary And as you go through different phases in your life and different phases in your career, keep adding to or changing that personal board of directors, because they will reflect where you're going, not where you've been. And, and I think that's that's always been something that I found very helpful as I've been looking at decisions in my either my personal life or importantly in my career. 00:18:09:04 - 00:18:22:23 Alison That's such great advice again. So you are very much for someone who pays it forward, and you are known as an incredible mentor and sponsor as well. So what's inspired you to invest so much in developing others? 00:18:23:01 - 00:18:42:17 Mary It's one of the biggest joys in in my day. I'm going to be honest with you, Alison, I, I love and maybe that's the the former journalist in me, but I love sitting down with someone and saying, all right, tell me everything. Where are you going? What are you struggling with? What do you love about what you're doing? 00:18:42:17 - 00:19:06:10 Mary What do you not love about what you're doing? What kind of manager do you want to be? What kind of leader do you want to be? What kind of contributor do you want to be? What does life at retirement look like? And it's it's interesting you go on these journeys with people and you are able to draw out things that they know, but often you can just frame differently for them. 00:19:06:12 - 00:19:29:06 Mary And it gives me so much joy to be able to do that. I don't know that I necessarily teach them anything new about themselves. I really I don't think I do, but I think the joy in the in the interaction is that you're able to reframe something that maybe they were too close to, and they walk away thinking, all right, I've got a different path or I can see the path clearer. 00:19:29:08 - 00:19:50:15 Mary And so that's why I enjoy spending time with people and, and mentoring them. And, you know, really just understanding how they view the world. Now, I'll tell you, it's not just one way. It is very much mutually beneficial, because what I walk away with every time is a new insight or something that I hadn't thought about before. 00:19:50:15 - 00:20:14:08 Mary And as I like to joke, my mentees actually are... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/34306715

EP32 - Entrepreneurial Spirit Meets Marketing Excellence with Alison Osborne 11/26/2024

EP32 - Entrepreneurial Spirit Meets Marketing Excellence with Alison Osborne In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, speaks with Alison Osborne, the VP of Marketing at Quill Inc. Osborne shares her entrepreneurial journey, her company's acquisition, and winning the CMA's prestigious Achievement in Marketing (AIM) award. She also discusses the importance of self-advocacy and provides tips for young professionals striving to advance their careers. . 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:18 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:20:20 - 00:00:46:11 Alison S. I'm very happy to welcome my guest today, Alison Osborne. Alison's a VP of Marketing at Quill Inc. and the most recent winner of our prestigious CMA Achievement in Marketing Award. This award honours a rising star who has shown outstanding performance and promise in the marketing profession early in their career. Before joining Quill, Allison founded Origins Media House. They're a company specializing in branded podcasts that was later acquired by Quill. 00:00:46:13 - 00:01:14:02 Alison S. Her journey from young entrepreneur to now working in marketing at a larger organization is one filled with some valuable lessons, some challenges overcome, and also exciting opportunities seized. So in this episode, we'll explore Alison's entrepreneurial beginnings, the experience of having her company acquired, and also her thoughts on the future of content marketing. She'll share her motivation around the AIM Award, and also offer some great advice for young professionals who are looking to take charge of their careers. 00:01:14:04 - 00:01:19:03 Alison S. So I would like to officially welcome my namesake, Alison, to the CMA Connect podcast today. 00:01:19:05 - 00:01:24:12 Alison O. Hello, Alison. Thank you so much for having me. And, what a nice intro. 00:01:24:14 - 00:01:40:01 Alison S. We're going to try not to confuse each other with Alison. And it's even spelled the right way. So that's that's pretty unusual. To kick things off, can you share what led you to start Origins Media House, and also what motivated you to pursue the path of entrepreneurship? 00:01:40:03 - 00:02:04:20 Alison O. Yeah, definitely. So Origins Media House, which I will shorten to OMH for speaking purposes because it is quite a lengthy name. It started out when I was in, I believe it was my second year of university where I was going to, Toronto Metropolitan University and myself, as well as a few friends in the program I was in, as well as some other production programs, 00:02:04:22 - 00:02:27:11 Alison O. we wanted to get a better understanding of, how entrepreneurs were building their companies, what their journeys were looking like. We were young. We were, gung ho about starting our careers. The program that we were in was very entrepreneurial focused. And, a good friend of mine actually started with the idea of, well, let's see what others are doing where we're new to the space. 00:02:27:13 - 00:03:04:08 Alison O. If we ever want to start our own thing, we kind of want the playbook of what others were doing. So we began with having conversations and networking and building almost a magazine. An online magazine about, these founders' experiences. And throughout that journey, we fell in love with the production side of speaking to these entrepreneurs. So we would develop a lot of creative assets around these interviews, like videos and photography and, in some cases audio, and realized that we had a bit of a knack for it as well. 00:03:04:08 - 00:03:40:19 Alison O. And, from there, a lot of the founders and startups that we were speaking to were looking for production work themselves, and it was kind of a natural partnership from that point forward of, we're able to almost use our magazine as a lead generation piece to then get clients to do the production work for. So with that, I would say we didn't set out to become entrepreneurs in our mind. We set out to understand entrepreneurs, and then from there naturally fell into becoming entrepreneurs ourselves. 00:03:40:21 - 00:03:58:22 Alison O. And it was, a really fun and creative journey for us to take. And I enjoyed that we kind of had these building blocks and knowledge to use of what we had learned from who we were speaking to, to then apply to our own company. 00:03:59:02 - 00:04:16:17 Alison S. I love that you started this almost as a school project and really taught yourself about entrepreneurship, and then decided, this is a pretty cool path. I'm going to pursue it. And to do that with a couple of people that you had gone to school with is an amazing experience. I've also been an entrepreneur and there's so much to love about it. 00:04:16:17 - 00:04:27:17 Alison S. I will absolutely describe it as sort of a a real world way to get your MBA. It also comes with challenges. So I'd love to hear some of the challenges that you and your colleagues overcame. 00:04:27:19 - 00:04:59:08 Alison O. Yeah, I would say, a couple challenges and and hard lessons. We were obviously very young, so we didn't have years of career experience prior to lean back on as knowledge when we would hit some more difficult situations or decisions to be made. So we failed fast and learned quickly and mistakes that we made were things like, the importance of lawyers when it comes to contracts and things like that, 00:04:59:08 - 00:05:31:12 Alison O. and some of those mistakes cost a lot of money and really hurt. But we learned from them. And I think because we were, again, so young and excited with this experience and, fresh in the entrepreneurial landscape. Although those challenges were tough, we were very agile with them as well. And, we were able to move and pivot the company as we saw fit. 00:05:31:14 - 00:05:44:23 Alison O. And, if something didn't work, we scrapped it.We moved forward. We didn't dwell on it. And, it was, I think the mindset that we had around the company was, was a good one to have at that time. 00:05:45:01 - 00:05:56:15 Alison S. That's amazing. And some of when I look back on my career, the painful lessons are absolutely the ones that you're never going to repeat and will stay with you decades from now. 00:05:56:17 - 00:05:59:03 Alison O. Yes, yes for sure. 00:05:59:09 - 00:06:18:03 Alison S. Now, I want you to walk us through the acquisition process. When Quill acquired OMH, what were some of the key considerations and challenges that you and your co-founders faced as you were deciding to sell your company? Because that's such a big decision. In many ways, this is your baby. you've worked hard together to build it, and then you think about when and are you ready to sell it? 00:06:18:03 - 00:06:20:02 Alison S. So I'd love to hear more about that. 00:06:20:04 - 00:06:45:21 Alison O. Yeah, yeah. So we were about, I want to say, 4 or 5 years into, the growth of our company. So it was relatively well established. And at that point in time, we had noticed maybe about two years prior that there was starting to be a new medium taking the stand. And that was podcasts, and we had a knack for that audio piece, too. 00:06:45:21 - 00:07:09:16 Alison O. And we were creating podcasts for ourselves, for the company, and then naturally had some of the companies that we were working with come to us and ask for a podcast for their company. And at this time, Branded Podcast was such a new term. It was very fresh for companies to start using this as a marketing tool. And we noticed that there weren't a lot of agencies in the space that were focusing on that audio piece. 00:07:09:16 - 00:07:46:11 Alison O. So, we pivoted our company to become primarily just a branded podcast production agency. And, at that time, Quill was also coming to market, which they were a market, a digital marketplace first, and then also a podcast agency second. And we ended up partnering with them on a couple projects, with various clients. So we were lucky in the sense that we had already had a tester of knowing that the two companies worked well together and that we enjoyed their team, they enjoyed our team. 00:07:46:15 - 00:08:14:17 Alison O. We brought a lot of the production and creativity background. They brought a lot of the, biz dev knowledge. So it was quite a natural partnership. And then in 2020, there was, final decision of they approached us with an offer for an acquisition. And at that time in our lives, we were all again, like I said, 4 or 5 years into this, it was a really great experience. 00:08:14:17 - 00:08:41:15 Alison O. We we absolutely loved it. But we were also tired. And this was the only career experience to, to an extent that we had had. And we were ready to try something new. And, and as I'm sure we'll discuss as well, join a bit of a larger company and have more resources and also take a bit of a step down and enjoy being employees for once versus, creators and decided to, to make that decision. 00:08:41:15 - 00:09:09:04 Alison O. So but I would say the key things that we looked at were the synergy between our two companies, which again, we were lucky to know worked well. We looked at what all of our roles and futures were going to look like at that company. So where Quill saw us fitting in and what our departments would look like and the autonomy that we would have over those departments, that was a big piece as well. 00:09:09:09 - 00:09:33:04 Alison O. And then also just the future of and the vision of Quill and where they saw the company going and did align with how we feel about content, how we feel about audio, do we feel excitement towards it? And we got to be a bit, I would say selfish in that, what do we want? And personally, what do we want our career paths to look like? 00:09:33:04 - 00:09:35:01 Alison O. And will this support us? 00:09:35:01 - 00:09:58:22 Alison S. It's amazing. It sounds like such a great coming together, two organizations and to your point, like being able to work with the people when you were two separate companies that immersed in their culture. Because often what will make for a very bad partnership is its very different cultures. If there's not complementary skill sets, and if you're not bringing something new, instead you're bringing more of what they're already doing, 00:09:58:22 - 00:10:26:06 Alison S. and it sounds like, your business And Quill was highly complimentary from a cultural perspective or from a talent perspective and from a product offering perspective. So, very good. Yeah. As you mentioned, even with all of those things working to your advantage, going from your entire career, being an entrepreneur, in control of your own destiny to a large degree, to becoming an employee, it's a fascinating transition that's also rich with learning. 00:10:26:08 - 00:10:29:17 Alison S. So I'd love to hear you share some about that experience as well. 00:10:29:18 - 00:11:04:10 Alison O. Yeah, I, I mentioned this before, but, we are all and to this day so very lucky that although now employees, we have a lot of autonomy over our departments. So rather than being co-founder and CMO, I now got to transition to just running the marketing department. So all those co-founder responsibilities and weight on me was lifted. And I got to feel as if I have this sense of entrepreneurship. 00:11:04:10 - 00:11:26:09 Alison O. Still, with the autonomy of the department, I now get to run. But it's all focused on the area of my job that I love the most, which is marketing. And I again, to this day, still get to make a lot of the decisions of where are we going with this? What is this going to look like? What are our next steps? 00:11:26:15 - 00:12:09:01 Alison O. And feel that entrepreneurial, creative spirit that is still alive. But now, just as an employee versus an owner. And of course, it was an adjustment, for myself as well as my co-founders and also an adjustment for the team members that we carried along with us through the acquisition, too. But I think that at that time and even now, it was a good decision for me to be able to hone in on my skill and marketing even more, because now that's where I got to place my emphasis and also be a bit more selfish in my own career. 00:12:09:07 - 00:12:34:09 Alison O. And think about myself and what I want moving forward versus always having the worry of keeping the lights on and the employees happy, which of course, as a manager now, I still think about and I worry about, and I want to make sure my team members are happy, but it's to a different degree. And, and yeah, so I would say it was, an interesting transition, but a good one. 00:12:34:11 - 00:12:48:16 Alison S. And to your point, you get to focus on the part of the job you love. And that way and I can totally relate to even when you said the word weight, there was a yeah, that's real. Like you're not just worried about paying your rent and your mortgage and your bills. You're worried about everyone that's working for you. 00:12:48:16 - 00:13:11:01 Alison S. You feel an accountability for making sure the business is solid and thriving so that they also have that security. So I can totally relate to that weight being released and really being able to focus. Then you also called out like, this is a big decision for you and your co-founders. It's also a bit scary for the team at your organization who are now going to become part of a new organization. 00:13:11:06 - 00:13:14:21 Alison S. So how did you help get that uncomfortable through the process? 00:13:14:23 - 00:13:56:04 Alison O. Yeah, I, I think that, the early on, partnerships that we had with Quill from the beginning helped for sure, because now the team was familiar with the name, they were familiar with the leaders of the company, with the other types of team members that we would be working with. So that wasn't a surprise. I also think that because we were doing the same thing, it was now, it wasn't that they had to change the tasks that they were doing, and the even the types of companies that they were working with, it was just going to be under a new name and with a bigger team with more resources. 00:13:56:06 - 00:14:30:21 Alison O. So of course, we had sit down conversations with our team and for some of them, that were primarily contractors versus full time, decided not to come along with the acquisition. And we had conversations with those, and that's okay. But for the team members that did decide to, to follow through with the acquisition as well, I think that because it was just such a natural partnership, it wasn't as big of a friction point because they got to do what they were doing under each. 00:14:30:21 - 00:14:31:20 Alison O. Anyways. 00:14:31:22 - 00:14:43:21 Alison S. Yeah, so much about changes the unknown. And to your point, because you had a chance to work together as two teams coming together with a shared purpose that takes a lot of the unknown and the fear out of it for sure. 00:14:43:23 - 00:14:46:07 Alison O. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 00:14:46:09 - 00:15:00:22 Alison S. Now, you've mentioned a couple times being selfish about your career, and I don't think you're being selfish about your career at all. I think what you're doing is managing your career, so I'd love to hear how the acquisition and your new role at Quill has opened new opportunities for your career growth. 00:15:00:22 - 00:15:35:20 Alison O. Yeah. In many ways, the first I would say is they have dedicated a lot of resources and to, team members for our own personal growth, in our careers, for example, I worked with a, growth marketing advisor for about a year, and, he, I credit him to a lot of my perspective on growth, falling in love with data marketing. 00:15:35:20 - 00:16:12:20 Alison O. And that piece of the puzzle was previously I was very much more content focused branding focused, didn't have that knack for the data piece, the data and growth and even product marketing piece, and he really honed that skill with me. So having resources like him on deck to be able to utilize and, leverage and shape the career path that I will be pursuing in the future, continuing to move forward as well as, we launched a analytics and, podcast insights product in 2022, and that has been an amazing experience. 00:16:12:20 - 00:16:44:17 Alison O. And, previously I had never worked on any sort of product. So it's been an entirely new piece of the marketing puzzle for me that I've gotten to learn about and own and shape and refine my own skills and perspectives on. So I would say elements like that that just lend to a larger company where you can do a bit more, invest a bit more, play with bigger budget and have more people to utilize. 00:16:44:22 - 00:16:50:19 Alison O. It's opened the doors for where I see myself moving forward. 00:16:50:21 - 00:17:09:18 Alison S. That's such great learning. So knowing that Quill specializes in branded podcasts, I'd love you to share your insights on the rise of this medium. You mentioned it a little bit earlier. It's still relatively new, but particularly on the Canadian market. What trends are you observing and what do you think has led to the rise of branded podcasts? 00:17:09:19 - 00:17:39:00 Alison O. Yeah, I think that it's a pretty common opinion that typically the Canadian market is, quite a bit behind the US market when it comes to a variety of things, including media. And we felt that for sure over the past few years. And I would say it's been relatively recently that we're feeling a lot of growth and a lot of investment in the Canadian market when it comes to branded podcasts in particular. 00:17:39:01 - 00:18:11:08 Alison O. And I would say a big reason for this being is that the medium is very effective for not just like awareness and reach and positively shifting brand perception. And those more top funnel activities. But I think that it does a great job at humanizing a brand because it's not common, especially for larger organizations, for customers to see the people behind the brand. 00:18:11:10 - 00:18:51:11 Alison O. And podcasts do that really well at giving a voice and a face and a personality, to a company. And I think that piece of the puzzle is really powerful and what brands are leveraging the most. And from there, I think that it forms, relatively, deep and strong connection between brand and listener. But I will say that this means producing a piece of content that is actually valuable to the listener. That is something they would want to listen to for 30 plus minutes. 00:18:51:17 - 00:19:17:05 Alison O. And, not an extended infomercial for your company, because I don't want to listen to that. You don't want to listen to that, and no other listener will want to listen to that. So there's quite a fine line when it comes to branded podcasts of yes, it's by a brand, but it's not the content that your brand wants to create, it's the content that the audience actually wants to listen to. Which there are some doing really well in the space. 00:19:17:05 - 00:19:49:10 Alison O. For example, within the Canadian market, SickKids hospital has an amazing podcast called Sick Kids Versus. And, they take listeners to the frontline of the fight for child health. And you hear from doctors, hear from family members. It's a beautifully edited podcast. And, another one is even the, Team Canada with the Canadian Olympics. They put out a podcast called Momentum this year, hearing from female, athletes that were preparing for the Olympics, which was a really cool podcast as well. 00:19:49:13 - 00:19:59:18 Alison O. So I think we're seeing more shows come to market and more brands get creative with the type of content that they're producing. 00:19:59:20 - 00:20:26:09... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/33903292

EP31 - Storytelling for Success with Kayla Grey 11/12/2024

EP31 - Storytelling for Success with Kayla Grey In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Kayla Grey, sideline reporter for the Toronto Raptors, and host and co-executive producer of "The Shift with Kayla Grey" on TSN. Kayla will also host the 2024 CMA Awards Gala. Alison and Kayla discuss Kayla's career journey, the strategies that helped her build her brand, and how influential storytelling is in an industry lacking diversity. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:18 - 00:00:49:03 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by a very special guest. Kayla Grey is a trailblazing figure in the world of sports media. As the host and co-executive producer of The Shift with Kayla Grey on TSN, she's been at the forefront of driving important conversations at the intersection of sports and culture. Kayla is also a sideline reporter for the Toronto Raptors, bringing fans closer to the action and the many stories behind the game. 00:00:49:05 - 00:01:10:18 Alison I'm excited to share that Kayla is also hosting this year's CMA Awards Gala on November 22nd. It's going to be a terrific evening celebrating the amazing creativity and impactful work of Canada's marketing profession and all that we've accomplished over the last year. As someone who embraces and has benefited from creativity is important role in building both brands and business, 00:01:10:23 - 00:01:37:17 Alison Kayla will be a wonderful host. In today's episode, we're diving into Kayla's remarkable career journey, exploring some of the lessons she's learned along the way and her strategies behind building a powerful personal brand. We'll also discuss the critical role of creativity in marketing and storytelling, and explores Kayla's thoughts on the future of the sports and entertainment industry. Welcome, Kayla, I am absolutely thrilled to have you here today and looking forward to a great conversation. 00:01:37:19 - 00:01:39:13 Kayla Thanks so much for having me. 00:01:39:13 - 00:01:46:10 Alison Now, I would love to start by having you share a bit about your career journey so far, particularly your experience launching The Shift on TSN. 00:01:46:13 - 00:02:12:19 Kayla So I came to TSN as a radio producer. And sort of that was my intro into the sports world on a broadcasting space. So producing radio, Raptors game nights, Leaf game nights, and then really just working my way into getting in front of the camera, I noticed that there was not really anybody talking about the Raptors at that time, or the opponents that were coming in. 00:02:12:19 - 00:02:30:03 Kayla So I kind of pitched myself to our digital team and said, hey, like, if you're a fan of the Raptors, I truly believe you're a fan of the NBA. Let me talk about it for free 99. And they did. And so that's how I was able to kind of build my rapport that way until I was auditioning for Sportscentre. 00:02:30:05 - 00:02:54:05 Kayla I made my debut of course, and became the first black woman to host a sports highlight show in Canada. And so that was great for me to kind of really get my reps in that way, but then also get my intros in that way, too, with the national audience. I continued with my coverage of the Raptors and really, really knew that there was something I did want to also contribute to the network, which was a show. 00:02:54:07 - 00:03:15:22 Kayla Roll around, 2020 comes around. We're talking about a lack of diversity within the space and one of my biggest things that I've championed all the entire time I was there was the lack of diversity in storytelling, particularly with marginalized communities, but also with women as well. And so, you know, I was thinking and mulling and I was just like, what do I want to watch? 00:03:16:04 - 00:03:40:20 Kayla What does that perfect show look like for me? What are the topics? What are the conversations? What are the things aesthetically that I want to see? And I literally was jotting down every single idea on a napkin. And I brought it to our brand partnership team, who brought it, of course, to a sponsor. They came in and boom, we launched The Shift and we're, I think four seasons, and now still rolling strong. 00:03:40:22 - 00:04:01:07 Kayla And yeah, I think like the first of its kind in this country in terms of it being a digital-based platform on a national network. And so I'm just so proud of the work that we've done. But I'm also proud that, you know, I was able to see a missing hole in the market fill it and it to be successful. 00:04:01:09 - 00:04:24:23 Alison Huge congratulations. In your intro, you've shared two remarkable firsts, and I absolutely love the fact that you took charge. You saw an opportunity. You set a goal for yourself and you didn't wait for someone else to create the opportunity. You defined it, you pitched it and you were successful. So huge kudos to you. And it's easy to understand why you are as successful as you are. 00:04:24:23 - 00:04:27:10 Alison And I can only imagine what the future will bring. 00:04:27:12 - 00:04:28:23 Kayla Thank you. 00:04:29:00 - 00:04:51:01 Alison So part of that is building a strong personal brand. And that's certainly critical for success today in the marketing profession, in the sports and entertainment profession. And I would say in professions in every single industry. So I would love you to share how you've approached brand building when it comes to your own brand. And what advice do you have for others based on your success and learnings along the way? 00:04:51:03 - 00:05:15:04 Kayla Yeah, I think I've been very open about when I first came in because I was only at that time wanting to morph and mold myself into something that was way more malleable for an audience that wasn't used to seeing someone like me on their screen. And that backfired completely. It just totally took me out of my flow, how I usually talked, my spunk, my charisma. 00:05:15:06 - 00:05:52:08 Kayla And I just remember there just being a turning point for me when my grandma called me and was like, you're not even sounding like yourself. Like, who am I watching on the screen? And me having to strip that all away because that was my protection at the time and just go into work bare. Not saying like bare naked, but I mean bare as in, like who I truly was, owning my culture, owning, you know, that I say things a certain way, that I debate topics a certain way, and understanding that in order for me to show up as the best version of myself, I had to come as myself, which took a lot of vulnerability. 00:05:52:10 - 00:06:11:19 Kayla But it was to me something I think that helped to heighten me and my career. And also my platform was, people were getting someone that they felt were authentic. And, you know, to me, I was okay with people not liking who I was. And I was okay with people loving who I was. And you get a bit of both when you're, of course, in front of the camera. 00:06:12:00 - 00:06:34:19 Kayla But it was a non-negotiable for me early on to change who I was or how I did things, the things that I cared about and the causes that I spoke up on. And I think when you think about branding, one of the things that makes you resonate with an audience is being very clear about who you are and your humanity, your ethos, what you believe in. 00:06:35:01 - 00:06:56:23 Kayla And I think that that is the general theme and tie, because I can tell you, there's so many people that I've connected with on social media or at the arena or just, you know, out. And I don't think we would have conversations other than, you know, the fact that they say, recognize me or whatnot. Like, I just don't think that we would be in the same rooms as because of our upbringings, or lived experiences. 00:06:57:01 - 00:07:21:07 Kayla But what I will say is it shocked me is no, but we have something to talk about because we share values. We share a love of sport. There's so many common threads that I think that people miss between themselves and other people that are so easy to tap into. So, you know, when I was thinking about what my brand looked like, I think the first thing that I said was, it has to be real. 00:07:21:09 - 00:07:45:22 Kayla It has to feel good. It has to have integrity. And there was a very quick understanding that if all of those things were there, they would naturally come. An audience would come, my people would come, I would feel seen. And I think I've moved through different brand partnership deals, through different causes, initiatives that I've tried to take up, with the same kind of bar. 00:07:46:00 - 00:07:49:18 Kayla And I think that's allowed me to sleep good at night. 00:07:49:20 - 00:08:10:21 Alison That is such incredibly valuable learning. And the irony is you identified a missed opportunity. You identified the fact that there weren't diverse voices and pitched the network successfully on bringing a diverse voice. And then when you're in the seat, you try to conform. And I've been the first female a couple of times in my career. 00:08:10:21 - 00:08:11:11 Kayla Right. 00:08:11:12 - 00:08:28:00 Alison I fell victim to exactly the same thing. You get your seat at the table and then you try to conform instead of realizing this is going to be so much more powerful by not conforming and by stretching the perceptions and the expectations of the people around the table and ultimately the audiences you're trying to engage, so... 00:08:28:00 - 00:08:52:03 Kayla Yeah, and to be clear, like for yourself, I'm sure you know this. It's not easy. That is not easy work. That is actually the hardest route available to you. But the rewards are just so amazing. And then I think you also know this, that table that we fight so hard to sit at is actually not even made for us to be sitting there at all, nor to be successful at. 00:08:52:05 - 00:09:14:20 Kayla And so I think it's like out of necessity that we understand that, like we have to build new tables, we have to build new rooms, and that takes innovation, that takes awareness of self, that takes courage. And I think in order to succeed in any industry, courage has to be one of the things that you lean all the way into. 00:09:15:01 - 00:09:35:00 Alison And especially in this day and age, and you're a very public figure. People's BS meter, it has never been higher. So yeah, not being true to who we really are, people are going to legitimately call BS on us. They're going to disengage. We're not going to be credible. And when you embrace who you are, it has such an incredible impact. 00:09:35:00 - 00:09:37:10 Alison I also love the fact that your grandmother called you on it. 00:09:37:12 - 00:09:59:09 Kayla Yeah, my my grandmother was like, absolutely not. We're not representing the family this way. And it wasn't that I was doing a bad job. I think she just, she just knows me so well and she I think she also just knows, like, I cannot let you have 20 years in this industry doing this. And then at the end when you look back at your career being like, man, like I who was I, I was like a shell of myself. 00:09:59:11 - 00:10:23:19 Kayla And, you know, I'm very blessed that I, you know, it's it's a blessing and a curse. I came into the industry like, very young, like I was 19 when I first started interning with the Argos, 24 when I made my debut on Sportscentre. And 31 now. So, you know, as much as I was introduced to an audience, I was a completely different person back then. 00:10:23:19 - 00:10:48:21 Kayla I didn't have my son back then. Like I grew with an audience. And, you know, when you're someone that is growing and aging and maturing on a personal standpoint, that also takes form professionally, too. And so I had to get really comfortable with like, hey, I'm okay to change my mind on things. I'm okay to stand a little bit differently in my 30s than I did in my 20s. 00:10:48:21 - 00:11:01:05 Kayla And, you know, I think it's kind of this beautiful relationship that I've built with audience that they've kind of, in many ways seen me grow up and grow through phases. And that's been really special as well. 00:11:01:06 - 00:11:12:17 Alison Yeah. That's amazing. Well, you're also, your audience is growing with you and a huge benefit you're bringing to TSN is that younger audience and those voices that they haven't represented before. 00:11:12:19 - 00:11:30:07 Kayla Yeah. And I think that that was something that I really took on knowing that I might appeal to a different audience, but then also having the wherewithal and mindset, because at the end of the day, like it is a business, that this is going to be the audience that is going to be in the driver's seat when it comes to spending. 00:11:30:09 - 00:11:57:07 Kayla I know how I spend, I know how the economy affects my age group or me. And so, you know, when I come to the table of ideation for The Shift, I can drive those conversations with my lived experiences, and what I'm seeing, what I care about. And I think, you know, because TSN was started so long ago and had a different group of audiences, those values and things are a lot different. 00:11:57:09 - 00:12:20:12 Kayla I'm not saying that they don't matter. They still do matter. And, you know, when we think about a lot of the spending that still comes from that group. But I think as we're thinking about ways to integrate the new audience or the next generation, it is important to have that healthy balance. And so I add value that way of kind of being in the know, of like, okay, this is where we are going, this is the direction where we're going. 00:12:20:14 - 00:12:48:08 Kayla But I still take a lot from the older generation because there was just a level of integrity involved in the journalism. And that's what I grew up on was, you know, the, the strength of journalism, proper question asking. And I'll be honest, I think that that's kind of what's missing right now, with this influx of information. And so, you know, I think that every generation leaves behind a beautiful blueprint. 00:12:48:10 - 00:12:58:20 Kayla And we're doing the industry a misservice to not go back and reference, said blueprint. I'm not saying copy it, but to learn from it and to innovate that way. 00:12:58:22 - 00:13:10:19 Alison So looking forward, building on that, looking forward. How do you see the future of sports and entertainment evolving, especially from a storytelling and an audience engagement perspective? And then I want to hear what excites you most. 00:13:10:21 - 00:13:33:05 Kayla Yeah, and that's a great way to ask it, is what excites me, because I think in this world where there's so much change, the first thing that comes up is what scares us. And I think, you know, as you know, with budgets and all of the things, that fear stops us from trying new things or leaning into new directions in ways, and that's not going to be helpful. 00:13:33:10 - 00:13:55:20 Kayla I think what excites me is all these different platforms that are coming in and new ways of accessibility. That was the biggest thing for me coming up is, I was not able to see myself on camera and I had to, like, illegally stream ESPN feeds just to see like black women in that space and that boils down to accessibility. 00:13:56:01 - 00:14:20:22 Kayla So imagine now a younger audience, varying in gender, varying and sex, varying in beliefs, now has this like level of accessibility to seeing their stories being told. I think that that's what's exciting is now you can kind of reach people everywhere. I think where we're going is we're having that, but then now we're also seeing these streaming companies coming in. 00:14:21:03 - 00:14:52:16 Kayla Right? And that is something to be mindful of. But when we kind of really dissect from like an entertainment landscape of, okay, well, when we think about like the Netflixes of the world, the Amazons of the world, it's this vast library of content, but there's actually no meter of like what's deemed successful. You might be watching Gilmore Girls, I might be watching The Wire and those numbers can't compete with each other because they're completely different. 00:14:52:18 - 00:15:23:17 Kayla And so I think that that's the challenge, is figuring out the new bar of what is successful, what is that return of investment when we're talking about ideating and creating all of this content? And I think that's something the entire industry is shifting and trying to figure out right now is, is it truly quality over quantity, or are we going to revert back to the quantity model from in the past, where, you know, you had your TV, 28 channels, you got what you got. 00:15:23:17 - 00:15:50:02 Kayla Right? And so I think that we're in that kind of question mark, of where we're leaning. But again, I think what excites me is now we get to answer that for ourselves. And now audiences get to answer that for ourselves. I've never seen an era in which an audience can sway a network to hire people, fire people, change content, switch up how content is being shown. 00:15:50:04 - 00:16:04:19 Kayla It truly is this equal transaction and exchange between property and audience and I think in some ways that's going to help build a more collaborative front when it comes to the stories that we're telling. 00:16:04:21 - 00:16:17:14 Alison Great insights, and you're absolutely right that we have so many choices today and we're all really, really busy. So you do get overwhelmed by too much choice and you do want a curated option. 00:16:17:14 - 00:16:17:22 Kayla Yes. 00:16:17:22 - 00:16:24:03 Alison Where we go to like friends and family and apps to, to shorten the list. 00:16:24:05 - 00:16:42:06 Kayla You know, and they barely do. There's certain apps you go and it says top ten picks for you. And then it's because you watched this, another top ten picks. And because your mom watched this, here's ten picks. And it's just like, I think people just want something a little bit more custom. 00:16:42:08 - 00:16:44:12 Alison Like, yeah, it's definitely a work in progress. 00:16:44:12 - 00:16:45:14 Kayla Yes. 00:16:45:16 - 00:16:56:12 Alison So I'm going to switch gears a little bit. We are so looking forward to having you host the upcoming CMA Awards, and I would love to hear, what are you looking forward to about hosting and what do you hope to take away from the experience? 00:16:56:14 - 00:17:27:21 Kayla I think to me, storytelling is my purpose. Sharing stories, inviting vulnerability in people so they can find the confidence in that space as well is like my passion. And, you know, I think when people think about marketing and that realm, selling is the first thing that comes to mind. And to me it's seeing. Seeing is the first thing that comes to mind when it comes to marketing is, it's this like extension of saying to audience, I see you and this is for you. 00:17:27:23 - 00:18:02:11 Kayla And so to me, I'm really, really excited to be in a room full of people that can activate that feeling of being seen and just also see the unique ways of their storytelling, the unique ways of which they've been able to reach people, to allow people to feel in short and long segments. I think that we don't give people enough credit, when it comes to being able to touch people and different mediums and means, and so to just sort of be in that space, I'm really looking forward to it. 00:18:02:13 - 00:18:14:02 Alison I've had the pleasure of judging some of the awards. We've had more award entries this year than ever before, and ticket sales are on fire. So... 00:18:14:02 - 00:18:19:18 Kayla I love that. I love that! Like, you know what? People really want to be amongst each other these days. 00:18:19:20 - 00:18:39:17 Alison Absolutely. And you're going to be wowed by... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/33830182

EP30 - Redefining Brand Value with Peter Rodriguez and Bruce Symbalisty 10/22/2024

EP30 - Redefining Brand Value with Peter Rodriguez and Bruce Symbalisty Is the brand still relevant? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, sits down with two of the CMA's Brand Council members. Peter Rodriguez is the Founder and CMO of Brand Igniter Inc., and Bruce Symbalisty is the Chief Solutions Strategist at Reality Engine. Tune in for insights from Bruce, Peter and Alison as they discuss what a brand is, how it creates value, its relevance in today's marketplace, and how to effectively measure how it drives business results. [00:00:00] Narrator: Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA's CEO, Alison Simpson. [00:00:22] Alison Simpson: In today's episode, we will explore brand's critical role in driving business success. As the marketplace continues to evolve at an incredibly rapid pace, it's even more important than ever for marketers and for business leaders to truly understand the value of a strong brand. Joining me today are two industry experts and members of our CMA's brand council. [00:00:43] Alison Simpson: They bring unique perspectives on the power of branding, and this is promising to be a great conversation. Peter Rodriguez is the founder and CMO of Brand Igniter Inc. And Bruce Symbalisty is a chief solutions strategist at Reality Engine. Peter and Bruce will share their insights on how brands create value and also contribute to long term business growth. [00:01:02] Alison Simpson: Throughout our discussion today, we're going to tackle a whole host of questions and issues, starting with the question of brand relevance. In the light of the tsunami of change that's impacting our profession, how relevant are brands today? We're also going to discuss how marketers can effectively measure the impact of their brand building efforts. [00:01:21] Alison Simpson: Peter and Bruce will share their thoughts on the critical role of marketers in ensuring that brands are seen as mission critical to business success. And how they can help bridge the knowledge gap among executives by speaking the language of business. There's certainly some debate in the global marketing profession today, questioning whether brands are still relevant in today's marketplace. [00:01:41] Alison Simpson: So we'll tackle that in our discussion as well. It's clear that we have a lot to cover and two brand leaders with diverse opinions, which is sure to make for a great conversation. So welcome today, Peter [00:01:50] Peter Rodriguez: and Bruce. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here. It is also a pleasure to be here. [00:01:56] Alison Simpson: I want to kick things off brand, depending on your [00:02:00] background and your point of view can have surprisingly many, many different definitions. [00:02:05] Alison Simpson: So I'd love to have you each start by sharing how you define brand. How does a strong brand create value for a business? Peter, why don't you kick things off? [00:02:14] Peter Rodriguez: Of course. Thank you very much. And brands are incredibly valuable. And in my opinion, there are three pillars that define a brand. One, it's a promise. [00:02:23] Peter Rodriguez: Two, it's a shortcut. And three, it's an asset. It's a promise of consistent delivery, no matter what. Every time that you interact with the brand, it's a shortcut to understand value. Instead of having to repeat the attributes or benefits of a product, the brand does the shortcut so that we understand it, that we can create value. [00:02:46] Peter Rodriguez: And the last piece is probably the most important. It's an asset. It's an asset, not only because it can be seen on our. Statements, but because it creates value. It is the one thing that enables an organization to [00:03:00] create higher margins by virtue of offering a higher price point versus others. And that is an engine for financial performance. [00:03:10] Peter Rodriguez: So in the definition that best works for me. Those three pillars have become crucial in order to understand what the importance of this is for the economy, for companies, for us marketers. And the better we understand how to use this as an asset, we can create that value that our organizations pay us to create. [00:03:35] Peter Rodriguez: It is more than just the Concept about promotion. It is the asset that enables us to succeed as an organization. [00:03:44] Alison Simpson: That's a great definition, Peter. And Bruce, how would you define brand? [00:03:48] Bruce Symbalisty: Well, when we look at brand and it's actual, the word itself, Origins. It comes from the Norse, actually, and it means to burn. [00:03:59] Bruce Symbalisty: So then when [00:04:00] we look at kind of historically, what was it used for? I mean, we know that ranchers and cowboys branded cattle to identify it. And this is what's very important is when people saw that brand, they would know what that cattle livestock who it belonged to. And Also, when you saw that brand, you also knew whether that was a good person or bad person. [00:04:25] Bruce Symbalisty: So this is why a brand actually does the heavy lifting of an organization because the brand in and of itself makes a business memorable. It helps encourage customers to buy from you and it supports marketing and advertising. And it has a lot of extension through organizations to all its stakeholders. [00:04:47] Bruce Symbalisty: Holders internally and externally. [00:04:50] Alison Simpson: So I would love for you each to share an example of a brand that is known for really driving business impact. [00:04:59] Peter Rodriguez: [00:05:00] Well, I love to kick in with one example that continues to amaze me every time I talk about it. And, um, it's Apple. I continue to give them my money. Not because it's a better product, not because it's the better phone, but because the brand has captured what I want. [00:05:18] Peter Rodriguez: They understand exactly what I want and not what I need. And I think that this is a very important distinction. We try so hard to get people to buy the things that we think they need. When in reality, people buy and pay a premium for the things that they want. And usually those wants Are the source of this economic value that brands create the value that you perceive from Apple. [00:05:44] Peter Rodriguez: That's what you pay for. And I'd like to make this the key example. It's perceived value that separates brands. It's not product value. And one of the things that I'd like to share as part of the value that I perceive from Apple is the [00:06:00] simplification of technology. I am not a techie guy. I don't know much about it, but I know that if I have Apple on my side, They will take care of me. [00:06:08] Peter Rodriguez: I will call a human. We'll always answer. They will stay with me until I fix my problem. And that value is priceless. Will I throw in 2, 000 for a new phone? Yeah. Next time I will. And with a smile, I will be very happy to drop that money because of the value I perceive from them. Might not be the value of the product, but the perceived value is crucial. [00:06:29] Peter Rodriguez: So that to me is one of the many examples that I think that I, as a marketer can learn from, it's not the product. Okay. It never is. It's about the perceived value that we get from the brands. [00:06:41] Alison Simpson: That's a great example. And the fact that they can command such a premium and we're willing to pay it with a smile speaks volumes. [00:06:47] Alison Simpson: So Bruce, what would you add to that? [00:06:49] Bruce Symbalisty: Apple has invested a lot into their brand. Apple created the unboxing experience through brand and people created anticipation and love [00:07:00] for it. And so that's what I think is very exciting about how they, they have made changes by springboarding off of what their brand means. [00:07:10] Bruce Symbalisty: But, you know, if, when we look at other consumer brands, like I'll say Fenty cosmetics, they changed the world of cosmetics by introducing 40 shades of foundation in beauty for all. And in making, making it an inclusive product line, but interestingly enough, almost every other brand in the world now has followed suit and expanded their brands because of it, because it recognizes the consumer demand and value in individuality and a personal connection to their brand. [00:07:44] Alison Simpson: Those are both such powerful examples and examples of literally billion, in one case, trillion dollar businesses that brands have helped build. So with those sorts of success stories, it's a bit surprising for me that in today's rapidly evolving [00:08:00] marketplace, it's being questioned, are brands still relevant? [00:08:03] Alison Simpson: So two part question, why do you think the relevance of brands is being questioned today? And then let's answer the question, are brands today still relevant? [00:08:12] Bruce Symbalisty: We live in a world where the time to tell stories now is shorter, attention spans are shorter, and so the marketplace has become very quick to make judgments because the access to information through social media channels, internet and websites, people can collect, choose and determine whether they trust you. [00:08:35] Bruce Symbalisty: And so from a branding perspective, a brand needs to be strong, but people are questioning it because of the speed of the market is moving so quickly. Does a brand have time to take hold? Well, this is why it's even more important than ever to invest in brand. For that long term, long tail approach to an organization and a company. [00:08:59] Bruce Symbalisty: And [00:09:00] so that's why I think it is relevant, but it's being questioned because organizations want short term results. They want, uh, they have to answer their quarterly stakeholder reports and those kinds of things. And they just don't perceive it as a deep value item. And this is coming as a generalism. [00:09:19] Peter Rodriguez: I would add that one of the biggest challenges that we encounter is that, uh, in order to be relevant, we need to talk about what people care about. [00:09:29] Peter Rodriguez: CEOs and CFOs care about the business results, care about the balance sheet and the cashflow and the profit and loss statement. Our brands are the engine. Any brand, not only our brands, any brand is the engine that generates that. And it's not the top line sales only. That's where I think that we have missed the boat. [00:09:51] Peter Rodriguez: The conversation is not about creating volume at the top line. The biggest impact that marketing does is in creating that gross [00:10:00] margin. Gross margin is really when, when we start talking. And every time I have the opportunity to speak with CFOs or CEOs, the moment we start talking about margins, then the conversation becomes strategic. [00:10:12] Peter Rodriguez: It becomes, help me. Increase my margins. How can I make them accretive? If we bring forward recommendations as marketers that can do that, then we get the center of attention. As in many organizations, that's still the case, so I don't think we're gonna, we're losing relevance and maybe brands are losing relevance because they're spoken outside of that correlation, causation. [00:10:37] Peter Rodriguez: Between brand value in the minds of consumers, willingness to pay, and gross margins, which is what business leaders care about. [00:10:47] Bruce Symbalisty: There are branding leaders, and then there's a, I'm going to call it a mushy middle, where there's a lot of. Branding that is occurring, either me to branding or, uh, [00:11:00] uh, where it is not as advanced as a brand that has been invested in. [00:11:05] Bruce Symbalisty: And I think that that mushy middle has a lot of competition, a lot of confusion, and, uh, there, there's no leadership in that space. [00:11:16] Alison Simpson: And there's such opportunity in the mushy middle for someone to actually. apply good business and brand principles and really differentiate themselves. Now, Peter, you've spent a lot of your career in top tier global brands, a lot of time with the C suite, and also living by the rule of quarterly results are paramount. [00:11:36] Alison Simpson: So, you've got some great experience, and I'd love you to share how can marketers effectively measure the impact of Of brands on driving business results and what are the metrics that they should really be focused on? [00:11:49] Peter Rodriguez: That's a great question. I, um, to your point, that was one of the biggest debates that we always have in the C suite and my, what I've learned is [00:12:00] that the conversation. [00:12:02] Peter Rodriguez: Gets better when we start defining who is responsible for what, and I think that there is a big need to identify that the short term, the operating plan is mostly in the hands of sales for delivery, and it's not necessarily in the hands of marketing. It is, there is some level of that. Of impact. But the way that I have seen it happen in the companies where I've worked is that we need to create the environment so that the short term can happen. [00:12:36] Peter Rodriguez: So marketing creates the strategies that will help create this value that we can convert every year into profit in the measurement of ROI. Has shifted from measuring the overall marketing mix, which includes product development, research and development, pricing, and all of the mix that we control down to just the ROI on [00:13:00] campaigns. [00:13:00] Peter Rodriguez: And that should be in the tactical Area of the conversation. So I saw that and I still see today that when the conversation can be more clearly articulated in terms of, is this an operating thing that we're talking about for the quarter and we need to lap next year's quarter and make sure that we deliver growth. [00:13:21] Peter Rodriguez: That's a whole different conversation. Then do we create the environment so that next quarter, like, A year from now in two years from now, we have the assets that allow us to deliver those results. That is the realm of strategic marketing. And when we start talking about those things. In collaboration with sales, then it becomes a much more measurable thing. [00:13:47] Peter Rodriguez: So there are things that we are measuring that are not relevant. So for example, measuring only campaigns is limited, but for example, we're not measuring top of mind, share of mind, which is a [00:14:00] precursor of market share. Market share is one of the things that allows us to have longterm success. Those things. [00:14:06] Peter Rodriguez: Are in the realm of marketing, those things are usually not talked about as the metrics in the short term. For example, repurchase rates. How are we predisposing people versus last year to prefer this brand at a higher price? That is an indicator of success next quarter and next year's quarters and the change in customer lifetime value. [00:14:30] Peter Rodriguez: That is rarely talked about because those changes actually tell us if our marketing initiatives from product distribution, pricing, et cetera, are working. So, net net, I think that that conversation about incrementality. It's usually now outside of marketing. We don't get invited as many times. We are just like, well, here's your budget and make it happen. [00:14:55] Peter Rodriguez: And what I see, unfortunately, is that now when we [00:15:00] call performance marketing, marketing, it's not really marketing. It is sales with a Facebook account or with an internet access, because they're working on the short term. They have to deliver now, which is great. We provide the foundation so that people want to pay more. [00:15:18] Peter Rodriguez: Today, because we built that two years ago. And I think that that's a part that would benefit the conversations in the collaboration between sales and marketing. I clearly can see that in the operating plan and then marketing being primarily driving the strategic plan. [00:15:35] Alison Simpson: Now, Bruce, you and your role from an agency perspective have worked across very diverse brands, very diverse industries. [00:15:42] Alison Simpson: So I'd love you to share your thoughts on. What are the ways to effectively measure the impact of brands on driving business results? [00:15:50] Bruce Symbalisty: Within the, the brand space, there's many metrics to be able to kind of look at how well a brand is doing over time, both [00:16:00] short term and long term. But the flip side of this particular coin is then moving into things like all the organizational financial metrics, of course, and that profit margins and, and revenue growth and those kinds of things. [00:16:15] Bruce Symbalisty: And then aligning things that are customer acquisition costs. People often don't think about what happens. Let's say you're selling a very sophisticated product and it takes a year to encourage somebody to sell. If you were able to shorten that timeline to six months, that has a huge impact on an organization and brings customers in faster. [00:16:39] Bruce Symbalisty: And if a brand supports that. To the sales team, that's a powerful metric. So there's many others as well, but these kinds of metrics, I think, support the case for a brand working with other departments in an organization. [00:16:55] Alison Simpson: Now, Peter, earlier in our conversation, you shared your, part of your definition [00:17:00] of brand was it's a shortcut. [00:17:01] Alison Simpson: I would build on that and say a brand is also. Protects you against reputational risk. And certainly we've got examples from years ago with Tylenol, a Canadian example with make believe where there was a significant business issue that many companies never would have recovered from, but the power of their brand was a key. [00:17:22] Alison Simpson: Asset in their ability to recover. So do you want to share a little bit about that? [00:17:27] Peter Rodriguez: You mentioned Tylenol and that is very close to my heart. That's one of the brands that I've had the privilege of running. And I had the opportunity to learn the Credo, the Credo from J& J. Started to be even more relevant because of that horrible situation that they had to face in the eighties when someone tampered with the product and there was human impact to the worst of the worst kind. [00:17:55] Peter Rodriguez: But the one thing that I took away from learning the [00:18:00] creator is that what did the CEO do when things go bad and there is a need to leverage the brand value. To save a company. He went on live TV at that time. There was no social media. He immediately said, we're recalling everything. And then we're going to take action to make sure that you are safe. [00:18:20] Peter Rodriguez: So he took care of the brand first. He said, Tylenol is going to be out for a while. I don't know for how long, because we're recalling everything, but we will come back and we, your trust is the most important thing. And within a lightning speed period, they came back and they relaunched the brand and they recovered all of the market share and they became the top brand again. [00:18:44] Peter Rodriguez: And it was not the product. At the end of the day, the product, um, had to, you know, some safety measures had to be. Updated, but the value of the brand rested also on how people reacted. And that taught me [00:19:00] something. It is not what we sell. It's not what we say. It's how we say it. It's how we do it. And it's how the brand does things. [00:19:07] Peter Rodriguez: They said, this is how we're going to make it stand for you. This is how we're going to fix this. And this is how you're going to love it again. So I think that that level of. Commitment in understanding the value of branding from the highest levels of our organizations. Is something that will help not... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/33482192

EP29 - Building Brand Love for Lasting Consumer Connections with Justin Haberman 10/01/2024

EP29 - Building Brand Love for Lasting Consumer Connections with Justin Haberman Is brand love measurable magic or marketing myth? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson and Elemental's VP of Client Services, Justin Haberman, dissect the power of emotional connections in business. Discover why brand love matters, how to quantify it, and the touch points for fostering lasting consumer relationships. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:22 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. W ith your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:20:00 - 00:00:42:18 Alison Today's episode is all about brand love and building deep emotional connections between brands and the consumers in a very fast paced, results driven marketing landscape. And joining me today is Justin Haberman, who is the Vice President of Client Services at Elemental. He's also a member of our CMA Brand Council. Justin has a real passion for creating these lasting bonds between brands and their customers. 00:00:42:20 - 00:01:03:12 Alison Justin's also worked on both the brand and the agency side of the marketing. We share that in common, and he's run and managed PnLs for leading brands in highly competitive sectors. So he really understands the importance of brands delivering ROI as well. He also brings a wealth of knowledge and insights to the table. So I'm really looking forward to diving into this very important topic with him. 00:01:03:18 - 00:01:23:12 Alison And in the episode, we're going to dive into the concept of brand love. We're going to explore why it matters more than ever in today's marketing landscape and its role in building business. Justin will also share his thoughts on the difference between brand love and brand loyalty, and how marketers can effectively measure and quantify the impact of brand love on their business. 00:01:23:13 - 00:01:25:20 Alison Welcome, Justin. It's great to have you with us today. 00:01:25:22 - 00:01:30:06 Justin Thank you. What a great introduction. I am very excited to talk brand love today. 00:01:30:08 - 00:01:38:02 Alison Well, let's dive right in. I want to start by having you define brand love, and how in your mind it differs from brand loyalty. 00:01:38:04 - 00:01:57:15 Justin So yeah, I think it's a good question because at one point in time, you know, loyalty and love were one and the same. And they both measured brand loyalty. But nowadays, as we've, you know, started innovating the way we can measure loyalty, there's been a divide where loyalty can be more of a purchase loyalty or behavioural loyalty. 00:01:57:15 - 00:02:07:00 Justin And those are things that we can easily measure, where brand love is more of an attitudinal loyalty, and it's a deeper emotional connection to one's brand. 00:02:07:01 - 00:02:36:03 Alison I think that's a such a great observation, when I also think about loyalty versus brand love. There are brands like Ferrari that many people have great affection for, and brand love for doesn't necessarily translate to purchase affinity. And then there are other brands where loyalty can be incentives through different loyalty programs. So that's a different kind of loyalty that probably comes with affection, but doesn't necessarily have to come with brand love. 00:02:36:05 - 00:03:05:08 Justin Well, exactly. And, you know, there are things like you mentioned that can be incentivized. And some of those things can actually take us down the wrong path, because, you know, one may be loyal to a brand because of a promotion or convenience or even proximity, but those aren't necessarily true measurements of brand love or brand loyalty. You know, a good example that I like to give is an analogy of how I choose my barber. 00:03:05:13 - 00:03:25:05 Justin Right? So I've been going to the same barber for the last year, and it's not necessarily because I'm extremely loyal to him. You know, if he were to move a city away, I wouldn't follow him. I go to this barber time and time again because it's easy for me. It's right down the street. And, you know, for something like a haircut, I don't want it to take up too much in my day. 00:03:25:06 - 00:03:42:01 Justin So if you looked at the metrics that are available, engagement or purchase, you're going to see, wow, Justin's really loyal to his barber, but it, on the other end of it I'm really not. And so I think there is a false measurement that a lot of marketers lean on, which can get us into trouble. 00:03:42:03 - 00:04:00:06 Alison I love your barber example because based on your description, which I think is a very astute one, I actually do have brand love for my stylist because I moved and now it's a, instead of being a ten minute commute, it's a 40 minute commute. Yet they still have my business. So it's such a great example of the difference between loyalty and brand love, for sure. 00:04:00:07 - 00:04:13:12 Alison So why do you believe that focusing on building brand love and emotional connections with consumers is the greatest opportunity for marketers, especially when we're in a world very much focused on short term results and sales numbers? 00:04:13:14 - 00:04:34:06 Justin Right. Yeah, and it's a discussion that I have quite a bit. I mean, it's really easy when you need to answer to shareholders or managing your PnL. It's really easy to look to the short term results. You know, how do I hit my numbers this quarter? Unfortunately, you know, when you start taking that approach, it's this never-ending race to chase sales. 00:04:34:06 - 00:04:56:13 Justin And it can be very reactionary. And so the value that comes from building a brand or focusing on brand love is it's a little bit of like a cheat code or a shortcut for driving future sales. And I really encourage marketers to take that approach and be a little bit more proactive in how they invest in that approach. 00:04:56:14 - 00:05:17:05 Justin So, you know, another analogy or example I'll give is, you know, why do we put away money for retirement? It's really easy to spend money on the things we need or want right now, but we invest in a retirement fund to make our lives easier in the future. And that is kind of how I would encourage a lot of marketers to look at brand building efforts. 00:05:17:06 - 00:05:41:18 Justin It's making our future lives easier, more profitable. It's going to be a lot easier to obtain new clients or new customers and retain new clients and customers. So there's a lot of value that comes from that. And on top of that, I think a lot of people these days, especially the younger generation, they really want to love a brand and they really want love to be returned back to them 00:05:41:18 - 00:05:45:15 Justin if they're going to invest that time and effort into a brand. 00:05:45:17 - 00:06:18:22 Alison So I've been in the CMO seat in very competitive sectors before, so I've felt the heat firsthand. I'm a big, big proponent and believer in the power of brand. I've also faced the pressure of quarterly monthly sales results and delivering results, so it's always helpful to have proven examples or any starts too, that our listeners can leverage with some of their maybe skeptical colleagues or with the executive suite to really help validate why investing in brand is so important. 00:06:18:23 - 00:06:24:00 Alison If you have any cases or stats that you could share, that would be, I know our listeners would love to get their hands on it. 00:06:24:02 - 00:06:53:09 Justin Yeah, of course. I mean, I've looked at a few different stats over the years. One that jumps out is close to 90% of consumers are prepared to love a brand, and they want that type of relationship with their brand. That's a huge number that speaks volumes to how we need to build and foster those types of relationships. You know, a lot of people are investing, like I mentioned before, time, money, etc. and they want to do it for brands that live up to their values, share the same beliefs. 00:06:53:11 - 00:07:16:08 Justin So that's one that comes to mind. Another one is probably on the more you know, profitable side. When you invest in a brand, it's a lot easier to make more money. And you know, we see that with some numbers that I've come across in terms of, you know, it's a, it's seven times easier to sell to an existing customer than to try and sell to a new customer. 00:07:16:10 - 00:07:18:11 Justin So those are just a couple that pop out. 00:07:18:12 - 00:07:28:15 Alison So you've compared building brand love to building interpersonal relationships. And I think that's a very apt analogy. Can you elaborate a bit on the analogy and also share some of the different stages involved? 00:07:28:17 - 00:07:49:21 Justin Yeah, I'm glad you called that out because, you know, when we talk brand building, it's one thing to get people on board with the value of it, but then it's another thing to try to explain how do you achieve it? There's a lot that goes into building brand love, and I think because of that, a lot of people are hesitant or scared to dive into it. 00:07:49:21 - 00:08:18:04 Justin And so, like you mentioned, the the analogy to building interpersonal love is a good way to remind people how easy it can be. We're all experts at it already. It doesn't have to be this daunting task. We've all, you know, dated, we've all fallen in love with someone. Well, at least most people have. And so, you know, if you start looking into how that relationship evolves, you can translate that into some of the things you need to do as a brand. 00:08:18:06 - 00:08:41:07 Justin Simon Sinek, marketing guru, author. He talks about how to grow love and I really liked his explanation of how to do that. He talked about how love doesn't happen overnight. It's not a moment in time, you know, you don't love your husband or wife or significant other because of one giant thing they did. It's a lot of little things that add up over time that people remember. 00:08:41:07 - 00:09:05:18 Justin And that's what, you know, creates love in these relationships. So I really encourage a lot of brand marketers to look at their brand-building efforts in a similar way. You know, look at all the touch points and where you can build love over time and comparing it to how love grows, you know, from a personal standpoint. You start by dating someone before you get married. 00:09:06:00 - 00:09:32:02 Justin And there's kind of three stages of love. There's the initial passion, lust phase. And this is where you're trying to, you know, create an attraction with someone. And from a brand perspective, this is where you want to get them excited about your brand. Promote trial. Get them to try it for the first time. And then you move to this intimacy stage where it's all about closeness and connectivity and building that relationship. 00:09:32:07 - 00:10:01:15 Justin And from a brand perspective, you know, this is where you start looking at usage frequency, getting people to break routines, get them to adopt you in their everyday lives. And only once those two things have happened can you start moving to the decision or commitment phase. You know, from a personal standpoint, this is maybe the big marriage proposal, but from a brand perspective, this is when brand love really happens and when people are truly loyal to you or a product or a brand that you're promoting. 00:10:01:17 - 00:10:21:13 Alison Building on the analogy, sadly, one in two marriages ends in divorce, and brands also can run the risk of their consumers divorcing them. So what can be done to help prevent divorce or losing that connection and that level of love from your audience and consumers, once you have it. 00:10:21:15 - 00:10:47:06 Justin Right, it can come and go pretty quickly. And so I think to prevent any kind of divorce or disengagement, you need to remember that this is a never-ending job. Just because you won someone as a customer or just because you got married to them, it doesn't mean that the job is over. In my opinion, that's the moment where the job is just beginning, and that's where we need to focus more of our efforts, right? 00:10:47:06 - 00:11:06:22 Justin You need to continually keep people guessing, coming out with new things, finding new ways to exchange ideas. All of that comes in really handy with keeping people connected and engaged. And I think that's why, like, social media has gained so much popularity, because it is a way to do exactly that. 00:11:07:00 - 00:11:14:02 Alison So is brand love feasible for all products? And especially when I think about ones that are much more commoditized and mass? 00:11:14:04 - 00:11:49:05 Justin I would say for sure. There's a reason why entire industries have been built on brand love. You know, I look at the streetwear industry and how brands like Supreme can sell a plain white t-shirt for 80, 100, multiple hundred dollars. It's because of the brand they've been able to build. You know, you also look at examples like No Frills, which is a value brand, private label brand that typically or traditionally has never had a huge emotional connection with it. 00:11:49:06 - 00:12:10:17 Justin They've been able to do a great job. And kudos to the marketers on on that team for building a relationship with their audience. You know, they were able to look at some universal truths that existed of how people looked at private label brands and kind of spin it on their head and, and take ownership of how people like to shop and, and how people can feel proud about finding a deal. 00:12:10:17 - 00:12:18:06 Justin And, and that's just another example of, you know, I think every product, every service, can have a brand. 00:12:18:08 - 00:12:33:04 Alison Those are great examples, Justin. So it's obviously important for marketing to demonstrate business impact. And that can also be more challenging for brand marketing. So what are your thoughts on measuring the ROI of brand-building efforts, and what metrics or tools would you recommend? 00:12:33:06 - 00:12:58:12 Justin It's a very, very tough one, for sure, because everyone wants to find that return on investment, and with something like brand-building, it can be more difficult, but there's places to look right. Things like attitudinal surveys are a great way to to measure it. Things like reputation quotients that go into really understanding, like the emotional quality of an experience and not just surface level things. 00:12:58:12 - 00:13:25:07 Justin So I urge people not to get caught up in some other measurements, like engagement or retention, because like we mentioned before, it can be a little misleading. But to elaborate on on this, I also think, there's two other points that I want to mention. One is, I think it really comes down to who you're speaking to. You know, we as marketers, we're also salespeople, and we need to figure out how to talk about things in a way that resonates with our audience. 00:13:25:07 - 00:13:47:15 Justin And so if you're talking to a CFO, your answer may be a little different than if you're talking to, you know, a marketing director. I'm just picking positions, but you really need to talk about things in a way that is going to matter to the people you're talking to. So an example of that would be if I was talking to a CFO, I was talking to someone who really cared about the numbers. 00:13:47:17 - 00:14:10:04 Justin I would start trying to connect the dots and what my brand building efforts could do. So, you know, if I can drive future demand and I can measure that through unaided awareness, I maybe can then link it to, well, if people have a higher unaided awareness, what's their cost per acquisition? And does that start going down because they're now further down the funnel? 00:14:10:04 - 00:14:35:11 Justin And if their cost per acquisition goes down, does that mean that they have a higher consumer lifetime value? I'm just throwing out measurements right now, but looking at different metrics along a full path can be a way to answer that for someone who's very number-driven. Whereas on the flip side, the other way to look at it is to spin it on its head and kind of remind people of why they make certain purchases. 00:14:35:13 - 00:14:57:01 Justin You know, why have you made certain decisions? Why have you chosen one product or one brand over another? And once you start relating it back to people's personal experiences there, there is a light bulb switch moment where they realize, well, actually, brands do have an effort. And even though I may not be able to measure the way I want to measure it, it still matters. 00:14:57:03 - 00:15:26:12 Alison There is skepticism around why brands important, and it's it's still too often thought of as, if you have money left over invest in brand, which is completely backwards thinking. But when you're working on monthly sales reports, when you're reporting to a board on a quarterly basis, showing quarterly results becomes your Kryptonite in many ways. So and if you layer on top of that, a tough economy, the brand budget can be one of the first things that gets cut. 00:15:26:14 - 00:15:39:19 Alison So the power in your example with Supreme and No Frills was given to very easy to understand examples of how they have defended their business and profited by investing in brand. 00:15:39:21 - 00:16:05:06 Justin I mean, a couple other brands that come to mind, with one that jumps out is something like Heinz and their their efforts in building brand and the amount of money they put behind their brand-building efforts. You know, I think of the one campaign that was Draw Ketchup. I forget if that's the exact title of the campaign, but when, you know, they went to market and asked people to draw ketchup, the first thing people drew was a Heinz bottle. 00:16:05:08 - 00:16:33:02 Justin And that just shows the power of brand-building and how it can help elicit a deep-rooted connection with people that doesn't leave their mind. And it keeps the brand top of mind. And when the brand's top of mind, they walk into a store and the first thing they see is something that's recognizable, like a Heinz ketchup bottle, they're going to go grab that off shelf versus having to put in the time to do more research to educate themselves on the qualities of different ketchup bottles. 00:16:33:04 - 00:16:41:08 Justin Like I mentioned before, it's just, it's a shortcut moment that makes selling much, much easier and much cheaper. 00:16:41:10 - 00:16:58:15 Alison That's a great example. And the other Heinz campaign that I love, that was really built on a universal truth, is that behind the back-of-the-house, in a restaurant. You see people with Heinz bottles filling it with generic ketchup. And I waitressed my way through school to pay my own way. And we actually did that. 00:16:58:20 - 00:17:15:07 Alison And then you would take out to the table, and there were customers that absolutely knew when they turned over that Heinz bottle, if the ketchup was coming out too fast, it wasn't the real thing. And they called us on it. So that's such a powerful example of why brands are important and how it does ultimately drive strong business results as well. 00:17:15:07 - 00:17:17:22 Alison And that's also a great example of brand love. 00:17:18:00 - 00:17:44:06 Justin Exactly. I mean, another example that comes to mind is the Pepsi versus Coke battle. And it's been going on for years and years and years. But there are some very strong, loyal Coca-Cola drinkers that wouldn't be caught dead drinking a Pepsi, but all of a sudden Pepsi launches the Pepsi Taste Challenge and they do a blind tasting and they get people to decide what is actually their preferred flavour of cola. 00:17:44:08 - 00:17:59:19 Justin And, you know, they ended up going with Pepsi. And that's an example that shows that, you know, a loyal customer... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/33222562

EP28 - Driving Marketing Innovation Through AI with Dave Burnett 09/17/2024

EP28 - Driving Marketing Innovation Through AI with Dave Burnett In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CMA's CEO, and Dave Burnett, CEO of AOK Marketing, delve into the rise of generative AI and its transformative effect on B2B marketing. The discussion touches on the importance of complying with company guidelines, the rapid advancement of AI tools, and how maintaining a curious mindset is essential for marketers to stay ahead in an ever-evolving industry. 00;00;00;01 - 00;00;20;04 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00;00;20;06 - 00;00;45;16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of AI and its transformative impact on B2B marketing. I'm joined today by Dave Burnett, the founder and CEO of AOK Marketing, a conversion-focused digital agency. Dave's also a board member for EO, the entrepreneur's organization. Dave definitely qualifies as an early adopter and thought leader in the AI space. He's been part of OpenAI's beta testing since 2019. 00;00;45;18 - 00;01;14;09 Alison He also teaches two of our CMA Gen AI training courses and brings a wealth of experience and insights to the table today. Throughout, our conversation will follow Dave's personal journey with AI from his days as an early tester with OpenAI to now using AI tools in his everyday work. He'll share the story of his a-ha moment when ChatGPT, a conversational AI tool, dramatically impacted his business and how he chose to embrace the technology and adapt to strategies in response. 00;01;14;11 - 00;01;45;19 Alison As we explore the unique use cases and opportunities for AI in the B2B space, Dave is going to provide some great examples of how companies of different sizes are building AI-powered solutions. We'll also discuss the caution and hesitation often present at the executive level. So for marketers who may be a bit intimidated or reluctant to start experimenting with AI, Dave also offers practical advice on getting started on treating AI models like highly-educated new employees, and helpful tips for how to interact with these tools to get the best results. 00;01;45;22 - 00;01;48;23 Alison Welcome, Dave. I'm thrilled to have you joining me today. 00;01;48;25 - 00;01;53;16 Dave Thanks so much Alison, and I really appreciate the invite. And yeah, I'm excited about our conversation today. 00;01;53;23 - 00;02;05;24 Alison Me too. So let's start by having you walk us through your personal journey from AI, from being an early beta tester with OpenAI to now using Gen AI tools in your everyday work. 00;02;05;26 - 00;02;27;06 Dave So I actually found out about OpenAI a long time ago, back when Elon Musk was founding it. And I thought, hey, this is a really interesting thing. So I signed up to be an early beta tester. And just for clarity, I am not in any way technical. I'm a marketer. I'm not one of those technical marketers, really, who gets deep down into programming. 00;02;27;08 - 00;02;47;19 Dave So this was just something that was an interest of mine back in the day. And so OpenAI came out. I got accepted into the beta program. Obviously they had low bar, a low bar back at that point. And when I got accepted in, it was really exciting for me. And they had already launched a couple of language models, so ChatGPT clawed a bunch of these, 00;02;47;19 - 00;03;08;17 Dave others are all large language models. And when people are talking about AI, they can talk about a and a bunch of different ways. But the most common and prevalent way that people are thinking about it today is as a large language model. So the first language model they came out with was called Ada, Ada. And then the second one they came out was called Babbage. 00;03;08;17 - 00;03;24;09 Dave And the third one that came out with was called Curie. So you'll notice the A, B, C. And then they came out with DaVinci. And as I was going through all these, I mean, they were terrible. You know, they couldn't do anything. You're in there playing around and you know, it just okay, this doesn't do what I want it to do. 00;03;24;09 - 00;03;47;19 Dave And all of a sudden, OpenAI launched ChatGPT, and it was exponentially better than anything else that we've seen in the world. So what I realized in that in that timeline was this is a tool I can use. But the problem was everybody else realized it was a tool they could use, too. And so one of the things that we do as a digital agency is content. 00;03;47;21 - 00;04;09;09 Dave And all of a sudden, so it was released the end of November, ChatGPT. By the end of January, we lost all of our content clients. So we lost, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of revenue, because of this tool. So that was my a-ha moment. The less polite word is the holy crap, you know. 00;04;09;10 - 00;04;28;22 Dave Oh my goodness moment. And as a result of that, I had to learn. I had to adapt. So I spent two weeks in February, right after it had been released, three months after it had been ChatGPT had been released just trying to get up fully up to speed because I was, you know, dabbling, I was dipping my toe in. 00;04;28;24 - 00;04;49;10 Dave And then I realized, all right, I'm now caught up. You know, I literally spent two weeks, I'm now caught up. And then in early March, of course, they released, GPT four. So it was a whole other exponential leap forward. But I had a foundation. What I realized is that everybody's on a bit of a journey when it comes to AI. 00;04;49;12 - 00;05;10;25 Dave So the stages of the AI adoption framework are fear, skepticism, holy crap, investigation, adoption and mastery. And everybody kind of goes through those, I've found. If you can see where your people or yourself are on this curve, you know what the next logical step is. And I love talking to the skeptics who are like, it's not that good. 00;05;10;29 - 00;05;24;29 Dave It's not going to get there. I'm like, okay, well, you just haven't had your holy shit moment yet. You know, it's something's going to have to do that for you. And once you do, then we'll have another conversation that'll be a different conversation. So hopefully that helps a little bit with the background of where I got to back then. 00;05;25;04 - 00;05;45;27 Alison It's it's a great story. And there is there's negative moments and there's positive. Wow, I finally figured out why everyone's so excited about this. You obviously had the more negative side and I can't imagine literally overnight a significant portion of your business vanishing. So I definitely want to talk a bit more about that. The other piece that I want to talk about, 00;05;46;04 - 00;06;08;15 Alison so in your journey, you very much were an early adopter. You weren't technical. So that gives all of the marketers listening who don't come from a technical background, comfort that you don't need to be technical. Even in the very early days of the beta testing you were doing with OpenAI. The piece you're not giving yourself credit for that I think is mission critical for everyone's journey is curiosity. 00;06;08;17 - 00;06;33;02 Alison Because if you weren't curious enough and open-minded enough to raise your hand and join the beta in 2019 for something that really none of us knew, understood, and certainly didn't at that point understand the potential of. So I think that's a really important part of the journey, where you're probably being a bit too much of a humble Canadian by not giving yourself the credit for that open-mindedness and curiosity and for everyone listening. 00;06;33;02 - 00;06;43;12 Alison I think those are such important elements, not just for being successful with new tools like Men AI, but for a successful career in marketing. 00;06;43;14 - 00;07;11;19 Dave No, I agree. Curiosity is a massive thing. I've always been curious. I'm always interested in what's new, what's coming, what's next? How can I do this? Because, to completely date myself. I graduated university before Google was invented. So the fact that I now own a digital conversion focused digital marketing agency, that's SEO. And, you know, like everything digital, it required a learning curve. 00;07;11;22 - 00;07;38;16 Dave You know, I mean, I remember Google launching. I remember, you know, when they bought what's now AdWords or Google Ads. I remember all those different things. And so seeing these things and realizing that I have to keep on top of them and doing my best to keep on top of these things is just what you have to do in order to be able to survive, because I don't know what's going to come out next week, next month, next year, and so it's all it's all exciting and to be honest, keeps it interesting. 00;07;38;21 - 00;07;51;09 Alison Absolutely agree. So after you did hit that brick wall that Get AI created in your content business, how did you pivot and where does your business stand now with leveraging Gen AI. 00;07;51;11 - 00;08;12;11 Dave So I use it every day. And so it's a tool. I look at it as say for example, you were a you were an author or writer. You would have Word open or Google Docs. Whatever you use as a marketer, you might have Canva open or Illustrator or whatever you might use if you're a on the design side or Figma or whatever tool that it is that you use in your, in your work. 00;08;12;13 - 00;08;43;23 Dave And so I've incorporated it into my work and it's just made me, me personally, exponentially more efficient. I can do the same amount of work in an hour that I used to do in an entire day, maybe multiple days. You know, a lot of my work, it tends to be on the, strategy side. It tends to be on the, you know, proposals and talking to people and understanding and taking giant amounts of information and condensing them down into information that people can understand. 00;08;43;23 - 00;09;12;19 Dave Because parts of SEO, parts of Google Ads, parts of conversion rate optimization can be very technical. It's really being able to say, look, you know, if you for content generation, for example, do stuff and then talk about the great stuff you've done, that's one element of it. But where AI comes into it is AI is great for doing foundational content, baseline content, you know, for example, in a promotional products business, what is embroidery? 00;09;12;23 - 00;09;34;28 Dave What is screen printing? You know, what is a t shirt made of? Like all those every business has its foundational content that you need. So how I'm using it today, I mentioned that I've got multiple tabs open, but it also is great for, you know, consolidating all those things and getting getting a good read on what's going on with those. 00;09;35;01 - 00;09;59;07 Dave So just to put it in a better example, if, for example, a news piece comes out around Google and for example, Google had an algorithm leak and their algorithm leak was highly technical, it was literally the way you could program into Google how how the search engine works. So I took that information. Not being a technical guy took all that information. 00;09;59;07 - 00;10;23;28 Dave I knew enough how to create a text document from it, put that into Google. And, you know, and I tried to figure out what it was, didn't know. So I then took that text document and put it into ChatGPT and said, what does this mean from an SEO perspective? And it spit out these five things. You know, technically you need to do this, local SEO, you need to do this, like all these different metrics and all these different instructions. 00;10;24;04 - 00;10;43;22 Dave And then I was able to dig down and dig down and dig down and then take that and actually apply it in my business and apply it for our clients. So it really is a great tool to be able to take massive amounts of information and make it, you know, dumb it down for me, just quite honestly. So yeah, it's a fun way to use it. 00;10;43;22 - 00;11;07;28 Alison We talk so much around the creative uses of ChatGPT, and certainly it's a tool that way as well. But you broadened it to a more, it's also very powerful from a strategic perspective, from a planning perspective in running a business. It's also an incredible efficiency play. So beyond the marketing capabilities and ways that ChatGPT can enable us in running a business and in managing a team, it can also be incredibly powerful. 00;11;07;28 - 00;11;11;08 Alison So I appreciate you sharing some of those examples for sure. 00;11;11;10 - 00;11;28;28 Dave Yeah. And it's one of those things where you have a choice to make once you start to use these tools, you know, ChatGPT being primary and one of them, you are going to get so much more efficient. You're gonna have a choice, you know, do I spend my time doing eight times more stuff? You know, if I can do in one hour what used to take me eight hours? 00;11;29;00 - 00;11;43;27 Dave Or do I do one hour's worth of work and go to Myrtle Beach or something? You know, I, you know, whatever, whatever it may be, you know, so it's it's really a choice you're going to have to make. And I think those people who embrace this as something that says, okay, this is a this is kind of jet fuel. 00;11;44;00 - 00;12;02;06 Dave I can go from, you know, just a biplane or, you know, a paper airplane to being on a jet. And this is how fast I can move. This is how much information I can do. This is how, how, how, how, how I can outcompete. It's really a tool that you should use, for sure. 00;12;02;08 - 00;12;16;18 Alison Now, Dave, in the B2B space, I'd love you to share some unique use cases and opportunities that you're seeing for leveraging Gen AI, and also to share if it varies, based on the company size or the industry that, the brands and marketers are part of. 00;12;16;21 - 00;12;41;27 Dave Absolutely. I mean, it all depends. So starting at the enterprise level, there are often rules that individuals have that they have to adhere to. You know, I know in some organizations you can't access anything on your local server or from your, your intranet or from your IP address that ends in dot AI. There are a lot of considerations you have to take into account the security side of things. 00;12;41;27 - 00;12;59;07 Dave You have to take into account what data you're putting into, and you know how you can adopt. So as a as a marketer who's looking to early adopter, you know, adopt these types of things, you are going to have to figure out what works for your organization. That's first and foremost, because you do not want to compromise any data. 00;12;59;07 - 00;13;15;10 Dave You do not want to compromise any information. You want to make sure that you are following the rules that are set, and the rules are there for a reason. Now, if you're in a small or medium sized business, well, it's kind of the wild, wild West, right? You can just go for it and do whatever you want. So ignore everything I just said. 00;13;15;10 - 00;13;35;21 Dave No, I'm just kidding. You still need to adhere to those things. So from a small to medium size, what I'm finding is people are tend to be plugging in to some of these public models. So they're, they're paying for paid subscriptions or they're doing things where they kind of have their own information. And then you know, separating it out. 00;13;35;21 - 00;13;58;17 Dave So they've got their own information, but are kind of reaching out to these public models to then, you know, power it basically. So they're trying to create these walled gardens that aren't quite as walled off, I don't know, chain link fence instead of walls? So as a result of that they they're able to use the, as the models get better and better and they're able to have their own data referencing. 00;13;58;20 - 00;14;27;09 Dave So and then the small businesses, I mean, they're just they're just accessing, giving stuff away and doing all that kind of stuff. So when I say giving stuff away, what I mean is a lot of these models are trained off of your data. So if you upload a client proposal into ChatGPT without putting any of the safeties on or anything like that, technically that information becomes part of the training model for ChatGPT to train others so other people could utilize that. 00;14;27;09 - 00;14;57;00 Dave And I, I mean, do you have a lot to worry about? Probably not, if you're, but I you got to be careful. Talk to your lawyer. I just, you know I know this is going to go a broadcast if you're going to share any information, but at the same time, you know, you can, just understand that if you make the data anonymous and just take out the client's name and just be - a digital marketing agency is creating a proposal for a landscaping company. 00;14;57;02 - 00;15;22;00 Dave And this landscaping company is, you know, needs X, Y, and Z, zed, x, y, and zed things. And, you know, it's just it's really something that's that you can use. Just don't be so specific. So I'm seeing people use these really varies based on their organization size and then what they're trying to do with it. I mean, I've been in meetings where people are still head in the sand. 00;15;22;00 - 00;15;40;11 Dave This is really something that I'm very afraid of. You know, they're on that that spectrum in terms of the, the framework. And I think they're, we're all going to potentially move forward through the framework. But, you know, depending on where they are and who they work for, I, I'm seeing a lot of different things with how they're using it. 00;15;40;13 - 00;16;04;19 Alison And if, if they're in a highly regulated industry or as you call it, a large organization where there are those limitations, and I would still encourage marketers to start experimenting with Gen AI in their personal life, on their personal computers, because it's not going to get easier to to learn. It's not going to get any less intimidating. So the longer that they're waiting, the harder it will be to catch up. 00;16;04;19 - 00;16;15;17 Alison And it's also a missed opportunity, like when you call out that you can now in an hour, do something, enough work that formerly took you a day, like, we all want to benefit from that as well. 00;16;15;19 - 00;16;50;00 Dave Absolutely. And I think it's it's really important to for people to experiment, as you were saying, no matter what organization size that they're in, because the more you play with these tools, the the better you'll get. So from my perspective, it makes the most sense to think about these AI tools as a newly-graduated, newly-minted MBA student who is highly, highly knowledgeable, super, super highly knowledgeable, and yet they know nothing about you and they know nothing about what you want from them. 00;16;50;00 - 00;17;14;04 Dave So just like a new hire, new employee, you know, they're excited. Well, I mean, the machine's not necessarily excited, but they're excited to to learn and to do and to give you the right answer. But they need to know some context. So it's really important to start off with, all right, when you're when you're entering any information into this and we'll just focus on the large language models like ChatGPT. 00;17;14;07 - 00;17;41;03 Dave Just, you know, you are a, or whatever you want that particular model to be. So for example, you are a proposal writer and and then that frames the the rest of the input and what you're going to give instructions as that. So depending on how you're using the tool you really got to frame it first. So you are a, and then tell it what it is and then go and say, okay, here's some research, here's some information. 00;17;41;05 - 00;18;01;29 Dave And if you really want to kind of go next-level with it, you can say, here is the type of an answer that I really like. Write me an answer like that. So for example, if you were using it to write a resume, I don't know, say you wanted to switch jobs, you could put an ad, you can upload a... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32990697

EP27 - Integrating AI in Non-Profit Marketing with Allen Davidov and Kelly Hardy 09/03/2024

EP27 - Integrating AI in Non-Profit Marketing with Allen Davidov and Kelly Hardy In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with two members of the CMA's Not-For-Profit Council, Allen Davidov, Senior Vice President, Sales Practice & Marketing Leader, Environics Analytics and Kelly Hardy, Vice President, Marketing & Communications, YMCA Canada. They explore the unique opportunities and challenges of leveraging AI in non-profit marketing, discuss strategies for preparing for the AI-driven future, and share valuable advice for marketers looking to embrace this transformative technology. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:08 Announcer Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, KMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:10 - 00:00:46:01 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into the world of charities and not for profit organizations to discuss how they can leverage the transformative potential of generative AI as the marketing landscape continues to rapidly evolve. Charities and not for profits, can often find themselves facing some pretty unique challenges when it comes to adopting cutting edge technologies like Gen I. With limited resources and a focus on mission driven work. 00:00:46:03 - 00:01:08:07 Alison How can these organizations harness the power of AI to amplify their impact and drive success? To help us navigate this meaty topic, I'm joined by two members of the CMAs not for profit council, Kelly Harding, as the vice president, marketing communications for YMCA Canada, and Allen Davidoff as senior vice president, sales practice and marketing leader, and Varonis analytics. 00:01:08:09 - 00:01:40:14 Alison Both Kelly and Allen bring deep marketing and leadership expertise. They've also held senior roles in nonprofits, and their first hand experience makes them perfectly suited to discuss how charities and not for profits can explore and implement new technologies like not. They'll share some of the ways they're doing this, along with some valuable lessons learned throughout our conversation. Today, we'll explore the various ways in which Gen AI can help nonprofits scale their marketing efforts everything from automating mundane tasks to enhancing content creation and volunteer work. 00:01:40:16 - 00:01:51:16 Alison We'll also discuss the importance of upskilling teams, developing AI policies, and addressing concerns around authenticity and transparency. Welcome, Kelly and Allen. It's really great to have you both here today. 00:01:51:18 - 00:01:52:21 Allen Thank you for having me. 00:01:52:22 - 00:01:53:21 Kelly Thank you. 00:01:53:23 - 00:02:13:14 Alison Now, I'd like to kick things off with the question. And, Kelly, I'll get you to take the lead on this one. As marketers with experience and not for profits. What role do you see Gen AI playing now? What have been your early experiences in leveraging it? I'd also like to hear what advice you would give to those who might be a little bit reluctant to start using AI. 00:02:13:16 - 00:02:45:14 Kelly So I think the generative AI is going to have a monumental shift on the marketing and communications function in an organization, as well as us as marketers ourselves. Just how quickly this technology has developed and what it's capable of now. I think particularly in charities and nonprofits, you're really going to be able to extend the capacity of your teams in a way that our resources probably would never allow us to, unless you have expertise right at your fingertips. 00:02:45:16 - 00:03:05:16 Kelly It can be a copywriter. It can be a brainstorm or a planner. It can fulfill almost or many of the roles that a creative agency might have just to get you started. It's not at the point where it's replacing any human jobs right now, but it's really going to, I think, enhance and be a companion to us as marketers. 00:03:05:18 - 00:03:30:13 Kelly As you start to dive into the world because it's new and it's also you're adding your information into these large language models is really important to understand your organizational policies around the use of AI and protecting your private, confidential, proprietary business information. I like to use AI, as I said, as my editor. So sometimes my sentence structure clarity isn't there. 00:03:30:14 - 00:04:07:03 Kelly So I still write stuff. Well, say can you just review this for grammar, clarity, sentence structure or make this shorter? I hadn't done anything in generative AI before December, and then I took a course through the Canadian Marketing Association that was led by Karla Congson. That really demystified what generative AI is about. So I think that as many of us are going to be at the early stages of AI, I'd encourage a great place to start is just take a course that helps you understand what it is, the role of it, the limitations, the cautions and the Canadian Marketing Association offer some great courses on that as well. 00:04:07:03 - 00:04:36:14 Kelly So ones like AI for nonprofits and Hands on Efficiency and Impact training, that's led by Emily Baillie, and that's suited for nonprofit professionals of all levels of experience who are looking to expand their skill set and gain insight into how I can be used in nonprofit marketing. Karla, who I mentioned is the CEO and founder of Open Gravity, has been a great resource for me, and she worked with the CMA, available On Demand ten video based module on generative AI for marketers. 00:04:36:14 - 00:04:57:00 Kelly So that's a really great course because it's not just about generative AI, but how you can leverage it in your role as a marketer. They also have AI and the Future of Work in marketing and executive overview, which is also led by Karla. And that's tailored more for executive marketers to really understand the complexities and opportunities for AI driven marketing. 00:04:57:02 - 00:05:19:02 Kelly And you can also engage with Unlock the Power of AI and how I can make you a better marketer. That's left by Dave Burnett and that's tailored for marketing for practitioners with 2 to 5 years of experience looking to expand their skill set and embrace the future of AI enhanced marketing. So I think really the key message is this is going to be a skill upgrade that all of us is going to have to make. 00:05:19:04 - 00:05:31:18 Kelly whether or not you like the idea of AI is going to become part of what we do now. If you haven't sort learned the time is now and the CMA offers great resources to do that. 00:05:31:20 - 00:05:51:12 Alison Kelly, thanks so much. It's really great for me to hear that the training through the CMA that you took was a key part of your journey, and I really appreciate the shadow. I also know that our listeners are going to definitely find a compelling the idea of gen AI helping you scale you and your team so you can be even more productive and manage very complex and workloads. 00:05:51:12 - 00:06:00:03 Alison And the ability to multitask with fewer hours in a week is going to be a compelling benefit for all of us. And I'd love to turn it over to you to answer the question as well. 00:06:00:05 - 00:06:25:06 Allen Thank you. And when I look at I just see it as a marketer, I see that as another tool in my toolbox. So looking at from from what my organization is trying to do or trying to achieve, it's looking at what are the different tools at my disposal. And we live in this great age where we have so much rich data and great technology that allows us to actually do things on our own, sometimes without overspending in a lot of different areas. 00:06:25:06 - 00:06:58:08 Allen I kind of look at it as an opportunity to look at the goals that my team has and what I'm trying to achieve, whether it's a campaign, whether it's creative, whether it's summarizing things, putting out more content and seeing where it can kind of help. So I know Kelly spoke to some of the mundane tasks, but looking at and evaluating your own campaigns and looking at the different videos you've put together, there's great uses of AI just to summarize things for you, to help you just bring things down and allow you to really expedite some tasks really quickly to get things moving. 00:06:58:10 - 00:07:23:04 Allen So I see there's great uses of it. No differently than, you know, obviously shameless plug from the data analytics side. It's a great tool on my toolbox that any marketer can have. And look at how you build your own personas and connect with them. AI in the same fashion gives you opportunities to look at how do you upskill and how do you also extend sort of the use or expansion of your team and the volunteers that you use? 00:07:23:06 - 00:07:43:15 Allen So I think AI's definitely an opportunity, but I would ask everyone to kind of start, I think Kelly spoke about some great CMA courses and great resources, but just look at it from the perspective of what am I trying to accomplish? And what can I help me? So getting started and kind of dig into some of that is kind of starting from that standpoint. 00:07:43:17 - 00:08:07:08 Alison For anyone that is worried about AI replacing their jobs, it's certainly not going to do that. And when we were talking earlier, we all talked about it's not about gen AI replacing our jobs. It's about marketers who are digging in and experimenting and learning and getting upskilled in joining AI that ultimately will replace our jobs. If we decide to, that we can opt out of this new technology. 00:08:07:13 - 00:08:25:16 Alison And you've both given so many benefits of why we should be open to experimenting and exploring, and that can really help remove some of the mundane tasks that are part of anyone's job, make us more scalable and also help stress test some of our thinking and play the important role of editors. So really great examples to kick off the session. 00:08:25:18 - 00:08:42:06 Alison Now, with the not for profit and charitable experience that you both bring to the table, I'd love to hear a bit about the unique opportunities that you see for not for profits and charities to leverage. Gen. AI, particularly when they often have smaller budgets and smaller teams. 00:08:42:08 - 00:09:03:09 Kelly I think that, as we've discussed, AI can be a series of AI powered expertise and experts at your fingertips. So and I think a lot of times, and especially charities where you have limited resources, you don't have all the people in your team that, you know, bigger corporations may have. And I think even bigger corporations never have all the skills and expertise they want. 00:09:03:11 - 00:09:28:10 Kelly So generative AI is going to give us opportunities to bring those skills in-house, at a cost that would never be attainable if you actually had to hire each of those or outsource consultants to help you with that. I think that what you'll have to do is figure out what type of expertise you want and how to work with, you know, the AI model that you're going to work with to leverage that properly. 00:09:28:10 - 00:09:52:10 Kelly But right now it can help with copywriting. It can help with data analysis. So if, you know, sometimes we'll just do surveys to try to understand how people are thinking about things or reacting to things. The quickness, which means they can analyze verbatim comments. And we know how expensive quality surveys can be because of that human effort required to analyze the verbatim comments. 00:09:52:10 - 00:10:11:22 Kelly Well, now that's accessible to most of us to be able to do that. So I think that's what's really exciting is not about especially at the YMCA right now. It's not about replacing their jobs, but helping us. And it's not about making us work. Longer hours is about making better use of the hours that we have and just listening to expertise. 00:10:11:22 - 00:10:14:22 Kelly We need to have access to before. 00:10:15:00 - 00:10:22:06 Alison Making better use of the hours we have, is such a great way to sum it up. Kelly, thank you so much. Now I'll I'd love you to share your thoughts. 00:10:22:08 - 00:10:46:11 Allen Yeah. So I think added to what sort of Kelly has said there's an opportunity to upskill yourself. And I know this has been mentioned in terms of what does my team need to sort of farm and what's the best plan to get them there, and where do they get the resources? So using AI as a search and a planning tool is a great resource for a lot of charities, especially medium and small ones that don't have a lot of opportunities. 00:10:46:13 - 00:11:13:19 Allen Or this, the background in terms of H.R. And why not? So just looking at what are the new marketing skills that are out there, can I help you search those function like those skill sets, and put a plan together to prompt you to go and read this article or, you know, register for this class. So there's a great opportunity to use it as a development tool for a lot of different marketing teams on not for profits as well as, you know, summarizing and using it as a creative resource. 00:11:13:19 - 00:11:34:08 Allen So if you have some ideas and I know we all, you know, get behind a whiteboard and throw ideas together and brainstorm with our team. So it's another opportunity to use the tool to say, you know, here's some ideas. Put them all together, search what's out there, and then come back with, you know, more refined ideas that you then as a team can take a little bit further. 00:11:34:10 - 00:11:52:10 Allen So again, it's a great searching tool. And a great development tool that a lot of groups, a lot of marketing teams can utilize. And I've seen it done and we are using it on Environics in terms of from those standpoints as well, it can keep you on task and it can really help you search for different things that you're looking for and put it all together. 00:11:52:12 - 00:12:19:14 Alison That's great. Now you both have given our listeners lots of reasons to want to experiment and try. And for those that have already embraced gen AI to continue their learning and experimentation, we all know that not for profits typically are not early adopters of new technologies. So for our listeners that are coming from the charitable and not for profit space, what would you recommend they do to prepare for the significant changes that gen AI is bringing? 00:12:19:20 - 00:12:22:11 Alison And I want to why don't you kick off this answer? 00:12:22:13 - 00:12:47:23 Allen I would say that a lot of that are in the not for profit space, are not too far behind. there was a recent stats can report that came out that said 1 in 10 companies in Canada, corporate companies or all companies in Canada intend to actually implement AI in this next year. And in terms of Canada and the global sort of environment, where 29th out of 31 that's sort of implemented currently. 00:12:48:01 - 00:13:05:19 Allen So the not for profit space, I would say, is not too far behind. Everybody's trying to get a sense of what is it, how can it be used, and how could this benefit my organization? How can this benefit me as a marketer in my team? So what I would say is there's it's never too late to jump in. 00:13:05:20 - 00:13:23:19 Allen I think it's great to spend some time and find some time, as we all do, as as marketing leaders, to kind of see what's out there and talk to people and look at use cases and again, bring it back to what my team or my organization trying to achieve. And how could this help benefit us and expedite things? 00:13:23:23 - 00:13:44:10 Allen So from mundane tasks all the way to upskilling, I think not for profits, there are different use cases that they can kind of fitted into, but it's never too late to try anything, right? Just like when I think about social media and, and when that came on board, a lot of people were trying it and some people were more hesitant and eventually got on board. 00:13:44:10 - 00:14:05:02 Allen But it was never too late. It's just a matter of what's the right fit for your organization and what's the right use case for your organization. And also from a policy perspective, like being more aware of things that are important from privacy and whatnot. So, I think it's never too late, I guess. And at the same time, it's just you got to jump in to try. 00:14:05:02 - 00:14:07:14 Allen You got to play and figure it out. 00:14:07:16 - 00:14:22:23 Alison And thinking of it more as play instead of this overwhelming, intimidating new thing is a great mindset to bring into it as well. Now, Kelly, being in the not for profit space with your current role would be great to hear what else you would add to Alan's great advice. 00:14:23:01 - 00:14:45:17 Kelly Yes, and I think as charities, we often don't have the resources to take risks in the early stages of technology where we know there is that refinement. And, you know, the version one of something, if you look at, you know, ChatGPT when it was released, not that there's a lot of different between how it was implemented, but some of the technologies, we just can't use our resources to take risks on them. 00:14:45:19 - 00:15:04:09 Kelly With AI, we know that we're going to be adopting it don't always be expert as any time new technology comes. So if you look at the evolution of digital marketing, we don't need to have experts, in-house SEO experts, digital marketing, meta experts. We don't need to have them in-house because we know that there will be experts there to help us. 00:15:04:09 - 00:15:26:09 Kelly So I always want to ease everybody's mind to know the experts and people who do this for a living. We'll be able to help us understand the use cases for our charities and nonprofits, and who knows where this is going to go in the future, because we're at a certain place in time right now. But maybe our service delivery is going to be able to be delivered by AI in the future. 00:15:26:09 - 00:15:54:00 Kelly We're not there yet, but I think one of the things that charities and nonprofits should be thinking of in the adoption of this technology is understanding where it's going, and it's really hard to keep on top of it sometimes because things change so fast. So one thing we've done at YMCA Canada, because there are risks and there's a lot of sometimes what's going to happen when these AI's, if they ever get that independent general intelligence where they can actually make decisions independently of humans. 00:15:54:00 - 00:16:24:17 Kelly And that's scary scenario. We are nowhere near that right now, but understanding the potential pitfalls of that technology. So sometimes if you don't have that expertise in-house, that might be a skill you look to add to your board of directors. We've also encouraged learning of our staff to keep up with this. So we actually at Y Canada had a book club where we read a book called The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, and he really outlines and it's not going to be necessary. 00:16:24:18 - 00:16:49:04 Kelly It's a technical book that's not necessarily about charities and nonprofits, but just more on the state of AI and the threats to the world and how you can mitigate them. So having discussions around things like that, how are those threats and risks applicable to your organizations? Do you have policies? These policies, whatever you put in place today, you probably going to have to rethink it six months from now as the technology and new capabilities become available. 00:16:49:08 - 00:17:09:07 Kelly So I think that's one thing, is just learning about the risks and uses of it. You don't necessarily have to be doing them, but having that general sense of the impact AI is going to have on your organization, and if you don't have that capacity in-house right now, there's people out there that can help us with that. 00:17:09:09 - 00:17:26:07... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32776127

EP26 - Unlocking B2B Growth Strategies with Eric Tang and Mary-Jane Owen 08/20/2024

EP26 - Unlocking B2B Growth Strategies with Eric Tang and Mary-Jane Owen In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, hosts a discussion with two members of the CMA's B2B Council, Mary-Jane Owen, Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and Eric Tang, Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Together, Mary-Jane and Eric redefine what brand-building means in 2024, explore effective and efficient brand-building strategies, and explore the challenges B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:22 - 00:00:56:16 Alison In today's episode, we're diving deep into the realm of B2B marketing, focusing on the critical roles that brand building and digital marketing play in generating leads and ultimately in driving sales. Joining me today are two exceptional guests and also members of our CMA's B2B Council. They both bring a wealth of experience and diverse perspectives. So I'm joined by Mary-Jane Owen, who is the Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and is renowned for her data-driven approach to digital marketing, as well as her ability to consistently deliver impressive ROI for her clients. 00:00:56:18 - 00:01:28:07 Alison Eric Tang also joins me, and he is the Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Eric is known for his expertise in crafting compelling brand narratives and strategies that really resonate with B2B audiences. Together, Mary Jane and Eric will help us redefine what brand building means in 2024. They're also going to share examples of creative and cost effective brand building tactics, and explore the challenges that B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing. 00:01:28:09 - 00:01:52:19 Alison We're also discussing how to reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey, and to leverage the power of both brand building and demand generation to drive sustained business growth. So whether you're a seasoned B2B marketer or just starting your career, this episode is absolutely going to be jam packed with valuable insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own organization. 00:01:52:21 - 00:02:06:21 Alison And while we're focusing on B2B, it will also have a lot of really valuable insights for marketers in the consumer and other fields as well. So on that note, I would love to welcome Mary-Jane and Eric to our episode today. Mary-Jane Thank you Alison. 00:02:06:23 - 00:02:08:08 Eric Thank you so much. 00:02:08:10 - 00:02:20:06 Alison Mary-Jane and Eric. I'm going to kick off by asking you both, what is your definition of brand building and digital marketing when it comes in the context of B2B? Mary-Jane, why don't you kick things off? 00:02:20:08 - 00:02:46:07 Mary-Jane Well, I have to say that when it comes to the B2B space, brand building hasn't really been very well understood and there's often been a real reluctance to invest in those longer term marketing initiatives and a focus rather on like diverting marketing budget to the more short term lead generation type activities where the ROI was much more immediate. 00:02:46:09 - 00:03:20:23 Eric I want to build on what Mary-Jane was just saying, and by just looking at the notion of brand building, you know, traditionally, you know, brand building is often equates to storytelling. And if we just use that lens, then yes, Mary-Jane is absolutely right, it's really hard to demonstrate quantitatively. How do you measure the impact of storytelling? But if you broaden the lens of brand building to other aspects, then it starts getting interesting and much more measurable, which I'm sure today we'll talk more about. 00:03:21:01 - 00:03:36:13 Alison Thank you very much. I want to ask a follow up question on that. You both mentioned that historically, it's been a harder sell to B2B to invest in brand building. Are you starting to see that change, and what do you think some of the key drivers behind that are? 00:03:36:15 - 00:04:02:15 Eric To what I was trying to say earlier, if you look at brand building, strictly storytelling, then yes, there has been, you know, even just past few months, every conference I attended, every conversation I had, people were still having this conversation or struggle between putting money in HN , which is short term, which is important, especially in this economy, versus, you know, staying on top of people's mind and mindshare. 00:04:02:17 - 00:04:33:13 Eric However, if you look at brand building as a combination of storytelling, which is what you're saying to people and how you show up, and then the experience that your products and services are delivering to people and the functional, emotional and high values that you're delivering. Plus how you do, how you're actually behaving as a company, which, you know, we call it the business actions. 00:04:33:15 - 00:04:59:16 Eric Then all of a sudden a lot of these things are very much measurable, especially, you know, for instance, your customer feedback as a result of the product or service you deliver, the piece of content and the relevance, you know, that as a result of your leadership. And your business action as a result, you know, and the feedback that all your stakeholders are giving you. All these are constantly being measured. 00:04:59:21 - 00:05:14:10 Eric So it doesn't matter whether you are an SMB or whether you're a multinational company, you know, that formula applies. And if people start thinking about brand building in that context, then we start changing the conversation. 00:05:14:12 - 00:05:43:12 Mary-Jane And I think the other aspect is to understand that the landscape is dynamic and changing. And in fact, we have to continually be adapting in terms of our demand generation and brand building activities. And so, for instance, I mean, just in the last little while, we've seen the introduction of AI. So a whole new set of tools that we need to figure out how we employ these tools to be better marketers. 00:05:43:14 - 00:05:51:07 Mary-Jane Also, with regards to the economy, you know, we, depending on your industry, we could be entering a phase of low growth 00:05:51:07 - 00:05:51:23 Mary-Jane Or even no growth. 00:05:51:23 - 00:06:05:11 Mary-Jane So the landscape is shifting. So to be able to maintain our competitiveness, we really need to be doing a better job of putting the human into the equation in the marketing that we do. 00:06:05:13 - 00:06:34:19 Eric That's so important, Mary-Jane. And, you know, if you also think about the context of B2B marketing in general, the timeline often, that sales cycle, that timeline is sometimes much longer than what, you know, people experience in the B2C world. So all of a sudden, your customer journey is quite lengthy. You know, sometimes it could be up to, you know, 18 months or longer depends on depends on your category and depends on what you're trying to promote, 00:06:34:19 - 00:07:12:01 Eric right? So what Mary-Jane just said in terms of that human aspect and the stakeholders, what they are encountering during, let's just say that 18 months, the external environment changes all the time. Their concerns and their response to what is happening in the environment they're operating in changes all the time. So we need to be nimble about, you know, how we use a blend of the storytelling, the experience, the demand gen to be, you know, on top, to stay top of mind and consistently being relevant to these stakeholders. 00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:13 Mary-Jane Going a little bit deeper with that, like one of the challenges with B2B, there isn't a single decision maker. You've got sometimes it's a committee. You've got a number of different people that are going to be involved in making a decision, and they're all coming at the opportunity, your proposition, your product or service from a different lens, from a different standpoint. 00:07:36:13 - 00:08:07:06 Mary-Jane They have different concerns, and they have different needs. And I mean, conceptually, we understand when we're building out these lead generation finals, but today it's not even a funnel, but where we really need to be better and and take the time to be more competitive is understanding the emotional element. Understand the underpinning needs, the human, the human that's behind that screen, that's evaluating your product. 00:08:07:06 - 00:08:33:14 Mary-Jane And that will allow us to solve the problem of low conversions that a lot of people, a lot of businesses are experiencing, low conversions from their, demand generation activity. And one of the levers to access better performance out of that is taking the time to really get to know each one of those decision makers, each one of those stakeholders in a really human, personal way. 00:08:33:16 - 00:09:06:16 Eric I have a real life example I can share that in a really reflects what Mary-Jane was saying. We have worked with a global predictive analytics company for a long time. And predictive analytics, you know, is something that's really conceptual. And in this case, this particular client works a lot with financial institutions. And as Mary-Jane mentioned, you know, the dawn of AI, not dawn, but the evolution of predictive analytics, all of a sudden, it's not just a conversation between data scientists. 00:09:06:18 - 00:09:54:01 Eric It's becomes a conversation between risk managers, data scientists, marketing, legal, etc., etc. because they all bring different concerns to the table and every decision made for choosing this technology, it's definitely this committee at at the core, and they all bring different aspects. So when we were talking to this client with a guiding, this client, you know, all of a sudden we're looking at the B to C to B model, meaning okay, at the end, your financial institution is making your client, the financial institution is making decisions based on your technology and powered by your technology that would impact their retail clients, their retail customers. 00:09:54:03 - 00:10:31:10 Eric You know, it could be someone who's seeking a loan. It could be someone who is managing debt, whatever that might be. And you can imagine, you know, the rich conversations in terms of targeting, legal, targeting risk managers, targeting IT, targeting marketing, all of these become, you know, part of the storytelling, part of experience. And when an expert like Mary-Jane comes, you know, and talk about lead gen she is targeting these same audience like I am but with different tools and different techniques. 00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:19 Eric And still, you know, we are together joining hands building, you know, creating this optimum environment so that by the time Mary-Jane does her targeting, these people would be receptive to whatever information and propositions that this demand gen journey is, is trying to achieve. 00:10:51:21 - 00:11:20:18 Alison So you've both talked a lot about how it's not a quick decision. It's not an individual decision. There are a lot of decision makers with very different backgrounds required to ultimately make the sale. There's also a lot of influence around it. And then one of the other things that you've both touched on is the human element. And certainly we as a profession have talked a lot about B2B and B2C, and the reality that you're both highlighting is, it's all human to human, and that's such an important part of doing this well. 00:11:20:19 - 00:11:30:22 Alison So why do you think B2B brands often struggle to determine what the right mix between brand building and digital marketing investments are? 00:11:31:00 - 00:11:55:04 Mary-Jane So one of the challenges is that, like it's not clear that brand building delivers an ROI in the short term or even in near-term, right? And for B2B companies, and we work a lot with like small to medium-sized companies, they just have not understood the value of investing in brand building. 00:11:55:06 - 00:12:22:12 Mary-Jane They've got limited budgets and they're very skewed towards where shorter term priorities lead generation. In fact, a lot of them would consider brand building is kind of unnecessarily fluff, you know, not worth spending money on as like a smaller business. And part of the challenge is that, like the B2B marketing lens is worn by people who've never worked in advertising or in marketing outside of their industry. 00:12:22:14 - 00:12:53:10 Mary-Jane So they have neither the training or the education to be able to have access to kind of the fundamentals of brand building. They don't speak the language. But then additionally, the B2B value proposition has always focused on, you know, rational factors, rational justifications, the idea that decision makers would not be influenced by emotion, that it has to be a purely rational argument, 00:12:53:12 - 00:13:18:20 Mary-Jane ou know, for the for the product or service. And in fact, research is showing that that is not true. We know it's not true for B2C and it's not true for B2B either. In fact, there was some research that was done by Wunderman Thompson, and they showed that emotional factors are a are as much a factor in decision making for B2B as too B2C. 00:13:18:21 - 00:13:50:03 Mary-Jane And in fact, the perception of your brand drives 93% of your market share, right? And in the buying decisions, when they took a look at the factors, two thirds of the decisions were hinged on an emotional connection and only one third, by a rational connection? So everywhere we're seeing mounting evidence that brand building is an inspiring emotion, is much more effective than simply delivering 00:13:50:03 - 00:13:52:19 Mary-Jane rational benefits alone. 00:13:52:21 - 00:14:16:07 Eric Mary-Jane, I couldn't have said it better. And I also want to add, you know, build on what you just said, I heartedly, wholeheartedly agree, you know, with with that perspective. And I think what you just shared applies also to larger companies. And there's an other aspect that we haven't touched on, and that is sometimes the business strategy, the brand strategy and the structure of the company don't align. 00:14:16:09 - 00:14:37:12 Eric What I mean by that is we have, you know, the good fortune, you know, this year in the B2B Council to interact with the creative counsel within CMA. And so, you know, one of the team members is from Telus and she is head of brand. And she so you can tell Telus understands brand, invests in brand, has someone that owns it. 00:14:37:13 - 00:15:04:20 Eric So that's that's a very clear alignment versus some of the clients that I've worked with. One one client may put brand under marketing. Another client may put brand under communications. And sometimes you know it's quote unquote shared responsibilities. And so that is what I mean by the structure and the strategy alignment. You know, if that's not in place, then very often, you know, different teams will look at each other. 00:15:04:21 - 00:15:33:00 Eric Who's owning brand? But the truth is, you know, if we accept the concept of storytelling, product, service, experience and business actions are all part of ingredients. It's part of the formula for building brand. Then, yes, you know, it is a shared responsibility. It needs to be clearly defined and you need a leader to drive all that to make sure every aspect of this is consistent. 00:15:33:02 - 00:15:39:01 Eric So that is something I don't see on a regular basis. When it happens is magical. 00:15:39:03 - 00:16:00:20 Alison It's so great to have that actual research quantifying the important role that emotions play in B2B. Marketing decisions and business decisions as well. So now I'd love to hear from both of you, how can B2B marketers reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey? 00:16:00:22 - 00:16:21:22 Eric Sure. I think in terms of, you know, Mary-Jane already mentioned the traditional idea of funnel is very linear. And I just came back from some training programs, and one of my colleagues just said, well, the funnel is now become a pancake. Everything is squashed. And, you know, all the touchpoints are, you know, happening at the same time. 00:16:21:23 - 00:16:55:21 Eric And so if you're looking at the marketing funnel in the traditional sense, you're not going to be, you know, staying relevant, you know, at all moments in time. And also in terms of reimagining the funnel, it's very much in concert with what is happening to your industry. So I'll give you an example, just by way of observation. If you look at the current, you know, leading Gen AI plays, you have open AI that, you know, obviously as represented by ChatGPT, you have Gemini. 00:16:55:21 - 00:17:18:12 Eric You know, that is you know, Google's, you know, value proposition. And then you have Anthropic and risk solutions, and Claude. Those are just three examples, three well-known examples. And their environment when it comes to, you know, their marketing funnel, their biggest number one issue is trust. And so you can't just say, oh, do it. Address trust at the beginning or at the later end of the journey. 00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:15 Eric It's throughout that journey and their brand building, you know, they're not looking at, oh, how many promotional videos I should do. How many you know content pieces I should do. One of you know, people would not associate that immediately, but one of their brand building key components is the demonstration of the governance. And normally people go how was governance navigating the brand world. 00:17:43:17 - 00:18:09:09 Eric But in this scenario it very much is. And they are overtly talking about how their governance and their governing bodies can help build trust. You know, with the enterprise customers, they're trying to attract, not just, you know, the general public users, because if they're talking to banks, if they're talking to hospitals, if they're talking to public sector, they actually need, you know, to demonstrate that trust. 00:18:09:14 - 00:18:38:06 Eric And not to mention, you know, trying to balance between being regulated and staying in front of regulators to demonstrate that, no , we got this, we are doing this, and we're moving at a speed much faster than any government bodies can. So that's just another example of showing how in the fast paced, I'm using this extreme example, because extreme examples often can demonstrate why the traditional model, you know, needs to be reimagined. 00:18:38:07 - 00:19:04:16 Eric And so if you're going to be a new entrant, you know, a quote unquote SMB or startup trying to, you know, seek funding, trying to get heard in the shadow of ChatGPT, Gemini and Cloud. What are you going to do? You know that that whole traditional funnel just doesn't seem to apply anymore. So that's just, you know, one example of how I see things are evolving at warp speed. 00:19:04:18 - 00:19:29:06 Mary-Jane I'd like to add to what Eric just said, and I'm going to shift a little bit. So taking what he said, the other point that I really want to come back to is this idea that the funnel is no longer a funnel, it's flattened. And for B2B, it's so instinctive for them to want to move towards a close. 00:19:29:11 - 00:20:20:20 Mary-Jane Like every touchpoint is moving towards a close. And that's no longer relevant today to be effective, and re-looking at this buyer journey. Right? It's way less selling and way more relating. Right? Rather than building towards a close at each time, at each touchpoint, rather thinking in terms of a service role, in the service of helping that user on... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32605657

EP25 - Forging Tomorrow's Talent With Rhonda Barnet 08/06/2024

EP25 - Forging Tomorrow's Talent With Rhonda Barnet In this thought-provoking episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, is joined by Rhonda Barnet, CEO of Palette Skills to discuss the critical role of workforce development in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Rhonda highlights the importance of including marketing in upskilling programs and delves into the early success stories emerging from the Digital Marketing Skills Canada (DMSC) program. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:05 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:07 - 00:00:53:07 Alison In today's episode, we have a special guest who brings a very unique perspective on workforce development as well as the critical role it plays in driving innovation and productivity in Canada. Joining me is Rhonda Barnet, the CEO of Pallete Skills, an organization that's at the forefront of delivering the Upskill Canada program. With a background in industry, Rhonda has a very deep understanding of the challenges employers face in developing the workforce of tomorrow and the importance of creating a truly sustainable, innovative economy. 00:00:53:09 - 00:01:24:16 Alison Rhonda is very much a female trailblazer, having achieved great heights in very male dominated industries and institutions. She is a successful executive, entrepreneur, sir and director, as well as a key voice in Canada and around the world when it comes to skills of the future, workforce development and diversity. Rhonda and I also share our first. She was the first woman to chair the National Board of Canada's oldest, largest trade association, Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters, and I'm the first female CEO of the CMA. 00:01:24:18 - 00:01:47:20 Alison Rhonda joined Pallete Skills in 2021 to help Canadians build careers and growing industries, which is how our paths crossed. The CMA, in partnership with two of our member companies, Jelly Academy and Growclass, were awarded funding to upskill 1200 marketers and help them find new roles as part of Palette Skills innovative upskilling Canada program, which is funded by the Canadian government. 00:01:47:22 - 00:02:15:03 Alison In our conversation will delve into the origin story of Upskill Canada and the government's vision for addressing key skill gaps across high demand professions and industries. We'll also discuss the case for including marketing in the upskilling initiative and the early success stories emerging from our Digital Marketing Skills Canada program, which is led by the CMA. Rhonda will also share her insights on how upskilling drives innovation and her advice for aspiring leaders in our field. 00:02:15:05 - 00:02:24:14 Alison So let's dive in and learn how we can all play a part in building a brighter future for marketing and the Canadian workforce. Welcome, Rhonda. It's great to be speaking with you today. 00:02:24:16 - 00:02:27:08 Rhonda Thank you Alison. Thank you so much. 00:02:27:10 - 00:02:38:15 Alison I'd love to kick things off by having you share what government needs and aspirations led to the creation of Upskill Canada, and how does Upskill Canada aim to impact various professions and industries in our country? 00:02:38:17 - 00:03:01:07 Rhonda Yeah, thank you for that. It's a nice, broad question that I'd love to take some time on. So this investment comes from Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada which used to be Industry Canada. So having come from 32 years in industry, I know full well of the issues that industry face around skilled labour and the skilled labou r shortage. 00:03:01:09 - 00:03:30:14 Rhonda So this investment was really about looking at the systemic problem in Canada, where, you know, on one hand, we tout that we have this highly skilled workforce and that we are second in the OECD in terms of tertiary degrees in the world. And yet we have this enormous skills gap, and mid-career workers are not able to keep navigating to that next job along the path in Canada. 00:03:30:20 - 00:03:59:21 Rhonda So while on one hand, we're making tremendous strides and incredible investments as a country in skills development, you know, at the early stages of a person's career, we need to do more to keep them connected. And I think from a manufacturing perspective of retooling, we don't throw away things. We retool. And that's what upskilling is. We want to be able to do small things in a fast period of time to ensure that workers have what they need for that next opportunity. 00:03:59:22 - 00:04:33:18 Rhonda We want to make the most in Canada of the workforce that we have available to us, so that we can actually compete on talent. And so that's really where this whole Upskill Canada investment was born, that this was an initiative that was put forward to Innovation, Science and Economic Development Canada. They put out an RFP in 2022. We were selected March 2023 to be the lead applicant on this $250 billion investment to upskill 15,500 workers over three years. 00:04:33:18 - 00:04:59:05 Rhonda It's the biggest investment in Canadian history in upskilling. And we're so privileged and honoured to be the lead applicant to really convene the ecosystem to do this meaningful work. So, you know, why is it important? It's important because, you know, at the root of it, we have this, these hot pockets of highly skilled talent that are underutilized. People are not getting their full advancement in their career. 00:04:59:07 - 00:05:32:10 Rhonda And we have all of these companies with job openings. And so our program is to really bridge that gap. It's to say, okay, let's look at the potential of the workers and these sort of short cycle programs that can get them the very specific skills that industry is asking for in a very short time. And let's put that together across the country, across sectors, make meaningful investments that are going to help workers achieve their full potential and help employers achieve their full potential by having the skilled talent they need to grow and compete. 00:05:32:12 - 00:05:39:15 Rhonda And when that works, then Canada can achieve its full potential with thriving humming economy. 00:05:39:17 - 00:06:11:00 Alison Thanks so much, Rhonda. What an amazing first and what an important mission critical mandate that you have through pallet and the Skills Canada Initiative and I really applaud the innovation that you, in partnership with the federal government, have developed in order to really meet that mission critical need. I'd love to have you share what led to the inclusion of marketing, especially digital marketing, in the Upskill Canada initiative and what data was used to showcase the importance of digital marketing in the skills gap in the marketplace. 00:06:11:02 - 00:06:35:17 Rhonda You know, when we set this up, we were given the sectors. We were given six key sectors to develop an investment strategy around. Those sectors are ag tech, advanced manufacturing, bio manufacturing, clean tech, digital tech and cyber technology. And you know, marketing wasn't specifically called out as a sector. But of course we know marketing is actually a crosswalk across all sectors. 00:06:35:17 - 00:06:59:15 Rhonda And digital marketing even more so, we know that this digital investment that we're making is really cross-cutting across all sectors. But you know, where did where do we sort of get the justification for this investment? When we were given this investment, we went to Deloitte to help support an investment framework for these funds that would have the most impact for Canada economy in these six sectors. 00:06:59:17 - 00:07:27:03 Rhonda And that investment analysis is available on our website. But that was very big macroeconomic analysis of, you know, where are the key roles and sectors that if we made investments there, we'd get the most economic gain for our country. And what we heard in that report, in our own report, is that digital marketing skills are critical for success of all of Canada's growth sectors. 00:07:27:03 - 00:08:03:00 Rhonda So it's in that report. And even though it wasn't called out specifically in our application process, your organization came forward and you built a very compelling case, a very compelling proposal, and you really highlighted the business need in Canada for digital marketing. And I remember this actually coming over my desk for review. And I'd like to maybe read some of the stats that came through that application that really captured our interest and our attention as we looked to approve various investments. 00:08:03:02 - 00:08:33:07 Rhonda So three organizations which are near and dear to me. The Conference Board of Canada, was cited, estimating that the demand for digital marketers is grown over 90% in the last five years. That's really compelling. And the ICTC, the Information and Communication Technology Council forecasts that Canada's interactive digital media space is on pace to require an additional 103,000 workers by 2025. 00:08:33:07 - 00:08:58:22 Rhonda So you submitted that in 2023. We're almost at 2025. So how are we going to meet that demand, that's compelling. And additional statistics from the Canadian Chamber of Commerce from 2020, 70% of Canadian CEOs report significant challenges recruiting and retaining diverse digital marketing talent with the right certifications and skills. So that's a very compelling business case that you presented. 00:08:59:00 - 00:09:28:15 Rhonda And what we know is that marketing is a really great example of a profession where skills are constantly evolving, and that's really what Upskill Canada is here to solve for is, as things are disrupted and changing, we want to make sure that the workers stay relevant, that they have that next skill to remain relevant in their profession, or to change professions, that they are given an opportunity to leverage what they have, add something small and have a vibrant new career. 00:09:28:15 - 00:09:50:20 Rhonda So I think this investment, it ticked all of those boxes and we're very excited. And I think we're going to talk a little bit later on about this specific investment. But we do know that the the investments that are made in this program, they are cross-cutting across all sectors. So it's a great project for Upskill Canada. It's a great project for Canada. 00:09:50:22 - 00:10:22:05 Alison Thanks for and and I really appreciate you and your team being open to the submission that we made and the importance of upskilling in marketing. There is no industry in Canada that isn't going through dramatic change today, I would say, and clearly I have a bias, but think having been worked across a number of different industries, the role of marketing and the number of external pressures and the amount of change that we as a profession are grappling with really is significantly more than most other industries. 00:10:22:05 - 00:10:42:14 Alison And it really speaks to the need to upskill marketers and make sure that they can continue to have the skills that they need to thrive and help the businesses that they represent grow. And we're certainly seeing that in the high demand for the three programs that we're offering as part of the Digital Marketing Skills Canada initiative. And we can talk about that a little bit later. 00:10:42:16 - 00:10:59:06 Alison Now, I would love you to talk about why workforce development is critical for fueling innovation in Canada, and also how can upskilling programs like ours, the Digital Marketing Skills Canada, help address Canada's productivity gap, especially as it relates to innovation? 00:10:59:08 - 00:11:24:05 Rhonda Yeah, so when I think about workforce development, I actually like to use workforce innovation. I'm going around the country right now talking about the need for workforce innovation, but I've really started talking about it in terms of productivity. There's a lot of conversations in Canada right now about productivity and lagging productivity for our country. I think about productivity as a three legged stool. 00:11:24:07 - 00:11:53:04 Rhonda There's research and development and investments there by companies. There's new technologies that are leveraged through companies, and then there's people that need the skills to take advantage of those new technologies and to do that research and development, to develop that next technology, to develop that next product. So if we're going to think about productivity in Canada, let's not just think about technology and how we're going to have more, better technology. 00:11:53:06 - 00:12:24:16 Rhonda We need humans to do that. And so we have a three legged stool in Canada around productivity. And really it's almost a bit of a chicken and egg because we can't develop those technologies if we don't have the skilled workers to deploy and companies to do that research and development and to leverage new technologies and companies. You know, when you think about productivity, it's really about creating more output and more value with less input. 00:12:24:18 - 00:13:03:19 Rhonda And, you know, when we really give people high level, specific skills to do the job, to do a better job, to do a higher quality job, that's an advancement for the country, that's an advancement for the worker. And so I really like to think about workforce development and workforce innovation as a big lever in productivity in Canada. So how are we looking at solving this problem at Pallette, you know, through our investments and your investment being being one of those. We're really looking at this pool of workers in Canada that are these high potential people that aren't being seen for their full potential. 00:13:03:19 - 00:13:35:19 Rhonda And we think about all of these unfilled jobs. And as I said in the opening, we're here to bridge that gap between the skills gap and industry needs. That's what we're here to do in Canada. We want to elevate the standard of upskilling because we want to demonstrate that with partners like you that we can design short cycle, quick programs to get workers the skills they need, where they're at right now and deploy them into the workforce quickly. And again, that's such a big lever in productivity. 00:13:35:19 - 00:13:53:09 Rhonda When we think about the double drag of people not having their full potential, it's a drag on the economy and we're going to make quick investments and we're going to then be able to lift and see a double win on the economy when workers and employers achieve their full potential. So that's what our investments are aimed to do. 00:13:53:11 - 00:14:21:16 Rhonda And we know that to solve this, we need to leverage our our highly diverse, highly skilled and highly motivated workforce so that we can ensure that workers are getting the right skills at the right time in their working lives. And we need to be thinking about workers, as you know, in terms of their whole working lives. It's not like you go to school for 3 or 4 years, and then you're just dumped into the workforce for 30 or 40 years, and you're fine with just small fine tuning or training. 00:14:21:16 - 00:14:42:20 Rhonda We think about upskilling is really elevating a person. So that's what Upskill Canada's here to do. That's how we think about being innovative in terms of workforce development, that we're really going to use these investments to help Canadians make the most of their working lives and help companies access the skills they need at the time they need them to compete and grow. 00:14:42:22 - 00:14:50:13 Rhonda And this is what we need to innovate on the Canadian economy and around productivity in Canada. 00:14:50:15 - 00:15:27:02 Alison So well said, Rhonda, and when I think about my finishing my schooling and 25 plus years later, how much the profession, the our consumers, the marketplace has evolved. If I had thought that what I knew when I finished school was all I would need, I would have been out of a career, this career decades ago. So that ongoing learning and upskilling is so important to us as a country to benefiting our ability to innovate and drive our economy, and also for the individual from a job satisfaction and job growth. 00:15:27:04 - 00:15:54:08 Alison I will say one of the most rewarding things about the training we're doing through the DMSC initiative is seeing firsthand and talking to the learners as they're going through one of our three programs, as they're getting support in their job search and as they're landing their job, there is nothing more rewarding than to see the impact we're having a very personal level, too, and often on underrepresented groups. 00:15:54:10 - 00:16:21:11 Alison That is such a core mandate and mission for, I know, for Upskill Canada, for Palette, and certainly for the CMA as well. So to see the positive impact other national as well as an individual basis speaks volumes about the importance of the program and company that you're leading. Now I would love you to share what kind of impact you envision pilots upskilling initiatives will have on the broader Canadian economy. 00:16:21:13 - 00:17:01:13 Rhonda Yeah, I just love this question. I love to answer this question, and I want to just keep going back to this concept of potential because it's really about potential. Canada has so much potential. We have great humans, great workers in our country, highly skilled workers, and we have amazing companies in Canada. And if we're going to achieve our full potential as a country, we have to make sure that workers are able to achieve their full potential, that they are seen for the jobs of the future, that they are seen for that next job, that they are not pigeonholed because of the kind of experience that they've had to date or the country that they came 00:17:01:13 - 00:17:24:03 Rhonda from, that they don't have Canadian experience. We need humans to be seen for their full potential, so that companies can achieve their full potential and Canada can achieve its full potential. So to me, that is the greatest impact that we can have through this investment. But this investment is just a drop in the bucket. I do know that, but it's an important one and it's a national one. 00:17:24:05 - 00:17:50:07 Rhonda And so this investment is going to change the lives of at least 15,500 workers in Canada, will get access to these upskilling programs across sectors, across our nation. And the goal is to have 75% of those workers achieve job placement. So that's the real differentiator. That's the real impact here is that we're not looking to put bums on seats in training programs in Canada. 00:17:50:09 - 00:18:18:14 Rhonda Lots of organizations can do that. We really want pointed upskilling programs, high potential workers that want to take those programs and land in a job and make sure that everything that we are doing and investing in is leading to those job outcomes. We have significant targets for equity deserving groups within our our investment mandate, and all delivery partners are contracted to ensure that they're meeting those. 00:18:18:14 - 00:18:34:14 Rhonda And I would like to say that we are knocking those out of the park. So I want to give you a few stats from our early wins on this investment. And we're only one year into the program. And, you know, it took several months to get off the ground and to make the formal investments with organizations like yours. 00:18:34:14 - 00:18:57:08 Rhonda So we expect to hear so many more stats coming out in the next few months around impact and job placement. But right now, what we're seeing is that 94% of our participants have identified as belonging to one or more of the equity deserving groups that we have been contracted to to fulfill. So that's that's really amazing. And this... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32353187

EP24 - The Road to Paris 2024 with Jacqueline Ryan 07/23/2024

EP24 - The Road to Paris 2024 with Jacqueline Ryan In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Jacqueline Ryan, CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee. Jacqueline shares her passion for sports and the Foundation's crucial role in supporting Canada's elite athletes. With the Paris 2024 Olympic Games approaching, they discuss the success of Canada's female athletes and reveal how Canadians can rally behind Team Canada. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:16 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:18 - 00:00:45:12 Alison Welcome to a special and timely episode of CMA Connect. With the Paris Olympics just around the corner, I'm absolutely thrilled to bring you an inside look at the Canadian Olympic Committee's preparations and the exciting prospects for Team Canada at the upcoming games. Joining us today is Jacquie Ryan. She's the CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation and Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee. 00:00:45:14 - 00:01:17:16 Alison Jacquie is one of the most influential and effective leaders in sport. Her impressive career spans over 20 years, leading strategy, brand, communications, sponsorship, loyalty programs, digital marketing, corporate social responsibility and sustainability in sports in the financial services sector. She's also held board roles, including her current position as a CMA Board director. Jacquie brings a unique perspective to her role not only as a seasoned sport marketing executive, but also as someone with a deeply personal connection to the Olympic movement. 00:01:17:18 - 00:01:43:03 Alison After growing up in an Olympic family, and her sister's experience as an Olympic athlete, this really fuelled Jacquie's lifelong passion for sport and her commitment to supporting Canadian athletes on the global stage. In our episode today, Jacquie is sharing insights on the Canadian Olympic Committee's marketing and sponsorship strategies and how they're collaborating with partners to create impactful campaigns that will resonate with Canadians while also driving business results. 00:01:43:05 - 00:02:06:19 Alison We're also going to explore the Team Canada Impact Agenda, a critical social impact program that reflects the Canadian Olympic Committee's commitment to fostering safe, inclusive and barrier-free sports environments for all. And we'll dive into the outlook for Team Canada in Paris, and the athletes poised to make their mark. This discussion promises to be a fascinating behind the scenes look at the incredible work being done by the Canadian Olympic Committee. 00:02:06:21 - 00:02:08:08 Alison So welcome, Jacquie. 00:02:08:10 - 00:02:14:02 Jacquie Thank you Alison. Great pleasure to be here today. I'm so excited to chat with you today about it. 00:02:14:04 - 00:02:18:07 Alison I really appreciate you taking time in what has to be a remarkably busy schedule. 00:02:18:09 - 00:02:20:19 Jacquie It is indeed. 00:02:20:21 - 00:02:30:23 Alison So I'd love to kick it off by asking, what attracted you to the role of CEO at the Canadian Olympic Committee? And how has your lifelong passion for sport shaped your career journey? 00:02:31:01 - 00:02:51:18 Jacquie Thanks, Alison, and thanks for asking. Yes, I am just so fortunate to be in the position I'm in. What attracted me to the role? You know, it really comes from, you've already mentioned it, just a lifelong passion for sport. I do come from a sports oriented family. We grew up doing lots of different sports together. The one common thread for our family was skiing. 00:02:51:19 - 00:03:12:18 Jacquie So we spent a lot of time together doing that, to the extent that my sister ended up excelling in skiing and becoming an Olympic athlete in freestyle skiing. So I had that really unique purview of seeing how hard and how dedicated, how committed these athletes are on their journey, and all the resources and supports it takes to get there. 00:03:12:19 - 00:03:33:21 Jacquie So that's kind of the purview I come from. And then that in addition to just really enjoying being in a sporting environment, I found my way after university in Banff teaching skiing and hadn't quite decided what I wanted to do with my life. I didn't know what to do. I actually didn't know that jobs existed in sports and sports marketing. 00:03:33:23 - 00:04:01:01 Jacquie I knew very little about that aspect of the business, but I knew what I loved to do. So I went from out west, came back to Toronto, had very, very fortunate opportunities to work at some of the best sports marketing agencies in the country - Lang and Associates, MacLaren Momentum. And then one day I received a call where there was a six month contract available at RBC to work on the Olympics. And it was a contract. 00:04:01:02 - 00:04:44:01 Jacquie No, no, necessarily long-term commitment, but I just couldn't resist. So packed my bags, went up the street, ended up at RBC on this contract. Well the contract turned into full- time employment. I ended up staying there for 12 years and really just an incredible experience. I had Olympics as part of my portfolio the whole time. I did some other things community marketing, product marketing, RBC Foundation, but really the largest thing I did and the most exciting thing that I got to do with my team there, was to write the business case to acquire the Vancouver 2010 Olympic and Paralympic Games sponsorship, and then to launch the marketing activities around that, the Olympic torch 00:04:44:01 - 00:05:11:18 Jacquie relay, taking that across the country from coast to coast to coast. And we really enjoyed our time on that portfolio and really drove really incredible business and brand results for the organization. So really, really proud of that effort and what a journey it was. So I was loving my time at RBC and then got a call about this wonderful opportunity at Scotiabank to go over and be the Vice President of Sponsorship, Partnerships and Philanthropy. 00:05:11:18 - 00:05:33:15 Jacquie So I did a few different things there. I worked on the Scene program there, philanthropy portfolio, and then ultimately, pretty much the last thing I did before I left was work on the Scotiabank Arena deal, which again, really tapped into my experience having been at RBC in terms of how to write a business case for a very large marketing investment. And so we put the business case together, 00:05:33:20 - 00:06:06:17 Jacquie we pitched for the rights and and the rest is history, as they say. So really proud also of that. So again, enjoying my time. And then was offered the opportunity to come over to the Canadian Olympic Committee. And based on everything I've just said in my background, I think it's pretty obvious why I said, absolutely, I'm coming. So I came over in 2019 as the Chief Brand and Commercial Officer of the Canadian Olympic Committee, and that means my team really oversees the marketing partnerships, digital, brand marketing events, sustainability and business development. 00:06:06:18 - 00:06:41:01 Jacquie So we're responsible for for driving all of the sponsorship and the revenue for the organization. So started that in 2019 and then in 2021 was then offered, additionally, the opportunity to take on a CEO of the Canadian Olympic Foundation. So I have both jobs. I love absolutely everything I do. I really, it's been a wonderful journey and I think hopefully it helps to sort of illustrate just really following your passion and how my passion for sports is really connected with, you know, my interests around marketing and being really purpose-led to make sure that the work I do is mission-driven and really makes an impact in Canada. 00:06:41:01 - 00:06:45:16 Jacquie So really, that's how I got here and it's been a pretty amazing journey. 00:06:45:18 - 00:07:11:00 Alison That really is a remarkable journey. And I also love the fact that you took a bet on yourself and what it led to, like leaving a full time job not just for a contract, but for six month contract and look at the reward. And that's such a great lesson for everyone listening at any stage in our career. So the Canadian Olympic Committee plays a crucial role in supporting Team Canada's athletes, as well as working with sponsors to create impactful marketing campaigns. 00:07:11:00 - 00:07:23:21 Alison And you clearly have been on the other side of that as a sponsor with really strong business results. I'd love you to walk us through how the COC collaborates with its marketing partners to drive their business schools, while also advancing the Olympic movement. 00:07:23:23 - 00:07:41:22 Jacquie We're really proud of this work, really proud of the marketing partners that we get to collaborate with every day. I mean, I think what's really important to point out and not many people know this, is that the Canadian Olympic Committee is largely privately funded. And what I mean by that is the majority of the revenue that comes into the organization, 00:07:41:22 - 00:08:05:09 Jacquie the overwhelming majority, is from our marketing partners, our sponsors. And so they sponsor our organization, we provide marketing rights, etc., and ultimately, what's also important to point out is as a not-for-profit, the majority of the dollars that came in from our marketing partners go right back as an investment into the sports system. And so it's a, it's a really important relationship 00:08:05:09 - 00:08:27:16 Jacquie we have with our marketing partners. And we're proud of our marketing partner family. These are the top brands in Canada. We are in very good company, whether that be RBC, Canadian Tire, Lululemon, Bell, Sobeys, Air Canada, Petro Canada, the list goes on and on. And these are not only top brands in Canada, they're a pleasure to work with. 00:08:27:16 - 00:09:01:00 Jacquie They're also the top marketers in Canada. So it's an interesting relationship because again, they're playing a key role in strengthening the sport system and supporting our Olympic athletes, while at the same time they have access to a really unique marketing platform. The Canadian Olympic Committee is the number one national sports property in Canada. And what drives that is that we have incredible reach - 75% of Canadians engage with Team Canada and the Canadian Committee throughout the games. 00:09:01:00 - 00:09:28:05 Jacquie They engage many ways, but in particular through broadcast and digital. So our property provides an exclusive and a universal platform. And when I say that exclusive, I mean that when you come on the Canadian Olympic Committee as a partner, you're exclusive in that category. So you absolutely own it relative to your competitors. So you've got this point of distinction and then it's universal because again, 75% of Canadians are actively engaged with Team Canada. 00:09:28:07 - 00:09:58:23 Jacquie And so it really is an interesting platform that has this massive reach. And it connects Canadian's passions with a greater purpose. And, you know, that's all about investing in Olympians on their journey to the podium. A big part of our mission is focused on our purpose, and our purpose is to transform Canada through the power of sport. So we're super fortunate to, again, have these partners that are aligned with our values and really embrace our mission. 00:09:58:23 - 00:10:22:00 Jacquie And I mean, the list is long. I can highlight, certainly I'm very proud of, I'm wearing it today, Lululemon our partner. So they are responsible for the team Canada Lululemon kit. And what that means, it's what the athletes wear when they go to games. And so we launched that kid on April 16th. And it's a kit that's arrived in store on April 16th and online, 00:10:22:04 - 00:10:41:20 Jacquie but it took years to get there. The... everything that the athletes wear, the Lululemon works with the athletes individually and with a few different athletes to figure out what clothing is best serving their needs when they're at games. I'll just highlight one other because again, the list is long. RBC Training Ground is another really important program. 00:10:42:01 - 00:11:02:08 Jacquie And it's it's much more than a marketing program. They talk about it of course, in their marketing communications, but it's all about identification of athletes who have the potential and investing in those athletes on their journey. So they work directly with the national sporting organizations across the country. It's going into its 10th season, and the success stories go on and on. 00:11:02:08 - 00:11:21:05 Jacquie Whether it be Kelsey Mitchell, Pierce LePage, these are athletes that started an RBC training ground and made it all the way to the Olympic Games and came home with with medals. So there's lots of athletes have gone through the program. We're very, very proud of the program and proud to partner with RBC again to have such an impact on the sport system in Canada. 00:11:21:05 - 00:11:32:04 Jacquie So those are just two examples of a very, very long list. But hopefully that helps illustrate how deep our partners go in terms of their investments and building wonderfully engaging marketing programs. 00:11:32:06 - 00:11:58:20 Alison Thanks so much, Jacquie. And I'm very excited, as one of the 75% of Canadians who call ourselves fans of the Olympics, to see the marketing come to life. Now you join the Canadian Olympic Committee in the pandemic. So definitely a unique time to be starting a role. And your first two games had some truly unique challenges as well. So now you're heading into your third Olympics and it will be the first full on Olympics post-pandemic. 00:11:59:02 - 00:12:06:02 Alison I'd love to hear what are you most excited about? And also what's the outlook for Team Canada in Paris? 00:12:06:04 - 00:12:30:13 Jacquie Yes. What a time it's been. And having joined it to your point in in August of 2019 is when I joined, so got to work, I learned a lot, a lot about the business. I kept thinking, oh my gosh, there's just so much to take in here, how am I ever going to learn it all? Then the pandemic hit, and as an organization, we were actually the first organization to to the first country actually indicate that we're just not comfortable sending the athletes to the games. 00:12:30:13 - 00:12:50:19 Jacquie The athletes themselves are not comfortable. They're much more concerned with ensuring their communities and their country is safe and healthy. So looking back, Tokyo and Beijing, both games in the Covid context and then they were back to back. So the game should have been in 2020 and 2022. And they were in fact 2021 and then 2022 literally like however many months later? 00:12:50:21 - 00:13:18:06 Jacquie So it was quite something. Summer and Winter games, you know the resilience of these athletes just incredible. You know, coming from the most adverse conditions, no training conditions. The, you know, the women and the men couldn't even get in the pool. Unless they had a pool in their backyard, there was no training happening for days and days and days and months and in other areas of the world, there was and so these athletes just persevered through and they performed so well. 00:13:18:07 - 00:13:47:18 Jacquie And so the results are something for all Canadians to be really, really proud of and for Tokyo for example, 24 medals, which is one of our best ever and really looking to eclipse that this year in Paris. And, you know, another part that I really do like to talk about, and really important part of the story is that of the medals won in Tokyo and Beijing, in Tokyo, 75% of the medals won for Canadians were women, for Beijing, 55%. 00:13:48:00 - 00:14:07:14 Jacquie And this is unprecedented. This is just really something to be proud of. And, you know, as a result of all of that, is these women incredibly inspiring that what we saw was increased fan engagement with women athletes and women's sports overall, and that that's through our channels. And, you know, I think that's really important, it's certainly very relevant today. 00:14:07:14 - 00:14:39:03 Jacquie There's lots of discussion about women and sports and and investing in women in sports and celebrating their successes. And we've put female athletes front and centre in our brand, marketing. We tell their stories. We tell their stories through our digital channels. And we've really seen female athletes become the face of of Team Canada and among other sport properties in Canada and, you know, importantly, when we talk about the business of sport, in the business of investing in women in sport, these women have signed lucrative sponsorship deals. 00:14:39:03 - 00:15:07:22 Jacquie This is a virtuous circle. So ultimately investing in women's sport drives on-field success, which drives viewership, inspiration, audience and drives participation. I'm inspired by these athletes. I start to participate. That drives brand value for these marketing partners that I'm talking about, which then leads back to partnership investment, which drives back to investing in women in sports. So we've really proven the model that by investing in women over the years, 00:15:07:22 - 00:15:27:15 Jacquie for Team Canada, it's absolutely driving results in all aspects of of the virtuous circle. So something to be proud of. and so, you know, we're doing women have done well. Men have done well as well. There's so many incredible athletes to get excited about for Paris and lots of good stories, you know. So it's it's hard to pick who to talk about. 00:15:27:15 - 00:15:46:12 Jacquie I'll highlight just a few that I'm excited to watch in Paris. So of course Summer McIntosh in the pool, Maggie MacNeil, Penny Oleksiak, Josh Lindo. So there's a tremendous amount of Team Canada strength in the pool this year. Women's three-on-three basketball. This is new to the games. And the Canadian team is number one in the world. 00:15:46:12 - 00:16:10:00 Jacquie I think right now. The NBA players are going to be dominating men's basketball. So that's definitely something exciting to watch. Breaking as they call it, which is breakdancing is new to the Paris Olympic Games. And Phil Wizard, a Canadian, is number one in the world right now. Skylar Park in tae kwon do. She's amazing to watch. Andre De Grasse is always a fan favourite, so can't wait to see him in the 100 metre. 00:16:10:02 - 00:16:20:04 Jacquie Melissa and Brandie in beach volleyball. So the list is long and we're looking super strong. And so I'm really, really excited about seeing the athletes perform in Paris. 00:16:20:06 - 00:16:39:17 Alison That's incredible. I did not know the women's stats from the last two games, and you and I have acted on a bunch of levels, including the powerful role in sport in our lives. And I certainly didn't have the number of female role models that Canada is producing today. And we think about the the short term and the long term positive ripples of that. 00:16:39:17 - 00:16:49:05 Alison It's incredibly inspiring. So thank you very much for sharing that. And I didn't realize breaking had made it into the Olympic sport. So you've giving me something else to tune in to to. 00:16:49:06 - 00:17:13:16 Jacquie Absolutely. And maybe I'll just touch a little bit on our marketing campaign while we're at it, because Phil Wizard is in our brand marketing campaign this year. So every Olympic Games year, the Canadian Olympic Committee launches a brand campaign. We do consider our job to to really be first in the market from a marketing perspective, set the stage for the narrative around the games that are upcoming so that our marketing partners, when they start to launch their campaigns, they don't have to do the heavy lifting. 00:17:13:16... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32197062

EP23 - Mastering Customer Experience with Alessandra Bisaillon, Lesley Haibach, and Sue Sharp 07/16/2024

EP23 - Mastering Customer Experience with Alessandra Bisaillon, Lesley Haibach, and Sue Sharp In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes three members of the CMA's CX Council: Alessandra Bisaillon, Director of Marketing and Media Relations at Farm Boy Company Inc., Lesley Haibach EVP, Customer Experience at Ipsos Limited Partnership, and Sue Sharp, Partner and National Lead, Customer Experience Transformation & CMO Advisory at PwC Management Services LLP. Their discussion sheds light on how crucial and influential customer experience has become, why service design plays a critical part and the importance of understanding the customer journey. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:03 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:05 - 00:00:44:08 Alison In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's becoming increasingly critical for marketers. Customer experience or it's a continues to play a larger role in marketers scope of responsibilities. It is absolutely essential to understand the tools and frameworks that can help us excel in this area. And one such framework is service design, which we'll be talking a bit about today. 00:00:44:09 - 00:01:14:13 Alison So service design is a powerful approach that helps organizations systematically understand, align, and optimize their resources and processes to enhance both the employee as well as the customer experience. By leveraging service design principles, marketers can create more cohesive, meaningful, and memorable experiences that really drive brand loyalty and ultimately grow businesses. So, to help us navigate this topic, I have three members of our Canadian Marketing Association joining me today. 00:01:14:15 - 00:01:42:18 Alison Lesley Haibach is the EVP, Customer Experience Leader at Ipsos. Alessandra Bisaillon is the head of marketing and media relations at Farmboy Company, Inc., and Susan Sharp is a partner and national lead Customer Experience Transformation and the CMO advisory at PWC. They each bring a unique perspective and a wealth of expertise in both CX and service design. So today is absolutely going to be an illuminating and engaging conversation. 00:01:42:20 - 00:02:03:21 Alison Throughout the discussion, Lesley, Alessandra, and Susan are going to explore why marketing and CX are so tightly intertwined. We'll also talk about what sets organizations that excel at service design apart, and what marketers can do to start embedding service design as a capability within their teams and enterprises. So I'm thrilled to have three talented guests joining us today. 00:02:03:22 - 00:02:07:01 Alison So a big welcome to Lesley, Sue and Alessandra 00:02:07:03 - 00:02:08:11 Sue Thanks, Alison. 00:02:08:13 - 00:02:08:23 Lesley Thank you. 00:02:08:23 - 00:02:10:11 Alessandra Thank you. 00:02:10:13 - 00:02:21:12 Alison Now I want to kick things off by asking why our marketing and customer experience so tightly coupled. And how does service design play a role. Lesley why don't you kick us off? 00:02:21:14 - 00:02:57:08 Lesley Sure. That would be great. Thank you. Alison. And this is a very important question. In fact, I'm sure all three of us would strongly agree that CX is one of the most important considerations for an organization and that its importance is often underestimated. It's critical for organizations to understand why marketing and customer experience need to be so intertwined. What we're seeing is more and more consumers interactions with the brand are really driven by their own experiences, and not necessarily marketing initiatives or the advertising of that brand. 00:02:57:10 - 00:03:23:20 Lesley In fact, we know from our own Ipsos research that two thirds of consumers will select a brand based on the experiences they've had and nothing else. And that's almost twice the percentage of any other reason for interacting. Whether that's brand image, word of mouth, social media, and why that is is because customers create their own expectations for brand, and these expectations are based on their own experiences, the marketing they see, 00:03:23:22 - 00:03:49:04 Lesley the advertising from, things they've heard from their friends and family. However, when these customers actually interact with that brand, the experience delivered is either going to meet their expectations, it's going to exceed them, or it's going to fail to meet them. And if a customer's expectations are continually being unmet, their risk of turning to a different brand. 00:03:49:06 - 00:04:22:10 Lesley So often organizations, you know, we find do look at brand health and their marketing initiatives and customer experience metrics. But they often do this in isolation of one another. And we find that can be very misleading and really underscores the reason why organizations need to look at them together. And I give you an example of this. We did a study a few years ago in the grocery industry here in Canada, and we designed our study to look at both brand health metrics and key metrics. 00:04:22:12 - 00:04:51:17 Lesley When we initially started looking at this, if we looked at, let's say, two brands in particular, if we just looked at their brand metrics, we have a clear leader based on the amount market share, the attitudinal, equity, brand love all of these things that are important from a marketing perspective. But when we layered in the customer experience metrics, we quickly found that that leading brand was actually on a declining trajectory, and it was the number two brand that was actually in growth mode. 00:04:51:19 - 00:05:13:21 Lesley What was happening was brand number one wasn't delivering the experiences to the level of expectation of their customers. So despite their current market lead, the brand was heading towards a sharp decline. Whereas for the second brand, their experiences were meeting or exceeding expectations and we could see how they were very rapidly picking up market share and were growing. 00:05:13:23 - 00:05:42:23 Lesley So for the first brand, it was important for them to understand how to deliver experiences that would at least meet expectations of their customers. And this is really where service design comes into play. When an organization is not meeting their customers expectations. They need to take the time to evaluate and redesign those experiences so that they can continue to drive customer loyalty and maintain and grow their share of that. 00:05:43:01 - 00:05:59:18 Alison Let's say thank you very much for sharing that in the grocery example. Now, you and I are both have been doing this for a few decades now. So certainly early in my career, marketing and CX wasn't something we talked about a lot in marketing. And if it existed in the companies we were in, it certainly wasn't part of marketing. 00:05:59:18 - 00:06:08:12 Alison So I'd love to hear you share. Like, what do you think has brought those together and made CX a bigger priority for marketers today? 00:06:08:14 - 00:06:31:01 Lesley I think it really comes back to this example that we shared in the fact that if companies are finding this disconnect in their results based on their marketing, and I think as they start to connect the dots and go, well, wait a second, why is my marketing no longer being what's driving people in? And the fact that we now know it's their own experiences has forced a lot of work and ization to really say, you know what? 00:06:31:01 - 00:06:38:06 Lesley There's something here that's disconnecting, and we need to find a way to make sure we are meeting those expectations of our customers. 00:06:38:07 - 00:06:41:23 Alison In many ways, it's an early indicator, early warning system email. 00:06:41:23 - 00:07:09:07 Sue So add to that that you know traditionally is marketers. And then we'll talk more about this a little bit later. But traditionally as marketers we have always been how do we how do we drive demand. Right. And thinking about growth through demand and conversion. But lately and we all know with the economy the way it is, we've had to really kind of pivot into retention. 00:07:09:09 - 00:07:33:03 Sue Well, what does retention look like? Retention. There's a resounding element of customer experience through all of your retention capability. Right. So so it is really tightly coupled. And having it sit outside kind of as a standard or somewhere else in an organization, I think puts an organization more at risk. It really does become part of what marketers after. 00:07:33:05 - 00:07:44:15 Alison That's a great add on, Sue, thank you very much. Now I'd like to hear what are organizations that are really excelling at service design. What are they doing differently? Lesley, do you want to kick this off? 00:07:44:17 - 00:08:05:06 Lesley We found that when an organization is optimizing their experiences through service design, we found that they do kind of one of all of these five tips. And they may not realize they're doing these five things exactly the way that they are, but it really is the foundational pieces to making sure that everything comes together. So part of it is research, right? 00:08:05:07 - 00:08:25:14 Lesley Research has to do is to start with the research. But that research also has to evolve. So for example, in my grocery store example you needed a starting point. We needed to understand the circumstance of brand one and brand two. But as we try to redesign those experiences for brand one, you need to be able to have research to help you do that. 00:08:25:14 - 00:08:55:10 Lesley What's working, what's not. And then once you decide to implement whatever's the best solution, you need to continuously monitor that. That's the first one. Second one is alignment of your leadership. This needs to happen across all functions in an organization because we know that while experiences are truly delivered at the front line, if you don't have leadership alignment from the top down, anything new you try is not necessarily going to be successfully implemented and maintained. 00:08:55:12 - 00:09:19:17 Lesley And then there's the operationalization of all these experiences, because it's not enough for the leaders themselves to be aligned on the functions. Customer experience has to focus across all levels of the organization. So whether an organization does regular meetings, other initiatives, huddles, whatever it is, each part of the business has to be accountable for it to some degree and measured on that. 00:09:19:19 - 00:09:47:08 Lesley And we see this often a lot of resistance with organizations that say, but my back office doesn't deal with clients, not directly, perhaps, but they do have internal clients. And all of those things have an impact on your ultimate customer. So making sure the back office is considered as well is critical. And then measurement of ROI, right? If you're delivering the right experiences to your customers, you need to understand the ROI of doing that. 00:09:47:10 - 00:10:10:01 Lesley We like to call it an Ipsos proxy, a return on customer experience investment. But every function in the organization needs to have their own KPIs. And you need to be able to analyze these against CX. So looking at things like what's your return on investment when it comes to brand or NPS or basket size or traffic counts? All of these things can be impact by service delivery. 00:10:10:03 - 00:10:41:03 Lesley And the last one is about sustaining all of this across all functions, and knowing when it's time to step back and reevaluate or treat tweak experiences that you're delivering. And it doesn't matter the size of the organization, these principles can apply in all cases because most organizations have these functions across the business, and it's about creating a CX design and strategy that will go across the entire organization, whether there's 100 employees or 100,000. 00:10:41:05 - 00:10:43:19 Lesley And I think, Alessandra you had an example of this, right? 00:10:43:21 - 00:11:13:15 Alessandra Absolutely. Yeah. And in terms of one organization that we discussed that really delivers a consistent and positive experience, its customers is Starbucks. And they have truly mastered all five components of the service design framework, particularly when it comes to operationalizing the experience and also from a sustainability perspective. They also intentionally make the experience of their customers a personal one, whether it's with every order or every visit. 00:11:13:16 - 00:11:35:00 Alessandra And when you do visit a Starbucks, you know the staff is so knowledgeable about every coffee blend menu item. They truly are amazing in terms of executing the personalization of offers, which essentially they've also successfully done through their systems. And Lesley mentioned a little bit about, you know, the backstage, the back office. They do a really great job of that as well. 00:11:35:06 - 00:11:51:05 Alessandra And then of course, there's the data and research component. And, you know, leveraging insights and data to really bring that on to life. So we felt that this was a really good example of one organization that has truly mastered all five components of service design. 00:11:51:07 - 00:11:55:15 Alison Lesley, thank you very much for distilling it down to those five core principles and analysis. 00:11:55:15 - 00:12:15:05 Alison And to bring it to life with an example is great. And it's also a really good segue into the next piece that I want to dig in, which is around data, research and sustainability. So let's dive deeper into research measure and sustain. And why are these are critical ongoing aspects of service design and CX. Sue I'd love you to take the lead on this. 00:12:15:07 - 00:12:42:14 Sue Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I think I'm going to start with a statement that when you think about research, measure and sustain, it's obviously not once and done, it's ongoing. If I start with research, you really need to think about gaining that deep understanding of the customer, your customer across channels, the customer's perception of your brand, their experience with it is critical. 00:12:42:14 - 00:13:12:21 Sue As Lesley pointed out earlier. The key here for us as marketers is to look at the end to end state of the client experience and understanding the highs and the lows of the interactions your client has, whether it's the online channel, the the mobile channel, or the in-person or, you know, your call center. You have to think about how that that customer is interacting with your front line or through the tools that you've enabled for self-service. 00:13:12:23 - 00:13:36:21 Sue And it's this core. It's really core to understanding and prioritizing what problems you need to solve to deliver on your vision. And I like to talk in problems we're solving because to me that's a need. It's a need based way to think about what you need to do to to enable a better customer experience. Just because it's cooling fancy doesn't mean you need to go and do it. 00:13:36:23 - 00:14:03:19 Sue So this understanding and the prioritization of what problems we're solving are will become your benchmark. And through sustain ultimately your guide. Now too often we see clients that they think they know their client experience. They don't want to do the research. They don't want to invest in that. They think that they can act as the client and give them give feedback. 00:14:03:21 - 00:14:30:03 Sue This is a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, and it really holds back the organization from from succeeding in CX and specifically in service design. So your research will help fuel your initiatives and true transforming. And it is the critical element in creating the alignment for your vision across your organization and for helping to sustain and evolve the vision. 00:14:30:05 - 00:15:00:18 Sue So those data points really, really hit home for executives across the board. In service design, we often talk about a service blueprint, the blueprint gives an organization a holistic view of what needs to happen to make your vision work. So we've talked a lot about kind of thinking across the business. And you think about the customer interaction, the middle office layer and interaction and process, the back office process and what technology we need to have in place to support it. 00:15:00:20 - 00:15:30:00 Sue It's a lot, but I think as marketers, we're good leaders, we're good collaborators, and we have a role to play in in this effort to really help drive change and growth through customer experience. So while we might be, as I said earlier, focus on the top of the funnel and demand generation or acquisition, but more and more of us have to start thinking about our efforts, about retention. 00:15:30:02 - 00:16:07:05 Sue So, as Lesley pointed out, it truly impacts customer retention and your brand. And thinking about that churn that happens when we get disappointed by a brand. I think there a research from Gartner saying 32% of people will leave a brand after two bad experiences. So that's truly impactful to if you're thinking about your retention. So we as marketers need to lead in advocating for customers throughout our organizations, representing their voice with our ongoing research and collaborating with our business partners to deliver growth. 00:16:07:07 - 00:16:36:16 Sue So that's kind of the core on the research. We talk about measurement. And and I think about measurement as a way to help prioritize initiatives and demonstrate the impact, of CX. So Lesley, you talked about Roxy. We call it return on experience at PWC, it's when we start to organizations start to achieve their CX vision. You can quickly realize there is a lot to be done. 00:16:36:18 - 00:17:02:01 Sue And just, you know, mentioning the research helps us understand and prioritize the problems we solve at solving. We have to break it down into what service design we call micro journeys. These micro journeys might be prioritized based on potential impact to customers, the impact to your business, and your ability to execute. So really kind of think through where should we be making these investments for change? 00:17:02:03 - 00:17:30:00 Sue The micro journey for each CX initiative. If you should be measuring the current state and then impact of the new or revised design. So you might be measuring or looking at your digital data. It might be saving time on a manual process versus an automated process. It might mean a reduction in errors. So this is really where you bring all of these elements together. 00:17:30:02 - 00:17:55:07 Sue Front of the house, middle of house, back of the house to see how that change can actually impact your business over time. You use these measurements to test and learn and you refine your micro journey. And it's so important because understanding all these components will help demonstrate the impact of cost to the organization and leadership, and start to create some momentum. 00:17:55:09 - 00:18:20:20 Sue This is where sustain really comes in. Think about how you consistently research through voice of customer programs, taking learnings to not only improve on your CX, but also your operations, your products, and your services. This is key information that needs to be shared throughout the organization to enable change. And I think this is where marketers can really shine. 00:18:20:22 - 00:18:46:12 Alison Sue, thank you so much. You shared so much great advice. You also highlighted just because it's cool and shiny doesn't mean you need to do it. And then you also calling out the mission critical role that research can play in helping both understand and then prioritize. What are the problems we're solving? We're always challenge for where to make the investment from a marketing perspective, and... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32116657

EP22 - Bridging Brand and Performance with Vivianne Gauci 07/09/2024

EP22 - Bridging Brand and Performance with Vivianne Gauci In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores balancing brand building and performance marketing with Vivianne Gauci, SVP of Consumer Experience and CMO at HomeEquity Bank. Vivianne advocates for the importance of data-driven decision-making and collaboration between brand and performance marketers to appreciate each other's value in the customer journey. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. 00:00:14:15 - 00:00:22:12 Presenter With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:14 - 00:00:45:18 Alison In today's episode, we're tackling one of the most significant challenges that's facing marketers today. Finding the optimal balance between brand building and performance marketing. It's definitely been a debate that's been going on for many, many years with passionate advocates on both sides. But what if the answer lies not in choosing one over the other, but really and strategically blending the two? 00:00:45:20 - 00:01:05:22 Alison Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Vivianne Gauci join us for an insightful conversation around finding the right balance between brand building and performance marketing. Vivianne is a Senior Vice President of Consumer Experience and Chief Marketing Officer at Home Equity Bank, where she's been leading the charge in driving business growth through a strategic blend of brand and performance marketing initiatives. 00:01:06:00 - 00:01:27:06 Alison So Vivianne is going to bring you some very real world advice and some lessons from going through the journey herself. Vivianne's worked with two global and Canadian brands, including American Express, Aviva and now Home Equity Bank. So she's bringing a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to the table. She's also really known for her data-driven approach, 00:01:27:10 - 00:01:35:16 Alison her ability to rally teams around a common vision and her unwavering focus on the customer experience. Welcome, Vivianne. I'm thrilled that you're here. 00:01:35:18 - 00:01:39:00 Vivianne Thanks for having me, Alison. I'm so excited to be here. 00:01:39:02 - 00:01:49:12 Alison I want to kick things off now with the question around, why, in your mind, has the balance between brand and performance marketing been a persistent pain point for marketers? 00:01:49:14 - 00:02:26:22 Vivianne This is such an interesting question, and I think it's because there is no right answer in terms of what the right balance is. Because there's incredible value to both, and the right balance can be different depending on the industry, on the company objectives, on the stage of growth of your company. And so if you talk to different types of marketers, you'll get different perspectives on the value of their particular discipline and the challenges inherent with the other type of discipline. 00:02:26:23 - 00:02:50:06 Vivianne So if you speak to a brand marketer, they might believe that short-term activation performance-based marketing can be a bad thing that erodes brand equity. Or it can even erode margins. And then if you talk to performance-based marketers, you'll find that they sometimes think that, you know, I can't draw the direct line between brand and results. 00:02:50:06 - 00:03:07:08 Vivianne And, you know, that's what I'm used to. And as so often happens in these types of debates, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, in that there's value to both, and both short term and longer term marketing is important. 00:03:07:10 - 00:03:29:19 Alison That's such a great perspective and you're so right that there's value in both. But if you've grown up in one side or the other, it tends to actually feed the combativeness or the commitment to either brand or performance marketing. And in my experience, and often it's because if they don't have experience doing the other thing, they don't appreciate what it can deliver on how the two can necessarily work together. 00:03:29:21 - 00:03:55:17 Vivianne And, you know, for us, I think part of it is having these two types of marketers working closely together so that they can actually start to see the value in each other's practices. In fact, in one role in particular in my organization, and this is somebody who deals with communications and television as a channel specifically, they do both brand and performance. 00:03:55:19 - 00:04:19:04 Vivianne So, you know, they really get an appreciation for the value of both. But what you end up seeing is that the closer they work together, the more they understand the value in how they interact as part of the customer journey and as part of the funnel. So they actually start to see, oh, okay, so brand creates this emotional connection and creates this affinity. 00:04:19:06 - 00:04:50:12 Vivianne And then the performance marketer picks that up and picks up at that point in the journey and starts driving the customer touchpoint and driving immediate action. So you see the brand marketer triggers the emotional response, and the performance marketer triggers the action. They're both incredibly important because they're part of a continuous journey. So if you can get them working closely together, they'll understand the value of each discipline. 00:04:50:13 - 00:05:15:04 Alison I love that example in seeing the light bulbs go off from where people that are representing different points of view, and instead of feeling like they're competing for the marketing dollars, really starting to collaborate and understand that they're complementing one another and that can build to a much greater outcome than doing it just one way. So as a CMO, how do you ensure that your marketing efforts are directly contributing to the overall growth of your business? 00:05:15:06 - 00:05:38:22 Vivianne I see everything about my job as driving the overall growth of the business. And really, the first point is to understand the customer better than anyone else around the table and providing the insight that is needed to speak to them and ensuring that we're driving value to the customer. Because without starting, without driving value to the customer, you really don't have a business. 00:05:39:00 - 00:05:45:13 Vivianne So that's the first point. That's a key power, superpower, shall we say, of the of the Chief Marketing Officer. 00:05:45:15 - 00:06:06:07 Alison I totally agree that that's actually one of our superpowers. And it sounds so simple when you say it, but it can be harder to bring it to life. So as you're sitting around your executive table, really understanding your consumer to a greater degree than your colleagues possibly can, I'd love you to share a couple of examples of how you've helped them, 00:06:06:13 - 00:06:21:22 Alison the lights go off for them and the value that you can bring, whether it's on the product side or the bank delivery side, or even on the HR side, by really understanding and enlightening them with knowledge of who you're ultimately trying to attract and retain. 00:06:22:00 - 00:06:48:03 Vivianne So I saw that you, and I heard with great interest, the fact that you interviewed Raja Rajamannar from Mastercard a little while ago. And I love his point. He talks about the CMO as having to evangelize for marketing and drive credibility for the function in the organization. And really, it comes down to the ability for a marketer to use data. 00:06:48:05 - 00:07:21:10 Vivianne Data is going to be your best friend. In performance, it will give you the ability to drive the additional investment warranted. Your'll be able to prove your ability to drive performance, obviously, and then a brand, you'll use it to be able to determine what your brand activities drive in terms of behaviours. And so once you start making the connection between this brand activity drives this type of behaviour, you then have to be disciplined about tracking and presenting the data to your senior stakeholders. 00:07:21:12 - 00:07:48:16 Vivianne So really it's about making sure that data is pulled in to be able to support what you're trying to drive in terms of the overall growth of the organization. And then I guess the other key piece in here is the part where we talk about customer experience. And for me, I love the fact that our organization, customer experience falls under the umbrella of marketing. 00:07:48:18 - 00:08:23:07 Vivianne Because when you think about it, customer experience has three key elements. I like to think of it as discovery, design, and delivery. And in discovery, you're listening to your customer and understanding them deeply. Again, back to the CMO superpower of understanding the customer better than anyone else. What needs are not being met? How does the brand resonate? And so you really have this incredible power, being integral or having the customer experience side of the equation under your wings to make sure that you can understand that very deeply. 00:08:23:09 - 00:08:46:13 Vivianne And then the elements of design and delivery is important because you can build an incredible marketing program, but if you can't deliver on the customer side of the equation, then you can waste a lot of resources. And you have to understand the journey that customers are taking. And it starts with their first interaction with the brand. It doesn't start necessarily, even on your website. 00:08:46:13 - 00:09:13:18 Vivianne It starts with potentially something that they see out in the market in terms of a brand ad and then the next touchpoint might be a piece of your performance marketing, and then they start to engage with you in the organization. And so what happens there? Maybe there's a nurturing experience and then fulfillment and loyalty. So if you start to see that it's all part of the funnel, you can see how also the elements are so integrated. 00:09:13:19 - 00:09:39:13 Alison I really like how you distilled it down to discover, design and deliver. It really helps keep you grounded as you're immersed in all aspects of that. So, Vivianne, I'd love to hear about your experience advocating for brand investment at Home Equity Bank and to walk us through that journey. I know from our earlier discussion it wasn't quick, as these things tend not to be, and there are inevitable sort of pivots and bumps along the road. 00:09:39:19 - 00:09:57:10 Alison But to really understand how you got your own team on board, what were some of the challenges that you faced when making the case to the executive leadership team? And you also were doing this in a time where the economy was a little bit challenged, which would have added a whole other level of difficulty, I suspect, to what you successfully delivered. 00:09:57:12 - 00:10:22:12 Vivianne Getting, you asked about the team, and getting the team on board was probably the easiest thing, the immediate team, because when you're predominantly a performance-based marketing organization, as we used to be, you know, you can actually start to see and feel where your performance marketing starts to get a bit sluggish. And you start to immediately think, oh, I've got to start thinking longer term, I, I have to start thinking, fill the top of that funnel. 00:10:22:14 - 00:10:52:07 Vivianne So, you know, that's an interesting part of the equation because as performance marketers, you're seeing that very immediately and you're measuring that. You're seeing very quickly that you need to start thinking differently. And we didn't have it quite then yet. But we were also thinking, okay. And down the line we might have potential competitors. And so how do you start creating that moat to help protect us against any potential incursions? 00:10:52:09 - 00:11:15:04 Vivianne So from there, you know, the good news was that there was broad recognition that thinking about brand would be good for the company, that we needed a bit of a refresh and we needed to think longer term. So that helped. But, you know, I won't lie. We, we stumbled when we came out with our new brand. We shortchanged ourselves a bit. 00:11:15:06 - 00:11:39:13 Vivianne And so to create the splash that we wanted in brand, we slowed down on our performance investment. And this actually hurt us. And so we we actually had to retrench. So we had a bit of a learning, learning exercise. We took a pause. We got everything back to where it needed to be. And then we said, okay, let's explore what happened, because this is a learning, right. 00:11:39:14 - 00:12:10:00 Vivianne So we we went in and we started analyzing all the data. And this is where I found what I considered to be another one of our marketing heroes, which is Binet and Field. The Long and the Short Of It. It's a famous study, and I was able to use that to help illustrate what actually happened to us. And that, yes, we had some short term negative impacts which, believe it or not, actually helped solidify our performance marketing investment because I was like, okay, we can't do that again. 00:12:10:01 - 00:12:27:23 Vivianne I said, no, we can't do that again. But because of the analysis and we were able to kind of isolate, this is what happened when we were, you know, primarily brand. And this is what happens when we have a combination. And this is what happens when we are only performance. I was able to show them some of the green shoots. 00:12:27:23 - 00:12:56:01 Vivianne Of course, brand takes longer, but I was able to show some of the green shoots of where brand was starting to help us make a difference, both qualitatively and quantitatively. So, and again, it's back to those the, you know, thinking about what are the key metrics that brand investment helps to drive that aren't necessarily, you know, fully fleshed out and tied to the end result, but they are critical to starting getting the funnel going. 00:12:56:03 - 00:13:16:09 Vivianne And so I showed research that just talked not about just sales results, but also about the company values, the other thing that I would say. So I tried to elevate the discussion that it wasn't just about our short term results, it was about some longer medium term results. And then I elevated it even further to talk about the overall value to the company 00:13:16:09 - 00:13:31:03 Vivianne as a company. So the fact that brand investment could actually drive company value, and that's where I think it started to really resonate. So I think that third element of bringing it up to a higher level also helped. 00:13:31:05 - 00:13:51:11 Alison Thank you for being so open and sharing some of the challenges that you managed through in a time like that, especially in an organization that had really depend depending on performance marketing and you were driving change to also bring brand to it, knowing the long term benefits of that, for sure, when it doesn't work fresh out of the gate, it certainly test your resolve. 00:13:51:11 - 00:14:13:12 Alison I loved how you sort of retrenched and pivoted and used research and data, and also your knowledge around the green sprouts. Like you did see some early wins and some reasons to believe and stay committed to it. But clearly you leveraged very powerfully in convincing the rest of the organization. So kudos to you, because I know that's definitely not easy work. 00:14:13:14 - 00:14:30:06 Alison Now, speaking of challenges, I also know that the pandemic forced many marketing plans to change course and you were not immune. So can you share an example of how you had to adapt your brand messaging in response to how Canadian consumer needs were changing, and as well as their sentiments during that time. 00:14:30:08 - 00:14:54:16 Vivianne We'd probably been less than a year into our renewed level of brand investment after I had to make the case to get that brand investment back and and all of a sudden, March 2020 hit. And so we were at the time, we were showing an ad. It was our, I call it the sprinkler ad that for those of you who aren't familiar, this is for our product, the CHIP Reverse Mortgage. 00:14:54:18 - 00:15:16:19 Vivianne But it was a brand ad, and it was one of the ads that showed a real estate agent coming to a couple in our demographic that we like to say age 55 and better. And, you know, it was, you know, she was coming knocking once again to see if they were ready to sell their home. And so the wife says, oh, boy, here comes that real estate agent again. 00:15:16:19 - 00:15:43:15 Vivianne And husband says, don't worry, I got this. And you know, he basically clicks on a clicker and it turns on the sprinklers and he soaks the real estate agent. And so the couple has a chuckle and, and it's you know, it's all in great fun. And up until that time, and it was it's funny, that ad resonated so well because usually our audience in other ads, not ours, but in other ads in the media, we did a study. 00:15:43:17 - 00:16:07:17 Vivianne What we saw was our audience, our our demographic of age 55 and better is often the butt of the jokes, is often the target of the jokes. Right? And believe it or not, you know, they're treated in a very patronizing way. They're minimized. And in this case, they were the ones in, in on the joke. Right? They were making the joke. 00:16:07:17 - 00:16:30:05 Vivianne So so that, you know, that was really empowering and resonated so well with our audience. And we got like, maybe 1 or 2 complaints from real estate agents when we first aired the ad and, you know, we said, okay, well, we understand, you know, we get it. The joke was on them, but then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and everyone was locked down at home. 00:16:30:11 - 00:16:55:06 Vivianne Everyone was feeling a little bit more sensitive, anxious and, you know, some very real emotions close to the surface. And now all of a sudden, we started getting complaints from our customers. And, you know, that maybe, maybe we were being a bit mean to the poor real estate agent. And so we realized, okay, you know, and again, another great reason why it's good to have CX close to the organization. 00:16:55:06 - 00:17:19:03 Vivianne We were hearing this directly from our contact centre, which reported to me. And, you know, we said, okay, maybe it's time we have to stop these ads and pivot. And when we did that, we went to our agency, Zulu Alpha Kilo. And they were able to help us pivot quite quickly with some user-generated content around the theme of, you know, very relevant at the time, 00:17:19:03 - 00:17:37:18 Vivianne Home is Everything. Because everybody was at home at the time and it was, you know, we were able to get those ads out in record time and those tested incredibly well and did really well for us as well, because it was the right message for the time. And people were were happy to hear it. 00:17:37:20 - 00:18:00:00 Alison Vivianne, that's a great example. It's also a great example of how quickly consumer sentiment can change certainly when there's a compelling event like a pandemic, and the way that you were able to once again pivot and really draw on an insight that was also a result of the pandemic where Home is Everything so quickly, really is powerful. I also have to say, I love that - 55 and better. 00:18:00:05 - 00:18:04:02 Alison I'm gonna definitely be using that. 00:18:04:04 - 00:18:08:06 Vivianne We get we get a lot of, compliments on that, actually. 00:18:08:08 - 00:18:11:18 Alison It's very true. That's a mindset we should all embrace. 00:18:11:20 - 00:18:13:02 Vivianne Absolutely. 00:18:13:04 - 00:18:30:18 Alison So how important is it to have the CEO's buy in on marketing as being a key driver of business strategy, and as someone with a performance marketing background, how did you go about establishing trust and credibility with the C-suite before advocating for the brand investments that you were able to successfully... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/32054347

EP21 - Strategy's Role in Creativity with Shelley Brown 06/20/2024

EP21 - Strategy's Role in Creativity with Shelley Brown In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, hosts Shelley Brown, Chief Strategy Officer at FCB Canada and a judge at the 2024 Cannes Lions Festival. Shelley shares her insights on emerging trends, the crucial link between creativity and effectiveness, and the evolving role of strategy in award-winning work based on her experience judging the Direct category at this year's festival. 00:00:00:00 - 00:00:23:20 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:23:22 - 00:00:49:07 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to give you an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at what it's like to be a judge at the Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity, focusing on the strategic aspect of award winning work today. Our guest is Shelley Brown, the highly accomplished Chief Strategy Officer at FCB Canada. Shelley's's advertising career includes award winning work with leading multinationals including BBDO and now FCB, as well as top independents. 00:00:49:09 - 00:01:12:19 Alison One fun and somewhat concerning fact about Shelley is that she was once held by a member of the Khmer Rouge with a rocket launcher. Seriously. Shelley was selected to judge the Direct category at this year's Cannes Lions with an enviable career and strategic mindset that's contributed to many creative awards. I'm really excited to have Shelley guide us through the inner workings of judging her festival. 00:01:12:21 - 00:01:43:07 Alison Throughout our discussion today, we'll explore Shelley's personal experience with Cannes Lions, from her first time attending to what inspired her to become a judge this year. We're also diving into the essential role that strategy plays in creating winning campaigns and discussing the relationship between strategy and creativity, and how it's changed over the years. Shelley is also going to share her thoughts on how the Cannes Lions Festival itself is evolving to mirror the shifts in our industry and then move towards more business-focused, result-driven work, something that's a passion for both of us. 00:01:43:09 - 00:01:56:06 Alison We're also going to discuss the crucial connection between creativity, effectiveness and award winning work, exploring how agencies and brands can better demonstrate and communicate the business impact of our creative efforts. So welcome, Shelley. 00:01:56:08 - 00:01:57:11 Shelley Thank you. 00:01:57:12 - 00:02:05:12 Alison Now, before we chat about judging at Cannes, our listeners absolutely won't forgive me if I don't start by getting the story about the Khmer Rouge. 00:02:05:14 - 00:02:32:06 Shelley Okay. All right. We'll get that one out of the way. In 1993, my husband and I were traveling in Cambodia, which was in 1993, probably a pretty crazy thing to do. The UN was nominally in control of most of the country, but the Khmer Rouge were still active in certain parts of the country. But we were absolutely determined to go and see Angkor Wat, which once we finally got there, we definitely had to ourselves. 00:02:32:08 - 00:02:54:18 Shelley The monks were still burning the jungle back around the ruins so that you could see the temples. It was pretty amazing. But one day we were off to see another temple a little bit further away, and we were not aware that the front line had moved during the night. And so we actually crossed into what was that day Khmer Rouge territory. 00:02:54:20 - 00:03:21:02 Shelley But we figured it out when what I thought was a kid, he might have been 17, jumped out of the jungle into the road, which was, you know, there were bomb craters and it was a bit of a mess. We were in a 4x4 with an armed guard and driver and a police officer accompanying us. Anyway, he pointed the rocket launcher at the car and, you know, our trusty police officer, armed guard and guide, they all just froze 00:03:21:04 - 00:03:56:00 Shelley And just sat there. And eventually the kid with the rocket launcher approached the car and I figured, okay, I have no idea what to do. Didn't speak enough Khmer to really be able to communicate. And so I just started grabbing handfuls of money out of my money belt and threw them through the window at his feet. And when he was satisfied that the pile of money was large enough, he just made a "okay" gesture with his hands and, picked up the money and walked away. /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/31822647

EP20 - Judging Cannes and the Future of Creativity with Stephanie Yung 06/18/2024

EP20 - Judging Cannes and the Future of Creativity with Stephanie Yung In this episode of CMA Connect, the CMA's CEO, Alison Simpson, sits down with Stephanie Yung, Chief Design Officer at Zulu Alpha Kilo. As a judge at the prestigious 2024 Cannes Lions, Stephanie shares her unique insights on the emerging themes in the creative industry, her experience reviewing groundbreaking work from around the globe and her predictions for the future of creativity. 00:00:00:17 - 00:00:21:13 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:21:15 - 00:00:47:20 Alison In today's episode, I'm thrilled to bring you an inside look of what it's like to be a judge in the prestigious Cannes Lions International Festival of Creativity. Joining us is the incredibly talented Stephanie Yung, a true creative powerhouse and also the chief design officer for Zulu Alpha Kilo. As a globally recognized design leader, - Stephanie has extensive experience in the strategic translation of brands into new product services and experience. 00:00:47:22 - 00:01:20:04 Alison She's often sought out for her ability to establish brand visions for the future, and she has advised and collaborated with audiences ranging from the most recognized brands in the world to brand new startups, and from venture capitalists to nonprofit organizations. So she has a very diverse view and expertise that we are sure to benefit from today. Over the years, Stephanie's work has been recognized at every major award show, including DNAD, Cannes, The One Show, Fast Company's Innovation by Design and in fact, she has won eight Cannes Lions. 00:01:20:06 - 00:01:38:20 Alison So with that pedigree, it's definitely not surprising that Stephanie was selected as a judge for the industry craft category at this year's Cannes Lions Awards. Stephanie is bringing a wealth of knowledge and insights to our audience today, from her early days as a young creative winning her very first Lion to now being on the other side of the judging table. 00:01:39:02 - 00:01:59:16 Alison Stephanie's journey is definitely inspiring. So in this episode, we're diving deep into the Cannes Lion judging process and what it's like to review and discuss work from around the world. Stephanie will also share her early observations on trends and themes that she's noticed in the entries, and how the experience has really made her feel about the future of creativity in our industry. 00:01:59:18 - 00:02:02:07 Alison So with that, a very warm welcome to Stephanie. 00:02:02:09 - 00:02:03:23 Stephanie Thank you so much for having me. 00:02:04:01 - 00:02:15:18 Alison So, Stephanie, many creatives and marketers absolutely dream about winning a Cannes Lion. And I'd like to start by having you share what your very first experience was like winning a Lion and attending Cannes. 00:02:15:21 - 00:02:37:12 Stephanie Yes. I mean, it was, gosh, I'm going to date myself, but I think it was over 15 years ago, around, and so, you know, just where I was in my career is definitely the early days. And I was the senior designer. I mean, from that point of view, I feel like winning Cannes obviously is just such an honour, but really the ability to attend. 00:02:37:12 - 00:02:58:19 Stephanie I think what it did, especially where I was in that point in my career, really expanded my aperture I'd say, just in terms of what creativity could do and the impact of it, as well as I'd say from the point of view of Canadians, Canadians being right up there, being able to set the benchmark with just the rest of the world or for the world. 00:02:58:21 - 00:03:19:07 Stephanie And I feel like it really informed me in the sense that I don't know if I would have ever gone to New York, because I did work there for over decades, because it's just the idea of like the possibilities. That's what it really did for me. And, you know, also obviously reinforcing that creativity really can impact business and people's lives. 00:03:19:09 - 00:03:46:19 Alison That's such a great perspective. And often in Canada, we can be a little too humble about our capabilities and our talent. So to see how we really stack up and are outperforming our country's reputation on the global stage for creativity. I love the fact that that led to you taking a very different direction in your career and realizing that you could absolutely compete and succeed and thrive in New York City and some of the best advertising destinations in the world. 00:03:46:19 - 00:03:52:18 Alison So that's a great to learning to come back with, and the fact that you brought back a Lion certainly doesn't hurt either. 00:03:52:20 - 00:03:53:03 Stephanie Yeah, that's true. 00:03:53:03 - 00:04:17:08 Alison When I think about how our country has progressed in the 15 years since I was in Cannes, probably about the same time. But every year I've been thrilled to see we're winning more and more Lions, and we seem to keep upping the ante and upping the success of our country every year. Now, to the point where we're actually rivaling London as one of the top countries in bringing home Lions. 00:04:17:10 - 00:04:37:22 Alison So obviously, from a marketing profession and from a creativity perspective, that is incredibly inspiring and motivating for us as Canadians. And I'm excited to see us set yet a new standard in the number of Lions we bring home this year. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what do you think is driving that, and our increased success at the Cannes Festival? 00:04:38:00 - 00:05:13:15 Stephanie Yeah, that's well, first of all, just in terms of the count, the count of Lions growing. I didn't know it, I didn't know it was like to that extent, which is pretty amazing. That's a really good question. If I were to think about it, I think it's perhaps just in terms of, you know, when we look at how people viewed creativity back then and the possibilities, I feel like our marketers, brands, businesses and organizations, their realization that creativity can impact business as well as people's real lives 00:05:13:15 - 00:05:27:13 Stephanie I feel like maybe opened up projects and opened up, I'd say, different types of problem solving and solutions. So that's probably why, because we are solving more problems through creativity. 00:05:27:15 - 00:05:31:05 Alison So what inspired you to apply to be a judge for the Cannes Lions this year? 00:05:31:07 - 00:05:56:14 Stephanie So it is very different in terms of like where I am now in my career. Obviously, I know it sounds really nerdy, but I think the opportunity to really be exposed to and connected to the most awe-inspiring work in the world is something that I really wanted to to do, but also, I feel like getting the time to actually get into rich discussions and learning different point of views and perspectives that are hopefully eye-opening. 00:05:56:14 - 00:06:15:13 Stephanie And I say that because, you know, when you think about, even in Canada, and I know I keep on, you know, coming back, just the idea of being Canadian, I just think we're a country made of so many different ethnicities and cultures. I feel like to hear more from other people's perspectives will only really make us stronger, and our general understanding of how to reach people here. 00:06:15:15 - 00:06:26:23 Stephanie And so I've always been just really interested in connecting with people and just in terms of learning about behaviours and cultures and what we can do to, I think, really add value. 00:06:27:01 - 00:06:46:05 Alison Such a great perspective. Now, I know that you're going to be on the plane soon, heading to Cannes. And when you haven't judged before, I was under the perception that all the judging happened once you arrived. And clearly I was wrong. So I'd love to have you walk us through the judging process and the commitment involved, because I know it is significant. 00:06:46:06 - 00:07:05:21 Stephanie So yeah, judging involves two stages. The first stage is actually virtual, which is the one that you're talking about, where we really do create a shortlist and that's done independently. And then the second stage is when we're on site and in that room, as we're saying, and having those rich discussions, and that occurs over a two day period. 00:07:05:21 - 00:07:27:13 Stephanie And that's when we really award what is shortlisted a bronze, silver and gold Lion. But in terms of just like, what does it entail, and the commitment required when looking at each entry? Each entry has a written submission. So that's really a time where people can tell the jurors really what the creative strategy was, the concept execution. 00:07:27:15 - 00:07:52:02 Stephanie And then there's a case film and then there's like presentation images and supporting material. And I mean, I think we all can recognize that Cannes really is a career changer and has a possibility to change people's lives. And in saying that, really do take the time to look at each entry and understand the social and cultural context, because this is a global kind of pool of work and platform. 00:07:52:04 - 00:08:20:10 Stephanie And I think also take the time to have that unbiased point of view. And so really, when evaluating the work, I'd say it really is leveraging the same principles that you do, and like I do in my day to day job. And so that really is looking at like, does it have the concept, does it have that level of craft because that is the category, is it original enough and will it have impact or does it for the brand and for the people it's trying to reach. 00:08:20:12 - 00:08:33:05 Stephanie And you know, so that's really how the process is and what we're looking for or what I'm looking for more specifically, when awarding or shortlisting the work. 00:08:33:07 - 00:08:53:06 Alison So I love that you're taking this seriously because as you say, it is a career changer, so... And I can imagine, I've judged other awards when you're going through so many submissions, you really have to hold yourself accountable because you, you at times want to take a shortcut. And you also called out the being aware of the biases that we each bring to it. 00:08:53:06 - 00:09:08:03 Alison So thank you on behalf of all the people that are hoping to win a Cannes Lion that you're judging, for making that a priority. Can you talk a bit about what you're doing to try to minimize your bias as well, as you're going through the process? 00:09:08:05 - 00:09:33:21 Stephanie Well, thanks for asking that question. I, I do think it's about being really, taking the time, I'd say, to be thoughtful and to really go through the submission. To really ask yourself, like or myself, when I'm going through it, why am I having this reaction? Is it based on any maybe biased thinking I have, whether that's in something that I might not... 00:09:33:23 - 00:09:57:21 Stephanie I'll give you an example. Something that might not be an issue that we face here. We might think, oh, is that, you know, not as important. But that's what I mean. That's based on our experience because we surely can't understand. So I feel like it's taking the time to understand the context of the work and then questioning, you know, is this delivering that versus making assumptions. 00:09:57:23 - 00:10:16:17 Alison So, Stephanie, right now you're judging virtually and independently. When you get off the plane and arrive in Cannes, you're obviously going to be coming together in person with your fellow judges for the Industry Craft Awards. And I'd love you to share a little bit about how you think that dynamic will change and what you're most looking forward to in that. 00:10:16:19 - 00:10:38:11 Stephanie I think when you're in person, you know, there's more of an ability to, I think, have an open conversation. And what I mean by that, so when we spoke about biases in the beginning, I feel like a person representing of that country could really talk about how the work might be effective or talk about some nuances that we might not understand. 00:10:38:13 - 00:11:05:08 Stephanie And so I feel like it gives space and room for understanding and for looking at the work through a 360 lens and really having a debate around it and its merits and why it was successful, why it was shortlisted and why it deserves to win. And so I really do feel like it's that added context and being able to see points of view that I might not have alone, you know, being a designer, that's my background. 00:11:05:10 - 00:11:18:19 Stephanie There are judges who have other backgrounds than me, and so I feel like that point of view altogether will really give out a well-rounded recommendation of really, what's the best? And our point of view of what the best is in the world. 00:11:18:23 - 00:11:35:15 Alison That's great. I suspect there will be some very healthy debates as well, so I'm sure that will be a fascinating part of it. And I also think that given the intensity of what you're going to be going through in person, I suspect there's also going to be some really great relationships and friendships formed with your fellow judges. 00:11:35:17 - 00:11:56:16 Stephanie This is what I hear. I mean, the past judges that I've spoken with, I mean, I feel like that's the biggest thing too, so when you asked earlier about, why did I want to judge? I feel like really the opportunity to meet creative people from around the world who are interested in the same things you are and who are trying to push their own field and work and in their own countries 00:11:56:16 - 00:12:00:23 Stephanie I feel like is something that I'm really excited about as well, for sure. 00:12:01:01 - 00:12:06:12 Alison Stephanie, I'd love you to share are there any early trends or themes that you're noticing in the entries that you've reviewed? 00:12:06:14 - 00:12:26:01 Stephanie Yes, there definitely are. I think when we think of craft in general, you know, it has the ability to move you and to make you feel, and I think that's what I was saying is a superpower. And as well, you know, I feel like Cannes, a show like Cannes, really is a reflection of things that are happening in the culture at any given moment. 00:12:26:03 - 00:12:45:03 Stephanie And so these are themes that, because as you were saying, I've also been judging a lot of different shows and and even like in speaking with people in I would say parallel fields or people in the industry, not necessarily in advertising squarely, but in culture creating so on and so forth. I feel like there are some emerging themes. 00:12:45:05 - 00:13:05:18 Stephanie And so if we're looking at craft as a way to really bring feeling to work, people do that in different ways. And so the things I'm starting to see is nostalgia as craft. So it's really about trying to connect with people by harkening back to like a past time, and I feel like you really do see that in music as well. 00:13:05:18 - 00:13:28:13 Stephanie So whether you're referencing a different time and place through photography, typography or art direction, that is really something that we see. As well as imperfection as craft. And I feel like you see it everywhere, but things that, you know, it feels like something authored it. It's not about perfection. It's actually about seeing that human hand or that idea of a person behind it. 00:13:28:13 - 00:13:54:20 Stephanie And perhaps I feel like with the hot topic of AI, that may be a reason why we are seeing more of that, or the want for that and the reflection of that. And then lastly, I'd say, reduction as craft. And what I mean by that is really boiling something down to its most purest form of expression. And so those were the three I've seen so far, mind you, that might change as we like talk. 00:13:54:20 - 00:14:02:02 Stephanie And there might be more obviously, that emerge, but those are some themes that I've been noticing in craft in general. 00:14:02:04 - 00:14:16:07 Alison Many thanks for sharing that, Stephanie. Now I'd like to close our discussion, you've got a such an enviable career. I know our listeners would love to hear from you, one piece of advice that you would offer for everyone that's tuned in today. 00:14:16:09 - 00:14:39:00 Stephanie This is always a hard question, but I think in keeping, you know, if we're keeping with our topic of just creating like world class breakthrough work. So if I were to keep with that theme or topic, it's really, I'd say get comfortable with the uncomfortable. And you know, what I mean by that is whenever we're creating something new, it doesn't feel comfortable at all. 00:14:39:02 - 00:14:59:03 Stephanie Whenever we're trying to do something different and go against what everyone else is doing, we really do have to, like, brave through it, kind of embrace uncomfortable and and work through it because, you know, just in terms of right now where we are in the world, I feel like we're very heavily reliant on data and things like that. 00:14:59:03 - 00:15:12:05 Stephanie And so, we at this point and the point of that is we need to trust our own experience to really work through it and take that creative and strategic leap, because that's really when true transformation and impact can happen. 00:15:12:07 - 00:15:31:23 Alison I love that advice from a professional perspective. I also love that advice from a personal perspective because every industry is changing, the marketing industry is going through massive change and at a pace that very few other industries are facing. So the reality is that everyone in our profession, if we don't get comfortable with being uncomfortable, it's not going to be a lot of fun. 00:15:32:01 - 00:15:57:16 Alison So Stephanie, thank you for the great advice. Thank you for making time in your very busy schedule to share the first part of your Cannes judging process with us. It's absolutely been a delight. When our listeners are tuning in to today's discussion, you will be off the plane in Cannes, working with your co-judges on the industry craft awards and making some really great decisions and ultimately changing some careers with the decisions that you're making. 00:15:57:16 - 00:16:03:11 Alison So I really appreciate the time you spent with us today, and I'm excited to connect with you when you get back from Cannes. 00:16:03:12 - 00:16:09:10 Stephanie Thanks so much for having me. 00:16:09:12 - 00:26:31:00 Presenter Thanks for joining us. Be sure to visit the CMA.ca and sign up for your free My CMA account. It's a great way to stay connected and benefit from the latest marketing, thought leadership, news, and industry trends. /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/31752232

EP19 - Leo Burnett's Vision for HumanKind, with Ben Tarr, and Tahir Ahmad 06/04/2024

EP19 - Leo Burnett's Vision for HumanKind, with Ben Tarr, and Tahir Ahmad In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA's CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Ben Tarr, President, and Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer of Leo Burnett Group Canada, to explore the groundbreaking Humankind Study. Together, they unpack the study's revelations, challenge assumptions, and offer invaluable wisdom to navigate the evolving landscape. 00:00:00:17 - 00:00:22:06 Presenter Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson. 00:00:22:08 - 00:00:43:08 Alison In today's episode, we're going behind the scenes of a highly insightful and much talked about Canadian marketing research study, the HumanKind Study from Leo Burnett. Since it launched in Canada just a few short years ago, this annual report has gained really strong momentum and secured coverage from major media outlets and generated quite a bit of buzz across the industry for its look into the minds of Canadian consumers. 00:00:43:10 - 00:01:05:02 Alison It's my pleasure today to introduce the president of Leo Burnett Group in Canada, Ben Tarr, alongside their chief strategy officer, Tahir Ahmad, who helped bring the HumanKind Study to life. They're going to share the origin story of how this great initiative went from just an idea to now becoming a highly anticipated flagship report. It's also now expanded into new markets, including the US. 00:01:05:04 - 00:01:40:09 Alison We'll also explore key milestones, some of the unexpected benefits, and their vision for the study's future as it continues to gain traction. Perhaps most importantly, Ben and Tahir will reveal some of this year's most compelling insights, that are challenging assumptions, and conventional wisdom about everything from the evolving Canadian mindset to demographic nuances across our country. With the newly added U.S. data, we're also going to dive into some of the fascinating cross-border comparisons and discuss how Canadian brands can activate against these human-centric insights through authentic, purpose-driven marketing that can really resonate. 00:01:40:11 - 00:01:42:18 Alison So, Ben and Tahir, it's a pleasure to welcome you today. 00:01:42:20 - 00:01:45:18 Ben Thank you for having us, Alison. Great to be here. 00:01:45:20 - 00:01:57:02 Alison Now, the HumanKind study has gained impressive momentum since its beginning a few years ago in Canada. I'd love you to share the origin story behind what motivated Leo Burnett to embark on this annual initiative. 00:01:57:04 - 00:02:19:14 Ben We came together as a new leadership team about five years ago, and we sat down and looked at the changing landscape of the industry and what was happening here in Canada and the seismic shifts that were happening for us as what we were known as an advertising agency. And we really looked inward, what it was we truly did for clients using the power of creativity to transform human behaviour. 00:02:19:16 - 00:02:50:03 Ben And so we went through a period of, you know, self-reflection, looking at what we've been doing w ell, spent time with our clients to understand where our true value lay. And what we found was it was really beyond advertising, you know, but it really is about thinking of new experiences for brands, new products or service initiatives. And so we decided to reposition from an advertising agency to what we call creative consultancy, where we're delivering value to our clients through the power of creativity. 00:02:50:05 - 00:03:18:17 Ben And one of the things that we really wanted to stand tall on was, comes from a quote actually from Leo Burnett, which is - what helps people, helps business. And thanks to Tahir and his team, we've always had a really robust strategic centre of excellence here. But one thing that we all felt was missing was, not just from our agency, from Canada as well, was a deeper understanding of Canadians, who they are, how they're feeling, how Canada is evolving. 00:03:18:19 - 00:03:38:08 Ben Because as many marketers will know, we are often reliant on data from the U.S. and we always think about ourselves as, well we're similar to the U.S., so we can just borrow from them. We felt like it was something that that wouldn't just help clients, but it would also prove out the fact that we were more of a creative consultancy. 00:03:38:08 - 00:03:41:16 Ben So that's where the idea stemmed from. 00:03:41:18 - 00:04:04:14 Tahir I think for, as strategists, I would just say selfishly, it was to Ben's point, it was just a constant struggle to get Canadian insights and intelligence. And so when you think about how we were approaching every brief and every client and doing bespoke research for each and every one of them to try and understand ways that brands can help solve people's problems. 00:04:04:14 - 00:04:27:04 Tahir It became quite obvious to us that the country and the industry as a whole benefit from something that was, went deeper across the country and was something that we could run every year. Year one, it was not intended to be a Covid report. And so when we when we first had this idea, which truthfully started as, wouldn't it be really interesting to know what the top ten human problems are in Canada? 00:04:27:05 - 00:04:46:08 Tahir How do you even boil that ocean that, that just that was the initial sort of challenge and thought we just sort of sat around a room and said, we have a ton of concerns and issues and tensions and problems and so on. Imagine if you could get that into a top six, top eight, top ten list. And so we set out to do that through our research. 00:04:46:08 - 00:05:18:18 Tahir And then Covid took over. And so it very much became a Covid report, represent the state of people's minds and well-being in Canada at that time. But I'm proud that it's it's now continued on and is now in its third edition. And it's gotten bigger and better, as you mentioned, Alison, off the top, that we've added a massive market in the U.S. and we've continued to fine tune our research methodology to just continue to really get into and under the skin and into the heads of Canadians. 00:05:18:20 - 00:05:43:09 Ben I think that's truly been the thing that we've been involved in more and more is, how can brands take and play an active role in solving these problems. In identifying the problems that Canadians are facing, we then have massive opportunities for brands to take a leadership position in solving some of those problems. So it just comes back to that amazing quote of what's good for people is good for business. 00:05:43:09 - 00:05:48:16 Ben And if we can truly be there to help people, then the business is going to succeed. 00:05:48:18 - 00:06:04:07 Alison So now I'd like you to share what were some of the most surprising and noteworthy findings in this year's Canadian report, and how do this year's insights compare to the first two years of your study, especially when we consider the evolving economy and post-pandemic environment? 00:06:04:09 - 00:06:30:02 Tahir What I found surprising was the shift in people's mindset. And in so far as, no longer accepting or resigned to the status quo of their lives. So if we look at the previous years, and again, as I mentioned, we launched on the heart of Covid. There was a lot of angst. There was a lot of vulnerability. People felt as though they were dealing with something that was quite existential. 00:06:30:07 - 00:06:54:08 Tahir And then the second edition, it was very much, we've come out of this, but, is this the best life's going to get? I thought everything would change. We put Covid behind us. We're all back together. Shouldn't my life be great? Actually, people were staring at a looming recession and a housing crisis and a simmering war globally. And so it just felt as though people were just like, maybe I'll just take my hand off the wheel of life and just sort of see where this goes. 00:06:54:10 - 00:07:11:19 Tahir Which at the time did feel a little dire. I think this year what we saw is this almost defiance from Canadians. There are fed up, no longer willing to just give up on life. And in fact, they were saying, no, life can be better. And I want the life that I thought I was supposed to have or that I was promised. 00:07:11:19 - 00:07:37:11 Tahir I want that now. And so it gave us actually quite a bit of energy to see that it's not a nation full of wallowers and pessimists. Yes, in some ways. And to Ben's point, there's data that supports this that people are hanging on by the skin of their teeth in some instances, but at the same time that they feel more resilient and more, I would say, empowered to want to make life better for themselves and for others. 00:07:37:11 - 00:07:42:07 Tahir So that was, I think, a little surprising, but also really encouraging. 00:07:42:10 - 00:08:06:08 Ben For me, it was staggering how lonely the country feels, at a time where we're well beyond lockdown and being isolated, and that feeling of isolation where we're all, what feels like we are back together, we're celebrating things together. We're playing together, we're out having fun together. It was staggering, some of the stats that came back in terms of how lonely people are feeling. 00:08:06:10 - 00:08:30:07 Ben And what was really surprising was it was hitting the younger generations more than any generation. So Gen Z and millennials, I think the stat was like 72% feeling lonely some of the time. And that's that's a frightening position for us to be in if we think about the next generations of this country and how they're engaging in society every day to feel lonely some of the time, 00:08:30:07 - 00:08:53:13 Ben for three quarters of millennials, to feel lonely some of the time is is a worrying facet. So I think for me that was a real shock. And also, as a parent to a Gen Z and a little younger, it was about, gosh, what should I be doing as a parent? What brands are there out there that are helping parents like me help our kids re-engage in life, in society and friendships? 00:08:53:14 - 00:08:57:06 Ben So that was like a massive shock for me, was loneliness. 00:08:57:08 - 00:09:20:22 Tahir That was what was new from last year to this year. So there was some persistent themes, and then there were a couple new ones and young and lonely was by far the biggest concern that we saw. Finances and financial well-being, it was up there as well, but in terms of just the stats that really jumped out at you as stark and demanding of attention. 00:09:21:00 - 00:09:40:07 Tahir So to Ben's point, I mean, 77% of Gen Z feels that loneliness. And again, that's a massive number. And first you kind of go, well, how is that possible? And it seems like they're online all the time with one another. And I think that that goes hand-in-hand with another big issue, which is, you know, screens being a crutch. 00:09:40:09 - 00:10:05:00 Tahir And so all of that is contributing to what maybe on the surface, seems as though this is the most hyper-connected generation ever. But the truth is, they admit that because of that excessive screen time, because of that, almost self isolation, which again, part of that was forced upon them. But now that they're out of restrictions, you know, the truth is they admit to feeling awkward around one another. 00:10:05:00 - 00:10:31:23 Tahir They admit to not knowing what to say when they are together socially. They admit to knowing that being more social would help their well-being, but they don't have the energy to be more social. And they also, they mentioned that it's just hard to find and make new friends. Both Ben and I have teenagers, and when you look at them and just go, isn't this the time in your life when that just comes very naturally and you just organically hang around one another? 00:10:32:00 - 00:10:35:19 Tahir It really just reminds us that they need help. 00:10:35:21 - 00:10:58:05 Alison So I certainly share your surprise of that. And the fact that, post-pandemic it's actually gotten worse,, makes it a massive issue that we want to and really need to address. Thanks Tahir for sharing some of the reasons behind it. And what do you think we can do with 77% of our younger Canadians feeling lonely and wanting to reengage, but not really knowing how to ? 00:10:58:06 - 00:11:01:09 Alison What can we do to support them on that journey? 00:11:01:11 - 00:11:26:10 Tahir We talk about what brands can do. In some cases, it's as simple as talking about it. I mean, you know, Bell does a really good job of that as well. And just let's talk. And one of the things that we heard in the groups is that they're giving brands permission to talk about loneliness, and that's always an interesting conversation to have with people, which is like, do brands have the right or the permission to even play in some of these issues? 00:11:26:10 - 00:11:51:14 Tahir Right. Because sometimes it just feels it could be self-serving in this particular case. And again, with the numbers this high and young people raising their hand saying, no, we need help. We need people to enable and facilitate togetherness through saying yes. Brands have permission to talk about this and actually help do something about it. We outlined in the report, you know, again thought-starters ways in for brands to help solve this. 00:11:51:16 - 00:12:18:09 Tahir One of these ways is to actually just help facilitate community coming together. You know, some interesting examples of brands that are doing that, in particular, Hershey's has one, I think it's called the Heartwarming program, where they're actually trying to teach young people social skills, so that when they do come back together, they have more confidence and they have more ability to sort of mix and engage with one another socially. 00:12:18:09 - 00:12:27:10 Tahir So I think there's just some interesting ways that brands are helping to do this. And I think a big part of it just starts with acknowledging it and talking about it. 00:12:27:12 - 00:12:49:12 Ben Yeah, I'd also say from our perspective, you know, when we look at national brands that have national footprints, retail and the shape of retail has been changing so much, the shape of what retail bricks and mortar stands for these days is very different to what it stood for in the past. You look at the proliferation of e-com and direct to home and D2C models. 00:12:49:12 - 00:13:13:14 Ben So it is also a chance for brands to rethink the physical space. You think about some of the sporting brands that bring people together for run rooms and kind of workout clubs, things like that. It is about how can we actually physically create a sense of community. I do think as a massive opportunity for national brands with big retail footprints to physically bring people together and get people off online. 00:13:13:14 - 00:13:16:22 Ben And the screens, which we've heard a lot of so... 00:13:17:00 - 00:13:34:20 Alison The other thing you mentioned that was encouraging is after the first two years of the studies, Canadians were sort of feeling beaten down and like they'd really lost a lot of control. Thankfully this year you're started to see us re-emerge and say, you know what, the heck with this, we're going to take control and we're going to make sure that we're empowered. So I'd love you to talk more about how you saw that come out in the study. 00:13:34:20 - 00:13:41:07 Alison And opportunities for brands to leverage that emerging insight for Canadian consumers. 00:13:41:09 - 00:14:10:19 Tahir Initially, just, you know, when we asked them questions about, you know, just being fearful of of, you know, what's to come or hardships to come. Just a sense of feeling more vulnerable. We saw that drop. So there is a population that is feeling more purposeful as well as less vulnerable and concerned about what they don't know what might come. We heard in the groups, is that coming out of what they've lived through, almost feels like they've faced some of the worst events that they're going to ever face. 00:14:10:19 - 00:14:39:20 Tahir But also they're not naive to think that this might not occur again. So it's almost like, now that we've gone through this and come out the other side, and we expect that there is going to be another event, another crisis, another epidemic that's going to hit us down the road, there's less of this fear. So that's what we found was interesting was that it doesn't mean that they are confident per se, but it demonstrated that they weren't afraid of what's to come, and they felt like they were taking life more head on, which was interesting. 00:14:39:22 - 00:15:05:10 Tahir Now, when you see that evidence in something like the environment. So that was still a big concern for Canadians, was the plight of the environment. But in previous years, again, we saw high stats around Earth as past the point of saving. And I think if my memory serves correctly, last year it was in and around 65% people thought that across the board, which again is very stark, it kind of just says hands off. 00:15:05:12 - 00:15:26:05 Tahir You know, what's going to happen is going to happen. There's nothing else we can do. We're just basically cruising toward our demise, and what we saw this year was a drop of, I think, approximately 32 points in that stat, to the point where, like more people now believe that the environment is in their hands and they can do something about it. 00:15:26:05 - 00:15:48:00 Tahir So again, that's just, again, one small example of how people have decided they're no longer resigned to just what will happen, will happen. They're trying to do something about it, which again, is really encouraging, and it's again a door open for brands to help spark what is already, you know, the right mindset and energy there to make change. 00:15:48:02 - 00:16:07:17 Alison So this year's study includes some data from the U.S. market for the very first time, so that can allow for some pretty interesting comparisons between Canadian and American consumers that I absolutely know our listeners will be intrigued by. So I'd love to understand some of the similarities or differences that jumped out at the two of you when you were looking at the results across North America. 00:16:07:19 - 00:16:17:11 Alison And as, are there any things that are truly unique when it comes to Canadian consumer mindsets and attitudes that were reinforced when you compare us to our American neighbours? 00:16:17:13 - 00:16:47:20 Tahir So loneliness definitely was a massive Canadian concern. So in America, there is concern that Gen Z is being affected by loneliness. It was part of a overall concern about young people's well-being. So that would include physical health, mental health. Loneliness was one aspect of that. I think for us that we saw that, like the young and the lonely being such a big problem, almost epidemic levels here in Canada, as it is in other countries around the world. 00:16:47:20 - 00:17:09:18 Tahir I think that one stood out. Interestingly, also, AI was a theme that we saw in Canada that did not bubble up in the U.S. In Canada, we certainly saw that people were against greater transparency over where AI is going, but I think more importantly that they share the benefits of it. And so we didn't see that as much in the U.S. 00:17:09:20 - 00:17:36:09 Tahir We did see the financial strains that everyone's living through here in Canada was similar in the U.S. as well. So there's real concern. And interestingly, we choose these statements intentionally just to try and get a sense for the gravity of the situation. And so in both countries across the border, there's a sense that financially, people are hanging on by the skin of teeth and that no matter how hard they work, which I think again, very much the American way, if you... /episode/index/show/ad2ad1fd-5e7c-4253-af80-c7eea10c2f1a/id/31581887

CMA Connect

TOPICS