EP44 - The Impact of Economic Uncertainty in Canada with Scott Megginson and Sean Martin

How are tariff disputes and economic uncertainty reshaping Canadian consumer behaviour? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson, welcomes Scott Megginson, President of Kantar Canada and Sean Martin, General Manager at Numerator. Their conversation explores the nuances of the "Buy Canadian" sentiment, its impact on domestic and international brands, and provides strategic advice for marketers navigating this complex landscape.

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:19
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:21 - 00:00:46:03
Alison
In today's episode, we're tackling a topic that's been dominating headlines and boardroom discussions alike. The shifting landscape of Canadian consumer behaviour in the wake of recent tariff disputes, and the global political and economic uncertainty. Joining me today are two of Canada's top insights and analytics leaders. Scott Megginson, president of Kantar Canada, is a veteran with over 30 years of market research.

00:00:46:05 - 00:01:14:17
Alison
He's held significant roles at Angus Reid Group, Warner Lambert Canada, PepsiCo Canada and has led Kantar Canada for the past 15 years. Scott, also a regular industry speaker, the past Chair of Queen's University Dean's Council of Arts and Science and the founding president of the Canadian Advisory Council for the Insights Association. Joining Scott and me today is Sean Martin, general manager at Numerator, and a trusted advisor to many of the largest companies across North America.

00:01:14:19 - 00:01:35:09
Alison
Sean also started his career working for leading brands and held senior roles at Mars, GSK and Procter Gamble before taking the lead role at Numerator, where he's led the Canadian business for five years. Scott can be sharing key insights from what Kantar is seeing about Canadians perspective and planned behaviours, and how they're changing as a result of the chaos that's emerging from south of the border.

00:01:35:11 - 00:02:01:23
Alison
He's also covering important considerations for brands. Sean will complement this by highlighting the actual ways that Canadians' behaviours have changed when it comes to their purchase decisions and actions. Together, the three of us are diving into how Canadian consumers are responding to the call to buy Canadian, as well as the risks and opportunities for both domestic and international brands, and the very delicate balance between patriotic messaging and authentic brand positioning.

00:02:02:01 - 00:02:16:01
Alison
From the pitfalls of maple washing to the surprising resilience of shopping habits, our guests will share their latest research and offer valuable advice for marketers navigating through these turbulent waters. Welcome Scott and Sean, it is an absolute pleasure to have you here today.

00:02:16:02 - 00:02:17:02
Scott
Thank you Alison.

00:02:17:04 - 00:02:19:09
Sean
Thank you Alison. Wonderful to be here.

00:02:19:11 - 00:02:28:17
Alison
Now, I'd love to have you both answer my first question. Can you each share what your organizations are doing to track Canadian consumer behaviour? And, Scott, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:28:22 - 00:02:29:15
Sean
We've been looking

00:02:29:15 - 00:02:59:14
Scott
at different ways to to really understand what Canadian consumers are feeling, because there's just there's so much out there and there's so much in chat and social and everywhere else. And that's one of the first things that we started looking at, was, using our, we call it DX analytics, but really, analyzing search and social signals to get a good understanding of how Canadian consumers are seeing brands.

00:02:59:15 - 00:03:28:15
Scott
I mean, do they see them as Canadian or not Canadian? With all the confusion of being in Canada and product of Canada and such, but also the sentiment, and that's been giving us some useful insights, both for Canadian brands and for multinationals. Secondly, there's a lot of polling and a lot of attitudinal data floating around out there, but we wanted to go a little bit deeper, and we've been engaging our Canada Monitor team to really look at the trends and how the values have shifted underneath that.

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:46:21
Scott
And we've just launched a global study. We call it Barometer. And we did this during Covid as well. But it's a global study that we're going to have results for pretty soon and we'll be sharing them out with people and how consumers in different markets are really seeing tariffs and and what their responses are and with some of their shopping habits.

00:03:46:23 - 00:04:10:19
Scott
And the third piece I think is important. It's been going back what we've learned. I mean, we've been through different crises before. I mentioned Covid. We've gone through different financial crises in the past as well. And we have a lot of learnings for brands and for advertising that we've gone back to look at and pull the dust off a bit, but also try to see which are relevant to bring back to the market for consideration.

00:04:10:20 - 00:04:13:23
Scott
So those are your three areas for us basically.

00:04:14:01 - 00:04:27:01
Alison
That's great. Scott. It will be fascinating to see how the global study around how countries around the world are reacting to tariffs. That will be very valuable insights for our listeners and certainly for Canadian brands and businesses. And Sean, what about you?

00:04:27:02 - 00:04:56:07
Sean
Yeah. Thanks, Alison. For for those that you don't know Numerator we are the largest single source data lake in Canada. And so in a nutshell we collect 12 million receipts from 165,000 Canadians, including Amazon purchases, Walmart purchases as well as hundreds of demographics. And we put it all into our data lake. And with that, we seek to understand what people are actually doing with their purchases and how their opinions are changing, how their sentiment changes, and how it's impacting purchases.

00:04:56:09 - 00:05:29:15
Sean
As it specifically relates to this, this Buy Canadian and tariff phenomenon, we've gone ahead and segmented our panel based on shoppers; claimed sentiment around their intentionality. Therefore, we now have segments for people that claim to buy Canadian, who want to avoid U.S. retailers or avoid U.S. brands. And so we're working with our clients to not only understand how their consumers are thinking about it, where they sit in this range, but also tracking their actual purchases and seeing if the sentiments they claim are results in real actions at the store.

00:05:29:17 - 00:05:54:10
Alison
And that's a really powerful part of the conversation we can have today. It's one thing to understand how Canadians across the country are feeling and planning to behave, but to actually be able to back that up with actual change in behaviour will make for a very fascinating conversation. So thank you both for being here today. Now, Scott, what is your research showing when it comes to Canadian sentiment towards Canadian brands versus American brands versus international brands?

00:05:54:12 - 00:06:20:22
Scott
This is an interesting one, Alison. And we're just starting to get into it. I'll share an example from coffee. What's more Canadian than coffee, right? But we're now digging into, ten different categories and different brands across this. And the first learning was that it's not that black and white, and it's not a clear correlation between how consumers see brands.

00:06:20:22 - 00:06:38:20
Scott
So let's call it provenance or how Canadian a brand is, or created a Canadian index, you know, from 0 to 100 of how Canadian your brand is seen. And then we looked at sentiment as well. So positive or negative. So what's associated with that? And we're getting this from search and social like I mentioned before. And it was really interesting.

00:06:38:21 - 00:06:58:12
Scott
Let's take a case of a few different brands here. And you have a brand like Second Cup. And if you look at it, Second Cup has become even more Canadian in association recently. I think a lot of that had to do with This Hour Has 22 Minutes. They have that viral thing and that's one of the brands that they called out.

00:06:58:14 - 00:07:24:08
Scott
And, but we saw that their sentiment hadn't changed versus a year ago. Now meanwhile, it has, because back in the end of last year, their sentiment took a nosedive due to some, let's just say, political statements of one of their franchisee's owners. And it was, it made the news and it took a dive. But what's happened to Second Cup is they have, shot right back up to where they were.

00:07:24:08 - 00:07:50:10
Scott
So they've recovered their sentiment and been seen as more Canadian. Then you have the big brands like Tim Hortons, which is, with all the scrutiny, is being seen as a little less Canadian as people look into ownership. But their sentiment hasn't changed that much. People love their Timmie's. And there's almost the same from McDonald's. I mean, McDonald's was never considered a Canadian brand, but their sentiment hasn't changed much, meaning,
00:07:50:11 - 00:08:21:09
Scott
or you could interpret, that it's not just about being Canadian. And that's what we're seeing with the maple washing. It's a lot more than that for a brand. The last example of that is Starbucks. And Starbucks, clearly not a Canadian brand. I mean, what could be more Seattle, than Starbucks? But their sentiment has really, really improved. So this tells us that there's, just using a microcosm here of coffee, that there's room for all brands to improve their relationships with consumers, whether they're Canadian or not.

00:08:21:09 - 00:08:26:12
Scott
And it's about getting the messaging right and the servicing right and delivering great customer experience.

00:08:26:14 - 00:08:44:15
Alison
Now, I know many Canadians are planning to buy Canadian. And Scott, as you called out, coffee is a fairly easy sector to do that in. Not all industries are as easy to buy Canadian if that's your appetite. So Sean, I'm curious to hear from you how Canadians are actually changing their buying behaviours.

00:08:44:17 - 00:09:08:05
Sean
Yeah, absolutely. And I think Scott's absolutely right. And I love the lead of it's not simple. It's a little more complicated. And we always have to remember that the Buy Canadian, you know, sentiment and uproar, which is very real for Canadians today. In fact 60% of Canadians are saying they intend to buy Canadian, yet only 40% say they intend to buy less U.S.

00:09:08:06 - 00:09:35:07
Sean
So it's very obvious that the sentiment is a positive one, a patriotic one versus one where they're seeking to punish U.S. retailers or brands. But it really is based on on the background of a, of a very difficult economy. And Buy Canada is really just one sentiment driving consumers' purchase decisions. In fact, 88% of consumers, much more than are worried about Buy Canada, are really focused on concerns around their everyday value and the impact tariffs are going to have every day.

00:09:35:09 - 00:09:56:16
Sean
And so it's critical for business owners to understand that Buy Canada is one sentiment driving purchase decisions. But it may not be, to Scott's point, as simple as the only one. And so it's incredibly important to understand overall how people are reacting when they're faced with purchasing every day. For us in our business, what we've seen is something, you know, pretty interesting and pretty diverse.

00:09:56:16 - 00:10:30:15
Sean
And really, to Scott's point, comes down to it's more complex than just Buy Canada and you really need to understand specific categories and consumers. For example, take U.S. retailers. So predominantly a lot of Canadians will say today that they are seeking to avoid U.S. retailers, some of the ones. But when you actually look at the purchase data, what you see is there's not a significant change in Canadians willing to sacrifice the convenience, the value, the location of a retail shop in order to seek out Canadian brands, or more importantly, to avoid U.S. retailers.

00:10:30:17 - 00:10:54:21
Sean
In fact, it's so extreme that in our panel, the people that came to be U.S. avoiders, people who claim to be strongly seeking to avoid U.S. retailers also haven't changed their their shopping habits at all. The fact is that these people were always shopping U.S. retailers less, and they've just found that this sentiment around avoiding U.S. retailers is a nice label to put on a habit that they've already been doing.

00:10:54:23 - 00:11:22:09
Sean
And so often we see that the sentiment doesn't overpower the cost of having to change a habit like a retailer choice. U.S. retailers continue to grow, especially where they're offering value. Now, where we see real differences is in category and brands. And absolutely, the anger driven by some of the things going on in the U.S. from tariffs is resulting in real shopping behaviours, where Canadians are willing to change their basket to match their sentiment.

00:11:22:12 - 00:11:52:19
Sean
And we see this across the board. We've done work across everything from packaged bread to mayonnaise to pet food. What you see as if you can look at shoppers today, Canadian brands, since the tariffs are growing share at a faster rate than non-Canadian brands. And even more interestingly, to kind of reinforce the power of that message when we segment our business on shoppers that say express some very strong sentiment to buying Canadian, they are growing faster than the average consumer.

00:11:52:19 - 00:12:22:20
Sean
So this is this is a a trend that has taken hold for Canadians. And in a lot of ways, and a lot of brands, they're willing to check labels in order to, to try to skew their purchases to Canadian. Now, the one thing I will say is that for all brand managers is you have to know your consumer, and you have to know your category, because we see massive differences across categories. Categories that are taste-oriented or are easy to determine the local nature of the product,

00:12:23:01 - 00:12:47:07
Sean
we see big changes and a big willingness to move. But in categories that have either have a high cost of educating yourself on is it Canadian or not? I think Scott mentioned the word maple washing or understanding, or categories like HABA or baby care, where there is a high cost to change, we're seeing a much smaller impact, even with those Canadians that say they have a very high intent to shop Canadian.

00:12:47:09 - 00:12:52:10
Sean
So again, and often that cost trumps the desire to be Canadian.

00:12:52:12 - 00:13:15:06
Scott
Those are great insights, Sean. I mean, when you look category by category too, it's other trends or consumer behaviours in the past, I know in an earlier conversation we talked about sustainability and people wanting to do a certain thing. But then there's the price to it and the cost. And then you talked about the habit of switching. I mean, switching diapers is an easy thing to do if the diapers work.

00:13:15:08 - 00:13:21:04
Scott
You know, we both have kids. But it is interesting. I mean, it's not just being Canadian that's going to do it.

00:13:21:06 - 00:13:46:06
Sean
Yeah, I agree Scott, often it is a economic choice that trumps. But we also have to remember that, you know, Canadians are at a tipping point. I think Stats Canada published the average Canadian's 97% of disposable income is now being spent. So you have to understand that there's a willingness, but there's also unfortunately, a lot of Canadians today don't have the ability or the flexibility to make a choice when it comes down to buy Canada versus not.

00:13:46:08 - 00:14:03:00
Alison
What's the role of convenience in that decision to you? So if I have the best of intentions that I want to buy Canadian, and maybe it's more challenging than I thought to find a particular Canadian brand, or comes at a premium, I understand obviously the price implications. Some people just don't have the reality to be able to spend more.

00:14:03:02 - 00:14:05:12
Alison
But is convenience playing a role in it too?

00:14:05:14 - 00:14:27:17
Sean
Absolutely. I think when you think about the regular purchasing drivers that are the overpowering reasons people choose to purchase, often for value, to find the selection they're looking for that match their product needs, Alison. And then the convenience, time, the value of time and the value in all our lives, with kids, with everything else, often trumps our intentionality of our good intentions or the things we like to say we will do.

00:14:27:19 - 00:14:49:18
Sean
And I think the other thing marketers have to realize is the barriers to being omnichannel have declined precipitously. So, you know, we continue to see online, especially in categories like CABA. While penetration has not grown since the Covid, we continue to see loyalty and buy rate increase exponentially. So those that have tried online are getting more and more comfortable.

00:14:49:18 - 00:15:08:23
Sean
And the barrier to shopping online is down. So convenience doesn't just have to be the five minute drive to your grocery store. It's convenience in a, in an omni channel as consumers shop across channels. And and that's hard to change. It is very hard to change and get rid of the convenience of going to the drugstore on the corner to get your beauty regimen.

00:15:09:01 - 00:15:18:01
Sean
It's very hard to drive by several value-oriented retailers in order to find the one, because you want to shop based on that sentiment.

00:15:18:03 - 00:15:51:08
Scott
Yeah, you know, a quick build there, actually two things. One of them is when you look at the in-store condition, too, I mean, I've done so much research over the years, both on the client side and on the current supplier side that I'm on. And shelf decisions are made in like a 200th of a second. And so right now, people are giving a little bit of extra time to, you know, use their app and scan a product or check the provenance of a specific product. That's not going to last long term, because that's just not the way people are wired when they're shopping.

00:15:51:08 - 00:16:12:09
Scott
I think it's just a blip in time for that. Convenience is very important. And that's where even the brand work we do. We talk about salience. It's critical for your products to be salient. So the top of mind when people go to make a shopping decision, you know whether it's online or whether it's an in-store. If we start dropping the ball as marketers on focusing on building salience, we're going to be in big trouble.

00:16:12:11 - 00:16:33:17
Scott
And a lot of people are sitting there, sitting and waiting right now, with all the uncertainty in the markets. But it's really a time to be getting your brand message out there. And, you know, the last piece of that's pricing, and pricing power that we talked about, and that's a whole cost and worth balance between brands. And you can't justify a premium just being Canadian, maybe for a week or two.

00:16:33:17 - 00:16:39:20
Scott
but those are things we have to think about long term. And that's the importance of brand building right now for both convenience and for price.

00:16:39:22 - 00:17:07:01
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I would love to add something. I think something Scott said, just really resonate with me. It really comes down in my mind of, do you have the product fit to your view of the consumers looking for? And but he way, if marketers are not seeking to understand at a deeper level what their consumers, both their current consumers of their products to understand what their sentiments are truly and are instead looking at the average Canadian, then, I think it was Harvard 

00:17:07:03 - 00:17:29:14
Sean
Business Review that said that any strategy built on the average is doomed to fail. And so I think understanding how do we get away from measuring the average so we can understand our consumer? So to Scott's point, we can do that connection, making sure our brands have salience is is unbelievable insight and something that we that marketers don't spend more time on right now versus worrying about the sentiment concerns and changing.

00:17:29:16 - 00:17:46:00
Alison
And, Scott, you also highlighted that Canadians who can afford to are willing to pay a bit of a premium. But the other thing that's very dangerous for marketers and brands right now is if they decide to take advantage of that and price gouge, there's been a couple of examples of that. And it's, there's never a good time to do that in my mind.

00:17:46:00 - 00:17:57:04
Alison
But now is the worst time to do that because Canadians, if they feel that they're being taken advantage of while we're trying to do what we think is right, the risk for long term business and brand damage is incredible.

00:17:57:06 - 00:18:24:19
Scott
Oh, 100%, Alison. Pricing is something that gets built up over time by a meaningful difference for a brand and building a differentiation and creating that whole value equation. And you take a look at the, now you can see they've bounced back pretty well, but take a look at the hit that Loblaws took and other retailers over the last couple of years for pricing-related issues right now, and they really had to change their way of doing business to start recapturing consumers.

00:18:24:21 - 00:18:42:07
Scott
It's the same for brands and any price-gouging or negatives like that are going to have a long term consequence, and then you get into a price game where cheaper people will come along, becomes, lessen your brand and switching goes up and you're commoditized over time. Happened in the orange juice category, happens in a lot of categories.

00:18:42:09 - 00:18:53:08
Alison
Now Sean, you typically in research see regional or generational differences. So when you looked at how Canadian consumer buying behaviour is changing, did you notice any big regional or generational differences?

00:18:53:10 - 00:19:14:15
Sean
Yeah, absolutely. I think we've seen very, very specific differences both on a regional and a generational point of view, as you would expect. From a from a generational point of view, the the Buy Canadian shopper tends to over-index a little bit older, tends to be a little bit more white or European, and come from a smaller household than the general population.

00:19:14:17 - 00:19:43:19
Sean
But the the biggest changes we see and probably the most impactful is, as Canadian marketers seek to drive their go to market strategies, is from a regional point of view. And largely you can read it east to west. We see that, you know, both in Atlantic Canada and Quebec, not only is the sentiment around buy Canadian much higher and much over-indexed than the rest of Canada, but we also see that the actual purchasing behaviour has been has been more impactful.

00:19:43:20 - 00:20:05:08
Sean
And as you move kind of west, you hit Ontario and out west, you see that sentiment around buy Canadian as a driver of purchase and intentionality decreased quite a bit. So it's very much a East to West phenomenon, although, you know, anytime sentiments are above 30, 40%, they're almost always but they tend to over-index from a passion in Atlantic Canada and Quebec.

00:20:05:10 - 00:20:28:09
Sean
And then from an actual purchase behaviour, Alison, what we see is, Quebec especially, we talked about retailers. U.S. retailers have largely been unimpacted by a U.S. branding or a perception of U.S. In Quebec, we see a little different. While those trends are still positive, they're much more muted than the rest of Canada. Instead what we see is a big halo effect for some of the,

00:20:28:09 - 00:20:55:22
Sean
the truly Quebec brands that they see, brands like Metro and IGA. And absolutely, I think when you think as a marketer around, you know, Quebec and their purchase intent, you do have to think a little bit around, there has been a significant upswing in Canadian nationalism in Quebec for the first time in a while, but how long is that Canadian nationalism versus more around a really a local view of, of one of my local, which really, pardon my terrible French,

00:20:55:22 - 00:21:29:08
Sean
but it is more around "a la mode du Québec" than it is around made in Canada. And what we do see is while Canadian brands are getting that same halo, very much in a market where Canadian brands or more U.S. brands have traditionally been under-shared, versus international brands like D'Italiano bread or L'Oreal skincare. We see, a little bit of more of a halo around those both those international brands, as well as purely local brands like Pride of Montreal that have have got a big hold from a buy local point of view, not just a Canadian sentiment.

00:21:29:10 - 00:21:38:13
Alison
And Sean, do you think part of that halo around the international brands is if they can't find a local brand to avoid buying American, they'll go anything but American?

00:21:38:15 - 00:22:09:03
Sean
Yeah. I mean, there's always been a history and especially in some of the more difficult categories like like health and beauty, Alison, or where it's difficult to tell what is what is buy Canada. Québecers have always over-indexed in more French brands or national brands from a comfort point of view. And so while local Quebec brands are doing well, we do see that there's still the gap between the international brand and a identified American brand, and there's a little bit of momentum behind that change as well.

00:22:09:03 - 00:22:11:21
Sean
So absolutely, it's it's there.

00:22:11:22 - 00:22:33:13
Scott
You know what's interesting there as well. I mean for years and years and years we've been looking at advertising in Quebec versus outside of Quebec, and the rest of Canada, even getting down to other regions. And, and correctly assumed that, you know, national advertising doesn't work that well in Quebec. And it's been documented and we've seen that time and time again.

00:22:33:15 - 00:22:54:13
Scott
But, we're also seeing some different approaches to advertising right now because of the tariffs. And, you know, I think about Kraft Heinz had a couple, one of them was about Heinz ketchup and that it's Ontario tomatoes and it's made in a  Quebec plant. And really building on, you know, the the impact they have on the economy and agriculture and workers in those.

00:22:54:13 - 00:23:30:05
Scott
And they did it again, during the Superbowl or Kraft dinner and the plant. And then on the other side of the coin, so you have national advertising that is really pulling on some Quebec heartstrings as well, or has the ability to. And then Aylmer did a really interesting and controversial ad, by the way, where, it was this spit commercial where they're eating soup and realized is made in the U.S. and spit it out on camera. It was really, really clever stuff, but it gets to the Made in Quebec part that Sean's talking about that also has legs outside of this region for the rest of the country.

00:23:30:07 - 00:23:38:04
Scott
So I think it's a it's an interesting opportunity to look at some, national advertising at the same time, building on, you know, Quebec in different regions.

00:23:38:06 - 00:23:46:00
Alison
And Scott building on that, we talked a little bit about maple washing. So what do you see are the risks of brands that are being labeled with maple washing?

00:23:46:02 - 00:24:09:02
Scott
Well, first of all it's losing any point of differentiation or brand equity you've had, whether you're watch TV or the radio or things flashing up on your phone, it's just an incredible amount of advertisers are trying to take a shortcut right now, as we were touching on earlier just about being Canadian, like that's all there is to it. And we know that's not all there is to a brand at all.

00:24:09:04 - 00:24:27:21
Scott
You know, brand has to deliver in so many different ways, stand out from the others, you know, command that price premium potentially that we talked about and that's built over years and years and years and throwing out messages that have nothing to do with your brand are the quickest way to, first of all, waste advertising dollars.

00:24:27:23 - 00:24:48:12
Scott
But the second part of that is you could be taking away from some strong equity you have. The other part is you may or may not have credentials to do this. You know, there are brands that have a really deeply-rooted in the Canadian experience and community. And I think about brands like Canadian Tire, Tim Hortons, and you think about whoever owns them,

00:24:48:12 - 00:25:22:09
Scott
you can think about a lot of brands like that. But if you are a multinational brand, you may not have to say anything. You may not need to go near that space right now. Just talk about what your brand is and all the things that's made it great for so many years. Because as soon as you're inauthentic, or unauthentic, I always get that one wrong, and as soon as you're making claims that people don't believe, whether sometimes they're true or not, but you go too far, you break the trust of consumers, and you're going to see a very fast erosion in your brand equity as a result.

00:25:22:11 - 00:25:41:15
Scott
So, you know, I'm not saying this because we do this kind of work. Go to anybody, but test your messaging first and make sure that it's believable, it's resonating, and it's also going to lead to purchase intent, which at the end of the day you're trying to drive sales. There are no shortcuts. And that's what we're seeing with maple washing.

00:25:41:17 - 00:26:02:10
Alison
Now you both are in the market daily and you've got a lot of very good recent research on how Canadians are acting in the current climate and how they intend to act. So of all the research findings you've seen over the last few weeks, what surprised you the most that any marketer who's joined us today should know? And, Scott, do you want to kick things off?

00:26:02:12 - 00:26:31:06
Scott
It's not just about being more or less Canadian. And that's what we're finding from our search and social work. The sentiment is not necessarily tied to being Canadian. Gets back to that advertising piece and messaging piece that we just touched on as well, that there's plenty of space for multinational brands to thrive in this market. And, you know, it's not about like trying to appear more Canadian or, you know, looking at your credentials and Sean said it well too, like your brand message is what you say.

00:26:31:06 - 00:26:50:04
Scott
Your brand equity is what people believe about your brand at the end of the day. So I think, like the first surprise, because I was caught up with the passion as a consumer and a shopper and a Canadian. I was caught up like everybody else. And then the research is showing that I'm seeing so far, that it's not everything.

00:26:50:06 - 00:27:05:17
Scott
And so, you know, we have so many great multinational brands in this country, and they've all been part of our legacy and their life experiences as well. But there's plenty and plenty of room for them to continue to build their brands. That's the one that really caught my attention.

00:27:05:19 - 00:27:30:00
Sean
Absolutely echo Scott's view around sentiment, translating to actually and understanding that the Buy Canada may not be everything. And I and I think the biggest surprise I've seen, you know, we live in a world where it feels like the clickbait, a lot of doom and gloom. I've been incredibly surprised at how many opportunities for demand growth and excitement there are with Canadian consumers today.

00:27:30:02 - 00:27:46:20
Sean
And I go back to the, I feel like a broken record of, if you don't look at the average and you understand your consumer and what's driving their purchase decision, and whether it be in the Buy Canada or U.S. avoiders, whether it be in why they're choosing a new Canadians as there's so many opportunities to drive your your demand growth,

00:27:46:20 - 00:28:07:13
Sean
if you understand why someone is making the decision they're making. And so that that is, I think, been something that has surprised me about that in a world where it feels like there's not a lot of opportunities to drive strategic decisions and actions, there's actually a lot of opportunities where shoppers are spending and they're willing to spend if you get your message right.

00:28:07:13 - 00:28:14:05
Sean
But you have to understand how Canadians are operating as individuals, not as an average consumers.

00:28:14:07 - 00:28:39:04
Alison
Sean, I'll also say that that's very encouraging for everyone that's tuned in today to know that with the right understanding and the right of your consumer and the right marketing approach, Canadians are willing to spend. So that gives us all lots of hope. Now, you both have clearly have deep insights into Canadian consumer behaviour on the actions. So what advice would you give marketers as they navigate through the rising Canadian patriotism and global economic uncertainty?

00:28:39:06 - 00:28:43:01
Alison
And Sean, you've shared a bit of advice already. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

00:28:43:03 - 00:29:09:08
Sean
Yeah, I mean, I think again, understand your consumer, understand them at a level that's deep enough to to actually identify real differences so you can make decisions against them. I would absolutely add to that the power of consumer, but also the power of your product and making sure that your product is really meeting the jobs to be done of your consumer and that you're differentiated enough to command not only the right to be bought, but also at a premium.

00:29:09:08 - 00:29:27:23
Sean
So whether that's jobs to be done from fulfilling a Buy Canada if you have that authenticity, but also jobs to be done when it comes across all the different, you know, choices and reasons why someone would buy your brand. So understand the consumer and match your product differentiation of the jobs to be done I think are just good work.

00:29:28:01 - 00:29:50:22
Scott
Wise words Sean and I'll add three. I'll add three things when it comes to, you know, advertising and marketing as well. One of them is do not go dark. This is the worst time to go to dark. Any time is a bad time to go to dark, and it will take years to rebuild your current levels of salience

00:29:51:03 - 00:30:19:18
Scott
if you stop your messaging now. And that will cost a lot more than maintaining your presence with consumers. We call it a recovery period. And you're gonna have a long recovery if you stop messaging. Number two is, we talked about the sea of sameness around Canadian credential advertising. And a lot of the advertising can get pretty bland and be, you know, one ad kind of same as the other ad with messaging and everything else.

00:30:19:20 - 00:30:42:21
Scott
The one thing to remember is just like, people need a break from that. And in all of our advertising research over different crises and moments in time, don't forget the power of appropriate humour in advertising as a way to stand out and give people a mental break from everything that's going on. They're stressed out enough. It's not too soon to get back to a good joke.

00:30:42:21 - 00:31:08:13
Scott
I think people, and we see it again in our research, that people appreciate that, and your advertising will stand out. And the third one, and this is a pitch Alison, it's something we're doing, the case for Canadian Creative. We're going to be speaking to, advertising testing and advertising effectiveness in the U.S. versus Canada. But we've seen over and over again that U.S. ads do not necessarily perform well in Canada.

00:31:08:15 - 00:31:34:03
Scott
Right now is not the time to be using U.S. advertising in this market, with this heightened sensitivity, it's pretty clear to consumers around their messaging and how the brand and people are shown in ads. This is not a good time. And I always say, it's, you know, penny rich and pound foolish to try to save a few bucks on your production versus the millions and millions that you spend on media.

00:31:34:05 - 00:31:53:12
Scott
Now's not the time to repurpose ads from other markets unless you have tested them and you're sure that they're going to resonate well. It could actually take away from your brand. So three things with advertising to be careful of - don't go dark, don't be afraid of a good joke, and be careful about using creative from other markets.

00:31:53:14 - 00:32:18:06
Alison
That's great counsel, and thanks for pitching the CMA Case for Canada event in June. That's going to be a great continuation of this conversation for sure. And then on your don't go dark, the other side of that is, because many businesses do go dark in an economic downturn, those that don't, or better yet, heavy up their investment, see significant business returns and long-standing business returns.

00:32:18:06 - 00:32:37:01
Alison
So there's a lot of reasons not to be cutting marketing spend right now. Now, before I let you both get on with your busy day, I want to end with a question that's more around career advice. You both have incredible, very enviable and long-standing careers, and I know our listeners will absolutely benefit from hearing about your journey.

00:32:37:06 - 00:32:47:05
Alison
So to close off the discussion, I'd love you each to share one piece of advice for our listeners who aspire to follow in your footsteps. And Sean, do you want to kick things off?

00:32:47:07 - 00:33:08:11
Sean
Absolutely. I mean, the biggest advice I'll give and I'll, I'll focus on people early in their careers because I feel like often in today's world, that's where people are looking on, what's next? How far do I go? And and they're filled with all the wonderful things they're going to do in their career. My big advice is really focus on building your equity, your talent, your skill set.

00:33:08:11 - 00:33:44:13
Sean
And don't be as as rushed to run to the next, but really enjoy the the work you're doing, the things and the challenges and and I and I give that advice for a couple reasons. A - you know, my experience I've gotten the honour to work in CPG for, for many years and then make the jump into tech. That ability to move, both across brands and across industries and even into leisure space, was done because, you know, I, I built a very good core skill set around CPG and understanding and the market, and so building that foundation has served me incredibly well since I started and focused. And then and then the second one is the

00:33:44:13 - 00:34:14:02
Sean
other big advice I give to anybody is let your, you know, choose your career path once you figure out what what drives value for you. We've talked about the cost of time. We talked about convenience. You know, that cost is very small when you enjoy what you do. And I and I find I built that early in my career where I, where I really realized that, you know, I get a lot of value by creating value for others, whether it be insights or CPG, working with people like Scott, for my family, my kids.

00:34:14:02 - 00:34:32:00
Sean
And so I've always since then sought out roles that allowed me to maximize how much value I can create for others, and it's allowed me to to move quickly. It's allowed me to get through these tough times, or sometimes where you're feeling like, I don't want to get up. It makes the cost of time very small if you love what you do.

00:34:32:18 - 00:34:56:16
Scott
I mean, the first one for me is pretty simple, and it's just about embracing change. I mean, research is all about questions and finding new ways to answer them. And, you know, I think about, through my career, about the resistance to things like online research, the automation, and now people are a little scared of AI. And it's, if you're scared of these things, you're going to fail.

00:34:56:19 - 00:35:18:09
Scott
I mean, it's, how are you going to leverage these to get the answers in a whole new and exciting way? So keeping an open mind and keeping on top of all the rapid changes in technology. And number two is, just, take it from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. This is a very small community. Be excellent to one another, always.

00:35:18:11 - 00:35:30:23
Scott
It's a small world. You're going to be working with people again and again, and if you treat people with a lot of respect and a lot of interest, you're going to you're going to do well and others around you will do well too. 

00:35:30:23 - 00:35:51:00
Alison
Outstanding advice. And I love the Bill and Ted Excellent Adventure reference. Thank you both. Really great conversation. You've shared really important insights and research-backed knowledge that everyone that's tuned in will absolutely benefit from. So, I also know you're incredibly busy, especially right now, so thank you both for making time to join me today and for a really great conversation.

00:35:51:02 - 00:35:51:19
Scott
Thanks Alison.

00:35:51:21 - 00:35:54:15
Sean
It was fantastic. Thanks, Alison. Thanks, Scott.

Scott
Thanks Sean.

00:35:54:17 - 00:36:09:04
Presenter
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