EP42 - Beyond Brand Control with Neil Patel

In this live episode of CMA Connect for CMA Marketing Week 2025, Alison Simpson the CEO of the CMA welcomes Neil Patel, New York Times bestselling author, and the Founder of NP Digital. Their conversation covers various topics from the impact of AI on marketing, and the importance of continuous learning and adaptation, to the changing nature of brand control and exposing the myth of controlling narratives. Listen in as Alison and Neil discuss the evolving landscape of the marketing profession in Canada and decide for yourself if brands still matter. 

00:00:01:18 - 00:00:22:05
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:07 - 00:00:45:09
Alison
So it's an absolute pleasure to welcome everyone in the room today, as well as the hundreds of Canadians that are joining us from across the country to this live version of CMA connect. As we've heard throughout the morning, marketing isn't just changing. It is absolutely being redefined in real time. And it's so important to take time to reflect and digest and make sure that our pivoting makes sense.

00:00:45:11 - 00:01:07:03
Alison
It's absolutely, very much a period of test and learn as well. And the most recent panel did a phenomenal job of sharing how that's working for them as well. And they both panels today have really given us a lot to reflect on. So building on that theme, I'm thrilled to be joined by Neil Patel and Years time bestselling author and also the founder of NP digital.

00:01:07:05 - 00:01:32:16
Alison
He's going to be joining me on stage momentarily, but while he's coming up, I will share a little bit about Neil. Neil's full service digital marketing agency has helped industry giants like Microsoft and Google, just to name a couple, grow through revolutionary marketing strategies. He also has a marketing school podcast that attracts over 1 million listeners monthly. The United Nations recognized Neil as one of the top 100 entrepreneurs under the age of 35.

00:01:32:18 - 00:01:49:15
Alison
Oh, and The Wall Street Journal cited him as a top influencer on the web, just around things out. He made Forbes list of the top ten marketers. You know what? I thought my career was going pretty well until I started to learn a little bit more about Neil. So, you know, I've had the pleasure of meeting and doing a CME session with him last year.

00:01:49:15 - 00:01:52:18
Alison
So it's great to welcome you back to Canada.

00:01:52:20 - 00:01:56:02
Neil
Thank you. Thank you.

00:01:56:04 - 00:02:03:23
Alison
So we're going to jump right in. What are the biggest rules you've seen rewritten. And then how are you going to rate us on our ability to adapt to those rules.

00:02:04:01 - 00:02:25:02
Neil
Yeah. So when you're thinking about the rules of marketing, people just used to assume marketing wasn't very black and white. I'm not talking about from the creative aspect, but in marketing, in general, people are like, okay, you spend money on clicks and you get traffic to your website, you generate sales, you rank on Google, you get clicks, you generate sales.

00:02:25:02 - 00:02:48:06
Neil
And one of the biggest rules has been changed in marketing is platforms now are trying to optimize keeping people on their own platform, their own site, instead of sending people off to your website. Marcus believe that you would have to have people coming to your website to drive revenue and sales. You can now purchase on Instagram or TikTok without ever leaving that platform.

00:02:48:09 - 00:03:13:04
Neil
The business generates revenue and Instagram and TikTok, so have the user. They sell them more products, more services. So I would say the biggest rule that I'm seeing being rewritten right now is traditional form of marketing. Of sending them to a business to generate revenue is no longer the case. A business can make money on multiple platforms, and it's no longer about getting people over to your brand, your website.

00:03:13:10 - 00:03:22:14
Neil
It's more so capturing their attention on whatever platform they are on and then selling them right then and there on that platform natively.

00:03:22:16 - 00:03:26:17
Alison
And how are you writing marketers overall in our ability to adapt to that?

00:03:26:19 - 00:03:53:09
Neil
Marketers have been adapting really well. What we typically see is the marketers who work for SMEs tend to adapt first, and then the marketers who work at large corporations typically adapt second, because it just takes time and energy. And when you're a big corporation, you know, that's publicly traded, that it has $100 billion market cap. It takes time to make adjustments versus when you're a five person start.

00:03:53:11 - 00:04:00:23
Alison
Now you also work with a lot of big tech organizations. So are they a bit more agile or they're still suffering from the same?

00:04:01:01 - 00:04:04:23
Neil
They're still suffering from the same thing that all the other corporations are.

00:04:05:01 - 00:04:16:14
Alison
So, Neil, as we look to the future, there are some experts out there that are starting to question will brands continue to be relevant? So in your opinion, will Rand still matter in an age of algorithms and hyper personalization?

00:04:16:16 - 00:04:39:00
Neil
AI brands, I think, matter more than ever before. Think of AI overviews. You do a search you may get mentioned in a overviews you don't necessarily always get a click back to your website. You do a search on ChatGPT. You may see a brand or a product or service recommended. You may end up purchasing later on. You may not purchase at all, but it's very rare that you're actually clicking over to the website.

00:04:39:06 - 00:04:57:07
Neil
You see a real on Instagram or video. Whatever you want and calling it short form. See a product or service mention you don't go and buy right away. In most cases. That brand recognition, though, is what eventually leads to a sale. In marketing, they call something the rule of seven. Or there's this thing called the Rule of seven.

00:04:57:07 - 00:05:24:03
Neil
When someone sees or interacts with your brand seven times, they're much more likely to engage, become a customer, evangelize. And we started looking at price points in both B2C and B2B. Of course, the cheaper the price point, the less interaction someone needed with the brand before they purchase. But when we looked at price points across the whole board for both B2B and B2C, the average number of interactions someone has with the brand when we did a study was around 11.

00:05:24:08 - 00:05:34:22
Neil
So branding is more important than ever, because if you're not touching people multiple times and you're not saying top of mind, you're less likely to drive that sale when they're ready to make that decision.

00:05:35:00 - 00:05:56:14
Alison
Now, awareness and trust in a brand is obviously yes. We heard the panel talk about the emotional part of a brand. It's there's always going to be product features and benefits. But as humans we react emotionally. And we also heard a lot about authenticity. What else would you add to what makes a brand as important or even more important today?

00:05:56:16 - 00:06:12:05
Neil
So if you want your brand to be super important, I would say you got to figure out an angle. You know, trust, authenticity. These are all a lot of things that markers talk about. And it's been there for a very long time. But what are you doing that's different? So I'll give you a great example of this right.

00:06:12:07 - 00:06:37:01
Neil
I'm listening in. I'm from the States. I'm not familiar with as many Canadian brands as you guys may be. So one of the panelists before me was from Farm Girl. Never heard of it. I have kids, don't give them cereal in the morning. Why? It's terrible for you in most cases, right? The advantage you guys have here in Canada is you guys typically have cleaner ingredients.

00:06:37:03 - 00:07:01:00
Neil
Our box of FrootLoops is much worse, at least from what we see on Instagram Reels when they compare versus what the Canadian version of FrootLoops is. All right, so when I saw Farm Girl, the first thing I did, even if there's a tariff for me, I tried to purchase it on Amazon, I think was like 20 something dollars, USD per package.

00:07:01:00 - 00:07:17:01
Neil
I added three to a cart, and then I was like, I'm like, wait, I'm here for extra like few hours. Can I just go to the grocery store and pick some up? Because my suitcase is half empty? I'm literally here for a day, right? Like I should just go to the grocery store and just see if I can shove a ton in.

00:07:17:03 - 00:07:54:05
Neil
I don't know what's going to happen at the customs or I'm Global Entry, so hopefully I don't get any beef, but that was a unique angle, solving a problem that people have. When I grew up, I eat cereal and my parents didn't know any better. Immigrants from India, you know, they look at it as like, anything's great. We're not living on the street, you know, give your kid whatever is on sale, affordable cut coupons, etc. at this point in time, we're much more educated as parents then I would say that the previous generations were, and it has nothing to do with intellect.

00:07:54:05 - 00:08:17:21
Neil
I think a lot of it has to do with the data and the social platforms pushing out so much information that we're able to consume it and learn more. But going back to it, that brand stood out to me. She's booming. Great growth. I'm happy for her. But as a consumer, her success of her generating tons of revenue and growing fast is why I would buy the product.

00:08:18:02 - 00:08:38:10
Neil
I'm buying the product. You know, either it's going to be Amazon or in-store if I can find it, but I'm buying the product for one simple reason a unique value proposition. Solving a very important problem. Parent busy in the morning. Don't want to give them crap food. Don't want to spend tons of money on Uber Eats to get restaurant quality food in there.

00:08:38:10 - 00:08:58:22
Neil
I tend to do the morning shift. Terrible cook healthy cereal? Why not? Right? No, no. But in the US, I don't think there is a skill. Right. Or I would do skip whatever it may and whatever it may end up being right. But that is why I was willing to purchase that brand. And to me that is something unique.

00:08:59:00 - 00:09:17:12
Neil
Okay. And when you see something unique like that, people end up latching on and they see fast growth. I don't know her revenue numbers, but I bet you there in the eight figures sounds like a new business. But if I had to place a bet, I would bet you there are an eight figures. Why did they scale so fast?

00:09:17:17 - 00:09:33:13
Neil
That brand did something unique and new that people have never experienced before. Now there may have been another competitor who did exactly what she did a year or two earlier, but if it doesn't get out there and no one talks about it, then in most to most people it doesn't exist.

00:09:33:15 - 00:09:38:04
Alison
So Jennifer, you have at least one sale from your appearance this morning. I suspect you have a lot more in the audience too.

00:09:38:04 - 00:09:42:02
Neil
Well, minimum of three because I added three different flavours to my cart.

00:09:42:04 - 00:09:57:11
Alison
So it wouldn't be Marketing Week if we didn't talk about AI with at least one question. Yeah, clearly it's transforming marketing. How do you see it impacting marketing? And probably more importantly, what are the skills you think we as marketers need to build moving forward?

00:09:57:13 - 00:10:21:22
Neil
So I was here last year and I was a center and people were discussing AI and how it's going to crush everything. It's going to turn everything, you know, upside down on the pyramid and the way organizations do business is going to be drastically different. All right. So we've seen a lot of data. I've always been on a different side of AI than what I think a lot of marketers and businesses believe.

00:10:22:00 - 00:10:39:22
Neil
Keep in mind though, a lot of this is not my opinion. I talked to people who are actually coding these products, and I speak with the people from these platforms like no joke, whether it's in their offices or dinners. Like, I know some of the top guys, as you know, these corporations that are worth a crack load of money.

00:10:39:22 - 00:11:01:09
Neil
And although their goal is to make AI as seamless as possible and help you in every aspect, there's a few big problems that most marketers aren't taking into consideration. So the first problem is, is the way I works is it takes all the data inputs and it creates outputs based on what you asked, but it learns from all the inputs.

00:11:01:15 - 00:11:19:15
Neil
The problem with AI is those inputs are all accurate and there's not an easy way to solve this. It's like do a Google search. Have you ever noticed that when you do a Google search, some of the information you read is just off? Raise your hand. Okay, almost everyone in here is raising your hand. You don't think Google hasn't tried to solve this?

00:11:19:15 - 00:11:39:08
Neil
They've been trying to solve this for ages. Like when I say ages almost since when they started. It's hard. Oh, what are you going to base on? Backlinks? Well, a lot of people link to inaccurate information. Comments a lot of people comment on something because, you know, whether you want to talk about how their politics or religion, there's people on both sides.

00:11:39:11 - 00:12:03:07
Neil
So it creates polarizing views. Right? A great example of this is the vaccines. When the vaccines first came about, when Covid, people in different parts of the world were getting shunned, if they did not take the vaccine. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. I'm not here to get political. But if I fast forward today and I'm not going to have you guys raise your hands because, again, not trying to get political, I bet almost everyone in this room does not get booster shots.

00:12:03:12 - 00:12:27:00
Neil
I don't even need to raise your hand. I can see the data in the earnings calls. Right? These companies are publicly traded. It's just the reality. But when it first came out, most people had a different tune about vaccines. And it doesn't mean that the government is right or wrong or pharmaceuticals right or wrong. But what I'm getting at is that information online of what people are posting was very polarizing or people had different views.

00:12:27:00 - 00:12:45:20
Neil
So when I pulls in that, how do they know what is right or wrong? It makes things really complex. So today when you ask AI to help you with something, you need humans in the loop to review. When you have a I help you with a marketing campaign and come up with a strategy and everyone starts to do that.

00:12:45:21 - 00:13:09:09
Neil
How is it really going to be differentiated? The creativity that people have is what makes marketing truly unique and amazing. But here's the thing and marketing is here to stay. It is going to make the whole industry move faster, much more efficient. And what you'll see is people will get things done much faster and waste a lot less money.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:29:08
Neil
But even then you're going to still have humans in the loop. It's just AI is going to replace a lot of the D and C players. I eventually believe it will start replacing B players as well. We're quite a ways from that. When you want to look at how much AI has advanced in the past year, I understand that you can see like, oh wow, look at this video that it created.

00:13:29:08 - 00:13:49:13
Neil
Look at this action figure turn me into. But look at it from a usability perspective, from your work that you're performing on a daily basis. You want it to have a great content for you. Has it really drastically improve the quality of that content over the last six months? Not as much compared to when it first came out in the first year.

00:13:49:14 - 00:14:17:04
Neil
There was so much more progress that we would see in the quality of improvements, but it's taking longer for you to see leaps and bounds and improvements for things like content quality. And the reason being is every percent improvement is a lot more work than at its earlier stages. Again, it is here to stay. It is going to replace a lot of the bottom feeders or the people who aren't that great at their job, and it's going to make the people who are really good at their job more valuable.

00:14:17:04 - 00:14:25:12
Neil
They're going to get paid more, and you got to figure out how you continue to learn and adapt to try to stay in that top percent style in whatever industry or so.

00:14:25:12 - 00:14:39:00
Alison
Clearly, everyone that's tuned in today, if they're not already in a player, wants to be in a player, want a long term career in marketing. So what skills do we need to be adapting or growing in order to make sure that we're here in the long term?

00:14:39:02 - 00:15:01:20
Neil
The first thing is, is learn how to use all the AI tools. When I say learn how to use them, I'm not talking about just putting in a prompt into ChatGPT. Think about the KPIs your department, you or the business has to hit. What are the things that you can do to help? I get you there faster, more efficiently, and figure out ways to use the tools to show positive traction.

00:15:02:00 - 00:15:18:02
Neil
Not hey look, I use ChatGPT and I did all this cool stuff for the last two days. Oh great. And they're like, yeah, the fast forward six months. Look at all this crazy stuff I did the last six months. What were the results in traffic? Brand recognition, revenue leads. They're like, oh, it saved me a lot of time.

00:15:18:02 - 00:15:40:09
Neil
What did you do with the extra time? I did more of that stuff, but it didn't produce results. If it doesn't produce results, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. And I'm not saying I can't produce results. It's that most marketers are using it for stuff that is a waste of time, and you need to start focusing on how can you use these tools to not only help you do your job better, but show better results?

00:15:40:13 - 00:16:02:06
Neil
And a lot of that's going to come from experimentation. The second thing is continue to go to events and learn. You never will know everything. And that's okay. I've been in this space for more than 20 years, 24 years now. It's changed drastically. And some people ask me when I'm at some of these events, sometimes I talk to these college kids and they're like, why did you waste 15 20 minutes talking to a college kid?

00:16:02:06 - 00:16:20:11
Neil
Are they going to become a customer? I'm like, no, like, so why did do they know more about marketing than you? I'm like, well, it depends. And they're like, what are you talk to? Like? Well, they grew up using these platforms. I didn't they see some of these trends and patterns before I do. What can I learn from them that I don't understand?

00:16:20:17 - 00:16:39:10
Neil
And that's what you have to do when you go to these events is network with everyone, because you don't know who you're going to learn from, and never judge someone by their job title or the size of the company they work out, or their net worth, or the way they dress. You literally can learn from anyone, and when you do that, you'll become a much better person.

00:16:39:12 - 00:17:08:04
Neil
The third thing, thank you. The third thing is continually read every single day, but limit it if you want to read for leisure, by all means, read as much as you want. But what I see people doing in marketing is continue reading articles and blogs and books, and they may read for 4 or 5 hours a day instead of saying, hey, I'm going to try to read for 30 minutes or an hour and then go and implement what I learned.

00:17:08:06 - 00:17:36:07
Neil
So you read all these cool things that are happening with AI or marketing or branding, or even listen on the panel or a podcast, but very few people take that knowledge and do anything with it. Try to experiment. You're probably not gonna be able to do it daily, but try to implement one thing that you learned from a podcast or book a blog article at least once a week, and you'll start slowly growing your skill set as a marker, and you'll start seeing better results.

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:55:09
Neil
And if I give you one last bonus tip when it comes to becoming better as an individual, don't just look at things as KPIs. Don't just look at it. Here's the year I gotta hit this goal. I want you to also start looking from a different lens. And that lens is what are all the problems that are holding us back from growing.

00:17:55:15 - 00:18:12:14
Neil
We're hitting our numbers now. Break it down to what are bite size things that can be fixed within a week, and start just tackling them one by one. People really do miss most their goals and objectives within an organization, and the reason being is they shoot for, hey, I got to do this.

00:18:12:14 - 00:18:13:12
Alison
In a year.

00:18:13:14 - 00:18:28:02
Neil
And they don't know how to get there. But if you start looking at things as problems and you start fixing them one by one, you fast forward three months, six months, you're like, whoa, we've made a lot of progress, and we're seeing it in our numbers, and you're just tackling a lot of the issues you have as an organization.

00:18:28:07 - 00:18:30:20
Neil
And when you tackle them, usually see growth.

00:18:30:22 - 00:19:01:14
Alison
So remarkably great advice. I love the learn by doing. I love sort of chunking it out. And those like small steps lead to with the benefit of time, huge outcomes. I also love you can learn from anyone. So in any beyond networking, in events, in any organization you're part of, if you have the opportunity to speak to students or anyone at any level in an organization, the amount of incredible insights and ideas that come out and that you can benefit from at any level in the organization is incredibly powerful.

00:19:01:16 - 00:19:31:16
Alison
And then your first piece of advice resonates the most with me. Anyone that wants to be future proofing your career in marketing, if you are doing work that is driving a business forward, that is growing the business and delivering results, there is no better way to futureproof yourself. And as a profession, all of us need to be much more accountable and embracing of that, that commercial value that we're driving and really do a good job of advocating for the critical role that marketing plays in building brands and building businesses today. So, Neil, outstanding advice on all four counts.

00:19:36:13 - 00:19:40:22
Neil
Yeah. Thank you.

00:19:41:00 - 00:20:01:01
Neil
And one last thing. When it comes to AI, the amount of businesses we interact with across the world that still have a move to the cloud is ridiculously high. It just. And the reason I say that is air is definitely here. The cloud has been here for a long time and we all know it's here to stay. Businesses don't adapt as fast as most people think.

00:20:01:04 - 00:20:13:07
Neil
This is why startups can overtake trillion dollar companies is because large organizations inherently move slow. Politics, bureaucracy, see a lot of people, a lot of moving parts.

00:20:13:09 - 00:20:21:20
Alison
So decentralized technologies are reshaping how consumers are interacting with brands. How might this shift influence loyalty programs and engagement strategies?

00:20:21:22 - 00:20:47:13
Neil
Yeah. So let's first go with loyalty programs, right? I think there's actually going to be a huge shift to loyalty programs over time. Which leads to the second part. And how is this going to decentralization, going to relate companies just abroad. If you look at the pattern right now, people use multiple social platforms. I have people raise their hand because I bet if I ask you how many social platforms you use, most of you guys can raise your hand for one.

00:20:47:13 - 00:21:10:03
Neil
Actually, all of you will. Or almost all most you going to raise your hands or to most your hands will raise your hands for three a month. But the moment I ask you if you use four social media platforms a month, very few you're going to raise your hands. Five is going to really drop, but the average person logs in and uses 6.6 social platforms a month, according to Sprout Social 6.6 and the same thing is happening with search.

00:21:10:06 - 00:21:35:19
Neil
People are starting to use Google ChatGPT, they're starting to use, you know, perplexity and the list goes on and on and on. The same goes with tools and a lot of the tech out there people are using not platforms. And what you're going to end up seeing is technology is everywhere, and the way regulation ends up working is these companies are more likely to get split apart at this point than to be able to buy up their competitors.

00:21:35:21 - 00:22:06:00
Neil
And it's not a US thing. It's not a Canada thing. It's a global thing. If the US approves the acquisition, then you know, Europe may not. The perfect example of this is there's Pinterest and Snap. They don't make anywhere near the amount of money that Facebook makes. Their stocks are struggling. Do you think an ideal world Google would just buy X, Pinterest, snap and all these platforms because they have the biggest ad ecosystem they can just drive tons of advertisers and ads on their platform and just use the revenue without doing much work.

00:22:06:02 - 00:22:24:03
Neil
This is not a hypothetical. This is actually if they bought it, you would see the revenue just skyrocket. And what I'm getting at is they can't because governments globally will not allow them to. You had to get a lot to prove to do one of these acquisitions. So what you're going to start seeing is technology can truly be fragmented.

00:22:24:03 - 00:22:47:06
Neil
People will use it for what it is. People started skirting around the law. A great example of this is did you know that Amazon and Google and Facebook have not bought in that many AI companies? Right. I get they're buying some companies here or there, but do you know what they did? Hey, you should open source your technology and we'll take a lot of your employees and pay you a license deal to use that technology.

00:22:47:09 - 00:23:23:18
Neil
This is their way of getting around monopolistic issues or laws or the government's not wanting them to buy up competitors and then be the only player in town. And what you'll end up seeing is technology will be out there from multiple platforms. And these platforms. The biggest trend that you're going to see is you'll have to not only learn to use technology for whatever it is and all the data won't be stored in one place because of rules and regulation, but these platforms will try to keep you on there for everything, including things like loyalty programs, the all in one apps that you see in Asia.

00:23:23:20 - 00:23:41:13
Neil
You bet you're going to start seeing more of them here in Canada. What it is be easier. Just like you can purchase a product now on Instagram that when you're in Starbucks, use it through your Instagram app and you get hooked up. It's easier to do that than it is to download a Starbucks app, right? And that's what you're going to end up seeing.

00:23:41:19 - 00:23:51:02
Neil
And then the data is going to be per platform, and you're going to have no choice but to use each platform for what it is. And data and analytics will be more important than ever.

00:23:51:04 - 00:24:07:19
Alison
So marketers, especially in a soft economy, especially when there's uncertainty, there's a lot of pressure for short term results. And short term results are really important. But short term results only last when you're also doing long term brand building. So how can marketers balance the two?

00:24:07:21 - 00:24:31:19
Neil
Yeah, you don't have a choice. Ideally, you need to think long term with your marketing. But people need short term results, especially when the economy is bad. So I like using the 8020 rule 20% of your efforts should be focused on short term things that have a positive ROI. 80% should be long term, but just because they're long term doesn't mean you shouldn't see results within two months, three months, six months, eight months, 12 months.

00:24:31:19 - 00:24:48:19
Neil
It should get progressively better over time. It may not be in full effect until a year or two, but it doesn't mean that you can't see some results within three months. When you're thinking long term, like, oh cool, we're going to do this. We won't see any results until year four. You're probably doing something wrong with your long term approach.

00:24:48:21 - 00:24:56:19
Alison
With the rise of user generated content and influencer marketing, how can brands maintain narrative control while still embracing these channels?

00:24:56:21 - 00:25:17:12
Neil
You cannot maintain narrative control. That is a false sense of reality. I can go buy Farm Girl cereal between all my social platforms. I have millions of followers, and hypothetically, if I had a terrible experience, I bet you I'm going to have a delightful experience. This is just a hypothetical. I could say, look how bad the cereal is and, you know, allergic reaction and all this kind of stuff.

00:25:17:12 - 00:25:42:19
Neil
But I looked at the ingredients. I was literally zooming in on my phone, and Amazon really clean ingredients, and that's when I added it to the cart, right? I literally swiped and zoomed in. And then on the flip side, I can say, look at this. I've had amazing experience. Look at my kids. You know, it's not getting them addicted to, you know, 50g of sugar per serving or something crazy like that because it's healthy, it's well balanced, yada yada, yada.

00:25:42:19 - 00:25:58:14
Neil
You guys get the point. And I haven't looked at the ingredients, but I'm assuming it is more I haven't analyzed ingredients fully, but I'm assuming it's much more well-balanced. And let's say, you know, a general cereal that you pick up off the grocery aisle. But I can say something good, or I can say something bad. She can't control that.

00:25:58:17 - 00:26:19:18
Neil
She can try to combat that. But you can't control the narrative. You can respond to the narratives. You can try to create your own narrative, but you will not be able to ever control the narrative ever again. And that's the reality. Doesn't matter what country that you're targeting or focusing, you cannot control the narrative anymore. That's how social media works.

00:26:19:20 - 00:26:43:11
Neil
All you can do is respond and do your best. And this is when I tell people, when you have some people saying bad things or negative things, try to respond and don't be combative unless they're really awesome, but try to do it in a polite way and show them where they can do to improve. You know, if they did something wrong, they use a product or service in the wrong way, or if they didn't say thank you for the feedback.

00:26:43:11 - 00:26:58:18
Neil
I'm really sorry you're disappointed. If there's anything we can do to make it right, please let us know. And we're going to take this feedback and work on improving our product and service. And this is how. But just being transparent and honest and just being public about it, a lot of times it does a lot of good.

00:26:58:20 - 00:27:18:07
Alison
So building on that, having it goes back to the importance of brand building and having brand advocates, because even more powerful than the brand, apologizing is when your community steps up and apologizes or helps combat the negative as well. So it just speaks to performance marketing and brand building. It shouldn't be one or the other. It needs to be both.

00:27:18:09 - 00:27:41:19
Neil
Yes, but your community is more likely to respond and defend you if they understand that as an organization that you guys are willing to listen. If you don't listen, then you're going to be screwed. You know, that's the reality. Someone's going to go to the competition. There was a panelist earlier was talking about mortgages and how they adopted, people wanting better rates, refinancing.

00:27:41:21 - 00:28:05:18
Neil
Now the back story. But they figured out a partnership with another company based on what I heard, and they figured out a solution for their customers. And that's example of listening. People just want to know that you listen. If you listen, it's okay if you make mistakes, everyone does. But if you listen and you're willing to adapt, admit when you're wrong and showcase how you're going to improve, you'll get the community to rally behind you.

00:28:05:23 - 00:28:13:12
Neil
But if you don't and you're just going to be arrogant, be like, no, no, no, you're wrong. I'm smarter than you. Then why would anyone care?

00:28:13:14 - 00:28:21:07
Alison
So is immersive digital experiences evolve? How should brands prepare to build and sustain their identity in virtual spaces?

00:28:21:09 - 00:28:45:17
Neil
Yeah, so virtual spaces are going to be very similar to what you see right now on the web. It's all digital. You have a website, you have brand guidelines. Imagine a virtual mall and someone wearing augmented reality glasses like Oculus or Apple Vision Pro, but cool technology. I'm just waiting for the glasses format. I'm like, dude, I thought I was going to travel with it.

00:28:45:19 - 00:29:03:08
Neil
The carrying case is literally a backpack and I'm like, I can't fit a backpack with in my backpack. How am I getting with my laptop at this point? Right? But just like you have brand guidelines for the web, your social media, your website, you will have the same for things like virtual reality and virtual spaces. There's not much of a difference.

00:29:03:10 - 00:29:25:04
Neil
Even when corporations integrate their brand within games, which we're starting to see more and more, and that's starting to become more normal. What happens? Brands not only get make money from this, right a game, they get paid for brand integrating within their virtual or, you know, their characters or uniforms or whatever it may be, but they have brand guidelines, just like you see with the offline world.

00:29:25:07 - 00:29:51:00
Neil
And we're seeing companies now being like, oh, let's mix Oreos in with protein powder and be like Oreo protein powder. All right. You're using Oreos name. There's definitely brand guidelines that you're going to have to follow from Oreo when you integrate their product. And if you don't believe me, once you sign the deal with them, you'll see that they'll force you to use certain types of colors, logos, etc. they're way for integration.

00:29:51:02 - 00:29:54:23
Neil
And you're going to see this whether it's virtual or in the traditional sense.

00:29:55:01 - 00:30:04:08
Alison
So our event this one is called exclusively for the bright. So in today's climate and looking ahead, what do you believe is the bravest move a marketer can make and why?

00:30:04:10 - 00:30:27:19
Neil
The bravest move that I've seen marketers do is figure out how to crush their existing model and transform into a new model. You look at Shopify, Canadian company, one of the best products out there in the e-commerce realm, period, right? You can look at their earnings as proof they built the email product they want in marketing there as a business.

00:30:27:19 - 00:30:47:18
Neil
They want everyone to use their own systems. What do they eventually end up doing? Partnering with Klaviyo, taking a big cut, crushing what they actually wanted because they did what they thought was better for the user or the future based on what they saw for adoption. Most people aren't willing to do that. The CEO of that company, I think is exceptionally brilliant.

00:30:48:00 - 00:31:15:05
Neil
I'm not talking about just from a intellect standpoint, definitely a smart, but I'm talking about he's willing to do stuff that most companies would not be willing to do when he knows it's the right fit for the long run. Think about doing that for everything. You know, we have marketing tools like Uber has announced the public we were burning three, 400 grand a month on these tools at the very beginning and releasing them for free, and they still are for free.

00:31:15:05 - 00:31:31:05
Neil
There are paid versions, but most of it's free, 80 plus percent of it. And people are like, you're crazy. And I'm like, this is actually cheaper than spending money on paid ads. And I'm like, it will be. But at the beginning it was cost me 3 or 400 grand a month, and I was barely getting any leads from it, and I was just eating a ton of money.

00:31:31:08 - 00:31:54:00
Neil
Now when I do the back end math, it would be something like $6 million a month worth of ad spend to generate similar results. Doing what's unconventional that people haven't tried before taking those risks is really how you be brave and I've been to Canada many times. People tell me Canadians are conservative. People tell me Canadians can't take risks.

00:31:54:02 - 00:32:14:12
Neil
I call it bull. They're smart people. You guys can do anything. You guys put your minds here. You guys have built some amazing corporations throughout history. And not just that, people all over the world are using Canada products. Believe in yourselves. You can do anything you put your mind to. You don't have to take the traditional route. We're a global company with people.

00:32:14:12 - 00:32:38:12
Neil
In 28 countries. I think some of the best talent is here in Canada. We run our creative globally. Out of Canada has nothing to do with currency exchange. You know, people talk about Canada as currency exchange. I don't look at it that way. You want to know why we run our creative here from Canada? Because we have some of the best creative talent we've ever found here in Canada.

00:32:38:17 - 00:32:44:09
Neil
Seriously, like, you guys have amazing talent here. Don't count yourselves out.

00:32:44:15 - 00:32:47:14
Alison
You're doing it because you're very smart. That's why you're doing it.

00:32:47:19 - 00:33:06:00
Neil
We did it because seriously, when we look for the talent, we look globally. It was amazing. Tanya. Ronnie, one of our managing directors in Canada, one of our best global leaders. Right. He's from the side that speaks French. The.

00:33:06:02 - 00:33:23:09
Alison
So, Neil, you clearly have a very enviable career. And I know everyone that's tuned in today and is with us in person would benefit from learning from your journey. So what's one piece of advice that you would leave our listeners with who want to follow in your success in your entrepreneurial career path?

00:33:23:11 - 00:33:45:07
Neil
The biggest thing that I've learned and knows from my mom if you don't try, you'll never receive. I want to say don't try. You know, people like, I'll just take a shot. I'm talking about trying crazy stuff. All right. So my mom immigrated from India. English was her second language back then. When she went to school, English was not the first language.

00:33:45:08 - 00:34:01:10
Neil
So when my mom came to the States as a teacher, she didn't have a teaching degree that was valid in the States, so she had to go to nighttime college we couldn't afford. We lived in long canals and we could not afford for daycare, but my dad had to work as well because you got to put food on the table.

00:34:01:12 - 00:34:23:01
Neil
And no joke, my mom pushed the stroller to school few miles a day each way there and back, then said, I'll teach for free if you keep my kids here while I teach to build up the hours, I can get my credits and they get my certification. She did it for six months. No pay. All right. Then one day when she started her own school, she did one of the craziest things ever.

00:34:23:03 - 00:34:41:21
Neil
And she's like this will work. And I'm like, what is it, mom? It's like, I'm going to go to all my competitor schools and tell them, hey, the state only allows you or the government only allows you to have so many kids based on the teacher ratio in class ratio. So you're full. Here's fliers I want you to give them to every single parent that comes in.

00:34:41:21 - 00:35:06:23
Neil
You're asking to put their kid into school when you don't have a spot. And she wasn't around to like 60 plus schools. Most of them just threw her fliers in the trash thinking she's crazy. A few of them center students. All of a sudden she went from making zero to over $100,000 a year, which is a lot of money, because she gave fliers to all her competitors and asked them to promote her school because they were full.

00:35:06:23 - 00:35:28:09
Neil
She didn't give them a commission, no affiliate deal, no money exchange. She just asked. And it worked. That was just crazy stuff that she would try. And she always taught me, if you don't ask, you'll never get. And I remember one day my dad took me to Nordstrom's because someone gave him a gift card. He would never naturally show off their expensive department store.

00:35:28:14 - 00:35:31:23
Neil
So we gave him a gift card. He's like, this blue.

00:35:31:23 - 00:35:32:21
Alison
Shirt is this same.

00:35:32:21 - 00:35:50:15
Neil
As this white shirt, same brand, but the white one is 50% off and the blue one is not. I want the blue one, but please give it to me at 50% off. And the lady is like, I can't do that. It's not on. So she's like, why not? You discount the other one. I want to speak to someone else.

00:35:50:17 - 00:35:53:04
Neil
They actually gave him 50% off. Then he.

00:35:53:04 - 00:35:53:23
Alison
Is they.

00:35:54:01 - 00:36:15:23
Neil
He uses gift card. But what my parents taught me is if you never ask, you'll never receipt. And they ask for the craziest stuff. And someone being in the corporate world, if you even work in the core folder, you're entrepreneur. It doesn't matter. You can ask and you'll be shocked and what you can receive. There is a guy named Rich Barton.

00:36:16:01 - 00:36:31:11
Neil
I don't know if you've ever heard his story. He created a company called Expedia. You guys know it's Expedia. Did you know he went to Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer and said, I want to create this company called Expedia. Give me a $100 million. I think it was like $100 million that he wanted. You know, what they did?

00:36:31:17 - 00:37:01:05
Neil
They did not give him $100 million. They thought, you can use a Microsoft name and our cloud will spin up, a separate company will raise it from other people, and we'll hook you up as well with equity and ownership. That is how he became rich. He convinced his boss. Technically, he asked his boss for a large sum of money or his boss's boss, and they said no, but they liked idea enough where they spun up a new company, took money from other people, and that's how Expedia was born.

00:37:01:06 - 00:37:22:18
Neil
The moral of the story is, most people would not ask their boss for $100,000,000 plus years ago, but he did. That $100 million was way more back then. Companies never raise that kind of money. In other words, if you don't ask, you'll never receive. It doesn't matter if you're an entrepreneur or you work for a corporation. If you have something that you truly believe in, fight for it.

00:37:22:20 - 00:37:42:02
Neil
Back up your data points with data and you know other people you know, agreeing with your signing off or backing you up and see how far you can go. And remember when you get to know a know, does it mean no? It just means not right now. So readjust your pitch and come back like, yeah, I know you said no, but I'm adjusting it.

00:37:42:06 - 00:37:54:23
Neil
And no just means not right now. And eventually people of that persistence, you may wear them down and get that. Yes.

00:37:55:01 - 00:38:21:15
Alison
Neil, thank you so much for a really great conversation, for a really great morning. It was a wonderful way to kick off CMA Marketing Week. I also want to say a huge thank you to everyone that's joined us in person and virtually across the country. Looking forward to seeing you at a lot of our events this week. We've got a great training session that's free for members this afternoon, and we've got a whole array of other in-person events, socials, professional development opportunities, and lots of ways for us to come together as a community.

00:38:21:21 - 00:38:29:17
Alison
But Neil, a huge thank you to you and friend P digital for kicking off our CMA marketing week and for a really great podcast conversation.

00:38:29:18 - 00:38:38:00
Neil
Thank you everyone.

00:38:38:02 - 00:38:50:16
Presenter
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