EP22 - Bridging Brand and Performance with Vivianne Gauci

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, explores balancing brand building and performance marketing with Vivianne Gauci, SVP of Consumer Experience and CMO at HomeEquity Bank. Vivianne advocates for the importance of data-driven decision-making and collaboration between brand and performance marketers to appreciate each other's value in the customer journey.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:14:13
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs.

00:00:14:15 - 00:00:22:12
Presenter
With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:14 - 00:00:45:18
Alison
In today's episode, we're tackling one of the most significant challenges that's facing marketers today. Finding the optimal balance between brand building and performance marketing. It's definitely been a debate that's been going on for many, many years with passionate advocates on both sides. But what if the answer lies not in choosing one over the other, but really and strategically blending the two?

00:00:45:20 - 00:01:05:22
Alison
Today, I'm absolutely thrilled to have Vivianne Gauci join us for an insightful conversation around finding the right balance between brand building and performance marketing. Vivianne is a Senior Vice President of Consumer Experience and Chief Marketing Officer at Home Equity Bank, where she's been leading the charge in driving business growth through a strategic blend of brand and performance marketing initiatives.

00:01:06:00 - 00:01:27:06
Alison
So Vivianne is going to bring you some very real world advice and some lessons from going through the journey herself. Vivianne's worked with two global and Canadian brands, including American Express, Aviva and now Home Equity Bank. So she's bringing a wealth of knowledge and a unique perspective to the table. She's also really known for her data-driven approach,

00:01:27:10 - 00:01:35:16
Alison
her ability to rally teams around a common vision and her unwavering focus on the customer experience. Welcome, Vivianne. I'm thrilled that you're here.

00:01:35:18 - 00:01:39:00
Vivianne
Thanks for having me, Alison. I'm so excited to be here.

00:01:39:02 - 00:01:49:12
Alison
I want to kick things off now with the question around, why, in your mind, has the balance between brand and performance marketing been a persistent pain point for marketers?

00:01:49:14 - 00:02:26:22
Vivianne
This is such an interesting question, and I think it's because there is no right answer in terms of what the right balance is. Because there's incredible value to both, and the right balance can be different depending on the industry, on the company objectives, on the stage of growth of your company. And so if you talk to different types of marketers, you'll get different perspectives on the value of their particular discipline and the challenges inherent with the other type of discipline.

00:02:26:23 - 00:02:50:06
Vivianne
So if you speak to a brand marketer, they might believe that short-term activation performance-based marketing can be a bad thing that erodes brand equity. Or it can even erode margins. And then if you talk to performance-based marketers, you'll find that they sometimes think that, you know, I can't draw the direct line between brand and results.

00:02:50:06 - 00:03:07:08
Vivianne
And, you know, that's what I'm used to. And as so often happens in these types of debates, the truth lies somewhere in the middle, in that there's value to both, and both short term and longer term marketing is important.

00:03:07:10 - 00:03:29:19
Alison
That's such a great perspective and you're so right that there's value in both. But if you've grown up in one side or the other, it tends to actually feed the combativeness or the commitment to either brand or performance marketing. And in my experience, and often it's because if they don't have experience doing the other thing, they don't appreciate what it can deliver on how the two can necessarily work together.

00:03:29:21 - 00:03:55:17
Vivianne
And, you know, for us, I think part of it is having these two types of marketers working closely together so that they can actually start to see the value in each other's practices. In fact, in one role in particular in my organization, and this is somebody who deals with communications and television as a channel specifically, they do both brand and performance.

00:03:55:19 - 00:04:19:04
Vivianne
So, you know, they really get an appreciation for the value of both. But what you end up seeing is that the closer they work together, the more they understand the value in how they interact as part of the customer journey and as part of the funnel. So they actually start to see, oh, okay, so brand creates this emotional connection and creates this affinity.

00:04:19:06 - 00:04:50:12
Vivianne
And then the performance marketer picks that up and picks up at that point in the journey and starts driving the customer touchpoint and driving immediate action. So you see the brand marketer triggers the emotional response, and the performance marketer triggers the action. They're both incredibly important because they're part of a continuous journey. So if you can get them working closely together, they'll understand the value of each discipline.

00:04:50:13 - 00:05:15:04
Alison
I love that example in seeing the light bulbs go off from where people that are representing different points of view, and instead of feeling like they're competing for the marketing dollars, really starting to collaborate and understand that they're complementing one another and that can build to a much greater outcome than doing it just one way. So as a CMO, how do you ensure that your marketing efforts are directly contributing to the overall growth of your business?

00:05:15:06 - 00:05:38:22
Vivianne
I see everything about my job as driving the overall growth of the business. And really, the first point is to understand the customer better than anyone else around the table and providing the insight that is needed to speak to them and ensuring that we're driving value to the customer. Because without starting, without driving value to the customer, you really don't have a business.

00:05:39:00 - 00:05:45:13
Vivianne
So that's the first point. That's a key power, superpower, shall we say, of the of the Chief Marketing Officer.

00:05:45:15 - 00:06:06:07
Alison
I totally agree that that's actually one of our superpowers. And it sounds so simple when you say it, but it can be harder to bring it to life. So as you're sitting around your executive table, really understanding your consumer to a greater degree than your colleagues possibly can, I'd love you to share a couple of examples of how you've helped them,

00:06:06:13 - 00:06:21:22
Alison
the lights go off for them and the value that you can bring, whether it's on the product side or the bank delivery side, or even on the HR side, by  really understanding and enlightening them with knowledge of who you're ultimately trying to attract and retain.

00:06:22:00 - 00:06:48:03
Vivianne
So I saw that you, and I heard with great interest, the fact that you interviewed Raja Rajamannar from Mastercard a little while ago. And I love his point. He talks about the CMO as having to evangelize for marketing and drive credibility for the function in the organization. And really, it comes down to the ability for a marketer to use data.

00:06:48:05 - 00:07:21:10
Vivianne
Data is going to be your best friend. In performance, it will give you the ability to drive the additional investment warranted. Your'll be able to prove your ability to drive performance, obviously, and then a brand, you'll use it to be able to determine what your brand activities drive in terms of behaviours. And so once you start making the connection between this brand activity drives this type of behaviour, you then have to be disciplined about tracking and presenting the data to your senior stakeholders.

00:07:21:12 - 00:07:48:16
Vivianne
So really it's about making sure that data is pulled in to be able to support what you're trying to drive in terms of the overall growth of the organization. And then I guess the other key piece in here is the part where we talk about customer experience. And for me, I love the fact that our organization, customer experience falls under the umbrella of marketing.

00:07:48:18 - 00:08:23:07
Vivianne
Because when you think about it, customer experience has three key elements. I like to think of it as discovery, design, and delivery. And in discovery, you're listening to your customer and understanding them deeply. Again, back to the CMO superpower of understanding the customer better than anyone else. What needs are not being met? How does the brand resonate? And so you really have this incredible power, being integral or having the customer experience side of the equation under your wings to make sure that you can understand that very deeply.

00:08:23:09 - 00:08:46:13
Vivianne
And then the elements of design and delivery is important because you can build an incredible marketing program, but if you can't deliver on the customer side of the equation, then you can waste a lot of resources. And you have to understand the journey that customers are taking. And it starts with their first interaction with the brand. It doesn't start necessarily, even on your website.

00:08:46:13 - 00:09:13:18
Vivianne
It starts with potentially something that they see out in the market in terms of a brand ad and then the next touchpoint might be a piece of your performance marketing, and then they start to engage with you in the organization. And so what happens there? Maybe there's a nurturing experience and then fulfillment and loyalty. So if you start to see that it's all part of the funnel, you can see how also the elements are so integrated.

00:09:13:19 - 00:09:39:13
Alison
I really like how you distilled it down to discover, design and deliver. It really helps keep you grounded as you're immersed in all aspects of that. So, Vivianne, I'd love to hear about your experience advocating for brand investment at Home Equity Bank and to walk us through that journey. I know from our earlier discussion it wasn't quick, as these things tend not to be, and there are inevitable sort of pivots and bumps along the road.

00:09:39:19 - 00:09:57:10
Alison
But to really understand how you got your own team on board, what were some of the challenges that you faced when making the case to the executive leadership team? And you also were doing this in a time where the economy was a little bit challenged, which would have added a whole other level of difficulty, I suspect, to what you successfully delivered.

00:09:57:12 - 00:10:22:12
Vivianne
Getting, you asked about the team, and getting the team on board was probably the easiest thing, the immediate team, because when you're predominantly a performance-based marketing organization, as we used to be, you know, you can actually start to see and feel where your performance marketing starts to get a bit sluggish. And you start to immediately think, oh, I've got to start thinking longer term, I, I have to start thinking, fill the top of that funnel.

00:10:22:14 - 00:10:52:07
Vivianne
So, you know, that's an interesting part of the equation because as performance marketers, you're seeing that very immediately and you're measuring that. You're seeing very quickly that you need to start thinking differently. And we didn't have it quite then yet. But we were also thinking, okay. And down the line we might have potential competitors. And so how do you start creating that moat to help protect us against any potential incursions?

00:10:52:09 - 00:11:15:04
Vivianne
So from there, you know, the good news was that there was broad recognition that thinking about brand would be good for the company, that we needed a bit of a refresh and we needed to think longer term. So that helped. But, you know, I won't lie. We, we stumbled when we came out with our new brand. We shortchanged ourselves a bit.

00:11:15:06 - 00:11:39:13
Vivianne
And so to create the splash that we wanted in brand, we slowed down on our performance investment. And this actually hurt us. And so we we actually had to retrench. So we had a bit of a learning, learning exercise. We took a pause. We got everything back to where it needed to be. And then we said, okay, let's explore what happened, because this is a learning, right.

00:11:39:14 - 00:12:10:00
Vivianne
So we we went in and we started analyzing all the data. And this is where I found what I considered to be another one of our marketing heroes, which is Binet and Field. The Long and the Short Of It. It's a famous study, and I was able to use that to help illustrate what actually happened to us. And that, yes, we had some short term negative impacts which, believe it or not, actually helped solidify our performance marketing investment because I was like, okay, we can't do that again.

00:12:10:01 - 00:12:27:23
Vivianne
I said, no, we can't do that again. But because of the analysis and we were able to kind of isolate, this is what happened when we were, you know, primarily brand. And this is what happens when we have a combination. And this is what happens when we are only performance. I was able to show them some of the green shoots.

00:12:27:23 - 00:12:56:01
Vivianne
Of course, brand takes longer, but I was able to show some of the green shoots of where brand was starting to help us make a difference, both qualitatively and quantitatively. So,  and again, it's back to those the, you know, thinking about what are the key metrics that brand investment helps to drive that aren't necessarily, you know, fully fleshed out and tied to the end result, but they are critical to starting getting the funnel going.

00:12:56:03 - 00:13:16:09
Vivianne
And so I showed research that just talked not about just sales results, but also about the company values, the other thing that I would say. So I tried to elevate the discussion that it wasn't just about our short term results, it was about some longer medium term results. And then I elevated it even further to talk about the overall value to the company

00:13:16:09 - 00:13:31:03
Vivianne
as a company. So the fact that brand investment could actually drive company value, and that's where I think it started to really resonate. So I think that third element of bringing it up to a higher level also helped.

00:13:31:05 - 00:13:51:11
Alison
Thank you for being so open and sharing some of the challenges that you managed through in a time like that, especially in an organization that had really depend depending on performance marketing and you were driving change to also bring brand to it, knowing the long term benefits of that, for sure, when it doesn't work fresh out of the gate, it certainly test your resolve.

00:13:51:11 - 00:14:13:12
Alison
I loved how you sort of retrenched and pivoted and used research and data, and also your knowledge around the green sprouts. Like you did see some early wins and some reasons to believe and stay committed to it. But clearly you leveraged very powerfully in convincing the rest of the organization. So kudos to you, because I know that's definitely not easy work.

00:14:13:14 - 00:14:30:06
Alison
Now, speaking of challenges, I also know that the pandemic forced many marketing plans to change course and you were not immune. So can you share an example of how you had to adapt your brand messaging in response to how Canadian consumer needs were changing, and as well as their sentiments during that time.

00:14:30:08 - 00:14:54:16
Vivianne
We'd probably been less than a year into our renewed level of brand investment after I had to make the case to get that brand investment back and and all of a sudden, March 2020 hit. And so we were at the time, we were showing an ad. It was our, I call it the sprinkler ad that for those of you who aren't familiar, this is for our product, the CHIP Reverse Mortgage.

00:14:54:18 - 00:15:16:19
Vivianne
But it was a brand ad, and it was one of the ads that showed a real estate agent coming to a couple in our demographic that we like to say age 55 and better. And, you know, it was, you know, she was coming knocking once again to see if they were ready to sell their home. And so the wife says, oh, boy, here comes that real estate agent again.

00:15:16:19 - 00:15:43:15
Vivianne
And husband says, don't worry, I got this. And you know, he basically clicks on a clicker and it turns on the sprinklers and he soaks the real estate agent. And so the couple has a chuckle and, and it's you know, it's all in great fun. And up until that time, and it was it's funny, that ad resonated so well because usually our audience in other ads, not ours, but in other ads in the media, we did a study.

00:15:43:17 - 00:16:07:17
Vivianne
What we saw was our audience, our our demographic of age 55 and better is often the butt of the jokes, is often the target of the jokes. Right? And believe it or not, you know, they're treated in a very patronizing way. They're minimized. And in this case, they were the ones in, in on the joke. Right? They were making the joke.

00:16:07:17 - 00:16:30:05
Vivianne
So so that, you know, that was really empowering and resonated so well with our audience. And we got like, maybe 1 or 2 complaints from real estate agents when we first aired the ad and, you know, we said, okay, well, we understand, you know, we get it. The joke was on them, but then all of a sudden, the pandemic hit and everyone was locked down at home.

00:16:30:11 - 00:16:55:06
Vivianne
Everyone was feeling a little bit more sensitive, anxious and, you know, some very real emotions close to the surface. And now all of a sudden, we started getting complaints from our customers. And, you know, that maybe, maybe we were being a bit mean to the poor real estate agent. And so we realized, okay, you know, and again, another great reason why it's good to have CX close to the organization.

00:16:55:06 - 00:17:19:03
Vivianne
We were hearing this directly from our contact centre, which reported to me. And, you know, we said, okay, maybe it's time we have to stop these ads and pivot. And when we did that, we went to our agency, Zulu Alpha Kilo. And they were able to help us pivot quite quickly with some user-generated content around the theme of, you know, very relevant at the time,

00:17:19:03 - 00:17:37:18
Vivianne
Home is Everything. Because everybody was at home at the time and it was, you know, we were able to get those ads out in record time and those tested incredibly well and did really well for us as well, because it was the right message for the time. And people were were happy to hear it.

00:17:37:20 - 00:18:00:00
Alison
Vivianne, that's a great example. It's also a great example of how quickly consumer sentiment can change certainly when there's a compelling event like a pandemic, and the way that you were able to once again pivot and really draw on an insight that was also a result of the pandemic where Home is Everything so quickly, really is powerful. I also have to say, I love that - 55 and better.

00:18:00:05 - 00:18:04:02
Alison
I'm gonna definitely be using that.

00:18:04:04 - 00:18:08:06
Vivianne
We get we get a lot of, compliments on that, actually.

00:18:08:08 - 00:18:11:18
Alison
It's very true. That's a mindset we should all embrace.

00:18:11:20 - 00:18:13:02
Vivianne
Absolutely.

00:18:13:04 - 00:18:30:18
Alison
So how important is it to have the CEO's buy in on marketing as being a key driver of business strategy, and as someone with a performance marketing background, how did you go about establishing trust and credibility with the C-suite before advocating for the brand investments that you were able to successfully sell through.

00:18:30:20 - 00:19:03:18
Vivianne
Getting the CEO on board is everything. There was actually a recent McKinsey study that said that CEOs who place marketing at the core of their growth strategies are twice as likely as their peers to have greater than 5% annual growth. So you can see that making sure that marketing is at the core of the strategy for the CEO, that it's important for driving results for the organization.  But it's our responsibility as marketers, as a CMO, to get the CEO on board.

00:19:03:20 - 00:19:29:03
Vivianne
So I was very fortunate to have both an existing CEO and a CFO who had believed in the power of effective marketing, and it really just started with showing the discipline we had with our performance investments and being able to show consistently over time that our investments were driving results. And we actually have a new incoming CEO, just announced,

00:19:29:05 - 00:19:58:02
Vivianne
And we we recently took her through all of the work that we've been doing. But my biggest section by far was on measuring and driving performance across all of our areas, not just performance marketing. So how do we measure and drive performance on brand, on PR, on all of our CX work? All of that was included, and it's important because it's a key to driving credibility.

00:19:58:03 - 00:20:20:08
Vivianne
So that's where it starts. But then you also have to show alignment to this, you know, how does marketing align to the strategic priorities of the company, you know, show that you're an insights engine. Because by showing that you're an insights engine, again, you can demonstrate your your super power as a CMO that, you know, you can help drive decision-making.

00:20:20:08 - 00:20:49:22
Vivianne
You can help also empower and facilitate decision-making throughout the organization. And then also showing how you're empowering others in the organization is also key and then also showing how you drive critical project impact. But I think it all starts with showing how disciplined you are. Goes back to the the data- centricity and showing how your how you can actually drive performance in the organization, how you have and how you continue to do so.

00:20:50:00 - 00:21:13:06
Alison
I'm in such passionate agreement with you. It really is. It builds credibility and speaking the language of business, is also speaking the language of the CEO and CFO. And when they have the confidence that marketers are there to successfully build their business and help them achieve their goals, it becomes a fundamentally different conversation. So what advice do you have for marketers on communicating and influencing across the organization?

00:21:13:06 - 00:21:15:19
Alison
That's clearly something that you do well.

00:21:15:21 - 00:21:47:11
Vivianne
For me, it goes back to data. We have so much data. We have data about the customer. We have data about the funnel, data about the market. So part of it and goes back to what we talked about earlier about the CMO as evangelist. But part of that role means you're also there to help your colleagues better understand their own points of leverage and where they can drive value through those points of leverage so that you can help them in turn be more successful.

00:21:47:14 - 00:22:13:10
Vivianne
So building excellent partnerships with sales, with individuals in operations across the organization, really to make sure that you can work together to to drive ultimate success for the organization. And then, you know, just make sure you're showing how you're not only being a good steward of resources, but you're helping to drive impact to strategic projects across the organization.

00:22:13:12 - 00:22:33:02
Vivianne
And how you connect to the overall strategy of the company and how you drive growth. I think that those are important, but I think it really starts with what's in it for them and what you bring to the table. It's again insights and data that that can help them make better decisions and help them drive their own success.

00:22:33:04 - 00:22:41:20
Alison
Vivianne, you've got an absolutely enviable career. So I want to close off our discussion by having you share one piece of advice that you would give our listeners.

00:22:41:22 - 00:23:07:00
Vivianne
You know, I was thinking about this question because I know you ask it and, you know, I tossed between two key skill sets that are critical for any marketer to develop. And the first is obviously leadership, because even even as a young marketer starting out, you're always leading teams in some way, shape or form, even if it's just leading your agency to help deliver excellent creative.

00:23:07:02 - 00:23:42:08
Vivianne
But I think the number one most important thing for anybody in marketing is to develop their communication skills. Because it's the ability to do this work that we talked about in terms of being able to communicate compelling value and communicate in a way that gets people to move and move to action. And being able to do that by appealing not just to their minds, but also to their hearts, because we know that in any type of decision-making, there's always both the heart and mind equation that's involved.

00:23:42:10 - 00:23:59:15
Vivianne
So I think being able to develop that skill set where you become not just really good at it, but also very comfortable at it, and I think it's a lifelong endeavour to get there. But I think being able to develop that skill set is is probably one of the most important ones for any marketer.

00:23:59:17 - 00:24:14:01
Alison
That's great advice, Vivianne, I really want to thank you for joining us today and for really giving us very actionable advice and for being very open and sharing the journey that you've led and led very successfully. So it's been an absolute pleasure, and I hope you have a great rest of your day.

00:24:14:03 - 00:24:21:05
Vivianne
Thank you, Alison, for having me. It's a pleasure being here.

00:24:21:07 - 00:24:33:20
Presenter
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