EP23 - Mastering Customer Experience with Alessandra Bisaillon, Lesley Haibach, and Sue Sharp

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes three members of the CMA's CX Council: Alessandra Bisaillon, Director of Marketing and Media Relations at Farm Boy Company Inc., Lesley Haibach EVP, Customer Experience at Ipsos Limited Partnership, and Sue Sharp, Partner and National Lead, Customer Experience Transformation & CMO Advisory at PwC Management Services LLP. Their discussion sheds light on how crucial and influential customer experience has become, why service design plays a critical part and the importance of understanding the customer journey.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:03
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shift that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:05 - 00:00:44:08
Alison
In today's episode, we're diving into a topic that's becoming increasingly critical for marketers. Customer experience or it's a continues to play a larger role in marketers scope of responsibilities. It is absolutely essential to understand the tools and frameworks that can help us excel in this area. And one such framework is service design, which we'll be talking a bit about today.

00:00:44:09 - 00:01:14:13
Alison
So service design is a powerful approach that helps organizations systematically understand, align, and optimize their resources and processes to enhance both the employee as well as the customer experience. By leveraging service design principles, marketers can create more cohesive, meaningful, and memorable experiences that really drive brand loyalty and ultimately grow businesses. So, to help us navigate this topic, I have three members of our Canadian Marketing Association joining me today.

00:01:14:15 - 00:01:42:18
Alison
Lesley Haibach is the EVP, Customer Experience Leader at Ipsos. Alessandra Bisaillon is the head of marketing and media relations at Farmboy Company, Inc., and Susan Sharp is a partner and national lead Customer Experience Transformation and the CMO advisory at PWC. They each bring a unique perspective and a wealth of expertise in both CX and service design. So today is absolutely going to be an illuminating and engaging conversation.

00:01:42:20 - 00:02:03:21
Alison
Throughout the discussion, Lesley, Alessandra, and Susan are going to explore why marketing and CX are so tightly intertwined. We'll also talk about what sets organizations that excel at service design apart, and what marketers can do to start embedding service design as a capability within their teams and enterprises. So I'm thrilled to have three talented guests joining us today.

00:02:03:22 - 00:02:07:01
Alison
So a big welcome to Lesley, Sue and Alessandra

00:02:07:03 - 00:02:08:11
Sue
Thanks, Alison.

00:02:08:13 - 00:02:08:23
Lesley
Thank you.

00:02:08:23 - 00:02:10:11
Alessandra
Thank you.

00:02:10:13 - 00:02:21:12
Alison
Now I want to kick things off by asking why our marketing and customer experience so tightly coupled. And how does service design play a role. Lesley why don't you kick us off?

00:02:21:14 - 00:02:57:08
Lesley
Sure. That would be great. Thank you. Alison. And this is a very important question. In fact, I'm sure all three of us would strongly agree that CX is one of the most important considerations for an organization and that its importance is often underestimated. It's critical for organizations to understand why marketing and customer experience need to be so intertwined. What we're seeing is more and more consumers interactions with the brand are really driven by their own experiences, and not necessarily marketing initiatives or the advertising of that brand.

00:02:57:10 - 00:03:23:20
Lesley
In fact, we know from our own Ipsos research that two thirds of consumers will select a brand based on the experiences they've had and nothing else. And that's almost twice the percentage of any other reason for interacting. Whether that's brand image, word of mouth, social media, and why that is is because customers create their own expectations for brand, and these expectations are based on their own experiences, the marketing they see,

00:03:23:22 - 00:03:49:04
Lesley
the advertising from, things they've heard from their friends and family. However, when these customers actually interact with that brand, the experience delivered is either going to meet their expectations, it's going to exceed them, or it's going to fail to meet them. And if a customer's expectations are continually being unmet, their risk of turning to a different brand.

00:03:49:06 - 00:04:22:10
Lesley
So often organizations, you know, we find do look at brand health and their marketing initiatives and customer experience metrics. But they often do this in isolation of one another. And we find that can be very misleading and really underscores the reason why organizations need to look at them together. And I give you an example of this. We did a study a few years ago in the grocery industry here in Canada, and we designed our study to look at both brand health metrics and key metrics.

00:04:22:12 - 00:04:51:17
Lesley
When we initially started looking at this, if we looked at, let's say, two brands in particular, if we just looked at their brand metrics, we have a clear leader based on the amount market share, the attitudinal, equity, brand love all of these things that are important from a marketing perspective. But when we layered in the customer experience metrics, we quickly found that that leading brand was actually on a declining trajectory, and it was the number two brand that was actually in growth mode.

00:04:51:19 - 00:05:13:21
Lesley
What was happening was brand number one wasn't delivering the experiences to the level of expectation of their customers. So despite their current market lead, the brand was heading towards a sharp decline. Whereas for the second brand, their experiences were meeting or exceeding expectations and we could see how they were very rapidly picking up market share and were growing.

00:05:13:23 - 00:05:42:23
Lesley
So for the first brand, it was important for them to understand how to deliver experiences that would at least meet expectations of their customers. And this is really where service design comes into play. When an organization is not meeting their customers expectations. They need to take the time to evaluate and redesign those experiences so that they can continue to drive customer loyalty and maintain and grow their share of that.

00:05:43:01 - 00:05:59:18
Alison
Let's say thank you very much for sharing that in the grocery example. Now, you and I are both have been doing this for a few decades now. So certainly early in my career, marketing and CX wasn't something we talked about a lot in marketing. And if it existed in the companies we were in, it certainly wasn't part of marketing.

00:05:59:18 - 00:06:08:12
Alison
So I'd love to hear you share. Like, what do you think has brought those together and made CX a bigger priority for marketers today?

00:06:08:14 - 00:06:31:01
Lesley
I think it really comes back to this example that we shared in the fact that if companies are finding this disconnect in their results based on their marketing, and I think as they start to connect the dots and go, well, wait a second, why is my marketing no longer being what's driving people in? And the fact that we now know it's their own experiences has forced a lot of work and ization to really say, you know what?

00:06:31:01 - 00:06:38:06
Lesley
There's something here that's disconnecting, and we need to find a way to make sure we are meeting those expectations of our customers.

00:06:38:07 - 00:06:41:23
Alison
In many ways, it's an early indicator, early warning system email.

00:06:41:23 - 00:07:09:07
Sue
So add to that that you know traditionally is marketers. And then we'll talk more about this a little bit later. But traditionally as marketers we have always been how do we how do we drive demand. Right. And thinking about growth through demand and conversion. But lately and we all know with the economy the way it is, we've had to really kind of pivot into retention.

00:07:09:09 - 00:07:33:03
Sue
Well, what does retention look like? Retention. There's a resounding element of customer experience through all of your retention capability. Right. So so it is really tightly coupled. And having it sit outside kind of as a standard or somewhere else in an organization, I think puts an organization more at risk. It really does become part of what marketers after.

00:07:33:05 - 00:07:44:15
Alison
That's a great add on, Sue, thank you very much. Now I'd like to hear what are organizations that are really excelling at service design. What are they doing differently? Lesley, do you want to kick this off?

00:07:44:17 - 00:08:05:06
Lesley
We found that when an organization is optimizing their experiences through service design, we found that they do kind of one of all of these five tips. And they may not realize they're doing these five things exactly the way that they are, but it really is the foundational pieces to making sure that everything comes together. So part of it is research, right?

00:08:05:07 - 00:08:25:14
Lesley
Research has to do is to start with the research. But that research also has to evolve. So for example, in my grocery store example you needed a starting point. We needed to understand the circumstance of brand one and brand two. But as we try to redesign those experiences for brand one, you need to be able to have research to help you do that.

00:08:25:14 - 00:08:55:10
Lesley
What's working, what's not. And then once you decide to implement whatever's the best solution, you need to continuously monitor that. That's the first one. Second one is alignment of your leadership. This needs to happen across all functions in an organization because we know that while experiences are truly delivered at the front line, if you don't have leadership alignment from the top down, anything new you try is not necessarily going to be successfully implemented and maintained.

00:08:55:12 - 00:09:19:17
Lesley
And then there's the operationalization of all these experiences, because it's not enough for the leaders themselves to be aligned on the functions. Customer experience has to focus across all levels of the organization. So whether an organization does regular meetings, other initiatives, huddles, whatever it is, each part of the business has to be accountable for it to some degree and measured on that.

00:09:19:19 - 00:09:47:08
Lesley
And we see this often a lot of resistance with organizations that say, but my back office doesn't deal with clients, not directly, perhaps, but they do have internal clients. And all of those things have an impact on your ultimate customer. So making sure the back office is considered as well is critical. And then measurement of ROI, right? If you're delivering the right experiences to your customers, you need to understand the ROI of doing that.

00:09:47:10 - 00:10:10:01
Lesley
We like to call it an Ipsos proxy, a return on customer experience investment. But every function in the organization needs to have their own KPIs. And you need to be able to analyze these against CX. So looking at things like what's your return on investment when it comes to brand or NPS or basket size or traffic counts? All of these things can be impact by service delivery.

00:10:10:03 - 00:10:41:03
Lesley
And the last one is about sustaining all of this across all functions, and knowing when it's time to step back and reevaluate or treat tweak experiences that you're delivering. And it doesn't matter the size of the organization, these principles can apply in all cases because most organizations have these functions across the business, and it's about creating a CX design and strategy that will go across the entire organization, whether there's 100 employees or 100,000.

00:10:41:05 - 00:10:43:19
Lesley
And I think, Alessandra you had an example of this, right?

00:10:43:21 - 00:11:13:15
Alessandra
Absolutely. Yeah. And in terms of one organization that we discussed that really delivers a consistent and positive experience, its customers is Starbucks. And they have truly mastered all five components of the service design framework, particularly when it comes to operationalizing the experience and also from a sustainability perspective. They also intentionally make the experience of their customers a personal one, whether it's with every order or every visit.

00:11:13:16 - 00:11:35:00
Alessandra
And when you do visit a Starbucks, you know the staff is so knowledgeable about every coffee blend menu item. They truly are amazing in terms of executing the personalization of offers, which essentially they've also successfully done through their systems. And Lesley mentioned a little bit about, you know, the backstage, the back office. They do a really great job of that as well.

00:11:35:06 - 00:11:51:05
Alessandra
And then of course, there's the data and research component. And, you know, leveraging insights and data to really bring that on to life. So we felt that this was a really good example of one organization that has truly mastered all five components of service design.

00:11:51:07 - 00:11:55:15
Alison
Lesley, thank you very much for distilling it down to those five core principles and analysis.

00:11:55:15 - 00:12:15:05
Alison
And to bring it to life with an example is great. And it's also a really good segue into the next piece that I want to dig in, which is around data, research and sustainability. So let's dive deeper into research measure and sustain. And why are these are critical ongoing aspects of service design and CX. Sue I'd love you to take the lead on this.

00:12:15:07 - 00:12:42:14
Sue
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. I think I'm going to start with a statement that when you think about research, measure and sustain, it's obviously not once and done, it's ongoing. If I start with research, you really need to think about gaining that deep understanding of the customer, your customer across channels, the customer's perception of your brand, their experience with it is critical.

00:12:42:14 - 00:13:12:21
Sue
As Lesley pointed out earlier. The key here for us as marketers is to look at the end to end state of the client experience and understanding the highs and the lows of the interactions your client has, whether it's the online channel, the the mobile channel, or the in-person or, you know, your call center. You have to think about how that that customer is interacting with your front line or through the tools that you've enabled for self-service.

00:13:12:23 - 00:13:36:21
Sue
And it's this core. It's really core to understanding and prioritizing what problems you need to solve to deliver on your vision. And I like to talk in problems we're solving because to me that's a need. It's a need based way to think about what you need to do to to enable a better customer experience. Just because it's cooling fancy doesn't mean you need to go and do it.

00:13:36:23 - 00:14:03:19
Sue
So this understanding and the prioritization of what problems we're solving are will become your benchmark. And through sustain ultimately your guide. Now too often we see clients that they think they know their client experience. They don't want to do the research. They don't want to invest in that. They think that they can act as the client and give them give feedback.

00:14:03:21 - 00:14:30:03
Sue
This is a trap that a lot of organizations fall into, and it really holds back the organization from from succeeding in CX and specifically in service design. So your research will help fuel your initiatives and true transforming. And it is the critical element in creating the alignment for your vision across your organization and for helping to sustain and evolve the vision.

00:14:30:05 - 00:15:00:18
Sue
So those data points really, really hit home for executives across the board. In service design, we often talk about a service blueprint, the blueprint gives an organization a holistic view of what needs to happen to make your vision work. So we've talked a lot about kind of thinking across the business. And you think about the customer interaction, the middle office layer and interaction and process, the back office process and what technology we need to have in place to support it.

00:15:00:20 - 00:15:30:00
Sue
It's a lot, but I think as marketers, we're good leaders, we're good collaborators, and we have a role to play in in this effort to really help drive change and growth through customer experience. So while we might be, as I said earlier, focus on the top of the funnel and demand generation or acquisition, but more and more of us have to start thinking about our efforts, about retention.

00:15:30:02 - 00:16:07:05
Sue
So, as Lesley pointed out, it truly impacts customer retention and your brand. And thinking about that churn that happens when we get disappointed by a brand. I think there a research from Gartner saying 32% of people will leave a brand after two bad experiences. So that's truly impactful to if you're thinking about your retention. So we as marketers need to lead in advocating for customers throughout our organizations, representing their voice with our ongoing research and collaborating with our business partners to deliver growth.

00:16:07:07 - 00:16:36:16
Sue
So that's kind of the core on the research. We talk about measurement. And and I think about measurement as a way to help prioritize initiatives and demonstrate the impact, of CX. So Lesley, you talked about Roxy. We call it return on experience at PWC, it's when we start to organizations start to achieve their CX vision. You can quickly realize there is a lot to be done.

00:16:36:18 - 00:17:02:01
Sue
And just, you know, mentioning the research helps us understand and prioritize the problems we solve at solving. We have to break it down into what service design we call micro journeys. These micro journeys might be prioritized based on potential impact to customers, the impact to your business, and your ability to execute. So really kind of think through where should we be making these investments for change?

00:17:02:03 - 00:17:30:00
Sue
The micro journey for each CX initiative. If you should be measuring the current state and then impact of the new or revised design. So you might be measuring or looking at your digital data. It might be saving time on a manual process versus an automated process. It might mean a reduction in errors. So this is really where you bring all of these elements together.

00:17:30:02 - 00:17:55:07
Sue
Front of the house, middle of house, back of the house to see how that change can actually impact your business over time. You use these measurements to test and learn and you refine your micro journey. And it's so important because understanding all these components will help demonstrate the impact of cost to the organization and leadership, and start to create some momentum.

00:17:55:09 - 00:18:20:20
Sue
This is where sustain really comes in. Think about how you consistently research through voice of customer programs, taking learnings to not only improve on your CX, but also your operations, your products, and your services. This is key information that needs to be shared throughout the organization to enable change. And I think this is where marketers can really shine.

00:18:20:22 - 00:18:46:12
Alison
Sue, thank you so much. You shared so much great advice. You also highlighted just because it's cool and shiny doesn't mean you need to do it. And then you also calling out the mission critical role that research can play in helping both understand and then prioritize. What are the problems we're solving? We're always challenge for where to make the investment from a marketing perspective, and that's a really important call out.

00:18:46:14 - 00:19:12:02
Alison
And then you also acknowledging that as marketers, we're definitely good leaders or good collaborators. I would add to that we're great storytellers, so we're able to help the organizations understand why CX is such a mission critical. Part of what we're doing. So now, I would love to turn it over to you, Alessandra, to share how service design can help fuel alignment within organizations.

00:19:12:04 - 00:19:39:09
Alessandra
That's a really great question, and thank you. Based on the five touchpoints that we discussed, I do believe that without alignment within your organization, the other pieces of the framework will fall apart. This is so critical. And we know that service design can help organizations achieve a best in class customer experience and their business objectives. However, CX is not the responsibility of just one.

00:19:39:09 - 00:20:17:00
Alessandra
So function. And Lesley alluded to this at the beginning of our discussion. All departments across the organization really need to prioritize CX and be measured against it. as we discussed. And this really does require senior leadership alignment of all functions. So whether it's marketing, sales, finance, procurement, category management, operations, customer service or IT, the list goes on, all functions of the business really need to have CX as a key business priority, and they need to keep it aligned with constant focus.

00:20:17:02 - 00:20:37:23
Alessandra
So I'll give an example. from a grocery industry perspective, at Farm Boy, we actually have a customer experience committee that consists of various leads from different functions. And really this is to ensure that CX is always top of mind. And at the end of the day, it truly is the heart of everything we do at Farm Boy.

00:20:38:01 - 00:21:00:10
Alessandra
And a priority for all of our departments. So what we have our monthly CX meetings that actually take place whereby we discuss processes, procedures, all of that is reviewed, including any customer comments or feedback that comes in from our customer service department. So that as a as a committee, we can further understand, you know, what are the deficiencies?

00:21:00:10 - 00:21:29:02
Alessandra
Are there gaps that need to be addressed? And oftentimes, even if they're not these monthly focused discussions, when we're reviewing procedures, they actually expose weak links and misalignment if there is. And that really allows the committee to also devise collaborative and cross-functional solutions. On the other hand, you know, if you take a larger enterprise like a bank, it's really important to think across the lines of business.

00:21:29:02 - 00:21:47:17
Alessandra
So beyond just functions or departments in order to keep CX top of mind. So working horizontally across the organization. And so how would a large organization do that successfully while setting up a governance structure in a larger organization? That's obviously going to involve a lot.

00:21:47:17 - 00:21:48:04
Alessandra
More team members

00:21:48:18 - 00:22:14:01
Alessandra
and different lines of business. And that magnitude is going to vary by organization, but really setting up a disciplined cadence of whether it's CX meetings, ensuring that CX is layered into the businesses scorecard is so critical. We mentioned this earlier from a measurement perspective. You know, it's vital in order for the service design framework to be successful, that those KPIs are embedded.

00:22:14:03 - 00:22:25:00
Alessandra
So for larger organizations, you may actually need both a working committee and a steer co to be set up for success and work horizontally across the organization.

00:22:25:02 - 00:22:38:07
Alison
Thanks, Alessandra. Your found by example really is an illuminating one, and it's also a great way on a monthly basis to ensure that the customer voice is front and center, not just for marketing, but across the organization.

00:22:38:07 - 00:22:52:14
Alison
So I really love that example. Now, Lesley, I'd love to turn it back to you to share what organizations should be considering when they're starting to embed service design as a capability, especially in larger enterprises.

00:22:52:16 - 00:23:24:03
Lesley
Great. Thank you. Allison. It's a great question. But when you think about a larger organization, in particular an organization that has hundreds or thousands of locations, how can you actually guarantee a consistent experience at every touchpoint? So using service design, you can create customer centric journey maps. You can make sure that you improve all of your user experiences online and in mobile apps, and you need to be able to use it to think about an omnichannel experience versus what often is a multi-channel experience, right?

00:23:24:04 - 00:23:50:05
Lesley
So you need that seamlessness across every touchpoint that a customer can interact with you. So these things can all help you to ensure you've got that consistency across all of your interactions. I want to kind of bring this to life with an example. We once had a client who, in their call center, used our service design approach to improve the experiences of their live agent interactions on their telephone banking center.

00:23:50:07 - 00:23:58:19
Lesley
We started by identifying all of the pain points, and once we done that, as well as the ideal experience that their clients were looking for, we were able.

00:23:58:19 - 00:23:59:08
Sue
To.

00:23:59:10 - 00:24:21:16
Lesley
Help them create and develop the new way that the experiences should look. But there was more to it than that, because it's one thing to just say, we're going to redesign our experience, but what impact does that have on all other parts of the organization? So we had to include training to bring in, you know, new training documents of how the process was going to be designed and executed.

00:24:21:18 - 00:24:40:14
Lesley
We had to bring in hiring teams to be able to say, how do you ensure that you're bringing new people into the company who can actually fulfill and deliver on those new experiences? And it meant that you also had to be able to redo all of your process maps and make sure that everyone was aligned in that consistent experience.

00:24:40:16 - 00:25:09:01
Lesley
So all of these things just emphasize the point that, you know, making the service design encompass all of your functions within an organization is really critical to its success. And of course, though with larger organizations, it also means there are more people to impact greater complexity across all functions. So you have to have that right governance structure, and it has to be inclusive of all stakeholders across all business functions.

00:25:09:01 - 00:25:42:07
Lesley
And Alessandra mentioned here. You know, some companies will have a governance structure that includes a steer co and a working committee. Those are some of the things you need to make sure you incorporate, to make sure that your experiences are seamless and that your decision making processes are also aligned and also seamless. So, you know, making sure that everyone in your organization has their eye on CX and the design of the experiences and services will lead to improved customer loyalty and just overall better business success.

00:25:42:09 - 00:26:05:23
Alison
Sue. Lesley and Alessandra, I really want to thank you. This has been a very robust and very action oriented conversation around CX, so marketers, regardless of where they are in their journey in embedding CX into their marketing work. We'll actually have some really great takeaways. Before I let you go on with your workdays. You each have really terrific and varied experience and certainly enviable careers.

00:26:06:01 - 00:26:14:02
Alison
So I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners. And, Alessandra, I'd love you to kick us off.

00:26:14:04 - 00:26:30:11
Alessandra
Sure. One piece of advice I'd like to give is, is for marketers to always remain curious and not be afraid to really test and learn new tactics with your teams or with your agency partners in order to ensure that you're really providing that exceptional experience for your customers.

00:26:30:11 - 00:26:59:14
Alessandra
Each and every time, it's that consistency that is key that we talked about, especially because the landscape of marketing and retail overall is changing so rapidly. We need to continue to evolve. We have to stay relevant and test and learn. And you know, you may not always get it right. And that's okay. But the learnings and the rewards that actually come out of innovative pilots through testing and learning can oftentimes result in significant returns for organizations.

00:26:59:16 - 00:27:05:20
Alessandra
And at the same time, you're successfully fostering innovation and creativity for your marketing team.

00:27:05:22 - 00:27:07:20
Alison
Thanks. I'm going to turn it over to Lesley.

00:27:07:22 - 00:27:35:14
Lesley
So I think we see our world rapidly changing with new technology and AI, but even though that despite that change, some things are just going to remain the same. We can't, as part of that, forget human intelligence. Customers want us to provide experiences that they can trust. They want to feel they're valued, and they want to feel that both the organization and its employees empathize with their unique circumstances.

00:27:35:15 - 00:27:50:22
Lesley
And so how we can show that we value those customers, how we build trust and how we show our empathetic human side might change with technology. The need for these things is going to remain.

00:27:51:00 - 00:28:02:12
Alison
You're absolutely right there. The fundamentals of what we do aren't changing, but the how we do them certainly is evolving. And that's terrific advice. So Sue, I'm going to hand it over to you to close our discussion today.

00:28:02:14 - 00:28:29:08
Sue
Absolutely. Thanks. So I mean, a large part of this has been focus on service design. And when you think about that, it's about creating exceptional customer experiences by improving both tangible and intangible services. And it could be interactions processes, communications. And when you think kind of underneath that, it aligns with what we would call user centered design or user centric thinking.

00:28:29:10 - 00:29:00:07
Sue
and aims to enhance both your customer satisfaction and your business outcomes. So my I have three points. So point number one to that end is really involve user throughout the process. If you're jumping into service design. And frankly kind of what Alessandra was saying is be curious about your customers throughout any process. Meet real world needs and expectations of your customers and your frontline staff.

00:29:00:10 - 00:29:27:12
Sue
Engage with them. Learn from them, and really ask a lot of questions. But don't just ask them once. Ask them throughout your design process. Second point is really collaborate. Collaborate. Collaborate. We mentioned it earlier. Service design can't be done in one functional area alone. It takes a village lead from the customer's viewpoint and share your insights. I think marketing's really positioned well to do that.

00:29:27:14 - 00:30:01:22
Sue
And then lastly finally is start small but think big. Start with a pilot project or specific touchpoints and gradually with successful Roxy or rocks in hand, expand to larger service improvements. And this will help you to minimize risk as you start out your journey and also to to start building momentum. And I think, you know, to your point early around the Starbucks journey into personalization, they started small and they grew and scaled.

00:30:02:00 - 00:30:06:14
Sue
And that's I think ultimately where we want to go. But you got to start small.

00:30:06:16 - 00:30:22:14
Alison
That is absolutely terrific advice from the three of you to end on. And our listeners, if they take that and start actioning it in the days and months ahead, they will absolutely get even stronger at their craft. So many thanks to the three of you for a really robust and terrific discussion.

00:30:22:16 - 00:30:24:07
Sue
Thank you for having us. Yes.

00:30:24:07 - 00:30:24:16
Lesley
Thank you.

00:30:24:17 - 00:30:31:07
Alessandra
Thank you for having us.

00:30:31:09 - 00:30:43:22
Presenter
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