EP26 - Unlocking B2B Growth Strategies with Eric Tang and Mary-Jane Owen

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, hosts a discussion with two members of the CMA's B2B Council, Mary-Jane Owen, Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and Eric Tang, Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Together, Mary-Jane and Eric redefine what brand-building means in 2024, explore effective and efficient brand-building strategies, and explore the challenges B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:22:21
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business meetings with your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:22 - 00:00:56:16
Alison
In today's episode, we're diving deep into the realm of B2B marketing, focusing on the critical roles that brand building and digital marketing play in generating leads and ultimately in  driving sales. Joining me today are two exceptional guests and also members of our CMA's B2B Council. They both bring a wealth of experience and diverse perspectives. So I'm joined by Mary-Jane Owen, who is the Founder and President of Asset Digital Communications and is renowned for her data-driven approach to digital marketing, as well as her ability to consistently deliver impressive ROI for her clients.

00:00:56:18 - 00:01:28:07
Alison
Eric Tang also joins me, and he is the Executive Vice President and Managing Director at Porter Novelli Canada. Eric is known for his expertise in crafting compelling brand narratives and strategies that really resonate with B2B audiences. Together, Mary Jane and Eric will help us redefine what brand building means in 2024. They're also going to share examples of creative and cost effective brand building tactics, and explore the challenges that B2B companies face when determining the right mix of investments in brand and digital marketing.

00:01:28:09 - 00:01:52:19
Alison
We're also discussing how to reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey, and to leverage the power of both brand building and demand generation to drive sustained business growth. So whether you're a seasoned B2B marketer or just starting your career, this episode is absolutely going to be jam packed with valuable insights and actionable advice that you can apply to your own organization.

00:01:52:21 - 00:02:06:21
Alison
And while we're focusing on B2B, it will also have a lot of really valuable insights for marketers in the consumer and other fields as well. So on that note, I would love to welcome Mary-Jane and Eric to our episode today. 

Mary-Jane
Thank you Alison.

00:02:06:23 - 00:02:08:08
Eric
Thank you so much.

00:02:08:10 - 00:02:20:06
Alison
Mary-Jane and Eric. I'm going to kick off by asking you both, what is your definition of brand building and digital marketing when it comes in the context of B2B? Mary-Jane, why don't you kick things off?

00:02:20:08 - 00:02:46:07
Mary-Jane
Well, I have to say that when it comes to the B2B space, brand building hasn't really been very well understood and there's often been a real reluctance to invest in those longer term marketing initiatives and a focus rather on like diverting marketing budget to the more short term lead generation type activities where the ROI was much more immediate.

00:02:46:09 - 00:03:20:23
Eric
I want to build on what Mary-Jane was just saying, and by just looking at the notion of brand building, you know, traditionally, you know, brand building is often equates to storytelling. And if we just use that lens, then yes, Mary-Jane is absolutely right, it's really hard to demonstrate quantitatively. How do you measure the impact of storytelling? But if you broaden the lens of brand building to other aspects, then it starts getting interesting and much more measurable, which I'm sure today we'll talk more about.

00:03:21:01 - 00:03:36:13
Alison
Thank you very much. I want to ask a follow up question on that. You both mentioned that historically, it's been a harder sell to B2B to invest in brand building. Are you starting to see that change, and what do you think some of the key drivers behind that are?

00:03:36:15 - 00:04:02:15
Eric
To what I was trying to say earlier, if you look at brand building, strictly storytelling, then yes, there has been, you know, even just past few months, every conference I attended, every conversation I had, people were still having this conversation or struggle between putting money in HN , which is short term, which is important, especially in this economy, versus, you know, staying on top of people's mind and mindshare.

00:04:02:17 - 00:04:33:13
Eric
However, if you look at brand building as a combination of storytelling, which is what you're saying to people and how you show up, and then the experience that your products and services are delivering to people and the functional, emotional and high values that you're delivering. Plus how you do, how you're actually behaving as a company, which, you know, we call it the business actions.

00:04:33:15 - 00:04:59:16
Eric
Then all of a sudden a lot of these things are very much measurable, especially, you know, for instance, your customer feedback as a result of the product or service you deliver, the piece of content and the relevance, you know, that as a result of your leadership. And your business action as a result, you know, and the feedback that all your stakeholders are giving you. All these are constantly being measured.

00:04:59:21 - 00:05:14:10
Eric
So it doesn't matter whether you are an SMB or whether you're a multinational company, you know, that formula applies. And if people start thinking about brand building in that context, then we start changing the conversation.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:43:12
Mary-Jane
And I think the other aspect is to understand that the landscape is dynamic and changing. And in fact, we have to continually be adapting in terms of our demand generation and brand building activities. And so, for instance, I mean, just in the last little while, we've seen the introduction of AI. So a whole new set of tools that we need to figure out how we employ these tools to be better marketers.

00:05:43:14 - 00:05:51:07
Mary-Jane
Also, with regards to the economy, you know, we, depending on your industry, we could be entering a phase of low growth

00:05:51:07 - 00:05:51:23
Mary-Jane
Or even no growth.

00:05:51:23 - 00:06:05:11
Mary-Jane
So the landscape is shifting. So to be able to maintain our competitiveness, we really need to be doing a better job of putting the human into the equation in the marketing that we do.

00:06:05:13 - 00:06:34:19
Eric
That's so important, Mary-Jane. And, you know, if you also think about the context of B2B marketing in general, the timeline often, that sales cycle, that timeline is sometimes much longer than what, you know, people experience in the B2C world. So all of a sudden, your customer journey is quite lengthy. You know, sometimes it could be up to, you know, 18 months or longer depends on depends on your category and depends on what you're trying to promote,

00:06:34:19 - 00:07:12:01
Eric
right? So what Mary-Jane just said in terms of that human aspect and the stakeholders, what they are encountering during, let's just say that 18 months, the external environment changes all the time. Their concerns and their response to what is happening in the environment they're operating in changes all the time. So we need to be nimble about, you know, how we use a blend of the storytelling, the experience, the demand gen to be, you know, on top, to stay top of mind and consistently being relevant to these stakeholders.

00:07:12:03 - 00:07:36:13
Mary-Jane
Going a little bit deeper with that, like one of the challenges with B2B, there isn't a single decision maker. You've got sometimes it's a committee. You've got a number of different people that are going to be involved in making a decision, and they're all coming at the opportunity, your proposition, your product or service from a different lens, from a different standpoint.

00:07:36:13 - 00:08:07:06
Mary-Jane
They have different concerns, and they have different needs. And I mean, conceptually, we understand when we're building out these lead generation finals, but today it's not even a funnel, but where we really need to be better and and take the time to be more competitive is understanding the emotional element. Understand the underpinning needs, the human, the human that's behind that screen, that's evaluating your product.

00:08:07:06 - 00:08:33:14
Mary-Jane
And that will allow us to solve the problem of low conversions that a lot of people, a lot of businesses are experiencing, low conversions from their, demand generation activity. And one of the levers to access better performance out of that is taking the time to really get to know each one of those decision makers, each one of those stakeholders in a really human, personal way.

00:08:33:16 - 00:09:06:16
Eric
I have a real life example I can share that in a really reflects what Mary-Jane was saying. We have worked with a global predictive analytics company for a long time. And predictive analytics, you know, is something that's really conceptual. And in this case, this particular client works a lot with financial institutions. And as Mary-Jane mentioned, you know, the dawn of AI, not dawn, but the evolution of predictive analytics, all of a sudden, it's not just a conversation between data scientists.

00:09:06:18 - 00:09:54:01
Eric
It's becomes a conversation between risk managers, data scientists, marketing, legal, etc., etc. because they all bring different concerns to the table and every decision made for choosing this technology, it's definitely this committee at at the core, and they all bring different aspects. So when we were talking to this client with a guiding, this client, you know, all of a sudden we're looking at the B to C to B model, meaning okay, at the end, your financial institution is making your client, the financial institution is making decisions based on your technology and powered by your technology that would impact their retail clients, their retail customers.

00:09:54:03 - 00:10:31:10
Eric
You know, it could be someone who's seeking a loan. It could be someone who is managing debt, whatever that might be. And you can imagine, you know, the rich conversations in terms of targeting, legal, targeting risk managers, targeting IT, targeting marketing, all of these become, you know, part of the storytelling, part of experience. And when an expert like Mary-Jane comes, you know, and talk about lead gen she is targeting these same audience like I am but with different tools and different techniques.

00:10:31:12 - 00:10:51:19
Eric
And still, you know, we are together joining hands building, you know, creating this optimum environment so that by the time Mary-Jane does her targeting, these people would be receptive to whatever information and propositions that this demand gen journey is, is trying to achieve.

00:10:51:21 - 00:11:20:18
Alison
So you've both talked a lot about how it's not a quick decision. It's not an individual decision. There are a lot of decision makers with very different backgrounds required to ultimately make the sale. There's also a lot of influence around it. And then one of the other things that you've both touched on is the human element. And certainly we as a profession have talked a lot about B2B and B2C, and the reality that you're both highlighting is, it's all human to human, and that's such an important part of doing this well.

00:11:20:19 - 00:11:30:22
Alison
So why do you think B2B brands often struggle to determine what the right mix between brand building and digital marketing investments are?

00:11:31:00 - 00:11:55:04
Mary-Jane
So one of the challenges is that, like it's not clear that brand building delivers an ROI in the short term or even in near-term, right? And for B2B companies, and we work a lot with like small to medium-sized companies, they just have not understood the value of investing in brand building.

00:11:55:06 - 00:12:22:12
Mary-Jane
They've got limited budgets and they're very skewed towards where shorter term priorities lead generation. In fact, a lot of them would consider brand building is kind of unnecessarily fluff, you know, not worth spending money on as like a smaller business. And part of the challenge is that, like the B2B marketing lens is worn by people who've never worked in advertising or in marketing outside of their industry.

00:12:22:14 - 00:12:53:10
Mary-Jane
So they have neither the training or the education to be able to have access to kind of the fundamentals of brand building. They don't speak the language. But then additionally, the B2B value proposition has always focused on, you know, rational factors, rational justifications, the idea that decision makers would not be influenced by emotion, that it has to be a purely rational argument,

00:12:53:12 - 00:13:18:20
Mary-Jane
ou know, for the for the product or service. And in fact, research is showing that that is not true. We know it's not true for B2C and it's not true for B2B either. In fact, there was some research that was done by Wunderman Thompson, and they showed that emotional factors are a are as much a factor in decision making for B2B as too B2C.

00:13:18:21 - 00:13:50:03
Mary-Jane
And in fact, the perception of your brand drives 93% of your market share, right? And in the buying decisions, when they took a look at the factors, two thirds of the decisions were hinged on an emotional connection and only one third, by a rational connection? So everywhere we're seeing mounting evidence that brand building is an inspiring emotion, is much more effective than simply delivering

00:13:50:03 - 00:13:52:19
Mary-Jane
rational benefits alone.

00:13:52:21 - 00:14:16:07
Eric
Mary-Jane, I couldn't have said it better. And I also want to add, you know, build on what you just said, I heartedly, wholeheartedly agree, you know, with with that perspective. And I think what you just shared applies also to larger companies. And there's an other aspect that we haven't touched on, and that is sometimes the business strategy, the brand strategy and the structure of the company don't align.

00:14:16:09 - 00:14:37:12
Eric
What I mean by that is we have, you know, the good fortune, you know, this year in the B2B Council to interact with the creative counsel within CMA. And so, you know, one of the team members is from Telus and she is head of brand. And she so you can tell Telus understands brand, invests in brand, has someone that owns it.

00:14:37:13 - 00:15:04:20
Eric
So that's that's a very clear alignment versus some of the clients that I've worked with. One one client may put brand under marketing. Another client may put brand under communications. And sometimes you know it's quote unquote shared responsibilities. And so that is what I mean by the structure and the strategy alignment. You know, if that's not in place, then very often, you know, different teams will look at each other.

00:15:04:21 - 00:15:33:00
Eric
Who's owning brand? But the truth is, you know, if we accept the concept of storytelling, product, service, experience and business actions are all part of ingredients. It's part of the formula for building brand. Then, yes, you know, it is a shared responsibility. It needs to be clearly defined and you need a leader to drive all that to make sure every aspect of this is consistent.

00:15:33:02 - 00:15:39:01
Eric
So that is something I don't see on a regular basis. When it happens is magical.

00:15:39:03 - 00:16:00:20
Alison
It's so great to have that actual research quantifying the important role that emotions play in B2B. Marketing decisions and business decisions as well. So now I'd love to hear from both of you, how can B2B marketers reimagine the traditional marketing funnel to better align with today's customer journey?

00:16:00:22 - 00:16:21:22
Eric
Sure. I think in terms of, you know, Mary-Jane already mentioned the traditional idea of funnel is very linear. And I just came back from some training programs, and one of my colleagues just said, well, the funnel is now become a pancake. Everything is squashed. And, you know, all the touchpoints are, you know, happening at the same time.

00:16:21:23 - 00:16:55:21
Eric
And so if you're looking at the marketing funnel in the traditional sense, you're not going to be, you know, staying relevant, you know, at all moments in time. And also in terms of reimagining the funnel, it's very much in concert with what is happening to your industry. So I'll give you an example, just by way of observation. If you look at the current, you know, leading Gen AI plays, you have open AI that, you know, obviously as represented by ChatGPT, you have Gemini.

00:16:55:21 - 00:17:18:12
Eric
You know, that is you know, Google's, you know, value proposition. And then you have Anthropic and risk solutions, and Claude. Those are just three examples, three well-known examples. And their environment when it comes to, you know, their marketing funnel, their biggest number one issue is trust. And so you can't just say, oh, do it. Address trust at the beginning or at the later end of the journey.

00:17:18:12 - 00:17:43:15
Eric
It's throughout that journey and their brand building, you know, they're not looking at, oh, how many promotional videos I should do. How many you know content pieces I should do. One of you know, people would not associate that immediately, but one of their brand building key components is the demonstration of the governance. And normally people go how was governance navigating the brand world.

00:17:43:17 - 00:18:09:09
Eric
But in this scenario it very much is. And they are overtly talking about how their governance and their governing bodies can help build trust. You know, with the enterprise customers, they're trying to attract, not just, you know, the general public users, because if they're talking to banks, if they're talking to hospitals, if they're talking to public sector, they actually need, you know, to demonstrate that trust.

00:18:09:14 - 00:18:38:06
Eric
And not to mention, you know, trying to balance between being regulated and staying in front of regulators to demonstrate that, no , we got this, we are doing this, and we're moving at a speed much faster than any government bodies can. So that's just another example of showing how in the fast paced, I'm using this extreme example, because extreme examples often can demonstrate why the traditional model, you know, needs to be reimagined.

00:18:38:07 - 00:19:04:16
Eric
And so if you're going to be a new entrant, you know, a quote unquote SMB or startup trying to, you know, seek funding, trying to get heard in the shadow of ChatGPT, Gemini and Cloud. What are you going to do? You know that that whole traditional funnel just doesn't seem to apply anymore. So that's just, you know, one example of how I see things are evolving at warp speed.

00:19:04:18 - 00:19:29:06
Mary-Jane
I'd like to add to what Eric just said, and I'm going to shift a little bit. So taking what he said, the other point that I really want to come back to is this idea that the funnel is no longer a funnel, it's flattened. And for B2B, it's so instinctive for them to want to move towards a close.

00:19:29:11 - 00:20:20:20
Mary-Jane
Like every touchpoint is moving towards a close. And that's no longer relevant today to be effective, and re-looking at this buyer journey. Right? It's way less selling and way more relating. Right? Rather than building towards a close at each time, at each touchpoint, rather thinking in terms of a service role, in the service of helping that user on your website get what they need at that step, right, rather than moving towards the close, asking permission in terms of the conversation, so that the person at the other end, that buyer feels heard and they feel that they got what they needed out of the react, out of the interaction.

00:20:20:22 - 00:20:30:14
Mary-Jane
And that is a really different mindset. And what you typically find built into these demand generation initiatives.

00:20:30:16 - 00:20:56:02
Eric
Yeah. And if I can just add one more thing and absolutely agree, Mary-Jane, and I just don't want our, our audience to think, oh, brand building is this giant investment. And iajust giant endeavour. It's giant in the sense of you absolutely need to take the time to think about it and, you know, build on what Mary-Jane is saying, you know, how do you change the mindset from, you know, funnel to pancake?

00:20:56:08 - 00:21:19:16
Eric
How do you change the mindset of what is valuable? How do you invest in experience as much of the storytelling as much as your action, and I'm using the big example, but very cost effective example. And also, by the way, that doesn't mean the traditional tactics and traditional approach, you know, just go out of the window. So it's it's just a matter of complementing each other.

00:21:19:18 - 00:21:51:09
Eric
So in the course of our last season, you know, with the B2B Council, some colleagues brought to our attention, you know, the power of TikTok and how IBM, of all companies, are using it. And we just thought, oh, we never imagined that platform would be something that IBM would consider, or be beneficial. And when you actually follow the channel, when you look at the content they put out, it is quite  indicative of what they're trying to do.

00:21:51:11 - 00:22:11:16
Eric
As you can imagine, TikTok videos are not big production. In fact, they shouldn't be, right? They're a bit more scrappy, you know, a bit more authentic, a bit more authentic, a bit more in the moment. So I'll give you two examples of what they did and which is quite interesting. One is the most traditional one in that they were at South by Southwest.

00:22:11:18 - 00:22:35:06
Eric
So clearly they want to associate the brand with creativity and with, you know, future thinking. They use real people on the floor, IBM, as they call them. You know, in this case a prime market manager. And just do a TikTok video and you say, okay, well, that you know, what's what's so special about it. What's so special about it is how they show up.

00:22:35:10 - 00:23:03:17
Eric
You know, they're using a creator as the interviewer and they're using the product marketing manager as a speaker, and they're using language that absolutely anyone can relate to. And that speaks volume to what Mary-Jane was saying. The human side. You know, the the IBMer was saying, hey, I'm a mom, I'm a working mom. And if AI could just sort of all of my household management duties, that would be my dream.

00:23:03:19 - 00:23:34:15
Eric
And so all of a sudden it's very relatable. And so that's one example. The second example is they use deliberately TikTok humour, you know, really quote unquote rough and ready animation. But it's not because they can't afford, you know, big beautiful production. This is deliberate. You can tell. And it's a short video, TikTok humor, so often you can tell, oh, this is driving to a very specific audience and that would resonate with that specific audience.

00:23:34:16 - 00:24:03:03
Eric
And the third, going back to AI, is they are using these little clips, you know, to explain AI to people and just keep reiterating, keep it simple. So I can only, you know, I'm an outsider. I don't run that program, but I can only imagine a) they're trying to reach, you know, at a younger generation workforce. And in, in this case it's so important that to touch to start, you know, grooming and be relevant to the next generation workforce.

00:24:03:05 - 00:24:30:09
Eric
Extending their investment in a conference, in this case South by Southwest to a much larger audience and get more impact out of it and them making themselves just shake out the, you know, big blue, kind of, brand perception and, and just and just be humorous, just just be TikTok-ready. So all of these things contribute to, to me as a user, as a viewers experience of the brand.

00:24:30:11 - 00:24:49:00
Alison
Those are great examples, Eric. And I really like how it's a great demonstration that doesn't have to be big budget to build your brand. They have absolutely focused on being very relevant and added a very human element to what they're doing. So thank you for bringing to life a lot of what we've talked about today with those very powerful examples.

00:24:49:02 - 00:24:56:02
Alison
So what advice do you have for B2B marketers who are really looking to elevate their craft and seize missed opportunities? 

00:24:56:03 - 00:25:09:14
Mary-Jane
So I would say, I would say, you know, if you're a younger person early in your career, you know, you're already on a path where you've selected, you know, what you feel is going to be your subject matter expertise, right, your skill set.

00:25:09:19 - 00:25:53:15
Mary-Jane
And so you really need to understand that talent and brains are a dime a dozen. So for you to really advance, you need to to invest in making yourself the best that you can be in that area. But I think the other thing, and this is recognizing that we live in such a dynamic and changing world, is that really maintaining a broad curiosity in life and be willing to invest in broadening your knowledge across a lot of different areas beyond the the skill set that you're becoming an expert in, because it's that broader perspective that will bring to you the opportunities yourself to have creative insights.

00:25:53:17 - 00:26:14:15
Eric
Yeah, Mary-Jane, what you just said reminds me of, a very good visual. One of my SEO clients, shared with me a long time ago. He calls it the T shape. So you have to be as broad as you need to be in the environment that you're operating and as deep as you need to be in terms of your subject matter expertise.

00:26:14:21 - 00:26:47:08
Eric
And I think in today's world, like you said, many, many people start with being a subject matter expert, that that is a normal, career path. What is challenging now is how broad do we need to go? And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of signals in the B2B world, that creativity is actually much more valued and much more embraced, as reflected by, say, you know, a lot of the national and international awards, including, you know, our very own CMA Awards. And why?

00:26:47:09 - 00:27:25:09
Eric
Because there's a lot to be learned from other disciplines. I'll give one final example, and that's an example actually Mary-Jane and I used it in our blog for the CMA, and that is, a campaign launched by Roland, which is an enterprise printing technology company, and it's a UK campaign. Now, traditionally, and I have worked with printing companies, traditionally, when you have a printing technology, you go to trade shows, you have white papers, you go knock on doors and tell people, you know how amazing, you know, this feed and feeds and whatever you can do with this technology. None of that is going to go away,

00:27:25:09 - 00:27:58:02
Eric 
you still need to do all those things. But what they have done is they literally borrowed a song sheet from traditional B2C marketing. They are trying to demonstrate the superiority of that printing technology by addressing the, what they call 50 Shades of Ginger. Looking at how we can demonstrate the gradient of this technology through storytelling from a consumer lens.

00:27:58:04 - 00:28:28:12
Eric
So they engaged influencers to talk about how redheads growing up, you know, have a lot of challenges, you know, being accepted because they are minority from from that perspective. And, but they have fun conversations, right? You know, oh, yeah. You know, I, I don't know if I was a ginger or a redhead, or what I call myself? And then they, they have, you know, influencers going on television talking about this technology because they produce this book of 50 Shades of Ginger.

00:28:28:14 - 00:28:55:14
Eric
And from there they create an event and bringing all the, you know, people with ginger coloured hair, hair together to an event and talk about their shades and talk about, oh, how I can replicate that shade and that becomes this campaign on broadcast on, you know, morning television, in mainstream newspapers, which no print technology company traditionally would dream of getting that kind of attention.

00:28:55:20 - 00:29:09:20
Eric
Now, of course, that example is so good that it won a Drum award in the UK last year. And but that is a really good example to show how both B2B and B2C can learn from each other.

00:29:09:22 - 00:29:30:23
Alison
That is such a fun example. I have a couple of gingers in my life and I'll definitely be sharing that story with them. So you both have very impressive and enviable careers. So we'll step away from the B2B conversation now, and I'd love to end by having you each share a piece of advice for our listeners. I know that they would really enjoy being able to learn from each of you.

00:29:31:01 - 00:29:57:18
Mary-Jane
A single piece of advice I would say. I mean, we all wear blinders, right? It what? It's what allows us to be really laser-focused. But of course, in being laser- focused, we miss out on what is in the periphery, in other words, the blinders that we wear. So I'd invite each of us to really challenge yourself, to be curious about what's on the other side of the blinders that you're wearing.

00:29:57:20 - 00:30:30:00
Eric
Mine is very similar to Mary-Jane, you know, Mary-Jane, you used the word curiosity, which I use for myself and my team a lot. And for me, it doesn't matter where you are at in your career journey, curiosity and constant learning is really something that I value. And I encourage, my team and whoever works with me, you know, to to embrace, because, you know, to Mary -ane's point, we all have blinders and the environment changes so quickly.

00:30:30:05 - 00:30:43:12
Eric
The last thing we want is to have a Kodak experience. So we we sometimes we just don't know what's coming. And you know, we really just need to pay attention to what is evolving.

00:30:43:14 - 00:31:03:13
Alison
And that is great advice. Our profession is going through absolutely tectonic shift. So anyone that is going to continue to thrive absolutely has to be open to change. Embrace that. And curiosity is an absolutely mission critical skill. So great advice and thank you to the two of you. I also want to thank you for a really great and insightful conversation.

00:31:03:13 - 00:31:11:08
Alison
I've learned a lot, and I know our listeners have as well, and I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedules to join us today.

00:31:11:10 - 00:31:12:04
Mary-Jane
Our pleasure.

00:31:12:09 - 00:31:13:09
Eric
Thank you so much.

00:31:13:11 - 00:31:14:12
Mary-Jane
Thank you Alison.

00:31:14:15 - 00:31:17:23
Eric
It's been great fun and great honour to to have this discussion with you.

00:31:18:04 - 00:31:23:19
Alison
Thank you.

00:31:23:21 - 00:31:36:11
Presenter
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