EP29 - Building Brand Love for Lasting Consumer Connections with Justin Haberman

Is brand love measurable magic or marketing myth? In this episode of CMA Connect, the CEO of the CMA, Alison Simpson and Elemental's VP of Client Services, Justin Haberman, dissect the power of emotional connections in business. Discover why brand love matters, how to quantify it, and the touch points for fostering lasting consumer relationships.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:19:22
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. W  ith your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:00 - 00:00:42:18
Alison
Today's episode is all about brand love and building deep emotional connections between brands and the consumers in a very fast paced, results driven marketing landscape. And joining me today is Justin Haberman, who is the Vice President of Client Services at Elemental. He's also a member of our CMA Brand Council. Justin has a real passion for creating these lasting bonds between brands and their customers.

00:00:42:20 - 00:01:03:12
Alison
Justin's also worked on both the brand and the agency side of the marketing. We share that in common, and he's run and managed PnLs for leading brands in highly competitive sectors. So he really understands the importance of brands delivering ROI as well. He also brings a wealth of knowledge and insights to the table. So I'm really looking forward to diving into this very important topic with him.

00:01:03:18 - 00:01:23:12 
Alison
And in the episode, we're going to dive into the concept of brand love. We're going to explore why it matters more than ever in today's marketing landscape and its role in building business. Justin will also share his thoughts on the difference between brand love and brand loyalty, and how marketers can effectively measure and quantify the impact of brand love on their business.

00:01:23:13 - 00:01:25:20
Alison
Welcome, Justin. It's great to have you with us today.
00:01:25:22 - 00:01:30:06
Justin
Thank you. What a great introduction. I am very excited to talk brand love today.

00:01:30:08 - 00:01:38:02
Alison
Well, let's dive right in. I want to start by having you define brand love, and how in your mind it differs from brand loyalty.

00:01:38:04 - 00:01:57:15
Justin
So yeah, I think it's a good question because at one point in time, you know, loyalty and love were one and the same. And they both measured brand loyalty. But nowadays, as we've, you know, started innovating the way we can measure loyalty, there's been a divide where loyalty can be more of a purchase loyalty or behavioural loyalty.

00:01:57:15 - 00:02:07:00
Justin
And those are things that we can easily measure, where brand love is more of an attitudinal loyalty, and it's a deeper emotional connection to one's brand.

00:02:07:01 - 00:02:36:03
Alison
I think that's a such a great observation, when I also think about loyalty versus brand love. There are brands like Ferrari that many people have great affection for, and brand love for doesn't necessarily translate to purchase affinity. And then there are other brands where loyalty can be incentives through different loyalty programs. So that's a different kind of loyalty that probably comes with affection, but doesn't necessarily have to come with brand love.

00:02:36:05 - 00:03:05:08
Justin
Well, exactly. And, you know, there are things like you mentioned that can be incentivized. And some of those things can actually take us down the wrong path, because, you know, one may be loyal to a brand because of a promotion or convenience or even proximity, but those aren't necessarily true measurements of brand love or brand loyalty. You know, a good example that I like to give is an analogy of how I choose my barber.

00:03:05:13 - 00:03:25:05
Justin
Right? So I've been going to the same barber for the last year, and it's not necessarily because I'm extremely loyal to him. You know, if he were to move a city away, I wouldn't follow him. I go to this barber time and time again because it's easy for me. It's right down the street. And, you know, for something like a haircut, I don't want it to take up too much in my day.

00:03:25:06 - 00:03:42:01
Justin
So if you looked at the metrics that are available, engagement or purchase, you're going to see, wow, Justin's really loyal to his barber, but it, on the other end of it I'm really not. And so I think there is a false measurement that a lot of marketers lean on, which can get us into trouble.

00:03:42:03 - 00:04:00:06
Alison
I love your barber example because based on your description, which I think is a very astute one, I actually do have brand love for my stylist because I moved and now it's a,    instead of being a ten minute commute, it's a 40 minute commute. Yet they still have my business. So it's such a great example of the difference between loyalty and brand love, for sure.

00:04:00:07 - 00:04:13:12
Alison
So why do you believe that focusing on building brand love and emotional connections with consumers is the greatest opportunity for marketers, especially when we're in a world very much focused on short term results and sales numbers?

00:04:13:14 - 00:04:34:06
Justin
Right. Yeah, and it's a discussion that I have quite a bit. I mean, it's really easy when you need to answer to shareholders or managing your PnL. It's really easy to look to the short term results. You know, how do I hit my numbers this quarter? Unfortunately, you know, when you start taking that approach, it's this never-ending race to chase sales.

00:04:34:06 - 00:04:56:13
Justin
And it can be very reactionary. And so the value that comes from building a brand or focusing on brand love is it's a little bit of like a cheat code or a shortcut for driving future sales. And I really encourage marketers to take that approach and be a little bit more proactive in how they invest in that approach.

00:04:56:14 - 00:05:17:05
Justin
So, you know, another analogy or example I'll give is, you know, why do we put away money for retirement? It's really easy to spend money on the things we need or want right now, but we invest in a retirement fund to make our lives easier in the future. And that is kind of how I would encourage a lot of marketers to look at brand building efforts.

00:05:17:06 - 00:05:41:18
Justin
It's making our future lives easier, more profitable. It's going to be a lot easier to obtain new clients or new customers and retain new clients and customers. So there's a lot of value that comes from that. And on top of that, I think a lot of people these days, especially the younger generation, they really want to love a brand and they really want love to be returned back to them

00:05:41:18 - 00:05:45:15
Justin
if they're going to invest that time and effort into a brand.

00:05:45:17 - 00:06:18:22
Alison
So I've been in the CMO seat in very competitive sectors before, so I've felt the heat firsthand. I'm a big, big proponent and believer in the power of brand. I've also faced the pressure of quarterly monthly sales results and delivering results, so it's always helpful to have proven examples or any starts too, that our listeners can leverage with some of their maybe skeptical colleagues or with the executive suite to really help validate why investing in brand is so important.

00:06:18:23 - 00:06:24:00
Alison
If you have any cases or stats that you could share, that would be, I know our listeners would love to get their hands on it.

00:06:24:02 - 00:06:53:09
Justin
Yeah, of course. I mean, I've looked at a few different stats over the years. One that jumps out is close to 90% of consumers are prepared to love a brand, and they want that type of relationship with their brand. That's a huge number that speaks volumes to how we need to build and foster those types of relationships. You know, a lot of people are investing, like I mentioned before, time, money, etc. and they want to do it for brands that live up to their values, share the same beliefs.

00:06:53:11 - 00:07:16:08
Justin
So that's one that comes to mind. Another one is probably on the more you know, profitable side. When you invest in a brand, it's a lot easier to make more money. And you know, we see that with some numbers that I've come across in terms of, you know, it's a, it's seven times easier to sell to an existing customer than to try and sell to a new customer.

00:07:16:10 - 00:07:18:11
Justin
So those are just a couple that pop out.

00:07:18:12 - 00:07:28:15
Alison
So you've compared building brand love to building interpersonal relationships. And I think that's a very apt analogy. Can you elaborate a bit on the analogy and also share some of the different stages involved?

00:07:28:17 - 00:07:49:21
Justin
Yeah, I'm glad you called that out because, you know, when we talk brand building, it's one thing to get people on board with the value of it, but then it's another thing to try to explain how do you achieve it? There's a lot that goes into building brand love, and I think because of that, a lot of people are hesitant or scared to dive into it.

00:07:49:21 - 00:08:18:04
Justin
And so, like you mentioned, the the analogy to building interpersonal love is a good way to remind people how easy it can be. We're all experts at it already. It doesn't have to be this daunting task. We've all, you know, dated, we've all fallen in love with someone. Well, at least most people have. And so, you know, if you start looking into how that relationship evolves, you can translate that into some of the things you need to do as a brand.

00:08:18:06 - 00:08:41:07
Justin
Simon Sinek, marketing guru, author. He talks about how to grow love and I really liked his explanation of how to do that. He talked about how love doesn't happen overnight. It's not a moment in time, you know, you don't love your husband or wife or significant other because of one giant thing they did. It's a lot of little things that add up over time that people remember.

00:08:41:07 - 00:09:05:18
Justin
And that's what, you know, creates love in these relationships. So I really encourage a lot of brand marketers to look at their brand-building efforts in a similar way. You know, look at all the touch points and where you can build love over time and comparing it to how love grows, you know, from a personal standpoint. You start by dating someone before you get married.

00:09:06:00 - 00:09:32:02
Justin
And there's kind of three stages of love. There's the initial passion, lust phase. And this is where you're trying to, you know, create an attraction with someone. And from a brand perspective, this is where you want to get them excited about your brand. Promote trial. Get them to try it for the first time. And then you move to this intimacy stage where it's all about closeness and connectivity and building that relationship.

00:09:32:07 - 00:10:01:15
Justin
And from a brand perspective, you know, this is where you start looking at usage frequency, getting people to break routines, get them to adopt you in their everyday lives. And only once those two things have happened can you start moving to the decision or commitment phase. You know, from a personal standpoint, this is maybe the big marriage proposal, but from a brand perspective, this is when brand love really happens and when people are truly loyal to you or a product or a brand that you're promoting.

00:10:01:17 - 00:10:21:13
Alison
Building on the analogy, sadly, one in two marriages ends in divorce, and brands also can run the risk of their consumers divorcing them. So what can be done to help prevent divorce or losing that connection and that level of love from your audience and consumers, once you have it.

00:10:21:15 - 00:10:47:06
Justin
Right, it can come and go pretty quickly. And so I think to prevent any kind of divorce or disengagement, you need to remember that this is a never-ending job. Just because you won someone as a customer or just because you got married to them, it doesn't mean that the job is over. In my opinion, that's the moment where the job is just beginning, and that's where we need to focus more of our efforts, right?

00:10:47:06 - 00:11:06:22
Justin
You need to continually keep people guessing, coming out with new things, finding new ways to exchange ideas. All of that comes in really handy with keeping people connected and engaged. And I think that's why, like, social media has gained so much popularity, because it is a way to do exactly that.

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:14:02
Alison
So is brand love feasible for all products? And especially when I think about ones that are much more commoditized and mass?

00:11:14:04 - 00:11:49:05
Justin
I would say for sure. There's a reason why entire industries have been built on brand love. You know, I look at the streetwear industry and how brands like Supreme can sell a plain white t-shirt for 80, 100, multiple hundred dollars. It's because of the brand they've been able to build. You know, you also look at examples like No Frills, which is a value brand, private label brand that typically or traditionally has never had a huge emotional connection with it.

00:11:49:06 - 00:12:10:17
Justin
They've been able to do a great job. And kudos to the marketers on on that team for building a relationship with their audience. You know, they were able to look at some universal truths that existed of how people looked at private label brands and kind of spin it on their head and, and take ownership of how people like to shop and, and how people can feel proud about finding a deal.

00:12:10:17 - 00:12:18:06
Justin
And, and that's just another example of, you know, I think every product, every service, can have a brand.

00:12:18:08 - 00:12:33:04
Alison
Those are great examples, Justin. So it's obviously important for marketing to demonstrate business impact. And that can also be more challenging for brand marketing. So what are your thoughts on measuring the ROI of brand-building efforts, and what metrics or tools would you recommend?

00:12:33:06 - 00:12:58:12
Justin
It's a very, very tough one, for sure, because everyone wants to find that return on investment, and with something like brand-building, it can be more difficult, but there's places to look right. Things like attitudinal surveys are a great way to to measure it. Things like reputation quotients that go into really understanding, like the emotional quality of an experience and not just surface level things.

00:12:58:12 - 00:13:25:07
Justin
So I urge people not to get caught up in some other measurements, like engagement or retention, because like we mentioned before, it can be a little misleading. But to elaborate on on this, I also think, there's two other points that I want to mention. One is, I think it really comes down to who you're speaking to. You know, we as marketers, we're also salespeople, and we need to figure out how to talk about things in a way that resonates with our audience.

00:13:25:07 - 00:13:47:15
Justin
And so if you're talking to a CFO, your answer may be a little different than if you're talking to, you know, a marketing director. I'm just picking positions, but you really need to talk about things in a way that is going to matter to the people you're talking to. So an example of that would be if I was talking to a CFO, I was talking to someone who really cared about the numbers.

00:13:47:17 - 00:14:10:04
Justin
I would start trying to connect the dots and what my brand building efforts could do. So, you know, if I can drive future demand and I can measure that through unaided awareness, I maybe can then link it to, well, if people have a higher unaided awareness, what's their cost per acquisition? And does that start going down because they're now further down the funnel?

00:14:10:04 - 00:14:35:11
Justin
And if their cost per acquisition goes down, does that mean that they have a higher consumer lifetime value? I'm just throwing out measurements right now, but looking at different metrics along a full path can be a way to answer that for someone who's very number-driven. Whereas on the flip side, the other way to look at it is to spin it on its head and kind of remind people of why they make certain purchases.

00:14:35:13 - 00:14:57:01
Justin
You know, why have you made certain decisions? Why have you chosen one product or one brand over another? And once you start relating it back to people's personal experiences there, there is a light bulb switch moment where they realize, well, actually, brands do have an effort. And even though I may not be able to measure the way I want to measure it, it still matters.

00:14:57:03 - 00:15:26:12
Alison
There is skepticism around why brands important, and it's it's still too often thought of as, if you have money left over invest in brand, which is completely backwards thinking. But when you're working on monthly sales reports, when you're reporting to a board on a quarterly basis, showing quarterly results becomes your Kryptonite in many ways. So and if you layer on top of that, a tough economy, the brand budget can be one of the first things that gets cut.

00:15:26:14 - 00:15:39:19
Alison
So the power in your example with Supreme and No Frills was given to very easy to understand examples of how they have defended their business and profited by investing in brand.

00:15:39:21 - 00:16:05:06
Justin
I mean, a couple other brands that come to mind, with one that jumps out is something like Heinz and their their efforts in building brand and the amount of money they put behind their brand-building efforts. You know, I think of the one campaign that was Draw Ketchup. I forget if that's the exact title of the campaign, but when, you know, they went to market and asked people to draw ketchup, the first thing people drew was a Heinz bottle.

00:16:05:08 - 00:16:33:02
Justin
And that just shows the power of brand-building and how it can help elicit a deep-rooted connection with people that doesn't leave their mind. And it keeps the brand top of mind. And when the brand's top of mind, they walk into a store and the first thing they see is something that's recognizable, like a Heinz ketchup bottle, they're going to go grab that off shelf versus having to put in the time to do more research to educate themselves on the qualities of different ketchup bottles.

00:16:33:04 - 00:16:41:08
Justin
Like I mentioned before, it's just, it's a shortcut moment that makes selling much, much easier and much cheaper.

00:16:41:10 - 00:16:58:15
Alison
That's a great example. And the other Heinz campaign that I love, that was really built on a universal truth, is that behind the back-of-the-house, in a restaurant. You see people with Heinz bottles filling it with generic ketchup. And I waitressed my way through school to pay my own way. And we actually did that.

00:16:58:20 - 00:17:15:07
Alison
And then you would take out to the table, and there were customers that absolutely knew when they turned over that Heinz bottle, if the ketchup was coming out too fast, it wasn't the real thing. And they called us on it. So that's such a powerful example of why brands are important and how it does ultimately drive strong business results as well.

00:17:15:07 - 00:17:17:22
Alison
And that's also a great example of brand love.

00:17:18:00 - 00:17:44:06
Justin
Exactly. I mean, another example that comes to mind is the Pepsi versus Coke battle. And it's been going on for years and years and years. But there are some very strong, loyal Coca-Cola drinkers that wouldn't be caught dead drinking a Pepsi, but all of a sudden Pepsi launches the Pepsi Taste Challenge and they do a blind tasting and they get people to decide what is actually their preferred flavour of cola.

00:17:44:08 - 00:17:59:19
Justin
And, you know, they ended up going with Pepsi. And that's an example that shows that, you know, a loyal customer can be so strong-minded, so stuck in their way that they're not willing to try anything else. And sometimes we need to force them that there may be better options out there.

00:17:59:21 - 00:18:17:17
Alison
And my ultimate test for the Pepsi and Coke challenge is if you're out for dinner with friends and someone asks for a Coke and they say, sorry, we only have Pepsi. How often do they say, well, that's all right. And I have friends who say, no thanks and will completely change to another drink, whereas lots of friends will just say, okay, that's all right.

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:21:14
Justin
Right. Exactly what, what kind of cola drink are you?

00:18:21:16 - 00:18:24:23
Alison
I'm actually not a pop drinker. 

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:31:06
Justin
Well, I'm one of those shifting loyals where I will go wherever the availability exists.

00:18:31:08 - 00:18:39:08
Alison
But, yeah, when you meet people that are truly in love with either Coke or Pepsi, it's pretty, as marketers, it's pretty motivating to see, too.

00:18:39:10 - 00:19:07:02
Justin
Well, and that's the golden ticket, right? As a marketer, that's the the end game. That's what we're trying to achieve, is get someone to become so loyal with our brand that they're willing to, you know, abandon everything else for the brand. And, you know, when that happens and we can create that sense of loyalty. We're not only closing a sale, but we're also creating an army of ambassadors or advocates of a brand that will do a lot of our heavy lifting for us.

00:19:07:04 - 00:19:23:10
Justin
So we as marketers have an easier job because all these loyals that exist out there are selling the brand, promoting the brand, pushing it to their friends and family at zero cost to us. And that, to me is like the epitome of marketing.

00:19:23:12 - 00:19:31:18
Alison
Absolutely. And no matter how good we are as marketers, we will never have the same credibility as a friend recommending something.

00:19:31:19 - 00:19:50:23
Justin
Correct. Yeah. It's, it's funny. And that's where I think a lot of brands who've seen success on a lot of social channels like Instagram or TikTok, they've done really well where they don't try and speak to people. They try and engage people in a natural, authentic community dialog.

00:19:51:01 - 00:20:09:23
Alison
So I want to switch gears a little bit. You've got a great career, tremendous experience. So I'd love to wrap up our session today by having you share one piece of advice for our listeners that are looking to continue to evolve their careers and flourish the same way that you have.

00:20:10:01 - 00:20:42:06
Justin
One piece of advice... it would probably be the fact that we need to remember that we're communicating to humans. You know, a lot of this discussion today has been around building an emotional connection. And we as humans want that. We crave that. And we're not always rational people. We are sometimes irrational. And I think sometimes we can forget that because as marketers, we want to measure things and we talk about users or visitors, and it takes us away from the human element.

00:20:42:07 - 00:20:55:02
Justin
And I think once we remember that we're talking to humans and we ourselves as humans and we go through life and we make decisions the way we do, it allows us to make decisions that are better for our customers, our consumers.

00:20:55:04 - 00:21:11:15
Alison
There's actually some great research that validates what you're talking about from an emotional versus rational decision-making. Most human beings primarily decide based on emotion and then justify the decision through rational reasons. So it's, it's great advice on a bunch of fronts.

00:21:11:17 - 00:21:26:13
Justin
It really is important to continue to have this on our forefront as we look to plan all our marketing initiatives, you know, not forgetting how the long term can aid short term results and vice versa. It's a really, really important topic.

00:21:26:15 - 00:21:37:17
Alison
I absolutely agree, you can't draw down on brand equity if you haven't built it in the first place. So Justin, I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation today. I really appreciate you sharing your love of brand love and your experiences with us today.

00:21:37:19 - 00:21:43:06
Justin
Thank you. Yeah, really appreciate the chat.

00:21:43:08 - 00:21:55:22
Presenter
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