EP33 - Marketing's Lifetime Achievement with Mary DePaoli

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, sits down with Mary DePaoli, Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at RBC and recipient of the 2024 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award. Mary shares her unconventional career journey, from journalism to marketing leadership. She discusses the value of P&L experience in marketing, the importance of seeking diverse opinions, and the power of mentorship. Mary offers insights on building a personal board of directors, taking calculated risks, and the joy of developing future leaders.

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:20:19
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:20:21 - 00:00:46:09
Alison
It is my absolute pleasure to welcome Mary DePaoli as my guest today. Mary is the Executive Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at RBC, where her strategic leadership and marketing expertise have dramatically elevated RBC's reputation. She's made it Canada's number one most valuable brand since 2019. This year, Mary received our CMA Lifetime Achievement Award and is a very, very deserving recipient.

00:00:46:11 - 00:01:14:06
Alison
Mary is the brains behind a number of RBC's marquee initiatives across sports, community, arts, and culture. The integration of brand strategy with sustainability and impact is core to her approach. As the chair of the foundation, Mary has deepened RBC's connection with communities and reinforced its commitment to social responsibility, solidifying RBC as a purpose-driven organization admired as much for its values as for its business acumen.

00:01:14:08 - 00:01:41:15
Alison
Her personal dedication to mentorship and fostering positive change in our culture and communities is evident through her roles on the boards of Women in Sports and Events, the Toronto International Film Festival, and Western University's fundraising committee. Mary's leadership, significant contributions, and the heart and humanity that she brings to everything she does make her such a deserving recipient of our 2024 CMA Lifetime Achievement Award.

00:01:41:17 - 00:02:04:20
Alison
She's also been recognized by Strategy magazine as Marketer of the Year and as one of Canada's Top 100 Most Powerful Women. Today, we'll explore Mary's unique career path, some of the lessons she's learned along the way, and her advice for marketers who aspire to make their own mark on the profession. Welcome,, Mary, I am so thrilled to have you joining us today, and congratulations once again on your well-deserved recognition.

00:02:04:22 - 00:02:08:22
Mary
Oh, thank you so much, Alison. It's really good to be here with you.

00:02:09:00 - 00:02:15:22
Alison
So I'm going to kick things off by having you share a little bit about your career path and what initially attracted you to marketing.

00:02:16:00 - 00:02:47:09
Mary
Well, my career path was fairly untraditional, I would say. I began my academic career, if you will, as an arts major. And then I got a master's degree in journalism. Found myself spending 17 years in the investment business with a focus on group retirement, group savings, institutional investments in the 90s and 2000s. And then, as I worked my way through my career, it was very dynamic. A very dynamic industry.

00:02:47:15 - 00:03:28:04
Mary
I really enjoyed having clients, working in a P&L, and having accountability for a business. But our CEO said one day, you know, I am thinking about creating a Chief Marketing Officer role for Sun Life Financial, and I think you'd be good at it. And it was a bit startling for me because I had never seen myself in anything other than a specific set of roles that related to what I was currently doing. But it really speaks to the value of having great mentors and great champions in your career, because they often see that your skills can be highly portable.

00:03:28:06 - 00:03:57:02
Mary
I thought about it for about a week. I took a leap of faith, largely because he was confident in the decision. I wasn't as confident, I'll be honest with you. I didn't know anything about marketing. It was a completely new territory for me. But ultimately, the more I learned and the more I surrounded myself with experts and incredible people that were so giving of their time and knowledge, I realized that this was not just another career for me. It was going to be a destination for me.

00:03:57:02 - 00:04:12:22
Mary
And that's how I found myself in marketing. It was really the belief and the understanding that skills can be quite portable, and having great mentors around you who are willing to take a bet on you.

00:04:13:00 - 00:04:32:18
Alison
It is amazing how other people can see more of our potential than we sometimes can see in ourselves. So I love that story. I also want to take you back to your early journalism days because, when we were chatting, you had shared what was, to me, a very fascinating story around your time in Washington. And it was such a great example of the initiative that you've brought to all aspects of your career. So I know our listeners would love to hear more about that experience, too.

00:04:41:20 - 00:05:13:18
Mary
Well, it was an amazing time. I was going to school, and as part of my academic study, I had the ability to work several internships. And my favourite one, and the one that I spent the most time at, was working at the CNN affiliate in Washington during the presidential election. I have never experienced a more interesting and vibrant and just, you know, unbelievable culture.

You know, I was 22 years old. I was living in Washington, I was learning, I was working, and one of my roles at CNN was to work on Sundays and to essentially just be a runner for Larry King and The Larry King Show. But it was very hard to get close to Larry King. I mean, he was such an incredible phenom and, you know, just a real pillar of journalism, especially at the time.

00:05:42:11 - 00:06:03:15
Mary
But I wanted so much to learn from him. I wanted to learn his interview strategies. I wanted to learn how he was able to sort of tap into his guests and bring out incredible stories that they were known for, in every realm, whether it was politics or entertainment. But it was very hard to get close to Larry.

So I realized one day that, every Sunday, Larry liked to order lemon chicken as part of an order that came into CNN. And so I became the runner for his lemon chicken. And I made a point every Sunday of getting his lemon chicken, bringing it to him, and just spending a minute or whatever he had, to ask him a question.

00:06:25:17 - 00:06:48:09
Mary
And as he got more and more comfortable with me, as every Sunday went by, and I would drop off his chicken, he would give me more time, and more advice until we were now joking with each other, especially around baseball. He was, you know, an incredible baseball fan. The Toronto Blue Jays were in the World Series, and so it was a very friendly sparring between whose country was better.

00:06:48:17 - 00:07:24:12
Mary
And ultimately, we made a bet, and if the Jays won, he agreed to wear a Canada pin on his tie during the next broadcast. And of course, we all know what happened. The Jays did win. He did fulfill his bet, and it was just an amazing friendship that we had.

And so, when I step back and think about that, one of the things I like to say to anyone I’m mentoring is you will find that knowledge and insight and access, and life lessons come from some of the most unusual places. But don’t be afraid to find ways to just put yourself into a situation.

Back in the day, we would say, you know, just walk by the photocopier machine if there was someone that had an office near it and you wanted to bump in and learn from them. Whatever the avenue is, get creative and find ways to just get exposure to the people that you're inspired by.

00:07:48:21 - 00:07:58:02
Mary
And I know for me, with that Larry King story, there were lessons I learned from him that three decades later, I’m still applying in my daily life.

00:07:58:04 - 00:08:20:08
Alison
I love that story. The power of lemon chicken. And to your point, like demonstrating that initiative and finding a way and what it can lead to. It also  sounds like a magical time with the Jays and everything else, but way to make the most of it. That’s clearly served you well throughout your career.

Now, you also highlighted having P&L accountability very early in your career and certainly before you became a marketer. So how has that shaped you as a marketer?

00:08:23:04 - 00:08:47:23
Mary
I would say it was one of the most fundamental building blocks, whether it was in this job or even in any other job that I foresaw myself in, having the ability to understand how a business works, how it makes money, how it interacts with clients, how it wins clients, how it loses clients, how you segment clients, and understand how to create value.

00:08:47:23 - 00:09:17:04
Mary
It doesn’t matter what segment, it doesn’t matter what customer base, it doesn’t matter where in the world. When you have worked in a business, it gives you a fundamental understanding of what you are trying to do as a business to appeal to an audience.

And I often bring all of those lessons learned when I was interacting with customers, or building products, or being fired by them, or being hired by them. It gives you an intuition as a marketer that is invaluable.

00:09:17:06 - 00:09:37:01
Mary
And so one of the things I say to so many marketers when they ask me, "What are some of the steps that I can take to become a stronger marketer in my career?" I will always tell them, find a way to work in a business, learn a business.

00:09:37:03 - 00:09:53:12
Mary
What you learn is so portable, both to any other business if you decide you wanted to stay in that stream, or as a marketer, because it gives you a fundamental understanding of why you are marketing, who you are marketing to, and why it matters.

00:09:53:14 - 00:10:21:18
Alison
I absolutely share that passion. It also gives you, beyond the insights of what it takes to run a business, also gives you great credibility because your colleagues across the business know that you've been in their shoes and really understand what's required to deliver a successful business.

We both know that marketing is absolutely crucial to building businesses. And to be able to talk on both sides of that conversation and have experience on both the P&L and the marketing side is absolutely a game changer.

00:10:21:20 - 00:10:39:11
Alison
Now, often, and certainly in my case, some of the hardest lessons I've learned have been through mistakes and learning them the hard way. And sometimes those are the most memorable. That's a lot of memory glue when you learn a lesson the hard way. So I'd love you to share a lesson or two that you've learned the hard way.

00:10:40:00 - 00:11:05:15
Mary
What a great question. I think you're so right, Alison. It's often through how you are tested that you grow. And I would say one of the most fundamental lessons I've learned, and I think it applies to so many times where I reflect back and think, "That was a bit of a miss" or "That was a huge miss" or "Could I have done something better or different?"

00:11:07:00 - 00:11:52:09
Mary
It all sort of points back to one area, and that is this: when I've gone into a situation and I didn't have enough perspective, it sort of leads you to a spot where you're working with less information and you're at less of an advantage.

And so, one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned coming out of a meeting, or coming out of an altercation, or coming out of something that just may not have ended well or has gone sideways, is I always ask myself, "Did I take the time upfront to really talk to enough people to get a well-rounded view of the situation?"

I find when I've done that and I've brought in different perspectives, perspectives from people that I may or may not agree with, I walk away thinking, "All right, I can see that problem or that issue from so many different dimensions," and the complexion of the issue or the complexion of the problem becomes much more solvable if you will.

00:12:16:09 - 00:12:42:04
Mary
But the times where I've walked away frustrated, or it's been a miss, or someone's been frustrated, or we're delayed, or whatever the case might be in the work, it's usually because I haven't actually thought widely enough or consulted enough people. And so that's really where mistakes are made, because in the end, you end up with something that is suboptimal because it doesn't reflect everyone's viewpoint.

00:12:42:06 - 00:13:03:06
Mary
And even when you're in a situation where you can only go forward with one view, at least if you have engaged everyone, you can still agree to disagree, but walk out of that room knowing that everybody was heard and had a chance to contribute. And that actually allows you to have a much smoother glide path with whatever it is you're doing.

00:13:03:06 - 00:13:34:21
Mary
So I think the biggest lessons that that I have learned have been take the time upfront, engage everyone that has a stake or even has a different opinion than yours, and come at it thoughtfully, whatever that might be. I find that you you end up with a much better outcome, a better engagement, and a better kind of culture around your team than if you're just sort of driving ahead without having as much diversity of opinion.

00:13:34:23 - 00:13:51:14
Alison
That's great advice. And one additional lesson I took out of that that you didn't overtly say, because it's so natural to who you are and how you work, when you came out of an altercation or mistake, the first thing you did was look at yourself and said, "What's my role in this? What should I have done differently?" Not everyone does that, so that's a huge lesson as well.

00:13:53:07 - 00:13:56:17
Mary
That self-reflection is is so important. Yeah.

00:13:56:19 - 00:14:02:10
Alison
And with the benefit of hindsight, is there anything that you would change about your career journey?

00:14:02:12 - 00:14:36:17
Mary
I think I've had an incredible journey. You know, my my origin story is one of very humble beginnings. And I, I didn't have high expectations of myself when I was younger. I knew I had this burning desire to learn and be curious, but as I look at the career that I've had, I've had the ability to work with so many people in so many sectors, doing many different things that have built up my skills.

00:14:36:19 - 00:15:03:09
Mary
I think looking back, there isn't anything that I would change per se, but the advice that I think I might have given my younger self would have been to have bet on myself a lot earlier, and to have had the confidence to make some of these moves a lot sooner in my career. I was more cautious. I always felt that I needed to be able to master a job, or at least be 99% there

00:15:03:09 - 00:15:32:12
Mary
before I took it. But I think going forward, I, and certainly my younger self, I think I would have given myself this advice. As long as you're about 70% comfortable, what's the worst that could happen? Go for it! And and so that would be what I would have changed, Alison, is I think I would have taken some of these bets and made some of these moves earlier in my career, and just had more confidence that it's going to be okay and not have, overanalyze or been so hard on myself.

00:15:32:12 - 00:15:51:15
Mary
And I like to tell people that, when they come to me for career advice, what is the worst that can happen here? And they typically think about it and go, oh yeah, you know, it's probably not that bad. I usually say, well, then go for it, go for it. So that would be what I would change.

00:15:51:17 - 00:16:14:13
Alison
That's very freeing advice and I think it's relevant for anyone. It's particularly relevant for women who can often expect ourselves to have 90 - 100% of the skills before we raise our hand for something. Now, you mentioned earlier that it was the Sun Life CEO who saw potential for you in a leadership role in marketing long before you gave yourself credit for that.

00:16:14:15 - 00:16:21:06
Alison
So what gave you the courage to make that leap, and how has it impacted your career?

00:16:21:08 - 00:17:00:08
Mary
I think what gave me the courage was I had a direct manager in him, in Don Stewart and I had some very good mentors around me and great colleagues around me that were able to show me, number one, that your skills are very portable, and number two, that there was very little downside in trying something different. And so I think where I lacked the confidence, often I would just trust that the people that I admired had it in me.

00:17:00:10 - 00:17:23:17
Mary
And so that trust went a long way. And then it was really simply a matter of saying, all right, I'm going to just put my hand up, even if I'm terrified, even if I'm uncomfortable, and I'm going to go for it. And so when, when I, when I share some of these experiences or draw them out of people that I'm mentoring, I typically say, you know, who is your personal board of directors?

00:17:23:19 - 00:17:43:16
Mary
And I'm always very curious about the answer. And if they don't have one or it's not broad enough, that's the first thing I'll say to them is, get one. Get a board of directors that reflects where you want to grow. Ensure that it's made up of people that are very different than you, because they'll be additive to you.

00:17:43:18 - 00:18:09:02
Mary
And as you go through different phases in your life and different phases in your career, keep adding to or changing that personal board of directors, because they will reflect where you're going, not where you've been. And, and I think that's that's always been something that I found very helpful as I've been looking at decisions in my either my personal life or importantly in my career.

00:18:09:04 - 00:18:22:23
Alison
That's such great advice again. So you are very much for someone who pays it forward, and you are known as an incredible mentor and sponsor as well. So what's inspired you to invest so much in developing others?

00:18:23:01 - 00:18:42:17
Mary
It's one of the biggest joys in in my day. I'm going to be honest with you, Alison, I, I love and maybe that's the the former journalist in me, but I love sitting down with someone and saying, all right, tell me everything. Where are you going? What are you struggling with? What do you love about what you're doing?

00:18:42:17 - 00:19:06:10
Mary
What do you not love about what you're doing? What kind of manager do you want to be? What kind of leader do you want to be? What kind of contributor do you want to be? What does life at retirement look like? And it's it's interesting you go on these journeys with people and you are able to draw out things that they know, but often you can just frame differently for them.

00:19:06:12 - 00:19:29:06
Mary
And it gives me so much joy to be able to do that. I don't know that I necessarily teach them anything new about themselves. I really I don't think I do, but I think the joy in the in the interaction is that you're able to reframe something that maybe they were too close to, and they walk away thinking, all right, I've got a different path or I can see the path clearer.

00:19:29:08 - 00:19:50:15
Mary
And so that's why I enjoy spending time with people and, and mentoring them. And, you know, really just understanding how they view the world. Now, I'll tell you, it's not just one way. It is very much mutually beneficial, because what I walk away with every time is a new insight or something that I hadn't thought about before.

00:19:50:15 - 00:20:14:08
Mary
And as I like to joke, my mentees actually are probably some of my best mentors because I'm finding I am learning so much from this younger generation that is just dealing with a very different world. In a world where they're at the forefront of how brands are evolving, how disruption is playing out, the use of AI in their daily lives.

00:20:14:09 - 00:20:29:04
Mary
There's so much more comfortable with technology. And so I'd like to say I'm doing the mentoring. I think it's actually a bit of a two way street and I get a lot out of it. So that's why I spend so much time doing it. It's actually a real joy.

00:20:29:06 - 00:20:46:13
Alison
I've had a similar experience to you. It's one of the most rewarding things we can do. And to your point, I learn absolutely as much, if not more, from any mentees that I've had as they're learning from me as a mentor? Now you've accomplished a ton in your career so far. So the next question might be a bit of a tough one.

00:20:46:15 - 00:20:52:10
Alison
When you think about all you've done, what accomplishment are you most proud of in your career so far?

00:20:52:12 - 00:21:16:08
Mary
That's a really good question, Alison. And so, you know, just I'll just give you my top of mind reaction. There's nothing, there's nothing that comes to mind that is about the work. I know the work was incredible. You know, I think back to all the wins and the incredible highs and the great KPIs and the great outcomes for the business.

00:21:16:10 - 00:21:52:07
Mary
That's all so wonderful. But it is not the thing that I think about when I think about my career. I would say that the biggest accomplishment for me has been to see someone that I knew early in their career, now be an executive and put their own mark of leadership on a wide group of people. And I, I love being in those meetings where I sit back and think, you know, I'll look at someone and I'll just see them crushing it in a meeting.

00:21:52:07 - 00:22:27:10
Mary
And I'll think, I remember when you were, you know, way over here and now you are holding yourself with so much autonomy and expertise and passion and leadership. And I know my job is done, right? And I think that is one of the most exciting things for me as a marketer, or even in my prior career in the investment business, is when you see that generation just rise up and become so accomplished.

00:22:27:12 - 00:22:45:15
Mary
It just, it's but maybe it's the mom in me, but it gives me such a proud feeling that that next generation is going to just go out and crush it. And we're going to be in great hands, right? We're going to be in just great hands. That to me, like I see the people, I see their names, I see their faces.

00:22:45:17 - 00:22:57:03
Mary
And that to me just puts a smile on my face. The work is the work. I think the work is the means to which people excel. So I would say that is probably the biggest accomplishment.

00:22:57:05 - 00:23:19:17
Alison
That might be the mom in you. It is definitely the leader in you, for sure. So the CMA Awards this year recognized such inspiring talent from a creativity perspective, Marketer of the year, Rising talent. You were absolutely the highlight for me in receiving our Lifetime Achievement Award. What did that mean for you?

00:23:19:19 - 00:23:44:02
Mary
Well, I think I've shared this with you a little bit. Alison. I was not expecting the effect to be as profound as it has been. What it has meant for me is personally, to to achieve recognition like that. I don't know that there's anything bigger. There isn't, at least for me, an honour bigger than the one that you have bestowed.

00:23:44:02 - 00:24:12:06
Mary
And, and I have been so humbled by it. It has been incredibly moving for me personally. The team has been so excited, especially since I've told them, you know, I feel like I'm the steward of this award. I feel like it's a shared award and everybody's part of it, and that makes me incredibly happy. But personally, I've heard from hundreds of people all the way through when I was in grade school, Alison.

00:24:12:06 - 00:24:39:03
Mary
Like, they they've just found a way to sort of connect back. And it might be that hometown Hamilton thing, but my parents, my family, my extended network. Hearing from them, seeing how emotional they've been has made me even more emotional. So I would say I've never been so grateful. I've never been so humbled. And it has meant the world to me and my family.

00:24:39:03 - 00:24:44:01
Mary
I, I just can't thank you and the CMA board enough.

00:24:44:03 - 00:24:56:05
Alison
So you made me tear up in one of our earlier conversations, when you shared your how your parents reacted and your dad in particular. So I'm going to put you on the spot and see if you'll share that story with us.

00:24:56:07 - 00:25:23:02
Mary
Oh my gosh. So my parents are immigrants to Canada and I think the most they were hoping for was all that sacrifice would just give my brother and I a head start. And so when they read the the article in the Hamilton Spectator and they saw some of the footage from the award presentation, my dad cried, and my dad never cries.

00:25:23:04 - 00:25:53:04
Mary
And, it was it was an incredible moment for my father, just, and my mother just to know that, all that sacrifice and all that hard work and all of that knowledge that they tried to pass on to my brother and I landed somewhere, and they they just felt really good about that. And, and then just a quick story is in the Hamilton Spectator, they asked me a question about, you know, what what were some of the core memories from Hamilton.

00:25:53:06 - 00:26:14:22
Mary
And I told them, my gosh, like growing up, it was Roma Pizza. It's, it's it's going to sound crazy, but Roma Pizza is just a slab of dough with tomato sauce. There's no cheese, there's no toppings. But it's one of those things where where you know, you know, right. Like you just know. And when you're from Hamilton, you know what Roma pizza meant to your childhood. 

00:26:15:00 - 00:26:37:17
Mary
Anyway, so they they were inundated by calls from people who had read that Hamilton Spectator article where I talked about Roma Pizza and its importance in my life, and through a friend and an uncle and a cousin and a friend, they found my father. And when they reconnected with my dad, and they gave my dad a couple of pizzas, which I thought was incredibly kind.

00:26:37:19 - 00:26:51:11
Mary
It was again, such an unbelievable moment for, for my, my parents and such a classic Hamilton moment. So, so many tentacles to this award, including, you know, ones like that. But I've been so grateful.

00:26:51:13 - 00:27:09:10
Alison
And talk about Hamilton pride. The feature that they did after you won the Lifetime Achievement Award was incredible. You also, in typical Mary DePaoli fashion, used it for good. So can you share a little bit about the charity that's benefiting and how that worked?

00:27:09:12 - 00:27:43:01
Mary
Yeah. Thank you. I think this is, this is also one of the most incredible things about this. I have to thank Jordan Bitove and Mike Beckerman with Torstar. When they when they heard about this award, they did something so brilliant, and I thought so community-minded. They reached out and said, we own the Hamilton Spectator. It's a great editorial story, but could we contact some of the partners that you deal with and inquire whether or not they would want to put a congratulatory ad in the paper?

00:27:43:03 - 00:28:04:23
Mary
And if so, we know what you're going to say, Mary. It's either going to be "no:, or it's going to be "yes as long as we could do something related to charity." And so they had already thought that through. And they said all the proceeds of these congratulatory ads will go to a charity of your choice. Mike Beckerman led the charge, with Stephanie Bannan on my team.

00:28:05:01 - 00:28:37:03
Mary
Two incredible people. And so net-net, I opened the paper and there are six pages of ads. It raised over $40,000. And I've directed it to the Hamilton Food Network, which is essentially the food banks across the Hamilton region, and especially at this time of year, where they are so pressured to meet the demand, we were able to give them over $40,000 to buy food for families.

00:28:37:03 - 00:28:50:07
Mary
And so, that was, again, just the power of this incredible group of people that I've known and the way they mobilize and what they do for good. And I have to give them all the credit, because that was pretty, pretty phenomenal of them.

00:28:50:09 - 00:29:11:15
Alison
I am so thrilled with all of the families, especially as you say at this time of year, there is such a need for food banks right now, so thank you for that. So the close off today's discussion, I would love you to share the advice that you would give to marketers who are listening, that aspire to follow in your footsteps, and perhaps one day also receive the CMA Lifetime Achievement Award.

00:29:11:17 - 00:29:39:01
Mary
Well, I would say this. I would say your footsteps are going to be different than mine. And they should be. They should be uniquely yours. And I would say, own your career, bet on yourself. And surround yourself with people that believe in you too, and are willing to bet on you and advocate for you even when you're not in the room.

00:29:39:03 - 00:29:59:04
Mary
And so I talked a little bit about what that personal board of directors looks like. Think about what yours is. Think about who should be on it. Think about how that board changes, the kind of advice that they will give you. Seek it out thoughtfully. Use that time wisely and your career is going to be everything you want it to be.

00:29:59:04 - 00:30:09:23
Mary
But, bet on yourself, and be curious, and just surround yourself with really good people. And honestly, you'll be just fine. You'll be more than fine.

00:30:10:01 - 00:30:20:20
Alison
Thank you so much. This has been an absolutely wonderful conversation, and I really appreciate you making time in your very busy schedule to share your great career and insights with our listeners.

00:30:20:22 - 00:30:32:04
Mary
Thank you. Alison, you've, you've made it easy, and I really appreciate everything that you do for the industry.

00:30:32:06 - 00:30:44:19
Presenter
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