EP34 - The Psychology of Persuasion in Marketing with Darren Chiu and Ben Wise

On this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA welcomes two influential people from Google. Darren Chiu, Account Executive and Ben Wise, Head of Programmatic Media, who also happen to be the co-founders of Captivate. Together, they discuss effective psychological tactics used in marketing campaigns, from emotional appeal and scarcity to personalization and social proof. They also discuss common mistakes, active listening,  understanding your audience, building credibility and leveraging storytelling.

00:00:01:16 - 00:00:24:00
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO, Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:02 - 00:00:53:15
Alison
Today I have two special guests joining me who are absolutely experts in the art and science of persuasion and communication. Ben Wise and Darren Chiu are the co-founders of Captivate. It's a company dedicated to helping marketers really understand and leverage the psychological principles that drive consumer behaviour and decision-making. Both Ben and Darren have spent almost 14 years at Google. Ben also serves on the board of directors for the Daily Bread Food Bank, mentors young professionals in media and tech, and advises multiple early stage startups on sales and growth.

00:00:53:17 - 00:01:15:23
Alison
Darren worked for another CMA member, Microsoft, before joining Google. He has also been recognized as an emerging leader by The Peak. In this episode, we're diving into the fascinating world of the psychology of persuasion and exploring how marketers can apply these concepts to create more effective campaigns, to build stronger brands, and to communicate much more persuasively with both their external and internal audiences.

00:01:16:01 - 00:01:38:04
Alison
Ben and Darren will sh-re their insights on the most powerful psychological tactics used in marketing. They'll provide great examples of campaigns that have successfully leveraged these principles and offer some very hands on, practical advice for how marketers can improve their own persuasion and communication skills. We'll also discuss how these psychological concepts are core to career development and success in the marketing profession.

00:01:38:06 - 00:01:48:14
Alison
Ben and Darren have lots of great advice to share that will help marketers sell their ideas much more effectively and manage their personal brands. I'm really excited to dive in, so welcome Ben and Darren.

00:01:48:16 - 00:01:50:01
Darren
Hello, Alison.

00:01:50:03 - 00:01:51:19
Ben
Thank you so much for having us.

00:01:51:21 - 00:02:05:15
Alison
So you both have very successful careers, very demanding, great day jobs. And you're doing this on the site. I would love you to share the origin story of Captivate and your approach to the psychology of persuasion and communication in marketing.

00:02:05:17 - 00:02:24:23
Ben
So it started a few years ago, and me and Darren actually used to be on the same team. And one day Darren came to me and said, hey, Ben, can I get 15 minutes in a team meeting? There are these things I've been researching, all of that psychology that you've been using in your sales pitches with clients, that were really working, and you thought the team would, you think the team would really benefit from?

00:02:25:00 - 00:02:43:12
Ben
So of course, I gave him the time and Darren walked us through a whole bunch of things. I think it was 3 or 4 really cool techniques and not just what they were, but like how to actually use them, like how to take these, you know, research concepts and put it into practice in a day-to-day environment. And coming out of that, I said like, hey Darren, I think this is really cool.

00:02:43:15 - 00:03:03:07
Ben
Why don't you do something with it? Like, why don't you start a newsletter? And I think your reaction was like, great idea, but then didn't have time to do it. And then I think it was like a year after that, there was a reorg and Darren moved teams, and then because we were no longer on the same team, I figured, hey, it's not a conflict of interest, why don't we do this together?

00:03:03:09 - 00:03:22:15
Ben
And that's when we started the newsletter. It started, I want to say it was March of 2023 was our first issue. So coming up on two years now. And then it's just kind of snowballed from there. So the, you know, the newsletter was how we founded. A few months in, we had a bunch of people saying, hey, we really love this content, and we've got a new sales team or a new marketing team.

00:03:22:15 - 00:03:40:11
Ben
We'd love you to come in and do a training. Would you be open to that? And we hadn't occurred to us but we were like, yeah, that sounds like fun. We like presenting, we like the content. And then that got good feedback. And so we, you know, constantly looking for new ways to get the ideas out there, whether that is speaking engagements, corporate trainings,

00:03:40:11 - 00:03:57:11
Ben
the newsletter obviously is still the core, social video. We're trying to, we're really passionate about the idea of how you use psychology to be a better communicator, to be a better salesperson, to be a better marketer. And we're trying to get the content out there in whatever way we can, essentially. So that's kind of how we came to be.

00:03:57:13 - 00:04:00:02
Ben
And I guess where we are today.

00:04:00:04 - 00:04:06:18
Alison
And Darren, did you ever think that asking for that 15 minute meeting would lead to a pretty impressive side gig?

00:04:06:20 - 00:04:25:04
Darren
No. So what Ben skillfully admitted was the fact that he was my manager at the time, and that's why we never got it going during that time. Because it's a conflict, seems like a conflict of interest. But what he's really trying to say that I was his favourite team member on the team, but he will lose his job if he said that. Now, now he can openly admit it.

00:04:25:07 - 00:04:28:07
Ben
This is being recorded, we can't say that!

00:04:28:09 - 00:04:43:12
Darren
But it was so much fun. Because I was, I didn't do is not because I didn't have time. I didn't make time. And and that's why Ben came in and say, hey, now that we're not on the same team, let's try to make time. So I'm very grateful for his mentorship, and I'm so glad that it's happening.

00:04:43:14 - 00:04:53:05
Alison
That's one of the most successful outcomes of a restructure I've ever heard of, so... now, what are some of the most effective psychological tactics that you've seen used in marketing campaigns?

00:04:53:07 - 00:05:09:14
Darren
I'll say a few, and then Ben, let me know if there's anything you want to add. A recent one that I've been seeing a lot on YouTube is actually a Airbnb one. It says, like the thing with hotels that they stay the same size, but your kid's getting bigger, or, this is your hotel room, but also your living room, also your kid's playground.

00:05:09:14 - 00:05:28:20
Darren
And then just so cramped. But with Airbnb, you can do this and that. I thought that was a really, first of all, relatable and but also very clever because it touches on a few things that we all know. First of all, you know, it's got emotional appeal. We can all relate to some of the downside of living in the hotel, but also the idea of scarcity and exclusivity.

00:05:28:22 - 00:05:53:07
Darren
But this whole unique experience that you get with personal connection with Airbnb hosts, with your own space, is very different. And also the scarcity of that. Sometimes there's only one house like this, whereas hotel, there's like, you know, I don't know, two hundred hotel rooms, and it's in this big building. So I feel like that was a very fun and clever one that we can all relate to through emotional appeal and scarcity and exclusivity.

00:05:53:09 - 00:06:15:22
Darren
Another one that's been going around, I thought it was pretty interesting for a while, is actually, the Share a Coke campaign. It's the Coke bottle with your name on it. And, because Coke has been one of the most well-known brands for forever. So I feel like the one thing they do really well is that they always, constantly reinventing themselves.

00:06:15:22 - 00:06:33:09
Darren
And this idea of personalization, because we all love seeing and hearing our names, they really brought it to light when they do that, but also the idea of social proof, right? People share the photos of their Coke bottle and say, hey, you had that. I don't have that. And also the idea of scarcity. Some names are more than others.

00:06:33:09 - 00:06:49:13
Darren
Some names are less likely to be found than others, so people go and hunt for it. So these are really cool psychological tactics that they employ - the fear of missing out, scarcity, personalization. So these are some of the cool things that we've seen recently in marketing campaigns.

00:06:49:15 - 00:06:52:14
Alison
Those are great examples. Ben, how would you build on those?

00:06:52:16 - 00:07:12:15
Ben
It's hard to say which tactics are most effective, because a lot of it still comes down to, you know, how it's executed. So, you know, social proof, we know is an extremely powerful technique, extremely powerful concepts in the way that like, people interpret things, but the way you use it has to be, still needs to be unique and creative.

00:07:12:15 - 00:07:31:05
Ben
There's still a human element in like, how do you come up with it? So every product in the world, every website in the world now has reviews. You know, whoever, or whoever was the first person to put a review on their website on their products, it was genius at the time, but now it's become table stakes and it doesn't stand out and it doesn't pull on it in quite the same way.

00:07:31:07 - 00:07:53:16
Ben
So I think a real big element of like how you make these successful is, you have to understand the technique or the tactic and the concept behind it, but you also have to find creative ways to actually implement it. So it's not just a matter of like checking the box, you've got social proof because I put a review on these products, it's actually still maintaining that, you know, human creative element.

00:07:53:16 - 00:08:04:01
Ben
And I think brands that figure out ways to do that. I think, you know, Darren, your examples, there were great ones. They're taking old techniques and applying them in new ways.

00:08:04:03 - 00:08:16:21
Alison
Now, social media has certainly been a great potential accelerator for marketers and brands in doing this. Can you give a couple of examples where you've seen that really leveraged to its best benefit?

00:08:16:23 - 00:08:38:01
Ben
Yeah, I mean, I mean social media especially like influencer marketing, "influencer" is kind of another word for, I think the formal research term would be like, authority. Because the influencers you follow do have a certain level of authority for whatever their, their niche or their topic is. I think a really interesting concept that works really well on social media is something called the effort heuristic.

00:08:38:03 - 00:09:06:21
Ben
So sorry for sounding all like science-y. I don't like the word heuristic. But essentially it means people will take the effort that's put into something as a proxy for the quality. And I think the storytelling you can do with social media really lets you show the effort that goes into it. There's all this, like, a lot of social contact is like, you know, here's behind-the-scenes stuff of, you know, here's a movie, but all the socials are here's behind the scenes of the actors here at the work they're putting on it.

00:09:06:21 - 00:09:30:11
Ben
Here's they are like training for the stunt scenes, and it really shows a lot of that effort that goes into it. And I think that's a really good way in social specifically to use that that concept in a really fun way that that resonates with, with customers, but also has that effect of showing people, God, these folks worked really hard on this product, on this movie, on this new service.

00:09:30:16 - 00:09:36:20
Ben
It must be really good, because they take that as a as their proxy to understand how great it is.

00:09:36:22 - 00:09:48:06
Alison
It's also intriguing to get that behind-the-scenes view too, and a better understanding of everything that goes into it, and just insights into how someone else is living and creating.

00:09:48:08 - 00:09:48:23
Ben
Absolutely.

00:09:49:01 - 00:10:17:03
Darren
Yeah, yeah, I would say social media really added an entirely different element to marketing, especially around authenticity and accountability. That level of authenticity was never achieved before social media. Alison, you mentioned behind-the-scenes stuff, right? Ben mentioned all these things that like, you know, all the behind-the-scenes. B-roll. It's a huge one. People want to know. Before, consumers will just see a perfect commercial right in front of them.

00:10:17:05 - 00:10:35:20
Darren
And that and now social media, they almost don't care to be perfect. They want you to see they're messing up. They want you to see what's happening in the back. And then in the end, that's very human. And I think we really relate to that. And I think that level of authenticity brings a different level connection with us and our consumers and in terms of just overall accountability.

00:10:36:02 - 00:10:54:15
Darren
Like you can't really get away with being a bad brand, bad products, because reviews, comments, you lose followership. And I think overall it's, I feel like it's much more tiring right now to be a marketer because there's so many, so many ways that you have to sort of cover your bases. But it's also, I think, way more fun,

00:10:54:15 - 00:11:03:22
Darren
And way more interesting. So yeah, I think social media is a, is is not a whole topic. But I love the authenticity and accountability it creates.

00:11:04:00 - 00:11:10:10
Alison
And you're so right that the life of a marketer, it's never been more exciting and more exhausting. 

Darren
Yeah.

Alison
Very true.

00:11:10:12 - 00:11:19:05
Ben
Yeah. There's more opportunities than ever before, but navigating through all of those different things is very complicated.

00:11:19:07 - 00:11:33:07
Alison
Figuring out of all the opportunities, where do you place your bets? And yeah, inevitably when something goes wrong, it can the snowball can grow at such unbelievable pace, that how do you get in front of it and manage the downside too?

00:11:33:09 - 00:11:34:13
Ben
Yeah for sure.

00:11:34:15 - 00:11:45:08
Alison
So on that, there's also very valuable learning from understanding what doesn't work. So I'd love you both to share the top three mistakes that you see and how our audience can avoid or overcome them.

00:11:45:10 - 00:12:05:19
Ben
So I put some thought into this in advance, and I've got my my three. I would say number one - and like if you take anything away from for people listening or watching, like if you take one thing away, it would be do not focus too much on the functional side, focus on the emotional side. People make very, very emotional decisions.

00:12:06:01 - 00:12:28:13
Ben
And even if I rationalize that with some functional thing, oh, I chose this phone because the camera has a gazillion megapixels and it's got this much hard drive. And I've rationalize it with these facts. I chose that phone because I think it's cool and I like it, and it looks fun. There's an emotional element to every decision, and I think we spend so much time on, like, what is our unique value proposition?

00:12:28:13 - 00:12:54:01
Ben
And here's functional benefit one and two and three and you know, eight, nine and ten. But really people are buying things or making decisions on emotional reasons. And as, as marketers we need to really emphasize that. So that's number one. I would say number two is, and this is getting into, sort of B2B versus B2C, but I think in B2C, a lot of people are like, yeah, we're we're talking to humans.

00:12:54:01 - 00:13:16:14
Ben
We're talking to consumers. When you get into B2B, some people think like it's, oh, I'm talking to a company. It's this faceless corporation that I'm talking to. I should treat them as, you know, I'm selling to faceless Corporation A. It's like, well, Faceless Corporation A is actually made up of human beings. And the person that's going to decide if they should work with you or if they should buy your service or product is a human being.

00:13:16:15 - 00:13:36:16
Ben
So even when it's B2B, these human ideas of the emotions and how you connect with them and how you persuade and communicate with them are every bit as important as in B2C. And we get that pushback a lot where people say, well, I'm in B2B, so so this doesn't apply. And it's like, well, the person on the other side of the table is still a person.

00:13:36:18 - 00:13:56:07
Ben
And then I would say like number three for me is there are so many different tactics and techniques that we talk about. I mean, we have a, almost an infinite runway for a newsletter where we do one technique every month. And I think having a bunch of those in your toolkit lets you choose the one that is going to work best in a given situation.

00:13:56:07 - 00:14:13:21
Ben
I think a lot of people will say like, okay, I really like social proof, as an example. I'm going to put social proof into everything. It's like, well, it's a great tool, but you also have to know when to use it. And not all tactics are going to work in all situations. So they'll try to force something where it doesn't fit.

00:14:13:21 - 00:14:31:17
Ben
So I would say for me those the big three is - really focus on the emotional side. B2B - still humans, still still talking to other humans. We're emotional, irrational beings. And number three is like finding the right tactics for the right situation, because not everything works every time.

00:14:31:19 - 00:14:52:08
Alison
Those all three are great. The everyone's a human ultimately, when we're marketing is the one that really resonates for me. And in many ways, B2C and B2B are outdated concepts, it's always B2H. We're always communicating to humans and at the core of what we're doing, would certainly make life easier. So, Darren, what would you add?

00:14:52:10 - 00:15:11:21
Darren
I would just add, maybe like 1.5, maybe not all three. Because these are really good ones. I think one thing I would add is, not listening well enough. We're like, very quick to rush to get our argument across. Or when they're saying something you just think about, oh, this is exactly what I'm going to say to respond to what they're saying.

00:15:11:22 - 00:15:32:11
Darren
But really just take a, take a beat and listen to what they're saying. And, you know, very often we see people go to like a presentation and we see people just go point after point after point. And, it's like pitch, pitch, pitch. Do you like it? And they don't take a second to really address what people are actually wanting or what people are actually struggling with.

00:15:32:13 - 00:15:51:05
Darren
We definitely see that a lot, especially coming from really, really capable, smart people because they have they have so much information they want to get across. But it's kind of like having a conversation with someone where every sentence is an "I" in it. There's no "you" in it. Just I this, I this, I this. And I think we should flip that around. Say - what do you think?

00:15:51:05 - 00:16:08:07
Darren
How do you feel about this? Does it sound good to you? Does it sound bad to you? I think that's one huge mistake that a lot of people here, and we would love to see people more just taking a step back and listening to their counterpart and really absorbing it. And even if you don't have anything good to say, at least you're acknowledging it and you're building that connection and that rapport.

00:16:09:19 - 00:16:26:22
Alison
That's a great add-on. If you think like, in the most engaging meetings you've been in, it's not, when someone, no matter how great a presenter they are, are standing at the front of the room just talking at you, as when they engage you in a conversation and you feel part of the storytelling and part of the the time together.

00:16:27:00 - 00:16:27:15
Darren
Yeah.

00:16:27:17 - 00:16:28:22
Ben
For sure.

00:16:29:00 - 00:16:50:07
Alison
So how how can you teach people to listen better? We've got lots of great, talented marketers who are listening today, and I know when you said we all need to listen better, I could definitely cite 1 or 2 times recently where I was thinking about how I was going to respond, which means I wasn't actively listening. So how do we break that habit?

00:16:50:09 - 00:17:26:05
Darren
Yeah, I mean, I will share one.  Alison, I do the same, sometimes I listen, and I have a perfect listening face. So one thing I have forced myself to do a lot now in conversations that matter, is I will paraphrase back and say, sounds like, dot dot dot dot. Seems like dot dot dot dot, and then just repeat it back. And I think the best thing is, if you could repeat it back to them in your own words, almost in a way that it's more succinct in the way they're saying it back, by saying it you, you make it sound like you understand them more they than themselves because they're like, oh, he heard everything.

00:17:26:05 - 00:17:37:09
Darren
And then he digested it and he's repeating back to me in a more succinct way. It's a good practice. It's not easy because you have to say it back right away. But it comes easier, easier as the more you practice.

00:17:37:11 - 00:17:50:06
Alison
Well, the other benefit of that is if you play it back and you didn't interpret it the way that they hoped you would at that moment in time, you're going to like they're going to be able to course correct, and that's going to lead to a more fruitful and productive conversation, too.

00:17:50:10 - 00:17:52:01
Darren
Yeah, exactly. 

00:17:52:01 - 00:18:09:07
Ben
I mean these things are really, I think, very simple, but just hard to make a habit of doing. And I, I always laugh, like when you scroll through LinkedIn, like every fifth post is something to do with like how to be a better listener. And you think like, well, I've been listening since I was a baby. Before I could talk, I know how to listen.

00:18:09:09 - 00:18:26:19
Ben
And yet so many of us, and you know, I include myself in that are not perfect at it. It seems like something that should be so easy, but it really takes a lot of that conscious effort to make sure you are doing that. And it's it's, I would say like it's a mindset of, don't take it for granted that just because you have ears means you could listen well.

00:18:26:21 - 00:18:31:10
Alison
Yeah, it's like anything it's like levels of fitness, levels of listening. Like there are levels to it, right?

00:18:31:14 - 00:18:31:23
Ben
For sure.
 
00:18:32:01 - 00:18:40:08
Alison
And there are times where you can maybe get away with a more surface approach to listening and times you absolutely should be like full-on active listening.

00:18:40:13 - 00:18:41:16
Darren
Exactly.

00:18:41:17 - 00:18:56:10
Alison
You've got so many great examples and great advice around the power of persuasion and how to really become strong, strong communicators. I'd love you to share how these principles can apply to career development.

00:18:56:12 - 00:19:15:14
Darren
I think is not too different from like, as a marketer, is you can position yourself as a brand, and a lot of the things  a marketer would do for their brand will apply to you as an individual in your career. Like, for instance, one of the one of the first things a marketer does is understanding your audience.

00:19:15:16 - 00:19:37:10
Darren
So, you as an individual, you can do that. Know who your stakeholders are. Know who you're talking to. Know what you're trying to appeal to. Earlier, Ben talked about the importance of balancing between logic with a lot of emotional connection - do that at work. Right. Because we think coming into a meeting and coming into relationship with logic and good evidence, that's table stakes.

00:19:37:12 - 00:20:05:15
Darren
That's your, that's your baseline. So always bring that to work of course. But find a psychological safety in your environment with your team. You know, just to strengthen the emotional appeal, the emotional bond between team members. So I think that's one very foundational thing everyone should do. Another thing is just build on your credibility. Like we talked about authority bias as one of our psychological principles. People put way more emphasis on the things that someone says

00:20:05:15 - 00:20:29:15
Darren
if that person is perceived to be more intelligent or perceived to be higher power. Whatever they say might not be true, but just the fact that they're, sometimes taller, better looking, more successful, richer, whatever that is. So there is, you know, you have to build that credibility for yourself. So, at work, be a voice of authority, find out what you're really good at, and make sure that you are, you are having your voice heard.

00:20:29:16 - 00:20:55:15
Darren
Leveraging storytelling in presentations. We hear that a lot, that is a whole other podcast, but I'm sure a lot of you have been hearing a lot about the power of storytelling. So that's one. Another thing you just say leverage things like reciprocity. Like very often we come to our stakeholders asking for stuff, but what are you offering? If you want to build a good relationship at work, if you want to appeal to your managers or your bosses, as being very supportive and helpful,

00:20:55:17 - 00:21:13:10
Darren
then offer your help before you take any. OK, these are the things I can do for you. And in return, I think we could work on something else to make this better. So, quick to offer help, quick to offer support and sort of advance relationship through this reciprocity. Ben, have you got anything you want to add?

00:21:13:12 - 00:21:40:00
Ben
Yeah. I mean, no, not not too specific, but I would say like, as a, as a general thing is, all the like psychological techniques that we talk about or that we write about are true of humans, which which means whether you're marketing to them, they will apply. But if you're dealing with them internally, it also applies. So if you want to be more persuasive, if you want to be more authoritative in your communications, think about a lot of these psychological principles.

00:21:40:00 - 00:22:00:09
Ben
And I think, you know, Darren, you mentioned a bunch of like, reciprocity-building or authority, those kinds of things. But when you're going into a meeting with somebody, when you're going into a presentation, if you've got a coffee catch-up with the client, if you're talking to your boss in a review, think through some of those psychological principles and how you want to apply those into those conversations.

00:22:00:11 - 00:22:22:05
Ben
And the more you do it, the more it becomes kind of a habit and a kind of a default behaviour. But they apply everywhere. And it's not something, as marketers, that we should think of only within a campaign. It's also how you work internally. It's how you work with other humans. So thinking about that psychological element in all of your internal stakeholders and all of those internal meetings and relationships, I would say, is just as important.

00:22:22:07 - 00:22:58:17
Alison
Very great advice. So I want to build on the storytelling piece with my next question. We've all been in situations where we wanted to sell something through, not necessarily a marketing campaign, maybe it's promotion, maybe it's a raise, maybe it is a marketing campaign and where our storytelling wasn't all that successful. So I'd love you both to share a personal situation where at first you weren't successful, and then you sort of stepped back, regrouped, and were able to ultimately sell through using some of the psychological principles, that you've shared with us today. 

00:22:58:17 - 00:23:23:21
Ben
For sure. I mean, for me, I really think about how we, because that's what we do for Captivate, like, I really think about how we walk the walk of of what we're preaching. And so if you look at the evolution of some of our presentations or training sessions or even the newsletter, as we learn more and more techniques, we try to think about how do we infuse those into,into what we do.

00:23:23:21 - 00:23:49:05
Ben
And often they're like very simple, small things. So, you know, one example was I think the first, you know, five or six emails we sent out, or newsletters that we sent out, it was like, "Hello, readers." And labeling them as as readers is one thing. And at one point I very consciously thought about, I think, well, you know, we're reading a lot about labeling and talking about the power or the emotional power of what that means.

00:23:49:05 - 00:24:08:21
Ben
And we changed that to "Hello, Captivate community." Small little change. But it's if I'm going to label you as something that I think is going to be helpful for what you're about to read, being labeled as part of our community is a much nicer emotion than being labeled as a reader, right? So it's, it's finding those small things.

00:24:08:21 - 00:24:39:05
Ben
Another example I would say is, you know, when after we did a whole bunch of work on, or a whole bunch of research around priming in our, a lot of the training sessions or presentations, we do, you know, we go through a bunch of the specific techniques and tactics, and we do get the priming near the end. But I always make sure that like there's there's a sentence or two upfront that is, you know, I'll often say if you find human behaviour really, really important, I think you're going to find a lot of the tactics today really useful.

00:24:39:07 - 00:24:58:06
Ben
And I, I've primed them there a little bit as like people who are going to are interested in human behaviour. And if we're talking to a room of marketers or a room of salespeople, that's going to be everybody. But it kind of primes them with that label. And then, you know, I say, when we get to the end that that was part of a technique, but it shows how easy it is to build it in.

00:24:58:08 - 00:25:17:10
Ben
But it's, it's a lot of those small things. And that's a lot of what we talk about is, these techniques are so powerful, but these changes that you actually have to make are so tiny. Like it's really easy to put them into use. I think those are two really basic things that we've changed, as we've done more of our own research and figure out how to, how to do it.

00:25:17:10 - 00:25:32:22
Ben
But it's, it's really that mindset of constant improvement and building these tactics and techniques into the basics of what you're doing, whether it's how you address somebody in an email or how you kick off a training session.

00:25:32:23 - 00:25:48:01
Alison
Those are such great examples. And the power of the small changes making it much more aspirational. When I think about being described as a reader to being part of the Captivate community, -t also took me from a fairly passive role to a very active, hands on role. .

00:25:48:01 - 00:25:48:09
Ben
One hundred percent.

00:25:48:09 - 00:25:51:18
Alison
So the power of language is mission critical. So, Darren, what would you like to add?

00:25:51:18 - 00:25:54:01
Ben
Glad glad it's working. Yeah.

00:25:54:03 - 00:26:16:16
Darren
Alison, that was a great active listening. But okay, I will give an actual example that actually that happened to me at work, during one of the meetings. So I was told by a, a sales rep that the client that I'm meeting really loves social media. And I was obviously attending the meeting on behalf of Google.

00:26:16:18 - 00:26:34:00
Darren
And, so one of the first things I did is I make sure the presentation is all set up in a way that is quote unquote social media-friendly. I was I was mocking all the creative into social media format. And I also pull what they have on their social media to sort of recognize that, hey, this is working well for you,

00:26:34:02 - 00:26:53:19
Darren
here's what we can do better. Effectively, what I was trying to do is just through the power of a strategic mimicry to see that, hey, I'm on the same page with you, and I understand your business. But what I didn't know, is that the client actually didn't care about any of this. After, like, you know, me, 20 minutes of showing my beautiful presentation, me thinking that I'm priming them.

00:26:54:00 - 00:27:25:02
Darren
I'm on the same page. I'm strategically mimicking them. They, they just weren't on board. And this is where I think the power of active listening becomes really important. So I was sort of asking questions around, like, you know, does this not resonate with you? How do you feel about this? And eventually they said, you know, we love all these amazing metrics on social media like likes and shares and all these things, and you don't have. And like, okay, I'm like, okay, so tell me what you're using those metrics for.

00:27:25:04 - 00:27:44:17
Darren
Because they're not, they're not bringing you revenue. They're not bringing you website visits. So what are you using those metrics for? I would love to learn more. And there's a saying that, oh, we love it because it's a great indication how if our marketing campaign is working. It's a great indication if our creative is working. So now I know what they truly are struggling with is status quo bias.

00:27:44:19 - 00:28:06:03
Darren
They have always measured their success on how well their creative is working, and they're trying to look for that in our marketing campaign. And what we don't have is likes and shares. So I said, oh, great, sounds like - active listening - sounds like measuring your creative success is important to you. If I can achieve that with different art or other different metrics,

00:28:06:05 - 00:28:20:13
Darren
how does that sound to you? And they say, okay, so they say, okay, great, tell me what you could do. So then I showed them a list of other things that I can could do to help them measure the success of a creative and, in status quo bias, we talked a lot about people hate change.

00:28:20:19 - 00:28:37:04
Darren
They've always measured the things this way. And now we're trying to help them measure things other different ways. So, I think that's one thing that we need to focus on. So in this, in this scenario, we found the status quo bias. We adjusted. We showed them the how we could do, what we could do for them to make it better.

00:28:37:06 - 00:28:54:08
Darren
And eventually got the buy-in. So I feel like this was a series of back and forth, a lot of them a psychological barriers to jump through. But we eventually got there, just through really listening, recognizing and finding out what's stopping them from moving forward.

00:28:54:10 - 00:29:16:23
Alison
Those are great examples. It's also really helpful on what you both just shared in your personal experiences, though, seeing how it's applied in real world situations really will help our listeners and myself understand more thoroughly how we can be implementing it and taking advantage of this in our lives as well. So I really appreciate you both taking time to share the personal stories.

00:29:17:01 - 00:29:35:13
Ben
For sure, and I think that's such a big part of it. I mean, so much of the research that we go into, is in this controlled experiment where we had 15 people in a room and we gave them a Diet Coke, and we didn't give the next room like, okay, it's interesting, but like, I'm never in a room with 15 random people that I'm giving Cokes to, like, that's not a real world scenario.

00:29:35:13 - 00:29:55:16
Ben
So, so we, you know, we say we're not academics, we're practitioners. Our job as Captivate is to take like, translate all that mumbo jumbo research, that sounds interesting, but it's not applicable and make it actually useful for you in your day-to-day role. Whether that's a marketing campaign, a sales pitch, or something internal.

00:29:55:18 - 00:30:18:12
Alison
That's very powerful. So much appreciated. So before I let you both go on your busy days, I would love to close off the discussion and have you each provide a piece of advice that you would give to marketers who are looking to improve their persuasion and communication skills. Obviously, you've given lots of advice throughout this, but if they were going to walk away with one thing and start implementing it today, what would you recommend?

00:30:18:13 - 00:30:36:06
Ben
For me, it comes back to, emotions first. We are emotional, irrational beings, and that's how we make decisions. And you need to be thinking about that no matter what you're doing. Again, internal, external, sales, marketing, anything. Emotions first.

00:30:36:12 - 00:30:38:10
Darren
Okay. That's a good one.

00:30:38:10 - 00:30:43:20
Ben
Sorry, I took the easy one. That's kind of like the, that's like the foundational value for us. So I jumped on it quickly.

00:30:43:21 - 00:31:03:21
Darren
You took the best one. I would build on it. I would say unlearn everything that you learned or know about debates. In a debate, it's like a Y shape. You start with a topic and you splinter. This is my view and this is your view. Whoever has a more logical view wins. In negotiation and communication, it's the opposite.

00:31:03:23 - 00:31:20:12
Darren
You start with opposing views and you're trying to find a way, a common ground, so you can do business together. So it's quite the opposite as what you would see on like a debate team or whatever that is. So one thing Ben and I would often like to tell people is that, lose the battle, but win the war.

00:31:20:14 - 00:31:48:08
Darren
Try not to debate your way out of a negotiation. And you say, oh, I won the argument. No. If you win the argument, you probably lose the business. So sometimes we intentionally lose a battle, not because we don't have a better point, or because we we're less logical. It's just because we want to take a step back, give our counterpart a space to really express what they need, what they struggle with, and then we'll truly help them in the ways that matter.

00:31:48:08 - 00:32:02:23
Darren
So, get out of your head, try not to win every argument and try to think of it as a reverse Y shape. You're trying to find a common ground. You, even if you lose a battle temporarily, it's your goal to eventually win the war. And we all mutually benefit from this.

00:32:03:01 - 00:32:12:22
Alison
That was very well said. Ben and Darren, thank you so much. This has been very rich with insights and very actionable insights. So I really appreciate you both taking the time.

00:32:13:00 - 00:32:18:18
Ben
Thank you so much for the invite. It's been great chatting and we love everything the CMA does, so we're we're very happy to be part of it.

00:32:18:20 - 00:32:20:14
Darren
Yeah. Thank you so much.

00:32:20:16 - 00:32:22:11
Alison
My pleasure. Enjoy the rest of your day.

00:32:22:15 - 00:32:23:01
Ben
You too.

00:32:23:03 - 00:32:28:09
Darren
Thank you. You too.

00:32:28:11 - 00:32:41:00
Presenter
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