EP13 - Newcomers: Canada’s Key to Prosperity

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, the CEO of the CMA, sits down with Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos Canada and Daniel Bernhard, CEO of the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Together, they dive into their recent newcomer research, highlighting the myths and realities of racial diversity, the skills and talents newcomers bring, and their role in Canada's prosperity.

00:00:00:05 - 00:00:19:13
Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:24:18 - 00:00:53:08
Alison
Canada, long known for our cultural diversity, has been a real beacon of hope and new beginnings for many. But beyond the warm welcomes, newcomers play an absolutely pivotal role in our nation's economic strength, as well as our demographic framework. They're more than just new faces. They're central to Canada's character and also Canada's growth. Consider this. In the last five year period, a stunning 79.9% of Canada's population growth has been attributed to immigration.

00:00:54:01 - 00:01:13:19
Alison
And it's not just about numbers. It's about the fresh perspectives and skills that they bring with them. Over half of the immigrants who have made Canada their home were economic candidates who are well-poised to help grow and advance our country. The dynamic nature of Canada's economy is very closely linked to the fresh talent and entrepreneurship that's brought in by immigrants.

00:01:14:10 - 00:01:39:07
Alison
For our business community and marketers, it's clear. Embracing diversity and innovation of our newest Canadians is key to our country's prosperity. In this episode, I'm thrilled to be joined by Cynthia Pachovski, CEO of Ipsos and Daniel Bernhard, CEO for the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. Ipsos and the Institute for Canadian Citizenship have joined forces to conduct a very robust research study on newcomers to Canada.

00:01:40:01 - 00:02:01:13
Alison
In this discussion, we're going to explore the intriguing research findings that not only reveal the substantial contributions that newcomers bring to Canada's growth, but also some of the challenges that they face and the insights that can help revolutionize how we as marketers and citizens connect with and support this dynamic demographic. So welcome, Cynthia and Daniel.

00:02:01:23 - 00:02:02:16
Daniel
Thanks for having me.

00:02:03:05 - 00:02:03:20
Cynthia
Hello. Hi.

00:02:04:12 - 00:02:15:07
Alison
So I'd like to start by having you share how newcomers contribute to Canada's population and economic growth. It would also be great to hear what impact the recent policy changes may have on these contributions.

00:02:15:21 - 00:02:38:23
Daniel
Immigrants are, as you know, essential to Canada's future. But actually, I want to also talk before I do that about Canada's past. Canada's been an immigrant nation since that since the very beginning, before Europeans came here, there was lots of migration among Indigenous people from place to place, traveling and having to integrate into communities where they would arrive and abide by those laws. Afterwards were welcomed,

00:02:38:23 - 00:02:59:13
Daniel
Europeans were welcomed here by Indigenous people, and the idea of Canada perpetually has been that there's more than enough to go around. It's a bountiful land and that you can come here and not be a renter, so to speak, but an owner of our society, not just a resident but a citizen. It's one of the things that distinguishes Canada from a place like Dubai, for example, where there's a huge foreign-born population.

00:02:59:18 - 00:03:20:20
Daniel
They'll just never be owners of that society. You know, in Canada, you can be. And so immigrants continue to play an incredibly important role in Canadian life and the economy. We're talking about 80% of population growth, as you mentioned, over 100% of labour force growth in many cases. And a key driver of innovation, bringing with them ideas and perspectives from around the world.

00:03:21:02 - 00:03:38:16
Daniel
The current policy changes that you talked about, well, I think what we see now is that Canada is beginning to turn its back towards immigrants. And at the same time, we see immigrants turning their back towards Canada. We can talk about that a little bit more if you like. But more and more, whether it's housing, health care, the education system,

00:03:38:16 - 00:04:07:22
Daniel
Now in post-secondary education, it seems as though immigration is a key variable or axis in any of these policy discussions from a labor supply or, you know, supposed over abundance of demand for these services. We can talk about why those things aren't true if you want. But immigration is becoming a more and more important issue. And we believed really that if an issue this important can't just be managed on a whim, it needs to be managed based on data and based on the contributions of the many tens of thousands of newcomers themselves.

00:04:08:03 - 00:04:20:20
Daniel
So many people purport to speak for them, and we decided through this partnership that they could be able to speak for themselves. So it's a central issue in Canada and we wanted to make sure there was really good sound data for policymakers and business leaders alike and to be able to adapt and contribute.

00:04:21:22 - 00:04:30:05
Alison
I'd love you to do some myth busting  and help us really understand the important role and how some of the things that are in the press really aren't true.

00:04:31:13 - 00:04:57:00
Cynthia
So, interestingly, around the housing crisis, there is a sort of a tension here in the sense that the rising immigration is seen as a certain main reason for the housing crisis and most of the newcomers actually suffer from it at the same time. So it's not just on one situation. On one end, it's actually share the problem.

00:04:57:09 - 00:05:11:12
Cynthia
68% of immigrants say that it's the first problem or challenge they are facing when they arrived in Canada and even 86% of them say that the situation is worse than they expected on the matter.

00:05:11:20 - 00:05:32:01
Daniel
And so what does this mean? This means that if Canada's dependent on immigrants for economic growth, social vitality and renewal, and all other manner of benefits, we need to stop just thinking about how many immigrants we quote, let in and permit, as though their situation in their home countries is so bad and everything in Canada is so good that the only question is how wide to open the door.

00:05:32:08 - 00:05:50:11
Daniel
And what we're seeing is that actually people are coming here and saying, I don't know if I can make it here and they're leaving. And with them go talents and ideas and prosperity and potential. And so one of the things that we really wanted to do is clarify who immigrants are in this study. And that's something that's interesting for policymakers, but also for marketers and business leaders alike.

00:05:50:16 - 00:06:05:15
Daniel
It's the only growing segment of the consumer economy and understanding them, I think, will be very beneficial not only in providing better service and meaning in the marketplace, as is probably a phrase that gets thrown around a lot on this podcast, but also for being a contributor to a positive life in the national interest.

00:06:06:18 - 00:06:11:22
Alison
Daniel, I'd love to have you share with our listeners your definition of immigrants that were used for the study.

00:06:12:03 - 00:06:34:12
Daniel
So the immigrants in this study are members of our Canoo Access Pass, this is an app that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship operates that gives people in their first five years of permanent residency free access to over 2000 of Canada's best culture and nature experiences, discounts with Air Canada, Via rail, pro sports, wine tours, ziplining, whale watching, you name it,

00:06:34:12 - 00:06:58:06
Daniel
We got it. And the idea is to make the decision to move to Canada sticking and irreversible that people have a great time here, believe in this place, buy into it, become citizens and contribute for the long haul as Canadians. And so we have served over 400,000 people with this. Historically, there are about 250,000 people who are using it today, and they are the subjects effectively of this, of this research.

00:06:58:06 - 00:07:17:21
Daniel
They come from all walks of life, all parts of Canada, and they are quite representative of immigrants themselves. They're younger than the Canadian population in general. They're better educated than the Canadian population in general. They come from very, very high future income potential, and they're quite optimistic and they're looking to make their way. So it's it's a really fascinating audience in a mode of discovery.

00:07:18:06 - 00:07:29:08
Daniel
And they have been actually very, very forthcoming and eager to share their perspectives about how Canada can serve them better so that they, in turn, can make future contributions to Canada that are more valuable and enduring.

00:07:29:08 - 00:07:57:03
Cynthia
And I would add that by this medium of having access to new Canadians, we are already at the, in the moment, at the perfect timing to be the most representative possible of immigrants because they are being captured precisely when they become citizens. So that's another very positive facts of the approach so that we have the best coverage possible of immigrants.

00:07:58:06 - 00:08:09:03
Alison
That's great, Cynthia. I'd love to build on that. Given the importance of newcomers in Canada's growth, I know our listeners will be very interested to hear about the new research you collaborated on and how your two organizations came together.

00:08:10:04 - 00:08:37:11
Cynthia
And Ipsos We have been working on this audience, immigrants and newcomers for a while. We have a lot of clients that we have that the requirements within the project and the results that we do. We ourselves have a community online, community offering newcomers where it's more a quality approach. And the big challenge that we have in market research in general is the ability to reach to

00:08:37:11 - 00:09:10:09
Cynthia
Newcomers at scale, right? Because there is a lot of granularity, as you can imagine, because of the cultural background differences, because of the origins, the reason why you are coming to Canada, it's so diverse in nature that you need massive samples, if you want, of newcomers, to be able to understand what is at stake. And these granularity could only be a match with such a solution that the app and the members that the ICC has at their disposal.

00:09:10:10 - 00:09:27:13
Cynthia
So it was kind of the meeting of the best world in this, and that's a market research founder and our already strong knowledge of newcomers and the ICC expertise and, and a pool of newcomers at their disposal.

00:09:28:02 - 00:09:56:14
Daniel
You know and for us, I mean we had this this asset I suppose you can say this this audience, and we were increasingly frustrated by the clear lack of understanding in corporate Canada about who these people are and what they want. And so, for example, you know, there's a trend in advertising, as in the arts and in many other domains, to sort of fetishize diversity, to think that people who come from India, for example, just want to see Indian things.

00:09:56:14 - 00:10:17:12
Daniel
And you know, that the multi-multi category, as they used to call it, and this was not only, you know, offensive, but also really counterproductive, our research shows that actually 96% of people who use our service are looking to have interactions with people outside of their cultural, ethnic and social group. And so we saw that this group was actually very misunderstood.

00:10:17:20 - 00:10:42:09
Daniel
And Ipsos, as a as a research firm, also seems to have a really strong grasp of the fact that a customer is a whole person. They don't just exist in the marketplace and then go away. They vote, they have political interests, they've got other needs. And so we wanted to reflect that and understand that the stuff you buy and the services you receive and your corporate life as a consumer are huge, huge, huge, huge, huge influences

00:10:42:09 - 00:11:09:03
Daniel
on your experience of life in Canada. That's just how it goes. And if we're not able to put the voices of newcomers into boardrooms, then we're going to really limit our impact and our ability to make Canada an enjoyable place. And so this was really a win win. Their philosophy, their focus on ESG really resonated with us. Cynthia's an immigrant herself, understands this experience really well from a personal perspective, and we wanted to put this asset to work in service of our mission.

00:11:09:03 - 00:11:15:14
Daniel
So it was a really it was a really wonderful partnership that hopefully will bear fruits not just for us, but also for people who participate and subscribe to the study.

00:11:16:04 - 00:11:55:06
Cynthia
And another dimension that making a difference here is your ability to get insights over time. One of the key learning we got from the pre study we did is newcomers are not a static audience and it's the needs and and perception and expectations are evolving, with is actually a pretty short time span. And it's very important to be on top of this evolution and this and these changes to make sure that precisely government and companies can address that at the right time.

00:11:56:06 - 00:12:00:15
Alison
What are some of the most surprising findings that you've uncovered in the Newcomers study so far?

00:12:01:09 - 00:12:30:21
Cynthia
One of the most interesting fact finding is that from a newcomers' perspective, Canada is not necessarily delivering on promise. Immigration is expected to be one of the key drivers of economic growth in Canada. Still, newcomers say that the situation is worse than they expected before coming, for housing, for their financial situation and also professional integration.

00:12:31:10 - 00:12:58:14
Cynthia
So there are a lot of essential aspects at stake when that one of the reason they came to Canada and the situation is not as promising as it was supposed to be. And we have one quote you'll find very interesting to encapsulate, that is, I'm not sure it is worth the money I am losing each year and cannot progress I lack. How and when will I be able to recover from this time gap.

00:12:58:21 - 00:13:08:22
Cynthia
So that promise is high and delivering on that promise is an issue that as a society and as an economy, we need to to address.

00:13:09:09 - 00:13:30:19
Daniel
I found some really interesting things, you know, for example, people's disappointment with Canada seems to grow, not shrink with the time that they're here. In other words, you would think that someone settles in and has a hard go that and then gradually finds their way. But actually, you know, satisfaction with some of the kind of key pillars of of of the corporate scene declines progressively as people get familiar.

00:13:30:19 - 00:13:52:12
Daniel
The more they know, the less they like. There's also some interesting findings, especially around financial services and some other kind of high value sectors where, you know, we see these companies pouring so much money into pre-arrival clients, like trying to get people the first day that they come. But actually there are indications that there are windows of switch-ability resulting from this dissatisfaction

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:12:19
Daniel
much later in the piece that some of these companies haven't seem to realize yet. Instead, they're pouring money into people who are pre-arrival, who may be leaving because they're international students or they're on a temporary visa or they don't get permanent residency. So we've started to also see some sort of key disconnects between the data and that sort of typical practices in the marketplace, that I think have been really have been really fascinating.

00:14:12:19 - 00:14:43:23
Daniel
But the one that just really jumps out to me is people, as Cynthia said, they do feel welcomed by the government, by society, by other Canadians, and the level of dissatisfaction in some of these major categories, which I don't need to name, but I think you can all guess, suggest that there are real great opportunities for companies that want to be a little bit more ambitious and a little bit more effective to win in this category and in so doing, make light the life experience of newcomers in Canada so much better so that they stay, become citizens and contribute for the long term.

00:14:43:23 - 00:14:52:23
Daniel
So there's a lot of opportunity and a lot of zones of opportunity that have been identified just in this formative initial study and in subsequent waves, I think we'll get deeper and deeper into.

00:14:54:09 - 00:15:27:12
Cynthia
Link to that, another very interesting fact is that, you know, we were talking about the fact that it's a very dynamic audience, if I may, or group, and you know, the journey and the immigration stage you are in is everything. So at first the expectations are pretty basic. It's more about price, it's pragmatism, it's effectiveness. In the service you are expecting from companies and the time passes and your level of expectations are growing.

00:15:27:17 - 00:15:51:09
Cynthia
For instance, we have observed that for banking, the satisfaction never are going down from when you arrived until the third year. Let's say it's almost the fourth year of your arrival in Canada. And that's when churn is likely to happen, right? And then we go to another bank, right, to get better, a better service, because your expectation has grown.

00:15:51:09 - 00:16:10:18
Cynthia
You have started to build a life for yourself. You have your assets, certainly back from your country of origin, and the level of expectation is completely different. So adapting to these dynamics is essential for businesses to continue to to succeed with this consumer group.

00:16:11:11 - 00:16:28:09
Alison
Beyond the dissatisfaction, you also mentioned that the situation is insenting newcomers to opt out of Canada, and that's clearly a trajectory that we would want to change. So do you have any initial learning or advice on what we can do to improve the situation for newcomers so that they don't opt out and decide to leave Canada?

00:16:29:03 - 00:16:50:00
Daniel
I'd like to just take a second, if I may, some of your listeners may not be familiar with the extent to which immigrants are opting out of Canada. We published a study at the end of October last year in collaboration with the Conference Board of Canada, called The Leaky Bucket, which actually answered a question that I had for two years that, you know, how many immigrants are staying in Canada and actually the government didn't know.

00:16:50:00 - 00:17:11:03
Daniel
And until we looked into it, no one had bothered to check, which is revealing in and of itself, showed that Canada's immigration retention rate has declined by 31% in recent years. We're talking about, you know, significant changes. It used to take 25 years for 20% of an immigrant cohort to leave the country. Now it takes less than 20 years and that's shrinking

00:17:11:03 - 00:17:38:16
Daniel
considerably. Among certain cohorts, it's even higher. So investor class, entrepreneur class, small and medium business owners, people who are admitted in these categories are almost twice as likely to leave the country within ten years as their counterparts in other immigration categories. So this is humongous. I mean, from a from a consumer segment perspective, it's huge. From a labour force perspective, it's a humongous problem. From a capital investment perspective, it's a huge, huge issue.

00:17:38:22 - 00:17:58:13
Daniel
So I think Canada doesn't necessarily realize that our story of immigrants being people who show up with no English and $5 in their pocket like my parents did, work hard and make their way through and all that kind of stuff. We still tell that story. You know who the contemporary immigrant is? It's Cynthia, who's the CEO of a major corporation of the Canadian outlet.

00:17:58:17 - 00:18:24:18
Daniel
Right? With major global experience. And if she decides that Canada isn't working for her, that's our loss, not hers. And so we need to shift our mindset from immigration being something that we do as an exercise of compassion to something that we do as an exercise of ambition and realize that we are competing with other countries in the world, including the home countries that these people come from, whose economic status has increased dramatically in recent decades.

00:18:25:01 - 00:18:58:19
Daniel
And so, you know, if you're a phone provider in Canada as a telco, I'm just giving an example, you know, you're Bell, you're not just competing against Rogers and Telus, you're competing against the standard of people in India who are able to get way better service for way less money, and that's their expectation that you're competing against. So I think we just need to recognize that as Canada's become more and more selective about who we bring into the country, that the status and quality and characteristics and capabilities of the immigrant population has grown immeasurably, which means that they also are more mobile and they have other options.

00:18:59:01 - 00:19:14:21
Daniel
And if they exercise those options, that's bad for your business from a staffing perspective, it's bad for your business from a consumer perspective, and it's bad for the entire country that needs both your business and the employment market and all of these other things to be humming and growing. Immigration has been the source of that growth and immigrants turn their back on Canada,

00:19:14:21 - 00:19:35:21
Daniel
Canada is the one who pays the price. So that's been the situation. And in terms of winning, in terms of making the situation better, like I said earlier, a better experience in daily consumer life makes a difference. If you get off the phone with your cell phone company and they're ripping you off and charging all kinds of terrible fees and you feel terrible about it, you will say, Why did I come here?

00:19:35:21 - 00:19:56:01
Daniel
This is awful, right? And so it's not just about your consumer experience, but which company you choose. This informs your experience of life in Canada. And I think that companies need to be recognizing that they're having a bigger impact, not just whether they win or lose a customer, but actually whether Canada wins or loses a contributor. It's much bigger than just your business.

00:19:56:13 - 00:20:29:00
Cynthia
Fun fact - to illustrate what Daniel is saying is, when we ask a question about how do you feel treated, if you feel welcome, new Canadians, as well as Canadians by the way, feel very positive about it, but it's relatively less about businesses, how they are treated and welcomed by businesses than any other institutional non-for-profit organization. So it's not negative, but they don't say like we are not welcome, we are not treated well, but relatively less than other instances.

00:20:29:00 - 00:20:51:01
Daniel
And this should be obvious to marketers, right? I mean, you know, marketers don't sell that we have the best widget for less money, right? They sell, they sell existential stuff, they sell belonging, they sell status, they sell sex appeal, they sell whatever. Right. Marketers intuitively should understand that people's relationship with these products are associated with broader satisfaction with life.

00:20:51:08 - 00:21:00:18
Daniel
And what we're seeing is that in this category anyways, people don't seem to totally get it. And that message is getting through to immigrants and it affects the degree to which they think that Canada is a viable choice.

00:21:01:21 - 00:21:21:12
Alison 
So given Canada's cultural mosaic, lots of smart marketers have long embraced multicultural marketing. It might be tempting for some brands to think that their multicultural marketing also addressed newcomers. So it would be really helpful for you to speak to some of the key differences that are really unique to newcomers and how best to reach and market to them.

00:21:22:12 - 00:21:44:03
Daniel
While this Ipsos study doesn't get into that right away, and as Cynthia said before, we're just going to become more and more granular, more and more specific as the study picks up momentum, I can tell you from other research that the Institute for Canadian Citizenship has done ourselves on the same population that, you know, we've learned that there are some major blind spots that marketers have.

00:21:44:08 - 00:22:05:10
Daniel
For example, assuming that people's attachment to their home culture is greater than their desire to integrate into Canadian society. You know, we're a small team. We have 33 people on our staff. They come from 18 different countries. And so we're able to get a pretty strong perspective just in the office. And people say, I didn't want to live in Pakistan anymore.

00:22:05:10 - 00:22:31:09
Daniel
I wanted to move to Canada. And as much as it's great to receive my marketing in Urdu, I speak English very well. I've got a Ph.D. which I wrote in English, and I want to know what life is like here. And so this idea of belonging into the country, of treating newcomers in many cases is like a separate fetishized category, that don't speak the language, that have no cultural awareness and need to be sort of spoon fed in these strangely patronizing ways which people believe,

00:22:31:09 - 00:22:48:19
Daniel
I think, they intention them well, they believe them to just be accommodation or welcoming or flexibility or, you know, whatever you want to use. But actually it sort of disregards what people's experience tends to be, which is they want to come to Canada, They want to do stuff that Canadians do, and they want to be they want to be involved.

00:22:48:19 - 00:23:10:02
Daniel
And so I think that's that's one big difference that we're learning and also that sensitivities like, you know, price and things like that apply even more so to this population that has big expectations about improving their lot in life compared to the typical consumer who of course, wants to make more money and do better, but may have smaller ambitions or smaller expectations of a big jump

00:23:10:09 - 00:23:30:06
Daniel
than someone who's made such a dramatic move as to move country. They're expecting something much more and they're much more price-sensitive. So there's that plus the sort of cultural misunderstanding in the marketing. I think these are two things that our other research have taught us need to be addressed. And this research, that tells us what we don't want to do in this research, I think will start to tell us what we do want to do

00:23:30:10 - 00:23:34:06
Daniel
And that's where I think the main value will be, will be to the subscribers.

00:23:35:10 - 00:24:19:04
Cynthia
Another important fact that can help your point here is the impact and the importance of influencers. Like influencers of newcomers, particularly in the first few years. There is a lot of community building for newcomers and yeah this, not new Canadians that have been there for a while become a source of influence of advice for newcomers and that's more where the community express itself within this group.

00:24:20:03 - 00:24:45:12
Daniel
Anecdotally I'll just add one last thing, which is that I think that newcomers to some extent feel exploited. They feel exploited by landlords, they feel exploited by educational institutions, they feel undervalued by their employers in large respect, and their statistics to bear that out. And to the extent that they just get marketed at, you know, very aggressively and quite transparently, based on their immigration status, I think people get defensive.

00:24:45:12 - 00:25:02:04
Daniel
And one of the main advantages of our Canoo Pass, marketing through it, but also the research that we derive as a result from it, is that we are trusted in a sense because we're giving gifts. We're telling people, you're welcome, you're welcome here, you're in demand here, and we're going to put you up at the front of the line.

00:25:02:04 - 00:25:17:13
Daniel
And so I think that building a trust relationship is also very important. And and we may not be doing that enough. Now, that's not something that our research bears out just yet. You could perhaps make associations, but it's something that we found in our general experience that I think marketers would do well to take to heart.

00:25:18:02 - 00:25:28:04
Alison
So to close off our discussion, I'd love to have you each share one piece of advice for our listeners around what they can do to support and encourage newcomers to Canada.

00:25:29:00 - 00:26:08:00
Cynthia
Now in French, we have a saying that says ********** meaning the advisors are not the ones paying the bills. What I would say is - listen, listen, be open, listen dynamically. Newcomers, as we said, it's a very moving dynamic group, that to make sure every dollar you invest in them, you get the return to investment that you want.

00:26:08:00 - 00:26:22:19
Cynthia
You need to capture the essence of what they need at the moment they need it. That makes it pretty both interesting as marketers to work on, and that's what's going to the most rewarding for you.

00:26:23:13 - 00:26:41:00
Daniel
The other thing I would just emphasize is to remember that when you're investing in a relationship with with a newcomer to Canada, you're not just investing in a new customer. Like when Bell calls me and says, go, you know, come from Rogers or Rogers calls me and says, come from Bell, and we just play this game back and forth.

00:26:41:18 - 00:27:13:17 
Daniel
You're investing in a lifelong relationship with somebody who will associate your brand and their experience with your brand, with how they perceive life in Canada more generally. And so you're doing a huge service to Canada, especially in these fundamental categories, if your customers are satisfied. But more than that, people who are facing discrimination, who are being charged rent too high, who don't know anybody who are having trouble making social networks, they will remember the people who treated them well.

00:27:13:17 - 00:27:37:01
Daniel
And we could do a whole other podcast about brand stories from immigrants that I've heard who say when we came here and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And now we always eat at this restaurant every single time that we go on a road trip, because of that relationship between that restaurant and our immigration journey. You are talking to people at a hugely influential, open minded point in their lives when they're building lifelong brand loyalties in Canada.

00:27:37:16 - 00:27:49:04
Daniel
That's a real opportunity that's different than just winning another switcher. And if you don't realize that, I think it will be to your detriment. So that would be the other thing. These are not just normal customers. This is a lifelong relationship at stake.

00:27:49:12 - 00:28:12:17
Alison
So not surprisingly, this has been an incredibly insight, rich discussion. You have also done a really great job of myth busting and really bringing to light the important role of immigrants to our country, as well as the sophistication and, and who they are and challenged certainly my thinking, and others thinking, and stereotypes to become a lot more broad.

00:28:13:03 - 00:28:28:17
Alison
So huge thank you, Cynthia and Daniel, for a truly great discussion. I'm fascinated to see how the research continues. Would love to have you both back in a few months to share some updates, but thank you both for a really, really great discussion.

00:28:29:00 - 00:28:29:13
Speaker 4
Thank you.

00:28:29:13 - 00:28:33:10
Speaker 3
Thank you.

00:28:33:10 - 00:28:53:20
Speaker 1
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