EP15 - Changing Media with Caroline Gianias

In this episode of CMA Connect, Alison Simpson, CEO of the CMA, welcomes Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects. Alison and Caroline explore how changing media habits, the merging of traditional and digital mediums, and multicultural diversity unite to create new opportunities for marketers in Canada.

00:00:03:06 - 00:00:22:11
Speaker 1
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business themes. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:13 - 00:00:52:18
Alison
With the media landscape evolving so rapidly, Canada's media industry is very much at a turning point, stirring a vital conversation on the media's direction in our country. From the changing media habits of Canadians, streaming and increased digital advertising, to the consolidation of newsrooms, understanding these shifts is absolutely crucial for crafting media plans and messages that resonate. Marketers need to stay agile and informed, since adapting to these dynamic shifts is now more crucial than ever.

00:00:52:19 - 00:01:14:22
Alison
To guide us through this pivotal time, I am absolutely thrilled to have Caroline Gianias, President of Radio Connects, join us today. Caroline is a highly regarded media expert who has worked with local and global clients across every major advertising category. In addition to her role at Radio Connects, Caroline also is the vice president of the World Radio Alliance and chairs the CMA's Media Council.

00:01:15:04 - 00:01:29:17
Alison
Today we delve into how massive shifts in media habits, merging digital with traditional mediums, and Canada's rich cultural diversity create a realm of possibilities for marketers everywhere. Welcome, Caroline. It's really great to have you with me today.

00:01:29:19 - 00:01:35:05
Caroline
Thanks, Alison. It's a pleasure to be here. Hope I have some good insights to share on this lofty topic.

00:01:35:07 - 00:01:46:14
Alison
So to kick things off, I would love to hear how the evolving demographics and cultural diversity within Canada are influencing media consumption habits and advertisers' approach to segmentation.

00:01:46:18 - 00:02:14:13
Caroline
Canada is such a big country. I mean, we're six time zones spread across a massive landscape, with cultural differences, we've got regional differences. We have two official languages, and on top of that, we're layered with this very rich and diverse cultural experience of new Canadians, and what it means to be a new Canadian, as well as just the changing technology that's having an impact on media consumption.

00:02:14:13 - 00:02:43:16
Caroline
So it's a really big question and something that I'm sure advertisers are faced with every day in trying to solve their business challenges and using media as a part of that. Really, the disruption to media consumption has largely been led by technology and the fact that digitization of media, the fact that we're carrying around in our palms, the most powerful computer you could possibly have, that just opens a world of possibilities in terms of consumption.

00:02:43:18 - 00:03:20:05
Caroline
So, you know, all it contributes to is just making that media consumption more fragmented, really. And so how do marketers connect with all of those different touchpoints? Right. That's the big challenge. I mean, the reality of 40 million people is that 80% of us are still living within, you know, 200 kilometres of the United States. Right. So this whole fragmentation of media and media consumption, I mean, a lot of it is still media and cultural influences, political influences, certainly economic influences that are all coming from south of the border.

00:03:20:07 - 00:03:48:23
Caroline
And, you know, for Canada, the challenge in that is how do marketers, especially in global brands, maintain the fact that Canada is a unique and diverse marketplace separate from the United States and we're not the 51st state? And what applies in the United States? While yeah, there'll be similarities, but it still needs to be adapted because, you know, in Canada we have our own media consumption habits that are different and are regionally different as well.

00:03:48:23 - 00:04:18:23
Caroline
And we have two official languages and I think a lot of the times when advertisers are so focused on what does it mean to be multicultural and support new Canadians and the ethnicity and diversity of Canada? Are we in fact ignoring a very big percent of Canada's population that's living in Quebec? That aren't even being addressed? What are we doing to include Quebec in those conversations, which I think often get left off the table when we're talking about Canada being a diverse and multicultural population?

00:04:19:01 - 00:04:38:15
Caroline
Oftentimes, they're not even included in the advertiser's plans. So if we're looking at prioritizing ethnicity, cultural diversity, how do we do that beyond English and French in Canada? And are we even doing the right job in English or French in Canada? Right. So it becomes a very complex question.

00:04:38:17 - 00:05:05:10
Alison
And it can be very easy to be sitting on the other side of the border looking at Canada and seeing how we're alike and really underestimating the crucial and sometimes subtle differences that make marketing in Canada truly unique. In your viewpoint, are the media measurement tools that are available today agile enough to capture the multicultural consumption patterns that are currently happening in Canada, and to do it an accurate way?
 
00:05:05:12 - 00:05:28:02
Caroline
Yeah, it's challenging because, you know, the question always comes down to with measurement, what are you measuring? Are you measuring for insight to improve business outcomes based on understanding consumer, based on understanding media habits? Or are you measuring for currency to transact to purchase that media? So, you know, the two of them, they're very different things and they don't necessarily, are not approached in the same way.

00:05:28:04 - 00:05:51:20
Caroline
Certainly when we're measuring for currency in Canada, we have Numeris. Right. And we have Radio Counts that supports on the radio measurements and they use very disciplined approach. It's, you know, using panels, it's looking at census data, it's extrapolating to population. Of course, in Canada with privacy, we don't speak to ethnicity, we don't speak to other than understanding in terms of the panels of languages spoken at home.

00:05:51:22 - 00:06:16:05
Caroline
But we don't dissect in terms of, you know, am I speaking to a South Asian community? If I am speaking to a South Asian community, what does that look like within the association communities that look on many different looks as well? And quite frankly, there's just not enough people in the country, believe it or not, that we can actually subgroup those into into certain measurement segments and start saying, well, yes, I'm using media to currency against this particular segment.

00:06:16:07 - 00:06:39:09
Caroline
There's just, it's difficult to do that and it's difficult to get around that with privacy. I think you can do that digitally by creating, you know, scenarios of that if people are consuming this content that they're likely from this aspect of a community or certain ethnic group. And that seems easy to do. But I guess the question comes down to what are you going to do with that measurement once you get it?

00:06:39:11 - 00:07:06:15
Caroline
How are you going to use that insight to inform your executions? What are you doing to make that a better user experience? If you're delivering content against that community or that language, is it in the right context? Are you using the right methodology to convey the message? Are you, you know, is it reflecting their communities? So once you start asking questions if you're measuring against certain things, it's like, what are you measuring?

00:07:06:16 - 00:07:29:11
Caroline
How are you measuring it? And what are you going to do with the insight you get with that measurement? And I think in Canada, fundamentally too, it's it's expense sieve to measure. It's very expensive to measure. And the question always becomes who's paying for that measurement? You know, are the advertisers paying for it? Are the agencies paying for it? Are the broadcasters in Canada, the private broadcasters and the CBC?

00:07:29:11 - 00:07:59:18
Caroline
Are they paying for that? Because if you look at some of the vertical tech companies, they are measuring their own users. But, you know, they're all now putting that behind walled gardens, right? You can't necessarily get to that first party data that they're collecting about their user groups. So it's a very difficult question. And I think the challenge also becomes is, as soon as you establish the parameters of measurement, the goalpost has moved in terms of what we're measuring, what technology we're measuring, and it's constantly evolving.

00:07:59:18 - 00:08:21:17
Caroline
So it seems like the measurement is always behind the consumption because people are moving so quickly to adopt two different things. And once you find a way to measure it, they've moved on to something else. But I will say that I don't think from the broadcast perspective in the traditional measurement, if you will, that we give enough credit in terms of some of the solutions.

00:08:21:19 - 00:08:44:11
Caroline
You know, I do have a lot of exposure to global media owners in the broadcast space, and they look to Canada as, you guys are measuring streaming of over the air broadcast, you're measuring, you're using panels, you're looking at different time zones, like we are actually quite advanced in terms of how some measurement is being done. Yet we in Canada don't give ourselves enough credit.

00:08:44:13 - 00:08:53:22
Caroline
You know, actually being at the foreground in some of those measurements that we've done and we actually have. But I don't think we give ourselves enough credit sometimes.

00:08:54:00 - 00:08:59:01
Alison
I think that's true of Canadians on a number of different levels. So I appreciate you shouting that out.

00:08:59:03 - 00:09:00:00
Alison
I also want to point out

00:09:00:05 - 00:09:21:17
Alison
Something you talked about earlier. We have a lot of listeners and members that are part of multinational businesses and representing the brand in Canada. So what strategy should multinational marketers employ to harness the full potential of the Canadian media scene? And it would be great to hear what makes Canada unique and why should media investment here be more of a priority?

00:09:21:17 - 00:09:30:06
Alison
Because as I mentioned earlier, it's easy to you're sitting in the States in particular to look across the border and see how we're alike and underestimate the important differences we have.

00:09:30:08 - 00:09:55:23
Caroline
The challenges is to ensure that the budgets reflect the job at hand, especially in certain categories. Canada, the media has to work so much harder because the trade dollars relative to what some advertisers are putting in the marketing budget to support their trade initiatives is certainly less than what it is in other markets. So our media has to work that much harder to support trade activity.

00:09:55:23 - 00:10:14:14
Caroline
So I think, it's really the challenge has always been, you know, the budget for Canada shouldn't just be a default to it's X percent of what you're doing in the United States. That's, you know, you can't do that because our media budgets have to work harder in terms of connecting with Canadians. We have that fragmentation to deal with.

00:10:14:16 - 00:10:41:14
Caroline
We have dual languages to start off before we even talk about doing any kind of ethnic centric or ethnic media placement. We have to address that. We have two official languages, two media ecosystems that support English and French. So that needs to have a seat at the table to have those discussions, because don't just automatically assume it's the budget to satisfy Canada is a percent of the US budget.

00:10:41:16 - 00:11:16:16
Caroline
You have to look at what the business challenges are, what the media ecosystem looks like and what it's going to do to get that job done. And it will involve a percentage of English in Canada, and that's just a reality. You can't ignore the Quebec market, as a lot of marketers will tend to do. And I think the other thing is to look at the fact of the role of different media has, even in a world of multiculturalism and new Canadians coming into Canada. At what point do marketers sit back and say, you're no longer new Canadian when? You've been here five years, three years, ten years, 20 years?

00:11:16:18 - 00:11:38:21
Caroline
Are we talking about new Canadians and what's the business objective to meet new Canadians? It might be completely different. You know, there's not just media challenges that we have with trying to meet new Canadians or a diverse multicultural community. It's the expectations of the services that they're going to be getting. You know, a lot of sticker shock when people come to Canada, right?

00:11:38:22 - 00:11:58:06
Caroline
It's like you think the land of milk and honey, and it's really expensive cell phone plans. It's, you know, cost of living is really high. Cost of rent and ownership and all sorts of things are really high. And eventually those things do play into media usage because, you know, you're not going to have that many streaming services because they're expensive.

00:11:58:06 - 00:12:26:16
Caroline
And you know local media may become the touchpoint because it's free for the most part, right? You can get in and listen to radio anywhere, any time. You don't have to pay for that service. With basic cable, you can turn on TV and find out what's happening. And so I think the challenge for multinational marketers is really to understand what the Canadian landscape looks like and the fact that it's English and it's French, and that just looking at a percent of the US budget isn't just going to get the job done.

00:12:26:16 - 00:12:33:22
Caroline
You've got to really understand what it is you need to achieve. And the cost of media in Canada, it's not it's not cheap, right? It's not cheap.

00:12:34:00 - 00:12:47:05
Alison
With the rise of streaming platforms and consumers shift to new media habits, what are the key strategies that traditional radio broadcasters and media platforms in Canada are implementing to remain relevant and competitive?

00:12:47:07 - 00:13:09:18
Caroline
Well, you know, it's interesting. I think, you know, people think streaming, and I'll talk to the audio space because obviously it's where I'm immersed in the most is that I think there's a real disconnect in terms of understanding what that actually means, because really in terms of audio, what's happening in that streaming landscape, is that really streaming is a replacement of our personal music libraries, right?

00:13:09:20 - 00:13:29:17
Caroline
You know, unless you're a real audiophile and, you know, my 30 year old, 31 year old son is, he has LPs, is that most people, I would say most people, a selection of Canadians are choosing to rent their music libraries versus owning their music libraries. Right. And that's giving the rise to what we're seeing in terms of streaming.

00:13:29:18 - 00:13:52:10
Caroline
Because previously when we would look at, you know, album sales, to determine, you know, the top, CHUM's top list, right? It's how many records sold, you know, what the radio stations were playing and now it's coming down to streaming because we could physically count that now, whereas before we weren't. So all that personal music time being spent with physical is now being streamed.

00:13:52:12 - 00:14:22:21
Caroline
But it's not a new phenomenon quite frankly. Personal music has always been in existence. It's just now that it's being streamed on a device as opposed to being played on your record player or your MP3 player or your boombox. So I think there is a a sense of certainly with people in the industry who think that Canadians aren't listening to terrestrial radio anymore because they're streaming, when in actual fact, you know, the reach of radio has been pretty consistent forever.

00:14:22:23 - 00:14:49:19
Caroline
And most of the streaming that's being done by those Canadians who are streaming is largely noncommercial. It's to their personal music libraries. Because if you actually look at the free online music streaming services or you look at even podcasting, like collectively the two of them, I think what podcasting is maybe 29%, and free music streaming is like maybe 8% of all of the audio listening out there.

00:14:50:00 - 00:15:30:11
Caroline
Whereas like radio, if you look at PPM, it's at 84%. That's a very big difference. And even when you compare it to the Amazon Prime, the Apple Music, YouTube, it's, you're still looking at terrestrial radio being one and a half, two times greater in terms of reach of any of those platforms. So, you know, I think the adaptation that broadcasters are have, is that it's more so that Canadian to really rediscovering the fact that radio was the original mobile medium, right, the transistor radio, and now you've got it on your phone. So your phone has become your transistor radio and so people are able to take that that radio experience with them wherever they're going

00:15:30:13 - 00:15:54:09
Caroline
because it's a different experience, right? People lean into radio, they're connecting and want to know what's going on in the community. And the further out you get from the major urban centres, the more important those connections become to local community. And I think that's true whether you're new Canadian, who wants to connect with their new environment, they're learning the language, they're consuming, you know, television and radio because they're improving their English.

00:15:54:11 - 00:16:19:23
Caroline
So I think, you know, the fact is that we in the industry, I think, have a different perception because we tend to be bigger streamers in general. We tend to have more streaming subscriptions than the average Canadian. We tend to spend more time with streaming and on demand platforms than average Canadians. And I think that often colours our perception of what consumers are doing.

00:16:20:01 - 00:16:41:21
Caroline
And I go back to, ThinkTV did a great survey with Ipsos and it kind of level sets those of us who work in marketing, those who work in advertising, think about what Canadians are doing and there's such a difference in terms of what our perceptions of media consumption of the average Canadian is our own consumption versus what we think they're doing.

00:16:41:21 - 00:17:07:00
Caroline
And you see such a disconnect. And I think the challenge for marketers and those advising their clients is, we're not the average consumer, we're not the average media consumption either. And so we really need to kind of take a step back and really focus on, you know, what Joe or Jill or, you know, average consumer X is doing relative to what we're doing because we're not like everybody else.

00:17:07:02 - 00:17:26:15
Caroline
And we need to remember that when we're developing our advertising strategies, our behaviours, our consumption should never be the baseline of what we're doing. And insights, information, data points about average consumers and their consumer journey should always be the focus point because it's so different from ours.

00:17:26:17 - 00:17:38:01
Alison
That's such an important reminder that you've given us, Caroline, to not assume that how we engage with media, how we live our lives, it's usually fundamentally different from the quote unquote average Canadian.

00:17:38:03 - 00:17:39:10
Caroline
Hugely different.

00:17:39:12 - 00:17:46:03
Alison
Well, your stat around 84% of radio is probably a surprising stat for a lot of our listeners as well.

00:17:46:05 - 00:18:07:22
Caroline
I think it is. And I think that they forget, you know, especially I think another interesting thing is that those of us who work in urban centres, even, you know, post-COVID, we did a survey not too long ago with Signal Hills through Maru Canada, just asking people, you know, who were in vehicles yesterday, because obviously radio is a very important part of the consumer journey in car.

00:18:08:00 - 00:18:41:00
Caroline
And, you know, on average, 44% of Canadians were in vehicles yesterday versus 6% were in transit. So the reality is Canadians are very much car drivers and vehicle drivers as opposed to transit takers. And if you're trying to connect with consumers on the last mile about the purchase, being in the car is a big part of that. Right. And once you strip out all the noise of where you can actually meet a consumer with an ad message, like radio's 92% of that, because muscle memory, you get in your car and you turn it on. The radio comes on automatically, right?

00:18:41:05 - 00:19:05:21
Caroline
Even in connected cars, whether you're an Android or Wi-Fi, Apple CarPlay, any of those different technologies, the time spent with ad supported or the amount of people listening to ad supported radio, the numbers are consistent it's above 90%, whether you have Android auto in the car or not because that connection to live radio, it's a leaned in experience and people rely on it.

00:19:05:23 - 00:19:23:18
Caroline
And I think those of us in marketing who are not in cars, who rely on transit and think that everybody connects to their apps the minute they get in the car, that's you know, that's just not the reality out there. Right. And that's a big audience that we're missing if we're not focused on that.

00:19:23:20 - 00:19:38:23
Alison
That's a great point. I'm sure some of our listeners are wondering if there's a demographic part of radio listening. Have you noticed in any of your research whether our younger Canadians as engaged with radio as we might be?

00:19:39:01 - 00:19:56:01
Caroline
Well, you know, it's funny, we did just look at some research recently, and nobody wants to hear this, but the older you get, the more you consume. That's surprising. I remember I was at an agency thing not too long ago and I did have to counsel, I hate to tell you this, but you do turn into your parents as you get older.

00:19:56:03 - 00:20:15:09 
Caroline
You know, when you start when you move along from being a party of one, hopping on the subway or working remotely, to suddenly being in a car, driving through the drive through because, you know, doing school run and you got to run out for groceries or you ran out of milk, you know, not everything comes by a delivery service.

00:20:15:11 - 00:20:46:18
Caroline
Uber eats or, you know, your grocery runs to your door. And, you know, radio does connect with more people as your life stages change. But I think, you know, it's interesting, I think people are surprised that even when you look at the younger demographics of 18 to 34 and you compare that with some of the digital platforms like Facebook and YouTube and, radio still connects with more of them than connects with YouTube or Facebook or TikTok or Instagram.

00:20:46:19 - 00:21:04:04
Caroline
When it comes to 18 to 34s, like the reach of radio is still higher than those other media, which I think is surprising to a lot of people. The younger you are, the more exposure to radio, the more likely you are to have or to take some sort of action after hearing an ad, which we know is pretty surprising for people as well.

00:21:04:06 - 00:21:08:13
Caroline
You know, but that came out in a recent study, and all of this is available on our Radio Connects website.

00:21:08:15 - 00:21:19:07
Alison
Caroline, this has been wonderful conversation. I know you've got a busy day ahead, but before I close off our discussion, I would love to have you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners.

00:21:19:09 - 00:21:36:16
Caroline
I guess it goes back to the we in the industry, we're a unique breed and our media behaviours are not like everyone else's. And I think we, as as you go through the media journey in the consumer journey and, you're looking to if I'm going to spend $1 an hour in media, where am I going to spend it?

00:21:36:18 - 00:21:58:02
Caroline
You know, go back to the the business challenge at hand. Look at the consumer journey, not your media journey, but the consumer journey of the person that you're trying to connect with and ensure that you've covered all the touch points that are the most relevant and that the messaging you're delivering, it's in a context that makes sense for the person receiving the message.

00:21:58:04 - 00:22:23:03
Caroline
Because I think, Canada, we're a vast landscape, fragmented media universe, media has its challenges in our marketplace to connect with English, French, multicultural, and it's always hard to determine where to spend that first dollar. So always go back to what the business challenge is at hand and what's the most effective medium you can use to resolve those business challenges.

00:22:23:05 - 00:22:33:23
Alison
Great advice. Caroline, thank you so much for your time today and for a  really great, insightful conversation.

00:22:34:01 - 00:22:45:18
Speaker 1
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