EP19 - Leo Burnett's Vision for HumanKind, with Ben Tarr, and Tahir Ahmad

In this episode of CMA Connect, CMA's CEO Alison Simpson sits down with Ben Tarr, President, and Tahir Ahmad, Chief Strategy Officer of Leo Burnett Group Canada, to explore the groundbreaking Humankind Study. Together, they unpack the study's revelations, challenge assumptions, and offer invaluable wisdom to navigate the evolving landscape.

00:00:00:17 - 00:00:22:06
Presenter
Welcome to CMA Connect, Canada's marketing podcast, where industry experts discuss how marketers must manage the tectonic shifts that will change how brands and businesses are built for tomorrow, while also delivering on today's business needs. With your host, CMA CEO Alison Simpson.

00:00:22:08 - 00:00:43:08
Alison
In today's episode, we're going behind the scenes of a highly insightful and much talked about Canadian marketing research study,  the HumanKind Study from Leo Burnett. Since it launched in Canada just a few short years ago, this annual report has gained really strong momentum and secured coverage from major media outlets and generated quite a bit of buzz across the industry for its look into the minds of Canadian consumers.

00:00:43:10 - 00:01:05:02
Alison
It's my pleasure today to introduce the president of Leo Burnett Group in Canada, Ben Tarr, alongside their chief strategy officer, Tahir Ahmad, who helped bring the HumanKind Study to life. They're going to share the origin story of how this great initiative went from just an idea to now becoming a highly anticipated flagship report. It's also now expanded into new markets, including the US.

00:01:05:04 - 00:01:40:09
Alison
We'll also explore key milestones, some of the unexpected benefits, and their vision for the study's future as it continues to gain traction. Perhaps most importantly, Ben and Tahir will reveal some of this year's most compelling insights, that are challenging assumptions, and conventional wisdom about everything from the evolving Canadian mindset to demographic nuances across our country. With the newly added U.S. data, we're also going to dive into some of the fascinating cross-border comparisons and discuss how Canadian brands can activate against these human-centric insights through authentic, purpose-driven marketing that can really resonate.

00:01:40:11 - 00:01:42:18
Alison
So, Ben and Tahir, it's a pleasure to welcome you today.

00:01:42:20 - 00:01:45:18
Ben
Thank you for having us, Alison. Great to be here.

00:01:45:20 - 00:01:57:02
Alison
Now, the HumanKind study has gained impressive momentum since its beginning a few years ago in Canada. I'd love you to share the origin story behind what motivated Leo Burnett to embark on this annual initiative.

00:01:57:04 - 00:02:19:14
Ben
We came together as a new leadership team about five years ago, and we sat down and looked at the changing landscape of the industry and what was happening here in Canada and the seismic shifts that were happening for us as what we were known as an advertising agency. And we really looked inward, what it was we truly did for clients using the power of creativity to transform human behaviour.

00:02:19:16 - 00:02:50:03
Ben
And so we went through a period of, you know, self-reflection, looking at what we've been doing w  ell, spent time with our clients to understand where our true value lay. And what we found was it was really beyond advertising, you know, but it really is about thinking of new experiences for brands, new products or service initiatives. And so we decided to reposition from an advertising agency to what we call creative consultancy, where we're delivering value to our clients through the power of creativity.

00:02:50:05 - 00:03:18:17
Ben
And one of the things that we really wanted to stand tall on was, comes from a quote actually from Leo Burnett, which is - what helps people, helps business. And thanks to Tahir and his team, we've always had a really robust strategic centre of excellence here. But one thing that we all felt was missing was, not just from our agency, from Canada as well, was a deeper understanding of Canadians, who they are, how they're feeling, how Canada is evolving.

00:03:18:19 - 00:03:38:08
Ben
Because as many marketers will know, we are often reliant on data from the U.S. and we always think about ourselves as, well we're similar to the U.S., so we can just borrow from them. We felt like it was something that that wouldn't just help clients, but it would also prove out the fact that we were more of a creative consultancy.

00:03:38:08 - 00:03:41:16
Ben
So that's where the idea stemmed from.

00:03:41:18 - 00:04:04:14
Tahir
I think for, as strategists, I would just say selfishly, it was to Ben's point, it was just a constant struggle to get Canadian insights and intelligence. And so when you think about how we were approaching every brief and every client and doing bespoke research for each and every one of them to try and understand ways that brands can help solve people's problems.

00:04:04:14 - 00:04:27:04
Tahir
It became quite obvious to us that the country and the industry as a whole benefit from something that was, went deeper across the country and was something that we could run every year. Year one, it was not intended to be a Covid report. And so when we when we first had this idea, which truthfully started as, wouldn't it be really interesting to know what the top ten human problems are in Canada?

00:04:27:05 - 00:04:46:08
Tahir
How do you even boil that ocean that, that just that was the initial sort of challenge and thought we just sort of sat around a room and said, we have a ton of concerns and issues and tensions and problems and so on. Imagine if you could get that into a top six, top eight, top ten list. And so we set out to do that through our research.

00:04:46:08 - 00:05:18:18
Tahir
And then Covid took over. And so it very much became a Covid report, represent the state of people's minds and well-being in Canada at that time. But I'm proud that it's it's now continued on and is now in its third edition. And it's gotten bigger and better, as you mentioned, Alison, off the top, that we've added a massive market in the U.S. and we've continued to fine tune our research methodology to just continue to really get into and under the skin and into the heads of Canadians.

00:05:18:20 - 00:05:43:09
Ben
I think that's truly been the thing that we've been involved in more and more is, how can brands take and play an active role in solving these problems. In identifying the problems that Canadians are facing, we then have massive opportunities for brands to take a leadership position in solving some of those problems. So it just comes back to that amazing quote of what's good for people is good for business.

00:05:43:09 - 00:05:48:16
Ben
And if we can truly be there to help people, then the business is going to succeed.

00:05:48:18 - 00:06:04:07
Alison
So now I'd like you to share what were some of the most surprising and noteworthy findings in this year's Canadian report, and how do this year's insights compare to the first two years of your study, especially when we consider the evolving economy and post-pandemic environment?

00:06:04:09 - 00:06:30:02
Tahir
What I found surprising was the shift in people's mindset. And in so far as, no longer accepting or resigned to the status quo of their lives. So if we look at the previous years, and again, as I mentioned, we launched on the heart of Covid. There was a lot of angst. There was a lot of vulnerability. People felt as though they were dealing with something that was quite existential.

00:06:30:07 - 00:06:54:08
Tahir
And then the second edition, it was very much, we've come out of this, but, is this the best life's going to get? I thought everything would change. We put Covid behind us. We're all back together. Shouldn't my life be great? Actually, people were staring at a looming recession and a housing crisis and a simmering war globally. And so it just felt as though people were just like, maybe I'll just take my hand off the wheel of life and just sort of see where this goes.

00:06:54:10 - 00:07:11:19
Tahir
Which at the time did feel a little dire. I think this year what we saw is this almost defiance from Canadians. There are fed up, no longer willing to just give up on life. And in fact, they were saying, no, life can be better. And I want the life that I thought I was supposed to have or that I was promised.

00:07:11:19 - 00:07:37:11
Tahir
I want that now. And so it gave us actually quite a bit of energy to see that it's not a nation full of wallowers and pessimists. Yes, in some ways. And to Ben's point, there's data that supports this that people are hanging on by the skin of their teeth in some instances, but at the same time that they feel more resilient and more, I would say, empowered to want to make life better for themselves and for others.

00:07:37:11 - 00:07:42:07
Tahir
So that was, I think, a little surprising, but also really encouraging. 

00:07:42:10 - 00:08:06:08
Ben
For me, it was staggering how lonely the country feels, at a time where we're well beyond lockdown and being isolated, and that feeling of isolation where we're all, what feels like we are back together, we're celebrating things together. We're playing together, we're out having fun together. It was staggering, some of the stats that came back in terms of how lonely people are feeling.

00:08:06:10 - 00:08:30:07
Ben
And what was really surprising was it was hitting the younger generations more than any generation. So Gen Z and millennials, I think the stat was like 72% feeling lonely some of the time. And that's that's a frightening position for us to be in if we think about the next generations of this country and how they're engaging in society every day to feel lonely some of the time,

00:08:30:07 - 00:08:53:13
Ben
for three quarters of millennials, to feel lonely some of the time is is a worrying facet. So I think for me that was a real shock. And also, as a parent to a Gen Z and a little younger, it was about, gosh, what should I be doing as a parent? What brands are there out there that are helping parents like me help our kids re-engage in life, in society and friendships?

00:08:53:14 - 00:08:57:06
Ben
So that was like a massive shock for me, was loneliness.

00:08:57:08 - 00:09:20:22
Tahir
That was what was new from last year to this year. So there was some persistent themes, and then there were a couple new ones and young and lonely was by far the biggest concern that we saw. Finances and financial well-being, it was up there as well, but in terms of just the stats that really jumped out at you as stark and demanding of attention.

00:09:21:00 - 00:09:40:07
Tahir
So to Ben's point, I mean, 77% of Gen Z feels that loneliness. And again, that's a massive number. And first you kind of go, well, how is that possible? And it seems like they're online all the time with one another. And I think that that goes hand-in-hand with another big issue, which is, you know, screens being a crutch.

00:09:40:09 - 00:10:05:00
Tahir
And so all of that is contributing to what maybe on the surface, seems as though this is the most hyper-connected generation ever. But the truth is, they admit that because of that excessive screen time, because of that, almost self isolation, which again, part of that was forced upon them. But now that they're out of restrictions, you know, the truth is they admit to feeling awkward around one another.

00:10:05:00 - 00:10:31:23
Tahir
They admit to not knowing what to say when they are together socially. They admit to knowing that being more social would help their well-being, but they don't have the energy to be more social. And they also, they mentioned that it's just hard to find and make new friends. Both Ben and I have teenagers, and when you look at them and just go, isn't this the time in your life when that just comes very naturally and you just organically hang around one another?

00:10:32:00 - 00:10:35:19
Tahir
It really just reminds us that they need help.

00:10:35:21 - 00:10:58:05
Alison
So I certainly share your surprise of that. And the fact that, post-pandemic it's actually gotten worse,, makes it a massive issue that we want to and really need to address. Thanks Tahir for sharing some of the reasons behind it. And what do you think we can do with 77% of our younger Canadians feeling lonely and wanting to reengage, but not really knowing how to ?

00:10:58:06 - 00:11:01:09
Alison
What can we do to support them on that journey?

00:11:01:11 - 00:11:26:10
Tahir
We talk about what brands can do. In some cases, it's as simple as talking about it. I mean, you know, Bell does a really good job of that as well. And just let's talk. And one of the things that we heard in the groups is that they're giving brands permission to talk about loneliness, and that's always an interesting conversation to have with people, which is like, do brands have the right or the permission to even play in some of these issues?

00:11:26:10 - 00:11:51:14
Tahir
Right. Because sometimes it just feels it could be self-serving in this particular case. And again, with the numbers this high and young people raising their hand saying, no, we need help. We need people to enable and facilitate togetherness through saying yes. Brands have permission to talk about this and actually help do something about it. We outlined in the report, you know, again thought-starters ways in for brands to help solve this.

00:11:51:16 - 00:12:18:09
Tahir
One of these ways is to actually just help facilitate community coming together. You know, some interesting examples of brands that are doing that, in particular, Hershey's has one, I think it's called the Heartwarming program, where they're actually trying to teach young people social skills, so that when they do come back together, they have more confidence and they have more ability to sort of mix and engage with one another socially.

00:12:18:09 - 00:12:27:10
Tahir
So I think there's just some interesting ways that brands are helping to do this. And I think a big part of it just starts with acknowledging it and talking about it.

00:12:27:12 - 00:12:49:12
Ben
Yeah, I'd also say from our perspective, you know, when we look at national brands that have national footprints, retail and the shape of retail has been changing so much, the shape of what retail bricks and mortar stands for these days is very different to what it stood for in the past. You look at the proliferation of e-com and direct to home and D2C models.

00:12:49:12 - 00:13:13:14
Ben
So it is also a chance for brands to rethink the physical space. You think about some of the sporting brands that bring people together for run rooms and kind of workout clubs, things like that. It is about how can we actually physically create a sense of community. I do think as a massive opportunity for national brands with big retail footprints to physically bring people together and get people off online.

00:13:13:14 - 00:13:16:22
Ben
And the screens, which we've heard a lot of so...

00:13:17:00 - 00:13:34:20
Alison
The other thing you mentioned that was encouraging is after the first two years of the studies, Canadians were sort of feeling beaten down and like they'd really lost a lot of control. Thankfully this year you're started to see us re-emerge and say, you know what, the heck with this, we're going to take control and we're going to make sure that we're empowered. So I'd love you to talk more about how you saw that come out in the study.

00:13:34:20 - 00:13:41:07
Alison
And opportunities for brands to leverage that emerging insight for Canadian consumers.

00:13:41:09 - 00:14:10:19
Tahir
Initially, just, you know, when we asked them questions about, you know, just being fearful of of, you know, what's to come or hardships to come. Just a sense of feeling more vulnerable. We saw that drop. So there is a population that is feeling more purposeful as well as less vulnerable and concerned about what they don't know what might come. We heard in the groups, is that coming out of what they've lived through, almost feels like they've faced some of the worst events that they're going to ever face.

00:14:10:19 - 00:14:39:20
Tahir
But also they're not naive to think that this might not occur again. So it's almost like, now that we've gone through this and come out the other side, and we expect that there is going to be another event, another crisis, another epidemic that's going to hit us down the road, there's less of this fear. So that's what we found was interesting was that it doesn't mean that they are confident per se, but it demonstrated that they weren't afraid of what's to come, and they felt like they were taking life more head on, which was interesting.

00:14:39:22 - 00:15:05:10
Tahir
Now, when you see that evidence in something like the environment. So that was still a big concern for Canadians, was the plight of the environment. But in previous years, again, we saw high stats around Earth as past the point of saving. And I think if my memory serves correctly, last year it was in and around 65% people thought that across the board, which again is very stark, it kind of just says hands off.

00:15:05:12 - 00:15:26:05
Tahir
You know, what's going to happen is going to happen. There's nothing else we can do. We're just basically cruising toward our demise, and what we saw this year was a drop of, I think, approximately 32 points in that stat, to the point where, like more people now believe that the environment is in their hands and they can do something about it.

00:15:26:05 - 00:15:48:00
Tahir
So again, that's just, again, one small example of how people have decided they're no longer resigned to just what will happen, will happen. They're trying to do something about it, which again, is really encouraging, and it's again a door open for brands to help spark what is already, you know, the right mindset and energy there to make change.

00:15:48:02 - 00:16:07:17
Alison
So this year's study includes some data from the U.S. market for the very first time, so that can allow for some pretty interesting comparisons between Canadian and American consumers that I absolutely know our listeners will be intrigued by. So I'd love to understand some of the similarities or differences that jumped out at the two of you when you were looking at the results across North America.

00:16:07:19 - 00:16:17:11
Alison
And as, are there any things that are truly unique when it comes to Canadian consumer mindsets and attitudes that were reinforced when you compare us to our American neighbours?

00:16:17:13 - 00:16:47:20
Tahir
So loneliness definitely was a massive Canadian concern. So in America, there is concern that Gen Z is being affected by loneliness. It was part of a overall concern about young people's well-being. So that would include physical health, mental health. Loneliness was one aspect of that. I think for us that we saw that, like the young and the lonely being such a big problem, almost epidemic levels here in Canada, as it is in other countries around the world.

00:16:47:20 - 00:17:09:18
Tahir
I think that one stood out. Interestingly, also, AI was a theme that we saw in Canada that did not bubble up in the U.S. In Canada, we certainly saw that people were against greater transparency over where AI is going, but I think more importantly that they share the benefits of it. And so we didn't see that as much in the U.S.

00:17:09:20 - 00:17:36:09
Tahir
We did see the financial strains that everyone's living through here in Canada was similar in the U.S. as well. So there's real concern. And interestingly, we choose these statements intentionally just to try and get a sense for the gravity of the situation. And so in both countries across the border, there's a sense that financially, people are hanging on by the skin of teeth and that no matter how hard they work, which I think again, very much the American way, if you work, you can achieve your dreams.

00:17:36:09 - 00:17:58:05
Tahir
I think we're now starting to see that even Americans are feeling as though, no matter how hard I work, I'll never actually achieve the life that I wanted to achieve. And again, a shared perspective or sense from Canadians and Americans is that the system is rigged, that the rich will always get richer and the gap will widen between those who have everything and those who have nothing.

00:17:58:06 - 00:18:27:05
Tahir
And so we're seeing that play out as well. What was also interesting is that the environment is as much a concern in the U.S. as it is here in Canada, but as I mentioned before, in Canada, people across all age demographics are now sort of at the table ready to do something about it. So previous years, the report sort of revealed that there might have been a bit of a baton pass or a hot potato in between generations.

00:18:27:05 - 00:18:45:18
Tahir
In terms of whose responsibility is it to clean up the environment and save the planet? Right. There was a bit of, I think it was last year, a bit of the older generations being like, hey, you know, this is on you now, over to you younger generation to fix this. And the younger generations very much saying, hey, you made this mess.

00:18:45:20 - 00:19:10:12
Tahir
How about you help clean it up? Whereas now, across the board, they all believe that more needs to be done. Otherwise we will continue to repeat our mistakes. Interestingly, in the U.S. it's a concern, but it doesn't come down to age. It comes down to political beliefs and an association. So if you're a Democrat, you're highly concerned about the environment and that government is not doing enough.

00:19:10:14 - 00:19:14:20
Tahir
If you're a Republican, you're not as concerned at all.

00:19:14:22 - 00:19:40:10
Ben
I will say, what I loved about the coming together of these reports is to see that people are ready again, and want to take charge is the thing that's exciting us most for all of our clients. The fact that people are ready is a great start, and I think now it's got to be about brands readying themselves to be able to deliver against some of the challenges that people are facing out there in the world.

00:19:40:10 - 00:20:08:06
Ben
And and honestly, the stats have always shaken us a little bit when we hear things like 72% of people don't believe brands understand them or care to solve their problems and their challenges. I think that's where we've got to ready ourselves in the communications and the creative space is how can we all come together and figure out ways that authentically make sense for brands to step in and do the right things by people?

00:20:08:06 - 00:20:14:04
Ben
Because, as we know, what's good for people will be good for our clients businesses as well.

00:20:14:06 - 00:20:33:23
Alison
Now, building on that, you shared earlier that younger Canadians are starting to be open to brands, certainly around loneliness and open to them coming in and helping find solutions . So Ben, are you seeing that start around the permission for brands and that the trust in brands growing or has it sort of plateaued study to study?

00:20:34:01 - 00:20:47:04
Ben
I'm pretty sure the number has held pretty consistently over the last three years. Sadly, we haven't seen a big change in terms of people's belief that brands understand them or are there to to help them.

00:20:47:08 - 00:21:03:22
Tahir
And that number is actually higher at 77%. So it's always hovered around 77, 80. We would love to have seen that number go down as we continue on with this report year over year, but nonetheless it has not changed as much as we would like.

00:21:04:00 - 00:21:27:14
Ben
I think the other big thing is it really is important that brands don't see this as like the charitable division needs to solve this. I think that's often what work can come down to. Purpose means charity. I think having an authentic purpose at the core of why your business exists in the world, and why our clients get out of bed in the mornings.

00:21:27:16 - 00:21:55:23
Ben
That's the linkage to helping solve some of these problems. And people don't expect free. They don't expect things to just be given to them and handed them. Yes, we need our ESG strategies, but people know that we are in the business of making profit. People know that our clients and brands need to make money as well. I think it's just about the transparency, the openness to help solve some of these challenges, the fairness with it. The AI one's really interesting.

00:21:56:00 - 00:22:07:15
Ben
People are scared of the pace of it, but they also know that it's going to add value in certain ways to companies. They just want to make sure that they're getting their fair shake of that value as well.

00:22:07:17 - 00:22:34:01
Alison
Great insights Ben. Thank you very much. So one of the most powerful aspects of the HumanKind study really, is how it's uncovering very human problems and tensions that we as a society are grappling with, and we as Canadians are grappling with in our daily lives as well. You've shared some examples, and I'd love you both to share a few more examples of how brands are taking that authentic action to really help solve and alleviate the problems, and in the process, also benefiting their businesses.

00:22:34:03 - 00:23:18:18
Ben
This is an amazing organization called Melanin Gamers, who are really standing up for, for the rights of people of colour in the video gaming and online video gaming space, and yeah, this is the second year of work we've done for them. We've actually launched a toxicity rating for some of the major games that are played online. And what's interesting about the ESRB ratings that we're so familiar with, like T for Teen, is they're only rating the game mode, and the reality is, is while people play game mode as individuals, the lion's share of gaming now happens in online communities where toxicity levels are frightening.

00:23:18:20 - 00:23:45:20
Ben
And in fact, the reason Melanin Gamers was found, it was because the founders, Annabel, the founder's, brother Alan, actually had to come away from gaming as as a teen because he was being so ridiculed and all of the racist comments that were happening to him. So we set out to try and help the organization. And in year one, we created The Watch, which was an online community to help defend and stand up for our people in online communities.

00:23:45:20 - 00:24:07:04
Ben
And then the second is the toxicity rating, which launched a few months ago, which helps people identify with games that are going to be really toxic online, which we did using a deep research study. So yeah, for us, we've seen the visiveness in the study, but for us that is a real problem that's been consistent in the study over the last three years.

00:24:07:04 - 00:24:16:16
Ben
And for us to be able to go out and work with an organization to try and help solve such a big systemic problem has been really, really engaging for the team.

00:24:16:18 - 00:24:39:20
Tahir
Again, this is where understanding a bit more of the deeper factors that are contributing to even the loneliness. But social media is a big part of that because of what Ben just mentioned, like what they're in these forums or when they're connected on social platforms. It is the online racism, the online abuse, the fact that they're coming away from it with lower self-esteem.

00:24:39:20 - 00:25:07:04
Tahir
There's a concern that young people's self-worth is connected to even just simple things such as likes. So I can only imagine what happens if a 14-15 year old is playing a video game and just feels endlessly ridiculed, or worse. And so that that's what's also contributing to that almost self-isolation. So these small things, I mean, again, this doesn't seem small.

00:25:07:04 - 00:25:30:23
Tahir
This is actually a massive initiative. I think the biggest learning for us is we're not saying that online forums, online gaming should go away. We're not saying that social media and social media platforms should no longer be accessed by young people. We're not saying phones and screens, you know, are the enemy, because we also know that that's just not true, and it's not a reality that Canadians will live with it.

00:25:31:01 - 00:25:36:08
Tahir
But where we can, how can we foster healthier communities?

00:25:36:10 - 00:26:06:17
Ben
There was a great piece of work done. And actually it was it was a number of years ago, but it was also around the challenges of loneliness in older people. And it was for Skype, believe it or not. I haven't heard the word Skype for a while, but what they did is they realized that there was a challenge of aging people being really lonely, and what they did is they connected them with young people who were looking to learn English or Spanish or different languages.

00:26:06:17 - 00:26:32:10
Ben
And so it was such an interesting idea where young people that wanted to learn languages could, can connect with old people that had lots of time on their hands and little to do, and it just gave them an opportunity to have human connection and build relationships that they weren't getting at home or in their communities. So just the power of that ability to to create a product or service that was true and authentic to their brand.

00:26:32:11 - 00:26:58:06
Ben
So a real human need was phenomenal. So I think it's ideas like that, that creativity can be such a powerful business tool. And I think it's just about taking a minute or taking some time. And whether it's running workshops or bringing divergent groups of people together. But looking at the product, looking at what the brand does, looking at the problem and trying to find authentic solutions for it.

00:26:58:08 - 00:27:26:01
Alison
Those are great examples. Now you both called out like in doing a study like this where you're asking Canadians what's most concerning, it can certainly pull some very meaty, important issues that also at times can be a bit of a downer. So I'd love to have you both share with our listeners, what you're most excited about coming out of year three of the study and how Canadians are feeling as they're going into the coming months?

00:27:26:03 - 00:28:01:11
Ben
It's just that feeling of, or that view of seeing people more optimistic, more ready to get back in and take control of life no matter what, what's being thrown at them. I think there's so much optimism in the report, even though it it can feel like a bit of a downer. That for me is is what's exciting. But what's more exciting is the opportunity for us and the brands that we're serving to really find ways to reinvigorate their brands, their products, their services in a way that's going to meet the Canadians and the U.S. customers

00:28:01:13 - 00:28:04:10
Ben
you know where they are on that journey of optimism and being ready.

00:28:04:10 - 00:28:29:04
Tahir
I think for me, it's just being able to see some of these insights or problems, now that we have more clarity on them, that we can get together with our client partners and directly go after them and try and find solutions for them, which is what's been happening since we launched this third edition. And we mentioned some pretty big initiatives like the Toxicity report.

00:28:29:04 - 00:28:55:12
Tahir
But other instances, we have brands like Pizza Hut and just about how do you find fun, simple social ways of connecting people over pizza. So not everything has to be as meaty to your point Alison, even though if it's a meat lovers pizza, that's pretty meaty, but I think it's it's still about within the sandbox of your brand and within what people expect of you and the role you play.

00:28:55:12 - 00:29:05:01
Tahir
It's finding your own way as a brand. And I think just knowing what we can go right at as a strategist is something that I find really exciting.

00:29:05:03 - 00:29:16:21
Alison
Now you both have incredibly enviable careers, and I'd love to close off our discussion by having each of you share one piece of advice that you would give to our listeners, knowing that our listeners are primarily marketers just like you.

00:29:16:23 - 00:29:34:06
Ben
There's so many different ways to answer this. I love Leo's quote of reaching for the stars. I think there's a there's a lot of there's a lot of "no" in the world when we when we try and do new things or do different things, I think, you know, having that belief and optimism to reach for the stars is critical,

00:29:34:06 - 00:29:52:20
Ben
if you're going to disrupt, if you're going to do new things. But I think ultimately when I think about one piece of advice is just be a good human. I think living the values that you do every day, being a good human at work, at home, I think it's going to make for success, whatever you're doing.

00:29:52:22 - 00:30:16:14
Tahir
I would say for me, because my path wasn't so conventional and where I started at digital advertising, I was then moving into accounts that I headed over in the planet and then where I am today. I think there needs to be an openness to being uncomfortable, because in my career, I've had moments where even coming to Leo, from where I was previously, I was very content.

00:30:16:19 - 00:30:38:18
Tahir
I was doing good work, I was working at a top agency, and I was surrounded by people I considered friends, like there was no real reason for me to have to leave, other than I knew at the time that Leo would be a next level, that again, would probably poke at my imposter syndrome, and that would probably make me feel a little bit vulnerable.

00:30:38:20 - 00:30:53:01
Tahir
And in the end, I didn't know a single person, which I thought was actually pretty hard to do in this industry, which can seem small at times. 

00:30:53:03 - 00:31:16:00
Tahir
I think it's always those steps along the way, even moving into strategy from account management, it's there's always been these steps where it felt uncomfortable and maybe even a little scary, but I think just put your head down and working, being open to those uncomfortable scenarios. And to Ben's point, just being a good human, I think, I think those are those are pretty good keys.

00:31:16:01 - 00:31:30:14
Alison
Thanks for the Outstanding advice. Ben and Tahir, thank you very much. This has been a great conversation, and  I really appreciate you sharing a lot of very rich insights on Canadian consumers and also how we're comparing to our American counterparts. So I will end by saying just a great big thank you on behalf of the CMA and all our listeners.

00:31:30:16 - 00:31:32:06
Ben 
Thank you so much, Alison.

00:31:32:08 - 00:31:37:14
Tahir
Nice speaking with you, Alison.

00:31:37:16 - 00:31:50:06
Presenter
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