Imperfect Mens Club

Our podcast is raw...no edits, no music, no commercials. My buddy Jim and I have fun talking about life and business and anything we find interesting. We're both successful entrepreneurs, former athletes, fathers and we don't shy away from controversy. We don't agree on everything and we both like to laugh imperfectmensclub.com IG: @imperfectmensclubpodcast

Unconditional Service: Navigating the Complexities of Helping Others 03/06/2025

Unconditional Service: Navigating the Complexities of Helping Others Mark introduces the topic of serving others and connects it to the flywheel of life in the category of relationships/others. Jim brings up the wheel and discusses each of the 5 areas - Money, worldview, relationships, health and career/profession This episode is about others. Men and women He says there are two types of service and then shares his recent event KBIS in Las Vegas. He was selected as #1 membership chair in the country Two types of service are paid and unpaid He talks about the unpaid type - how different it is to serve for pay and to serve simply to serve “Unconditional” service. Helping others with no expectation of anything in return Politics comes up Service isn’t for everyone Mark shares his view of service. He distinguishes between help and service. Purpose comes with more responsibility Mark and Jim disagree about the line between paid and unpaid Jim feels like one is a transaction and one is just service. Mark thinks its more nuanced than that The disagreement between the guys is interesting Jim brings up the local church and Mark laughs. Mark feels that there is a muddled definition of service in the church Mark shares his challenge with the Catholic Church and this exact confusion with service versus transactions. They agree to disagree Jim shares a story about his trip to Vegas and the call he got from a former player. The kid is in trouble and needs Jim’s help…in the form of money Jim explains his thought process as he determines whether to help the kid - the kid needs money. He misbehaved in an airport and he now has a court date Jim walks us through the conversation he has with the kid and his suggested resolution “I don’t loan money” He deftly walks the kid through the reality of his situation and he agrees to “give” him $1400 “I don’t want you to pay me back the money” As things develop, it becomes clear that this kids future is on the line He asks the kid to call him back tomorrow so he can reflect on it. Jim concludes that without his help, the kid is fucked Jim recognizes he may never see this kid again and he may never know if his help was effective, but decides to go all in Money, help, advice, paperwork, alcohol treatment, etc… Unconditional service…or conditional? Mark shares his opinion on why he supports Jim’s process for determining whether to help. Mark supports the kids personal accountability. He agrees it’s just a bad decision and the kid deserves a break Jim goes into more detail about the circumstances. Part of which is that he is a very big and dark man. He scared people…unintentionally. His encounter with cops was verbal, not physical. He swore at the cop and got cuffed Jim sees the opportunity to get off is real…no physical confrontation Mark summarizes his assessment of Jim’s process in determining whether to help the kid or not Jim - “You can pay me back in other ways. I want your word” Mark shares the importance of wanting to be helped. This kid was ready to be helped Mark readdresses the distinction between helping and charging for help. How he struggles with this Jim asks Mark about entitlement and then wants Marks opinion on the word “petulant” Mark pulled petulant out of political behavior. Petulant, entitled people don’t take responsibility and they play victim They have a laugh about their disagreement /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/35560055

How Are You Serving Others? What Does That Look Like? 02/21/2025

How Are You Serving Others? What Does That Look Like? Jim - the most important conversation you’ll ever have is with yourself…and that person is a crazy person Jim frames service in the context of bringing a product or service to the market to help people in some ways He frames this in the context of his most recent project that he asked Mark for help with - his talk about the kitchen and bath industry Jim asks. If it’s not just money, why do we seek to serve. What’s the bigger picture Both guys feel strongly that they have something to offer the world and the world has things to offer them Our experience leaves us with knowledge and wisdom that come from that unique experience Mark brings up his faith. “God, help me out. What do you want me to be doing again?” Jim brings up his summary doc (which he creates for each episode) on which mentions God’s greater design Are you going to die with your art in you or are you committed to putting it out in the world What have you overcome and how can you share that to help others Mark talks about obstacles and how we all find ourselves in a particular seat at a particular time for some reason Mark shares his journey into the recruiting world and how he evolved into an expert in that specific space - career development Jim shares how important he thinks Mark’s work is Mark says it’s top 5 for people. He takes that responsibility very seriously Mark shares his story about helping his friend with confidence Jim says confidence is everything and it’s hard to maintain over the course of a lifetime Mark mentions his divorce in the context of confidence and how he lost it and the trip to get it back. Validation from the outside Jim “You are most able to help the person you once were” He talks about resistance - fear is self centered Why wouldn’t you share? Because you’re scared Mark shares a few stories about helping a few people overcome their fears Enough confidence to overcome his fear - to take action Mark shares how fear is now a trigger for him to keep going. It doesn’t stop him, it encourages him Jim talks about the value of solving one specific problem. What is it and why is it a problem Mark says do we help them rid themselves of the fear or do we simply help them push past it Jim reads a few more quotes. Solutions versus problems Mark asks, “if my deliverable is confidence, what does that look like?” Messaging in a noisy world What specific problem are we solving? You have to frame the problem well. Specifically and powerfully Without the problem…what does life look like…specifically. Pain and pleasure Mark shares his opinion of the SNL auditions he watched during the 50th anniversary celebration - vulnerability, fear, risk…with everything on the line Jim talks about the value of a third party testimonial/referral/recommendation Mark laughs about the irony for me teaching about this and yet having a hard time doing it himself JIm’s three “E’s” Educate, Entertain and Encourage Mark says he’s going to steal the 3 E’s Mark’s tip from a coach “tell them something they’ve never heard before that they know to be true” Jim - “Enter the conversation they’re already having with themselves” Mark shares some takeaways - specifically about asking for help Mark commits to delivering confidence Jims speaks about being known and being clear Mark agrees that most people are unclear Mark wraps up with how happy he was to help Jim “Stick your neck out there man” /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/35380535

Growth Is On The Other Side Of Resistance 02/13/2025

Growth Is On The Other Side Of Resistance Mark introduces the topic and both guys have personal accounts of dealing with making themselves vulnerable Jim thinks that most of us don’t put ourselves out there Jim brings in our flywheel and the 5 areas of life and then uses his 5 W’s approach (Why, who, when, where and what) Mark reads the definition of self-vulnerability that Jim provides from his online searches about the topic Jim says acknowledging your strengths is easy, but sharing your weaknesses is much harder Jim shares his fear he experienced getting ready for a recent webinar presentation. He wonders why he put himself out there and pushed himself like he did. He felt humiliated and uncomfortable Mark appreciates the vulnerability and shares his perspective from the outside looking in. He shared what he thought was his role in helping Jim Jim shares Marks comments after the recording about the difference between team and individual sports Mark shares a tennis story and how it became more than tennis. It became a mental and emotional exercise. He reflects on the pride of the win Jim shares his opinion on how new things are met with resistance and growth is on the other side of the resistance Mark suggests that Jim will be happy he did it and not whether it was good or not Mark shares his vulnerable experience writing his most recent workbook. How challenging it has been to send it out and await feedback. What if they say it sucks? The voices in your head Jim shares 5 examples of self vulnerability 1. Embracing your imperfections. It’s hard to be kind to yourself. How ironic that our podcast is all about imperfection 2. Admitting your mistakes instead of denying them or blaming others. Jim has grown to appreciate people that own their own shit. Mark asks…if you don’t own it, how do you get better 3. Accepting your emotions. Process instead deny. Mark shares his daughters experience with embracing fear 4. Acknowledge your limitations (Clint Eastwood quote). Jim shares a text from his future daughter in law and expands on how aging has changed his view of his own limitations and who he surrounds himself with. Mark shares the difference between physical and emotional “finish lines”. Jim goes further into his inner voice and self reflection as a dyslexic - embarrasment. Both guys share perspectives on criticism. Mark talks about his fear of apathy versus hate. Mark’s two voices - imposter and expert. The crazy inner voice 5. Being honest about your needs. Saying no to other people and projects. You need others help with almost everything Jim talks about the effort and energy he put into his talk…and he still wasn’t satisfied. He shares his friend’s opinion on his webinar…”I know why you think it sucked…they’re fuckin hard” Mark gives both guys credit…most people won’t take the risk /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/35274730

Mentorship and Volunteer Work - Just A Nudge 02/07/2025

Mentorship and Volunteer Work - Just A Nudge Today Jim and I welcome a special guest. Paul Carroll was my mentor in the start-up staffing space at the beginning of my career and he joins us today to talk about his latest work volunteering with young men in the foster care system We started recording before my introduction:). It sounded good so we decided to keep rolling. Sorry for any confusion Pauls shares his sense of urgency and the “signs” that showed up for him that got him interested in this work initially He shares how the work went from theoretical to practical Jim asks Paul if this is similar to the problem/solution approach he’s taken in business. Paul says yes, but he brought some other experiential nuance to bear Jim asks why he’s doing it. Paul explains how his life has evolved to make this available to him. It’s time and he feels he can make an impact Jim mentions how being independent allows us to do this “non-profit” work. An dhow important it is for kids to have a purpose Paul shares his son’s squash career and how he brought in his foster kids to the program and how those cultures mixed and mingled He’s found that other similar organizations have been interested in him sharing his approach as well Paul shares some details of his upbringing. How he was raised by a “village” along with his mom Jim reflects on the multicultural nature of Paul’s group of kids and how what they look like just doesn’t matter. Paul shares how diverse his hiring always was, because it was about results, not appearances. He emphasizes the importance of people’s childhoods in determining how to motivate and challenge them Jim brings Mark into the discussion. Mark shares his relationship with Paul and how they’ve reconnected. He talks about mentorship and reads a definition Mark reflects on the similarities of what Paul is doing now to what he’s always done Mark met Paul when he was 26. He shares how they met and started working together The guys joke about Paul being “nice” or “kind” and the simplicity of his approach Then Jim asks Paul about Mark. Paul shares his opinion of Mark’s strengths and contextualizes their beginning in the early 90’s in Orlando, FL Jim asks Paul if his eye for talent transfers into his assessment of his current group of foster kids. Paul says yes it does. A little direction and hand holding. Some kindness, patience and mentorship coupled with some activities is sometimes all these kids need Jim asks Mark to read the definition of wisdom and then asks Paul what he thinks. He sees wisdom as life experience and travel experience. Been there, done that. I see the fork and if you go that way, it’s not going to be pretty Paul put’s life in perspective and reflects on his mother’s advice. No regrets. He learned that early. Pauls says he has things he still wants to do, but he has no regrets Mark shares Pauls testimonial about the podcast and his son’s enjoyment of it Mark reflects on Paul’s influence and in particular how to be in a moment. Paying attention and recognizing when you’re in a moment and how simplicity plays a role in success Jim shares our wheel and then lists some of our “self” lists. He teaches his boys self respect and feels strongly that this is the key. Everything is temporary and life is a series of choices. If you maintain your self respect, everything else will come to you. Look at life through your own eyes /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/35193685

Have We Just Left A "Bygone Era"? 01/23/2025

Have We Just Left A "Bygone Era"? Episode 3 Bygone Era Mark introduces the topic for this episode. The notion of there being a bygone era. Jim suggested the topic given the current political landscape and the guys explore other applications of the notion in life Mark reads the Google definition Jim comes in and suggests that we have entered a new era. He brings of his 5 W framework and the concept of self awareness (Who,what,when,where and why) Jim cites The Biden administration and his cronies being part of this “bygone era” He claims everyone wants to remain relevant Mark recalls his start in recruiting and how technology and communication has evolved since then. How important self awareness is to stay current Jim brings up sports - coaches are aging out. Specifically Andy Reid of the Chiefs and Bill Belichick as examples JIm reflects on Joe Biden’s legacy is sad Mark mentions his brother’s retirement and says Biden is retiring. Jim says no…he got fired We’re all gonna retire someday. Jim says at some point it’s time to pull back. He reminds us of how our adult children keep us honest and current Mark reflects on his appreciation for Jim’s candor in disagreeing with him The value of hanging out with people who are kind, not nice. Jim agrees and shares his opinion as to why this is Jim’s quote - “You can’t kill a thought. It has to die of old age or natural causes” He cites the military as an example and then brings up all the “thoughts” that have recently died of natural causes DEI, etc… Mark reminds us of Vince Lombardi type coaching as well as old leadership styles involving giving orders Jim shares his personal coaching experiences with WWII trained coaches. Football and the military. Then he shares how he’s seen the new coaching style emerged starting with Bill Walsh. His approach was more intellectual Mark brings up the current concussion protocol and how it used to be getting your bell rung and smelling salts Jim talks about rising to the top and how that exposes you to criticism. Some people can handle this and most can’t. Biden couldn’t Mark shares his daughter’s experience reaching the top of her profession and the pressure. The price you pay for being on top What chapters have closed? It’s time to move on and many won’t want to. They’ll cling to the bygone era as if it’s not yet bygone Jim brings up Hollywood as an example of a group who won’t likely move on Mark clarifies that just because you’re good at one thing doesn’t meant mean you are good at anything else. Jim and Mark reflect on Hollywood in the 40’s and 50’s versus today. Old stars went to war. Athletes went to war. Today the stars are pampered and can hide from their lack of credibility The guys get deeper into how things used to be. Patriotism and service…is this a bygone era? Jim shares his story about the Japanese soldier (Hiro Anoda) who fought for 30 years after the war was over because he couldn’t believe it was over. Are we fighting wars that don’t exist Mark shares how he fought his divorce battle far past when he should have stopped “Doesn’t it take two people to fight?” What if you just stopped? Jim shares a similar story about a good friend of his. “You need to create your own rules. Create a whole new game” Sometimes we stop being served by our old rules and we need to change Jim shares another story about his current high school’s football team and how dramatically some rules have changed…the world has changed…it’s a bygone era Mark ends with his stubborn Starbucks policy story:) /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/34984925

Where Our Belief Systems Come From 01/16/2025

Where Our Belief Systems Come From Mark introduces the episode about belief systems in the context of the fires in Southern California Remember…Jim is a California native still living in the Bay Area and Mark has lived in Florida since 1990 Two very different perspectives and responses to natural disasters! Jim says it’s personal because he has friends and family in the fire zone He brings in our tag line and framework. He says we’ll try and find some good in all of it. He cites our 5 areas with focus on worldview Jim share some of his preparation for the episode. He asks Mark to read the definition of “belief systems” Then Jim goes into his 5 W’s (Why,what,who,when,where) The power of self awareness and where all this is going politically, nationally and locally Mark suggests that he sees two things. The national presence and the local presence. Nationally we are tiring of a lack of leadership. Locally we are still flexing against our national leadership. One side is focused on resolution and prevention, the other side is focused on climate change. Mark thinks it’s absurd and Jim agrees. He’s confused about how different people can see different things. He’s disgusted with the climate change narrative and Governor Newsome. He asks, “what is the government’s role?” Jim shares how CA used to be the best in the world at innovation and irrigation. The Central Valley back to the Gold Rush “Cal doesn’t have a water problem, we have a water management problem” He asks how this is happening? The environmentalists have positioned animals as more important than human Mark says it’s delusional. Jim says it’s the whole Democrat party belief system JIm says the spin is coming…this is a climate crisis and we need to double down. He believes the opposite is true Mark shares how personal involvement can change how we feel about tragedy. He thinks the fact that rich celebrities are touched by this might shift people’s belief systems away from climate change Jim cites the homelessness these fires have created - how crazy it is that we give free shit to illegals and now these Americans won’t get free assistance of any kind…$$millions$$ Mark brings it back to belief systems. He brings up the 3 top leaders in the discussion - they all sought blame as an initial response. Personal accountability versus blame Jim asks…can you change your belief system? Mark says yes…if you have a story of change that makes sense Jim shares the perspective of his childhood and how unique those belief systems were…and why. Mark agrees it’s generational Mark reflects on his childhood and accountability. Both guys agree. Jim shifts to how our professions affect us and the media as well Mark shares his story about not watching the news. Jim challenges Mark’s position and adds his two cents Mark and Jim share dad stories…the newspaper Today we have info overload assaulting our belief systems Jim mentions Notre Dame and Mark sheds his light on how ND has mishandled woke /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/34885970

The Post Election Paradigm Shift 01/09/2025

The Post Election Paradigm Shift Mark introduces Episode 1 of Season 4 with the topic of a paradigm shift. A shift in the way the country is moving with the election of Donald Trump and the push back against “woke” Jim introduces the wheel and worldview as a likely connection to the topic. He believes the shift is well on it’s way and we can see and hear evidence of it as more people open up post election Jim has some examples and topics he wants to discuss The first one is COVID What did covid change - communication Second is BLM/DEI. Neither were sustainable Third is The 2024 election 4th is Artificial Intelligence Mark grabs on to Covid and tells his COVID story. He then acknowledges that the government has been misleading us for years He reflects on “knowing” early and has some other covid insights He starts to love to DEI and Jim steps in with some more Covid “It wasn’t Covid, it was the government’s response to Covid”. Now we have data. It can’t be political anymore. We have data. He gives the politicians some credit, but says it quickly evolved into an abuse of power. He cites some Blue governors that developed into this grander mistrust of government Next Mark goes hard at BLM/DEI. He shares his inside insights from inside talent acquisition and his disdain for DEI. Mark gets a little hot Jim says it’s become math. A paradigm shift and more loss of trust Jim says it’s way beyond government. CEO’s sucked up to them Mark’s insulted with the hypocrisy Jim cites the Harvard president and other academics who got booted Mark thinks it was like dominoes. Maybe Covid was the first domino…but once it fell…. Mark goes off again on how people who were silent are now talking. It’s both frustrating and liberating. He thinks it’s progress Jim talks about collusion with the tech companies. Information/disinformation. He cites Matt Taibi and some other brave souls who spoke out. Mark says they’re heroes. It was like the Salem Witch Hunt Jim shares some of the other major issues we were lied to about Jim gives Mark credit for “It’s always about politics” and then gets deeper into the lying Mark wants to know when things begin to unravel, how people explain themselves. Jim says it’s happening already. Canada, Germany and Italy Mark says everyone was waiting for the US to move first. Now we have…and the dominoes are falling. Mark’s a bit confused. New info, new data…where’s it all going? It’s crazy Jim brings up the fire in CA - it’s personal because Jim has relatives living there and he had other family lose property in the Oakland fire. Mark acknowledges his daughters experience in Asheville Jim’s relatives are safe. Jim says we don’t know yet. The trickle down…homes, schools, futures?? Mark wants to blame Newsome, but says we don’t know enough yet Mark thinks maybe we should question everything more. More rigorous challenges of statements Jim thinks the amount of information we receive now changes the demands on our thinking and how we process information Mark agrees but says we still need the rigor…it’s just harder Jim says we won’t ever trust the media and the politicians again Mark observes the behavior of the Left. Those who want to get in Trumps’ way or become his best friend. Watching people become who they really are…fascinating Jim shares his opinion about people in power who jump to a new team just to survive Mark distinguishes between those who change with reason and those who simply shift with the wind…fuck those people Jim brings Mark Zuckerberg back into the discussion to observe how people can change. More experience as a human and as an owner Mark talks about his experience with technologists - pretentious and a bit better than thou…holier than thou Laws for you and not for me Mark ends with “I’m thoroughly confused but optimistic” Happy New Year!! /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/34789220

AI...What The Hell Do We Know? 12/24/2024

Planning For What's Next - What Would Jim Rohn Do? 12/20/2024

Planning For What's Next - What Would Jim Rohn Do? Hey all. We began with a New Years, year-end, goal setting theme within the context of some JIm Rohn quotes What we ended up with is an in depth reflection on Jim Rohn's wisdom and how much of it might be very helpful as we plan for what's next ---------------- Mark leads with year-end, new year and goal setting as topics. The context is the wisdom of Jim Rohn. Our Jim loves Rohn and brought some quotes as foundations for our episode Jim says it’s the past, present and future approach He reflects on being in sales and the goal setting and metrics of sales Jim shares his opinion of Jim Rohn and how timeless his wisdom is Jim says 2024 was a year of real change and events that will shape us forever. Decisive AI, new administration, mainstream news failing… Two Rohn quotes… “Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better” “To get what you want, you give others what they want” Mark says wisdom is wisdom and if it’s helpful, you’ll find it in all works (Twain, Stoics, Bible…) Jim brings up Rohn’s optimism and patriotism. The value of hard work and possibilities Mark brings up that hope, optimism and wisdom are choices. You seek them or you don’t Mark read’s Jim G’s Rohn quotes Formal education and self education. Jim describes his own self education journey. Mark reflects on his experience with education and quotes Twain. Education became indoctrination Control - “Either you run the day or the day runs you”. Jim brings in our wheel framework and the self (awareness and control). Mark shares how all the “Selfs” work together Discipline - “Success is nothing more than a few disciplines practiced every day”. Mark frames this as “showing up” Prepared, on time, with a good attitude. Mark reflects that all the good stuff is hard, but it’s simple. Jim brings up sports and how critical showing up is, not just talent. He then cites the high cost of being the best. Mark brings up his father and brother being pilots The Pain Of Discipline - Choosing discipline or choosing regret. Jim shares “I’d rather die in my world than live in someone else’s with regret”. Better or bitter. Mark talks about his regrets in terms of how he processes his regrets. Jim - Life is hard and if it’s not, you’re not trying hard enough” Mark tells his “Get A Helmet” story Jim says it dangerous to tell kids that things should be easy. Mark reflects on “rub some dirt on it” and “No pain no gain”. The Vince Lombardi era Mark asks about the happy medium between pain and fortitude Walls - The walls we build around us to keep sadness out, also keep the joy out Jim has one more… If you don’t design your own plan… Peoples problems are always more important than yours Mark recommends Jim Rohn, Mark Twain and the Stoics /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/34552665

Know Thyself - The Magic Of Self Awareness 12/12/2024

Know Thyself - The Magic Of Self Awareness Mark introduces the topic of self awareness. He shares that their “pregame” discussion was very self reflective. He suggests that the time of year, as well as some other personal events from Jim’s life and Mark’s have the guys a bit mired in self reflection and self awareness Mark reads a couple of quotes Jim brought to the recording. One secular (Stoic) and one Biblical (Thomas) Jim shares some context for his quotes and shares his position on self awareness and what’s going on in his life Jim reflects on yesterday being the 5 year anniversary of his father’s death. He says to really understand yourself, you have to go back in time. Family history and stories. Jim came across some photos of his dad he’d never seen before. Then he reflects a bit on his grandparents (4 grandparents/four quadrants - that shape you) Jim asks about Mark’s conversation with his dad and comments about “peeling back Jim’s onion” He talks about piling multiple issues all on top at once and how that makes tough stuff even tougher Are we getting more “Imperfect” or more self aware Mark shares his mom and dad’s influence and then describes his memories of his grandfathers…not from memory but from stories Jim returns to our fathers and specifically his relationship with his father. How he has gained appreciation and gratitude for his dad since his death. Jim also suggests that he’s grown too Mark gives Jim kudos for being personally accountable with all these things for being responsible for his response to hardship and challenge. Learning from his experiences Mark shares that his dad also had 10 brothers and sisters too. Both guys are also middle children Mark shares his self image Jim shares another saying/quote about virtues and vices They discuss both. Jim thinks we all strive to be the best versions of ourselves Mark reflects on being fathers of young adult kids and what fathers face as their kids get older - more people more problems How to navigate these additional relationships. They joke about the meaning of love and different types of love Intimacy, jealousy, all the emotions Mark says it’s also a function of the time of year Jim shares his experience going through the photos of his dad. He got them touched up - colorized and they came to life. He reflects about how his father tried to discuss these things with Jim when he was younger Mark brings up his mom’s suicide and how his feelings have evolved as time has gone by. For his kids too Mark says self awareness enables us to address and feel these things Jim asks Mark to speak more about his mom. Mark talks about his younger brother and how he feels like he inherited his troubles from his mother Mark goes deep on his mom’s suicide story. How he went from anger to sadness to forgiveness and empathy/love Mark is grateful for her now. He sees her asa troubled soul Jim says we’re all troubled souls Mark thinks there are two types of people. Melancholy and not melancholy Jim asks about Mark’s father. Mark says his dad was the exact opposite. He shares his parents divorce and some of the details Jim asks more about Mark’s mom. Did he recognize his mom’s condition when he was young Mark oversimplifies the impact his parents had on his 3 siblings and himself. He shares some suicide and addiction reflections Jim begins to wrap up and Mark adds a takeaway We are all going through stuff. We’re not alone Mark loves the 4 quadrant approach of your 4 grandparents Jim reflects on how this episode relates to our flywheel Relationships and worldview As our family members get older…more episode material:) /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/34412730

The Holidays - More People More Problems 12/06/2024

The Holidays - More People More Problems Mark introduces the episode and frames it around the holidays, the challenges therein and the notion that “the more people the more problems” Jim says the topic is timely and he connects it to our flywheel of life…all starting with the self. He shares his opinion on the more people topic and heightened emotions Mark adds New Years and all the prep before the holidays. He cites the pressure the woman are under Jim laughs about being through 50 of these. He says it means more, the younger you are…we’ve seen this movie Mark talks about the evolution from childhood to present holiday state. The expectations are so different. Mark says, as a guy, he doesn’t really care about the details Jim brings up the idea of more than one family…more chaotic Jim goes around the wheel, starting with money. Mark tells some stories about traveling versus staying at home Jim mentions health. Physical and mental. Everybody gets a little crazy. Mark cites anxiety. You don’t know what might happen. Alcohol comes out… Mark jokes about dietary restrictions. He tells about the football game we played and how snow and alcohol changed it and then it stopped Mark talks about being the boss versus being on holiday. No rules or systems Jim talks about gifts he gave his clients for the holidays Mark brings us back to today. This past holiday and how fragmented the family unit is now Jim shifts to relationships and the difference between men and women during the holidays Next is worldview. Politics and childhood Red team and blue team Religion and nationality Mark goes back to the men and women thing. Parade versus the football game. How it was when he was a child Back to worldview. Mark thinks people can’t avoid these topics. Jim says it’s why he went to Mexico:). 85 and sunny…no political drama 30 days later we have Christmas coming up. Jim says Xmass is better. More festive. Both guys share Christmas stories. Comparison. Who has what and who makes what… Mark talks about forming new traditions as his family evolved and changed Mark shares his holiday ZOOM call with his kids and more traditions and stories Jim shares his Santa suit tradition and some related stories Then Mark shares his “Santa’s coming” bells Manipulative and fun at the same time. The guys talk about when the kids figure out Santa Mark brings up religion as things evolved and how different faiths come in Jim brings up midnight Mass and hook ups. Catching up and reconnecting…and more fights Mark brings up the anticipation of the New Year. A new start. New Years resolutions All the emotions. Guilt, anxiety, disappointment. The New Year adds to the emotional whirlwind Mark ends with how important being in the moment is during all the holiday chaos Jim ends with gratitude /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/34320955

Life Is One Big 80/20 Rule 11/21/2024

A Letter To Your 21 Year Old Self 11/14/2024

A Letter To Your 21 Year Old Self Mark introduces the episode and reflects on the “pregame” discussion with Jim. Jim is giving a speech in a few days to a group or around 60 to 80 college students at San Jose State in the dept of Design and construction and he wants to give them career advice and life advice to help them with the transition from school to life Jim brings the wheel into play and shares some context for his upcoming talk. Who the audience is and the topics to be discussed Jim expands upon the idea of the letter he recommends students write or could write to be read later in life Jim starts to talk about the types of advice that might be helpful to this audience His first tip is mentorship. One of Mark’s favorite topics 90% of life is jus showing up - Jim goes into great detail about what showing up means. On time, all the time and prepared with a great attitude. That is hard to do Mark loves the simplicity of it. He asks Jim to clarify who is writing the letter to whom. Two audiences. The elder to the 21 year old and the 21 year old to himself Jim likes the question. He thinks it’s both too Jim says it’s both what you “should” do, but also what you “should not” do. He wants to be cautious with giving advice. Sending kids down the wrong path…so he chooses to give wisdom instead of advice Mark chimes in in agreement. He says advice is more likely to be presumptuous and wisdom is timeless. He cites how effective experience and stories are more so than advice. He specifically speaks to people about crafting their own stories before engaging the market Jim shares his opinion about preparing kids for socialism and then releasing them in to capitalism…and wonder why they fail He then brings up being American first. He says anything is possible if you show up as a working American. America is a meritocracy, not a bunch of identity groups. Just be good at something Mark wishes he could attend Jim’s an event as a fly on the wall Mark reflects on a do-over. Find out how to work hard and then spend the rest of your life learning how to work smarter. More efficiently and delegation of things you don’t like and don ’t do well Jim brings in some quotes “Success is a combo of hard work, showing up and luck” If you don’t show up…nothing will happen People like to help people, but you need to be “referable” Mark shares how he found his mentor…by being referable What is referable - dependable, punctual, productive, trustworthy… Jim says at 21 all you have is your potential. Mark’s mentor saw his potential and Mark was willing to follow his mentor’s advice’ Jim clarifies that Marks mentorship was a win for all parties. Mark learned and progressed and his mentor made a lot of money Ark says, no one is entitled to anything ‘Im says, give yourself permission Jim’s quote - “The harder I work, the luckier I get” Mark loves the simplicity Einstein - Life is an illusion. It’s all perspective Mark says you can create your own luck…by responding well to what happens to you Don’t blame. Get better Mark loves the quotes. He brings in the notion of time and how we have no notion of time when he was young. Now time is a an extremely valuable asset. Hindsight is 20-20 Jim says we had time in our youth…and now we’re running out of time Life is a marathon. Small incremental change over time Jim speaks of self awareness. You don’t know everything…you don’t know much. “We are all actors in this movie called life…) Mark jokes about Candid Camera. Jim thinks we all have a default movie genre. Romance, comedy, thriller, etc… Mark says his is comedy, but comedy is not always appropriate. Jm talks about being identified as from the Northeast because of what he looks like. Mark says he is also direct unlike most Californians Jim talks about the influence that “Rocky” had on him as a kid Jim says in life it’s often not what you do…it’s what you don’t do He talks about working things out as a kid with his fists and how that does n’t serve you as you age “Never accept criticism from anyone from whom you would not seek advice” Mark says not to allow strangers to get under your skin. “What the fuck do I care what you think of me?” Jim wants his audience to Get at least one good takeaway Be careful with the advice you give out to young people Be the best version of yourself All comparison leads to misery Mark agrees and has fallen back on observations and reflections and telling stories instead of telling people what to do. Stories prompt reflection and critical thought The power of a third party story /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33932372

The Election - What Happened And What Do We Do Now? 11/07/2024

How Simple Words Can Influence Effective Persuasion 11/01/2024

How Simple Words Can Influence Effective Persuasion Mark introduces the topic of communication and within that general topic, the subtopic of persuasion. He then emphasizes the value of having a framework. He puts our framework in perspective Jim chimes in about the idea of having a framework and emphasizes the IMC framework Jim shares his 5 W’s framework and how helpful it has been for him in a variety of projects. How it adds perspective for both parties He shares the value of effective people being clear Jim asks Mark about his framework Mark shares his childhood influences around communication and then his framework What do you say? How do you say it? To whom do you say it? When do you say it? Both guys agree they made their frameworks theirs…no matter where it came from Mark brings up the image Jim shared and begins to share the examples of lazy responses versus helpful responses The guys dig into examples of how powerful specific words are and how changing a word can change the tone of the whole conversation Problem versus “opportunity” or “challenge” All the specific examples from Jim’s image become the conversations Each example uncovers how simple shifts, different words change the whole tone and emotion of the conversation Both guys share their experience with each example and how they have both made the mistake of using the lazy language and relearned the helpful response They both emphasize the importance of not apologizing. Never apologize unless you’ve done real wrong Mark shares - don’t say, “to be honest with you”. “Frank” or Jim’s option “transparent” They discuss transparency as a double edged sword “I’m too busy” means I’m too busy for you They both have a laugh about “too busy” “That’s not my” job versus, “let me get you to the right person” Mark shares his mentor’s story about personal accountability “I’ll try” versus “I’ll take care of it”. Jim has a different angle on this one Mark frames it as personal accountability. I won’t dismiss you, we’ll get it taken care of Apologizing comes up again and both guys reiterate the problem with saying you’re sorry Jim uses “I own that one”. “That one’s on me”. Take ownership Mark - “sorry never works for me unless you really fucked something up” Mark shares some media examples of how apologies become bigger problems Jim says behaviors are more important than words - Mark agrees The next example is disagreement - “You’re wrong” versus “I have a different perspective on this than you and I’d like to share it with you” Jim cites people who actually enjoy conflict to garner attention “This might sound stupid but…” versus “Let’s try this.” Naysayers are everywhere Jim agrees as an inventor he always shares new ideas…the value of reframing ideas until consensus is established Mark brings up Jordan Peterson talking about Elon Musk and comparison (Elon’s roommate story) Jim - All comparison leads to misery Jim shares “I have an hypothesis” versus a theory. An hypothesis is designed to be challenged…designed to be criticized He shares the difference between an hypothesis and a theory A theory has been proven. An hypothesis has not yet been proven “No worries”… “I’m happy to help” Both guys discuss the nuance of this one Mark feels like “no worries” is kind of a throw away They conclude that this whole exercise is an exercise in self awareness The final example is recommending something to someone ‘I think maybe we should” versus “I recommend we do this…” Jim says “I think” makes him feel like “Why should I listen to you” Mark finishes with his 4 pronged framework He confirms that listening and asking questions before speaking is almost always the best strategy Jim finishes with the value of clarifying assumptions, discussing desired outcomes, “who, not how” and what are the necessary resources? Mark shares his support of this as authentic…for both parties /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33735077

Self Interest, How Transparency Wins The Day 10/25/2024

Self Interest, How Transparency Wins The Day A we suggested in the episode, we want to encourage anyone who is interested and able to contribute to my daughter Caroline’s Go Fund Me campaign in support of documenting the devastation that hit Asheville, NC (where she lives) recently with her creative partners in the form of a documentary. Details can be found here - https://gofund.me/8fcfe6fa Thanks for your support!! ———————— Mark introduces the topic of self interest and suggests that it might be valuable to flush out each party’s self interest before engaging another, regardless of the nature of the engagement. Then he tosses it back to Jim before engaging people in conversation. Jim talks about introducing the idea of our podcast to others and describes how he explains it to people He then reflects on how everything we do starts with self. He identifies our target market (middle aged men). He shares his thoughts on self interest in particular and how he tries to establish self interest He feels this helps with transparency and honesty Mark reflects on his sales journey and how he was coached to hide his self interest. He has evolved into a more transparent approach Jim chimes in about his sales career and the evolution of how he handles self interest Both guys reflect on their evolution from selling in the 80’s versus where they on now. They were taught to hold their cards close to the fence Mark shares his reflection on the movie Glengarry GlenRoss. And Alec Baldwins “ABC” approach Jim says he doesn’t miss that approach at all Mark says you can make money with the hard sell, but not long term with the same clients. It’s a churn and burn Mark reframes how he approaches sales and coaching today. Goodwill and referrals It used to be “I win if you lose”. Now it’s win win Jim suggests that our young folks (30’s) today have better bullshit detectors and they won’t tolerate a lack of transparency Jim’s approach now is understanding how every party can win Mark tells a story about his dad’s hand shake deal over a loan - there’s always been room for transparency Jim tells his patent attorney story and how the final bill was much higher than expected - how he resolved the issue with both parties happy and the relationship in tact Jim shares that both parties taking ownership for the solution was critical to the success of the engagement Jim says he is much better at establishing assumptions, self interest and expectations before moving deeper into a negotiation or discussion Marks says we often assume that others see the world the same way we do. He relates a story about his son and “getting things in writing”. Things change post agreement. Nothing is static. Things should be readdressed continuously over time Jim distinguishes between knowledge and wisdom. Experience breeds wisdom. The world needs wisdom, not knowledge Mark says most of his wisdom comes from mistakes and failure. He says execution is what he needs most Jim wants to leave discussions with understanding, not power. He doesn’t know everything. No one does Mark brings up the topic of what words mean. His example is abortion. He shares the different nuances with this particular topic Jim jumps in and suggests that “I don’t want to talk about abortion”. Are you having the wrong conversation with the wrong person at the wrong time. “I don’t want to talk about that”. Back to self interest One has to be self aware about what who wants to talk about Mark jokes about the pregame conversation with Jim about the topic of health. Jim tells stories about different friends who ramble o. About their own ailments Mark bring his daughter and he being able to help everyone…but not if they’re not ready. You can’t people who don’t want to be helped ——————— Jim asks Mark to share his daughter’s campaign to help Asheville, NC recover from the devastation from the hurricane by producing a documentary The guys try to frame the situation and make a link available to help fund the project Here is the link again - https://gofund.me/8fcfe6fa /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33612342

Leaving Your Legacy By Propping Up Your Community 10/18/2024

Leaving Your Legacy By Propping Up Your Community Mark introduces two topics. Community and legacy He shares that they skipped last week because of the two hurricanes and tells the listeners that everyone was safe in his family and how the communities came together Why we can get along and be supportive in times of hardship, yet we are divided in times of peace Mark says we’re not as divided as the media portray us. Mark says if we all got together, we wouldn’t need the government…and that scares the hell out of the government Jim says he’s grateful everyone is OK. He compliments Mark on his ability to not show anxiety Jim speaks about anxiety in general. Common anxiety. Anxiety brings people together It’s human nature. He asks Mark to read the definition of anxiety Mark shares a story about his son during the storm and how, without power, he came outside to help Jim says it’s a perfect example of how anxiety can bring us together Jim relates to the flywheel - health- mental health. He says the best way to handle anxiety is to have a conversation. Anxiety means you’re not present Mark relates the community effort and how healing it was Mark gives his opinion about why he handles anxiety the way he does Jim says it’s not what happens to us it’s how we respond and then he transitions into legacy Mark brings up the movie Poseidon Adventure and Gene Hackman - Great legacy story Jim says it’ not just hurricanes..the political landscape approaching a presidential election They acknowledge Asheville NC where Mark’s daughters and girlfriend daughter lives (everyone is ok) Mark says the reason the current “regime” is nervous is because what they disasters are showing is that when we all get together…we don’t need the government…and that scares the shit out of the people in power Jim agrees and brings up taxes - it’s an insurance policy. We pay you and you protect us…and they have not Jim brings up his hometown near Oakland CA where the government has taken the money and not delivered the services And we’re supposed to trust the government again? Mark asks, why is this, why now? We have SO MUCH media. Regardless of political stance. So much noise. Anxiety comes from the noise Jim shares a high school football story from this past weekend. Pregame pictures:) Mark says there is only 1 MVP He shares his frame of reference 1928 to 2024. 7 or 8 presidents. Their opinions have context Jim says the kids were as interested in their pictures as they were in winning the game Mark says. What’s important? It’s ass backwards Jim says the parents don’t know what to do either and CA is passing laws about cell phones in class Jim says the government can play a role, but another law that schools can’t suspend students anymore. Now way more kids are misbehaving. Also the $900 theft law is still in place Mark asks how long will this most recent tragedy be remembered in the context of community Mark transitions into legacy and asks when one should start thinking about legacy Jim asks that we define legacy and both guys clarify their individual positions on legacy Jim shares some thoughts about his own current anxiety about an upcoming speech he’s to give tomorrow and his most recent provisional patent recently submitted in the context of legacy and anxiety Mark thinks having a legacy is a form of personal accountability Mark shares his Little League All Star anxiety and his dad’s reply Jim shares a Sylvester Stallone story Jim says there is such a thing as healthy anxiety Jim asks Mark what he would say to his 30 year old self Mark says it’s difficult at 30 to think about being 60. Legacy is what the people say about you when you’re gone. Mark wishes Jim good luck with his speech /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33508537

We Look At Life Through Our Own Unique “Screens” 10/03/2024

We Look At Life Through Our Own Unique “Screens” Mark introduces the topic based on Jim’s experience and the guys decide to expand on the flywheel and the 5 areas of life as “screens” that we look through He starts with money Jim shares a story about meeting some strangers and getting into a discussion about our podcast and specifically money. Jim has been getting more and more comfortable explaining our podcast He shares how one of the people was triggered by the topic of money These people were US citizens who grew up in Iran. He asked about wearing her veil and she told Jim she is not a fan of the covering but still wears it This led to a discussion of worldview Jim shares his recollection of the podcast that he listened to about money and his “screen” theory Mark transitions to profession and how different life is for entrepreneurs and those that work for others He talks about risk and the notion of playing with other people’s money Jim refers back to his discussion with the strangers from Iran. A women’s perspective Mark talks about serving men that are not encouraged to talk about emotion. He frames the podcast and the 5 areas in terms of self awareness Jim expands on the self concepts Jim tells about changing actual screens on his home and the analogy of looking at life through screens He suggests that many people go through life unaware of their screens Mark brings up masks and how different their screens are from his Mark talks about his mom and his resultant health screen as far as eating and exercising were concerned. He shares his screen about the medical and pharmaceutical industries Jim talks about his mom and dad and when they were born and their “cheap gene” Mark shares his version of the cheap gene Mark moves the discussion to relationships and brings his mom and dad back into the discussion He suggests that boys and girls tend to look for mates like their mothers and fathers The guys bring up how many people are jaded and the bitter or better phrase. How bitter people start as victims and how difficult this is to overcome Mark talks about entrepreneurship and how it shapes your version of risk. He asks Jim what his life might be like if he never played football Mark brings up grandparents and great grand parents Jim tells a story about a company that he is close to was radio and everyone was let go. He shares how an event like that shapes peoples lens about trusting companies Mark shares his experience with people who have been displaced and treated good bad and indifferent. He has arrived at a place where he is helping people be “prepared” for anything Life isn’t fair. This realization is part of becoming an adult Mark thinks that our podcast is helpful because it pushes self awareness which makes people more aware of what is true versus fair He thinks being aware of your perspectives makes you a more effective communicator Jim connects the discussion to our previous podcast episode of Amore Fatte /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33319292

Things Happen For You Not To You 09/27/2024

Things Happen For You Not To You Mark brings up the topic - Love of fate, love of one’s fate - "Amore Fati" Stoicism Things happen for you, not to you Personal accountability and self awareness Mark asks Jim to share the back story Three conversations with three good friends Jim did a deep dive into Amore Fate. The Japanese version “wabi sabi” The connection to imperfection People with victim mentalities are not pleasant to be around Mark talks about personal accountability and self awareness…learning through failure Jim shares a couple of pet phrases. Bitter or better and don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better Everything is a choice Mark talks about “the pause”. Don’t react. Wait. Regain objectivity Jim came up with 10 words 1. Gratitude - Jim asks Mark about his daily practice 2. Presence - be in the moment. Mark talks about paying attention and young people struggling with attention. Jim cites California law taking phones from kids at school 3. Embrace 4. Response 5. Peace. Mark cites peace of mind 6. Meaning and the connection to suffering. Mark brings up Victor Frankel’s man’s Search For Meaning. Mark suggests that suffering m makes you stronger…it’s a choice 7. Forgiveness. Mark sheds light on forgiving yourself 8. Self Compassion. Jim says it takes work to forgive Mark talks about forgiving his ex wife 9. Mundane Beauty - Mark brings up his dad and how he sees new things with a childlike wonder Life isn’t a highlight film - Jim Mark calls the mundane practice. Weight rooms and running stairs 10. Authenticity and inauthenticity (Our Vice President) Mark talks about applying these concepts to life Acceptance Explore your reactions to things and maybe change your reactions Look for the grace in things. Mark reframes his forgiveness of his ex wife and how he contextualizes her difficult childhood. Put yourself in the other persons shoes…gets you to grace Jim goes back to embracing. Embracing adversity Mark talks about consistency. The need to practice. It’s never done Jim frames the discussion as being a persons worldview Mark says emotional decisions are often bad decisions. Use the pause Jim says these concepts are timeless and cross cultural constructs Mark shares his daily practice and how all religions have very much the same concepts Jim revisits “don’t be nice, be kind”. Mark says nice is inauthentic Mark says we’re all going through the same shit Jim asks us to be men. There are too many boys out there DEI gets some laughs Jim shares “the search for meaning in the imperfection” He closes with meaning in the incomplete Mark frames incomplete in terms of shipping your work at 80 or 90 % complete Jim agrees completely /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33232852

Civil Discourse - Are You Red Team Or Blue Team? 09/19/2024

Civil Discourse - Are You Red Team Or Blue Team? Mark introduces the topic of civil discourse and reads the definition He classifies it as a worldview topic and asks Jim to chime in Jim tells the story about how he and Mark met and that the original topic of the podcast was going to be civil discourse Jim takes us around the wheel and explains where our worldview comes from. Our childhood and our political views Jim cites the current problem that we have in our country with being decided He also suggests that some of the conspiracy theories out there might likely be true Jim says we all are formed by what’s happening in our own back yard. Mark agrees Jim references our wheel again and then asks Mark to share the story that originated the topic Mark says in order to have civil discourse you need to be intentionally civil and kind Both guys agree they are slightly misaligned with regard to optimism and pessimism Jim doesn’t think “the other side” is willing to do this. They simply want to be critical Mark asks a lot of questions and stays away from accusations Mark tells his “yard sign” story He responds to 3 Harris/Walz signs his neighbors dropped with his own sign response Mark explains his positions and his take on the political argument landscape Jim jumps back in with his take on our national elections. He likes using the phrases “red team and blue team” He talks about the pandemic and the BLM riots influencing the 2020 election Mark says the division is in pursuit of control. It was purposeful and it worked. He says the blue team is better at the game Mark talks about the political terms that no longer mean anything He cites the difference between knowing, feeling and thinking Jim thinks we no longer vote “for” people, we vote “against” the other guy Mark tries to take the person out of the discussion Jim agrees, but doesn’t think people can. Jim uses the word polarization and suggests that younger people don’t concern themselves with politics. They’re focused on getting their lives in order. He then distinguishes different generations Marks shares a bit about speaking with his daughters He calls civil discourse “mental gymnastics” Jim sees people changing the topic when they get frustrated Mark agrees and suggests people should just admit when they don’t know People who are not able to support their positions are’t willing to admit they don’t know Mark talks about the importance of speaking up Jim talks about the media. Mark says there is no objective news anymore Jim brings up Johnny Carson and his objectivity because that’s what his dad watched before bed time Carson laughed and made fun of both sides Mark says Carson had a singularity of purpose…to make people laugh The guys then bring up the current late night hosts and how biased they are Mark mentions that one group that is bringing us back is the stand up comedians They discuss Bill Maher, Seinfeld and Joe Rogan Mark brings up Jordan Peterson as a great civil discourse practitioner Mark bring in RFKJr and Tulsi Gabard Jim brings up the women of The View and Mark talks about how people love to stir shit. Bad news sells Mark makes a suggestion to the audience about being more intentional regarding being civil He says we spend too much energy on winning and convincing Jim recommends not using people’s names. He likes the blue red team approach. He also recommends not watching the news and just repeating talking points Mark recommends to not react to new things immediately. Wait, pause. Allow for context to be discovered Don’t make assumptions and get context Jim says you often have to simply stop talking about it Change takes place over time, not in one conversation /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33126922

Are You Coachable And Referable? 09/13/2024

Are You Coachable And Referable? Mark introduces the topic of people being coachable and referable Jim tells the story of a young man he knows and attending his wedding He goes back a few years when this young man was just starting out and shares how he introduced him to his future boss because he was coachable, referable and persistent. Jim says he still, to this day, tries to be coachable Mark says team sports is great fodder for stories Mark shares his story about his daughter asking to speak with him about recruiting She was coachable and referable. His interview was 2 hours and fantastic and at the end she decided she didn’t want to be a recruiter. He goes on to talk about his perspective on people being coachable or not Mark talks about his friend who can’t have lunch without looking at his phone and how he unconsciously decided to not refer him to others because of the risk that might not bring his full attention to the introduction Jim is reminded of somebody at the wedding saying “it’s all about who you know” and how that is helpful, but not enough…you have to be coachable, referable and persistent Mark talks about nepotism and and the absence of coachability and referability. Jim says he won’t refer people just because they ask or are family or friends Jim shares a story about another kid who he had to stop helping because he wasn’t coachable Jim asks Mark for examples from his recruiting profession Mark talks about coaching people in the interview process and the topics of compensation and setting expectations at the end of the interview Jim laughs at how many people disregard his advice Mark says polite persistence is a positive attribute Jim talks about the power of questions and listening way more than you talk 80/20 Mark completely agrees and says opened ended are the way to go Mark also says questions are the best way to disagree with someone too Jim takes us back to the kid at the wedding and says he manifested his beautiful life by being coachable, referable and persistent Mark says these skills are lifelong and we should constantly work on getting better Jim shares his story about working with patent attorneys He emphasizes the importance of working with great clients Removing the friction Mark shares his story about changing auto mechanics and why we pay experts that know stuff we don’t know Jim shares his perspective about his gardener and how is so referable and never lets Jim down. He is ultimately referable Mark shares the feeling of satisfaction of having referred someone and having that person come through Be more coachable, be referable and be persistent /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/33030727

How Well Can You Tell Your Story? 09/05/2024

How Well Can You Tell Your Story? Mark introduces the topic of self identity in the context of how people feel their story about who they are and what they do Jim chimes in with a story about the event he attended that generated our topic for today At the event they did a “speed dating” like exercise where one of the questions was “what do you do?” Cool story. Jim found that changed his answer as he learned by practicing with 40 or 50 people He identified as a podcaster and found that people were very interested in his podcasting story His other favorite question was “what is the best advice you’ve ever received?” “Water your own grass”. Grass always looks greener… Mark liked it because it makes you think Jim also found that when asked, most people were happy doing what they were doing Mark has found otherwise in his recruiting and staffing career Both guys suspect it might be circumstantial Mark talks about his perspective based on his staffing experience Mark reflects on asking yourself that question…what do you do and then says most people struggle with answering and provide little to no context Jim shares the wrinkle that everyone was on the clock. They had 5 minutes to answer…speed dating… Jim proposes that he and Mark try the exercise on themselves. Both guys struggle and have fun with the exercise. What do you do for money…or just what do you do Mark talks about being asked for a bio and the fear and confusion that request drums up Jim shares that he has begun to identify as a “podcaster”. “It’s part of who I am” Both guys agree that podcasting has made them better at everything else they do Jim talks about what he does as projects. I do projects Mark describes himself as a teacher, coach, agent Jim asks Mark what he does and Mark answers and the guys go back and forth Jim likes the word “agent” and feels that everyone needs an agent Mark says objectivity is critical in being an effective agent Jim says it also depends on who is asking the question Mark likes the speed dating concept. Time is ticking Mark begins all of his consulting with “what do you do”. He likes “what does that mean”. He tells his story about helping his girlfriends daughter Mark thinks people don’t practice their story because we think it’s our story and we can obviously tell their own story. Jim brings up the value of having an agent again Mark thinks anybody you can trust can be helpful, but Jim thinks we should stay away from friends and family Mark says it’s critical to be paying someone for advice because skin in the game makes a difference Both guys also think context is critical Mark shares his technique for crafting a good story in three parts. The long story (interview), the elevator pitch and the tag line Jim shares that he gravitated to the word “inventor”. I’m an inventor… Jim critiques Mark’s response and Mark shares the evolution of his story identity Professional development is where he arrived Jim shares his story/identity evolution Mark also likes the idea of putting people on the clock when crafting their story Jim shares the judgement he felt at the start and gained confidence as he practiced Jim makes a great point about the importance of how people introduce you to strangers. How would describe me to others? Mark loves the speed dating idea to kick off a networking event Mark recommends crafting and polishing your story for everyone He recommends shooting for clarity Jim talks about his father and his professional story. Mark does the same and talks about their generation how they were discouraged to brag about themselves Jim says we live in a different time now where everyone seems to be building a brand Mark talks about the self doubt monster pops up Mark ends with a suggestion about focusing on clarity and recording yourself Jim says get comfortable with your words and certainty. It’s not a one man job /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32927472

Friendship - We’re All Starving For Human Interaction 09/03/2024

Friendship - We’re All Starving For Human Interaction Mark introduces the topic of friendships between men and shares how it came from our friend Jeff’s annual golf outing He connects it to the wheel and the Harvard study of men which concludes that men thrive based on the number and depth of their friendships Jim appreciates the fact that we’re coming up on 60 episodes He shares his opinion of male relationships. How they change over time and how guys used to do things with only other men Jim talks about how some friendships ships die out and others go away and come back Mark brings up how his mentor and he lost touch for 2t years and recently reconnected. He says time is a challenge Mark brings up his recent meeting with one of his best friends…who hates Donald Trump Jim has a friend who feels the same way They talk about disagreement versus personal insult Mark reinforces the mission of the podcast - a place for men to talk about anything Jim says technology has isolated and divided us and we’re all starving for human interaction Jim says boys play and girls pretend and the guys talk about competition and dopamine. What happens when things come to an end Mark talks about how we all have hardships in common over time and how helpful it is to have others to talk to about the hard stuff Jim brings up alignment. Mind body and spirit calibrated…How important it is for him to start his day doing thing to calibrate and align himself Mark talks about his morning routine and reflects back on his meet up with his buddy Jim brings up the law of attraction and the “coincidence” of his mentor reentering his life Mark brings up his relationship with God Both guys reflect on their friends gold outing and how much realignment took place then Jim tells a story about a recent consulting gig client and an aligned text message exchange Mark says when you put in the work, coincidences occur We move people with energy and it can be positive or negative Mark tells a story about walking away from a friendship Jim chimes in about walking away and self awareness Mark talks more about the friendship he walked away from Jim reminds us how important it is to be around positive people Mark brings up happiness and fulfillment in the context of needing to reconnect with a couple of friends. . There is risk of disappointment. Mark shares a friend story of redemption Mark talks about how he was lacking during his divorce. Jim gives Mark credit for the self reflection Both guys agree to reconnect with 2 old friends as a challenge to everyone /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32794757

The Importance Of Tradition In A Crazy World 08/22/2024

The Importance Of Tradition In A Crazy World Mark Introduces the topic for this episode - Traditions. He contextualizes it as connected to worldview as traditions are often cultural. The guys arrived at the topic talking about Jim’s annual high school football team barbecue he holds at his house and has for 17 years in a row Jim also connects it to our childhood where our worldview begins to form Jim shares his appreciation for what the football program did for him. He thinks that without football it Very easily could have been bad - prison like his two cousins He goes on to tell the story of how it all started - an incredible story And a book called “The Season Of Life” which spoke to the issue of building men for others Tradition, continuity , belonging and creating an environment to thrive Jim talks more about how successful the program has been now that many former players have come back to coach and participate And how beneficial the whole program has been in the wider circle of people who are touched by the program Mark supports the notion of tradition and real masculinity…not toxicity. Way more than just football Jim talks about the timing and the spirit and the excitement. It brings everyone together for a common cause Mark talks about how men are shaped at an early age. Good choices or bad choices. The importance of a mentor and how difficult life is without one Jim shares his perspective of living in a 1% area and driving to the 99% area and the difference in access to resources and support. He shares his appreciation for learning how to compete Then he talks about how this competitiveness is helpful in life in general. Unity and camaraderie 50% divorce rate and how many boys grow up without a father…how important the football coach becomes in that situation Jim thinks we’ve forgotten young men and even emasculated them Mark agrees that Jim’s life could have really gone south Jim talks about how many different roles there are in making this tradition stick and then flourish He then talks about the importance of belonging to something Mark talks about pushing back on human nature and how important it is to NOT do that, particularly in regard to masculinity Jim talks about the goal of the program and shares stats on graduation rates and the trouble that creates. Kids that participate in sports graduate at much higher rates He’s preparing young men for the last whistle and the last bell. We’re not preparing them for life Mark talks about his career and coaching his own kids after high school. Then he brings up Mike Rowe and the trades Jim reflects on his high school graduation and the massive shift and void Mark shares his high school experience in contrast to Jim’s. Winning and losing is infectious/contagious Jim tells his “Nobody runs on Hayward” story Mark talks about his family tradition around military and fighter pilots Mark puts Jim’s program in perspective of how impactful it is Jim shares the two messages he delivers to the kids at the barbecue. Showing up and “no rules” no incident speech. The power of trusting and empowering back. The following morning his talk is about showing up and being prepared and “Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better”. Boys blame others, men take responsibility. Be so good they can’t ignore you. It’s not what happens to you, it’s how you respond to what happens to you Mark appreciates the work and Jim talks about how deep these relationships have grown Jim feels that the best players aren’t always the most successful. It’s the second stringers Mark thinks the more talented you are, the less likely you are to work hard Belonging, routine, structure, hierarchy and honor. If you don’t get this in one place, you’ll find it somewhere else. He mentions gangs Mark encourages listeners to seek out opportunities to help young men Jim brings up Scott Galloway and his work with young men Mark mentions example of places to go to help young men Jim recommends the progress and trust are built up over time. What you can do immediately is help the coaches. Thank them. Bring a team meal. Little gestures go a long way Mark shares his experience working with homeless kids for three years You might even get more out of the experience than the kids Jim ends with leaving the public side of this work and went off the radar Mark says your efforts need to be authentic to be effective /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32696192

How We Develop Our Self Narrative In The Context Of Regret 08/15/2024

How We Develop Our Self Narrative In The Context Of Regret Mark starts off with some context about what our podcast is all about. Sharing opinions and experiences with men to help them live a more fulfilled life He introduces the topics of self-regret and self narrative and hopes for some humorous angles Jim brings up the wheel and how we always start with self awareness He talks about the power of reading the definitions. He says if you don’t have regrets you aren’t very self aware “the most important conversation you’ll ever have is the one you have with yourself” Mark says regret and a bad narrative can eat you alive if you aren’t aware of it’s power. He says seeking blame is regressive Jim talks about learning from regrets and mistakes. It’s not what happens to you, it’s how you respond to what happens to you. I’d rather die trying than live with the regret of not trying Mark says it’s a balancing act between self awareness and misery. Your inner voice is powerful…one way or another Jim shares how he is often angry at himself and tries to be careful not protecting that on others Mark shares the work he’s doing on his own narrative around his future self and how at ease he feels. His friends have noticed Mark shares his regret about not firing his divorce attorney sooner Jim asks to break it down and offers his own story…helping someone else instead of himself Mark gives his example about multiple choice quizzes in school Mark shares how scared and angry he was during his divorce and how it clouded his judgement Jim calls it trauma - flight, fight or freeze Don’t wish it was easier, wish you were better Jim cites opportunities exist in the learning from the regret or mistake Mark shares some sports related regrets and how easy it would have been to hang on. Jim shares his opinion about sports in his life They both share the cultures they were around. Jim’s as winning and Mark’s was losing Jim talks about asking for help, not asking, asking the wrong people… Mark puts his divorce in perspective and see’s the wonderful side of it - his three kids Mark shares his formula for a solid self narrative If you want to be successful, notice your successes The guys agree that we have a hard time noticing our success Jim talks about gratitude Meditation and living in the present Mark share his morning meditation today and he was all over the place but able to come back to present Mark shares a conversation with his younger brother about his divorce regarding how well he handled it Jim quotes - All comparison leads to misery Mark talks about how comparison is in your face now all day thru social m media. You have to be careful Jim talks about being cautious about putting yourself out there on social media Nobody really wants to know how good you’re doing Mark talks about observations and assessment not what you’ve done Jim says people remember how you make them feel and Reminds us that it’s better to be kind than nice Jim tells a story about his friend regarding…has the world changed or is it the stage of life we are at. We’re running out of time and you don’t want to waste it on people with bad energy…or politics Mark agrees it’s both. What he sees missing today is accountability People are doing things wrong today and not getting in trouble Mark ends with “I don’t know waaayyy more than I know” /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32594762

Why Invest In Personal Branding? 08/08/2024

Why Invest In Personal Branding? Mark introduces the topic and explains that he and Jim will be guided in this episode by an article Jim read in Fast Company. Here’s Mark suggests personal branding begins with self reflection Jim enters with reference to the self and self promotion in specific. He shares his opinion about self promotion and how society feels very different about personal branding. Then he takes us around the flywheel and the 5 areas of life Then Jim focuses in on worldview and asks whether one’s worldview should be part of a personal brand Mark shares his views about being entrepreneurs and personal brands. He says he’s always branded himself and presented to the world his personal strengths. He tells a story about his last employer who purchased his company told him not to sell himself, but to sell her brand. He expands on his view of this Jim starts to share the main points of the article which are common myths about personal branding #1 is that it’s selfish Both guys share that they were raised not to brag and self promote If we don’t brand ourselves then we get branded by others. Mark tells his story about breaking out from imposter syndrome and his journey into branding himself #2 It’s loud and obnoxious. Mark talks about his sales journey and helping people sell themselves Jim cites the choices of being an influencer or a thought leader. Mark has chosen thought leader and shares his position on selling Jim says he’s recently committed to his own personal brand #3 It’s fake and disingenuous. Mark talks about how he was raised to be polite and respectful and being authentic #4 It’s only for senior leaders and C suite executives. Both guys agree that this is no longer the case. Mark talks about a current client and the team he is working with Jim reads a bit from the article Mark goes back to worldview and shares his opinion on sharing his politics online as part of his brand Jim shares his view of bringing politics into any conversation with someone outside his circle of friends…particularly here in Northern California Mark goes into his politics and says either way is ok if you’re prepared for the consequences. He’s decided to go all in and be transparent about his views and how he responds with what he thinks is practical The guys disagree on this issue Jim thinks it’s not worth discussing politics with those on the fringe, right or left Mark takes a different stance Mark wishes everyone, including Trump would stop calling people names..it’s childish Jim agrees and says it was funny and now it’s sad Mark doesn’t care about the person, but only what they stand for Mark talks about the power of questions and his experience speaking civily with people who are opposed to his views Mark runs around the wheel again in the context of how he begins client sessions with deep personal questions Jim identifies that Mark spent his entire career helping people grow their personal brand Jim is curious about Mark’s experience with this Mark frames it in the context of aligning the candidates worldview and the company culture Mark share his story about the prospect with the BLM LinkedIn profile banner The guys have a chuckle Mark talks about how important a LinkedIn profile is in the personal branding journey Jim asks Mark who should help you write your LinkedIn profile Mark shares his answer /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32500682

Managing Expectations In Relationships 08/05/2024

Managing Expectations In Relationships Mark introduces the topic of expectations. Setting and managing them with others We succeed and we fail doing both He says we do a poor job of being specific and clear and recalibrating as things evolve Jim says ww are “wound up” in the existing political environment. We expect the politicians to be civil and honest…and they’re not. They throw rocks at each other Mark identifies that he and Jim have taken different position. Jim chooses to remain quiet and Mark chooses to speak up. He cites the difference between thinking, knowing and emoting. We are treating them as the same Jim takes us around the wheel and our 5 areas of life and how different women and men are regarding expectations Mark talks about his relationships with his grandmothers and how different they were. Then he talks about his mom and sister Then he talks about his kids Jim shares that everyone struggles with expectations. We project things from our relationships on to others. He also thinks we have set expectations about women that they can “have it all”. It’s not possible Mark says when you choose one thing you sacrifice another. No one can “have everything”. It’s an unreal expectation Mark talks about his daughters and his mom again. His mom lived with regret and his girls struggle with confusion…what is a man? What is the expectation? He brings up JD Vance and his cat lady comment. He asks what is wrong with being a stay at home mom? We need to change our expectations about being a mom Jim brings up Esther Perel and her writings about relationships. She says our expectations about relationships are incorrect Mark talks about having different expectations inside a marriage Jim says where we are now in marriages has evolved away from the way it used to be. Married to one person and in a romantic relationship with another. Marriage was a contract Mark says expectations change and we have to change behavior. He shares some info on his marriage/divorce. He talks about his ex wife’s father and her expectations of him based on her father’s behavior Mark says things broke down when communication stopped Jim asks Mark about his current relationship with his girlfriend They talk about men and women and their differences. In a relationship what matters is what those two people think about. Most people don’t take the time to air out their differences before marriage and exchange/agree to the compromises /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32445187

The Political Football That Is Immigration 07/25/2024

The Political Football That Is Immigration Mark introduces the topic of immigration and draws a thick line between legal and illegal immigration. He’s very pro immigration and very much opposed to illegal immigration. He says there are many different lenses to look through at this issue Jim jumps in and identifies that this topic falls into worldview on our flywheel. He mentions that Europe and in particular Italy are wrestling with open borders too. It’s impacting culture and religious beliefs. Jim has seen this while traveling Mark agrees and brings up his brother who has been flying as for 35 years. He mentions Paris specifically Jim agrees and doesn’t remember Paris being like this years ago. Crime, homelessness and garbage Mark thinks we abuse the word compassion and distinguishes between those that are fleeing bad circumstances and those who are criminals Jim takes it even further and suggests that illegals are stealing our resources while legal immigrants and citizens suffer. Jim shares that California just passed a law giving free healthcare to illegals. What about us? Mark shares that Jim’s experience comes from international travel around his sports background. Mark helped many immigrants with visas and green cards during his staffing career Mark gives more context to his experience. Legal immigrants are the most opposed to illegal immigration Jim talks about his grandparents and how they strived to be American first, Mexican and Italian second. He also says that culture might come with them, but not necessarily religion. Some are escaping religious persecution Mark mentions that we all came here escaping persecution from British rule. He says crime is now increasing in non border towns and if say anything about illegal immigrant crime you’re called a racist Mark also mentions his two worst trends coming from this beyond crime. Sex trafficking and Fentanyl Jim asks to take the conversation positive and asks Mark to share his immigration experience helping immigrants who wanted to stay get visas and eventually green cards Mark goes into great detail about a program he ran helping graduates from other countries get jobs and financial assistance with their green cards after 3 years Both guys agree that these immigrants have strong appreciation for America and are n to shy about showing it Both guys agree “we don’t have a country without them” Then the guys move into a discussion about what happens when you give free stuff to illegal immigrants…or anyone for that matter Mark connects the entitlement issue with defunding police and liberal DAs..recipe for disaster Jim pulls the conversation back to positive and Mark tells the story about a new home being built right next to him and his positive interaction with the crew. All immigrants Jim brings up the Irish in the first part of the 20th century and Mark, being from Boston chimes in He brings up the notion of people (legal an d illegal) who are “well intentioned” Mark says we should figure out who is well intoned and whose not earlier in the process and then asks, if Trumps wins, how’s he gonna get the criminals out. Also how many legal immigrants can we absorb fro a resources standpoint. Then brings up the condition of the “sanctuary cities” and how over run they are now…oops Mark bring back up his experience in Boston with the Italians and Irish communities Jim suggest that kids born here of illegal parents.. What do we do with the kids. It’s a tough topic to figure out Mark says both sides need to talk, even if only about the Fentanyl and the kids Jim then tells his two immigration stories about a few people he helped and their circumstances One was a girl from Venezuela and her friend who came here illegally as a kid so he has no papers and thus cannot travel outside the country The other was about the captain of the USA Olympic rugby 7’s team who Jim helped get papers so he could leave the country He then remembers a third story helping some Tongan kids with papers who as a result couldn’t get scholarships. Both ended up playing D1 and degrees Mark says the bottom line, the system is broken and we’re not doing anything other than fighting over it Ellis Island comes up as an example of a decent system Jim notes that we’re not having enough babies and the system doesn’t work without enough people. Immigrants really help with this problem Both guys agree that both sides of the aisle seem to want to keep this a their own blunt intstrument in the political races Jim exposes the Democrat’s “immigration” bill that the Republicans didn’t sign it…it was full of Ukraine money Mark says conflict sells ads and likes. Mark ends with this is complex, but it needs to b e fixed /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32297282

Life Changing Events Through The Lens Of Personal Accountability 07/18/2024

Life Changing Events Through The Lens Of Personal Accountability Mark introduces the two topics for today and how closely they are connected Self accountability and life changing events The Trump assassination attempt and the selection of his VP running mate Mark reminds the audience of the fly wheel framework and the idea that both guys lean conservative. Mark more so than Jim Jim jumps in ands goes into more detail about the wheel and the 5 areas of life Jim identifies the Trump assassination as clearly a life changing event Jim thinks self awareness is by far the most important human trait there is. He feels like if you are self aware, it’s highly likely you’ll be happier and more fulfilled Mark describes Trump’s new attitude…calmer, less brazen. Jim agrees. Mark says the event triggered an analysis of self accountability. A complete absence of it Mark says an event of this magnitude will remain under scrutiny for a while and hopefully time and context will bring truth. The investigation is ongoing. He cites the statement by the head of the Secret Service…”the buck stops with me” Jim redirects toward the current administration and expresses his frustration with their complete lack of performance Mark suggest that the Biden admin team is now having their hypocrisy thrown back in their faces Mark cites his research of the statements of 4 or 5 special forces snipers that leads him to conclude this was one of two things…the government was in on it, or the Secret Service is broken Jim says he wants accountability for the lie that is the mental condition of Joe Biden…the years and months leading up to the shooting Mark says the depth and breadth of this deception is unique Jim talks about the debate, subsequent interviews and the cover up Even the media and others who have come out with the current truth have not acknowledged their previous lies Mark says the rats are running at each other Mark brings up JD Vance and shares some things he’s learned about him. Mark is looking forward to learning more Jim says he’s not a “Trumper”…but he thinks JD represents the best of America and stands on his merits, not his collar or gender Mark shares some more details with Jim about JD. He went to law school with Viviek R Vance is also military and business savvy Marks it seems that he’s the real deal Mark shares Elon Musk’s recent claim to be giving millions to the RNC campaign Mark shares that he’s not a Republican, he’s a pragmatist Jim shares his family’s different positions on Trump. He feels like if you put the man aside and talk policy, it’s a no brainer Jim’s looking forward to the fresh new talent and he gives Trump credit for not selecting based on skin color or gender. He also speaks about Trump’s fortitude He brings up RFK Jr and his most recent new security detail Jim ask’s Mark about his own life changing events and Marl shares a few of his…funny Little league, getting in to Notre Dame and nodding a scholarship on his dad’s behalf Then Jim shares a few of his “events”. The “I can’t” story, getting embarrassed reading in front of the class, high school football and his community college rejection Mark responds to Jim’s responses to his events and how it built his fortitude and resilience. Showing up and being prepared Marks says personal accountability leads to happiness and fulfillment..authenticity We give people second chances all the time, but people still look for blame Mark says life is a meritocracy. DEI comes up and Mark says it’s falling apart. The ex president needed to almost die for this to be exposed Jim shares his distaste for victimhood. Why do these victims choose to give their power away? He blames Biden and his cronies for this, in pursuit of power and control Mark praises Trumps response to being shot and how the choice for president is a no brainer Mark says the ships starting to turn faster Who is going to claim responsibility or get caught Jim ends with Biden being the victim. Mark says there is nothing authentic about him Think about something you can take responsibility for today…it’ll make you feel better about yourself /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32206397

Do You Have A Narcissist In Your Life? 07/11/2024

Do You Have A Narcissist In Your Life? Mark starts off setting the stage for his most recent ex-wife encounter. Both guys see numerous lessons to be learned from Mark’s encounter the other day and decided to record their conversation as an episode Mark sets the stage for the discussion by giving the event some historical context He describes his emotional state and gives a few details of the actual event - sitting in front of a judge Jim makes a great point - one of the reasons w decided to air this is that 50% of our audience will have to deal with divorce in some capacity - we thought it might be very helpful Jim starts by going around the wheel and this event touches all 5 areas and the center (self) Mark adds a timeline and additional historical context to the core event - his divorce Jim brings up narcissism and they discuss that component of Mark’s ex Mark says you can’t change people. He talks about her unwillingness to look inside He also makes the point that you have to rid yourself of people who suck energy from you and how challenging that can be Jim thinks we can’t change much except how we react to things They both bring our current political situation into the discussion because it’s directly related Mark reflects on good and bad energy and the physical manifestation of this stress Jim takes Mark around the wheel Money - how she used money as a weapon Mark shares details of what she did to his career and a story about theft Mark shares some details about his children and their struggle with anxiety. We work on it together Worldview is next. Mark talks about his connection with God and his religious journey Jim brings up Mark’s relationship with his mom, which he’s shared before Jim says we are “conditioned” when we’re young. Mark shares his thoughts on his mom and the comparison to his ex. Mark shares a story about his ex and her inability to accept responsibility for anything. If you agreed with me you immediately became her enemy Jim asks how much was “attention” Mark suggests the marriage fell apart because of her inability to accept responsibility or communicate Mark brings up his ex’s childhood - very bad Jim brings up a woman’s relationship with her own father Mark compares his ex and his current love regarding their relationships with their fathers Mark talks about self accountability and owning your life Jim brings back politics and society as it relates to Mark’s ex Jim brings our current president into the discussion. Mark says he’s not in charge. He’s not sure if Biden knows what’s going on Jim asks what audacity and is she just that Mark shares his opinion on how good marriages get through hard times They worked on themselves first Jim shares how he’s worked on himself and how he shares our framework in his daily conversations Mark shares how he never gave up and how his children helped him Mark shares his Bill Burr’s “hitting women” joke Mark starts to wrap up and shares some takeaways Internal work and modifying his routines with age to keep up the work You have to get negative people out Life is good. Everything is a choice You can’t change people Jim says gratitude is the key and it takes work Mark agrees and shares his gratitude exercise Jim bring up growing bitter or better Mark ends with his LinkedIn message story (she sent one after) and Jim notes that she was doing all the things she was accusing Mark of /episode/index/show/imperfectmensclub/id/32102172

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